Guild Wars 2

Lilith Ajit.6173:

You sure about that? please take a look at the meta… what are the best teams doing? The same thing just faster. The faster you can complete something, the better you are at playing. Unfortunately we come to this.

Your dungeon run rewards have nothing to do with how fast you complete it or how fast another completes it. That was my point.[/quote]

Tbh, the faster you can complete a dungeon, the more dungeon you can run in the same amount of time. So even the total reward is the same, the speed influence the amount of gold per hour you can get. So ya, in reality the speed influence the reward.

But i still don’t get why its a bad thing? Its faster or slower? It can’t be something else. Nobody want to push toward slower right? So faster it is.

Being able to complete stuff faster is always a nice addition to a game. Its not needed, but i don’t see a reason for that to being a bad thing.

petyr baelish.9675:

Xae Isareth.1364:

petyr baelish.9675:

Xae Isareth.1364:

In PvP, zerker isn’t so popular, because it has a constraint of the other player will whale on you, and you will just get hit sometimes, a lot even. So, the way to solve it is to make PvE more like PvP: faster attacks and better AI.

I’m using this one as an example, the core of the message (2nd paragraph and onwards) is for all of you.

I main ele, the class with the smallest health pool in the game. The only reason I can stay alive is because during the current encounters I can mitigate all damage with active defenses. If the change you suggested ever happened I would be forced to choose more defensive stats and a defensive(healing) build in order to be able to survive the encounter. Meanwhile a warrior in berzerker gear with a dps build would still be able to yolo trough it. At the moment there are still a kittenton of PUGs that only want heavies in their teams and such a change would only enforce that kind of mentality.

The beauty of gw2 lies in it’s viability. Right now you can complete every dungeon with every possible group/gear/trait/weapon setup. Not all of them are efficient but they are all viable.
Nearly all of the suggestions that are made in threads like these would destroy this viability. You people never think about the consequenses for other builds, gear choices and classes. All you want is for your special snowflake build to be highly desired in every dungeon group. Imho you guys are all a bunch of selfish pricks and this attitude needs to stop.

I have to admit that rampager stats combined with a condi dps build should be able to deal damage that is comparable with berzerker stats and a direct damage dps build, even in groups. Aside from that, the game is fine.

Do you see full zerk warriors yoloing through PvP? When you play a warrior in WvW, do you just go full zerk, 100b and facetank all the damage the other players do on you?

I tried it, unsurprisingly it didn’t work very well.

Defensive stats and abilities are something which should be factored into every consideration, not a pair of training wheels for the unskilled. MMOs diversify based on constraints, when you build for anything in any MMO, it’s a matter of pulling max DPS based in x, y, z constraints. If you want build diversity, you need x, y, z.

It’s common sense that when you make mobs that hit so hard even a warrior has to change his gear to passive defense stats in order to survive, the squishy classes will be forced into wearing PVT or cleric gear, I suppose a healer will become something mandatory as well.

There is a lot of build diversity within the dps meta, just because you deny it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. And as I said before anything is viable. I don’t see how forcing people to invest in passive defenses in order to pass a certain piece of content, regardless of skill, will improve the game in any way whatsoever.

If you don’t make something nessecary, people won’t use it. If healers arent needed for WoW, people would just run DPSs instead.

It improves the game because then you add more variables into the equation to consider. It makes buildcrafting more interesting and allows people to come up with more diverse builds.

Currently if you use anything but zerker/assasin in group PvE, you’re not optimal. That’s a joke.

VodCom.6924:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Your dungeon run rewards have nothing to do with how fast you complete it or how fast another completes it. That was my point.

You’re right, the speed of a dungoen run is not the problem. The problem is: “If you don’t have 5k AP and full berserker gear, you can’t PUG for arah”.

This is what drives some people (including me) mad.

The fundamental issue is that if I switch from zerker to valkyrie armour, the completion time increases from 30 minutes to 1hour and a half because you can’t corner stack anymore. The group is forced to do the dungeon the “classic” way which is way slower.

Thus the toxic gearcheck.

I don’t gear check or have AP requirements. So I do what I can. My requirements include communication and fashionable characters. Also most of us here who are being insulted and accused of doing these things are coordinators and mentors of one of the coolest teaching initiative for gw2 pve I’ve seen. We are not the ones you’re mad at. It’s not the berserker gear. It’s not the meta builds. It’s the lfg community that isn’t even present on this forum.

VodCom.6924:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Your dungeon run rewards have nothing to do with how fast you complete it or how fast another completes it. That was my point.

You’re right, the speed of a dungoen run is not the problem. The problem is: “If you don’t have 5k AP and full berserker gear, you can’t PUG for arah”.

This is what drives some people (including me) mad. It is very difficult to find a group for arah during my time play that does not have these requirements.

The fundamental issue is that if I switch from zerker to valkyrie armour, the completion time increases from 30 minutes to 1hour and a half because you can’t corner stack anymore. The group is forced to do the dungeon the “classic” way which is way slower.

Thus the toxic gearcheck.

I join about 2 or 3 gearcheck run in the last 2 year. There is no need to that. But anyway, ppl that put that kind of requirement are ppl like you. They have limited time to play because of work, school, kids, etc. But they are good at the game and want to complete an arah path from time to time. But they can’t have the run last 1 hour because, the path will be less enjoyable for them and this will limit the amount of stuff they can do in the game in their limited amount of time. So they ask for ppl at the same level as them (AP and gearcheck is not the best way to do that, but that,s the only way to do that). I have no problem with that. There is a lot of ppl out there just like you, that want to do arah, but don’t because they never find a group. Why? Because those group fill out quicly. They don’t stay long on the LFG so nobody can see them. Each time i put a LFG up, it fill within second. Add the fact that Arah is usually done in guild group and there you see why ppl have difficulty to enter Arah. Its the last dungeon, of course its not an easy one (especially the first times you try to go in).

VodCom.6924:

WARNING! Wall of text incoming.

About that filthy berserker meta: The race for damage is not something new. In ANY game that involves players cooperating vs an AI, in the absence of a strong trinity you WILL see a pure damage oriented meta.

WHY ? It has been said countless times -> If you haven’t to rely on others to survive, you can just go glass canon and finish content faster. This race for DPS is neither a problem in LoL (coop vs IA during lane phase only) nor in ME3 multiplayer (and you can find other games, they do not have to be MMORPGs)

WHY is it not a problem in these two games ? Because there are several efficient ways of dealing damage in these games (AD & AP in LoL; biotic or gun or tech in ME3). The meta allow DIVERSITY. Diversity of the meta is what matters here.

Back to GW2: in PvE, there is only one way to deal efficient damage -> direct damage. Condition are screwed because of the stack cap. No diversity of DPS build in GW2

Second problem about GW2:
What is the most efficient way to clear a dungeon ? LoS mob, stack them in a corner and use the cleaving melee and FGS to blast them to bitz. This is why the top 1% speed clearers are not affected by the AC spider nerf -> The spider is dead before it can spit a poison field anyway. This broken tactic is viable only with a full party of glass canon min-maxed dudes. And this has an important consequence:

Corner stacking turns a supposed challenging content in a gearcheck. Let me say this straight:
Gearcheck SUCKS

Gearcheck encourages elitism, and gold farming. Corner stacking encourages class segregation and dumb mentality. This is something some ppl in the dungeon forum do not want to recognize because they make profit out of it at the expense of others

If the gw2 dungeons were well designed, such thing should not have been possible. They made a step forward good design with fractals and aetherpath: Some bosses are designed to avoid corner stacking and actually require some skills beyond the might stacking rotation and FGS use. Gearcheck is less common in these two dungeons than in arah for this precise reason.

In the end the game relies too much on zerkers enforcing gearcheck
How to get rid of this ?
1) An alternative way to see big numbers with an alternative optimized gear (conditions damage is the prime candidate but suffers from engine limitation).
2) The end of corner-stacking though redesign of the old dungeons.

I’m gonna bump this because no one seems to be challenging it.

Xenon.4537:

Defiant needs an overhaul because it renders CC builds useless.

I think this is a big one. I would like to see a test of Defiant being tied to an individual, not just a pool of immunity to a group as it is now. If Person X just knocked down/pulled/stunned a boss then Person X can’t do any of that for 60 (or whatever is a reasonable balance) seconds. However, Person Y still has the ability to do it. If an entire party decides to blow their Defiant cooldown at the same time then the boss can’t be controlled for the next 60 seconds. If the party coordinates their control effects, however, they have a lot more opportunity for controlling the boss throughout the next minute, thus making the fight easier and rewarding coordination.

It would help with issues like the one I have a lot as a greatsword Ranger (and I can think of several other classes and skills where this comes into play). If I want to block an attack I can use GS4…but then I kick the boss and trigger a stack of Defiant and no one else can control the boss until the stack is taken off.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

VodCom.6924:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Your dungeon run rewards have nothing to do with how fast you complete it or how fast another completes it. That was my point.

You’re right, the speed of a dungoen run is not the problem. The problem is: “If you don’t have 5k AP and full berserker gear, you can’t PUG for arah”.

This is what drives some people (including me) mad.

The fundamental issue is that if I switch from zerker to valkyrie armour, the completion time increases from 30 minutes to 1hour and a half because you can’t corner stack anymore. The group is forced to do the dungeon the “classic” way which is way slower.

Thus the toxic gearcheck.

I don’t gear check or have AP requirements. So I do what I can. My requirements include communication and fashionable characters. Also most of us here who are being insulted and accused of doing these things are coordinators and mentors of one of the coolest teaching initiative for gw2 pve I’ve seen. We are not the ones you’re mad at. It’s not the berserker gear. It’s not the meta builds. It’s the lfg community that isn’t even present on this forum.

I read your post for a while now and I know you are not a gearchecker. This is why I have a profound respect for you. I will not accuse anybody in this forum because it is not the place to do it.

I have however experienced the checkers and I know a lot of people who have been spoiled as well. This is why I am concerned about this and I try to raise this issue up.

As I said, the problem is not dps race or that berserk is most efficient. It’s gearcheck and class segregation.

Eroiqua.5891:

Xenon.4537:

Defiant needs an overhaul because it renders CC builds useless.

I think this is a big one. I would like to see a test of Defiant being tied to an individual, not just a pool of immunity to a group as it is now. If Person X just knocked down/pulled/stunned a boss then Person X can’t do any of that for 60 (or whatever is a reasonable balance) seconds. However, Person Y still has the ability to do it. If an entire party decides to blow their Defiant cooldown at the same time then the boss can’t be controlled for the next 60 seconds. If the party coordinates their control effects, however, they have a lot more opportunity for controlling the boss throughout the next minute, thus making the fight easier and rewarding coordination.

It would help with issues like the one I have a lot as a greatsword Ranger (and I can think of several other classes and skills where this comes into play). If I want to block an attack I can use GS4…but then I kick the boss and trigger a stack of Defiant and no one else can control the boss until the stack is taken off.

You gotta be careful with that. If you allow it to be too strong in a fight, you’ll end up with a lot of encounters where a co-ordinated group can just pretty much faceroll it by interrupting all challenging mechanics. I’m not sure if thats something we’d want.

There’s also something else missing in Gw2. In most games, every boss encounter has attacks which the developers designed around you interrupting (like the dredge boss), GW2 has very few of them.

In PvE, there’s also very few uses for CCs in general. There’s very few cases where you have to kite an enemy or disable it, making CC something which you wouldn’t focus on anyways.

VodCom.6924:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

VodCom.6924:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Your dungeon run rewards have nothing to do with how fast you complete it or how fast another completes it. That was my point.

You’re right, the speed of a dungoen run is not the problem. The problem is: “If you don’t have 5k AP and full berserker gear, you can’t PUG for arah”.

This is what drives some people (including me) mad.

The fundamental issue is that if I switch from zerker to valkyrie armour, the completion time increases from 30 minutes to 1hour and a half because you can’t corner stack anymore. The group is forced to do the dungeon the “classic” way which is way slower.

Thus the toxic gearcheck.

I don’t gear check or have AP requirements. So I do what I can. My requirements include communication and fashionable characters. Also most of us here who are being insulted and accused of doing these things are coordinators and mentors of one of the coolest teaching initiative for gw2 pve I’ve seen. We are not the ones you’re mad at. It’s not the berserker gear. It’s not the meta builds. It’s the lfg community that isn’t even present on this forum.

I read your post for a while now and I know you are not a gearchecker. This is why I have a profound respect for you.

I have however experienced the checkers and I know a lot of people who have been spoiled as well. This is why I am concerned about this and I try to raise this issue up.

As I said, the problem is not dps race or zerker. It’s gearcheck and class segregation.

You can’t get rid of that. Elitism and segregation has existed and always will exist in MMOs. You cannot tell those people what to do (you can’t but they won’t listen), developers can’t ban them, so there’s nothing that can be done about it.

Dual.8953:

I’m gonna bump this because no one seems to be challenging it.

Boff, not much to say. I agree with the sentiment and global meaning of the post. I can see what you put in bold, and these specific stuff are not really true so just for you Dual, i’ll challenge it

1) in the absence of a strong trinity you WILL see a pure damage oriented meta.
In a trinity you have 1 healer, 1 tank and then a pure damage oriented meta. Damage is the main thing in any combat game anyway.
2)Diversity of the meta is what matters here.
Nothing wrong here. I approve 100%
3) No diversity of DPS build in GW2
Not enough diversity would be more appropriate. Support is also a big part of that diversity, but true that only direct dmg count, nothing else (or almost nothing else).
4)Gearcheck SUCKS
Gearcheck sucks. I don’t deny the other for doing it, but i never really like it. It usually take more time to fill up and a lot more time to enforce it. By the time the group is ready, i’m usually half way through the dungeon. But like i said, i’ll never try to deny ppl the possibility to gearcheck if they want. I’ll play how i want and let you play how you want.
5) In the end the game relies too much on zerkers enforcing gearcheck
I think gearcheck is very limited in this game.

No much challenging. Some specific stuff, I’m not agreeing 100%, but the global idea behind that post is pretty good.

No matter what they do to Berserker stats it will still be the “best” because it does the most damage. Since Guild Wars 2 is heavily skill based, the solution is “Get better, wear Berserker, beat dungeon faster, get more rewards, rinse, repeat”.

I recently did an analysis on the current state of combat in GW2, and berzerker gear is not the problem. It doesn’t need fixing.
My thread is probably floating somewhere on the 3rd or 4th page of this forum by now, given how fast things go here, but be warned, it’s a long read. :p

Naetell.3815:

I recently did an analysis on the current state of combat in GW2, and berzerker gear is not the problem. It doesn’t need fixing.
My thread is probably floating somewhere on the 3rd or 4th page of this forum by now, given how fast things go here, but be warned, it’s a long read. :p

Do you mind doing a TL; DR with a link to the OP :P

I wonder if the devs have tried giving bosses counter-CC skills instead of defiant. Stability and dodges are how players avoid CC in pvp. Stunbreaks too. Consider that in pvp these skills are (i think) balanced on a 1 to 1 ratio, meaning 1 player CCing 1 player is equally countered by 1 player countering 1 player’s CC (by dodging it, stunbreaking it, or using stability). This is done by meticulously adjusting durations and cooldowns of the CC skills and the counter-CC skills. In pve, what if a boss had counter-CC skills balanced at a 5 to 1 (or 1 to 5?) ratio, meaning his skills have 5x durations and/or 1/5th the cooldowns (to account for 5 players in the dungeon). This would further introduce counterplay through boon stripping the stability and baiting his stunbreaks.

Since you can’t have a team of 5 zerk builds and expect to win vs balanced, sustain, or bunker teams I would say the game isn’t too reliant on zerk builds. I would say it’s too reliant in being sustainy/bunkery

VodCom.6924:

Naetell.3815:

I recently did an analysis on the current state of combat in GW2, and berzerker gear is not the problem. It doesn’t need fixing.
My thread is probably floating somewhere on the 3rd or 4th page of this forum by now, given how fast things go here, but be warned, it’s a long read. :p

Do you mind doing a TL; DR with a link to the OP :P

Sure.

TL; DR: The game suffers from trying new things without going all the way to either side (Full action or full RPG). Added to that is the fact the stats are horribly skewed in favour of DPS stats. If they want a game with only DPS players, then they should go full action and leave out other stats entirely. If they want to be an RPG and not do the trinity, they should add more roles than 3. With the ability to switch traits (and possibly stats in future full legendary gear) whenever a player is out of combat, a player is not limited to one role to begin with. In fact, celestial would make you average at all roles at any time pre-legendary gear.

The solution to stats is to add more stats to the game, especially stats that improve CC and Support roles at the same rate DPS stats improve DPS on berzerker gear.

I think the trait system is confusing with the fact it offers both improvements to stats and abilties. Traits should focus on abilities, and gear should be the stats portion of a build. This makes it a more transparant system and gives more options for hybrid builds.

Conclusion: Most of the necessary framework is already in the game, it’s merely how we approach and use these mechanics that make the combat what it is. Simple tweaks to combat, and the AI, can change the game up dramatically.

Link:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Analysis-and-Proposals-Combat-mechanics/first#post4090389

People seems to believe that Berserker meta is about doing as much DPS as possible, it’s not exactly true, the meta is about doing as much DPS while being as useful as possible. This is why Guardian and Mesmer are still used in every dungeon run (or almost).

If I invite a guardian to my CoE run, and he’s running 0/0/6/6/2 with triple shout, I will kick him unless he’s willing to change his build. He’s not bringing reflect, his damage are negligible, his heal from AH are for himself only. He’s going to spam his Shouts to heal himself instead of using them at the right time (Retreat for Aegis, SYG for crystal).
He won’t be blinding trash mobs, he probably won’t use Greatsword pull if needed.

If crown’s pavilion taught me something lately, is that the average player is not willing to give an effort. When I’m the only one melee’ing Wiggins on 12 players, all on the ramp using nothing but auto attacks, while I have to dodge/block/tank all of Wiggins attack and also get him back when he goes to middle every 25%.

People aren’t using bad build because they like it, they use it because they don’t want to actually give an effort. (Of course this doesn’t apply to everyone)

VodCom.6924:

As I said, the problem is not dps race or that berserk is most efficient. It’s gearcheck and class segregation.

There is nothing wrong, toxic or elitist about being able to use the LFG tool to group with like minded/geared players.

Man, this is really getting old.

Why don’t you guys take up another cause? Protest AR in Fractals or something. That actually does lock people out of content entirely.

@ Trice

I’ve seen this a lot as well. For every elitist zerker jar-head, there’s a lazy “play how I want” selfish little kitten who wants to set his autoattack, tab out to check facebook, and tab back in to collect his rewards.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/To-clear-the-air-about-Berserker/first

I already made a thread about this before. The conclusions I came to are quite simple:

#1: The gear isn’t unbalanced. When comparing the survival time to damage output of different gear in the same build, something as bulky as soldiers can match zerker through sustained engagement time. Ergo, there must be another issue.
#2: Active defenses function without particular gear checks, working as a universal barrier of damage reduction.
#3: The increased kill speeds of zerker gear reduces the attacks of enemies, causing active defenses to be fully sufficient for defense.
#4: These facts are not in themselves “problems”. The problem comes from reward balancing, content balancing, and appeal to different gamers via multiple playstyles.

Because of this, I have to let out a big, angry eyed sigh every time someone suggests some draconian changes that make it so dodge doesn’t work anymore. That’s not fixing the problem, that’s just bashing it with a mallet until the thing is unrecognizable, and then belching “what problem!?” to critics.

The unfortunate thing is that the best solution to this problem, to make PVE harder in such a way that it discriminates more against glass cannons than other gear types. This has its own problems, namely that increased difficulty can drive away players, and people already have low expectations for the game, and that the PVE game currently doesn’t teach players how anything works.

It would also be really difficult to do, so it is not a perfect solution. But, the good news is, a lot of those problems are temporary.

Fenrir.3609:

VodCom.6924:

As I said, the problem is not dps race or that berserk is most efficient. It’s gearcheck and class segregation.

There is nothing wrong, toxic or elitist about being able to use the LFG tool to group with like minded/geared players.

Here is what puzzles me : the ratio of toxic vs “non speed clear” is surprizing for the lfg tool. You sure can use the lfg to find like minded ppl, that’s why there is one in the first place. However, if you look at the announcements, there are lots of high requirement groups vs “come as you are”. Correct with exposition time and sampling etc…

Edit : statement valid for arah. AC has path sellers but they make money out of teaching how to solo the dungoen, which I have no problem with. Dredge P1 as a similar problem.

Incorrect. What actually happens is the no-requirement groups fill a lot quicker, while the berserker only ones take a lot longer to fill so they’re the only ones you see on the LFG. One time I did a full Arah p2 solo, exited the instance and there was this same guy still looking for a group.

The problem isn’t “zerker’s”, the problem is that GW2 dungeons didn’t came out as expected.

In order to stop using “zerker” gear Anet needs to implement new and improved dungeon system’s, no need to make new dungeons, just innovate the ones that we already have.

I guess that the development team needs to think outside the box in this aspects. Maybe they need to reach the “trinity” line but not cross it or, for an example, do something like this:
- Boss react’s to the party stat’s ( i think that’s already implemented but not sure ), if “zerker” gear is in the five party member’s than the boss will be tougher, hit harder and take more time to finish.

But this will be contradictory to the “play how you want it” (not entirely true, but that’s for other post’s) and in time someone will master that system and break it with that same “zerker” armor or with other stat’s and then maybe the new discussion theme will be about that different stat’s armor and we will come here and try to have these brainstorm sessions.

I do not use “zerker” gear in any of my character’s. I find more fun using a mix of healing power/crit dmg on my Guardian, in this way i can still hit hard and have enough survivability to save some, not all, of my “zerker” friends =).

VodCom.6924:

Here is what puzzles me : the ratio of toxic vs “non speed clear” is surprizing for the lfg tool. You sure can use the lfg to find like minded ppl, that’s why there is one in the first place. However, if you look at the announcements, there are lots of high requirement groups vs “come as you are”. Correct with exposition time and sampling etc…

Here’s a couple of hypotheses about that. I’d not be surprised if both apply, at least in some cases.

• More people want a “relaxed” group than want an “efficiency” group. When “relaxed” groups are advertised, they fill almost immediately, whereas the “efficiency” groups wait longer. This creates the perception that at any given snap-shot of the LFG, there are more efficiency groups.
• Starting a group requires initiative. There is some expectation that the player who starts the group is the “leader.” Leading requires assuming some responsibility to know the dungeon and maybe communicate with the other players. People who’ve studied the dungeon will tend to be more comfortable with that responsibility. I know that’s the case for me, and I would be surprised if I were alone. However, at least some of the players who’ve learned the dungeons are the ones starting or wanting into efficiency groups. Ergo it’s possible that at least some of the players who want “relaxed” groups are reluctant to start them.

VodCom.6924:

Fenrir.3609:

VodCom.6924:

As I said, the problem is not dps race or that berserk is most efficient. It’s gearcheck and class segregation.

There is nothing wrong, toxic or elitist about being able to use the LFG tool to group with like minded/geared players.

Here is what puzzles me : elitism and stupidity is found everywhere. Yet, if one examinates the lfg window, most of the toxic players gravitate toward arah. Of course one should correct with the exposition time find a good sample etc… If everything was, fine, toxicity should be evenly spread. That is not the case.

Long story short, I believe toxicity is concentrated around very few places in the game (endgame dungeons). That leads me to think there is a problem here.

The thing about Arah is that if you get a poor group and you aren’t prepared for how bad It will be, the 3 to 4 hours running a single path is absolutely soul crushing. I’ve encountered this before, but now I only run it with Maha (Colesy) Dub, and other forum regulars. Pugging it means… I’m going to be on so long my hubby will get mad. So I don’t.

Point is…. if you have a group you are confident with (because of gear, or other things), you don’t have that worry that “this run is going to take me ALL night”. And that’s really only true for arah.

jackson.4256:

cof p1 7min vs cof p1 30min, which one will you choose?

More like CoF p1 7min (plus 10min to arrange an acceptable zerker only 10k AP, ping gear group) vs CoF p1 15min (no wait)….

It really is that stupid lol.

phys.7689:

Many people talk about this, but the key is not really to nerf zerker,
all you are doing by nerfing zerker is making zerker more of a high skill cap weapon set, it will still be superior.

two major ways to deal with the idea that dps is the only thing that matters
1) more skills need to scale off other stats, including defensive and support skills (a berserker is just about the same at every non condition dmg skill as any other gear set, and close enough for pve at durations.
2) better enemy design and encounter design.
enemies need to have more attacks for less damage, and be more mobile/adaptive

any number tweaks will simply make it so its still the best, but you have to be really good to make good use of it.

I think your idea is brilliant.
Some classes should scale their damage base on other attributes that favor its play-style.

For example, a guardian may scale its attack power base on his healing power and power, that power contributes 2/3 and healing contributes 1/3.
I know this will make the stat distribution more complicated, but that’s one of the few ways to balance out things.
(And for anyone who’ll argue that healing power could potential become OP because it does 2 things now, you can mostly choose from 3 main stats, so if you go for power and healing, you’ll then sacrifice either precision or ferocity, thus, losing slight damage. However, choosing healing will give you damage AND healing capability, making it a more supportive play-style while not losing too much damage.)

Aomine.5012:

phys.7689:

Many people talk about this, but the key is not really to nerf zerker,
all you are doing by nerfing zerker is making zerker more of a high skill cap weapon set, it will still be superior.

two major ways to deal with the idea that dps is the only thing that matters
1) more skills need to scale off other stats, including defensive and support skills (a berserker is just about the same at every non condition dmg skill as any other gear set, and close enough for pve at durations.
2) better enemy design and encounter design.
enemies need to have more attacks for less damage, and be more mobile/adaptive

any number tweaks will simply make it so its still the best, but you have to be really good to make good use of it.

I think your idea is brilliant.
Some classes should scale their damage base on other attributes that favor its play-style.

For example, a guardian may scale it’s attack power base on his healing power and power, that each of them contribute to half of it’s dps.
I know this will make the stat distribution more complicated, but that’s one of the few ways to balance out things.
(And for anyone who’ll argue that healing power could potential become OP because it does 2 things now, you can mostly choose from 3 main stats, so if you go for power and healing, you’ll then sacrifice either precision or ferocity, thus, losing slight damage. However, choosing healing will give you damage AND healing capability, making it a more supportive play-style while not losing too much damage.)

Exactly this.

But it definitely takes the most effort from dev team since it will completely change the game meta.

VodCom.6924:

Here is what puzzles me : the ratio of toxic vs “non speed clear” is surprizing for the lfg tool. You sure can use the lfg to find like minded ppl, that’s why there is one in the first place. However, if you look at the announcements, there are lots of high requirement groups vs “come as you are”. Correct with exposition time and sampling etc…

The reason you see a lot of “zerk experienced!” groups on the LFG tool is because they linger there due to taking longer to fill. In the mean time countless non zerk, non req groups are getting filled and running the dungeons.

I’d like to again point out you are using the word “toxic” for no real reason. Using the LFG tool to look to group with other like minded/like set up players is not “toxic”, at all.

Edit : statement valid for arah. AC has path sellers but they make money out of teaching how to solo the dungoen, which I have no problem with. Dredge P1 as a similar problem.

For Arah and one or two other instances, the case is somewhat different. But this is not a zerk issue, it is purely down to the timeframes involved. Few experienced players are going to want to spend x hours running one of these dungeon paths with a bunch of non optimal, non experienced players.

Exciton.8942:

I think your idea is brilliant.
Some classes should scale their damage base on other attributes that favor its play-style.

For example, a guardian may scale it’s attack power base on his healing power and power, that each of them contribute to half of it’s dps.
I know this will make the stat distribution more complicated, but that’s one of the few ways to balance out things.
(And for anyone who’ll argue that healing power could potential become OP because it does 2 things now, you can mostly choose from 3 main stats, so if you go for power and healing, you’ll then sacrifice either precision or ferocity, thus, losing slight damage. However, choosing healing will give you damage AND healing capability, making it a more supportive play-style while not losing too much damage.)

Exactly this.

But it definitely takes the most effort from dev team since it will completely change the game meta.

So you see a base decrease in damage to glass cannon sets with no increase in defense and an increase in damage to tank sets with no decrease in defense. That is a truly awful idea.

Btw, “favor it’s playstyle”? I wasn’t aware I was supposed to be playing guardian as some kind of tanky heal spammer who stacks toughness and heal pot.

Aomine.5012:

phys.7689:

Many people talk about this, but the key is not really to nerf zerker,
all you are doing by nerfing zerker is making zerker more of a high skill cap weapon set, it will still be superior.

two major ways to deal with the idea that dps is the only thing that matters
1) more skills need to scale off other stats, including defensive and support skills (a berserker is just about the same at every non condition dmg skill as any other gear set, and close enough for pve at durations.
2) better enemy design and encounter design.
enemies need to have more attacks for less damage, and be more mobile/adaptive

any number tweaks will simply make it so its still the best, but you have to be really good to make good use of it.

I think your idea is brilliant.
Some classes should scale their damage base on other attributes that favor its play-style.

For example, a guardian may scale it’s attack power base on his healing power and power, that each of them contribute to half of it’s dps.
I know this will make the stat distribution more complicated, but that’s one of the few ways to balance out things.
(And for anyone who’ll argue that healing power could potential become OP because it does 2 things now, you can mostly choose from 3 main stats, so if you go for power and healing, you’ll then sacrifice either precision or ferocity, thus, losing slight damage. However, choosing healing will give you damage AND healing capability, making it a more supportive play-style while not losing too much damage.)

I totally disagree with that. I found that completely stupid in SWTOR and I think this would completely crush the identity of GW2.

You guys talk about its bad, its only zerker dude bah. But then you turn around and said, well Guardian = healing power. How this will give more diversity in gear? Each stats should give 1 advantage and only 1. If a stats is useless change the stats and what you can get from it, just don’t make him just another power with some healing in it.

Fenrir.3609:

Exciton.8942:

I think your idea is brilliant.
Some classes should scale their damage base on other attributes that favor its play-style.

For example, a guardian may scale it’s attack power base on his healing power and power, that each of them contribute to half of it’s dps.
I know this will make the stat distribution more complicated, but that’s one of the few ways to balance out things.
(And for anyone who’ll argue that healing power could potential become OP because it does 2 things now, you can mostly choose from 3 main stats, so if you go for power and healing, you’ll then sacrifice either precision or ferocity, thus, losing slight damage. However, choosing healing will give you damage AND healing capability, making it a more supportive play-style while not losing too much damage.)

Exactly this.

But it definitely takes the most effort from dev team since it will completely change the game meta.

So you see a base decrease in damage to glass cannon sets with no increase in defense and an increase in damage to tank sets with no decrease in defense. That is a truly awful idea.

Btw, “favor it’s playstyle”? I wasn’t aware I was supposed to be playing guardian as some kind of tanky heal spammer who stacks toughness and heal pot.

Ok let’s find an easy way out then.
Make all bosses have constant retaliation base on the percentage of the damage you dealt to him. End of story. No messy and stuff that turns the balance up-side-down.

Oh, to make other stats more useful, toughness will decrease the retaliation damage, and condition damage will not take the retaliation. (Making Cond a safer option to dps down the boss)

Happy now?

Yes, zerker is still the predominant stat allocation. But that’s not because of skill coefficients or antyhing. It’s because GW2’s PvE mechanics promote damage-above-all-else gameplay. True support builds, heals, conditions…not as effective as power builds. Some coefficients could be tweaked I’m sure, but the primary issue is the way bosses & fights are designed.

Condition caps, slow attacking massive hits, corner stacking, Defiant, etc. What’s needed are bosses and PvE fights in general with AI more similar to actual player/WvW fights. A boss that doesn’t hit for 8,000 or doesn’t drop 15 aoe circles per attack but rather uses skills like cleanses, stun breaks, high mobility, quick attacks, bursts, sustain, dodges, and defense would be much more inviting and entertaining.

The best fight in GW1 was the Doppleganger fight in the Crystal Desert because it hit just as hard and frequently as you would. Used the same defensive skills, the same mobility, etc.

Seras.5702:

Yes, zerker is still the predominant stat allocation. But that’s not because of skill coefficients or antyhing. It’s because GW2’s PvE mechanics promote damage-above-all-else gameplay. True support builds, heals, conditions…not as effective as power builds. Some coefficients could be tweaked I’m sure, but the primary issue is the way bosses & fights are designed.

That’s not a GW2-specific thing, that’s something which applies to all MMOs. Healers and tanks are only a thing because fight mechanics needed them. No one wants a ‘full support’ build if everyone can stay alive perfectly well already and that support didn’t take the form of more damage in any game.

It’s just that GW2 doesn’t have any constraints which needs you to do anything else other than take zerker stats.

90% of the LFG’s is still “LF ZERKERS ONLY!”
But if you find yourself a group of normal people , its way more fun to play, but hey takes longer.

It never did rely on that stuff. There’s a group of speedrunners who rely on it for timed runs, which has nothing to do with the game or its rewards. Also, there’s a group of misguided pugs who think waiting a half hour longer for the ideal party to run a dungeon five minutes faster is somehow more efficient than picking the first five people willing to go.

Just find a group of like-minded people to play with and you’re fine.

Aomine.5012:

Ok let’s find an easy way out then.
Make all bosses have constant retaliation base on the percentage of the damage you dealt to him. End of story. No messy and stuff that turns the balance up-side-down.

Oh, to make other stats more useful, toughness will decrease the retaliation damage, and condition damage will not take the retaliation. (Making Cond a safer option to dps down the boss)

Happy now?

Why would I be happy with totally unnecessary changes? Although I do applaud your efforts to come up with solutions, even though I don’t see the need for or point in them.

Other stats are extremely useful btw, the trouble is some people seem to think that their facetank should be part of a highly niche speedrun meta. When the reality of the situation is, there is absolutely zero justification for them to be part of said meta.

Fenrir.3609:

Aomine.5012:

Ok let’s find an easy way out then.
Make all bosses have constant retaliation base on the percentage of the damage you dealt to him. End of story. No messy and stuff that turns the balance up-side-down.

Oh, to make other stats more useful, toughness will decrease the retaliation damage, and condition damage will not take the retaliation. (Making Cond a safer option to dps down the boss)

Happy now?

Why would I be happy with totally unnecessary changes? Although I do applaud your efforts to come up with solutions, even though I don’t see the need for or point in them.

Other stats are extremely useful btw, the trouble is some people seem to think that their facetank should be part of a highly niche speedrun meta. When the reality of the situation is, there is absolutely zero justification for them to be part of said meta.

But hey! People are complaining about contents being too easy that zerker can do everything that a non-zerker can do (survive, give support like others), while hitting way more damage.

So introducing this “hardcapped” mechanic that does not favor zerker too much is a fair trade-off right? Or suddenly you guys regret saying the fault is because mechanic and contents being too easy ? Tbh, not too many people like hard contents, so “fixing” the encounter may not be the best idea.

Also I fixed my original post of power healing distribution and make it fair to power build. (2/3 power, 1/3 healing). Also I pick healing as an example because it is one of the most unlikable stats in PVE. (And probably for good reasons)

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

And how exactly is zerker interfering with CC?

One is a gear set. The other is a type of skill that is used to knock down or knock back or do mean stuff to a boss or enemy.

How does zerker work against CC?

I’m really sad when I see misinformed posts like this. People (like yourself) actually believe that zerker is the root of all problems in this game. However the truth is different.
A full zerker player can still CC to the best of his/her ability.
Defiant is the reason that CC is not used / not required / not viable.

And you shouldn’t forget that a full zerker player can still support his team through:
boon sharing
res mechanics
reflects
heals

In fact -the only thing a zerk player will do worse as a support than a full Cleric’s is maybe less healing and less boon uptime.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

maha.7902:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

support is already extremely desirable. CC has niche uses but when used, it can be used very effectively. what is the problem here?

support is only ‘extremely desirable’ in that you can provide it adequately while still running zerkers. that’s not precisely what im talking about.

one of the main issues with zerkers being the king of all sets is simply due to the fact that you can max your dps while still fulfilling the needs for support and cc without specing for it. thats not precisely how it should work, and what causes the majority of the issue at hand. in instances where you need support, you should need someone that is specced that way, or at least a couple of hybrids. the roles are not balanced in their need of having someone specced for it.

you can see it most obviously in dungeon runs. most groups want that person in zerker gear who can provide the better dps, but can still offer reflects or protection or w/e adequately. they are going to take that person over someone in anything else because the support that person offers is sufficient.

You seemed to ignore these things earlier, nice to see you’ve posted it now.

Fun fact :

GW2 went away from the traditional MMO trinity because they didn’t want people needing a certain type of player ( tank / healer) in order to complete content.

That’s why we don’t have tanks and healers.

If you’re asking that the game is changed so that a player that would provide support for example through reflects would have to be geared and specced towards that specific role you’ve successfully taken all the core philosophy of GW2 and thrown it out the window.

LFG groups would be full of – 4/5 need reflecter to go. Or 4/5 need might buffer to start.

How is that still fulfilling the initial vision of player being able to bring anything they want and still being viable? It doesn’t.

So you’re basically asking GW2 to turn its back on its initial core design and go back to a trinity of sorts. Where people spec towards a role and that role is required.

Right now no role is required in almost 99% of the content which is * a good thing*. Why change that? Because a few players can’t enjoy the “superstar” status they had in WoW?

Offense Wins Games

Harper.4173:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

maha.7902:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

support is already extremely desirable. CC has niche uses but when used, it can be used very effectively. what is the problem here?

support is only ‘extremely desirable’ in that you can provide it adequately while still running zerkers. that’s not precisely what im talking about.

one of the main issues with zerkers being the king of all sets is simply due to the fact that you can max your dps while still fulfilling the needs for support and cc without specing for it. thats not precisely how it should work, and what causes the majority of the issue at hand. in instances where you need support, you should need someone that is specced that way, or at least a couple of hybrids. the roles are not balanced in their need of having someone specced for it.

you can see it most obviously in dungeon runs. most groups want that person in zerker gear who can provide the better dps, but can still offer reflects or protection or w/e adequately. they are going to take that person over someone in anything else because the support that person offers is sufficient.

You seemed to ignore these things earlier, nice to see you’ve posted it now.

Fun fact :

GW2 went away from the traditional MMO trinity because they didn’t want people needing a certain type of player ( tank / healer) in order to complete content.

That’s why we don’t have tanks and healers.

…

Right now no role is required in almost 99% of the content which is * a good thing*. Why change that? Because a few players can’t enjoy the “superstar” status they had in WoW?

That’s exactly it. “No role is required in almost 99% of the contents”
That’s why zerker is the way to go for most people because if ANY SETS can complete 99% of the contents, why not choose the one that can complete it faster and safer? (Yes, killing boss fast is much safer than killing boss slow)

There’s no-way to fix this issue unless Anet start introducing mechanic that force you into certain roles (making the content “harder” that is) in order to succeed.

For example:
Enemies like Husk in triple trouble should infest all around the world or dungeons so people need condition specs more to succeed.
Some bosses need to reflect lots of damage to players so they need more healing to keep on damaging bosses.
Some bosses need to constantly chip a certain percent of HP from players no end, so healing will play a very important role to succeed the encounter.
Some bosses will periodically throw a lazor attack that hit for the whole screen, which is undodgeble, unblockable, and no-way to cancel its damage, so the only way to survive is to make your toughness and vitality high.

But hey! People hate hard contents!
So let’s roll back to our zerker Meta

Thaddeus.4891:

Aomine.5012:

phys.7689:

Many people talk about this, but the key is not really to nerf zerker,
all you are doing by nerfing zerker is making zerker more of a high skill cap weapon set, it will still be superior.

two major ways to deal with the idea that dps is the only thing that matters
1) more skills need to scale off other stats, including defensive and support skills (a berserker is just about the same at every non condition dmg skill as any other gear set, and close enough for pve at durations.
2) better enemy design and encounter design.
enemies need to have more attacks for less damage, and be more mobile/adaptive

any number tweaks will simply make it so its still the best, but you have to be really good to make good use of it.

I think your idea is brilliant.
Some classes should scale their damage base on other attributes that favor its play-style.

For example, a guardian may scale it’s attack power base on his healing power and power, that each of them contribute to half of it’s dps.
I know this will make the stat distribution more complicated, but that’s one of the few ways to balance out things.
(And for anyone who’ll argue that healing power could potential become OP because it does 2 things now, you can mostly choose from 3 main stats, so if you go for power and healing, you’ll then sacrifice either precision or ferocity, thus, losing slight damage. However, choosing healing will give you damage AND healing capability, making it a more supportive play-style while not losing too much damage.)

I totally disagree with that. I found that completely stupid in SWTOR and I think this would completely crush the identity of GW2.

You guys talk about its bad, its only zerker dude bah. But then you turn around and said, well Guardian = healing power. How this will give more diversity in gear? Each stats should give 1 advantage and only 1. If a stats is useless change the stats and what you can get from it, just don’t make him just another power with some healing in it.

just to be clear, i wasnt saying something like toughness should directly effect dmg, i am saying certain skills that correlate to playstyles could effect specific skills.
for example, if toughness might effect your defeneive skills, like how much dmg you could absorb with certain blocks, or how long they last.

the biggest problem with the stat system, is most stats dont effect the playstyle enough. its a no brainer to pick dps stats, when nothing effects any other skill.
you still block with zero toughness, your endure pain lasts just as long, your support skills do the same bonus.

think something closer to (but not exactly like) gw1.

long story short, as long as i have virtually the same active defense, support and CC (the 3 chosen roles) with a berserker set up, there is not much reason to pick a different stat spread, when played well.

Aomine.5012:

Harper.4173:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

maha.7902:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

support is already extremely desirable. CC has niche uses but when used, it can be used very effectively. what is the problem here?

support is only ‘extremely desirable’ in that you can provide it adequately while still running zerkers. that’s not precisely what im talking about.

one of the main issues with zerkers being the king of all sets is simply due to the fact that you can max your dps while still fulfilling the needs for support and cc without specing for it. thats not precisely how it should work, and what causes the majority of the issue at hand. in instances where you need support, you should need someone that is specced that way, or at least a couple of hybrids. the roles are not balanced in their need of having someone specced for it.

you can see it most obviously in dungeon runs. most groups want that person in zerker gear who can provide the better dps, but can still offer reflects or protection or w/e adequately. they are going to take that person over someone in anything else because the support that person offers is sufficient.

You seemed to ignore these things earlier, nice to see you’ve posted it now.

Fun fact :

GW2 went away from the traditional MMO trinity because they didn’t want people needing a certain type of player ( tank / healer) in order to complete content.

That’s why we don’t have tanks and healers.

…

Right now no role is required in almost 99% of the content which is * a good thing*. Why change that? Because a few players can’t enjoy the “superstar” status they had in WoW?

That’s exactly it. “No role is required in almost 99% of the contents”
That’s why zerker is the way to go for most people because if ANY SETS can complete 99% of the contents, why not choose the one that can complete it faster and safer? (Yes, killing boss fast is much safer than killing boss slow)

There’s no-way to fix this issue unless Anet start introducing mechanic that force you into certain roles (making the content “harder” that is) in order to succeed.

For example, enemies like Husk in triple trouble should infest all around the world or dungeons so people need condition specs more to succeed.
Some bosses need to reflect lots of damage to players so they need more healing to keep on damaging bosses.
Some bosses need to constantly chip a certain percent of HP from players no end, so healing will play a very important role to succeed the encounter.

But hey! People hate hard contents!
So let’s roll back to our zerker Meta

People don’t hate hard content – that’s false.

People hate hard and unrewarding content.
People don’t repeat hard content if it’s not worth it.
People hate being forced to play harder content when previously it was easier.

Hard mode for dungeons would be a good thing if it was implemented together with new titles, maybe unique skins and better loot.

People who would want the challenge and the thrill could do it. Pugs could still do regular dungeons.

But if you change all content to satisfy the few that want it hard you’re going to turn the game into a ghost town.

One of the most heard complaints at the start of this game was that it was too hard to farm gold. People, and a lot of them quit because they couldn’t get good enough rewards in a time frame that would keep them satisfied.

Harper.4173:

Aomine.5012:

Harper.4173:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

maha.7902:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

support is already extremely desirable. CC has niche uses but when used, it can be used very effectively. what is the problem here?

support is only ‘extremely desirable’ in that you can provide it adequately while still running zerkers. that’s not precisely what im talking about.

one of the main issues with zerkers being the king of all sets is simply due to the fact that you can max your dps while still fulfilling the needs for support and cc without specing for it. thats not precisely how it should work, and what causes the majority of the issue at hand. in instances where you need support, you should need someone that is specced that way, or at least a couple of hybrids. the roles are not balanced in their need of having someone specced for it.

you can see it most obviously in dungeon runs. most groups want that person in zerker gear who can provide the better dps, but can still offer reflects or protection or w/e adequately. they are going to take that person over someone in anything else because the support that person offers is sufficient.

You seemed to ignore these things earlier, nice to see you’ve posted it now.

Fun fact :

GW2 went away from the traditional MMO trinity because they didn’t want people needing a certain type of player ( tank / healer) in order to complete content.

That’s why we don’t have tanks and healers.

…

Right now no role is required in almost 99% of the content which is * a good thing*. Why change that? Because a few players can’t enjoy the “superstar” status they had in WoW?

That’s exactly it. “No role is required in almost 99% of the contents”
That’s why zerker is the way to go for most people because if ANY SETS can complete 99% of the contents, why not choose the one that can complete it faster and safer? (Yes, killing boss fast is much safer than killing boss slow)

There’s no-way to fix this issue unless Anet start introducing mechanic that force you into certain roles (making the content “harder” that is) in order to succeed.

For example, enemies like Husk in triple trouble should infest all around the world or dungeons so people need condition specs more to succeed.
Some bosses need to reflect lots of damage to players so they need more healing to keep on damaging bosses.
Some bosses need to constantly chip a certain percent of HP from players no end, so healing will play a very important role to succeed the encounter.

But hey! People hate hard contents!
So let’s roll back to our zerker Meta

People don’t hate hard content – that’s false.

People hate hard and unrewarding content.
People don’t repeat hard content if it’s not worth it.
People hate being forced to play harder content when previously it was easier.

Hard mode for dungeons would be a good thing if it was implemented together with new titles, maybe unique skins and better loot.

People who would want the challenge and the thrill could do it. Pugs could still do regular dungeons.

But if you change all content to satisfy the few that want it hard you’re going to turn the game into a ghost town.

One of the most heard complaints at the start of this game was that it was too hard to farm gold. People, and a lot of them quit because they couldn’t get good enough rewards in a time frame that would keep them satisfied.

i dont think people quit because it was hard to farm gold, they quit because the game was not rewarding, and the few goals they had were grindy.

What i mean by this is they want to be able to feel like they are achieving something through play, but not neccesarily that they want gold. Many of these people wanted raids, and i think its not really because raid gameplay is awesome, but because you have this set of goals to work towards, and you feel like you are making progress by playing. You feel rewarded, even if you dont get much gold, you get the reward of moving to new interesting things.

phys.7689:

Harper.4173:

i dont think people quit because it was hard to farm gold, they quit because the game was not rewarding, and the few goals they had were grindy.

What i mean by this is they want to be able to feel like they are achieving something through play, but not neccesarily that they want gold. Many of these people wanted raids, and i think its not really because raid gameplay is awesome, but because you have this set of goals to work towards, and you feel like you are making progress by playing. You feel rewarded, even if you dont get much gold, you get the reward of moving to new interesting things.

Let me put your words into simple terms:
People want “vertical progression, the sense of being stronger with each accomplishment.”
Clearly GW2 doesn’t suit them so I don’t blame them for leaving, nor do I miss them.
Sadly the company does care about those people because they need money

Aomine.5012:

Harper.4173:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

maha.7902:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’m in agreement with others that simply nerfing berserker gear is not the answer. I don’t agree that the change to ferocity ‘did nothing’ or is ‘useless’ though. It was simply the first step in a long list of things that needed to be done in order to balance the various available roles to make support and cc more desirable.

I think we’re starting to see some of the further changes, although I don’t think their implementations are perfect. The amount of things no longer reflect able might require a bit of tweaking, for example.

support is already extremely desirable. CC has niche uses but when used, it can be used very effectively. what is the problem here?

support is only ‘extremely desirable’ in that you can provide it adequately while still running zerkers. that’s not precisely what im talking about.

one of the main issues with zerkers being the king of all sets is simply due to the fact that you can max your dps while still fulfilling the needs for support and cc without specing for it. thats not precisely how it should work, and what causes the majority of the issue at hand. in instances where you need support, you should need someone that is specced that way, or at least a couple of hybrids. the roles are not balanced in their need of having someone specced for it.

you can see it most obviously in dungeon runs. most groups want that person in zerker gear who can provide the better dps, but can still offer reflects or protection or w/e adequately. they are going to take that person over someone in anything else because the support that person offers is sufficient.

You seemed to ignore these things earlier, nice to see you’ve posted it now.

Fun fact :

GW2 went away from the traditional MMO trinity because they didn’t want people needing a certain type of player ( tank / healer) in order to complete content.

That’s why we don’t have tanks and healers.

…

Right now no role is required in almost 99% of the content which is * a good thing*. Why change that? Because a few players can’t enjoy the “superstar” status they had in WoW?

That’s exactly it. “No role is required in almost 99% of the contents”
That’s why zerker is the way to go for most people because if ANY SETS can complete 99% of the contents, why not choose the one that can complete it faster and safer? (Yes, killing boss fast is much safer than killing boss slow)

There’s no-way to fix this issue unless Anet start introducing mechanic that force you into certain roles (making the content “harder” that is) in order to succeed.

For example:
Enemies like Husk in triple trouble should infest all around the world or dungeons so people need condition specs more to succeed.
Some bosses need to reflect lots of damage to players so they need more healing to keep on damaging bosses.
Some bosses need to constantly chip a certain percent of HP from players no end, so healing will play a very important role to succeed the encounter.
Some bosses will periodically throw a lazor attack that hit for the whole screen, which is undodgeble, unblockable, and no-way to cancel its damage, so the only way to survive is to make your toughness and vitality high.

But hey! People hate hard contents!
So let’s roll back to our zerker Meta

How is that harder? That’s a gear check. The way content is designed now you can do it any way you want including whatever non-meta build you have. Everybody gets what they want as long as they’re willing to play with people who have similar mindsets.

Do you really think that if they introduced gear check encounters that it wouldn’t be the same people who value efficiency just carrying whatever minimum amount of X required to finish the encounter, speccing the rest into DPS, and checking to see that the people they were running with were doing the same because now they actually have to in order to finish the content in the first place?

Surprise: The way wurm works now is that you bring around 1/8 of your players to take care of husks and guess what? Everybody else specs DPS.

If you want gear checks and trinities, this isn’t your game. Your issue with berserker isn’t that it violates any game design axioms, it violates your personal sensibilities so you’d rather force a playstyle onto everyone.

Aomine.5012:

But hey! People are complaining about contents being too easy that zerker can do everything that a non-zerker can do (survive, give support like others), while hitting way more damage.

So introducing this “hardcapped” mechanic that does not favor zerker too much is a fair trade-off right? Or suddenly you guys regret saying the fault is because mechanic and contents being too easy ? Tbh, not too many people like hard contents, so “fixing” the encounter may not be the best idea.

Also I fixed my original post of power healing distribution and make it fair to power build. (2/3 power, 1/3 healing). Also I pick healing as an example because it is one of the most unlikable stats in PVE. (And probably for good reasons)

None of that makes sense as a response to my post. You suggested changes to buff tanks and nerf zerk, I stated that said changes are unwarranted and now you are going on about difficulty?

You think throwing in loads of ret and buffing tank damage makes content harder, really?

Now I’m all for difficulty and enjoy soloing/trying to solo dungeons and fractals but two things occur here. First your original ideas (the ones I commented on) are bad ways of trying to achieve “harder” content. Secondly, you seem to be using “make it harder” as an excuse for basically, just trying to shaft zerk users and get some kind of hard trinity in the game.

Fenrir.3609:

Aomine.5012:

But hey! People are complaining about contents being too easy that zerker can do everything that a non-zerker can do (survive, give support like others), while hitting way more damage.

So introducing this “hardcapped” mechanic that does not favor zerker too much is a fair trade-off right? Or suddenly you guys regret saying the fault is because mechanic and contents being too easy ? Tbh, not too many people like hard contents, so “fixing” the encounter may not be the best idea.

Also I fixed my original post of power healing distribution and make it fair to power build. (2/3 power, 1/3 healing). Also I pick healing as an example because it is one of the most unlikable stats in PVE. (And probably for good reasons)

None of that makes sense as a response to my post. You suggested changes to buff tanks and nerf zerk, I stated that said changes are unwarranted and now you are going on about difficulty?

You think throwing in loads of ret and buffing tank damage makes content harder, really?

Now I’m all for difficulty and enjoy soloing/trying to solo dungeons and fractals but two things occur here. First your original ideas (the ones I commented on) are bad ways of trying to achieve “harder” content. Secondly, you seem to be using “make it harder” as an excuse for basically, just trying to shaft zerk users and get some kind of hard trinity in the game.

Not like you give any other alternative.
All you do is pointing out the flaws, and how the problem exist, but you never provide any concrete idea of how to solve it.
How about enlighten us how should it be done? I’m all ears

You want diversity yet you want to make content easy enough for any gears to succeed. However you totally neglecting one thing:

Anet put timer on bosses, this action by itself already pushes people to use max DPS gear. Anet adds mechanic that leading to boss live longer = harder, already pushing people to use zerker gear to succeed.

So tell me, why now pushing you to more defensive/ condition base gear suddenly become unacceptable? They already did it for zerker!
Plus a zerker may still succeed under these new mechanic, just “less efficient and harder” than other gears, working in the same way when the mechanic favors zerkers. (You use cond and defensive gear, harder, but doable)

Or you’re just lazy to change gear because all your characters are alrdy full zerk?
In fact, I think all these protests are just a sign of people fear of change and spend more $$ on stuffs they don’t want to spend. They don’t want “balance”, they want the best gear out there that they can take and forget.
I see so many posts pointing out how this is going to make you change gear and can’t play what you want, but who said you can’t still use what you want?
Who said when you fight a bunch of Husks you can’t win with zerkers? It’s just harder but doable! Much like the zerker issue we’re experiencing right now!