At level 21, in a level 17 zone. I hit level 22 and got +40 to all base attributes. Whoo, now I’m more powerful! This turned out to be about +35ish due to the downscaling but still. More powerful.
Then I hit level 23 in the same area, and lost 8 power and 7 from my other stats. Then I gained another level… and lost 8 power and 7 from the other stats. Wait a minute. What?
With the old system, downscaling made you weaker, but it was gradual as you levelled. With this one, you get a huge spike in stats that makes the game easier, but between these big stat spikes the game difficulty rises quickly. It doesn’t make any sense at all. Going from level 22 to 23 caused me to lose 80 max HP. It’s very weirdly designed. With all the stuff introduced in this patch about introducing new players, this change in particular makes absolutely no sense. The game difficulty wobbles violently from level to level.
I know some people don’t expect this issue to change because the devs still haven’t fixed the new trait system the way players wanted, but I think these two cases can’t be compared.
The main gripe about the trait system is that everything takes too long. Level 30 unlock, map completion, etc. It’s really a matter of just not enjoying the feature. However, this issue right here is just completely bonkers.
While the new trait system makes basic sense as a game mechanic, this new downleveling effect couldn’t be more bizarre and backwards. I honestly can’t believe this is an intended consequence of lumping a bunch of stat bonuses together. It couldn’t be.
There might be a lot of things to complain about in this feature pack, but generally everything here makes sense. Everything has some sense of continuity and structure.
But this has to be a bug. It has to be. I don’t know why it was never fixed in China—maybe it was—but I have to believe this is a bug.
If this is how making the pre 80 levels interesting is going to work, then that’s just really unfortunate. This is not the way to make people feel like they’re improving when they level.
I tested it also and got similar results. There is something very wrong with the system and hopefully it won’t get buried here without devs noticing it.
I was curious how this worked, so I tested it out. And well… I’m not sure what they were smoking. As some of you know, how it used to be was you would gain some base stats every level. Now, you gain a huge chunk of base stats every few levels. It turns out this approach screwed up the difficulty curve for new players for a couple of reasons.
1) Base stats are now subject to downscaling. Before, if you were a level 40 player in a level 20 zone, you would have L20 base stats plus your scaled gear and trait stats. Now, all of your stats are lumped together and downscaled, and the result is almost always that you’ll have lower stats than before because you don’t gain base stats every level.
2) That plus the fact that you gain base stats irregularly causes the difficulty curve to shift violently as you level up. Example test case:
I was level 21 in a level 17 zone. All of the mobs were overly difficult despite me having level-appropriate gear and a lucky power amulet drop. I hit level 22 which is a stat bonus level, and gained +40 to all stats (which turned out to be ~35 points when downscaled). Immediately after gaining this level I started absolutely wrecking everything in sight. At level 21, I fought a champion and it destroyed me. At level 22, I destroyed the champion.
I then levelled to 23 (same zone), and I lost 8 points from all of my stats. I then levelled to 24 (same zone), and lost 8 more points. Now the difficulty was significantly higher. I levelled to 25, and almost the entire bonus I had gained before was now negated.
The point is, players who are levelling now reach absurd power plateaus on levels where they gain stat spikes. And then as they level up, difficulty rises dramatically until the next stat spike arrives to alleviate it. It makes little sense, and I have no clue why Arena Net decided this was a good idea.
Tried it myself and it’s really annoying that content gets really difficult the further you level after a big stat gain.
Keep this at the top. If anet is going to completely re-work the rate of release of base stats, they need to completely re-work the downscaling system at the same time. I don’t understand how a change like this could possibly get past QA.
Mike + Colin it’s time to stop hiring QA on 3 month contracts and actually get some full-time, experienced QA teams
It’s not a bug. This became an obvious obstacle the moment they announced their intentions regarding the update. Numerous people cited this as a potential problem in complaint posts leading up to the release. Just as the April trait system makes you weaker each level until you get to the next trait/stat boost, the new leveling system compounds that effect. Add in the natural armor and weapon level progression of new gear every 6-7 levels (rare/masterwork), and you have a very tedious mess that may not have a balance.
The easiest solution is to make monsters between those stat bumps all of equal power. So, all level 52-58 monsters have the same stats and relative difficulty. Actually, due to the numerous armor and weapon combinations the scattered levels at which they exist, you probably would have to make it a 3 level system (52-54 monsters all the same). Power players would be gearing up every 3 levels, instead of every 7.
I had assumed they would do as much with this release, but I haven’t heard anyone mention it. And of course, once you start doing this, why have a level 80 cap at all. The entire game is built on an 80 level system and now they are introducing features that are not entirely compatible with that concept. Questionable decision making to say the least.
I recommend cross-posting this to the bug forums anyway. It may not be a true “bug” but it’s definitely an un-intended effect of leaving downscaling on its original curve while changing the distribution of base states to a step-wise curve. You’ll probably have a better chance of getting this noticed in the bug forum as well.
Your certainly welcome to so, but forgetting to balance monsters or change the downscaling after altering the stats is like forgetting to open the door before walking through it. Your deserve a bump on the nose. It’s unfathomable this problem wouldn’t occur to an entire team of employees.
Your certainly welcome to so, but forgetting to balance monsters or change the downscaling after altering the stats is like forgetting to open the door before walking through it. Your deserve a bump on the nose. It’s unfathomable this problem wouldn’t occur to an entire team of employees.
It’s the end result of hiring QA staff on three-month contracts instead of hiring QA teams as long-term, salaried employees. Blatantly obvious stuff falls through the cracks because the QA team is going to be wildly inexperienced in game functions compared to the more experienced end of the playerbase.
Something like this should have been noticed by at least one of the people designing the new system though.
Again, the missing piece of information is monster stats. I haven’t played around enough yet to see whether a monster +1 over my level kicks my tail. Remember, this has always been the case to some extent. If I buy level 53 rare armor and weapons, it will be strongest for me at level 53 and relatively weaker as I level up. The level 53 monsters died in 3 hits. The level 59 monsters take 6 (or whatever) and then at 60 with new rare armor and weaps, I am stronger again. What’s complicated, is that we now have 3 overlapping systems that work on the same principle. I haven’t seen all the level splits, but there likely are a few problem levels where you are weak on all 3 stat boosts. Anet is probably hoping the overlapping nature will create something of a balance, while at the same time ticking off every power leveler out there. Possibly their largest mistake is not realizing the size of that contingent. Even casual players who have been through the story several times are more likely to gear up, boost up, craft up, or otherwise push through at a faster pace. I don’t understand why they would deliberately frustrate that process.
Well, upon closer inspection, this is really confusing. The leveling system didn’t need any changes in the first place, so you’d think they’d take their time to come up with a well-tested alternative… but nope.
At level 21, in a level 17 zone. I hit level 22 and got +40 to all base attributes. Whoo, now I’m more powerful! This turned out to be about +35ish due to the downscaling but still. More powerful.
Then I hit level 23 in the same area, and lost 8 power and 7 from my other stats. Then I gained another level… and lost 8 power and 7 from the other stats. Wait a minute. What?
With the old system, downscaling made you weaker, but it was gradual as you levelled. With this one, you get a huge spike in stats that makes the game easier, but between these big stat spikes the game difficulty rises quickly. It doesn’t make any sense at all. Going from level 22 to 23 caused me to lose 80 max HP. It’s very weirdly designed. With all the stuff introduced in this patch about introducing new players, this change in particular makes absolutely no sense. The game difficulty wobbles violently from level to level.
Did you experiment with the old system since you have something to compare it to?
What were your stats as lvl 22-23 in lvl 17 zone before change? No? Sheesh.
Yes, it ALSO went down since your gear was worse for your level.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
Well, upon closer inspection, this is really confusing. The leveling system didn’t need any changes in the first place, so you’d think they’d take their time to come up with a well-tested alternative… but nope.
Which goes back to the root of the problem. The bulk of these changes were made for the Chinese launch, and obviously all of those players are new players. These changes were not designed for us, but trying to operate two different versions of the game would be tedious, or more likely require two different operations entirely, and Anet elected not to do that. All of the rhetoric, explanations, and justifications are damage control. If the China release never happens, neither do these changes. Remember, they sold 3.5 million copies of the game in the first 30 days in China. That 1 million more than all of their previous global sales in the first 18 months. These are business decisions made on the premise there is more money to be made from the Chinese audience than the existing one, which at 2 years, is likely to decline sharply no matter what changes they make.
At level 21, in a level 17 zone. I hit level 22 and got +40 to all base attributes. Whoo, now I’m more powerful! This turned out to be about +35ish due to the downscaling but still. More powerful.
Then I hit level 23 in the same area, and lost 8 power and 7 from my other stats. Then I gained another level… and lost 8 power and 7 from the other stats. Wait a minute. What?
With the old system, downscaling made you weaker, but it was gradual as you levelled. With this one, you get a huge spike in stats that makes the game easier, but between these big stat spikes the game difficulty rises quickly. It doesn’t make any sense at all. Going from level 22 to 23 caused me to lose 80 max HP. It’s very weirdly designed. With all the stuff introduced in this patch about introducing new players, this change in particular makes absolutely no sense. The game difficulty wobbles violently from level to level.
Did you experiment with the old system since you have something to compare it to?
What were your stats as lvl 22-23 in lvl 17 zone before change? No? Sheesh.
Yes, it ALSO went down since your gear was worse for your level.
In the old system, downscaling was on the same curve as stat distribution so you actually increased in strength as your level increased. In the current system, base stats are distributed in big “chunks” every few levels, instead of in a steadily increasing curve every level. This means that, due to the down-scaling system not changing to mirror the new stat distribution, you go from being seriously for several levels in between a “stat chunk” being awarded to very, very strong for a single level. Then the cycle repeats.
Well, upon closer inspection, this is really confusing. The leveling system didn’t need any changes in the first place, so you’d think they’d take their time to come up with a well-tested alternative… but nope.
Which goes back to the root of the problem. The bulk of these changes were made for the Chinese launch, and obviously all of those players are new players. These changes were not designed for us, but trying to operate two different versions of the game would be tedious, or more likely require two different operations entirely, and Anet elected not to do that.
Upkeeping two distinctly different versions of the same software is usually not the best idea, so that’s a good point. However, if the Chinese version uses the same downscaling system as ours, this change doesn’t work there any better than it works here.
At level 21, in a level 17 zone. I hit level 22 and got +40 to all base attributes. Whoo, now I’m more powerful! This turned out to be about +35ish due to the downscaling but still. More powerful.
Then I hit level 23 in the same area, and lost 8 power and 7 from my other stats. Then I gained another level… and lost 8 power and 7 from the other stats. Wait a minute. What?
With the old system, downscaling made you weaker, but it was gradual as you levelled. With this one, you get a huge spike in stats that makes the game easier, but between these big stat spikes the game difficulty rises quickly. It doesn’t make any sense at all. Going from level 22 to 23 caused me to lose 80 max HP. It’s very weirdly designed. With all the stuff introduced in this patch about introducing new players, this change in particular makes absolutely no sense. The game difficulty wobbles violently from level to level.
Did you experiment with the old system since you have something to compare it to?
What were your stats as lvl 22-23 in lvl 17 zone before change? No? Sheesh.
Yes, it ALSO went down since your gear was worse for your level.
In the old system, downscaling was on the same curve as stat distribution so you actually increased in strength as your level increased. In the current system, base stats are distributed in big “chunks” every few levels, instead of in a steadily increasing curve every level. This means that, due to the down-scaling system not changing to mirror the new stat distribution, you go from being seriously for several levels in between a “stat chunk” being awarded to very, very strong for a single level. Then the cycle repeats.
No you didnt increase in strenght while downscaling. I have 12 lvl 80ies. If you didnt upgrade your gear regularly you were weakling as you lost stats on each level (while dowscaled)
But please, since you have teh numbers show us how your stats behaved from going from lvl 22 to lvl 24 in lvl 17 zone so we can compare it ot now.
Colin Johanson: “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the
best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.”
At level 21, in a level 17 zone. I hit level 22 and got +40 to all base attributes. Whoo, now I’m more powerful! This turned out to be about +35ish due to the downscaling but still. More powerful.
Then I hit level 23 in the same area, and lost 8 power and 7 from my other stats. Then I gained another level… and lost 8 power and 7 from the other stats. Wait a minute. What?
With the old system, downscaling made you weaker, but it was gradual as you levelled. With this one, you get a huge spike in stats that makes the game easier, but between these big stat spikes the game difficulty rises quickly. It doesn’t make any sense at all. Going from level 22 to 23 caused me to lose 80 max HP. It’s very weirdly designed. With all the stuff introduced in this patch about introducing new players, this change in particular makes absolutely no sense. The game difficulty wobbles violently from level to level.
Did you experiment with the old system since you have something to compare it to?
What were your stats as lvl 22-23 in lvl 17 zone before change? No? Sheesh.
Yes, it ALSO went down since your gear was worse for your level.
In the old system, downscaling was on the same curve as stat distribution so you actually increased in strength as your level increased. In the current system, base stats are distributed in big “chunks” every few levels, instead of in a steadily increasing curve every level. This means that, due to the down-scaling system not changing to mirror the new stat distribution, you go from being seriously for several levels in between a “stat chunk” being awarded to very, very strong for a single level. Then the cycle repeats.
No you didnt increase in strenght while downscaling. I have 12 lvl 80ies. If you didnt upgrade your gear regularly you were weakling as you lost stats on each level (while dowscaled)
But please, since you have teh numbers show us how your stats behaved from going from lvl 22 to lvl 24 in lvl 17 zone so we can compare it ot now.
You used to increase in relative strength when you leveled and entered a downlevel zone. Before, a level 22 in a level 17 zone would be weaker than a level 23 in a level 17 zone. Correspondingly, level 23 would be weaker than a level 24 when both were in a level 17 zone.
Now: you get a huge chunk of base stats at level 22, and very few base stats at level 23 and level 24. So when a level 22, 23, and 24 are in a level 17 zone; the level 22 will end up possessing more stats than the level 23 + 24 because the downscaling is still adjusted based on the old curve
This is exactly how it works on the Chinese client right now too, and the players there have been complaining about it since the Chinese launch.
Well, upon closer inspection, this is really confusing. The leveling system didn’t need any changes in the first place, so you’d think they’d take their time to come up with a well-tested alternative… but nope.
Which goes back to the root of the problem. The bulk of these changes were made for the Chinese launch, and obviously all of those players are new players. These changes were not designed for us, but trying to operate two different versions of the game would be tedious, or more likely require two different operations entirely, and Anet elected not to do that.
Upkeeping two distinctly different versions of the same software is usually not the best idea, so that’s a good point. However, if the Chinese version uses the same downscaling system as ours, this change doesn’t work there any better than it works here.
Unfortunately, without knowing how the monsters are being scaled, we can’t make any definitive declarations. We are assuming a lvl 55 monster is stronger than a lvl 53 monster, as was previously the case . This may no longer be true. Without knowing this, we can’t cut them to ribbons quite yet. Obviously, it was rather careless for them not to elaborate just a little, but perhaps they feel the “adjusted difficulty” phrase covers it.
The quick, imprecise test is to go find a monster +1 on your level. Previously, it would take a few extra hits, but you could manage. If it’s suddenly like fighting a veteran, than that would suggest there’s a problem. You would then need to try it again on a character at a different level to lessen the chance you were sitting on a monster level threshold (52-54 one difficulty/55-57 harder). If the +1 goes down like a cupcake, then it would seem they have tweaked the monster scaling. Try a +2, then +3.
If only there was some way to catch these glaring and horrible errors before the patch went live… like some sort of server… where you test things…
We could call it a TEST SERVER…
That’s one solution. Another vital change would be to stop hiring QA testers on 3 month contracts and employ long-term, salaried QA teams. When QA teams are only hired on 3-month contracts, the experience + familiarity with the game of your QA team is going to be drastically lower than that of the player base.
This new system makes the game feel like an MMO in its early beta stages, not an MMO that has been around for 2 years. I mean that in a bad way, in that it seems like the devs aren’t sure what their players want yet and the whole game is a little buggy and confusing.
If only there was some way to catch these glaring and horrible errors before the patch went live… like some sort of server… where you test things…
We could call it a TEST SERVER…
I’ve been in an MMO with a test server, it doesn’t help. If anything it just makes buggy updates even more frustrating because you can have players posting in the test server forum about bugs they discovered months before the update… then have the update pushed through anyway, documented bugs and all.
I have noticed this as well, on my lvl 40 elementalist, and now i see that i’m not the only one thankfuly. I was shocked with how hard the mobs were hitting me, and how little damage i did compared to the previous patch.
The saddest part to me is that I generally like the patch, but things like this make me wonder where the dev teams are actually trying to take this game. E-sport seems to be out of the question, as the lion’s share of content and updates are aimed at casual and new players, story/lore seems like a strong possibility, but the scrambling of the original personal story makes me wonder about that, and now that leveling seems to have been made much harder and much longer, I can’t really say they are truly focused on drawing in more casual and new players either.
If anet would actually MAINTAIN a dialogue with the player base, not just listen with minimal replies, and then release related content months later with mixed results. I think there’d be a lot less of these issues, and less outrage and anet scrambling to work in last minute changes, like with the oringinal announcment of torment for mesmer scepter with no PU condi nerfs, or the colored commander tags being 300 gold per color.
I’ve looked into the down-scaling calculations and identified the bug that is causing this issue. There’s definitely a lot of stats being lost when scaled down that isn’t intended.
I’ve looked into the down-scaling calculations and identified the bug that is causing this issue. There’s definitely a lot of stats being lost when scaled down that isn’t intended.
Thanks for looking into it. Will we see smoothing of the stat increases? The game goes from easy → difficult → easy as you progress through the levels, (likely) due to your stats coming in large portions.