Guild Wars 2

I’m not here to say that the game doesn’t feel rewarding enough, or it’s too hard to get items, or any other self-entitled garbage.

It’s just, it’s become clear that fighting enemies isn’t worth it.

This is especially bad in dungeons where mobs have boosted health but normal drop rates.

I understand that the devs are concerned about the health of the trading post economy and stuff, but there’s gotta be a better way.

The bottom line is, I should feel like any effort I take in the game is worth my time. If I spend time to fight mobs it should be just as rewarding as anything else I spend time doing in the game.

If you look in the stickies up top there is a thread that was started by Stephanie Lopresti (I think) about this issue… “Post data on perceived loot drops” or something like that. There is real data there that has been presented by players to support this as an issue. If you have any facts I would suggest posting there. Not trying to be a jerk I agree with you 100%. I just feel like if we keep putting solid data in there they will have fix it. Thanks!

Gord.8654:

If you look in the stickies up top there is a thread that was started by Stephanie Lopresti (I think) about this issue… “Post data on perceived loot drops” or something like that. There is real data there that has been presented by players to support this as an issue. If you have any facts I would suggest posting there. Not trying to be a jerk I agree with you 100%. I just feel like if we keep putting solid data in there they will have fix it. Thanks!

Well this thread is more to explain why low drop rates are a bad thing. I would be surprised if the devs didn’t know their own drop rates.

They might look at that data and just go “So? It’s for the economy! Working as intended!”

Oh and I should mention that I haven’t noticed any changes. Drop rates have been low since day 1.

Everyone should know by now, it is to control the Bot population. If you look around, you never ever see bots in this game. GW2 has the Best Bot control of any other MMO I have ever played.

The economy is already pretty solid and always has been. Just make a crafter and sell your wares, you will make a ton of money! Also please ensure you have a full set of MF gear and run dungeons, it is very easy to make money in this game if you do it the right way.

“not good enough” is one thing and pathetic is what it really is. GW2 should win the award if the least rewarding game ever made.

Drop rates are a joke.

Dev team believes it’s working as intended and challenges the playerbase to prove otherwise, per Stephane’s sticky thread.

This is called “shifting the burden of proof”, and is a lame tactic that so far appears to be working, as players scramble to present data that has already been presented before.

Expect drop rates to stay this terrible, and perhaps get worse in an “ongoing effort to combat bots ruining the economy” which is PR speak for ‘putting in a crippling DR forcing the playerbase to eventually rely on gem purchases to supply their gold’.

What’s the point of chest boosters and food and armor with MF now? If you can’t sit in an area and kill specific mobs that drop a certain crafting material, what’s the point of crafting, too?

ZaiTh.6378:

Everyone should know by now, it is to control the Bot population. If you look around, you never ever see bots in this game. GW2 has the Best Bot control of any other MMO I have ever played.

The economy is already pretty solid and always has been. Just make a crafter and sell your wares, you will make a ton of money! Also please ensure you have a full set of MF gear and run dungeons, it is very easy to make money in this game if you do it the right way.

I have been seeing the same bots for weeks, and yes they were reported. If you listen to the dungeon-only crowd they are all for eliminating drops from mobs so as to not reward the bots.

There is no point in farming items in this game.
You farm gold and buy the items. If you can not farm as much gold as you would like to have, go buy gems and convert them into gold.

Working as intended.

Hawkmoon.5849:

Drop rates are a joke.

Dev team believes it’s working as intended and challenges the playerbase to prove otherwise, per Stephane’s sticky thread.

This is called “shifting the burden of proof”, and is a lame tactic that so far appears to be working, as players scramble to present data that has already been presented before.

Expect drop rates to stay this terrible, and perhaps get worse in an “ongoing effort to combat bots ruining the economy” which is PR speak for ‘putting in a crippling DR forcing the playerbase to eventually rely on gem purchases to supply their gold’.

It is working as intended. The intent is low drop rates.

I am here to explain why that’s bad. I am challenging their design ideals.

It’s pretty simple. I find myself avoiding fighting mobs instead of looking forward to fighting them. There’s just no point to it. I have better things to do with my time. That’s not good.

@ Everyone else: yes yes I know how to make gold and gear up characters. Thank you for not reading my post.

Khristophoros.7194:

Hawkmoon.5849:

Drop rates are a joke.

Dev team believes it’s working as intended and challenges the playerbase to prove otherwise, per Stephane’s sticky thread.

This is called “shifting the burden of proof”, and is a lame tactic that so far appears to be working, as players scramble to present data that has already been presented before.

Expect drop rates to stay this terrible, and perhaps get worse in an “ongoing effort to combat bots ruining the economy” which is PR speak for ‘putting in a crippling DR forcing the playerbase to eventually rely on gem purchases to supply their gold’.

It is working as intended. The intent is low drop rates.

I am here to explain why that’s bad. I am challenging their design ideals.

It’s pretty simple. I find myself avoiding fighting mobs instead of looking forward to fighting them. There’s just no point to it. I have better things to do with my time. That’s not good.

@ Everyone else: yes yes I know how to make gold and gear up characters. Thank you for not reading my post.

I think you missed my point… and just about everyone else’s, too. And you’re not “challenging” anything (or explained anything yet, for that matter.). You’re ranting on a forum, just like the rest of us. Don’t delude yourself into thinking “This is it. This post is going to change everything! They’ll see the light now!” It’s not; it won’t; and they will not.

The developers are doing exactly what they either A.) want to, or B.) are being told to… and that is to set the drop rates at a level that makes “farming” a fruitless endeavor.

The point I was making is that the dev team, via CM Stephane, has come out and told players there is nothing they can find to substantiate player claims that since the LS update on Nov. 15th, drop rates have radically changed. They continue to say this in spite of the massive thread they recently locked that showed clear, erm, excuse me- to use Stephane’s word, concrete- evidence to the contrary.

Now they want players to basically do the research for them, by submitting more data that shows a change in drop rate. While some players have probably accurately tracked this, very few (myself included) anticipate part of our gaming experience as needing to tell the developers something is seriously defective, and then having to prove it ourselves. I know I don’t spreadsheet all my loot, track which mobs drop what and with what frequency. I find it a little frustrating that after pages of data have already been presented, now they’re suddenly asking for “concrete data” without giving any information in return.

It’s a stall tactic to placate the masses, and it’s bullkitten. Deal with the bots, reduce the DR, and stop punishing players via lazy programming. Simple as that.

To anyone who believes DR was implemented because of the bots… nay.

Many items because of bots -> items do not cost a lot of gold -> people can not sell their items for a lot of gold -> people can not buy a lot of items.

Few items because of DR -> items do cost a lot of gold -> people can sell their items for a lot of gold -> people can not buy a lot of items.

DR just makes people farm items slower. It does not make bots more or less profitable at all.

Nuka Cola.8520:

“not good enough” is one thing and pathetic is what it really is. GW2 should win the award if the least rewarding game ever made.

This, anet doesn’t seem to understand how to implement a proper reward system.

Hawkmoon.5849:

Now they want players to basically do the research for them, by submitting more data that shows a change in drop rate. While some players have probably accurately tracked this, very few (myself included) anticipate part of our gaming experience as needing to tell the developers something is seriously defective, and then having to prove it ourselves.

How the hell can we do that unless we were tracking it before 15/11? When we had no reason to.

Hawkmoon.5849:

Khristophoros.7194:

Hawkmoon.5849:

Drop rates are a joke.

Dev team believes it’s working as intended and challenges the playerbase to prove otherwise, per Stephane’s sticky thread.

This is called “shifting the burden of proof”, and is a lame tactic that so far appears to be working, as players scramble to present data that has already been presented before.

Expect drop rates to stay this terrible, and perhaps get worse in an “ongoing effort to combat bots ruining the economy” which is PR speak for ‘putting in a crippling DR forcing the playerbase to eventually rely on gem purchases to supply their gold’.

It is working as intended. The intent is low drop rates.

I am here to explain why that’s bad. I am challenging their design ideals.

It’s pretty simple. I find myself avoiding fighting mobs instead of looking forward to fighting them. There’s just no point to it. I have better things to do with my time. That’s not good.

@ Everyone else: yes yes I know how to make gold and gear up characters. Thank you for not reading my post.

I think you missed my point… and just about everyone else’s, too. And you’re not “challenging” anything (or explained anything yet, for that matter.). You’re ranting on a forum, just like the rest of us. Don’t delude yourself into thinking “This is it. This post is going to change everything! They’ll see the light now!” It’s not; it won’t; and they will not.

The developers are doing exactly what they either A.) want to, or B.) are being told to… and that is to set the drop rates at a level that makes “farming” a fruitless endeavor.

The point I was making is that the dev team, via CM Stephane, has come out and told players there is nothing they can find to substantiate player claims that since the LS update on Nov. 15th, drop rates have radically changed. They continue to say this in spite of the massive thread they recently locked that showed clear, erm, excuse me- to use Stephane’s word, concrete- evidence to the contrary.

Now they want players to basically do the research for them, by submitting more data that shows a change in drop rate. While some players have probably accurately tracked this, very few (myself included) anticipate part of our gaming experience as needing to tell the developers something is seriously defective, and then having to prove it ourselves. I know I don’t spreadsheet all my loot, track which mobs drop what and with what frequency. I find it a little frustrating that after pages of data have already been presented, now they’re suddenly asking for “concrete data” without giving any information in return.

It’s a stall tactic to placate the masses, and it’s bullkitten. Deal with the bots, reduce the DR, and stop punishing players via lazy programming. Simple as that.

I am not buying that the drop rates were changed anyway. This is a different issue. This thread isn’t intended to be about conspiracies.

The drop rates are, and always have been, too low. It’s that simple.

Khristophoros.7194:

I’m not here to say that the game doesn’t feel rewarding enough, or it’s too hard to get items, or any other self-entitled garbage.

It’s just, it’s become clear that fighting enemies isn’t worth it.

This is especially bad in dungeons where mobs have boosted health but normal drop rates.

I understand that the devs are concerned about the health of the trading post economy and stuff, but there’s gotta be a better way.

The bottom line is, I should feel like any effort I take in the game is worth my time. If I spend time to fight mobs it should be just as rewarding as anything else I spend time doing in the game.

No reward for time spent is still no reward. People don’t seem to understand that. There’s this movement (which i don’t get at all and I understand RPers but not these people) that argue you don’t need gold to enjoy the game. Uhm well yeah you do. Because if you don’t have gold there’s a cutoff. You can’t run dungeons because people will deny you a grouping if you aren’t 80 a specific class (denying engineers) or in all exotics.

You do need drops to be able to play your way which is what this game was advertised as originally, don’t hold back do what you want. Well we’re trying to but it seems at every turn there’s some new nerf holding us back from enjoying our time in Tyria.

One of those problems IS the drop rate problem.

I posted in here and I’ll ask it again.

Do the rest of you think there’s something wrong with their data gathering software because they keep giving us the same answer to every concern? “our software isn’t showing that”

ZaiTh.6378:

Everyone should know by now, it is to control the Bot population. If you look around, you never ever see bots in this game. GW2 has the Best Bot control of any other MMO I have ever played.

Surely you’re trolling.

Does everyone know that if you group up for anything PVE, dungeons, WvW, basically anything. You get alot better drops and far more quickly too?

ZaiTh.6378:

Everyone should know by now, it is to control the Bot population. If you look around, you never ever see bots in this game. GW2 has the Best Bot control of any other MMO I have ever played.

The economy is already pretty solid and always has been. Just make a crafter and sell your wares, you will make a ton of money! Also please ensure you have a full set of MF gear and run dungeons, it is very easy to make money in this game if you do it the right way.

Not trying to be rude but do you play? Crafting is extremely unprofitable, there is no discernable increase in drops with magic find in fact the general concensus is that it’s broken and I don’t want to be limited to playing one aspect of the content to make money. The only dungeon that hasn’t been nerfed is Fractals!

Again:
To anyone who believes DR was implemented because of the bots… nay.

Many items because of bots → items do not cost a lot of gold → people can not sell their items for a lot of gold → people can not buy a lot of items.

Few items because of DR → items do cost a lot of gold → people can sell their items for a lot of gold → people can not buy a lot of items.

DR just makes people farm items slower. It does not make bots more or less profitable at all.

There is nothing wrong with droprates, because they set them to be low. They want them low to keep people busy farming, because this game lacks a little end game, a fact many ‘non-casuals’ noticed.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

To anyone who believes DR was implemented because of the bots… nay.

“Diminishing returns, abbreviated DR, is anti-farm code implemented to prevent bots and exploits from disrupting the economy and gaining an unfair advantage over legitimate players.” Sourced from the Wiki, pulled from a conversation with Jon Peters. DR was implemented initially because of a botting problem.

Now, I’m not suggesting it doesn’t serve ANet to have a DR regardless of botting; it certainly does. They can’t expect to make a reasonable profit out of their cash shop if everyone can just spend a few hours farming, sell everything, and convert to gems. Thus, even if botting did not exist, it’s reasonable to believe that the DR would still be present.

The issue I’m presenting is that the DR is crippling to players. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to botters; they make money regardless. They make less, true; but they don’t stop botting because of a DR: they stop botting because they are caught and thus banned. Players, on the other hand, will stop playing because of an inability to acquire any amount of wealth.

Again, I submit: deal with the bots, and reduce the DR. I get that we will never be rid of it; we can’t be. Just like we will never be entirely rid of bots. But I would maintain that if your own “mechanics” are driving players away…

Hawkmoon.5849:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

To anyone who believes DR was implemented because of the bots… nay.

“Diminishing returns, abbreviated DR, is anti-farm code implemented to prevent bots and exploits from disrupting the economy and gaining an unfair advantage over legitimate players.” Sourced from the Wiki, pulled from a conversation with Jon Peters. DR was implemented initially because of a botting problem.

Now, I’m not suggesting it doesn’t serve ANet to have a DR regardless of botting; it certainly does. They can’t expect to make a reasonable profit out of their cash shop if everyone can just spend a few hours farming, sell everything, and convert to gems. Thus, even if botting did not exist, it’s reasonable to believe that the DR would still be present.

The issue I’m presenting is that the DR is crippling to players. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to botters; they make money regardless. They make less, true; but they don’t stop botting because of a DR: they stop botting because they are caught and thus banned. Players, on the other hand, will stop playing because of an inability to acquire any amount of wealth.

Again, I submit: deal with the bots, and reduce the DR. I get that we will never be rid of it; we can’t be. Just like we will never be entirely rid of bots. But I would maintain that if your own “mechanics” are driving players away…

Which is exactly my point.
They say DR is there for the bots, but ultimately it is not.

DR a bot all you want, as long as the same DR applies to the players, it will not change anything, except slowing down the whole economy for everyone alike.

And slowing down the economy equals money for them, because people spend more time in the game and spent some real $ eventually… or just quit, which is the risk they take for keeping players busy with the DR.

“…and gaining an unfair advantage over legitimate players.”
To point this out again:
They punish bots and players to make sure, bots do not have an advantage.
Made me smile

tigirius.9014:

Khristophoros.7194:

I’m not here to say that the game doesn’t feel rewarding enough, or it’s too hard to get items, or any other self-entitled garbage.

It’s just, it’s become clear that fighting enemies isn’t worth it.

This is especially bad in dungeons where mobs have boosted health but normal drop rates.

I understand that the devs are concerned about the health of the trading post economy and stuff, but there’s gotta be a better way.

The bottom line is, I should feel like any effort I take in the game is worth my time. If I spend time to fight mobs it should be just as rewarding as anything else I spend time doing in the game.

No reward for time spent is still no reward. People don’t seem to understand that. There’s this movement (which i don’t get at all and I understand RPers but not these people) that argue you don’t need gold to enjoy the game. Uhm well yeah you do. Because if you don’t have gold there’s a cutoff. You can’t run dungeons because people will deny you a grouping if you aren’t 80 a specific class (denying engineers) or in all exotics.

You do need drops to be able to play your way which is what this game was advertised as originally, don’t hold back do what you want. Well we’re trying to but it seems at every turn there’s some new nerf holding us back from enjoying our time in Tyria.

One of those problems IS the drop rate problem.

I posted in here and I’ll ask it again.

Do the rest of you think there’s something wrong with their data gathering software because they keep giving us the same answer to every concern? “our software isn’t showing that”

The funny thing is, I am an RPer on Tarnished Coast, and I enjoy playing the game for gameplay as well. I am also an avid dungeon runner.

It just really bothers me that certain parts of the game such as fighting enemies are made to feel pointless.

As for your question, I think they’re telling the truth. Player satisfaction is probably very high. The forums are not a good indication because most people who enjoy the game avoid the forums.

I like the game. I enjoy it a lot. But I see ways for it to improve.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Hawkmoon.5849:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

To anyone who believes DR was implemented because of the bots… nay.

“Diminishing returns, abbreviated DR, is anti-farm code implemented to prevent bots and exploits from disrupting the economy and gaining an unfair advantage over legitimate players.” Sourced from the Wiki, pulled from a conversation with Jon Peters. DR was implemented initially because of a botting problem.

Now, I’m not suggesting it doesn’t serve ANet to have a DR regardless of botting; it certainly does. They can’t expect to make a reasonable profit out of their cash shop if everyone can just spend a few hours farming, sell everything, and convert to gems. Thus, even if botting did not exist, it’s reasonable to believe that the DR would still be present.

The issue I’m presenting is that the DR is crippling to players. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to botters; they make money regardless. They make less, true; but they don’t stop botting because of a DR: they stop botting because they are caught and thus banned. Players, on the other hand, will stop playing because of an inability to acquire any amount of wealth.

Again, I submit: deal with the bots, and reduce the DR. I get that we will never be rid of it; we can’t be. Just like we will never be entirely rid of bots. But I would maintain that if your own “mechanics” are driving players away…

Which is exactly my point.
They say DR is there for the bots, but ultimately it is not.

DR a bot all you want, as long as the same DR applies to the players, it will not change anything, except slowing down the whole economy for everyone alike.

And slowing down the economy equals money for them, because people spend more time in the game and spent some real $ eventually… or just quit, which is the risk they take for keeping players busy with the DR.

Aha, yes. We are on exactly the same page

I keep saying over and over, with D3 it was also “working as intended” and that was one of the biggest reasons people quit.

garraeth.3267:

I keep saying over and over, with D3 it was also “working as intended” and that was one of the biggest reasons people quit.

They buffed the drop rates every patch and it didn’t improve the economy or make the game feel more rewarding.

That’s why I said I’m not here for self-entitled reasons.

I realize that everything is relative. Higher drop rates will not do what most people think they will do. D3 is the best example of that. That game went from ilvl 63 rares being extremely rare and valuable to being common and easy to afford. Peoples’ complaints didn’t change.

Higher drop rates would balance out rewards of killing mobs relative to everything else. That’s all it would do. It wouldn’t be some magic cure for the economy for people who think the economy is busted. Those people are out of luck until they change their perspective.

Khristophoros.7194:

It’s pretty simple. I find myself avoiding fighting mobs instead of looking forward to fighting them. There’s just no point to it. I have better things to do with my time. That’s not good.

That’s great. And that is exactly how the game should be.

Read my signature. Or, if you don’t want to read it, watch the Manifesto and listen to how ArenaNet says “We don’t want players to grind”.

That doesn’t mean, “We don’t want to have required grind in GW2”.

That means, “We don’t want players to grind”. In other words, if you are a grinder, this game is not for you.

And it’s easy to find who is a grinder. People who complain about rewards and rewards and rewards, who claim that the game is not worth playing if they are not rewarded, who do not care to have fun in actually experimenting the game, who are not happy with anything but a shiny reward – those are grinders.

And they have been cattered to by every MMO released so far, which is likely why they cannot understand how it’s possible that GW2, a MMO, has not been made for them. They probably cannot even understand the concept of playing a game purely to have fun, regardless of any kind of in-game reward.

So they complain, complain and complain. Meanwhile, the game is working as intended. “We don’t want players to grind”, and players are finding that grinding is so unrewarding that it’s not worth doing.

ArenaNet should have made it more clear:
• If you like MMOs, you are going to think GW2 is ok.
• If you hate MMOs, you are going to love GW2.
• If you are a grinder, a farmer, an exploiter, or an addict… Sorry, you will hate GW2. Kthxb.

As someone who hates the grind-based MMOs, I’m very happy with the original direction of GW2, and I thank ArenaNet for it :-) Let the grinders complain and spout ridiculous conspiracy theories. Sooner or later they will understand.

Erasculio.2914:

Khristophoros.7194:

It’s pretty simple. I find myself avoiding fighting mobs instead of looking forward to fighting them. There’s just no point to it. I have better things to do with my time. That’s not good.

That’s great. And that is exactly how the game should be.

Read my signature. Or, if you don’t want to read it, watch the Manifesto and listen to how ArenaNet says “We don’t want players to grind”.

That doesn’t mean, “We don’t want to have required grind in GW2”.

That means, “We don’t want players to grind”. In other words, if you are a grinder, this game is not for you.

And it’s easy to find who is a grinder. People who complain about rewards and rewards and rewards, who claim that the game is not worth playing if they are not rewarded, who do not care to have fun in actually experimenting the game, who are not happy with anything but a shiny reward – those are grinders.

And they have been cattered to by every MMO released so far, which is likely how they cannot understand how it’s possible that GW2, a MMO, has not been made for them. They probably cannot even understand the concept of playing a game purely to have fun, regardless of any kind of in-game reward.

So they complain, complain and complain. Meanwhile, the game is working as intended. “We don’t want players to grind”, and players are finding that grinding is so unrewarding that it’s not worth doing.

ArenaNet should have made it more clear:
• If you like MMOs, you are going to think GW2 is ok.
• If you hate MMOs, you are going to love GW2.
• If you are a grinder, a farmer, an exploiter, or an addict… Sorry, you will hate GW2. Kthxb.

As someone who hates the grind-based MMOs, I’m very happy with the original direction of GW2, and I thank ArenaNet for it :-) Let the grinders complain and spout ridiculous conspiracy theories. Sooner or later they will understand.

And here is the problem:

Unless you enjoy replaying all the content again with another character and another one af… or are big in PvP, this game has nothing to offer except grinding for cosmetics or a 3% stat increase.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Many items because of bots -> items do not cost a lot of gold -> people can not sell their items for a lot of gold -> people can not buy a lot of items.

Few items because of DR -> items do cost a lot of gold -> people can sell their items for a lot of gold -> people can not buy a lot of items.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your conclusion that drop rates are intentional and are intended to curb actual human players’ drops, I just want to point out that the former is not universally positive and the latter is not a universal negative, and in fact the conclusions you draw at the end “people can/cannot buy alot of items” are totally baseless.

I would rather farm for my own materials than farm for gold to purchase the materials.

I should thank you, though, for pointing out to me that the problem is the trading post itself. Normally I’m a supporter of capitalism and free markets, but if ever there is a place to fool around with less optimal forms of economic governance it would be in gaming, where the stakes are so low. Trading posts (or auction halls, etc) are clearly as toxic to MMOs as AQT is. No wonder they’re becoming staples of the industry have coincided with the genres relative decline.

Erasculio.2914:

Khristophoros.7194:

It’s pretty simple. I find myself avoiding fighting mobs instead of looking forward to fighting them. There’s just no point to it. I have better things to do with my time. That’s not good.

That’s great. And that is exactly how the game should be.

Read my signature. Or, if you don’t want to read it, watch the Manifesto and listen to how ArenaNet says “We don’t want players to grind”.

That doesn’t mean, “We don’t want to have required grind in GW2”.

That means, “We don’t want players to grind”. In other words, if you are a grinder, this game is not for you.

And it’s easy to find who is a grinder. People who complain about rewards and rewards and rewards, who claim that the game is not worth playing if they are not rewarded, who do not care to have fun in actually experimenting the game, who are not happy with anything but a shiny reward – those are grinders.

And they have been cattered to by every MMO released so far, which is likely why they cannot understand how it’s possible that GW2, a MMO, has not been made for them. They probably cannot even understand the concept of playing a game purely to have fun, regardless of any kind of in-game reward.

So they complain, complain and complain. Meanwhile, the game is working as intended. “We don’t want players to grind”, and players are finding that grinding is so unrewarding that it’s not worth doing.

ArenaNet should have made it more clear:
• If you like MMOs, you are going to think GW2 is ok.
• If you hate MMOs, you are going to love GW2.
• If you are a grinder, a farmer, an exploiter, or an addict… Sorry, you will hate GW2. Kthxb.

As someone who hates the grind-based MMOs, I’m very happy with the original direction of GW2, and I thank ArenaNet for it :-) Let the grinders complain and spout ridiculous conspiracy theories. Sooner or later they will understand.

I don’t enjoy how it’s optimal to skip mobs that are in my path. I’m not a grinder. I don’t want the optimal way to play to be go and find guys to fight and only do that.

I want it to be like, oh, there’s a nasty mofo in my way. I better kill it.

The way the game is set up, I feel like it’s a waste of my time to fight stuff at all, even if they’re in my path. That just feels wrong to me.

if they really wanted to fix the economy they would implement ceilings on how much you can sell items for, just like they have minimum value you can sell something for.
fix drop rates as well bu increasing it 40%, yes 40% so everyone has 40% more chance to get anything they are seeking. If people get what they want, the bots will die as everything will be so cheap there would be no profit in it.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

And here is the problem:

Unless you enjoy replaying all the content again with another character and another one af… or are big in PvP, this game has nothing to offer except grinding for cosmetics or a 3% stat increase.

Yep. Assuming you have explored the entire world. Seen most events. Finished your personal storyline. Done all dungeons. Played all the WvW and sPvP you want. Played through all the monthly events. And if you have done all those things… Then you can just wait for the next expansion.

Meanwhile, a classic grind-based MMO would tell you to grind levels, then grind gear, and then just wait for next expansion so you can grind everything again.

The difference isn’t a “lack of end game”. The difference is in how people approach games. Those that are only willing to play a game they enjoy playing hate the grind-based MMOs, so those games offer nothing for them. Grinders who are addicted to grinding levels and gear hate games in which they are not rewarded, so those games offer nothing for them.

Those are two opposite views. You can’t make a game to please everyone. All other MMOs have chosen to catter to the second group (since those are the players that pay monthly fees the longest). GW2 is cattering to the first. It’s no surprise to see so much complaining, by the small vocal minority of grinders.

Khristophoros.7194:

I don’t enjoy how it’s optimal to skip mobs that are in my path. I’m not a grinder. I don’t want the optimal way to play to be go and find guys to fight and only do that.

If you don’t have fun playing through combat in a combat-based MMO, well… If you hated racing games, would you rather play one and be paid for doing so, or play a game you actually enjoyed despite receiving no money?

jason.9217:

if they really wanted to fix the economy they would implement ceilings on how much you can sell items for, just like they have minimum value you can sell something for.
fix drop rates as well bu increasing it 40%, yes 40% so everyone has 40% more chance to get anything they are seeking. If people get what they want, the bots will die as everything will be so cheap there would be no profit in it.

Nope. There’s no “fixing” the economy. Capitalism sucks for the 99%. When will you people accept that? There’s nothing that makes it fun.

The great thing about GW2 is all the stuff that’s valuable is cosmetic. You can enjoy a maxed out character and play all the same content as everyone else instead of being a slave to the economy like in other games.

Khristophoros.7194:

Nope. There’s no “fixing” the economy. Capitalism sucks for the 99%. When will you people accept that? There’s nothing that makes it fun.

Nonsense.

But as great as capitalism is in the real world, it’s not necessary in gaming.

Khristophoros.7194:

You can enjoy a maxed out character and play all the same content as everyone else instead of being a slave to the economy like in other games.

For now.

Ansultares.1567:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Many items because of bots -> items do not cost a lot of gold -> people can not sell their items for a lot of gold -> people can not buy a lot of items.

Few items because of DR -> items do cost a lot of gold -> people can sell their items for a lot of gold -> people can not buy a lot of items.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your conclusion that drop rates are intentional and are intended to curb actual human players’ drops, I just want to point out that the former is not universally positive and the latter is not a universal negative, and in fact the conclusions you draw at the end “people can/cannot buy alot of items” are totally baseless.

I would rather farm for my own materials than farm for gold to purchase the materials.

I should thank you, though, for pointing out to me that the problem is the trading post itself. Normally I’m a supporter of capitalism and free markets, but if ever there is a place to fool around with less optimal forms of economic governance it would be in gaming, where the stakes are so low. Trading posts (or auction halls, etc) are clearly as toxic to MMOs as AQT is. No wonder they’re becoming staples of the industry have coincided with the genres relative decline.

Trading between players, be it a free market or not, is the reason bots exist.
If there was no trading possible, bots would serve no purpose.

I tried to simplify the whole concept, my conclusion of ‘can/can not buy’ is meant to make clear the amount of gold you make is to be seen in relation to the overall economy.
If you make 10 gold per hour and want an item that costs 10 gold, you will be able to afford the item in the same time, compared to a world where you make 20 gold per hour and the item costs 20g.

Example:

No DR: A player farms 10 x Item A in 1 hour.
No DR: A bot farms 10 x Item A in 1 hour.

DR: A player farms 5 x Item A in 1 hour.
DR: A bot farms 5 x Item A in 1 hour.

Let’s say our player wants to craft item X, he needs 20 x Item A to do so.

No DR: The player needs 2 hours.
DR: The player needs 4 hours.

DR slows down the economy, increasing the time people spend farming for ‘stuff’.
It does in no way stop botters more than players.

Yep. Assuming you have explored the entire world. Seen most events. Finished your personal storyline. Done all dungeons. Played all the WvW and sPvP you want. Played through all the monthly events. And if you have done all those things… Then you can just wait for the next expansion.

Meanwhile, a classic grind-based MMO would tell you to grind levels, then grind gear, and then just wait for next expansion so you can grind everything again.

Honestly, I prefer a grind over .. ‘nothing to do’, once you finished the non-grindy content.
But there is no reason to make the grind not feel rewarding.

Make people farm 10000 Lodestones, but have them drop every 2 minutes.

Ansultares.1567:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nope. There’s no “fixing” the economy. Capitalism sucks for the 99%. When will you people accept that? There’s nothing that makes it fun.

Nonsense.

But as great as capitalism is in the real world, it’s not necessary in gaming.

A capitalist economy is all relative. The only things with high value are things which few people are able to efficiently obtain.

Thanks to a system like the trading post (the AH in D3 also did this), the economy is laid out completely for every player, even the least economically savvy, to understand. Thanks to this system, people measure their success relative to the most successful in the economy.

So as a result, those few at the top experience the game as rewarding, while the many experience the game as unrewarding because their expectations are inflated due to the trading post system.

So what’s happening here is, the economy is well understood by the masses. Normally in a capitalist system, the masses don’t have such a good grasp on it so they don’t understand how hard they are screwed over, and so they don’t tend to complain as much. But then when they do understand, we have things like “the 99%” happening IRL.

So drop rates. They are going to be “low” relative to most peoples’ inflated expectations. It doesn’t matter how high those drop rates are relative to the content we play. Even if you can faceroll everything without any effort grinding. D3 proved this painfully well.

Khristophoros.7194:

Ansultares.1567:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nope. There’s no “fixing” the economy. Capitalism sucks for the 99%. When will you people accept that? There’s nothing that makes it fun.

Nonsense.

But as great as capitalism is in the real world, it’s not necessary in gaming.

A capitalist economy is all relative. The only things with high value are things which few people are able to efficiently obtain.

Thanks to a system like the trading post (the AH in D3 also did this), the economy is laid out completely for every player, even the least economically savvy, to understand. Thanks to this system, people measure their success relative to the most successful in the economy.

So as a result, those few at the top experience the game as rewarding, while the many experience the game as unrewarding because their expectations are inflated due to the trading post system.

So what’s happening here is, the economy is well understood by the masses. Normally in a capitalist system, the masses don’t have such a good grasp on it so they don’t understand how hard they are screwed over, and so they don’t tend to complain as much. But then when they do understand, we have things like “the 99%” happening IRL.

So drop rates. They are going to be “low” relative to most peoples’ inflated expectations. It doesn’t matter how high those drop rates are relative to the content we play. Even if you can faceroll everything without any effort grinding. D3 proved this painfully well.

If you as a player see, for example, the requirement of 30 corrupted lodestones for a corrupted weapon and start killing icebrood colossus’ and experience maybe 1 lodestone drop per hour, none if you are unlucky. How is that not relative to the content played?

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Khristophoros.7194:

Ansultares.1567:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nope. There’s no “fixing” the economy. Capitalism sucks for the 99%. When will you people accept that? There’s nothing that makes it fun.

Nonsense.

But as great as capitalism is in the real world, it’s not necessary in gaming.

A capitalist economy is all relative. The only things with high value are things which few people are able to efficiently obtain.

Thanks to a system like the trading post (the AH in D3 also did this), the economy is laid out completely for every player, even the least economically savvy, to understand. Thanks to this system, people measure their success relative to the most successful in the economy.

So as a result, those few at the top experience the game as rewarding, while the many experience the game as unrewarding because their expectations are inflated due to the trading post system.

So what’s happening here is, the economy is well understood by the masses. Normally in a capitalist system, the masses don’t have such a good grasp on it so they don’t understand how hard they are screwed over, and so they don’t tend to complain as much. But then when they do understand, we have things like “the 99%” happening IRL.

So drop rates. They are going to be “low” relative to most peoples’ inflated expectations. It doesn’t matter how high those drop rates are relative to the content we play. Even if you can faceroll everything without any effort grinding. D3 proved this painfully well.

If you as a player see, for example, the requirement of 30 corrupted lodestones for a corrupted weapon and start killing icebrood colossus’ and experience maybe 1 lodestone drop per hour, none if you are unlucky. How is that not relative to the content played?

In this game it is low relative to the content.

If it were 100x that rate, then it would be high relative to the content.

However, the number of people complaining about “low drop rates” would not be any different.

How it is relative to the content is irrelevant. The economy adapts and these items become worthless, so people complain.

Khristophoros.7194:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Khristophoros.7194:

Ansultares.1567:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nope. There’s no “fixing” the economy. Capitalism sucks for the 99%. When will you people accept that? There’s nothing that makes it fun.

Nonsense.

But as great as capitalism is in the real world, it’s not necessary in gaming.

A capitalist economy is all relative. The only things with high value are things which few people are able to efficiently obtain.

Thanks to a system like the trading post (the AH in D3 also did this), the economy is laid out completely for every player, even the least economically savvy, to understand. Thanks to this system, people measure their success relative to the most successful in the economy.

So as a result, those few at the top experience the game as rewarding, while the many experience the game as unrewarding because their expectations are inflated due to the trading post system.

So what’s happening here is, the economy is well understood by the masses. Normally in a capitalist system, the masses don’t have such a good grasp on it so they don’t understand how hard they are screwed over, and so they don’t tend to complain as much. But then when they do understand, we have things like “the 99%” happening IRL.

So drop rates. They are going to be “low” relative to most peoples’ inflated expectations. It doesn’t matter how high those drop rates are relative to the content we play. Even if you can faceroll everything without any effort grinding. D3 proved this painfully well.

If you as a player see, for example, the requirement of 30 corrupted lodestones for a corrupted weapon and start killing icebrood colossus’ and experience maybe 1 lodestone drop per hour, none if you are unlucky. How is that not relative to the content played?

…

However, the number of people complaining about “low drop rates” would not be any different.

How it is relative to the content is irrelevant. The economy adapts and these items become worthless, so people complain.

That is straight up not correct.
Items hold the same value measured at the recipe you need them for.

A solid 10 in the recipe will not require you to farm 15 items suddenly, if the item drops more often.

They would hold less value compared to other items with a drop rate that did not change only.

In Tetris, everything drops.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Khristophoros.7194:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Khristophoros.7194:

Ansultares.1567:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nope. There’s no “fixing” the economy. Capitalism sucks for the 99%. When will you people accept that? There’s nothing that makes it fun.

Nonsense.

But as great as capitalism is in the real world, it’s not necessary in gaming.

A capitalist economy is all relative. The only things with high value are things which few people are able to efficiently obtain.

Thanks to a system like the trading post (the AH in D3 also did this), the economy is laid out completely for every player, even the least economically savvy, to understand. Thanks to this system, people measure their success relative to the most successful in the economy.

So as a result, those few at the top experience the game as rewarding, while the many experience the game as unrewarding because their expectations are inflated due to the trading post system.

So what’s happening here is, the economy is well understood by the masses. Normally in a capitalist system, the masses don’t have such a good grasp on it so they don’t understand how hard they are screwed over, and so they don’t tend to complain as much. But then when they do understand, we have things like “the 99%” happening IRL.

So drop rates. They are going to be “low” relative to most peoples’ inflated expectations. It doesn’t matter how high those drop rates are relative to the content we play. Even if you can faceroll everything without any effort grinding. D3 proved this painfully well.

If you as a player see, for example, the requirement of 30 corrupted lodestones for a corrupted weapon and start killing icebrood colossus’ and experience maybe 1 lodestone drop per hour, none if you are unlucky. How is that not relative to the content played?

…

However, the number of people complaining about “low drop rates” would not be any different.

How it is relative to the content is irrelevant. The economy adapts and these items become worthless, so people complain.

That is straight up not correct.
Items hold the same value measured at the recipe you need them for.

A solid 10 in the recipe will not require you to farm 15 items suddenly, if the item drops more often.

They would hold less value compared to other items with a drop rate that did not change only.

Like I said, the economy is relative. If they increase the drop rate of lodestones, the currency value of them on the trading post decreases.

Yes, the time and effort required for whatever you use the lodestones for is reduced. More people get legendaries. Does that mean people will stop complaining? Nope.

People who complain that the game isn’t rewarding enough don’t feel more rewarded when rewards are increased. This was proven by D3.

I have no business with D3, but do not see, how increased drops on different items would not please me

Well just my 2ct, but I’m playing a lvl 42 guardian and atm i’m wielding my second greatsword I got from a drop.
Other drops are ok’ish but I’m having a really hard time getting a greatsword that is slightly my level.
Sure I can buy one, but i just love to upgrade my stuff along the way.
Spending 20 levels without a greatsword drop is a bit dissapointing imo.

ZaiTh.6378:

Everyone should know by now, it is to control the Bot population. If you look around, you never ever see bots in this game. GW2 has the Best Bot control of any other MMO I have ever played.

The economy is already pretty solid and always has been. Just make a crafter and sell your wares, you will make a ton of money! Also please ensure you have a full set of MF gear and run dungeons, it is very easy to make money in this game if you do it the right way.

Obviously you don’t get into open world much there are bots all over, i reported 3 in the last two days and they were the ones i could catch between teleports..

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

I have no business with D3, but do not see, how increased drops on different items would not please me

Well it wouldn’t stop most of the complaining. Too many people are self entitled, and too many of them base their quality of experience on inflated expectations that are based on the economy itself.

If lodestones are more common and become worth less currency, they will be less exciting drops to those players.

I don’t know if you’re one of those people, but I assure you that they’re extremely common and that’s why complaints continue even when devs increase drop rates.

My complaint is different. I think it’s dumb that we’re discouraged from fighting mobs at all.

Khristophoros.7194:

The only things with high value are things which few people are able to efficiently obtain.

What value? For me, the only value in a legendary is what I put on it. I only decided several weeks ago to start pursuing a legendary (when it became obvious it was the most future-proofed gear). After a month of what most players would consider hardcore farming (but hardcores would consider almost casual farming), I started making estimates on how long it would take me to complete. The rate I came up with didn’t sound so unreasonable, until I started factoring in the inevitable reduction in my hours played.

Suddenly, a goal 2-3 months in the distance was looking closer to a year out, except by then we’ll probably see an expansion with a level cap increase, and who knows what changes will be made to legendary weapons (we know they’ll be grandfathered into ascended tier, but level 80 legendary weapons may not be grandfathered into the increased level cap).

I don’t necessarily mind such a long term goal, but to make even that deadline will require grinding only the most profitable content, and purchasing all the necessary mats off the TP.

The TP isn’t evil because people are playing it for their own personal gain; it’s evil because it whitewashes the entire experience by funneling everything through it.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

DR slows down the economy, increasing the time people spend farming for ‘stuff’.
It does in no way stop botters more than players.

Well that’s where I agree with you, but has nothing to do with what I mentioned.

I just wanted to point out that not being able to sell my drops on the TP for as much as they once were going for isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if it means I can actually farm for needed mats myself, instead of being forced to grind the most profitable content and then buying those needed mats from the TP.

Basically, gold farm+TP is not a rewarding gaming experience, and does not inspire the description “legendary,” except perhaps in regards to the waste of time that it represents.

I just wanted to point out that not being able to sell my drops on the TP for as much as they once were going for isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if it means I can actually farm for needed mats myself, instead of being forced to grind the most profitable content and then buying those needed mats from the TP.

All my postings just described why the implementation of DR is a huge time sink by arenanet and does not stop bots in any way, only players.

What you wish for is Anet removing DR and/or increasing droprates which would my ideal world aswell

Khristophoros.7194:

garraeth.3267:

I keep saying over and over, with D3 it was also “working as intended” and that was one of the biggest reasons people quit.

They buffed the drop rates every patch and it didn’t improve the economy or make the game feel more rewarding.

That’s why I said I’m not here for self-entitled reasons.

I realize that everything is relative. Higher drop rates will not do what most people think they will do. D3 is the best example of that. That game went from ilvl 63 rares being extremely rare and valuable to being common and easy to afford. Peoples’ complaints didn’t change.

Higher drop rates would balance out rewards of killing mobs relative to everything else. That’s all it would do. It wouldn’t be some magic cure for the economy for people who think the economy is busted. Those people are out of luck until they change their perspective.

No they only buffed drops after 60% of their playerbase left the game. that’s the only time they showed concern. wait for it here it’s coming….

Nov 15 th , veterans and champions are now guaranteed to drop loot ? huh where ?

The fact is bad loot means people just skip most of the game tbh and that hurts the most