Guild Wars 2

haviz.1340:

eisberg.2379:

which is kind of funny, One can get 339-445 Dragonite Ore from doing one 1 of each of the fights/activities that drop them, and the time gating is what 5 days total?

Not everyone prefers to spend hours on pressing one while roleplaying being a zergling.

There are two distinct difference between exotic and ascended gear.

• time-gating
• being forced to complete specific content to acquire it

I can live with the first one.

Definitely agree with haviz here…

Well, I’m glad though tht someone can tell me how much of that dragonite ore u can get… per day is it, thats theoretically possible. Except that some events people just dont really do it except on rare occasions. I suppose we were suppose to try soloing some of those temple events perhaps? Or solo teq? (mind u i love the new teq fight but its understandable there isnt always a group..err.. mob, thats ready to take on it all the time)

And even if there is always a mob of people running the events all the time, every day, well…. believe me i have tried going event after event for it, i got monsterously bored of it, and best part of it was i used up all my time in game for just chasing after these things that I totally didnt do stuff that i really liked in game.

eisberg.2379:

Now do the same thing with Exotic vs Rare, and you’ll find the difference even greater. Heck do Exotic vs Fine and the difference is huge.

Yes. And that’s why it’s fortunate that exotics are so easy to get. Not so with ascended, however.

eisberg.2379:

You got absolutely nothing to base this prediction off of. They introduced a new tier, and yet the content is still balanced around fine (Blue) gear

That is not true. New content is definitely balanced about higher stat point than before. New run-of-the-mill mobs are stronger than their start-of-the-game equal level counterparts (just look at aethers). Revamped Teq dps check was not balanced around people in blues and greens. And so on, and so on.
It’s already happening. Which was to be expected, because the people that complain the most about how the content is so easy are the same people that get the new tier gear the first. Of course that makes everything easier – that’s what stat increases are for. To make a content that will be challenging to that group, it will have to be significantly harder for those still geared in lower tier eq.

Besides, Devs did state several times already that they indeed do intend to continue with vertical progression.

eisberg.2379:

haviz.1340:

Dragonite ore and time gating are the sources of most complains.

which is kind of funny, One can get 339-445 Dragonite Ore from doing one 1 of each of the fights/activities that drop them, and the time gating is what 5 days total?

That’s all nice and dandy, but let’s say (and prepare for a shocker here) that some people don’t like doing the events that reward them.

Shocking, I know right? I mean, who doesn’t enjoy having to closely watch some timers and then going to an event with a bunch of people standing in some safespot, or in the case of Lyssa, unknowingly slowing the fight down by a pretty big margin as per the fact that they’re range afk’ing?

I hate doing open world ‘boss’ fights, yet if I want my ascended stuff, I’m kind of forced to do it. Getting forced to do something you don’t like as to acquire gear is not my definition of fun or good design.

Although, I have to admit that duo’ing Golem Mark ll in full melee with some random guy was the most fun I’ve ever had in open world PvE. I’d also like to try to solo Lyssa, but due to logistic problems (read: morons everywhere), that’s kind of impossible. Solo’ing Mark ll would also be fun to try.

Did you know by the way how much those bosses downscale when you’re there with only a few people? That duo of Mark ll took a whopping 90 seconds.

Bright.9160:

Did you know by the way how much those bosses downscale when you’re there with only a few people? That duo of Mark ll took a whopping 90 seconds.

Zerkers everywhere, right?

eisberg.2379:

haviz.1340:

Dragonite ore and time gating are the sources of most complains.

which is kind of funny, One can get 339-445 Dragonite Ore from doing one 1 of each of the fights/activities that drop them, and the time gating is what 5 days total?

Cause watching a boss spawn timer and robotically going from one to the next is very interesting gameplay? I brought my weaponssmith up to level 500 and crafted 1 Ascended weapon, it was very tedious and mind numbing and took me over 2 weeks. In 1 or 2 hours or less per gaming session (which is what most can allow for play time) there is now way you can do a full round of all the boss. If all you can do is play is a couple hours serveral times a week, the way the boss timers are set up, you will fight the same 3 or 4 pretty much every time. I know, I have done it. Your play sessions are reduced to running 4 or 5 of the shortest fastest dungeon, catching whatever boos of temple is up in your window and crafting your daily, farming whatever other mats like metals and wood (some of which are quite expensive.) No, ascended gear is nothing but a monotonous grind especially if you have multiple builds and alts.

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

again, using the word ‘by’ in the context of gaming 2 other definitions of the word make more sense for an MMO game.

Again, the definition of “by” you want to insist on is not valid in the context here. Not valid. Period.

Wow. Can’t believe we’re even discussing something this stupid and obvious. I’m done responding to your trolls.

Also, just so new visitors to the thread don’t miss it…

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

So we’re going to give weight to this quote, which was a year before the game’s release and has a disclaimer in it. (see bolded text)

And we’re going to ignore the following quote from July 2013:

Colin Johanson:

Progression Advancement

One of the core points we addressed back in January but didn’t provide specifics on yet related to progression.

We’ve seen a lot of questions in regards to this after the release of ascended gear: What will the core reward system be for Guild Wars 2 in the future after ascended gear has all been released? We specifically said we don’t want to get caught up in the trap where every 3-6 months the game adds another tier of gear to the game; that invalidates all your hard work and the rewards you’ve earned.

So what are we going to do instead?

New Skill and Traits

We’ll begin regularly adding new skills and traits to the game for each profession to expand your characters and builds! You will be able to earn these new traits and skills by unlocking them. To go along with this, we’ll expand the content and options to earn skill points to help encourage players to experience different challenges and content throughout the world. These skills and traits will be designed to be balanced with the existing skills/traits we currently have in the game, and will simply compliment and expand the range of abilities and tactics available to each profession. Both WvW and PvE players can acquire skills and traits, and additional means of earning skill points will be addressed for both core content areas.

The regular addition of skills and traits that you can earn as you play provides us an extremely stable, easily expandable reward system that fits neatly into the pillars of progression and advancement that Guild Wars 2 are all about. Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.

Emphasis mine.

So, what was this thread about again?

Mackdose.6504:

And we’re going to ignore the following quote from July 2013:

Colin Johanson:

(snip)
Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.

So, what was this thread about again?

The fact that what they said will happen and what is happening do not match? Because ascended weapons (and armor, when it gets in) do mean invalidating what i have earned so far (at least as far as having a BiS is concerned).

Also, see that again he said about not introducing new tiers every 3-6 months. I can believe that – after all ascended tier introduction is staggered for almost a whole year already (and will be slightly over a year when it is fully released). So, no, not every 3-6 months. Every 1-2 years however? Now, that is quite likely.

And they can always increase the level cap from time to time, to introduce a healthy variance.

Can you do the math on defensive stats aswell? Maybe with leaked armor stats too.

I think we dont see an equivalent damage decrease there. Could be interesting in PvP point of view.

eisberg.2379:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game.

Sure it was.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game <snip>
perm

And even casual gamers can get ascended pretty easily. They purposely made sure it was reasonably with in reach of casual gamers.

To be fair, this is not really true. They will get ascended over many months, but not easily. A few casuals still don’t have full Exotics for all their characters, and less if they want Ascended for every alt (which I wouldn’t recommend for them to lose too much sleep over.)

If Ascended was casual friendly, it would have lost its luster towards the people they wanted to reach with it-so-called “dedicated” players (as ANet called them back then, though I am sure they meant they had many hours to play). I have 6 total ascended trinkets over 4 level 80 characters (my other characters aren’t still level 80.) Those were not purchased with Fractals items, but with Laurels or WvW badges+Laurel combo. I am casual, though truly dedicated in many ways (I don’t have the time to play as much as many players, though, which is fine.) If getting Ascended was as easy as getting Exotics (which is what I believe you think they are-easy to obtain for casuals) then they would have no purpose in the game

Ascended wasn’t created for casuals, but to appease players who thought the game had “no progression” for them to strive forwards. That meant Fractals progression. I would add, there’s no need for Ascended outside the Fractals, though of course at least it offers most players a few more stats to strive forwards if they so wish. But they are not casual friendly at all-especially if you like to experiment and tweak with builds, even with one character alone. Casual players could do better (IMHO) by not bothering with them, for there’s not much to be gained and they can lose focus if it’s not a fun grind for them to participate in. In short, Exotics aren’t grindy and are more representative of their original plan-which obviously didn’t pan out as well as they had hoped-but fractals are, because it was made for people who are more open to grind and “progress” (I would wager ANet will deny this, but they also confirmed it with that “dedicated players” comment.)

(I have like 456-7 Weaponsmithing ankitten ot even caring about that. Just wanted to explore it and found it too expensive to get to 500, so I will just let it happen over months rather than worry about something I don’t need to have fun-perhaps it was made with another type of player in mind, and definitely not “casual” by any stretch of the imagination.)

Star Ace.5207:

eisberg.2379:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game.

Sure it was.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game <snip>
perm

And even casual gamers can get ascended pretty easily. They purposely made sure it was reasonably with in reach of casual gamers.

To be fair, this is not really true. They will get ascended over many months, but not easily. A few casuals still don’t have full Exotics for all their characters, and less if they want Ascended for every alt (which I wouldn’t recommend for them to lose too much sleep over.)

If Ascended was casual friendly, it would have lost its luster towards the people they wanted to reach with it-so-called “dedicated” players (as ANet called them back then, though I am sure they meant they had many hours to play). I have 6 total ascended trinkets over 4 level 80 characters (my other characters aren’t still level 80.) Those were not purchased with Fractals items, but with Laurels or WvW badges+Laurel combo. I am casual, though truly dedicated in many ways (I don’t have the time to play as much as many players, though, which is fine.) If getting Ascended was as easy as getting Exotics (which is what I believe you think they are-easy to obtain for casuals) then they would have no purpose in the game

Ascended wasn’t created for casuals, but to appease players who thought the game had “no progression” for them to strive forwards. That meant Fractals progression. I would add, there’s no need for Ascended outside the Fractals, though of course at least it offers most players a few more stats to strive forwards if they so wish. But they are not casual friendly at all-especially if you like to experiment and tweak with builds, even with one character alone. Casual players could do better (IMHO) by not bothering with them, for there’s not much to be gained and they can lose focus if it’s not a fun grind for them to participate in. In short, Exotics aren’t grindy and are more representative of their original plan-which obviously didn’t pan out as well as they had hoped-but fractals are, because it was made for people who are more open to grind and “progress” (I would wager ANet will deny this, but they also confirmed it with that “dedicated players” comment.)

(I have like 456-7 Weaponsmithing ankitten ot even caring about that. Just wanted to explore it and found it too expensive to get to 500, so I will just let it happen over months rather than worry about something I don’t need to have fun-perhaps it was made with another type of player in mind, and definitely not “casual” by any stretch of the imagination.)

Why does everyone trot out the “tweak and experiment with builds” line like BiS is required to accomplish any kind of experimentation or tweak.

Ascended items don’t even have rune-slots kitten .

whyme.3281:

Can you do the math on defensive stats aswell? Maybe with leaked armor stats too.

I’m not going to do exact math here, but assuming that the base armor rating will be increased by 5% (as base weapon damage did), then the damage reduction will end up at somewhere around 2-3% increase. Perhaps 3-5% increase for a toughness-primary full set. Precise values may be a bit different, but looking at the damage formula (and the fact that armor, toughness and vit do not scale cumulatively as well as power/prec/crit damage) i’d say my guesstimates should be pretty close.

Astralporing.1957:

Mackdose.6504:

And we’re going to ignore the following quote from July 2013:

Colin Johanson:

(snip)
Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.

So, what was this thread about again?

The fact that what they said will happen and what is happening do not match? Because ascended weapons (and armor, when it gets in) do mean invalidating what i have earned so far (at least as far as having a BiS is concerned).

Maybe you should stop chasing carrots if you don’t like having carrots to chase?

I mean, exotics still have unique skins so they’re never completely irrelevant or invalidated. Having BiS is a bragging right, not a game requirement.

Hi, Vanthian! Long Time No See! Glad to see you are alive and well.

Now… back OT:

The statistical differences are definitely a concern, but I think the concern is overblown right now.

If there were content that was of similarly more difficult (read: not just longer to complete or rediculous timers) endeavors, then I could see spending all that time and effort in getting full ascended. As of right now, there is nothing in the game that “deserves” ascended gear.

With two exceptions:

1. WvW

Eventually, I believe that “exotics” will be so obsolete in WvW that even a 1% boost will mean the difference between surviving and dying. Even so, right now there is no need for it. As more and more WvW veterans gain ascended gear, the difference will be much more obvious, and us poor old exotics users will be left out in the cold.

2. High level Fractals

I know nothing about Fractals. I have stepped through the portal once in my whole GW2 life, and that was to say that I saw it once. I have guildies that thrive on them, however, and what they have to me leads me to believe that after a certain point, if you don’t have Ascended gear, it is impossible to progress.

The thing is that both of these activities are relative “niche” activities. Both have specific goals that require more organization that “plain ol’ PvE.” Both are geared toward a specific group of people, and both involve a bit more thought and planning than running around on the champ train.

My opinion (and only mine) is that regardless of what anyone says pro or con about Ascended items or the way they were implemented is that even with their stat boosts (of any kind and percentage) there just isn’t enough content geared to require it yet. Ascended is mostly something to give to certain groups of players in order to have a feeling of “progression.” By all means…knock yourselves out. Until they have content that is “worth it” I will roll along in my exotics.

The 5% people claimed was just comparing weapons, but if u compare all the gear, yes is 10% +/-

Ashabhi.1365:

Hi, Vanthian! Long Time No See! Glad to see you are alive and well.

Now… back OT:

The statistical differences are definitely a concern, but I think the concern is overblown right now.

If there were content that was of similarly more difficult (read: not just longer to complete or rediculous timers) endeavors, then I could see spending all that time and effort in getting full ascended. As of right now, there is nothing in the game that “deserves” ascended gear.

With two exceptions:

1. WvW

Eventually, I believe that “exotics” will be so obsolete in WvW that even a 1% boost will mean the difference between surviving and dying. Even so, right now there is no need for it. As more and more WvW veterans gain ascended gear, the difference will be much more obvious, and us poor old exotics users will be left out in the cold.

2. High level Fractals

I know nothing about Fractals. I have stepped through the portal once in my whole GW2 life, and that was to say that I saw it once. I have guildies that thrive on them, however, and what they have to me leads me to believe that after a certain point, if you don’t have Ascended gear, it is impossible to progress.

The thing is that both of these activities are relative “niche” activities. Both have specific goals that require more organization that “plain ol’ PvE.” Both are geared toward a specific group of people, and both involve a bit more thought and planning than running around on the champ train.

My opinion (and only mine) is that regardless of what anyone says pro or con about Ascended items or the way they were implemented is that even with their stat boosts (of any kind and percentage) there just isn’t enough content geared to require it yet. Ascended is mostly something to give to certain groups of players in order to have a feeling of “progression.” By all means…knock yourselves out. Until they have content that is “worth it” I will roll along in my exotics.

Getting the weapons, rings, amulets, and back pieces will bridge the lions share of the stat gap and you can bet there will be a majority of players with a mix of gear rather than full-metal-pink for a long time.

As for gear-gated content, the PvE is balanced around rares. Until 80 rares no longer complete content, “power creep” in this game is a bogeyman.

I don’t think we will see a new tier of rarity in the next 24 months. The current system has still enough space to maintain a vertical progression in power. Ascended armor will come end of the year. People will be busy for several months to acquire all the ascended pieces they want. We will see legendary pieces of jewelery in the near future. Another time sink for fans of progression. We still missing ascended runes and sigils. Until now we have only blue infusions. There are still four unused tiers left. Arenanet can easily transfer the vertical gear progression onto infusions. Again a huge time sink just around the corner.

The incoming ascended armor will reduce the gain in damage. Maybe these pieces will only accept defensive infusion. Maybe Arenanet will develop new defensive infusions like -2% damage or -1% crit. damage. The infusions are giving the devs so much freedom in designing progression – no need for new tiers for the two years. Imagine ascended infusions with +20/15/5 compared to +5 on blue infusions nowadays.

Tequatl is not balanced around ascended gear. The encounter is balanced around group coordination. Coordinated large groups can kill Tequatl in 7-8 minutes. Ascended tier of equipment is really not needed. Exotics will do it too.

Mackdose.6504:

As for gear-gated content, the PvE is balanced around rares. Until 80 rares no longer complete content, “power creep” in this game is a bogeyman.

Who told you that?

I agree about Ascended gear being a mistake. They should have never added it in the first place. I can deal with Ascended gear, even though I think it is bad for the game. If they ever say they are adding another tier I will be gone though.

Mackdose.6504:

Star Ace.5207:

eisberg.2379:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Xae Isareth.1364:

It was never advertised as a horizontal progression game.

Sure it was.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?
Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game <snip>
perm

And even casual gamers can get ascended pretty easily. They purposely made sure it was reasonably with in reach of casual gamers.

To be fair, this is not really true. They will get ascended over many months, but not easily. A few casuals still don’t have full Exotics for all their characters, and less if they want Ascended for every alt (which I wouldn’t recommend for them to lose too much sleep over.)

If Ascended was casual friendly, it would have lost its luster towards the people they wanted to reach with it-so-called “dedicated” players (as ANet called them back then, though I am sure they meant they had many hours to play). I have 6 total ascended trinkets over 4 level 80 characters (my other characters aren’t still level 80.) Those were not purchased with Fractals items, but with Laurels or WvW badges+Laurel combo. I am casual, though truly dedicated in many ways (I don’t have the time to play as much as many players, though, which is fine.) If getting Ascended was as easy as getting Exotics (which is what I believe you think they are-easy to obtain for casuals) then they would have no purpose in the game

Ascended wasn’t created for casuals, but to appease players who thought the game had “no progression” for them to strive forwards. That meant Fractals progression. I would add, there’s no need for Ascended outside the Fractals, though of course at least it offers most players a few more stats to strive forwards if they so wish. But they are not casual friendly at all-especially if you like to experiment and tweak with builds, even with one character alone. Casual players could do better (IMHO) by not bothering with them, for there’s not much to be gained and they can lose focus if it’s not a fun grind for them to participate in. In short, Exotics aren’t grindy and are more representative of their original plan-which obviously didn’t pan out as well as they had hoped-but fractals are, because it was made for people who are more open to grind and “progress” (I would wager ANet will deny this, but they also confirmed it with that “dedicated players” comment.)

(I have like 456-7 Weaponsmithing ankitten ot even caring about that. Just wanted to explore it and found it too expensive to get to 500, so I will just let it happen over months rather than worry about something I don’t need to have fun-perhaps it was made with another type of player in mind, and definitely not “casual” by any stretch of the imagination.)

Why does everyone trot out the “tweak and experiment with builds” line like BiS is required to accomplish any kind of experimentation or tweak.

Ascended items don’t even have rune-slots kitten .

Because it makes sense to experiment with different stat combos-ascended items have plenty to choose (though they have omitted Valkyrie and others, they even have some odd combinations.) Masterwork or even rare items aren’t as good platforms to experiment vs Exotic (which Ascended are only slightly superior to), and some players would like to have several types of stat combos available. If you disagree with this, my apologies for offending you in this way, but many players do like to play around with different playstyles according to gear and build choices.

And the ascended items don’t even have rune slots “kitten” statement is not true-they have just been pre-chosen for you.

Anyway, my stance still remains-not worth to bother not having full Ascended ANY stat, for Exotics shall suffice and are currently rather easy to obtain. Ascended was made for people who like/enjoy to grind, not for casual gameplay. It’s OK for GW2 to cater to many types of players, though I honestly believe that the “tr00 hardcore” will find even Ascended “too limiting” while not offering enough “progression.”

Astralporing.1957:

Mackdose.6504:

And we’re going to ignore the following quote from July 2013:

Colin Johanson:

(snip)
Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.

So, what was this thread about again?

The fact that what they said will happen and what is happening do not match? Because ascended weapons (and armor, when it gets in) do mean invalidating what i have earned so far (at least as far as having a BiS is concerned).

Also, see that again he said about not introducing new tiers every 3-6 months. I can believe that – after all ascended tier introduction is staggered for almost a whole year already (and will be slightly over a year when it is fully released). So, no, not every 3-6 months. Every 1-2 years however? Now, that is quite likely.

And they can always increase the level cap from time to time, to introduce a healthy variance.

Colin did state at PAX that they are happy with the gear tiers that they have now, that they do not foresee the need for another tier anytime in the near future, and that we blew them out of the water with how quickly we aquired exotics. They have a ‘time goal’ for how long it should take someone to achieve BiS gear, which makes sense all games function in such manner. They felt exotics were too easy, so they gave us ascended. I’m sure part of that decision was influenced by the out cry for more grind at the time as well, so we’re partly to blame.

As I’ve pointed out in another thread, rare to exotic is also VP, but very few had any type of issue with that, and exotics required at least some grind to obtain them as well. Had the game launched with ascended at the final stepping stone to legendaries, I honestly feel that we wouldn’t have the outcry we have currently. People would have accepted it (for the most part) and started working toward it at the birth of their characters, rather than ‘after’ they were done.

haviz.1340:

Mackdose.6504:

As for gear-gated content, the PvE is balanced around rares. Until 80 rares no longer complete content, “power creep” in this game is a bogeyman.

Who told you that?

I’ve deduced it from the fact that prestige armor is rare, and full rare is the tipping point where you go from getting scraped by mobs in Orr to mowing them down.

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve deduced it from the fact that prestige armor is rare, and full rare is the tipping point where you go from getting scraped by mobs in Orr to mowing them down.

So basically you pull that out.

haviz.1340:

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve deduced it from the fact that prestige armor is rare, and full rare is the tipping point where you go from getting scraped by mobs in Orr to mowing them down.

So basically you pull that out.

No, it’s an educated guess based on the relative strength of 80 zones and base 80 rewards.

I mean the last PS mission gives you a rare for a reward, all of the faction skins are rare, the cultural armor is rare.

What do you think the endgame content is balanced around baseline? Exotics?

Mackdose.6504:

No, it’s an educated guess based on the relative strength of 80 zones and base 80 rewards.

I mean the last PS mission gives you a rare for a reward, all of the faction skins are rare, the cultural armor is rare.

What do you think the endgame content is balanced around baseline? Exotics?

Downscaling assumes you should have exotics from level 60 and rares from level 35 (can’t recall exact numbers) to be downscaled properly to lower levels.

That’s a fact, not an educated guess.

Mackdose.6504:

haviz.1340:

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve deduced it from the fact that prestige armor is rare, and full rare is the tipping point where you go from getting scraped by mobs in Orr to mowing them down.

So basically you pull that out.

No, it’s an educated guess based on the relative strength of 80 zones and base 80 rewards.

I mean the last PS mission gives you a rare for a reward, all of the faction skins are rare, the cultural armor is rare.

What do you think the endgame content is balanced around baseline? Exotics?

He does have a point.

In my opinion, the additional power creep on exotics tends to make things a tad too easy. Especially when you start goinf back to lower level zones. I 2 shot things in rares, exotics make me cry….

haviz.1340:

Mackdose.6504:

No, it’s an educated guess based on the relative strength of 80 zones and base 80 rewards.

I mean the last PS mission gives you a rare for a reward, all of the faction skins are rare, the cultural armor is rare.

What do you think the endgame content is balanced around baseline? Exotics?

Downscaling assumes you should have exotics from level 60 and rares from level 35 (can’t recall exact numbers) to be downscaled properly to lower levels.

That’s a fact, not an educated guess.

Where did you find this information?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Mackdose.6504:

haviz.1340:

Mackdose.6504:

I’ve deduced it from the fact that prestige armor is rare, and full rare is the tipping point where you go from getting scraped by mobs in Orr to mowing them down.

So basically you pull that out.

No, it’s an educated guess based on the relative strength of 80 zones and base 80 rewards.

I mean the last PS mission gives you a rare for a reward, all of the faction skins are rare, the cultural armor is rare.

What do you think the endgame content is balanced around baseline? Exotics?

He does have a point.

In my opinion, the additional power creep on exotics tends to make things a tad too easy. Especially when you start goinf back to lower level zones. I 2 shot things in rares, exotics make me cry….

Pretty much this.

Once I got my exotic weapons I was mopping the floor with every non-instance part of PvE. My gear isn’t even optimized.

I can only imagine ascended weapons make PvE laughably easy.

Ashabhi.1365:

2. High level Fractals

I know nothing about Fractals. I have stepped through the portal once in my whole GW2 life, and that was to say that I saw it once. I have guildies that thrive on them, however, and what they have to me leads me to believe that after a certain point, if you don’t have Ascended gear, it is impossible to progress.

People got to level 80 Fractals using exotic gear.

Nothing in Fractals requires you to have full Ascended.

I think that this 10% damage increase happens only in full berserker gear, since we all know that berserker is op and need nerf. Other kinds of builds like soldier’s cleric’s conditions etc will not get that much damage increase. In wvw i notice that almost everyone wears soldier gear so ascended will not have that much impact.

The most impact will happen in dungeon’s speedclears because of the full berserker meta.

Dante.1508:

TL:DR Damage gain is around 10.3%

So in real game terms about another *2300? damage? with crits upwards of *2800 -3000?

*Guessing as i saw 5% was an extra 1000ish damage on another thread..

I dante

mrauls.6519:

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Anyone who truly understands vertical progression, i.e., a state where power is positively related to time, understands that following the path of the power curve is non-optional.

Vanthian.9267:

Now…. The targets this Thief will be attacking will be full berserker as well.
Which means they will have the base toughness for their respective armor group.

Heavy Armor: 2,127 armor
Medium Armor: 1,980 armor
Light Armor: 1,836

We will also assume none of the targets have protection.

The damage formula for this game is….
Damage done = (Weapon Strength) * Power * (skill coefficient) / (targets armor)

For the example shown here we will be using Backstab skill coefficient which is….
1.2 from the front, or 2.4 from the back. We will always assume max.

This leads us to the actual calculation of the damage on the different targets. The stats needed are Power, Weapon strength, skill coefficient and targets armor.
We will assume the Thief will use the standard setup for the attack. When approaching the target right before he steals & CnD he will pop all his signets. This will give him 20 stacks of might. That is 700 power and +15% damage from the signet. We will also assume ideal conditions for his damage traits except for trait (XI) in the Critical Strikes line. We will also assume he has charged up his bloodlust stacks from the sigil.

Exotic Stat Recap and Damage Calculations
Weapon Damage: 984, Power: 3,239, Skill Coefficient: 2.4, Critical Damage: 104%
First Target: 2,127 armor Damage Done~ 3,596 if Critical~9,134
Second Target: 1,980 armor Damage Done~3,863 if Critical~9,812
Third Target: 1,836 armor Damage Done~4,166 if Critical~10,582

Ascended Stat Recap and Damage Calculations
Weapon Damage: 1,030, Power: 3,309, Skill Coefficient: 2.4, Critical Damage: 112%
First Target: 2,127 armor Damage Done~3,846 if Critical~10,077
Second Target: 1,980 armor Damage Done~4,131 if Critical~10,823
Third Target: 1,836 armor Damage Done~4,kitten if Critical~11,672

Comparing the two critical hits together for each target:
Target 1: 10,077/9,134 ~10.3% damage difference
Target 2: 10,823/9,812 ~10.3% damage difference
Target 3: 11,672/10,582 ~10.3% damage difference

Now you can add in the +35% damage the Thief would have if you want (for example on the Ascended Third Target he would deal ~15,757) but it will not change the percentage at which Ascended increase the damage over Exotics.

So in closing, THE OVERALL DAMAGE INCREASE FROM EXOTIC TO CURRENTLY AVAILABLE ASCENDED GEAR IS ROUGHLY 10.3%.

TL:DR Damage gain is around 10.3%

Good job OP. Thanks for the time you put into this to prove the ascended defenders on their spot (usually farmers).

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

again, using the word ‘by’ in the context of gaming 2 other definitions of the word make more sense for an MMO game.

Again, the definition of “by” you want to insist on is not valid in the context here. Not valid. Period.

Wow. Can’t believe we’re even discussing something this stupid and obvious. I’m done responding to your trolls.

Also, just so new visitors to the thread don’t miss it…

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

So we’re going to give weight to this quote, which was a year before the game’s release and has a disclaimer in it. (see bolded text)

And we’re going to ignore the following quote from July 2013:

Colin Johanson:

Progression Advancement

One of the core points we addressed back in January but didn’t provide specifics on yet related to progression.

We’ve seen a lot of questions in regards to this after the release of ascended gear: What will the core reward system be for Guild Wars 2 in the future after ascended gear has all been released? We specifically said we don’t want to get caught up in the trap where every 3-6 months the game adds another tier of gear to the game; that invalidates all your hard work and the rewards you’ve earned.

So what are we going to do instead?

New Skill and Traits

We’ll begin regularly adding new skills and traits to the game for each profession to expand your characters and builds! You will be able to earn these new traits and skills by unlocking them. To go along with this, we’ll expand the content and options to earn skill points to help encourage players to experience different challenges and content throughout the world. These skills and traits will be designed to be balanced with the existing skills/traits we currently have in the game, and will simply compliment and expand the range of abilities and tactics available to each profession. Both WvW and PvE players can acquire skills and traits, and additional means of earning skill points will be addressed for both core content areas.

The regular addition of skills and traits that you can earn as you play provides us an extremely stable, easily expandable reward system that fits neatly into the pillars of progression and advancement that Guild Wars 2 are all about. Your character will be able to grow and change for years to come without invalidating everything you’ve earned so far.

Emphasis mine.

So, what was this thread about again?

This thread is about vertical progression. Anet said, “we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.” CW.

That shallow power curve has brought us to a ~10% increase in power in less than a year. Yes, they have mentioned skill progression being added to the game at some point. They have, however, never said that vertical progression will be removed from the game. It will be an issue, and you will see threads like this one, until it is removed. So, yeah, this thread is about vertical progression.

Casmurro.9046:

I think that this 10% damage increase happens only in full berserker gear, since we all know that berserker is op and need nerf. Other kinds of builds like soldier’s cleric’s conditions etc will not get that much damage increase. In wvw i notice that almost everyone wears soldier gear so ascended will not have that much impact.

The most impact will happen in dungeon’s speedclears because of the full berserker meta.

5% is from the weapon damage increase alone. Stat increase for primary power sets (that is for Soldier as well) will be another 2-3%.
Zerker damage increase, by the way, will be bigger than 10.3%, because OP again ignored increase in critical hit chance and just compared pure full crit damage to each other.
So, “not much” will end up being (depending on build) anything from 5% for pure bunker, 7-8% for hybrids, to over 10% increase for zerkers. Before armor is added to the mix (and armor will, in addition to stats, increase by 2-4% damage reduction to further shift balance away from exotics).
Yes, definitely noone’s going to notice that [/sarcasm]

Raine.1394:

mrauls.6519:

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Anyone who truly understands vertical progression, i.e., a state where power is positively related to time, understands that following the path of the power curve is non-optional.

Only if the content follows the same power curve, which outside of fractals, it doesn’t.

(Yet.)

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

mrauls.6519:

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Anyone who truly understands vertical progression, i.e., a state where power is positively related to time, understands that following the path of the power curve is non-optional.

Only if the content follows the same power curve, which outside of fractals, it doesn’t.

(Yet.)

That’s where you’re wrong.. : PvP.

Casmurro.9046:

I think that this 10% damage increase happens only in full berserker gear, since we all know that berserker is op and need nerf. Other kinds of builds like soldier’s cleric’s conditions etc will not get that much damage increase. In wvw i notice that almost everyone wears soldier gear so ascended will not have that much impact.

The most impact will happen in dungeon’s speedclears because of the full berserker meta.

You are correct that, if Berserker’s is the highest power pre-ascended, that stat combo will be the highest power post-ascended.

What you need to understand about vertical progression is that it describes an increase in power to the game, not simply any given stat combo. All stat combos post ascended will simply have the same relationship to all other stat combos pre ascended. What has actually happened is that the game itself has increased in power and that is the significance of vertical progression. And, anyone foolishly choosing not to follow the path of the power curve will be disadvantaged versus those who have chosen to follow it. So far, that disadvantage will be by around 10%. But, remember, vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

mrauls.6519:

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Anyone who truly understands vertical progression, i.e., a state where power is positively related to time, understands that following the path of the power curve is non-optional.

Only if the content follows the same power curve, which outside of fractals, it doesn’t.

(Yet.)

Well, let’s say the calculations above are correct and we’re dealing with a 10% increase in power. Do you suppose that the current power level of the game (here 10% higher year over year) will not be a factor in overall game balancing? Of course it will.

Let’s suppose further that VP continues at it current rate, and that’s what VP does, it progresses vertically. So, in another year it will be a 20% increase in power. Can’t you just hear the cries about content being too easy by then? I do, and of course the power level of the environment will follow and correspond to the power level of the players.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

mrauls.6519:

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Anyone who truly understands vertical progression, i.e., a state where power is positively related to time, understands that following the path of the power curve is non-optional.

Only if the content follows the same power curve, which outside of fractals, it doesn’t.

(Yet.)

Well, let’s say the calculations above are correct and we’re dealing with a 10% increase in power. Do you suppose that the current power level of the game (here 10% higher year over year) will not be a factor in overall game balancing? Of course it will.

The difficulty of PvE isn’t provided by damage and defense numbers, like WoW or any other treadmill game. It’s provided by dodge or die heavy hits and environmental mechanics.

That makes the power curve on gear irrelevant in relation to boss and mob difficulty.

Let’s suppose further that VP continues at it current rate, and that’s what VP does, it progresses vertically. So, in another year it will be a 20% increase in power. Can’t you just hear the cries about content being too easy by then? I do, and of course the power level of the environment will follow and correspond to the power level of the players.

The power level of the environment isn’t bound by the formula that trinity-based games are, there’s no mob power increase to match the gear curve. Therefore what you’re saying isn’t coming true thus far.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

mrauls.6519:

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Anyone who truly understands vertical progression, i.e., a state where power is positively related to time, understands that following the path of the power curve is non-optional.

Only if the content follows the same power curve, which outside of fractals, it doesn’t.

(Yet.)

Well, let’s say the calculations above are correct and we’re dealing with a 10% increase in power. Do you suppose that the current power level of the game (here 10% higher year over year) will not be a factor in overall game balancing? Of course it will.

The difficulty of PvE isn’t provided by damage and defense numbers, like WoW or any other treadmill game. It’s provided by dodge or die heavy hits and environmental mechanics.

That makes the power curve on gear irrelevant in relation to boss and mob difficulty.

Let’s suppose further that VP continues at it current rate, and that’s what VP does, it progresses vertically. So, in another year it will be a 20% increase in power. Can’t you just hear the cries about content being too easy by then? I do, and of course the power level of the environment will follow and correspond to the power level of the players.

The power level of the environment isn’t bound by the formula that trinity-based games are, there’s no mob power increase to match the gear curve. Therefore what you’re saying isn’t coming true thus far.

It has nothing to do with our ability to dodge or trinity-based games. Game balancing simply has to do, ultimately, with game power and stats. What we are talking about in any encounter is a race to deplete an opponents HP. Winning is depleting an opponents HP before yours is depleted. And, of course, power is what forms the basis for depleting an opponents HP. The higher the power, the quicker that HP will be depleted. This is what you balance for, among other things, in a game. And, as the power level of the game rises, it would be silly not to balance the environment with the power level of the player base. Player to player and player to environment are what we are talking about in pvp/pve balance. It’s silly to suggest that they don’t need to or won’t balance PvE as the players increase in power.

I’ve never done the math on this, but this is pretty discouraging. The level playing field on armor was one of the main reasons I came to this game and have continued with it.

I think A-Net is testing the waters to see how much new gear they can add before the potential retention value is offset by the number of players who leave/encourage others to leave after being upset at the gear treadmill.

Now, I know that there’s not much good in knocking ascended gear unless there’s a better alternative, so here’s what I recommend: Add more difficult to attain armor skins.

As it stands now, pretty much every armor design can be attained relatively easily. The legendary skins for weapons was a big success, but armor needs something like this as well. It doesn’t have to have better stats to attract interest (remember FoW/UW armor from GW1?).

Since release, the only new armor skins that have been added are either the occaisional holiday/event item or gem store armor skins, but if you want to keep players engaged without pushing them to become enraged, give them new armor skins that are attainable, but difficult to attain.

tl;dr: The whole benefit of taking a gear strategy like GW1 has is allowing people to stay interested by putting in hard to attain gear designs while making the stats easy to attain. Unfortunately, this is the opposite of what is happening now.

Ashanor.5319:

I agree about Ascended gear being a mistake. They should have never added it in the first place. I can deal with Ascended gear, even though I think it is bad for the game. If they ever say they are adding another tier I will be gone though.

I am with you one hundred percent.

As there was no monthly fee I had no problem occasionally paying real money for gems. After Ascended was announced they haven’t received another penny from me. I’ve learned to be thrifty and when needed and/or desired I now convert in-game gold to gems.

In addition to my comments in forums like these I am protesting in the only other way I know how. If other players join me in this approach then that will force ArenaNet to finally listen.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

mrauls.6519:

Guess it’s good to stay up to date in gear

Anyone who truly understands vertical progression, i.e., a state where power is positively related to time, understands that following the path of the power curve is non-optional.

Only if the content follows the same power curve, which outside of fractals, it doesn’t.

(Yet.)

Well, let’s say the calculations above are correct and we’re dealing with a 10% increase in power. Do you suppose that the current power level of the game (here 10% higher year over year) will not be a factor in overall game balancing? Of course it will.

The difficulty of PvE isn’t provided by damage and defense numbers, like WoW or any other treadmill game. It’s provided by dodge or die heavy hits and environmental mechanics.

That makes the power curve on gear irrelevant in relation to boss and mob difficulty.

Let’s suppose further that VP continues at it current rate, and that’s what VP does, it progresses vertically. So, in another year it will be a 20% increase in power. Can’t you just hear the cries about content being too easy by then? I do, and of course the power level of the environment will follow and correspond to the power level of the players.

The power level of the environment isn’t bound by the formula that trinity-based games are, there’s no mob power increase to match the gear curve. Therefore what you’re saying isn’t coming true thus far.

It has nothing to do with our ability to dodge or trinity-based games. Game balancing simply has to do, ultimately, with game power and stats. What we are talking about in any encounter is a race to deplete an opponents HP. Winning is depleting an opponents HP before yours is depleted. And, of course, power is what forms the basis for depleting an opponents HP. The higher the power, the quicker that HP will be depleted. This is what you balance for, among other things, in a game. And, as the power level of the game rises, it would be silly not to balance the environment with the power level of the player base. Player to player and player to environment are what we are talking about in pvp/pve balance. It’s silly to suggest that they don’t need to or won’t balance PvE as the players increase in power.

Wow.

Giant HP bags are basically timers that say “The better your gear is, the less time you have to make a mistake and fail.”

The bosses in this game can always 2 or 3 shot you, no matter what gear you’re in.

If you don’t see how dodge or die mechanics relate to the power level of the game, you shouldn’t be having this discussion.

Henri Blanche.8276:

If other players join me in this approach then that will force ArenaNet to finally listen.

If only it were true. Sad when you think of what the reality is. You’ll have people say “Yeah!” and then next LS update something will come up for 800 gems and they’ll jump on it. Not all, but many will. And that’s still revenue, no matter how small.

Mackdose.6504:

Wow.

Giant HP bags are basically timers that say “The better your gear is, the less time to have to make a mistake and fail.”

The bosses in this game can always 2 or 3 shot you, no matter what gear you’re in.

If you don’t see how dodge or die mechanics relate to the power level of the game, you shouldn’t be having this discussion.

Clearly shown by the “stack and spank” mentality that most bosses/legendaries in this game have, correct?

Skan.5301:

Henri Blanche.8276:

If other players join me in this approach then that will force ArenaNet to finally listen.

If only it were true. Sad when you think of what the reality is. You’ll have people say “Yeah!” and then next LS update something will come up for 800 gems and they’ll jump on it. Not all, but many will. And that’s still revenue, no matter how small.

Mackdose.6504:

Wow.

Giant HP bags are basically timers that say “The better your gear is, the less time to have to make a mistake and fail.”

The bosses in this game can always 2 or 3 shot you, no matter what gear you’re in.

If you don’t see how dodge or die mechanics relate to the power level of the game, you shouldn’t be having this discussion.

Clearly shown by the “stack and spank” mentality that most bosses/legendaries in this game have, correct?

Fractals/Explorables? You know… hard PvE content?

Mackdose.6504:

Skan.5301:

Henri Blanche.8276:

If other players join me in this approach then that will force ArenaNet to finally listen.

If only it were true. Sad when you think of what the reality is. You’ll have people say “Yeah!” and then next LS update something will come up for 800 gems and they’ll jump on it. Not all, but many will. And that’s still revenue, no matter how small.

Mackdose.6504:

Wow.

Giant HP bags are basically timers that say “The better your gear is, the less time to have to make a mistake and fail.”

The bosses in this game can always 2 or 3 shot you, no matter what gear you’re in.

If you don’t see how dodge or die mechanics relate to the power level of the game, you shouldn’t be having this discussion.

Clearly shown by the “stack and spank” mentality that most bosses/legendaries in this game have, correct?

Fractals/Explorables? You know… hard PvE content?

I’m actually not talking about just hard PvE content; I’m talking about all PvE content. As the power level of the game rises in terms of the player base, it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever not to balance the environment to the players with corresponding adjustments to power, health, etc. While not the only aspect, this is certainly the most basic aspect of game balance. To argue otherwise is simply to misunderstand gaming.

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Skan.5301:

Henri Blanche.8276:

If other players join me in this approach then that will force ArenaNet to finally listen.

If only it were true. Sad when you think of what the reality is. You’ll have people say “Yeah!” and then next LS update something will come up for 800 gems and they’ll jump on it. Not all, but many will. And that’s still revenue, no matter how small.

Mackdose.6504:

Wow.

Giant HP bags are basically timers that say “The better your gear is, the less time to have to make a mistake and fail.”

The bosses in this game can always 2 or 3 shot you, no matter what gear you’re in.

If you don’t see how dodge or die mechanics relate to the power level of the game, you shouldn’t be having this discussion.

Clearly shown by the “stack and spank” mentality that most bosses/legendaries in this game have, correct?

Fractals/Explorables? You know… hard PvE content?

I’m actually not talking about just hard PvE content; I’m talking about all PvE content. As the power level of the game rises in terms of the player base, it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever not to balance the environment to the players with corresponding adjustments to power, health, etc. While not the only aspect, this is certainly the most basic aspect of game balance. To argue otherwise is simply to misunderstand gaming.

For what you’re saying to be true, though, we’d have to already be at a point where ascended gear is balanced with the overall PvE content. It isn’t, it’s overkill. Exotic gear already over-powers 1v5 mob confrontations at 80. If this power shift you’re talking about was going to happen, it already would have.

Mob power in the open world isn’t scaling with player gear. Then again, open world bosses are beaten with player zergs and not gear.

Mackdose.6504:

Where did you find this information?

Empirical tests.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Skan.5301:

Henri Blanche.8276:

If other players join me in this approach then that will force ArenaNet to finally listen.

If only it were true. Sad when you think of what the reality is. You’ll have people say “Yeah!” and then next LS update something will come up for 800 gems and they’ll jump on it. Not all, but many will. And that’s still revenue, no matter how small.

Mackdose.6504:

Wow.

Giant HP bags are basically timers that say “The better your gear is, the less time to have to make a mistake and fail.”

The bosses in this game can always 2 or 3 shot you, no matter what gear you’re in.

If you don’t see how dodge or die mechanics relate to the power level of the game, you shouldn’t be having this discussion.

Clearly shown by the “stack and spank” mentality that most bosses/legendaries in this game have, correct?

Fractals/Explorables? You know… hard PvE content?

I’m actually not talking about just hard PvE content; I’m talking about all PvE content. As the power level of the game rises in terms of the player base, it would make absolutely no sense whatsoever not to balance the environment to the players with corresponding adjustments to power, health, etc. While not the only aspect, this is certainly the most basic aspect of game balance. To argue otherwise is simply to misunderstand gaming.

For what you’re saying to be true, though, we’d have to already be at a point where ascended gear is balanced with the overall PvE content. It isn’t, it’s overkill. Exotic gear already over-powers 1v5 mob confrontations at 80. If this power shift you’re talking about was going to happen, it already would have.

Mob power in the open world isn’t scaling with player gear. Then again, open world bosses are beaten with player zergs and not gear.

Haha. If ascended is “overkill”, and players are generally in ascended gear, that would mean the game is currently imbalanced and in need of balancing, which is exactly my point. It’s the current power level of the game that is used in determining and adjusting game balance. If players are OP, the environment will be buffed in order to make gameplay properly challenging. If Ascended gear makes the game trivial, then that would simply indicate that the environment is in need of a buff. Again, this is pretty basic stuff we’re dealing with here in terms of game balance.

runing dungeons and fractual with groups with legendaries and ascended in my super outdated full exotic gear and not a single soul complained or even noticed the difference.