Guild Wars 2

chemiclord.3978:

Twyll Blackleaf.9641:

chemiclord.3978:

Since we’re playing on that “highly logical” extreme.

McDonalds would probably kick you out of the store long before two years to eat the burger you paid for. Just sayin’…

This feature film has been modified in proportion and duration to fit on your TV.

But it’s why I really dislike the “what if this was a restaurant?” analogy.

It’s beyond apples and oranges. It’s apples and streetcars. What is acceptable business for consumable goods is FAR different than reusable products. Of course your analogy sounds silly… because there’s absolutely no logical reason for the policies of either to overlap. The analogy is lost not because the logic of either side is unsound… but because the logic of either is completely and inherently incompatible to begin with. You CAN’T run a restaurant like a software company in any tangible way.

A much more accurate analogy, personally, would be equivalent to the shift from analog to digital TV. The change was GOING to happen, no matter how much previous adapters liked it or not. They even complained about buying a new analog set if companies KNEW it was going to change soon.

But that was going to happen no matter what. There was always going to be an unfortunate overlap somewhere, no matter WHEN they pulled the trigger. And at the end of the day, the best TV providers could do was offer a compromise while the transition was in place.

Because the transition was going to happen, and for the bulk of the customers base, it HAD to, and it wasn’t feasible to keep both methods running forever. At some point, analog signals HAD to go down permanently.

I see this as very similar. Arena.net is completely revamping how “town clothes” work… and it just isn’t realistic for them to have two completely different systems. It’s unfortunate that it’s upsetting people, but it’s unavoidable. I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to deal with it… or go somewhere else if you can’t.

This is also a terrible analogy because the revamp itself is awful. It’s like if they went from analog tv to digital but removed every TV channel except one.
But it’s okay, because they will show lots of different shows on that one channel! Nevermind that you liked having several channels to choose from. This is just as good, we promise! You just have to give our one superchannel a try!

edited a few times because I type faster than my brain can move and I can’t analogy till I have my ducks in a row ><

Wow, so I read that the halloween/wintersday/pirate/cook costumes will not be refundable because they’re not becoming tonics.

The wintersday outfit I specifically bought to mix and match, I hate the full outfit.

Thanks for the bait and switch, Arenanet will never get another dime from me.

I am in a state of acceptance now that, no matter how many posts are made, the decision is final – however, I do not feel like those of us that are unhappy are being treated very fairly, and certainly not like valued customers. The message here is patronizing, like one would do for a child: “Trust us – we took away the toys you paid for, but you’ll thank us later when you see what other newer, better toys we offer to sell you someday.” And while I can understand the want to be patronizing towards some in this thread given the less-than-mature outbursts of a few posters, I think the rest of us deserve better than that.

Perhaps the outfits going forward will indeed be better. Perhaps Colin is right and we will like them, and that looking back we will also conclude and agree that the new approach is better than the last. But that doesn’t change that, right now, they have done everyone who has purchased town clothes a disservice, and that they have done so with little warning, bumbled the explanation and apology, and have still not offered a promise of making it up to the players that they have wronged financially.

It is this part that makes me feel uneasy about making any further purchases in the gem store. If we cannot feel certain that ANet will make every effort to apologize and make things right when their development plans leave their players with gemstore items that are nothing like what they paid for, then why should I purchase anything there again? Why should anyone purchase anything there again, when tomorrow we could be told “too bad, you wasted your money” with zero confidence that we will be compensated?

And I speak as a person that buys her gemstore items with cash, because I believe that given the volume of time I spend on the game, it is only right to show my appreciation for that. If this game had a subscription option, I would be on it. I have been a fan of this franchise and the company for a long time. While I know that having spent hundreds of dollars over the past few years doesn’t mean that I deserve anything in particular in return, seeing now the way I am treated as a customer leaves me with a bitter taste. I will likely not forget it.

Even if the new costume system will be better, I don’t see myself purchasing them, even if I might want to. I don’t have any confidence that, if I did, I wouldn’t be right back here in another six months when the best-laid development plans fall short and everything changes, leaving more customers holding the bag full of things that they paid for, but can no longer use the way it was promised.

I will still play the game, though; this is no “goodbye cruel world” post where I make some silly and reckless claim that this change is enough to drive me out for good. I still love this game and I love the time that I spend in it with my friends and guildmates. I still like most of the changes that are made, and I think the developers do have a vision of good things to come for GW2. I just don’t know how much I’ll bother spending on items in the gem store ever again if the players that did purchase these items are not issued a real apology and are not compensated accordingly.

The floor is yours.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

We do understand and sincerely apologize that there are creative combinations of town clothes that will not exist anymore. Many have asked why remove town clothes as a concept. It boils down to we believe better armor skinning and the outfit system is something we can add more options to more often and will produce a better supported RP game for everyone with more variety in the future. In short, a healthier game.

But complete, unchangeable outfits are boring, they aren’t interesting options. I would most likely never buy an outfit if I knew I couldn’t customize it.

I was hoping for so many more town clothing pieces to come to the store, to allow us to look more like “normal citizens” for those times hanging around in the city: simple jeans, nice skirts, blouses, turtle-necks, dresses, all kinds of different shoes … buying one single outfit with these shoes and this dress and this blouse and you can’t change it and will look like every other barbie doll out there … that’s not interesting, it’s not enticing.

It’s also not good for RP. Would make for some pretty awkward RP situations if everyone was wearing the exact same thing, wouldn’kitten ^^

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Clothing was meant to offer visual options that break the class roles, however we were never completely happy with the way it was isolated from the rest of the game

But we were! That is exactly what I wanted from town clothes, and what I got. My main is a guardian as well, and heavy armor obviously always looks heavy and uncomfortable. Nothing you would want to wear in your free time, at home, in the city. That’s why I really loved the idea and implementation of town clothes as they were. My guardian was wearing her heavy armor in combat when she needed it to protect herself, but in all other circumstances she was able to walk around in light clothing, just like a regular woman would.

I have no desire to wear town clothes in combat. I mean, if it’s possible to do that and keep the old functionality, then I’m certainly not against it. But replacing something we liked with something many of us never asked for and don’t even want, that feels really bad.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Additionally, every time we added something to town-clothes, it didn’t really help someone building their light, medium, or heavy look.

No, but it helped us building our town clothes. Is the RP community really that small? And if it is, does it mean that our wishes are irrelevant, just because we’re small? You created a beautiful game with the most beautiful and detailed cities I’ve ever seen in an MMO game. Not everything has to do with rawwwwwwwr combat. Just because most players are more interested in bashing heads and never step back to actually look at and enjoy your cities and feel at home there, doesn’t mean that those of us who do should be ignored, shouldn’kitten

Curtis Johnson.8456:

When we started looking at bringing more of the clothing back into armor with mix and match styles there are some fundamental incompatible things between weight classes. (part of how we set up every armor to allow many dye channels and styles per piece).. There really is no way at this point over six years since we started development to make absolutely everything work together. So we needed something new to continue to grow in the future.

Why can’t the wintersday outfit work with the earmuffs? I wear that combination a lot in-game, and it works perfectly fine. No clipping whatsoever. It’s one of my favorite combinations, and the wintersday outfit will lose a LOT of its appeal to me if I won’t be able to combine it with the earmuffs after the patch. Not to mention, the earmuffs will lose all of their appeal for me in that case. What would I ever want to do with a pair of earmuffs that can’t be usefully combined with anything? Wear them with Tier 3? That makes no sense.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Outfits give us a way to create highly stylized looks that aren’t constrained to armor slots or weight class. In addition to armor skins that are easier and cheaper to collect across characters and the account dye system we do believe the options across a players whole account are much more attractive now. You’ll see more outfits coming out this summer and additions to the game more often usable by your characters.

But uncustomizable outfits are not attractive. You had a great system, which would have made me buy lots of new town clothes (especially with new account bound functionality), but I will not buy outfits that have 1 unchangeable look and can’t be combined with anything else. I’m sorry, but that is just boring.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

As always we ask you to try out the new system of customization and see what’s available to you. I think many people will be surprised by how many pieces have become armor compatible.

But I’m not interested in town clothes being armor compatible, for the most part anyways. Fluffy quaggan hats are super cute in combination with my wintersday outfit, or when goofing around town, but I wouldn’t want to wear them in combat. Especially not on any heavy armor classes.

The only town clothes I might have wanted to combine with (light) armor were the cherry blossom shirts, yet they a) were removed before I could buy them, b) appear to be made into tonics. Why? I’m sorry, who in their right mind would want a tonic of a blouse you can’t dye? I have more tonics than I care to use anyways. :/

I really hope there will be a way to retain the current functionality of town clothes. Make all the other changes you want to, make them combat ready, make tonics, just keep the old system in addition to that for those of us who really want to. Make it a switch in the menu if you must, so that those not interested in the old town clothes system won’t even have their hero panel “cluttered up” with it. Please.

chemiclord.3978:

Oh, I’m reasonably certain that’s EXACTLY it.

With the new system, the only thing they have to worry about is each outfit being compatible with itself. They don’t have to make each mesh be somewhat compatible with every other piece of different outfits (which is destined to fail at some level).

It’s cheaper in terms of development, which is most likely the primary reason for the change. I honestly do not believe town clothes were the hot seller that the people in this thread want to believe it was. If town clothes were making Arena.net money… it wasn’t much.

So we’ll have #yolo #swag warriors in full ninja outfits during combat, but the roleplayers won’t be able to have reasonable looks out of combat anymore. That really can’t be a solution.

I’m not against arena.net selling full ninja outfits to #yoloswag warriors if that makes good money. But don’t destroy a system roleplayers (and others) loved and made good use of in the process.

I love this game and really liked those new features, including the wardrobe system .. but removing our existing town clothes combinations is ridiculous! Especially considering that people actually paid for it. I supported this game by purchasing plenty of those town clothes to mix and match amongst my characters, prefab tonics won’t cut it. My heavy armoured main character will now be deprived of regular clothes for non-combat RP and he definitely isn’t gonna use a full costume to dress like a pirate or scarecrow. Hopefully you’ll find a solution or something, by adding a ‘non-combat’ weight class in the wardrobe, to incorporate the old town cloth system.

Not cool!

Appropriate, and now healthier.

Interesting.

I enjoyed the town clothes, but mostly for specific occasions or for my heavy armor classes. As a role player, having a character wear heavy armor all the time didn’t make sense. Furthermore, for a female, it is very difficult to find armor that isn’t scantily clad.

If the town clothes will no longer function as I had purchased them to then I will be disappointed, but understanding. This is a game, yes, but it’s also a business and you need to make money, fair enough. I do ask, however, that you have already considered the need to mix armor classes or at the very least allow for the creation of pieces that have more of a “Commoner” appearance, even if it’s a low level item. Something you could wear to a gathering at a tea shoppe, or something of that nature.

It would be an agreeable compromise at least.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

(snip)

Well, many people have already explained why this decision was wrong and why must be changed. I really hope this is being taken into consideration, because this explanations has been done (mostly) in a very respectful, clear and clever way by the players.

The only thing I want to remark is that all the reasoning Curtis gave has nothing to do with the removal of the current Town Clothes system. I mean, everything you implement to give us that customization options, is fully compatible with having a Town Clothes attire as is right now. Single item outfits, and tonics to use with armors, and all the transmutation system can be there and still have a tab for wearing the town clothes, not messing with this aspect of the game many players enjoy. Create a tonic AND create the clothes item, and give people both items. Everybody happy.

In fact, this is a very good way to make clothes much more appealing. If you can use them as tonic, as an outfit for combat and as town clothes with mix and match options, the value of this items will be greater and I’m sure many more players would be MUCH more interested in spending money to buy this kind of items. And everybody will be happy. It’s a win-win situation, not that hard to understand and to implement, since all the hard work is already done in some way or another (tonics created, town clothes tab existing…)

Please, read about this, think about it and tell us if at least you are considering to rethink something of this to save us from this frustration.

I would thank Curtis for his reply but it has left me really sad. So not only they’re not going to do anything to change it in this update, they don’t even plan to change ANYTHING in the future. So sad. And that “you’re going to like it!” sounds so much like a father trying to convince a son to eat his vegetables!. Well. Maybe I will like it, but I doubt it. Why? Because I don’t like outfits I can’t combine.

For those who didn’t like the awesome burger analogy, I have another.

Imagine ANET decides people who complains about having three kinds or armor types are right, so they decide to unify the armors. But they can’t do that the way it is now, because so difficult to combine them!!! Then they decide the only real armors are heavy ones, so the other classes will disappear. You have a Mesmer? Bad luck! But don’t worry, your Light armors will be released as tonics. And Medium ones will be released as complete outfits. You won’t be able to combine them but well, nobody did anyway since they all are coats, right? And if you invested money in armor skins… ah, bad luck!!! It’s an extreme example I know, but it is how I feel.

I’m not into asking things that can not be made. As I said before, I don’t see much sense into entering in combat with town clothes unless they have no stats, because I can’t imagine how a cook outfit can give the same protection than a breastplate, but if that’s what “the majority” wants, let’s them do it. I understand why there are three different armor weights, and though I’d love my Thief to be able to wear some of the beautiful light armor sets (some of them are the most similar thing to Town CLothes we will have from now on), I came up with a simple solution: I made an alt who looked exactly like my thief and even had almost the same name, but she is an Ele. That way I can wear both seths of armor.

So no, I don’t get how am I going to like this “Outfit” new thing, specially when I don’t like the town clothes complete sets either. Most of my town clothes are single pieces (hoodie, shirts, pants), which they’ve already stated they become tonics (it’s pretty clear too, the only ones they will keep are hats and gloves. Shirts and pants are too difficult for them to implement), I only have the Winter Outfit because I can separate it into pieces and the pirate one because, well, I love the look and I had the silly hope sooner or later they’d separate it too. I didn’t even consider to purchase the Halloween sets just because the same reason (and because they looked too much as armors to me).

I can’t imagine how I will end up loving complete sets of clothes I can’t separate, no matter how awesome they are (the only exception I can imagine is that they finally decide to release a noble female dress which looks like a real dress and not a Carnival of Rio costume, like some of the NPCs already have). And I have the feeling not even the hardest defensors of the “I want to use the town clothes in combat!” line will like the new feature too much.

My pesimistic side foresees that ANET will forget about us, release that town clothes system no one of us wants them to release, maybe release a couple of new outfits, see nobody buys them and finally forget town clothes forever and focus only on armor skins. That if they don’t decide to release them the same way…

My optimistic side, at least, rejoyces in all the money I will save on Gems if that happens. It’s not going to affect ANET’s economy, but it will affect mine, in a positive way.

While I would probably have fun wearing town clothes in combat, I would be more than happy to not have that functionality at all if the town clothes system stayed the same. And as others have already said, If you are concerned that town clothes won’t stylistically fit with armor classes, what is the point of making them usable in combat in the first place?

Johasthan.1327:

The only thing I want to remark is that all the reasoning Curtis gave has nothing to do with the removal of the current Town Clothes system. I mean, everything you implement to give us that customization options, is fully compatible with having a Town Clothes attire as is right now. Single item outfits, and tonics to use with armors, and all the transmutation system can be there and still have a tab for wearing the town clothes, not messing with this aspect of the game many players enjoy. Create a tonic AND create the clothes item, and give people both items. Everybody happy.

In fact, this is a very good way to make clothes much more appealing. If you can use them as tonic, as an outfit for combat and as town clothes with mix and match options, the value of this items will be greater and I’m sure many more players would be MUCH more interested in spending money to buy this kind of items. And everybody will be happy. It’s a win-win situation, not that hard to understand and to implement, since all the hard work is already done in some way or another (tonics created, town clothes tab existing…)

Please, read about this, think about it and tell us if at least you are considering to rethink something of this to save us from this frustration.

100% agree. Transmutable town clothes and “combat outfits” for those who want it, and a customizable townclothes system for those who want it. Win-win-win.

Johasthan.1327:

Curtis Johnson.8456:

(snip)

Well, many people have already explained why this decision was wrong and why must be changed. I really hope this is being taken into consideration, because this explanations has been done (mostly) in a very respectful, clear and clever way by the players.

The only thing I want to remark is that all the reasoning Curtis gave has nothing to do with the removal of the current Town Clothes system. I mean, everything you implement to give us that customization options, is fully compatible with having a Town Clothes attire as is right now. Single item outfits, and tonics to use with armors, and all the transmutation system can be there and still have a tab for wearing the town clothes, not messing with this aspect of the game many players enjoy. Create a tonic AND create the clothes item, and give people both items. Everybody happy.

In fact, this is a very good way to make clothes much more appealing. If you can use them as tonic, as an outfit for combat and as town clothes with mix and match options, the value of this items will be greater and I’m sure many more players would be MUCH more interested in spending money to buy this kind of items. And everybody will be happy. It’s a win-win situation, not that hard to understand and to implement, since all the hard work is already done in some way or another (tonics created, town clothes tab existing…)

Please, read about this, think about it and tell us if at least you are considering to rethink something of this to save us from this frustration.

Yeah I have heard 0. That is ZERO rationale for removing the current town clothes panel. You’re removing a separate paper doll of dyeable clothes that can be customized and mixed and matched, and stores our costume brawl toy.. with a single slot system on the main paper doll, and having to use an inventory space for our costume brawl toy that goes with the costumes and in some cases, replacing wearable items with tonics, that also take inventory space.

How can you do the mental gymnastics necessary to determine that that is a better system?

You know Curtis. All it would take, is to just say “due to player response, we’ve decided to go back and re-add the town clothes paper doll for people who wish to mix and match town clothes but be unable to use them in combat, and to use their toy items. this won’t be in the April 15th patch and we can’t say when it’ll be back in, but it’ll be in sometime soon”.. or at least acknowledgement that you’re considering it.

Telling us “sorry but this is how we’re making it, suck it up” is treating paying customers like garbage. The fact that you won’t even refund for many of these items is just terrible customer service.

If you go to a restaurant, and order a filet mignon steak , the restaurant doesn’t get to come in as you’re eating it, take the plate away, and replace it with a pork chop and say “we’ve changed the menu, sorry for the inconvenience” and then expect to keep your money.

I’m betting it hinges on the number of players who have ever bought town clothes in the life of the game being something under 20,000.

You have to remember that this system is likely built into the new wardrobe system. So if they decide to stop the town clothes/outfit update, it’s highly probable we won’t get the wardrobe either until they’re finished with the next design.

With the old (current) system they would have to test every piece of town clothing with every other piece to make sure it didn’t glitch. With the new one, they wouldn’t have to do that. And it’s always easier to design one complete outfit, that fits a certain aesthetic.

Also, I’m guessing one of the reasons why they chose this system is that, they would be able to create outfits faster. If it’s the same team that builds the armor, though, they might be swamped in work already.

I don’t think it matters how many people purchased town clothes.
What matters is that they all paid money for a specific item with a specific purpose. And many of them (myself included) are planning to request refunds for items.

This will definitely lose ANet money – which if that precedent is set, will be bad for the company, stockholders, and even employees, in both the short, and the long run.

Nike.2631:

I’m betting it hinges on the number of players who have ever bought town clothes in the life of the game being something under 20,000.

We still payed money. For the current system.

“How much can we screw over our customers before they get kittened enough to stop supporting us” is a bad business model. If anet has someone that says this at their office, fire him, immediately. Anet gets most of their money from the gem store, and we’re the people that have already shown we’re willing to spend money on the gem store.

I’ve said before though, if there is some other reason that anet had to change it, that’s fine but they need to tell us why. Give your customers an actual explanation and maybe we’ll actually understand. But right now it just seems that they just don’t care enough to put in the effort.

AirimirOfGondor.9081:

I don’t think it matters how many people purchased town clothes.

And I don’t think you should be allowed near a job that calls for risk assessment .

This will definitely lose ANet money – which if that precedent is set, will be bad for the company, stockholders, and even employees, in both the short, and the long run.

Bad precedent? You mean like the watchwork pick and the Flame-kissed debacle? I’d say the ‘precedent’ that your gem store goods can be changed or obsoleted without the slightest warning has been WELL established. I didn’t see you at those protest rallies, but they were way bigger than this one, so I might have missed you in the crush .

I am so with you in principle, but for this system to have gotten to where they’re talking about it out loud and just over to weeks form pushing it live, I’d say they’ve worked out their losses to about the 5th decimal place and here we are.

Its also my conclusion that the reason they aren’t planning returns for outfits (as opposed to tonics) is that over time those may evolve into something more like the functionality we see today – a collection of parts that can be mix-and-matched both with other town clothes and the various weights of armor. Basically I’m hopeful outfits work as a (non-returnable) placeholder until that process is complete.

Nike.2631:

Its also my conclusion that the reason they aren’t planning returns for outfits (as opposed to tonics) is that over time those may evolve into something more like the functionality we see today – a collection of parts that can be mix-and-matched both with other town clothes and the various weights of armor. Basically I’m hopeful outfits work as a (non-returnable) placeholder until that process is complete.

If your conclusion were anywhere near the truth of the matter, then don’t you think ANet would have already said as much since that would drastically change the outlook on this new system?

Nike.2631:

Its also my conclusion that the reason they aren’t planning returns for outfits (as opposed to tonics) is that over time those may evolve into something more like the functionality we see today – a collection of parts that can be mix-and-matched both with other town clothes and the various weights of armor. Basically I’m hopeful outfits work as a (non-returnable) placeholder until that process is complete.

Gene Archer.8560:

If your conclusion were anywhere near the truth of the matter, then don’t you think ANet would have already said as much since that would drastically change the outlook on this new system?

Given that Devs cant’ even fart without it being called “a promise”, It’s been my experience than when an activity is gonna fall somewhere around 60th on the “things to do list” they try not to talk about it out loud.

Serious as a heart attack, if they said “ok, keep your outfits until we can fix up each of these pieces to individually work with all three armor types” There would be people complaining that their favorite piece isn’t ready yet BEFORE THE PATCH EVEN HIT.

Nike.2631:

Bad precedent? You mean like the watchwork pick and the Flame-kissed debacle? I’d say the ‘precedent’ that your gem store goods can be changed or obsoleted without the slightest warning has been WELL established. I didn’t see you at those protest rallies, but they were way bigger than this one, so I might have missed you in the crush .

I am so with you in principle, but for this system to have gotten to where they’re talking about it out loud and just over to weeks form pushing it live, I’d say they’ve worked out their losses to about the 5th decimal place and here we are.

Its also my conclusion that the reason they aren’t planning returns for outfits (as opposed to tonics) is that over time those may evolve into something more like the functionality we see today – a collection of parts that can be mix-and-matched both with other town clothes and the various weights of armor. Basically I’m hopeful outfits work as a (non-returnable) placeholder until that process is complete.

They refunded people over the flamekissed at least.

They won’t refund people over the wintersday outfit, mad king outfit, bloody prince outfit, executioner outfit, pirate captain outfit, cook outfit, or witch outfit.

They’re changing them on people and sticking them with it whether they like it or not.

Nike.2631:

Given that Devs cant’ even fart without it being called “a promise”, It’s been my experience than when an activity is gonna fall somewhere around 60th on the “things to do list” they try not to talk about it out loud.

Serious as a heart attack, if they said “ok, keep your outfits until we can fix up each of these pieces to individually work with all three armor types” There would be people complaining that their favorite piece isn’t ready yet BEFORE THE PATCH EVEN HIT.

There are already people complaining and there will still be people complaining when the patch goes live, without this information (going with the assumption it’s true and not just you being hopeful). Withholding important information like that isn’t doing them any favors.

“Customers will still be mad because other reasons!” is not a valid reason to withhold information that can drastically improve relations. I would appreciate it if you and others would stop trying to use “complaints” as some kind of justification for a company to be silent about issues that they really have no reason being silent on.

Complaining happens no matter what. I think it’s time you accepted that and stopped trying to use it as justification for complete silence that literally helps no one.

Furthermore, in regards to something like that being “60th on the things to do list”. Well…then maybe it shouldn’t be 60th on the list. Just saying.

Edit: Just thought of a question you might ask, so want to try and preempt it. Obviously, if complaining happens no matter what, a question that pops up is: “Why even bother, then? May as well stay silent since kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t”.

The reason is that it changes the nature of the complaining. You go from complaining that is valid and that you shouldn’t be ignoring because of the trust issues it causes to complaining that is, for lack of a better word, inconsequential and ignorable, because it’s just people venting. It’s a subtle difference, yes, but one that most businesses would prefer over this current mess, I would think.

Curtis Johnson.8456:

To expand more on what I mean by better support, It helps if you think of town clothes as a 4th weight class of armor. Clothing was meant to offer visual options that break the class roles, however we were never completely happy with the way it was isolated from the rest of the game and still felt largely the same. Many pieces could have easily been mistaken for light or medium armor. In many ways it was more akin to building an alt character because town-clothes and armor were so separated. Additionally, every time we added something to town-clothes, it didn’t really help someone building their light, medium, or heavy look. And there was no way to add combat gear fairly without creating 3 versions on the back end (light, medium, and heavy). As a customization platform and sustainable expansion design it left a lot to be desired.

Re-reading this, I think I understand a bit better what Curtis is trying to say.

Basically

• Every piece of armor and clothing has to be designed by (at least) one person.
• When that person, or group, is busy creating the new items, they will be too busy to create others.
• Every time an armor set is created, there has to be one for all three weight classes, or we’ll have people complaining about it on the forums (not that it seems to help much this way either).
• If you insert town clothes into this, it’s essentially an extra weight class that has separate rules to design for and will take time in development that can’t be used to create new armor.

The change will likely mean that the developer and artist’s work process can become more streamlined, so in the long run it would mean we get more customization.

Nike.2631:

Its also my conclusion that the reason they aren’t planning returns for outfits (as opposed to tonics) is that over time those may evolve into something more like the functionality we see today – a collection of parts that can be mix-and-matched both with other town clothes and the various weights of armor. Basically I’m hopeful outfits work as a (non-returnable) placeholder until that process is complete.

Curtis did say they were building this system for the future.

Creating expectations when the delivery date is completely up in the air (as in one person working on it when they don’t have 4 other more pressing things to attend to) is something we’ve seen them actively avoid no matter how much it might sooth people’s nerves.

Gene Archer.8560:

Complaining happens no matter what. I think it’s time you accepted that and stopped trying to use it as justification for complete silence that literally helps no one.

Hey, my acceptance level has nothing to do with it. If I were King of Anet, we’d be seeing an entirely different slate of screw ups…

Furthermore, in regards to something like that being “60th on the things to do list”. Well…then maybe it shouldn’t be 60th on the list. Just saying.

And maybe it should. Just because you and your friends and seven people you’ve met on the internet like something a whole bunch doesn’t mean its a single digit priority for a three million player game. Just saying.

Nike.2631:

Creating expectations when the delivery date is completely up in the air (as in one person working on it when they don’t have 4 other more pressing things to attend to) is something we’ve seen them actively avoid no matter how much it might sooth people’s nerves.

I think this is probably smart, too. Linsey mentioned working on an alternative way to get precursors back in November 2012 when she was the only one working on it, and it’s been nothing but a source of disappointment for players and backpedaling for Anet. Probably better for them to avoid that sort of thing all together.

Titan Cronus.9216:

Djinn.9245:

Titan Cronus.9216:

GW has always had a general ethos of realism in the game. Like for example, you can’t make your characters look like manga or cartoon characters because they want to keep a particular sence of realism or you can’t make your characters super big or small. In my opinion, letting people be "able to “costume” while adventuring" is a step in the wrong direction. One of the things that specific and unique to GW2 is the Town Clothes system. It should be celebrated and expanded apon, not removed.

Realism? Like weapons that shoot unicorns? Or like wearing a stuffed quaggan backpack into combat?

Lol, It’s not lost on me the irony of my statment but the game is set in a fictional reality.

One of the main aims of any piece of fiction is to make the reality in which it’s set seem believable. So far, in my opinion, GW has done a cracking job but I feel that this does not complaiment the game.

I personally don’t like a lot of the more “childish” items in this Heroic game – it takes away from the heroism when I see people helping kill the Champion mob wearing a stuffed animal on their back or shooting cartoony rainbow unicorns from their bow. But since they have already crossed that line I don’t see the issue with allowing people to look however they want while adventuring. I prefer this since I spend most of my time adventuring and hardly any time standing around “in town”.

Devildoc.6721:

They refunded people over the flamekissed at least.

They won’t refund people over the wintersday outfit, mad king outfit, bloody prince outfit, executioner outfit, pirate captain outfit, cook outfit, or witch outfit.

Exactly. They have done refunds for sets of cosmetic items before but not this time. Now follow the logic. What’s different about this time? Oh, those assets are still in the game, and still being tinkered with. Whereas the original T3-based flame-kissed has been wiped from the field.

They can’t just say “we’ll make it good”, because they may not be able to make it good until November (or later). But in ’til then they can leave those sales in place, give you partial functionality now, and keep banging on it till its fixed when they can put it back on sale.

Or maybe the whole project does fall apart as too hard, in which case there’s no “promise” floating around to bit them in the butts later.

If it were a done deal that those items are broken forever, I’d expect refunds. Limbo now is actually a much better sign towards future attempts to put things right

Nike.2631:

Hey, my acceptance level has nothing to do with it.

It does when you actively defend withholding information that can improve relations. I get that you don’t want to see ANet raked over the coals, but you can’t save them from that.

Only ANet can save ANet from ninjas. (Though the only way to not get caught by ninjas is to set yourself on fire, soooo)

And maybe it should. Just because you and your friends and seven people you’ve met on the internet like something a whole bunch doesn’t mean its a single digit priority for a three million player game. Just saying.

And just because you and your friends and seven people you’ve met on the internet think it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list doesn’t mean it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list. If anything, considering the game is based around cosmetics, I would say that something involving cosmetics is deserving of some kind of priority…

While I’m waiting on alternative ways to get precursors.. I’m not that upset that we haven’t gotten it yet.. at least I know it’s being worked on.

Just telling us that we have to deal with this all or nothing system, with no notification that they’re even CONSIDERING reverting to a town clothes panel or finding a way for mix and match to work.. that’s not a good way to manage your customers if you ARE planning on something.. at least alleviate customer worries with what information you have.

You either do that, you offer refunds, or you lose customers.

Gene Archer.8560:

And just because you and your friends and seven people you’ve met on the internet think it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list doesn’t mean it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list. If anything, considering the game is based around cosmetics, I would say that something involving cosmetics is deserving of some kind of priority…

I don’t have ANY PREFERENCE where it falls on the list. I am observing their behavior and that’s all.~

• They are treating town clothes customers pretty shoddily.
• They do know EXACTLY how many people buy town-clothes as both an absolute number and as a fraction of active player-base.

I’m inclined to believe there is a correlation between those two things. But it could just be some middle manager somewhere doesn’t like town clothes and decided to toss those players in a dumpster. But I tend to believe that an enterprise that makes a hundred million dollars a year has a little more mercenary outlook than that.

Well, at least I can get a refund and hope that ANet will create a costume set similar to what I have now in the future.

Nike.2631:

Gene Archer.8560:

And just because you and your friends and seven people you’ve met on the internet think it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list doesn’t mean it’s a non-issue undeserving of #20 on the list. If anything, considering the game is based around cosmetics, I would say that something involving cosmetics is deserving of some kind of priority…

I don’t have ANY PREFERENCE where it falls on the list. I am observing their behavior and that’s all.~

• They are treating town clothes customers pretty shoddily.
• They do know EXACTLY how many people buy town-clothes as both an absolute number and as a fraction of active player-base.

I’m inclined to believe there is a correlation between those two things. But it could just be some middle manager somewhere doesn’t like town clothes and decided to toss those players in a dumpster. But I tend to believe that an enterprise that makes a hundred million dollars a year has a little more mercenary outlook than that.

problem i have with this thinking is, that with a better design paradigm, and allocation of resources, they can make money and make players happy.

Instead of taking a Disatisfy one group of players make other players happy, they should have created a system that would satisfy both players, even if its something they have to work towards.

In this case as well, its not like some others, in that it has direct negative cost associated with it beyond the intangibles.
They have to refund money, which costs them customer service time, CC transaction charges, and removes revenue. People can make a valid claim to return every single item.
Then on top of that they are alienating a lot of players who actively use the gem store and are loose with their money.’
Add to that they are once again showing a very bad method of evolving the game without alienating a group in their playerbase.

This is why i think they really needed to discuss and think about this issue with the fractal reset. The same problem keeps coming up. We want to evolve content, but how do we deal with the players who have invested into the systems. Once again they deal with them by saying im sorry but i think this is for everyone elses benefit (which once again is yet to be proven) Instead of creating solutions that grandfather/consider old people, they basically just shaft them.

Once in a blue moon, this should happen, but its becoming fairly consistent. I am all for evolution, and fixing things and not getting held back by the past, but it doesnt seem like they are trying very hard to bring old users into their new systems. I mean builds changing is acceptable, but lierally reducing the functionality of items that you already sold to players? Thats a bad deal in any business. The closest i can think of is new operating systems, but that gates you from new things, it doesnt actually stop you from using it how you used it in the past.

Chidori.9483:

Question:

Will I still be able to have a separate PvP, WvW and PvE outfit? Or is your looked just merged as one across game modes?

It appears you just carry your PvE look into PvP – judging from both the text and the new set up panel that has no paper doll.

OTOH you could swap your PvE gear to almost anything before entering the mists and that would be your locked-in appearance for that visit, so having a separate PvP look is just a matter of keeping a few items in your bag, with no concern for their stats whatsoever.

Having read through all the Dev posts and most of the responses:

Um … Devs are kinda missing the point.

- Insisting we want towns clothes to be combat-wearable is incorrect.

- Insisting we want to look like our armor class while wearing towns clothes is also incorrect.

- Insisting we need to mix-and-match armor with towns clothes is … silly .. and incorrect.

What we want:

- To retain our towns clothes as separate, non-combat, mix-and-match items the way they are now.

Do what you want with the armor and any new armor you want. But please stop fussing with the towns clothes system. We like it because it allows us to not look ridiculous while RPing and just hanging out in relaxed settings.

Or it lets us look ridiculous when we want to look that way.

Honestly? I spend way more money on towns clothes while they’re available than I ever have on armor skins. Armor is … in every freaking game. Every single one. And we’re almost always class-restricted with it. This was one of those few games that gave us options outside our class with clothing that looked like a normal person might wear it along with some fun or silly items.

Take this away and you’re no longer even as cool as a game as old as EverQuest 2, my friends.

Just noticed that they are still selling the outfits in the Gem Store, with no warning that the construction of said outfits are going to change. I screenshotted the BLTC screen with the outfits highlighted and the pop-up text clearly states, in unequivocal terms, "this six piece outfit (hat, gloves, …) etc.

I bought six pieces, I should keep six pieces.

Donut.6914:

Well, at least I can get a refund and hope that ANet will create a costume set similar to what I have now in the future.

You can’t get a refund though. Only the ones being changed into tonics (like hoodies and cargo pants) are being refundable.

Devildoc.6721:

Donut.6914:

Well, at least I can get a refund and hope that ANet will create a costume set similar to what I have now in the future.

You can’t get a refund though. Only the ones being changed into tonics (like hoodies and cargo pants) are being refundable.

Yep. Not only are they taking away something that you already paid money for, they are stopping you from getting a refund as well. Meaning you are stuck with this change whether you like it or not.

Wonderful way they treat their paying customers eh? But don’t worry, they plan on making more gem store stuff for us down the road that we can spend money on, because they actually think we are going to give them more money after they did this….

chemiclord.3978:

Shifu.4321:

I’m guessing they looked at the numbers, saw that the amount of people who would buy outfits if they were usable in combat outnumbered those who would be affected by the change, and decided that they were willing to risk angering those who regularly used town clothes. That’s probably what happened.

Oh, I’m reasonably certain that’s EXACTLY it.

With the new system, the only thing they have to worry about is each outfit being compatible with itself. They don’t have to make each mesh be somewhat compatible with every other piece of different outfits (which is destined to fail at some level).

It’s cheaper in terms of development, which is most likely the primary reason for the change. I honestly do not believe town clothes were the hot seller that the people in this thread want to believe it was. If town clothes were making Arena.net money… it wasn’t much.

Interestingly, many of my guildies, rp buddies, and myself were on the edge of our seats from launch waiting for even MORE town clothes to be added. I have long since lost count of how many frustrated-tinged-with-excitement conversations we’ve had about wanting anet to bring us more clothes. “Why isn’t there a new town clothes skirt this update?? Why can’t I have that Sylvari npc’s dress?”

They put in the hoodies, shorts, etc, and for the little bit it was it was exciting. They brought us the Wintersday dress and some of us said, “well okay it’s awkward but we can work with some of these pieces”. And they gave us halloween outfits and some of us hissed that you cannot separate the top from the bottom.

We were waiting in expectation for more dresses, suits, jeans, sylvari leafy things, different kinds of shoes, skirts, and so on. Many of us assumed it would be a bit like Gaiaonline where they started with a set amount of clothes and then slowly updated the in-game shops (yes I know it’s not an mmo) over time and as resources allowed. I actually am impressed with the diversity of outfits people HAVE been able to put together with the limited choices. And I know I was definitely expecting it to be something that was expanded upon in an even more mix-and-match way.

I guess my point is that if they didn’t make a massive bundle off of the little pieces they did put out, look at the variety of what was there. Up until they removed town clothes they didn’t expand on it nearly the way they expanded on the armor skins. And yet, in my opinion, the purchasable armor skins they offered at launch weren’t much better quality than the town clothes. Both look awkward on certain races and scream ‘launcher gear’. So if anet wasn’t making as much money on it as armor skins, they certainly could have gone through the effort early on to produce more interesting pieces – like they did end up doing with the armor skins.

In short, in my opinion, there was a lot of potential.

Devildoc.6721:

Wow, so I read that the halloween/wintersday/pirate/cook costumes will not be refundable because they’re not becoming tonics.

The wintersday outfit I specifically bought to mix and match, I hate the full outfit.

Thanks for the bait and switch, Arenanet will never get another dime from me.

They need to fully refund ANY townclothes that people want to return. Including multiple sets. Just like they did with the Flamekissed stuff. They took my money – they don’t get to change the item to something completely different without refunding me.

Donut.6914:

Well, at least I can get a refund and hope that ANet will create a costume set similar to what I have now in the future.

Really? You’d buy from them again?

I don’t care if they create an outfit exactly like the mix and match one I’m wearing now. If this change goes live, I will never buy anything from the gemstore again.

I’m waiting for the next slap in the face. As I’m betting these tonics will be rendered completely useless by a 30 minute cool down timer. Just like the Infinite Watchknight Tonic which is useless.

This is basically Anet tightening it’s iron grip on appearance. Stifling creativity does not make for a good RPG. Which this game really isn’t going to be anymore.

Feycat.4370:

Devildoc.6721:

Wow, so I read that the halloween/wintersday/pirate/cook costumes will not be refundable because they’re not becoming tonics.

The wintersday outfit I specifically bought to mix and match, I hate the full outfit.

Thanks for the bait and switch, Arenanet will never get another dime from me.

They need to fully refund ANY townclothes that people want to return. Including multiple sets. Just like they did with the Flamekissed stuff. They took my money – they don’t get to change the item to something completely different without refunding me.

That’s exactly what they’re doing.

They’re exchanging the steak for a pork chop right as you’re taking a bite, and keeping your money.

I still loathe the town clothes change with passion, but virtually everything I have to say about the issue has already been said.

BUT. I’m here to share something about the new costumes that came to my mind a while ago: dyeing them. Curtis said earlier that the costumes will still be dyeable, with up to 4 dye channels depending on outfit. However, I’m concerned that something like THIS will happen.

On the left there’s the fancy winter outfit dyed like I want it to be, each piece dyed individually. If I’ve understood correctly, after the patch that colour combination won’t be possible anymore, because it uses 5 colours in total. Worst case scenario, Anet will ruin the dye channels like in the picture on the right – my pants and vest don’t match anymore, the boots and gloves are the same colour as the coat, etc…

And of course some more creative dye jobs, like having the top and bottom halves of the coat be different colours entirely, will definitely be impossible when the pieces can no longer be dyed individually.

(Fashion is SERIOUS BUSINESS.)

Awbee.8405:

Curtis Johnson.8456:

Clothing was meant to offer visual options that break the class roles, however we were never completely happy with the way it was isolated from the rest of the game

But we were! That is exactly what I wanted from town clothes, and what I got.

I liked your entire post, but felt like highlighting this.

ANet, you may not have been happy with your own implementation, but you happily took my money. Now you change some items that I bought and that I felt were in my possession, that’s really not a good feeling at all, and some of us are not even getting the money back, and that’s, well, honestly, super lame.

I want to be constructive and forthcoming, but I’m really mostly disappointed that I have something that I invested time, money and creativity in and that I’d assumed to be able to use indefinitely, actively taken away from me. I haz a sad.

Allaraina.8614:

Interestingly, many of my guildies, rp buddies, and myself were on the edge of our seats from launch waiting for even MORE town clothes to be added. I have long since lost count of how many frustrated-tinged-with-excitement conversations we’ve had about wanting anet to bring us more clothes.

Anet seems so completely obsessed with the PvP and combat, they don’t even realize they have paying customers whom like OTHER things in game too. To make a simple analogy, I’d like more functionality and creativity in characters and housing like “the Sims” has. Also, I’d like more cultivating like “Farmville” had. In a game where end game content is entirely appearance based, they should give us a great variety in appearance.

Somebody once said that in GW2, the end game was fashion.

Devildoc.6721:

Wow, so I read that the halloween/wintersday/pirate/cook costumes will not be refundable because they’re not becoming tonics.

The wintersday outfit I specifically bought to mix and match, I hate the full outfit.

Thanks for the bait and switch, Arenanet will never get another dime from me.

And don’t forget that some of us bought multiple sets of some of these items. I bought 4 sets of wintersday for different toons (one toon wore with a top hat, another with the ringmaster hat, another with the ear muffs and the fourth with the santa hat – none of which will now be possible).

But, since it is now going to be an account wide unlock I will have spent 4 times as many gems for the same functionality as a player who bought a single set – and, from what it sounds, still will not be able to get a refund for the 3 extra sets.

I’m okay with the outfits, but may we please have more sylvari cultural type town clothes?

Devildoc.6721:

They’re exchanging the steak for a pork chop right as you’re taking a bite, and keeping your money.

Nah , its more like you are getting meatloaf from swanson frozen foods,
pork chop would be too good.