Guild Wars 2

Saturn.6591:

I’d also like to add that I can’t think of any mammal where the female generally is taller than the male. And since all GW2-races so far are mammals (except the Sylvari; but the pale tree designed them after humans)… go figure why the size choices are like they are.

Many Bats, Rabbits, Whales, some Hyena, some seals, Sloth, Armadillos, Shrew …

RedRhino.4281:

All the talk about the female height options being sexist. What about cup size on all the female models? I wanted to make a female Norn character for something different, but alas, I was forced to give her gigantic breasts. This game, like many in the genre, doesn’t have an option to “tone them down.”

you know the funny thing is? Some games include a breast slider and then get named sexist for it, because “the game focuses too much on female breasts”.
I wouldn’t mind a breast slider though.

Chrissy Chan.4573:

I just don’t think it’s too much to ask that the height slider be exactly the same regardless of a character’s sex, that’s all.

Who does it harm by not being the same for both genders though?
Some people just seem to be far too sensitive. They should stop it, because bad thing happens out of over sensitivity. Censorship in games (the new Shadow Warrior will have no more racial stereotypes (even though that’s why people liked it in the first place), the new Dead Rising won’t have as many jokes and the only game that decided to portray a character the way that he is instead of toning him down for the sake of not insulting anyone that I’ve recently seen is Deadpool), people in prison over something that they’ve written about a LoL game (http://www.change.org/petitions/release-my-son-justin-carter-in-jail-for-a-facebook-comment), getting fired over making a dongle joke, because it’s “sexist” http://www.cbc.ca/news/yourcommunity/2013/03/two-fired-over-dongle-joke-at-tech-conference-including-woman-who-complained.html.
The world really needs to tone it down. We shouldn’t add unrealistic height sliders if we wanted to add realistic ones, just because one customer wants to be the tallest female in a fantasy game.

While I can see where you are coming from, I think she is making too big of a deal out of something that she could rectify by being norn. I, better than most here, understand that there are tall women out there. At 6’2", I am the SHORTEST in my family. My female cousins tower over me at 6’3" and 6’4". I’m considered the runt when I go to my grandparent’s place for family gatherings =D So I’m sure if my cousins played, they would want the same thing.

But one thing you have to consider is the armor art. The artists need a height range to work within, or the armor becomes skewed. “That’s stupid!” you might say. Is it? Make a male human. Make him a fatty- biggest body you can give him. Now go put on the exotic “acolyte” armor (the one with the little half skirt on the bottom). It clips like you wouldn’t believe. That’s what happens when the artists don’t take something into consideration when designing their armor!

For the artists, they need a set range to create their armor for. The problem is that women, on average, are shorter than the shortest men. Not sexism- is fact. So, if they allow women to not only be the shortest but also the tallest characters in the game, that creates this HUGE range that artists have to account for. That’s… rough.

Yes, it sucks that not everyone can make a character that looks exactly like them. But your friend is not alone. What about an exceptionally short male? 3-4 feet tall? What about the same height female? Those players will never be able to make someone, outside of Asura, who fits their desired height range.

I’m sure the devs would have loved to have that sort of customization ability in the game, but there are constraints you MUST work in. This is one of them.

Wait what about fat people? there are no fat people on the game?
Seriously just use a female Norm, they look human anyways and are super tall and just as pretty.

Mirta.5029:

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/44575-full-size-comparisons-of-races-and-genders/

According to that image, the tallest human female is the exact same eight (minus hair style maybe) than the tallest human male.

What is the problem already?

Dyani.8291:

And this really peeved our tall female friend and she said something along the lines of sexist appearance creations (she wasn’t feminist, nor was she dead serious, but we could tell it bugged her a bit)

gasp—Anything but feminism!!!!!

Classy.

It’s called an anatomical canon, every creative fictional universe has one, it’s a standard archetype of the human figure which averages the base features of the body with the stylizations used within the universe, allowing the artist to create a potentially unlimited amount of different characters with only small modifications to the base canon.

And they’re based on scientific study, nothing sexist about it. The first anatomical canon was made by Leonardo based off of his studies of human cadavers, and most canons have been somewhat based off it ever since, though he aimed for a more idealized figure than most do nowadays. Females are smaller in his and pretty much all canons because the averaged female figure is factually smaller.

EDIT: I should also note that there are rules to modifying the canon, to make characters stand out more or less, and give a proper hierarchy in a storyline. This factors in everything from color to sizing and it all comes down to contrast between story elements.

Males are just able to be barely taller than females in GW2, in fact you can’t even tell the height difference except from a perfectly level or lower angle. This was obviously done so that neither male nor female characters would stand out to the average player as distractingly tall or short.

Mirta.5029:

Bonefield.9813:

By the same token, having similar height harms nobody, while providing the benefit of letting people make the character they want to make. My wife is taller than most men, while I’m shorter than the average guy, and it’d be kind of nice to see a greater range of height variation in what we’re allowed to do with our characters. Even if you don’t consider it sexist, it is restrictive; a lot of the character customization options are based on what the developers and designers consider attractive or ideal (as much has been said outright), and that leaves something to be desired for those of us who don’t share their tastes.

Create the shortest guy and make your wife create the tallest girl. No matter how tall she is she will never be taller than most guys in reality and no matter how short you are you’re likely not to be shorter than a very short woman. The GW2 height system represents it well.
I like realism. Does that mean that your vote should count for more than mine?

Maybe this was just a badly worded sentence, but you do realize there are lots of women that are taller than most men right? I know a girl that’s 6’5".

But, the reality is that the creation system in this game doesn’t allow you to create extreme outliers. I know there’s a height comparison chart out there somewhere, but I’d be willing to bet that the tallest male slot is meant to represent roughly someone who is 6’5 or 6’6" while the tallest female slot is meant to represent someone who is about 6’2". I’m on the fence about whether that’s ok or not. The fact is that women who are 6’5" do exist even if they are extremely rare.

Then again, men who are taller than 6’5" also exist. It’s arguable that it should allow every height for both sexes, but it’s also arguable that that would lead to a game world where the average height for males and females was the same, which would be unrealistic.

Einlanzer.1627:

Maybe this was just a badly worded sentence, but you do realize there are lots of women that are taller than most men right? I know a girl that’s 6’5".

But, the reality is that the creation system in this game doesn’t allow you to create extreme outliers. I know there’s a height comparison chart out there somewhere, but I’d be willing to bet that the tallest male slot is meant to represent roughly someone who is 6’5 or 6’6" while the tallest female slot is meant to represent someone who is about 6’2". I’m on the fence about whether that’s ok or not. The fact is that women who are 6’5" do exist even if they are extremely rare.

Then again, men who are taller than 6’5" also exist. It’s arguable that it should allow every height for both sexes, but it’s also arguable that that would lead to a game world where the average height for males and females was the same, which would be unrealistic.

Who is there to say that the tallest male in the game isn’t 7’0? Or taller?
I’m not saying that tall women don’t exist. I’m saying that women are shorter than men both comparing the tallest and the average, therefore it’s only realistic that women in a video game are shorter than male characters.

A Nord is a type of human. Just create a female Nord.

Wrong, Nord are an entirely different race according to lore. The fact that they basically look like oversized humans doesn’t make them a “type” of human.

If you don’t care about lore and don’t mind being a Norn, then go for it.

Based on the height chart someone posted earlier I’m surprised you even noticed. Unless the male character your friend was comparing hers to had a really tall hairstyle too.

There’s a big difference between the norn, but that fits with the rest of the design because they show a lot of sexual dimorphism compared to humans.

I don’t see it as a big deal personally. Looking at the comparison male and female humans are equal, and she can pick a tall hairstyle if she wants to make her character look bigger. Or as many people have said she can play a norn if she wants to be taller than a max height human.

Sitkaz.5463:

OP, I agree. It was a relief when game developers stopped crippling female characters by making them automatically weaker (yet usually with higher charisma, whee.) There should be equal height options, too.

Which games did this? The only ones I’ve played where your gender affects your stats are the Elder Scrolls series, and personally I never saw it as ‘crippling’ them because depending on your build a female character could be the better choice. I always made my khajiit female for example because I wanted the higher endurance.

Welcome to video gaming, make a norn.

…and I’d just like to add once more that if you go with the tallest female, you will in fact be taller than most males… since not all who play a male character will chose to make it as tall as possible.

So, as I stated in my earlier post here, it’s exactly like in real life: The tallest woman is still a bit smaller than the tallest man. However, the tallest woman will be taller than most men.

The character creation in Guild Wars 2 is far from restrictive.

There is no sexist or malevolent intent here, it is simply a design choice. You are creating Tyrian’s not humans, this is a fantasy world, not reality.

Every race and creed is not represented in character creation, this does not make the game racist.

I am a very skinny guy. 5’11", 135 pounds on a good day. The least buff human male is in much better shape then I am. I can not create a human male character to accurately represent my real life proportions. I am not offended by this, and I would be silly to be.

They should’ve just allowed both males and females the same liberty of being adjusted to the same height min/max. I see no purpose in creating the difference. I also agree that it’s a subconscious form of sexism with roots in the idea of biologically based patriarchy considering it would’ve probably been easier to use the same height template for both sexes and yet they didn’t. It doesn’t bother me though.

Leo Paul.1659:

it’s a subconscious form of sexism with roots in the idea of biologically based patriarchy

Biologically based patriarchy? Now males should feel guilty for growing taller than females?

Some of these posts are rather ridiculous. Basic biological principles are now a form of sexism? Guess we will need to have a single completely androgynous gender in all games now to avoid controversy.

Leo Paul.1659:

They should’ve just allowed both males and females the same liberty of being adjusted to the same height min/max. I see no purpose in creating the difference. I also agree that it’s a subconscious form of sexism with roots in the idea of biologically based patriarchy considering it would’ve probably been easier to use the same height template for both sexes and yet they didn’t. It doesn’t bother me though.

It is quite possible that the art for the female armor was easier to design around a smaller frame because it does mimic western fashion and since western females are in fact shorter, on average, it made is easier to mimic western desgin.

If you want an argument for sexisum look at the human female armor desgins. They are sexy. There you have it.

Is this sexist? Not in my opinion, all of the females that I know in real life that play guild wars love the ‘cute little outfits’.

This is really not a forum for this type of debate however I will say that male and females are just not the same. They don’t act the same, they don’t dress the same and many of them wouldn’t want to. Should they be paid the same as men for the same roles? Yes. To create an argument for sexisum over the size of your MMO character is just silly.

Many people jump at the chance to get on a soap box and fight for someone elses rights because it makes them feel noble. Half the time the group whoes rights they are fighting for don’t even agree with the argument.

Mirta.5029:

Leo Paul.1659:

it’s a subconscious form of sexism with roots in the idea of biologically based patriarchy

Biologically based patriarchy? Now males should feel guilty for growing taller than females?

I mean the idea that males are superior based on biological features such as height or whatever. Not that I believe there is any merit to it that people should be allowed to build entire social structures around it.

I’m not really gonna argue whether it really is sexist or not, I just believe it must be, even if subconsciously (because height can be perceived as an index of dominance), if in video games there exists restrictions based on gender regardless if it’s a detail as minute as height or weight. Couldn’t care less what the other side says.

Leo Paul.1659:

I mean the idea that males are superior based on biological features such as height or whatever. Not that I believe there is any merit to it that people should be allowed to build entire social structures around it.

I’m not really gonna argue whether it really is sexist or not, I just believe it must be, even if subconsciously (because height can be perceived as an index of dominance), if in video games there exists restrictions based on gender regardless if it’s a detail as minute as height or weight. Couldn’t care less what the other side says.

1. Males are physically taller and stronger. They also have about 5% more muscle mass than females. That’s why we separate athletes to female and male categories.
2. Social structures are not built around physical strength anymore.
3. Being taller is not a sign of being more dominant. If anything it’s just biologically accurate.

1. It’s a video game that allows males and females to be the same profession. If they can be allowed to be equally strong, why not equally tall as well? I find arguments using biological accuracy a bit unconvincing considering.

2. Duh

3. It’s a matter of opinion. Some people think it is.

anyway gnyt guys. have fun with the discussion.

As this thread escalated pretty quickly, we’re locking it now.
Thanks for your understanding.

Leo Paul.1659:

1. It’s a video game that allows males and females to be the same profession. If they can be allowed to be equally strong, why not equally tall as well? I find arguments using biological accuracy a bit unconvincing considering.

because making them not equally strong would harm the gameplay, but giving them different height harms nothing.