Guild Wars 2

Excellent post. The first assertion is unassailable. Full berserker builds do not get hit as hard by the impending change to ferocity as other damage or hybrid based builds. I concur that this will limit build diversity by making people gravitate away from builds that get hit harder and don’t have as much damage to begin with.

The reason lies in the well-explored fact that some gear offers a better tradeoff on critical damage for other stats. Those who went for full berserker gear took a less favorable exchange on armor pieces in particular, in order to squeeze out just a bit more damage. With a full set of berserker trinkets, you would gain 44% critical damage, currently. With the change to ferocity as a minor stat you would get 376 ferocity coming to 25% critical damage. A full set of ascended armor, on the other hand, currently gets you 17% critical damage and will instead offer 235 ferocity, 15% critical damage. So the net result is that if you invested in any berserker gear, then the more you invested, the smaller percentage of your critical damage and thus total damage you will lose.

I know nothing of “meta”, but can offer an example where the numbers come out rather easily. I have a warrior with 30 in the precision and 30 in the crit damage trait lines. I finally completed a set of ascended knight weapons and armor, except the leggings which are assassin. I went for scholar runes and keep signet of fury. To get some crit damage, I have full ascended berserker trinkets and enough precision infusions to bring the precision to 2187 or 65% crit chance. Assume fury and heightened focus, which I can always have up, and the crit chance goes to 100%. My crit damage of 86% will go down to 55%, a loss of over 15% of my total damage output.

Try this exercise with other builds where someone judiciously went for only some gear with critical damage, like ruby orbs/jewels and/or ascended trinkets. The result is the same. Non-maximized damage builds get crushed. To moderate the loss, I and others will have to switch to a more traditional power or berserker build. Thus, build diversity goes down, and no number of gimmicky new traits will change that. Hopefully Anet will see the fatal flaws in this change to ferocity and scrap it. Otherwise, many players who just got their full ascended sets complete will have to decide if starting over is worth it. I’m not sure, myself.

Malthurius.6870:

What is this nonsense about mobs with “auto kill” attacks? There is no such thing, at least none that can’t be avoided. If you’re dying to auto attacks a projectiles, maybe you should try knights armor.

Also, the idea presented here in the OP is a bit flawed.

Are you saying that because more power means higher base damage; losing critical damage will hurt low power gear with ferocity more than berserkers? How is that so? Since berserkers has more power, 1% critical damage is more valuable to them than to assassin or valkyrie. More power means more value in critical damage, not less.

Also, celestial is getting buffed not because of this change hurting their damage more than it will hurt berserkers, it’s because the only reason anyone runs celestial right now is because it has higher critial damage than any other gear set right now. When the change hits and this is no longer the case, no one would want to use it unless they did something to it.

This change is going to bring berserker closer to assassins. Assassin’s gear is taking a hit, yes, but berserkers is still taking a larger one.

10% critical damage from 2000 power crits lost > 10% critical damage from 1600 power crits lost

TL;DR What the OP is implying seems wrong mathematically.

Unfortunately I’m going to have to disprove your statements. Relative to berserker’s, everything else just gets worse.

Here is the math which proves my math correct (I made a similar topic ages ago and made this post in another section about the changes to thieves in particular). As the numbers go up, the value of precision subsequently goes down.

And for valkyrie: 450% crit damage on a 10% crit chance is worse DPS than 150% crit damage on 100% crit chance. Precision is what makes critical damage worth taking.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-why-are-they-nerfing-thief-damage-again/page/2#post3685695

Also, celestial gear doesn’t have the highest crit damage of all of the sets. It’s tied with berserker/valkyrie/assassin’s. They’re buffing celestial gear because a lot of people cried about it. Not enough people are talking about precision or hybrid-precision builds because they’re simply not as frequently-played. Most people running celestial gear are thieves which are people making compromises based around their class’s hp pool or indifference on styles of play.

Also regarding the posts about this being only the first of a few implementations, I have one statement:

You seriously believe ANet has a good track record with balancing play?

Draknar.5748:

I guess when you start playing a different MMO?

Yes, but I want to do that in this game. Trinity is the answer that can save gw2.

I’ve not read the entire section here, but just have one simple question. How is it that something “failed” (past tense) before it even takes place (the change is still in the future). Seems somebody doesn’t want to give the solution a chance and the title frankly comes off as premature qqing.

Give it a chance, see what happens. May not be the end of the world scenario you are making it out to be. I’m curious as to the effects, and a bit wary myself, but reserve judgement.

It is a failed solution because adding ascended gear to the game that was never designed to have gear with crit stats as high as ascended gear gives. Now we all suffer because of ANET decision to go against the players and go back on there word of not doing gear grinds.

Now ascended gear will give crit damage the same as exotic did before the ascended gear came out and exotics will give much less than they were intended to.

Seems like a lot of people are simply afraid of having their weaknesses exposed if they won’t be able to go full zerker 100% of the time.

It’s silly to be expected to go full zerker for anything and everything.

and tbh…this is simply a mentality problem. I see this across the board for all ARPGs and MMOs. Everyone is obsessed with seeing the big flashy numbers. They want to hit hard and have the excuse of being a ‘glass cannon’ when they die.

chronometria.3708:

…

“You can only attack tequatl with a spoon” – “we have nerfed tequatl so he may be killed with just a spoon” – “we are confused why spoon spec is in such demand”

I lol’d hard

^^ there’s a vendor in Orr who sells Orian spoons

What Ferocity will do:

• The new critical damage stat will fit more easily into a vertical progression via Infusions scheme. The old critical damage had reached a point where adding more was undesirable from a game design standpoint. By using the 15:1 ratio, Ferocity can be put on infusions without giving a % point on each infusion. By reducing critical damage overall, crit % can again serve as a progression carrot without retooling mobs to face larger damage numbers than we currently see.

What Ferocity won’t do:

• Force dedicated speed runners to use a variety of gear/trait builds. You won’t suddenly see knight’s and clerics on speed runs composed of players who know what they’re doing. The current gear setup offers gear for only one of the roles in the ANet soft trinity of DPS, CC and Support. Ferocity will not change this.

What Ferocity might do:

• Speed runs might get slowed down. Objectively, you’d think this has to be the case with lower damage numbers. I say “might” is the appropriate word because players are endlessly inventive.
• There is a continuum of ability in GW2. It stands to reason that somewhere on that skill continuum there are players who have been barely getting by with crit damage as it is. Those players might find they need a little more survivability after the change. However, since a practice effect heavily influences the dungeon experience in GW2, this may not be the case. If it does happen, there may be fewer players looking for and demanding full glass set-ups. How many players will be affected, or if it will happen at all, remains to be seen.
• I’d guess that while there might be a decrease in glass-only groups, there will likely be an increase in players who will contribute less to glass-only groups, but who will seek to join them anyway.

The Revenant.4970:

Seems like a lot of people are simply afraid of having their weaknesses exposed if they won’t be able to go full zerker 100% of the time.

It’s silly to be expected to go full zerker for anything and everything.

and tbh…this is simply a mentality problem. I see this across the board for all ARPGs and MMOs. Everyone is obsessed with seeing the big flashy numbers. They want to hit hard and have the excuse of being a ‘glass cannon’ when they die.

My thought exactly – people are more and more obsessed with min-maxing. Soon the best solution will be to take the gear out of the equasion leaving it blank of stats.

But as someone stated before – it’s the fault of the game/mob design. If you scrap the idea of the class-related roles, but put a general DPS-favorite mechanics (mash his HP pool as fast as possible), it’s something not right. And it will end in DPS meta, since unlike game mechs, obsession is out of the devs reach.

dadamowsky.4692:

The Revenant.4970:

Seems like a lot of people are simply afraid of having their weaknesses exposed if they won’t be able to go full zerker 100% of the time.

It’s silly to be expected to go full zerker for anything and everything.

and tbh…this is simply a mentality problem. I see this across the board for all ARPGs and MMOs. Everyone is obsessed with seeing the big flashy numbers. They want to hit hard and have the excuse of being a ‘glass cannon’ when they die.

My thought exactly – people are more and more obsessed with min-maxing. Soon the best solution will be to take the gear out of the equasion leaving it blank of stats.

But as someone stated before – it’s the fault of the game/mob design. If you scrap the idea of the class-related roles, but put a general DPS-favorite mechanics (mash his HP pool as fast as possible), it’s something not right. And it will end in DPS meta, since unlike game mechs, obsession is out of the devs reach.

Had the same gimmicks in WoW. It’s the people who are always looking for the easiest A to B paths and exploits. The best game designers in the world are always going to have trouble with that crap. I don’t get it, I’ve always leaned towards making well-rounded characters that can deal damage and survive (that’s where true dps comes in since you do ZERO dmg dead). I’ve always done perfectly fine, even well, in all of these games. People act like Zerker is the only viable option….but it’s not.

haviz.1340:

Draknar.5748:

I guess when you start playing a different MMO?

Yes, but I want to do that in this game. Trinity is the answer that can save gw2.

Trinity is never the answer. Never.

I don’t believe ferocity is a ‘failed’ solution. Not by any means. It is also not the complete solution either. All ferocity does is normalize the critical damage stat, bringing it more into line with the existing stats. This is how it should have been to begin with crit damage, rather than a hard %.

Does this solve the issues at hand? Not at all, but it’s a start down the correct path. I don’t recall whether it was Karl or Roy, think it was Karl though, that stated back when we first heard about the ferocity change that this was just the first step in a list of things they need to do to fix combat. They had to start somewhere, this is where they started. They have also stated that Berserker gear would still be the best dps gear.

By bringing down the overall damage, they can now start trying to balance out the desire to roll straight dps vs the desire to roll support or control. They stated flat out that right now the ‘best way’ to support your team is to simply keep pumping the damage; however, they want to change that. They want to make the other roles as desirable to promote variety in play. Without bringing down the overall damage, they wouldn’t necessarily be able to do this (in an effective manner).

So, it’s a decent first step, but that’s all it is… a first step. They’ve started making adjustments to make more skills ‘supporty.’ They’ve started adjusting runes and sigils. They’ve started opening up traits. We still have a long way to go yet. We need some more variety in skills. Healing power, toughness, etc need to be looked at and adjusted to mean something. Foes need an AI upgrade and skill bar upgrades. Obviously these things will require more than just the involvement of the skills and balance team. Let’s give them some time and see what happens.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t believe ferocity is a ‘failed’ solution. Not by any means. It is also not the complete solution either. All ferocity does is normalize the critical damage stat, bringing it more into line with the existing stats. This is how it should have been to begin with crit damage, rather than a hard %.

Does this solve the issues at hand? Not at all, but it’s a start down the correct path. I don’t recall whether it was Karl or Roy, think it was Karl though, that stated back when we first heard about the ferocity change that this was just the first step in a list of things they need to do to fix combat. They had to start somewhere, this is where they started. They have also stated that Berserker gear would still be the best dps gear.

By bringing down the overall damage, they can now start trying to balance out the desire to roll straight dps vs the desire to roll support or control. They stated flat out that right now the ‘best way’ to support your team is to simply keep pumping the damage; however, they want to change that. They want to make the other roles as desirable to promote variety in play. Without bringing down the overall damage, they wouldn’t necessarily be able to do this (in an effective manner).

So, it’s a decent first step, but that’s all it is… a first step. They’ve started making adjustments to make more skills ‘supporty.’ They’ve started adjusting runes and sigils. They’ve started opening up traits. We still have a long way to go yet. We need some more variety in skills. Healing power, toughness, etc need to be looked at and adjusted to mean something. Foes need an AI upgrade and skill bar upgrades. Obviously these things will require more than just the involvement of the skills and balance team. Let’s give them some time and see what happens.

Don’t you go bringing reason into here! Are you mad?! People’s gotta take out their real-world aggression on this game!

Honestly, if you had a patch note that read:

The base healing of all healing skills has been reduced by 15%. The contribution of Healing Power to these skills has been increased so that at 500 Healing Power you will see the same healing numbers as currently, and above 500 Healing Power the results will increase from their current levels.

…The “All-berserker Party” would be dead on the floor with its neck broken, for all but the very, very best zerker players.

The Revenant.4970:

Don’t you go bringing reason into here! Are you mad?! People’s gotta take out their real-world aggression on this game!

Someone’s gotta do it….

Besides… I have to keep up my image of irrational mood swings… from pointlessly irate to semi-reasonable.

Nike.2631:

Honestly, if you had a patch note that read:

The base healing of all healing skills has been reduced by 15%. The contribution of Healing Power to these skills has been increased so that at 500 Healing Power you will see the same healing numbers as currently, and above 500 Healing Power the results will increase from their current levels.

…The “All-berserker Party” would be dead on the floor with its neck broken, for all but the very, very best zerker players.

This is highly likely; however it also poses a bit of an issue.

They built the game so people didn’t need a party (specifically a healer role) in order to play. By reducing the base heal for personal heals it also impacts the open world roamers (not just those zerk dungeoners), increasing the game difficulty for them. Sure, some may welcome this.. may not even really notice a difference. However, for many others it could essentially force them to either play with others, or don’t play at all. While this is obviously completely dependent on player skill for the most part, it would make the less populated sections of the game just that much harder because there aren’t necessarily people there to help you.

There’s a bit of a line there that they have to walk when balancing such things. So as not to alienate any particular player group (too badly).

Edit: Gosh I wish I could see straight to type…

haviz.1340:

Draknar.5748:

I guess when you start playing a different MMO?

Yes, but I want to do that in this game. Trinity is the answer that can save gw2.

I don’t really see how the trinity can solve anything. In fact, the trinity will just remove the possible potential for any if it to be solved.

By linearising roles, it won’t be the players finding zerking to be the best way to tackle everything (although I still don’t agree with that), it would be the game itself forcing everyone down a particular route.

This seems to keep getting derailed into discussions of full berserker setups. The whole point, which has been detailed very neatly and mathematically by DeceiverX and others, is that full berserker is not hit as hard as other gear setups with the switch to ferocity. Thus, the change to ferocity has fundamentally “failed” already in that it doesn’t do what it was designed to do. It makes berserker actually more attractive by crippling other builds worse, relatively speaking. That fosters less build diversity, not more.

Contrarian.2387:

This seems to keep getting derailed into discussions of full berserker setups. The whole point, which has been detailed very neatly and mathematically by DeceiverX and others, is that full berserker is not hit as hard as other gear setups with the switch to ferocity. Thus, the change to ferocity has fundamentally “failed” already in that it doesn’t do what it was designed to do. It makes berserker actually more attractive by crippling other builds worse, relatively speaking. That fosters less build diversity, not more.

Mathematically?

No one even has the full details. Math is factual….there are little facts here.

The numbers were provided by Anet in the post on critical damage. They even showed the impact on a set of runes.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/learn-about-critical-damage-changes/

15 points of ferocity to 1 percent critical damage is the working ratio.

Contrarian.2387:

This seems to keep getting derailed into discussions of full berserker setups. The whole point, which has been detailed very neatly and mathematically by DeceiverX and others, is that full berserker is not hit as hard as other gear setups with the switch to ferocity. Thus, the change to ferocity has fundamentally “failed” already in that it doesn’t do what it was designed to do. It makes berserker actually more attractive by crippling other builds worse, relatively speaking. That fosters less build diversity, not more.

I don’t agree that the other armors are necessarily crippled. Is their damage reduced? Yup. However, it’s rather proportional across the board. From my understanding people choose the other gear types of various reasons, not just damage output, anyway. This isn’t hampering build diversity any more than before.

Ferocity wasn’t intended to simply ‘nerf zerker,’ as many seem to think. It’s being done as a means of normalizing that stat and to bring down damage overall. However, this does not mean that those other armors may not get an additional once over later on to determine whether or not they need some touching up, similarly to celestial.

Contrarian.2387:

The numbers were provided by Anet in the post on critical damage. They even showed the impact on a set of runes.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/learn-about-critical-damage-changes/

15 points of ferocity to 1 percent critical damage is the working ratio.

But yet….that means absolutely nothing when you don’t know how all the traits and other changes are going to work together.

Draknar.5748:

haviz.1340:

Draknar.5748:

I guess when you start playing a different MMO?

Yes, but I want to do that in this game. Trinity is the answer that can save gw2.

Trinity is never the answer. Never.

Gw2 was advertised to have a soft trinity.
Control,Damage,Support but any class could play them. The truth is that if you spec for anything else than damage you are just a handicap to the group.

tom.7468:

Draknar.5748:

haviz.1340:

Draknar.5748:

I guess when you start playing a different MMO?

Yes, but I want to do that in this game. Trinity is the answer that can save gw2.

Trinity is never the answer. Never.

Gw2 was advertised to have a soft trinity.
Control,Damage,Support but any class could play them. The truth is that if you spec for anything else than damage you are just a handicap to the group.

That’s BS. Player skill goes a long way in to being ‘useful’. I’m rarely a full dmg spec’d character and I ‘contribute’ to the group splendidly.

Just because some kittens, who think they are awesome, say that they only allow zerkers in to their groups doesn’t mean that only zerkers are viable.

I’ve been in those ‘exclusive’ clubs before…and newsflash, a lot of the people in them utterly lack playing skills.

The Revenant.4970:

tom.7468:

Draknar.5748:

haviz.1340:

Draknar.5748:

I guess when you start playing a different MMO?

Yes, but I want to do that in this game. Trinity is the answer that can save gw2.

Trinity is never the answer. Never.

Gw2 was advertised to have a soft trinity.
Control,Damage,Support but any class could play them. The truth is that if you spec for anything else than damage you are just a handicap to the group.

That’s BS. Player skill goes a long way in to being ‘useful’. I’m rarely a full dmg spec’d character and I ‘contribute’ to the group splendidly.

Just because some kittens who think they are awesome say that they only allow zerkers in to their groups doesn’t mean that only zerkers are viable.

I’ve been in those ‘exclusive’ clubs before…and newsflash, a lot of the people in them utterly lack playing skills.

Breathe friend. Only those that wish to be enlightened become so. Most; however, tend to have a very narrow view of the world and cannot see the broader scope.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I don’t really see how the trinity can solve anything. In fact, the trinity will just remove the possible potential for any if it to be solved.

By linearising roles, it won’t be the players finding zerking to be the best way to tackle everything (although I still don’t agree with that), it would be the game itself forcing everyone down a particular route.

Support = Healing and that’s what we need. More and better healing.

haviz.1340:

Support = Healing and that’s what we need. More and better healing.

No… we already have humungous quantities of healing available… we need healing to be relevant. Right now the Lone Wolf builds are entirely self-sufficient even through the most challenging scenarios the game has to offer. The coefficient of relevance for healing is currently ZERO. Fully double the outgoing heals people can deliver and there will still be no call for them in speed clear groups.

The real problem is the band between irrelevant and absolutely required is very, very narrow, and bouncing all the way across that band from where we are now to hard requirements for a healer in group benefits no one. Not even the people who like playing healers. They are gonna have to creep up on that sweet spot slowly to not overshoot, and unfortunately this Balance Team is glacial on the best of days. Unsatisfied healing-gameplay fans may have already moved on in substantial numbers before they come anywhere near striking a good balance.

I’m looking forward to the change. Crit damage nerf means less overall dps, making encounters last longer, and bringing support more important. If you down a boss before he deals lethal damage it trivializes the encounter. But if it’s going to take some time now, teamwork and support skills/stats will become more important. I think this broadens the overall team variety.

As for the change to Ferocity, Anet has already said that it makes it possible to have gear in the future with Ferocity as a major stat. Which means you can have the Precision-based builds again. Mixing Assassins gear with dps-oriented Ferocity-based gear would be pretty cool.

Can I just clarify that berserker’s being the most optimal option in pve does not in any way make it the only viable option? Advocating for zerker is always about being the most optimal and efficient choice.

Everything is “viable” for pve. Build diversity is always more relevant in pvp and wvw. There, viability is more of an issue.

Granted, certain strategies and execution are perhaps viable only with a concerted effort clad in all berserker’s.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

They built the game so people didn’t need a party (specifically a healer role) in order to play.

This is why we can’t have nice things. Yet they still made group dungeons and zerg events. It’s this sort of antagonism that causes all the troubles GW2 has. The attempt to have your cake and eat it…

And they’re getting away with it!
Ferocity is likely not even meant to be a “solution” to the dungeon meta. In fact, the dungeon meta could have turned out worse for all they care. Indigosundown might be right that it is mainly supposed to make crit damage fit better into VP.

So their bottomline of this thread is probably “working as intended”.

Escadin.9482:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

They built the game so people didn’t need a party (specifically a healer role) in order to play.

This is why we can’t have nice things. Yet they still made group dungeons and zerg events. It’s this sort of antagonism that causes all the troubles GW2 has. The attempt to have your cake and eat it…

And they’re getting away with it!
Ferocity is likely not even meant to be a “solution” to the dungeon meta. In fact, the dungeon meta could have turned out worse for all they care. Indigosundown might be right that it is mainly supposed to make crit damage fit better into VP.

So their bottomline of this thread is probably “working as intended”.

We kind of sort of asked for it though. One of the biggest complaints of many gamers is the time lost just waiting around for a healer or a tank. They attmepted to remedy that in gw2, by allowing for not needing one. Yes, we still have 5-man dungeons, but there aren’t any required ‘roles’ per se. Obviously things didn’t work out quite the way they envisions, but all things have to start somewhere.

Sure, this change could also be to help fit crit damage better into a vp model. It also allows for them to more accurate up or downscale characters in wvw or for ls events or just for open world roaming. It also opens up the possibility of a crit damage primary armor down the road. There are many reasons that this ‘might’ have been implemented. Doesn’t make it bad necessarily.

You’re right, this isn’t intended a the solution to the dps meta. Its intended as a first step in that direction, according to what Karl and Roy have said.

Nike.2631:

No… we already have humungous quantities of healing available… we need healing to be relevant. Right now the Lone Wolf builds are entirely self-sufficient even through the most challenging scenarios the game has to offer. The coefficient of relevance for healing is currently ZERO. Fully double the outgoing heals people can deliver and there will still be no call for them in speed clear groups.

The real problem is the band between irrelevant and absolutely required is very, very narrow, and bouncing all the way across that band from where we are now to hard requirements for a healer in group benefits no one. Not even the people who like playing healers. They are gonna have to creep up on that sweet spot slowly to not overshoot, and unfortunately this Balance Team is glacial on the best of days. Unsatisfied healing-gameplay fans may have already moved on in substantial numbers before they come anywhere near striking a good balance.

I love playing healers and I’m already having fun with my water ele. And the stuff that comes with new patch, man, that’s gonna put them on piedestal.

haviz.1340:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I don’t really see how the trinity can solve anything. In fact, the trinity will just remove the possible potential for any if it to be solved.

By linearising roles, it won’t be the players finding zerking to be the best way to tackle everything (although I still don’t agree with that), it would be the game itself forcing everyone down a particular route.

Support = Healing and that’s what we need. More and better healing.

Support is not limited to healing. Not by a long shot.

Support is also helping your team do what they do best, either by buffing them or debuffing the enemy, and also helping to prevent damage.

Guys…..It’s mainly critical damage through your traits that is being nerfed, the armour sets are staying relatively the same as they were before with only slight decreases in damage output.

At the moment you can gain a total of 30% critical damage through your traits but after the update the total will be exactly 20% critical damage. Zerker build will still be as viable as ever and I do not understand why this post has been so negative towards it.

My Dps guardian pumps out a rotation of: Whirling blades + Judges intervention = 7K damage, Leap of faith = 3.8K damage, Flashing blade —-> Zealot’s defence = 6K damage, Zealot’s flame —->Zealot’s Fire = 6K damage. Summed up that is a total of 22.8K damage over a 7 second period which I find is too much damage in too short of a time period. When critical damage is nerfed total damage output will be 20.6K over the same time period. a 2K dps drop is NOTHING at all….ill just drop in 1 auto attack to fill in the gap.

Furthermore, this update will force me to put more traits into the upper two trees to match the damage output that I once had, Making me a lot squishier than I once was.
So I may have to consider moving out of the dps way of life for a more viable build…maybe condition guardian with these new traits(Very excited for this).
Anet has done this IMO to open up/force people to run different builds and I can see people preparing for a full 180 turn around already. I think this is great, we will be fighting a lot more tank people in WvW/PvP/PvE.

New Build possibilities:

Elementalist:
>Stone heart – cannot be critical hit while attuned to earth. This opens up MANY avenues for Ementalist inside of WvW, we should be seeing a LOT more Elementalist commanders about and pure tank builds to soak damage while your team deals the dps.
>Aquatic Benevolence- your healing to other allies (not self) is increased by 25% – Finally! Elementalists devoted purely to healing their team and keeping you afloat when the water get’s a bit dicey. Elementalist is your new friend when fighting in group play situations.

Thief:
>Invigorating Precision – You are healed for a % of the strike damage dealt. The current rate is 5%. Does not work on ambient creatures. This opens the road for
sustain thieves rather than the full zerker, back stab build we see today.
>Resilience of Shadows – Stealth you apply reduces 50% incoming attack damage (does not work against condition damges). Again, here is an option for more sustain while in stealth and the trait is way out of the current theif meta trait lines so they will be forced to look for new and unique builds.

Engineer:
>Fortified Turrets – your turrets are surrounded by a reflective shield when created. 4s duration, ends if the turret is picked up or destroyed. Now we will see an influx in turret builds rather than the standard stun/grenade builds that are dominating at this time.
>Experimental Turrets – Turrets apply boons based in a 600 raidus around them every 10 seconds. Boon engineers will now be possible

Guardian:
>Amplified Wrath- Burning damage is increased by 33%. Condition Guardians…what else can I say other than FINALLY!
>Radiant Retaliation – Retaliation Damage scales from condition damage instead of power. Again, another buff to condition guardians.

Mesmer:
>Power Block – Enemy skills that you interrupt have an increased cooldown of 10s. This opens up an avenue that we have never seen before. Mesmer’s complately devoted to interrupting you or bosses.
>Triumphant Distortion – Gain 3s of distortion upon killing an enemy. No cooldown. This….THIS, opens the avenue for Killstreak invincibility mesmers.

Necromancer:
>Spite: Parasitic Contagion – A % of your condition damage heals you (5%, not affected by healing power). Condition damage sustain builds, yes they do exist now but the viability of then is questionable.
> Blood Magic: Unholy Martyr – Draw 1 condition from allies every 3 seconds while in death shroud. Each time you draw a condition, gain 5% life force.
>Unholy Sanctuary- Regenerate health while you are in death shroud (this is the only method currently to physically regen your HP while in death shroud – it is same as healing from regen, will scale with your healing power). both of the above work very well together giving you a necro build purely for removing conditions from allies
>Soul Reaping: Renewing Blast – Life Blast heal allies that it passes through. (~800 heal per blast, scales up with healing power). Paired with any of the above traits makes for an excellent support necromancer.

Ranger:
>Read the Wind: Longbow and Harpoon Gun projectile velocity is increased by 100%. Try dodging those longbow arrows now!
>Strider’s Defense – You have a 15% chance to block ranged attacks while in melee. not sure how I feel about this one but I can see a huge number of melee rangers coming out of the shadows now – paired with sword/dagger this could be a deadly combo.
> Invigorating Bond- Your pet heals in an area when executing command abilities (i.e. your F2 skill now heals in an area). new options for support/sustain rangers

Warrior:
>Burst Precision – Burst skills have an increased chance to critically hit ( Chance: 100%) not sure how I feel about this one either but I can see more shout/burst warriors around rather than the Hambow noobs we have now.
> Dual Wield Agility- Your attack speed is increased by 10% when wielding a sword, axe or mace in your offhand. Again, more incentive to build for a dual wield
>Rousing Resilience – Gain toughness when you break out of a stun. The amount of toughness gained is up to 1000, based on your level and lasts for 4 seconds……..OH NOES

Chanra.3561:

Guys…..It’s mainly critical damage through your traits that is being nerfed, the armour sets are staying relatively the same as they were before with only slight decreases in damage output.

At the moment you can gain a total of 30% critical damage through your traits but after the update the total will be exactly 20% critical damage. Zerker build will still be as viable as ever and I do not understand why this post has been so negative towards it.

It’s the trinkets that are actually being hit the hardest, going from 44% crit damage for the set to 25% (with one point of ferocity left over). That is a decrease of 19%, or over 40% of the total. Therein lies the rub, those who invested some in critical damage but not completely get hurt the worst by this change to ferocity, not the much-maligned berserkers.

Meanwhile, I’ll keep wearing PVT in large-scale pve content where 90% of the time zerker is absolute kitten.

Oh, and has ANYONE even mentioned the fact that they’re changing weapon sigils, on top of the fact that a lot of classes have plenty of on-crit traits? An elementalist for example, after this update in particular, is going to be capable of, on a crit, stealing health (potentially in an aoe, never really tested/paid attention), burning (in an aoe), blinding (possibly in an aoe, not enough info on the new GM trait), bursting a flame sigil (aoe fire blast for more damage), and probably inflicting more damage with either on-crit aoes or on-crit conditions (aoe torment anyone?) in the second sigil.

Sure, they can nerf crit damage, but I seriously doubt anyone’s going for assassin’s gear strictly for the damage bonus with crit damage. They’re more likely going for the near/above 100% critical chance for other procs.

Indeed, the Trinkets are being nerfed but I guess it’s ok….My guardian runs 3000 power, 77% crit chance, 102% crit damage and 1800 toughness. IMO that is very OP used alongside of meditation/heal trait.

haviz.1340:

Nike.2631:

No… we already have humungous quantities of healing available… we need healing to be relevant. Right now the Lone Wolf builds are entirely self-sufficient even through the most challenging scenarios the game has to offer. The coefficient of relevance for healing is currently ZERO. Fully double the outgoing heals people can deliver and there will still be no call for them in speed clear groups.

The real problem is the band between irrelevant and absolutely required is very, very narrow, and bouncing all the way across that band from where we are now to hard requirements for a healer in group benefits no one. Not even the people who like playing healers. They are gonna have to creep up on that sweet spot slowly to not overshoot, and unfortunately this Balance Team is glacial on the best of days. Unsatisfied healing-gameplay fans may have already moved on in substantial numbers before they come anywhere near striking a good balance.

I love playing healers and I’m already having fun with my water ele. And the stuff that comes with new patch, man, that’s gonna put them on piedestal.

Who are you, and what have you done with haviz?

And what does healing have to do with Ferocity?

Everything.

Ferocity contributes to a fast kill time. If you are killing as fast as the game allows and you still can’t kill it before it kills you, you have to extend your survival times until you’ve flipped the curves back in your favor.

Any tweak to healing – especially base healing with no Heal Power commitment – directly impacts the effectiveness of the entire DPS proposition and every stat in it.

nightwulf.1986:

I have to disagree when you say that, ultimately, combat boils down to killing an enemy the soonest. Grammar aside, I think you are trying to say that combat is meant to be an endless speed run. I feel this is a very limited view on how players interact with combat. Defeating your foe is indeed the goal of engaging in combat (most times) but what if you want or need to delay your foe? What if you want to control enemy placement on the battlefield to take pressure off of a team mate or perhaps the battle calls for turning a foe into a pawn out of necessity? Combat can be and currently is about more than aiming for highest dps. Even with the zerker meta, there are more factors to surviving than killing your enemy as fast as you can. The issue Anet is attempting to address is how heavily those other factors are weighted in combat and what contributes to or detracts from them with regard to the tools (stats, traits, etc.) professions have available to them.

The problem with all your “what if” scenarios is they simply don’t exist in the game. Maybe in wvw (I wouldn’t know since I don’t play that aspect of the game), but, in pve bosses all have defiance. So, control builds still won’t be viable. As the game is currently designed, everything is a DPS check. Until the core design of the game changes, content that isn’t lazily designed is added or the defiance mechanic is removed, no change in the ferocity/crit damage will ever change the meta of zerk.

Nike.2631:

Everything.

Ferocity contributes to a fast kill time. If you are killing as fast as the game allows and you still can’t kill it before it kills you, you have to extend your survival times until you’ve flipped the curves back in your favor.

Any tweak to healing – especially base healing with no Heal Power commitment – directly impacts the effectiveness of the entire DPS proposition and every stat in it.

So, basically, you just want the game to be changed to they way you like to play it? As a healer?

The problem with taking away DPS is anet’s only solution for harder content is to add more HP and harder hitting enemies, which is a large reason why the meta has tended toward high DPS builds in the first place. Instead of changing all the stats and acting like it’s to make it easier to understand (as if it was very difficult before), why not create better content that isn’t solved solely by having the highest DPS available?

That is the only thing that will change people’s mindset on build variety and moving away from the zerk (DPS) meta.

The Revenant.4970:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

…

Don’t you go bringing reason into here! Are you mad?! People’s gotta take out their real-world aggression on this game!

I take offense to this, frankly. What you’re stating is that negative feedback is caused because of real-world aggression problems and/or personality disorders rather than any kind of thought or analysis on a subject or activity in which someone decides to invest their time into which has been changed in their opinion for the worse.

But back on topic:
I still do not understand the concept of why adjusting numbers and creating a scale with a nerf in mind is considered to be “normalizing.” Other sets without the stat will not gain access to it, so why then simply not just create the numbers to net the same results they do now?

And why are full-DPS parties a problem? If each individual is playing a selfish build and is skilled enough to kill the boss and act as an individual, why should they be punished for playing squishy DPS, especially if the gaps in potential for non-DPS builds exist due to inherent monster and level design flaws rather than number-crunching damage? Yes, the berserker/DPS meta is not supportive of diverse parties, but it’s the repercussion of having active damage mitigation and the developer vision of allowing for all content to be beaten without the “holy trinity.” Suppressing the efficiency of certain stats in hopes to make all stat combinations have the same damage yields is bad design and frankly is a problem pertaining to the monsters and dungeon mechanics rather than how stats work.

As it stands now, there’s little incentive to build all-defense or all-healing. There’s very little incentive to build all-support. That’s what the game was designed around. And because of this, players looking for faster money and faster dungeons want more damage. Are they in the wrong and should damage values subsequently be tweaked?

No. Why should they be? It’s their time they’re spending, after all. Who is to judge how they should deem they should spend it aside from themselves? Nobody. Requesting an all-berserker DPS party is a choice. Kicking people who aren’t is a choice. These players are going to min-max their time regardless of what’s in the meta. And if they deem content too slow, then they will get up and quit. Is that the mentality a business should be using in regards to their clients? Absolutely not.

Are players to blame for the toxicity for recognizing that one-shot kill mechanics are frequently used, and that to better increase chances of survivability, simply reducing the number of times they need to dodge such attacks is in their best interest?

No. These kinds of implementations are what’s toxic. What’s better, to defeat something before it can counter-attack (100% effective) or just hope your individual units are good enough to handle the attacks dished out repeatedly? The former. We’ve all had that dungeon run that goes on for hours because a few party members couldn’t get their act together. PVT, berserker, a lot of new abilities just instantly slay an un-skilled player. So then why bother running defensive stats at all? And that’s exactly the meta we’re in.

Just nerfing the best DPS to make content take more time isn’t a solution to this kind of toxic play. This requires mob behavior and dungeon overhauls. This requires supportive and defensive play to have a real impact on boss killing speed or control.

Let bosses be staggered, increase exclusivity on CC removal from offensive bonuses. Increase CC potency from bosses. Have healing be toxic and deal damage to enemies.

It doesn’t matter how much they nerf berserker/DPS builds. It won’t stop the meta and toxicity. All it does is remove diversity and remove the distinctions from players. All it does it put stricter guidelines on people and make kicking members from parties more frequent if one single wipe occurs. People will still want the fastest runs possible.

ANet needs to recognize this fact. That’s why ferocity is a failure. It’s a failure because it’s a clear representation that ANet doesn’t understand the real reasoning behind why certain behaviors are occurring in the game, and that they don’t have the slightest clue on how to genuinely resolve them aside from poking numbers with a stick hoping it’ll get better.

Admitting the cause of a problem is the first step to solving it. And so far, we’ve only seen promises of the future (note especially the ranger class – even from its conception if you trace the development process it went through) which have proven empty or simply inadequate. Ferocity thus is is a failed solution – even before release – because even in the greater scheme of things, it does nothing to address the so-called problem that it’s designed to resolve.

cranked.3812:

So, basically, you just want the game to be changed to they way you like to play it? As a healer?

Nope. If you’re reading my posts at all you’ll see my desire is more that they hit a balance point where for example 5 pure DPS and 4 pure DPS + 1 DPS/Support hybrid are considered comparable solutions amongst highly skilled players. Where the risks for rolling pure DPS are high enough that while the fastest 4+1 run is always slower than the highest mono-5, the average time for the two is pretty similar because the mono-5 wipes maybe 1 try in 4 while the 4+1 wipes around 1 try in 10.

The problem with taking away DPS is anet’s only solution for harder content is to add more HP and harder hitting enemies, which is a large reason why the meta has tended toward high DPS builds in the first place. Instead of changing all the stats and acting like it’s to make it easier to understand (as if it was very difficult before), why not create better content that isn’t solved solely by having the highest DPS available?

And I’m agreeing with you that just reducing DPS until DPSing breaks is not a fun or elegant solution. On they other hand I think we’re all in agreement that the DPS nerf isn’t big enough to have changed things – it’s just part of an overall strategy of smaller pressures, some of which haven’t been announced yet. I’m just pointing out that if you want to curb the exuberance for pure-DPS builds the place to do it isn’t nerfing the damage output, its tweaking the incredibly high survivability for 0 stat commitment. That is where the pure DPS build is most vulnerable. A very small hit – smaller than the Ferocity nerf – along that axis and the entire role could be snuffed out. Not a desirable outcome either.

cranked.3812:

nightwulf.1986:

I have to disagree when you say that, ultimately, combat boils down to killing an enemy the soonest. Grammar aside, I think you are trying to say that combat is meant to be an endless speed run. I feel this is a very limited view on how players interact with combat. Defeating your foe is indeed the goal of engaging in combat (most times) but what if you want or need to delay your foe? What if you want to control enemy placement on the battlefield to take pressure off of a team mate or perhaps the battle calls for turning a foe into a pawn out of necessity? Combat can be and currently is about more than aiming for highest dps. Even with the zerker meta, there are more factors to surviving than killing your enemy as fast as you can. The issue Anet is attempting to address is how heavily those other factors are weighted in combat and what contributes to or detracts from them with regard to the tools (stats, traits, etc.) professions have available to them.

The problem with all your “what if” scenarios is they simply don’t exist in the game. Maybe in wvw (I wouldn’t know since I don’t play that aspect of the game), but, in pve bosses all have defiance. So, control builds still won’t be viable. As the game is currently designed, everything is a DPS check. Until the core design of the game changes, content that isn’t lazily designed is added or the defiance mechanic is removed, no change in the ferocity/crit damage will ever change the meta of zerk.

I think some of my what ifs do exist. Controlling/Delaying enemy placement: Warrior with staggering blow, kick, bolas. Necro with tainted shackles, fear. Mesmer with illusionary wave. Thief with stealth, etc. I think you can see what I meant. These things are used. They are, and I’m sure you know that too. Even in the best case scenario, you can only kill as fast as the game allows and it’s not difficult to find yourself without dodges in some of the tougher fights and find the mob/boss is still on you. Bosses are more affected than normal mobs because of defiance. It is simply not possible to win all battles through DPS and dodging. When that happens, you are forced to rely on the other elements of combat (healing/support/control). As it stands though, you can win a significantly large number of fights by just burning down the enemy and using a well timed dodge. Anet apparently agrees that this is some sort of issue that needs fixin.

Ok. You make a point that I agree with. Certain core design mechanics have to be changed in order to make more builds viable. as some have pointed out, it really is a complicated and delicate issue on where they push the lines for each of these mechanics and elements. However, I think you are still mistaking the Ferocity change as some sort of significant part in the larger attempt to open up build variety. Ferocity is more important to simplifying/streamlining how crit damage is calculated than it is to the larger effort of opening up more viable builds beyond straight dps. It won’t make any significant headway toward that effort by itself. You are right.

haviz.1340:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I don’t really see how the trinity can solve anything. In fact, the trinity will just remove the possible potential for any if it to be solved.

By linearising roles, it won’t be the players finding zerking to be the best way to tackle everything (although I still don’t agree with that), it would be the game itself forcing everyone down a particular route.

Support = Healing and that’s what we need. More and better healing.

No. This game doesn’t need that. I think you were thinking of that other mainstream MMO out there.

DeceiverX.8361:

And why are full-DPS parties a problem? If each individual is playing a selfish build and is skilled enough to kill the boss and act as an individual, why should they be punished for playing squishy DPS, especially if the gaps in potential for non-DPS builds exist due to inherent monster and level design flaws rather than number-crunching damage?

Because they’re NOT being punished particularly. For a strategy to become so wildly prevalent, the skill requirement actually has to be pretty low. To paraphrase Loki “If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.” Well, it’s not everybody but a lot of people ARE doing it. Not everyone who wears berserker and succeeds is actually that great a player and even this small change is going to make that more apparent.

Ferocity thus is is a failed solution – even before release – because even in the greater scheme of things, it does nothing to address the so-called problem that it’s designed to resolve.

If it did “nothing” we wouldn’t be seeing this level of outcry . We’ve seen people regularly arguing “well, now the 4 good zerkers can’t carry the cleric any more…” That is the sound of the slack being taken up, pulling the cords tight before another small change somewhere else uses that built-up tension to snap the current meta like a tree branch. You’re absolutely right: the damage nerf isn’t enough to change things… by itself.

It won’t be by itself before long.

We haven’t seen the rest of the balance pass notes for this patch. We also have seen them split up OBVIOUS components of the same change like reducing the availability of vigor to all profession over two patches.

haviz.1340:

Nike.2631:

No… we already have humungous quantities of healing available… we need healing to be relevant. Right now the Lone Wolf builds are entirely self-sufficient even through the most challenging scenarios the game has to offer. The coefficient of relevance for healing is currently ZERO. Fully double the outgoing heals people can deliver and there will still be no call for them in speed clear groups.

The real problem is the band between irrelevant and absolutely required is very, very narrow, and bouncing all the way across that band from where we are now to hard requirements for a healer in group benefits no one. Not even the people who like playing healers. They are gonna have to creep up on that sweet spot slowly to not overshoot, and unfortunately this Balance Team is glacial on the best of days. Unsatisfied healing-gameplay fans may have already moved on in substantial numbers before they come anywhere near striking a good balance.

I love playing healers and I’m already having fun with my water ele. And the stuff that comes with new patch, man, that’s gonna put them on piedestal.

Yeah I agree. This game needs more condi bunkers, more PVT facetanks and A LOT more clerics heal spammers. Hopefully by nerfing dps builds, we will see more of these challenging and interesting playstyles/builds.

I want to play a super safe cleric bunker guardian & still have the kill speed of full zerker, because I am sick of seeing “lfg 5 zerkers” and they are not skilled. I think this is only fair.

Thanks.

fadeaway.2807:

I want to play a super safe cleric bunker guardian & still have the kill speed of full zerker, because I am sick of seeing “lfg 5 zerkers” and they are not skilled. I think this is only fair.

Thanks.

Honestly, no one playing more defensive builds wants or expects their best time to match that of people playing balls-out full-tilt killify-them-all builds. They just want doing so to be risky enough that its the province of the truly awesome and not the bandwagon presumption of DPS-posers everywhere.

Jeeze… Wouldn’t you like to take some pride — to get some actual respect — for succeeding at something difficult rather than doing what’s the obvious play under the current system?

Nike.2631:

fadeaway.2807:

I want to play a super safe cleric bunker guardian & still have the kill speed of full zerker, because I am sick of seeing “lfg 5 zerkers” and they are not skilled. I think this is only fair.

Thanks.

Honestly, no one playing more defensive builds wants or expects their best time to match that of people playing balls-out full-tilt killify-them-all builds. They just want doing so to be risky enough that its the province of the truly awesome and not the bandwagon presumption of DPS-posers everywhere.

Jeeze… Wouldn’t you like to take some pride — to get some actual respect — for succeeding at something difficult rather than doing what’s the obvious play under the current system?

I’m so pleased non zerk users are looking out for me, setting how risky content should be for me and ensuring that I can feel pride!

If after the Ferocity changes they are not happy with the risk I take on when doing dungeons et al, I do so hope they come onto these forums and ask for more nerfs. I mean, they are the arbiters of how I should play the game right. If you think theres one too many “LF1M exp zerk” post on the LFG tool after the changes, get right on here and ask for the nerfs which will save us all.

All hail the facetanks and healspammers!