Guild Wars 2

Sure. The implication being “nothing’s changed in every other area”… when the only thing that has changed impacts every other area.

Better? Sorry for the shorthand.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Everyone has an opinion, most of them are horrible. The majority of mine are deleted, and for good reason :P I’m also a huge Danicia fanboy now, so disregard that.

I was a Danicia fanboy before it was cool!

Now at people against the change: nobody at Arenanet stole your lunch money, if you think they did a bad job with the game you simply say so without all the useless anger. Is it that hard?

SpyderArachnid.5619:

OptimusPrimo.9547:

I don’t see the issue with “You have been warned” being used in the final line. It’s just there to denote the seriousness of the post. It more or less relates to the paragraph just above it.

The whole post itself is a warning on it’s own to inform you of the consequences. There is no reason to add the “You have been warned” line at the bottom. It is threatening and unnecessary when the whole post already states that.

You don’t need to add the extra emphasis at the end to warn people when the post itself clearly states exactly that. It is aggressive, threatening, and unprofessional.

I agree. Extremely unprofessional. By the way, am I allowed to say this?

Lord Kuru.3685:

I agree. Extremely unprofessional. By the way, am I allowed to say this?

According to the new rules… it depends on the individual Moderator’s mood.

Look at it this way:

As I stated before, angry players make for rude remarks. Until communication starts being heard at the top and players realize that they are actually being listened to, things won’t change.

And when I say listened, I don’t mean sparse red post saying, “Truth is, we do listen and read forum threads and player feedback.” Stop it. Skimming is not the same as reading.

Danica, could you folks look into the +1 function to see if it’s working properly? I’m seeing many posts here with the +1 grayed out as if I upvoted it when I clearly did not.

Regina Buenaobra.6193:

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

On the other note, the amount of mistakes, condescending comments and trigger happy responses from the black post mods at times is disappointing. There have been plenty of times I have seen threads closed when they were not doing any harm or worse, when developers were posting and discussing things with users…

If you want to achieve a better community environment, it needs to come from both sides and ensuring those mods treat customers with respect. Sure, a game forum harbors negative attitudes, but Chris’s posts from last week are defiantly an improvement. Look at my post history for example – I was ‘infracted’ for posting a thread saying that on my server, gold sellers had gotten around your flood control and had been spamming for hours on end even after being reported frequently. The entire mapchat was, for hours, gold seller spam. My thread was infracted and deleted for including an image as proof that it was occuring. How is that supposed to make someone feel? They go out of their way to try to let you know a problem and that is how your mods respond? Even if including a picture was bad in their eyes, removing it would have taken far less time than it does to delete a thread/infract/post notification etc.

Common respect goes both ways. Posting ‘you have been warned’ does not exemplify a respectful or mature environment. Please don’t ban me for having an opinion. I go out of my way to try to help you guys out (I made the original suggestion for the way of gathering feedback on the forum Chris said they are looking to implement), but sometimes trying to be calm and respectful is hard with the nature of how your mods treat people…

It is explicitly against the forum Code of Conduct to report in-game violations on the forums. While we appreciate the assistance, reports about gold sellers should go through the proper channels, through Customer Support, and not on the forums. Forum moderators are not able to ban gold sellers from the game. I understand that it can be upsetting to receive a warning when you were just trying to help. We need to keep the forums clean so that discussion can take place and it’s not disrupted by reports that don’t belong there. I’m sorry that you were upset, but it is the moderators’ role to remove threads that go against the Code of Conduct. Providing a warning to forum users is just a heads-up to not do it again.

I won’t argue with you regarding that specific scenario, even if I disagree I understand where you are coming from and respect your opinion, but the premise of my post remains. That ‘you have been warned’ remark is condescending and removes the ‘we want to make this a better community’ tone of the post and changes it to ‘group think incoming, prepare yourself children’.

Also, in said example thread, a moderator posting saying “Thank you for the report, we are aware of gold sellers and will close this off now. If you notice further gold sellers, please report in game as we cannot ban via the forums” would just be so much more pleasant and far better communication… isn’t that your goal in the first place…

Wolfheart.1938:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Everyone has an opinion, most of them are horrible. The majority of mine are deleted, and for good reason :P I’m also a huge Danicia fanboy now, so disregard that.

I was a Danicia fanboy before it was cool!

Is that sarcasm? Very hard to tell, and unwanted. Please tell me.

CC Danicia.1394:

Tekyn.5376:

So my question is if this were to happen again today with the new policy would I be banned for 2 weeks? If I write a post that has the target audience of the ArenaNet developers and the post is 100% constructive and helpful will that post be removed and will I get banned?

Thank you.

Nope, you wouldn’t be banned at all. We do have it in the forum rules about staff call outs, using “Hey ArenaNet or Hey DevName”. We tend to send warning infractions on that, to point folks to the Code of Conduct.

A 2-week suspension would be if you said “Hey ArenaNet/DevName, kitten kitten kitten and kitten you”.

Can I get a clarification on what kind of kitten or kittens each of the staff members like?

On topic:
Swearing at a dev or staff member is something that I agree should be punishable with a ban.

CC Danicia.1394:

Nike.2631:

Then why did you just say “Nothing’s changed”? Why the placating language when the goal is direct, hopefully positive change?

The “Nothing’s Changed” is response to all the rest of the forum rules.

Fair point. I misunderstood you and appreciate the clarification.

I will however reiterate that a change to ‘things that could reflect (negatively) upon a developer’ covers literally EVERYTHING that is on topic for these boards.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Wolfheart.1938:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Everyone has an opinion, most of them are horrible. The majority of mine are deleted, and for good reason :P I’m also a huge Danicia fanboy now, so disregard that.

I was a Danicia fanboy before it was cool!

Is that sarcasm? Very hard to tell, and unwanted. Please tell me.

I was joking, chill out. Let’s not derail the thread.

Thing is, I think this has been given too much attention imo. As a frequent forum user I’ve seen an extremely low amount of posts that could qualify as ban-deserving.

CC Danicia.1394:

A 2-week suspension would be if you said “Hey ArenaNet/DevName, kitten kitten kitten and kitten you”.

I just want to say I smiled a little envisioning all the ANet developers being as allergic to cats as I am.

Because pushing that many kittens towards me could be a genuinely fatal ‘personal attack’ .

Wolfheart.1938:

Thing is, I think this has been given too much attention imo. As a frequent forum user I’ve seen an extremely low amount of posts that could qualify as ban-deserving.

How could you? Those posts get deleted.

Nike.2631:

quaniesan.8497:

Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.

Careful. That’s both clever AND non-constructive. Under the New Order you’re a goner.

Dramatic death wail NOooooooooo Just kidding.
Anyways, I guess this is what it means by media censoring. No need to move to China to experience it. I don’t care if they ban those who outright uses explicit and stuff, no argument there. But it is kinda scary the term “negative criticism” is left to Anet to interpret it in entirety in such a broad terminology and we are helpless against it. There are thinned skin people out there that snaps at a “hello there”. IMHO, this is a step too far.

Wolfheart.1938:

I was joking, chill out. Let’s not derail the thread.

Thing is, I think this has been given too much attention imo. As a frequent forum user I’ve seen an extremely low amount of posts that could qualify as ban-deserving.

Well then, didn’t mean to go mental on you :P Sorry, bad day. Derailing this thread more :p

Nike.2631:

Wolfheart.1938:

Thing is, I think this has been given too much attention imo. As a frequent forum user I’ve seen an extremely low amount of posts that could qualify as ban-deserving.

How could you? Those posts get deleted.

Simple really, I get there before a mod does.

What’s more interesting is what are considered “cleverly disguised” personal attacks? Could a mod make an example? The one Danicia did clearly isn’t cleverly disguised :p

Edit:
Or say, here’s a post from the forums, hoping that me quoting a forum user is not an infraction of any rule
“Just wait until the students hit level 80…. then the teacher will teach the students about motion and gravity when he throws the box into a garbage can”

How does that cope with the new change in rules?

Mark Katzbach.9084:

Karizee.8076:

Danica, could you folks look into the +1 function to see if it’s working properly? I’m seeing many posts here with the +1 grayed out as if I upvoted it when I clearly did not.

This is a javascript issue and only affects the display and not the actual vote. This is on our list to fix, but we do have some higher priority forum issues ahead of it.

Awesome, thank-you

Mark Katzbach.9084:

This is on our list to fix, but we do have some higher priority forum issues ahead of it.

This is me, letting possibly the most easy ‘straight line’ ever go by without a joke.

Other than the implied one.

kitten .

I did try.

:)

I welcome these changes. I welcome the harsher treatment of those who clearly insult others or the product of other people’s work or who make accusatory claims.

I do worry about there being a very fine line that might trip people up. I know I accidentally crossed that line long ago when I said that I thought someone was trolling… got an infraction for that. I guess the correct thing to have said was “I think so-and-so is deliberately trying to start an argument”, but I’m not sure actually. People saying deliberately inflammatory things is a problem on forums due to a lack of accountability and as such I do think it is of value to point it out when it seems to be happening so that others do not get hooked into a fake argument.

But anyway, I look forward to a more respectful forum.

CC Danicia.1394:

Niim.9260:

You did not answer the overall question. Profanity, name-calling pretty easy to define. The issue is the vagueness of the term ‘personal attack’ in light of the fact that the moderation team has a rather…. random approach to moderation.

Also for the record ‘you have been warned’ comment makes people take the official post…. probably in a different direction than intended.

We’re definitely working on retooling and improving Moderation and messaging.
Using locoman.1974’s post to reiterate:

Constructive:
“I don’t like the way Anet is handling the game”
“I find this new dungeon path boring because XXXX”
“I think these armor/weapon designs are ugly”

Insulting & non-constructive:
“Anet isn’t competent enough with this game”
“Anet lied to us”
“Fire whoever designed this dungeon/weapon/armor”
“whoever designes this dungeon/weapon/armor clearly has no clue”

You can discuss things we’ve said (manifesto, dev posts, blog posts, interviews) and disagree with them or even criticize. We’re okay with that. When it crosses over to insults is where we draw the line.

Of the 4 examples of insulting or non-constructive, I feel only the last 2 fit that criteria. I do not get how addressing Anet as a whole is a personal attack for one thing and secondly, saying someone is lying or not competent can be very constructive. Assuming that the above statements were real , it tells you that a portion of your player base strongly feel you lied to them to make such a statement. Another is that a portion of your player base feels that your company is incompetent maybe due to the longlist of ongoing bugs that has existed since release? The immense delay on the lfg tool, the lack of good class balance and gear etc. These statements can all be used in a constructive manner depend on your attitude and how you look at it. Something I often use is, if you’re professional enough, you can look past it and see what’s really important.

e.g. A good customer service support doesn’t hang up on an angry customer, they calm them down and help them with their real problem.

To finish, i’ll leave a googled definition of constructive here:

con·struc·tive
/k?n?str?ktiv/
Adjective

Serving a useful purpose; tending to build up.

Something like this should’ve been in place since the release of the game. Nothing kitten es me off more towards the gw2 than when they start pointing out certain devs/designers saying it’s their fault for ____ and they’re just treated with such disprespect, it’s disgusting.

Is the 2-week suspension only for people who insult people who work for ArenaNet? Or for people who insult people?

I’d be fine with all of this if it was an across-the-board rule of respect for all of us. It’s a serious issue of basic human respect if not.

Rather than insulting and threatening the players, wouldn’t it be far simpler, and more hilarious, to just add the regular list of suspects when it comes to “insulting words” to the profanity filter?

I can just imagine entire paragraphs full of nothing but the word “kitten” the next time “a player feels” ANet mucked up on balancing or failed to deliver on a promise. Yes, “a player feels” makes it sound less confrontational, but also takes away the impact of the criticism, and simply sounds silly and redundant.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Is the 2-week suspension only for people who insult people who work for ArenaNet? Or for people who insult people?

I’d be fine with all of this if it was an across-the-board rule of respect for all of us. It’s a serious issue of basic human respect if not.

Right like the daily insults that we receive from those who say they don’t want to read constructive yet negative posts but continue to come to the forums and read them and then post threads about how people are posting negative threads that they had a choice not to read considering the titles most use.

Kaleban.9834:

Rather than insulting and threatening the players, wouldn’t it be far simpler, and more hilarious, to just add the regular list of suspects when it comes to “insulting words” to the profanity filter?

I can just imagine entire paragraphs full of nothing but the word “kitten” the next time “a player feels” ANet mucked up on balancing or failed to deliver on a promise. Yes, “a player feels” makes it sound less confrontational, but also takes away the impact of the criticism, and simply sounds silly and redundant.

It would be amusing, but the filters interfere too much as it is. Every major patch the release notes contain some note about balancing kittens.

This is very concerning to me.

In my opinion this is an attempt to gain power and control over these forums, not for the purpose of creating a positive and productive atmosphere, but for the purpose of controlling the content.

The sentence I just wrote, under the new policy could be interpreted as a personal insult under the new rules. Let me explain.

The Dev in this thread posted the following:

Insulting & non-constructive:
“Anet isn’t competent enough with this game”
“Anet lied to us”
“Fire whoever designed this dungeon/weapon/armor”
“whoever designes this dungeon/weapon/armor clearly has no clue”
You can discuss things we’ve said (manifesto, dev posts, blog posts, interviews) and disagree with them or even criticize. We’re okay with that. When it crosses over to insults is where we draw the line.

Its not hard to see what is going on here. ANet has essentially created an environment where any comment that they deem reflects badly on the company (not an individual), will be stricken from the record. They’ve created an environment where users must now very carefully, and very meticulously dance on eggshells to avoid what may or may not be considered a personal insult.

This kind of “force field” moderation will surely work in their favour, but will by no means improve the communication, nor productivity of these forums.

Wow…even writing this post is becoming increasingly difficult as I attempt to find a way to be clear in my criticism, but not “insulting” to an individual, which in ANet’s eyes is also all of ANet.

Perhaps I’ll approach this a different way. Here is what I believe will be the eventual outcome of this new approach to communication.

1. Some players, fully meaning to be fair and constructive will find themselves on the wrong side of interpretation, thus leading to a suspension.

2. As ANet systematically deletes posts and users that they deem “insulting”, players will start to become increasingly agitated and afraid to post.

3. The forums, while visually “positive” to any outside viewer (AKA Google, Game review sites, potential customers), the quality of communication will drop.

4. Eventually ANet will be stuck with a community of players where the majority are free from criticism, and the rest are very, very careful with what they post.

5. Players that have been suspended, are likely to personally feel insulted based on how they interpret the situation, and are less likely in the long run to contribute to the game, or the community.

6. Like other websites/companies that have tried this, what will eventually happen is that players will move to a more open forum where they can vent, communicate, and discuss freely.

I have seen this before on many software, and gaming forums. Whenever a company attempts to put themselves in a position where they can’t be touched, and additionally have the power to suspend, or ban anyone who they feel doesn’t paint them in a positive light, it almost always leads to disaster.

Anyway, based on the moderation practices I’ve personally experienced, I fully expect that my days are numbered here. Once I feel that I can no longer openly and honestly provide my feedback into this game, I will be moving on.

Communication is a two way street, and respect is earned. When an individual or company attempts to control either of those through the use of power, or control, then communication will inevitably break down.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

This is very concerning to me.

In my opinion this is an attempt to gain power and control over these forums, not for the purpose of creating a positive and productive atmosphere, but for the purpose of controlling the content.

The sentence I just wrote, under the new policy could be interpreted as a personal insult under the new rules. Let me explain.

The Dev in this thread posted the following:

Insulting & non-constructive:
“Anet isn’t competent enough with this game”
“Anet lied to us”
“Fire whoever designed this dungeon/weapon/armor”
“whoever designes this dungeon/weapon/armor clearly has no clue”
You can discuss things we’ve said (manifesto, dev posts, blog posts, interviews) and disagree with them or even criticize. We’re okay with that. When it crosses over to insults is where we draw the line.

Its not hard to see what is going on here. ANet has essentially created an environment where any comment that they deem reflects badly on the company (not an individual), will be stricken from the record. They’ve created an environment where users must now very carefully, and very meticulously dance on eggshells to avoid what may or may not be considered a personal insult.

This kind of “force field” moderation will surely work in their favour, but will by no means improve the communication, nor productivity of these forums.

Wow…even writing this post is becoming increasingly difficult as I attempt to find a way to be clear in my criticism, but not “insulting” to an individual, which in ANet’s eyes is also all of ANet.

Perhaps I’ll approach this a different way. Here is what I believe will be the eventual outcome of this new approach to communication.

1. Some players, fully meaning to be fair and constructive will find themselves on the wrong side of interpretation, thus leading to a suspension.

2. As ANet systematically deletes posts and users that they deem “insulting”, players will start to become increasingly agitated and afraid to post.

3. The forums, while visually “positive” to any outside viewer (AKA Google, Game review sites, potential customers), the quality of communication will drop.

4. Eventually ANet will be stuck with a community of players where the majority are free from criticism, and the rest are very, very careful with what they post.

5. Players that have been suspended, are likely to personally feel insulted based on how they interpret the situation, and are less likely in the long run to contribute to the game, or the community.

I have seen this before on many software, and gaming forums. Whenever a company attempts to put themselves in a position where they can’t be touched, and additionally have the power to suspend, or ban anyone who they feel doesn’t paint them in a positive light, it almost always leads to disaster.

Anyway, based on the moderation practices I’ve personally experienced, I fully expect that my days are numbered here. Once I feel that I can no longer openly and honestly provide my feedback into this game, I will be moving on.

Communication is a two way street, and respect is earned. When an individual or company attempts to control either of those through the use of power, or control, then communication will inevitably break down.

An amazing post

Well said and very well worded!

Something to keep in mind: not everyone is capable of Shakespearean prose. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be heard. For example,

“OMG why I shot weppin racks n monkster kell me! Fixit!”

is no less informative than

“Verily, I am become wroth to a degree most excessive! For when I wouldst fain unleash upon mine most immediate foes an attack of compellingly destructive and irrefragable force, I am undone – alas! – by misdirection and strike instead at yonder rack of weapons. Thus, I am come hither to present unto the powers that be this most necessitous request: that they be moved to effect some form of repair upon this inconstant means of targeting opponents, and forthwith, permitting thereby no undue portion of time to pass ere such is wrought. Kthxbaieth!”

TL;DR: all that is gold does not glitter.

The filter is… ((looks both ways… looks up to see if ban hammer is poised over head…)) …in a word, dumb.

Make a perfectly ordinary sentence where a word ends with the letter ‘t’, and the next word is ‘its’ and it goes crazy protecting us from boobies. Please note that boobies is NOT filtered.

In any event expanding the filter is not a solution to anything. I already amuse myself constructing my occasional outburst of vitriol in Shakespearean iambic pentameter… don’t make it even more entertaining of a game to express my ire in a fashion that literally dances around the filter .