Guild Wars 2

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

KazNaka.4718:

Just remember: higher hp doesn’t necessarily = more challenging content

I agree. Unfortunately damage and defense scaling reaches a point where it no longer conveys a sense of progression and challenge. For example, once creatures start one-shotting every player, it doesn’t matter how much extra damage they do. We’re also looking into how to meaningfully extend the scalability of FOTM.

Hey Anthony what are your thoughts on cliffside?

That one is, imo, on par with dredge in terms of lenght, whenever my group gets that one they always complain “it’s too long”.

If you guys could reduce its lenght without messing too much with that specific fractal’s concept it would be awesome.

Cliffside might be my favorite dungeon of all times, it is both beutiful and epic.

I would suggest looking at the suggestions made about combat problems in PVE with bosses and the sheer lack of diversity and the lack of the Arenanet Trinity as part of the problems when dealing with the length of these dungeons. I think making everyone pretty much a burst zerker dps build has caused the problem of making bosses with enormous amounts of hitpoints because CC condition damage and support pretty much doesn’t exist in PVE in this title at ALL. Also, there’s the aspect of instakill bosses and bosses that don’t even show a casting cycle when putting out some devastating skill that seem to make things worse!

Halve the hp of some bosses as they take way too long. Not only for fractals but for dungeons too. I am reminded of HOTWP2 where the fish have almost as much health as the boss. Jormag is too long, thats boring. Take two-thirds of his health off.

Like come up with some more short dungeons like COFP1. There is some danger in being last to cross bridge, too slow to run to safety after acolytes are down, dodging boulders, opening gate with a possibly inexperienced party.

COEP1 where you have to cross the force field with three players is fun too. Where you have to fight subject alpha for the third time not so much.

Bring back full fledged stealth kits so we can spam them where we want. Say like TA or dredge fractal.

Have dev hints in dungeons and fractals so we don’t always have to explain things or so we can have something to refer to, on the fly if we need to.

i.e. Ascalon Captain stay way back after his health is below 50% and melee him at beg so npcs can grind him.

Yaso.8510:

Since i have my rings and backpack i barely visited Fractals, there is just no reason.
The only thing that made me run Fractals are the weapon skins but RNG is not really incentive.

This I can’t understand. Every single RPG has RNG-based rewards in dungeons since Dungeons and Dragons. It can not be the problem.

Ouroboros.5076:

Yaso.8510:

Since i have my rings and backpack i barely visited Fractals, there is just no reason.
The only thing that made me run Fractals are the weapon skins but RNG is not really incentive.

This I can’t understand. Every single RPG has RNG-based rewards in dungeons since Dungeons and Dragons. It can not be the problem.

Just to add a bit of levity, it is a problem when you can’t save before a chest, and load the rng you desire. (I am long past that though.)

my personal lvl on fotm is 53, i’ve also played higher lvl like 77, and with good players you can do everythings… btw the first problem is about the man who open the dungeon, cause if he crash or left everyone is ****** and its really annoying, second big problem is reward.. onestly i like fotm, but reward is ridicolus, cause this dungeon can be 1hr or 3hr if u have problems (or in higher lvl) for what? maw chest isnt bad but for some hours it become ridicoulus, better do other dungeons, and with token i cant buy any kind of skin, i’d like to have one kind of token for each ending boss that allow me to buy a skin, and after lvl 50 (51,52,53 till 80) they should drop another kind of token that allow us to buy a special skinn for ascended ONLY
2 new kind of token is not a problem with a wallet, and now u have a reason for do fractals, cause now u can have skin, and high lvl give you special skin for ascended weapon (and armor)

i think that should give a fresh air to fotm, cause atm, i dont have any reason to play it

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

Would you also look into adding a reset button for current level? Me and some friends got Harpies level on our 3rd fractal and the boss bugged out. After trying everything, including dying all at once, we were forced to leave the fractals and start all over again. Please, at least consider.

Knote.2904:

TIMERisk/Reward is probably the most borked thing in this game lol.

Fixed that for you.

LordByron.8369:

Yaso.8510:

Cliffside: Without not touching the mobs at the double seal it is too hard 30+.

Oh i forgot..
1-2 months ago a dev said on this forum he would fix this to clear all and spawn only 2 at each party wipe, basicly resetting the seal as you would find it at 1st attempt.

He said he couldn t give us a date but he was working on it….any news?

Also address the mandatory guardian in fotm issue please

Would made fotm great.

He fixed it, it just wasn’t announced in the patch notes.

Dredge takes way too long, it definitely needs fixing. As for colossus and grawl, they aren’t too bad.

What fractals really needs though, is better rewards. I mean come on, it’s the hardest instance in the game (at high lvls) yet you get way more money doing 3 paths of AC, which is both easier and also faster even with any ‘’kitten-kitten -wuts-dat-dodge-button-thinger-do’’ group you can find.

There’s no real incentive to do any fractal past 28. The drops are crap even at 48. I can do a whole run and only get greens and blues.

One other thing could be to make the fractal weapons that drop in there either A.) Ascended, or B.) a token that atleast lets you choose which weapon you want.

Fractals is my favorite thing to do in the game and I hate to see these problems. :/

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

KazNaka.4718:

Just remember: higher hp doesn’t necessarily = more challenging content

I agree. Unfortunately damage and defense scaling reaches a point where it no longer conveys a sense of progression and challenge. For example, once creatures start one-shotting every player, it doesn’t matter how much extra damage they do. We’re also looking into how to meaningfully extend the scalability of FOTM.

Introduce new mechanics instead of giving them more hp and damage. HP and damage really doesn’t make it harder, it just makes it take longer.

Edit: also, PLEASE make fractal lvls account bound! I don’t have time to level 7 more characters up to lvl48. Sometimes I’m in a group with 3 other guardians, and I can’t bring anything other than my guardian if I want my rewards.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

Please, change or scrap first room of dredge fractal. Those mobs 2shot you on lvl 48 difficulty. Last time I ran it I was insulted that I (guardian) am scared to tank. But how? I use my focus barrier, 2 aegises, heal skill and dodges. It let me live about 30-60 seconds and meanwhile they wanted from me to agro dredge who was constatnly running towards the guy who was opening the gate. It is just not possible to let one guardian do the whole job and agro 10 or so mobs which kill you with 2 shockwaves. Lower the number of dredge here or change it somehow for it to be more fun to play.

Everytime we get dredge fractal it’s like “aaaaaaw, again?!”

Lambros Augustus.6594:

Ouroboros.5076:

Yaso.8510:

Since i have my rings and backpack i barely visited Fractals, there is just no reason.
The only thing that made me run Fractals are the weapon skins but RNG is not really incentive.

This I can’t understand. Every single RPG has RNG-based rewards in dungeons since Dungeons and Dragons. It can not be the problem.

Just to add a bit of levity, it is a problem when you can’t save before a chest, and load the rng you desire. (I am long past that though.)

The problem is a 38+ can take 1.5hrs or more and you get (normally) the same reward as doing 2 meta events that may take 5-10min, the Fractal weapons (and now ascended chances) are the only reason to do higher level fractals (and for some the relics for Alt toons), so the good chance of not even getting a chance to get a weapon and also the idea you cant pick your fractal weapon makes it feel like you completely wasted your 2hours of time.

I dont like Cliffsdie b.c you only get 1 reward at the end, no seals have drops, the boss doesnt drop anything and it is alittle longer and harder if you dont know the “trick” to not killing 1 npc and running to other side stacking in the corner.

Grawl and Shaman you at least get chests/loot at checkpoints, Swamp and water is understandable to not get any, but Cliffside? come on.

Mortifer.2946:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

Please, change or scrap first room of dredge fractal. Those mobs 2shot you on lvl 48 difficulty. Last time I ran it I was insulted that I (guardian) am scared to tank. But how? I use my focus barrier, 2 aegises, heal skill and dodges. It let me live about 30-60 seconds and meanwhile they wanted from me to agro dredge who was constatnly running towards the guy who was opening the gate. It is just not possible to let one guardian do the whole job and agro 10 or so mobs which kill you with 2 shockwaves. Lower the number of dredge here or change it somehow for it to be more fun to play.

Everytime we get dredge fractal it’s like “aaaaaaw, again?!”

In 48’s my group that Ive done it with we went a specially way to "fall into the room with 2 buttons’ (Not saying how) had 2 ppl get there thieves and the other 2 ppl ran down died on buttons, the 3rd person suicide too while the thieves stack Shadow Refused on each other (the 1 cast it 1st then press the gears after 10 sec the 2nd one cast his).

It is not at all how you are suppose to do it, if you HAVE TO exploit just to HAVE A CHANCE to win, then it is a poor design on Anets side.

I used to do a full tank build P/T/H and some P/T/V mix with over 3k Toughness and 1k healing power and to still be killed in seconds I just went full zerk now and we do better than when I have a tank, Tank gets 1 shot then what is the point?

An hour.. AN HOUR… that is nothing at all… 3hrs.. yer i guess… 4/5 hours sure… one hour… go home and cry in a corner..

Not everything should be 30 minutes long.. fractals deffiently NOT… Yer ok some maps are a bit too long tbf.. and as stated being looked into.. but an hour-2hrs is a nice time for fractals in my view.

Id love to know what level fractals your on and what you think 30+ 40+ is gonna be lik e lol

Faux.1937:

Mortifer.2946:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

Please, change or scrap first room of dredge fractal. Those mobs 2shot you on lvl 48 difficulty. Last time I ran it I was insulted that I (guardian) am scared to tank. But how? I use my focus barrier, 2 aegises, heal skill and dodges. It let me live about 30-60 seconds and meanwhile they wanted from me to agro dredge who was constatnly running towards the guy who was opening the gate. It is just not possible to let one guardian do the whole job and agro 10 or so mobs which kill you with 2 shockwaves. Lower the number of dredge here or change it somehow for it to be more fun to play.

Everytime we get dredge fractal it’s like “aaaaaaw, again?!”

In 48’s my group that Ive done it with we went a specially way to "fall into the room with 2 buttons’ (Not saying how) had 2 ppl get there thieves and the other 2 ppl ran down died on buttons, the 3rd person suicide too while the thieves stack Shadow Refused on each other (the 1 cast it 1st then press the gears after 10 sec the 2nd one cast his).

It is not at all how you are suppose to do it, if you HAVE TO exploit just to HAVE A CHANCE to win, then it is a poor design on Anets side.

I used to do a full tank build P/T/H and some P/T/V mix with over 3k Toughness and 1k healing power and to still be killed in seconds I just went full zerk now and we do better than when I have a tank, Tank gets 1 shot then what is the point?

Agree, full P/V/T set doesn’t do what it should. There are very few instances when those extra HP and armor helps.
And I know about that exploit way. As long as I know it doesn’t work for few months now. There was also another exploit way but it doesn’t work anymore either.

Ouroboros.5076:

Yaso.8510:

Since i have my rings and backpack i barely visited Fractals, there is just no reason.
The only thing that made me run Fractals are the weapon skins but RNG is not really incentive.

This I can’t understand. Every single RPG has RNG-based rewards in dungeons since Dungeons and Dragons. It can not be the problem.

You don’t see the point ;-)
Opening the daily chest feels like trying to get a Halloween Skin…
In 300+ Runs at LV20+ 5 people got a skin 4 of them got trident or warhorn…
If you are in a dungeon for 1-3 hours you want to see some progress at the end but after you have 2 rings and a backpack you are wasting your time in hopes of getting the skin you want.
There are 19 Skins, i think i don’t have to say what "Never"divided by 19 is…
They are Accountbound, they could have a higher droprate, you can’t sell them at all.
You did 20+ and dedicated a lot of your time for it, the Weapons only drop 20+ so only people who really did fractals could get the skins.
A droprate this low would only be acceptable if you could sell the skins.
I wanted the Greatsword for my Guardian so badly, but it was way easier for me to get a legendary than that skin…

this posts all just disappoint me :/ i think fractals are great i like the fact that they aren’t too short :P 2 hours to do a run? fine by me. i’ve gotten 2 pre-cursors from fracs 8 of the frac wep skins and i roughly make 3-5g per frac run i don think they need to do anything to fractals besides make sure we don’t get dredge grawl and cliffside all in 1 run through!

The numbers of Empyreal Fragments rewarded should be incresed, considered the time required to complete an average fractal vs some dungeons. I agree aswell that higher tiers fractals should have a chance of dropping ascended crafting mats.

On a side note, is there any infos on the plans for the non-infused items? Are we going to have a full set of infused items or it’s only going to be rings/back?

I’m asking cause atm I rather not invest on the non-infused items cause I don’t want to waste infusions/skins.

HardRider.2980:

An hour.. AN HOUR… that is nothing at all… 3hrs.. yer i guess… 4/5 hours sure… one hour… go home and cry in a corner..

Not everything should be 30 minutes long.. fractals deffiently NOT… Yer ok some maps are a bit too long tbf.. and as stated being looked into.. but an hour-2hrs is a nice time for fractals in my view.

Id love to know what level fractals your on and what you think 30+ 40+ is gonna be lik e lol

I love fractals, but after having multi characters in high levels and never once getting any weapons or rings out of it that actually benifits me. So, 2hrs for something that I no longer enjoy b.c of bugs, impossible odds and not getting the rewards worth it, when I could simply run Cof p1/p2, SE p1/p3 and maybe TA Up and f/f in the same amount of time (dungeons I also enjoy) and it is worth my time.

Yes its a game, yes play to enjoy it, but after 3k+ hrs and 9k + achievement points Im really trying to get things I dont have, and the idea of spending 1-3hrs doing something for a chance of a chance to get something I want that is just for looks while dealing with the fact that its a wipe fest over and over again, in the end there are problems and they need to be fixed.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

best news i have heard regarding this game since the Fractals were released. Thanks

PS. you also have the option of requiring 2 fractals to be completed instead of 3

Yaso.8510:

Ouroboros.5076:

Yaso.8510:

Since i have my rings and backpack i barely visited Fractals, there is just no reason.
The only thing that made me run Fractals are the weapon skins but RNG is not really incentive.

This I can’t understand. Every single RPG has RNG-based rewards in dungeons since Dungeons and Dragons. It can not be the problem.

You don’t see the point ;-)
Opening the daily chest feels like trying to get a Halloween Skin…
In 300+ Runs at LV20+ 5 people got a skin 4 of them got trident or warhorn…
If you are in a dungeon for 1-3 hours you want to see some progress at the end but after you have 2 rings and a backpack you are wasting your time in hopes of getting the skin you want.
There are 19 Skins, i think i don’t have to say what "Never"divided by 19 is…
They are Accountbound, they could have a higher droprate, you can’t sell them at all.
You did 20+ and dedicated a lot of your time for it, the Weapons only drop 20+ so only people who really did fractals could get the skins.
A droprate this low would only be acceptable if you could sell the skins.
I wanted the Greatsword for my Guardian so badly, but it was way easier for me to get a legendary than that skin…

Sad but true, I wanted a Shortbow, Sword, GS and Pistol, I crafted The Dreamer and Quip, Lord Taeres’s Shadow came out and I didnt want the Fractal sword anymore and just bought Lord Taeres’s Shadow before ever getting any of those weapons (and still havent).

If a Legendary is easier to get dont we think something is wrong?

Im only posting so much about this b.c I LOVE FRACTALS and I would love to see them improve.

LordByron.8369:

Yaso.8510:

Cliffside: Without not touching the mobs at the double seal it is too hard 30+.

Oh i forgot..
1-2 months ago a dev said on this forum he would fix this to clear all and spawn only 2 at each party wipe, basicly resetting the seal as you would find it at 1st attempt.

He said he couldn t give us a date but he was working on it….any news?

Also address the mandatory guardian in fotm issue please

Would made fotm great.

P.S. thief are awesome and sought after in fotm….its the 3rd best profession for fotm

Regarding the mandatory guardian issue, it’s not really an issue. You can do a higher level without a Guardian, but Guardian(s) make it waaay easier because of all the projectile reflects.

As for the “thieves are awesome” thing, I’ll agree to a point… ONE thief is sought after in FotM, no more than that. From experience, the best group composition in a 48 that I really enjoy seeing is:

1-2 Guardians
1-2 Warriors
1 Thief
1 Mesmer

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

Thanks for the response Anthony! I like the idea of shortening some of the fractals. I always thought fractals where supposed to be a collection of short “mini-dungeons” which after 3 or 4 added up to an average of about 45mins to an hour. Unfortunately some of the fractals take that amount of time alone (if you’re not running an organized group that is).

People like picking on dredge, but I don’t think it’s too bad, but definately could do with a bit of a shortening. Perhaps removing the middle section (bombs, cannons) and leaving the rest as-is. Another reason I think people pick on the dredge fractal is because, well…no one likes the dredge, they’re such a drag mob to fight :/

A lot of the longer fractals are IMO only lengthly due to one or more factors: Bosses are insanely tank, certain mechanics are repeated far to much (seals in cliffside, do we really need to do 4 sets of seals? It’s the same mechanic all the way till then end, and just becomes tedious).

All in all I enjoy fractals. I think it’s an awesome idea, and the current fractals aren’t terrible or anything, they just need some polishing. Rewards SHOULD be adjusted though, because doing a level 40 fractal and getting only 3 blues from the Maw chest is ultimately an hour or more wasted, and leaves me feeling extremely grumpy >:D

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

KazNaka.4718:

Just remember: higher hp doesn’t necessarily = more challenging content

I agree. Unfortunately damage and defense scaling reaches a point where it no longer conveys a sense of progression and challenge. For example, once creatures start one-shotting every player, it doesn’t matter how much extra damage they do. We’re also looking into how to meaningfully extend the scalability of FOTM.

how can increasing damage to the point that it can actually one shot a player still be considered a valid way of scaling difficulty?

I mean, it not only trivialize the content but also reduce your character and strategy to the minimum leaving nothing but a few stats that are worth (zerk).

Will this eventually change, having smarter and not deadlier fights? or is the idea of you designers to keep this escalation as basic as it is today?

Mesket.5728:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

KazNaka.4718:

Just remember: higher hp doesn’t necessarily = more challenging content

I agree. Unfortunately damage and defense scaling reaches a point where it no longer conveys a sense of progression and challenge. For example, once creatures start one-shotting every player, it doesn’t matter how much extra damage they do. We’re also looking into how to meaningfully extend the scalability of FOTM.

how can increasing damage to the point that it can actually one shot a player still be considered a valid way of scaling difficulty?

I mean, it not only trivialize the content but also reduce your character and strategy to the minimum leaving nothing but a few stats that are worth (zerk).

Will this eventually change, having smarter and not deadlier fights? or is the idea of you designers to keep this escalation as basic as it is today?

IMO a smarter fight is a much more fun fight, killing 1-2 mobs out of 20 and dying to just rez and kill 1-2 mobs more over and over and over and over again isnt harder or more difficult in any way, shape or form.

Any player can do that, HECK you can do that without any armor or trinkets, if your going to die anyways why give yourself a repair cost?

Make a fight that make you think and have to do certain things to pass is what fractals should be all about, small/short mini dungeons that takes good teamwork to beat.

We would see a raise in the need for other gears and will make player skills much better.

I wouldn’t mind adding new content/puzzle elements to the fractals as they grow.

For instance, in the Swamp, make the orbs hurt you, so you not only have to carry them across the swamp, you can’t do it alone, you have to throw it to hand it to a teammate.

Or the Asura + – charges. I love that! More creative fractal exclusive status effects wouldn’t be horrible.

And creating problems that need more pre-play preparation I don’t think would kill it either. Such as needing certain potions/items to make where lower tiers give ingredients, craft the potions/items at a station in the fractals, and those items becuase crucial to surviving the upper level tiers (i.e. curing new effects that might get added alongside agony.)

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

KazNaka.4718:

Just remember: higher hp doesn’t necessarily = more challenging content

I agree. Unfortunately damage and defense scaling reaches a point where it no longer conveys a sense of progression and challenge. For example, once creatures start one-shotting every player, it doesn’t matter how much extra damage they do. We’re also looking into how to meaningfully extend the scalability of FOTM.

Anthony -

Please discuss the scaling problem with the team that created the Aetherblades. They are probably the most legitimately challenging faction in the game at the moment, mostly because their AI and skill sets allow them to work together against the players, rather than just increasing HP and number of foes. Most PvE mobs act as single entities no matter how many of them there are, whereas players start to function as a team without necessarily even realizing it.

Please avoid stun- and KD-locks. It’s ok for enemies to have some of these, but lockdowns are more aggravating than challenging, IMO.

Please create boss mechanics that encourage survivability instead of max DPS. There is a lot of emphasis on DPS right now, and very little on support and survivability. Perhaps an encounter where there is no DPS involved at all? Instead, the player focuses on positioning and avoiding damage, possibly using environmental weapons to damage the boss. The Thermal Core in the Molten Weapons Facility was an enjoyable example, although there was DPS involved. Another example is the barrage phase when fighting Horrik in the Aetherblade dungeon. Most bosses don’t require players to worry about positioning at all, other than pushing the boss against a wall to maximize DPS.

Looking forward to see what your team comes up with.

Faux.1937:

Mesket.5728:

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

KazNaka.4718:

Just remember: higher hp doesn’t necessarily = more challenging content

I agree. Unfortunately damage and defense scaling reaches a point where it no longer conveys a sense of progression and challenge. For example, once creatures start one-shotting every player, it doesn’t matter how much extra damage they do. We’re also looking into how to meaningfully extend the scalability of FOTM.

how can increasing damage to the point that it can actually one shot a player still be considered a valid way of scaling difficulty?

I mean, it not only trivialize the content but also reduce your character and strategy to the minimum leaving nothing but a few stats that are worth (zerk).

Will this eventually change, having smarter and not deadlier fights? or is the idea of you designers to keep this escalation as basic as it is today?

IMO a smarter fight is a much more fun fight, killing 1-2 mobs out of 20 and dying to just rez and kill 1-2 mobs more over and over and over and over again isnt harder or more difficult in any way, shape or form.

Any player can do that, HECK you can do that without any armor or trinkets, if your going to die anyways why give yourself a repair cost?

Make a fight that make you think and have to do certain things to pass is what fractals should be all about, small/short mini dungeons that takes good teamwork to beat.

We would see a raise in the need for other gears and will make player skills much better.

“bolded” within the quote the key word. This game still lacks roles within parties, thus; there is little to none teamwork.

Faux.1937:

HardRider.2980:

An hour.. AN HOUR… that is nothing at all… 3hrs.. yer i guess… 4/5 hours sure… one hour… go home and cry in a corner..

Not everything should be 30 minutes long.. fractals deffiently NOT… Yer ok some maps are a bit too long tbf.. and as stated being looked into.. but an hour-2hrs is a nice time for fractals in my view.

Id love to know what level fractals your on and what you think 30+ 40+ is gonna be lik e lol

I love fractals, but after having multi characters in high levels and never once getting any weapons or rings out of it that actually benifits me. So, 2hrs for something that I no longer enjoy b.c of bugs, impossible odds and not getting the rewards worth it, when I could simply run Cof p1/p2, SE p1/p3 and maybe TA Up and f/f in the same amount of time (dungeons I also enjoy) and it is worth my time.

Yes its a game, yes play to enjoy it, but after 3k+ hrs and 9k + achievement points Im really trying to get things I dont have, and the idea of spending 1-3hrs doing something for a chance of a chance to get something I want that is just for looks while dealing with the fact that its a wipe fest over and over again, in the end there are problems and they need to be fixed.

.. Yer the rewards for fractals (aka the drops) are something to be looked into.. I’ll give you that.. and perhaps with the current stat of things.. 45mins -1hr is .. ideal .. however as their looking into everything from length of maps to rewards.. 1hr-2hr (atm) i say is ideal.
And as you’ve done soo many hours etc you should know on a good run it can be 45mins and if its bad – longer.. and if its high level.. well atm cos its high level things will take time.

This is what I would like to see in Fractals:

1. Fractal Skin Chest – choose your skin like the Ascended Weapon Chests.

2. More uses for Relics and Pristine Relics:
a. 3:1 trade for other dungeon tokens
b. Additional items from the fractal vendor: potions/pets at a minimum
c. Fractal Armor or at least Fractal Runes

3. Fractal specific recepies for items that require pristine relic(s) as an ingredient.

4. No more Account Bound Exotics

5. Retro GW1 skins only available in Fractals.

6. Gambit Fractals – let us choose some disadvantages in exchange for fabulous rewards.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

Remove the bomb and turret events and just go straight to Rabsovich, all problems solved.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

If you do that keep in mind that it’ll greatly diminish what makes Fractals stand out among your instanced content, which is the unpredictable aspect. Notably it would also lead to probably unforeseen by you cheesetactics like rerolling the first Fractal over and over again and hoping for the easiest/shortest of the designated “hard”/long fractals. Because then you’d know the rest of the run will be a cakewalk. I can imagine that would become the standard modus operandi of a new speedrun.

One thing they could do to reduce re-rolling is what they did in GW1 for Underworld.

Charge Admission.

I think they need to up the rewards right now and there is the problem of having 1 person pay and then get kicked and a substitute brought in but perhaps there is a way around that.

One of the things that made Underworld speed runs so fun was that there was money on the line – the payment for admission, as well as the price of the consumables so when you messed up, it was costly, but when you succeeded, it was a great feeling.

If there was a slight cost to re-roll fractals, that would reduce the amount of re-rolling.

Conclusion: not enough Dredge.

Ouroboros.5076:

This I can’t understand. Every single RPG has RNG-based rewards in dungeons since Dungeons and Dragons. It can not be the problem.

Ah yes, the “it has always been like that, so it cannot be a problem” approach. If it was true, then we’d have unchanging world with no problems at all. We don’t – that should tell you something.

Dreamslayer.7659:

This is what I would like to see in Fractals:

1. Fractal Skin Chest – choose your skin like the Ascended Weapon Chests.

2. More uses for Relics and Pristine Relics:
a. 3:1 trade for other dungeon tokens
c. Fractal Armor or at least Fractal Runes

3. Fractal specific recepies for items that require pristine relic(s) as an ingredient.

5. Retro GW1 skins only available in Fractals.

As long as weapons and armor will never be able to be sold on the TP.
Fractal stuff should only ever be gotten from fractals and no where else.

I dont think having the weapons and possible armor drop all the time though or itll feel less special.. but make the drop rate increased though cos atm.. the RNG rate is rather crazy.

Almost 500 fractals done and only 4 weapons – likely 2 are ones i need on my necro but still.. i bet people have done more an got less :/

Molten Facility was the best dungeon this game has seen yet because it was designed to be challenging without just throwing large packs of mobs at the party. If Fractals mobs were revamped to be similar – smaller mob packs with more varied abilities – then challenge levels could be maintained and built upon while the lesser numbers would reduce the amount of time needed to get through each fractal.

In my opinion, huge packs of respawning mobs that overwhelm the players and the resources they have available, such that they have to constantly use pull and retreat tactics or stealthed suicide runs, are not rewarding (feeling of accomplishment) or fun. A smaller pack of mobs with varied abilities that can be avoided or overcome through skill is rewarding on a personal level and fun.

As a related side note, trash mobs having knock downs in the other dungeons are not very fun either for similar reasons. I feel like the knock downs were added to the mobs in an effort to force the players to slow down and fight them, but the same points as above apply – too many mobs with little variety or skill needed to overcome them, making the fights time wasters that are devoid of fun.

Fun should be one of the main rewards the players get out of running through fractals and dungeons, in order to keep them wanting to come back to repeat them. Loot rewards help too but the need for loot only lasts until the desired items are obtained and then if your dungeons aren’t fun, the players are probably just going to go somewhere else.

Faux.1937:

In 48’s my group that Ive done it with we went a specially way to "fall into the room with 2 buttons’ (Not saying how) had 2 ppl get there thieves and the other 2 ppl ran down died on buttons, the 3rd person suicide too while the thieves stack Shadow Refused on each other (the 1 cast it 1st then press the gears after 10 sec the 2nd one cast his).

It is not at all how you are suppose to do it, if you HAVE TO exploit just to HAVE A CHANCE to win, then it is a poor design on Anets side.

I used to do a full tank build P/T/H and some P/T/V mix with over 3k Toughness and 1k healing power and to still be killed in seconds I just went full zerk now and we do better than when I have a tank, Tank gets 1 shot then what is the point?

You HAVE to exploit to have a chance to win in that fractal? Not remotely true. At all. I’ve done 48 runs using legitimate strategies to win in the dredge fractal and it’s completely doable. It also doesn’t take that long. You don’t need to use AI exploits or terrain exploits to win. You do, however, need to plan your group out a bit. Having a thief is extremely helpful. A mesmer can do wonders too.

My guardian is generally able to tank quite well in the dredge fractal. You can’t stand in place nonstop and there’s still some risk but you can definitely take some pretty heavy hits if you’re traited and geared right. Tanking in this game is intended to be risky and you really need to pay attention to the enemies you’re tanking to be effective.

My guardian uses Giver’s armor (mainly for the toughness and healing power) with 4 altruism runes and 2 water runes to get extra boon duration. Trait-wise, she’s using 0/0/30/30/10. I have about 3400 armor when using a mace and shield and about 3200 when using a staff. I have about 15K and 16K health, respectively. Shelter is probably your best bet when it comes to a healing skill since it gives you a full 2 seconds of blocking all incoming damage.

Having said that, I absolutely agree with those that have said that the reward system needs a major overhaul in fractals. Doing a level 48 run and getting all blues and greens from the Jade Maw chest and getting yet another infused ring that you can’t do anything with is just ridiculous. I have two full bank tabs full of infused rings. I don’t want to sell them to a vendor because it feels like a massive waste. But so is having them collect virtual dust in my bank. At the very least there should be a system that lets us buy unique skins or other items using pristine relics or even regular relics.

I’m not a fanboy or anything but after such a long time someone has came forward and said something about making certain conceptual changes to fotm. Just a side note, I hate the devs of fractals as I been doing 2 or 3 daily tiers since december and still cant get my fractal focus.

If you go back and look at all the previous post about fractals, almost no one replies them. And when I say long time I mean all the way back till last year. Well of course, unless the OP of a certain post are asking stupidly obvious questions.
Atleast this dev came out and said something about their plans.

So just give sometime, although they have taken one year to come back to fractals, lets see what they come up with. FYI all the suggestions and arguments for certain changes has been posted on separate threads a thousand times, so should be aware of it already.

I must admit your quite brave Mr Anthony cos each time a dev discuss the topic, he or she usually ends up in a whirlwind of insults and arguments.

You are doing it wrong sir.

Try kick anyone who is not guardian, warrior, and maybe mesmer, anyone who doesn’t have all ascended trinket and exotic armor/weapon, anyone who has achievement points below 3000, anyone who running on the “wrong build”, anyone who is doing fractal for the first time, anyone who never uses utility skills or uses it wrongly, and anyone who has bad attitude.

Try it again and you will see the difference.

Ping.5739:

You are doing it wrong sir.

Try kick anyone who is not guardian, warrior, and maybe mesmer, anyone who doesn’t have all ascended trinket and exotic armor/weapon, anyone who has achievement points below 3000, anyone who running on the “wrong build”, anyone who is doing fractal for the first time, anyone who never uses utility skills or uses it wrongly, and anyone who has bad attitude.

Try it again and you will see the difference.

There’s absolutely no reason to kick anyone who isn’t a guardian, warrior, or mesmer. I do level 48 fractals on my elementalist without trouble at all in the right groups. My brother always plays as his thief. Some of my friends always go as their necromancer or thief. We still win without much difficulty. The problem is more with the lack of experience of players than anything else.

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

I write The questions I have to you very Kind. Those are questions I already had when I hit scale 80 in 2012.. about 8 months ago.

Questions:

- Why did you not let ppl that played scale 80 and put loads off effort in it still let em Play scale 80? even with a cap of 80 on it ( witch seems to be the cap the way scale above 80 behave) it would have been nice to not exclude us from doing dailies just threw some gear we can’t have

- Why was it so hard to confirm in a Forum that scale 80 is the cap/ ment to be the cap? (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractals-cap-80/page/2#post1899286)

So here is some constructive Feedback:

-Please make Fractals the hard Content you promised us to be.

- You would gain many ppl at least of my friendlist back the quit the game for the sake of not beeing able to go to 80 / not beeing able to complete 80 anymore / get decent rewards for it

I ‘d be happy to hear some Response on those questions sure you could as we’ll answer some other 1000 questions but for me.. I put loads of effort in this particular part of the game. And I really want it to be good… I expected fractals to be so that everyone can find the difficulty that fits for him. But for me and many others 80 wasn’t hard enough .. we we’re imagine how 100 would be with all lvl 85 Mobs ect … we didn’t care about the fact that we put in all our Money because we enjoyed it.

Greetings

Patrikan

P.S: I deserve an answer since I wait for 8 MONTHS!!!!! pease out:)

DOA’s and “balanceway” UW’s used to take a lot of us TWO HOURS to beat.

Not everything has to conform to a L.O.L. match to be viable for a Microtransaction – funded game these days. There’s room for a little Variety.

No… I think the most “Cast into fiery Hell for its sins”-‘ing thing about Fractals is not the design itself, but the nature of its “Progression”. IE: The Agony Resist treadmill. …I can’t even be bothered to seek out groups just to get to level 10 b/c I know all that’s waiting for me after that is a Gear Grind for no other sake than a Gear Grind. It’s literally completing the content just so that your gear and ONLY your gear decides if you will complete the content faster the next time around. …. That is SOOO ANTI-GUILDWARS that I will continue to boycott it as long as it exists.

Guildwars content “speed” itself… to me atleast… has always been about personal skill curve. That very first Main you rolled back in 2005 … could have been using the same exact skills you had him literally rolling through a Hard Mode “The Deep” run on in 2011, but b/c of the very nature of a rich and deep skill-curve …. you were struggling just to get by against level 10 mobs. It was all intrinsic… the power was within you all along and “ascending” could be seen as something much greater than merely the resources you farmed up to that point. Then on each alt you rolled after that, you could feel that momentum of progression, each task or mission went smoother each time you replayed it.

Meanwhile,
the concept of “Infusions” run completely counter to this, and I HATE them for it

I only have two problems with fractals in their current state.

1. The Reward vs. Time is far too low for high level fotm. Fractals 30+ rewards better than just champ farming for an hour would give.

2. Leveling alts in FOTM takes too long. Once you have one guy at 30+ if you ever want to do another, its back to doing one level at a time, forever, until you get them to a decent level.

I’d like to see a system where you gain more than one level, for completing fractals that are X levels above your PR.

Example, Have a PR of 1 and complete FOTM Level 20, you should gain a few levels, not one.

Zedd.8239:

Faux.1937:

In 48’s my group that Ive done it with we went a specially way to "fall into the room with 2 buttons’ (Not saying how) had 2 ppl get there thieves and the other 2 ppl ran down died on buttons, the 3rd person suicide too while the thieves stack Shadow Refused on each other (the 1 cast it 1st then press the gears after 10 sec the 2nd one cast his).

It is not at all how you are suppose to do it, if you HAVE TO exploit just to HAVE A CHANCE to win, then it is a poor design on Anets side.

I used to do a full tank build P/T/H and some P/T/V mix with over 3k Toughness and 1k healing power and to still be killed in seconds I just went full zerk now and we do better than when I have a tank, Tank gets 1 shot then what is the point?

You HAVE to exploit to have a chance to win in that fractal? Not remotely true. At all. I’ve done 48 runs using legitimate strategies to win in the dredge fractal and it’s completely doable. It also doesn’t take that long. You don’t need to use AI exploits or terrain exploits to win. You do, however, need to plan your group out a bit. Having a thief is extremely helpful. A mesmer can do wonders too.

My guardian is generally able to tank quite well in the dredge fractal. You can’t stand in place nonstop and there’s still some risk but you can definitely take some pretty heavy hits if you’re traited and geared right. Tanking in this game is intended to be risky and you really need to pay attention to the enemies you’re tanking to be effective.

My guardian uses Giver’s armor (mainly for the toughness and healing power) with 4 altruism runes and 2 water runes to get extra boon duration. Trait-wise, she’s using 0/0/30/30/10. I have about 3400 armor when using a mace and shield and about 3200 when using a staff. I have about 15K and 16K health, respectively. Shelter is probably your best bet when it comes to a healing skill since it gives you a full 2 seconds of blocking all incoming damage.

Having said that, I absolutely agree with those that have said that the reward system needs a major overhaul in fractals. Doing a level 48 run and getting all blues and greens from the Jade Maw chest and getting yet another infused ring that you can’t do anything with is just ridiculous. I have two full bank tabs full of infused rings. I don’t want to sell them to a vendor because it feels like a massive waste. But so is having them collect virtual dust in my bank. At the very least there should be a system that lets us buy unique skins or other items using pristine relics or even regular relics.

You cant just walk in the 1st area with 2 panels on the floor and tank, you have to let players die on the buttons, Im never seen a person live long enough to walk out from the panels (3k+ toughness High vit and healing with protection utilities and shield still isnt enough).

We dont have to Jump down, we can do all up to the 2 panels fine, and I dont think having the chance to wipe 3-4 times at the bombs is idea either, again in a 48 Ive never seen a group (with thief and mesmer, multi guards and war) be able to get everyone back and have the door open without dying, its not possible.

Dying over and over again just to win is an exploit, dying and staying dead on a button is an exploit.

Having to make player change to other classes to pass (again without dying or a character dying either on purpose or just so you can get pass) is an exploit. We shouldn’t be allowed to change classes in the middle of a Dungeon IMO.

Faux.1937:

Zedd.8239:

Faux.1937:

In 48’s my group that Ive done it with we went a specially way to "fall into the room with 2 buttons’ (Not saying how) had 2 ppl get there thieves and the other 2 ppl ran down died on buttons, the 3rd person suicide too while the thieves stack Shadow Refused on each other (the 1 cast it 1st then press the gears after 10 sec the 2nd one cast his).

It is not at all how you are suppose to do it, if you HAVE TO exploit just to HAVE A CHANCE to win, then it is a poor design on Anets side.

I used to do a full tank build P/T/H and some P/T/V mix with over 3k Toughness and 1k healing power and to still be killed in seconds I just went full zerk now and we do better than when I have a tank, Tank gets 1 shot then what is the point?

You HAVE to exploit to have a chance to win in that fractal? Not remotely true. At all. I’ve done 48 runs using legitimate strategies to win in the dredge fractal and it’s completely doable. It also doesn’t take that long. You don’t need to use AI exploits or terrain exploits to win. You do, however, need to plan your group out a bit. Having a thief is extremely helpful. A mesmer can do wonders too.

My guardian is generally able to tank quite well in the dredge fractal. You can’t stand in place nonstop and there’s still some risk but you can definitely take some pretty heavy hits if you’re traited and geared right. Tanking in this game is intended to be risky and you really need to pay attention to the enemies you’re tanking to be effective.

My guardian uses Giver’s armor (mainly for the toughness and healing power) with 4 altruism runes and 2 water runes to get extra boon duration. Trait-wise, she’s using 0/0/30/30/10. I have about 3400 armor when using a mace and shield and about 3200 when using a staff. I have about 15K and 16K health, respectively. Shelter is probably your best bet when it comes to a healing skill since it gives you a full 2 seconds of blocking all incoming damage.

Having said that, I absolutely agree with those that have said that the reward system needs a major overhaul in fractals. Doing a level 48 run and getting all blues and greens from the Jade Maw chest and getting yet another infused ring that you can’t do anything with is just ridiculous. I have two full bank tabs full of infused rings. I don’t want to sell them to a vendor because it feels like a massive waste. But so is having them collect virtual dust in my bank. At the very least there should be a system that lets us buy unique skins or other items using pristine relics or even regular relics.

You cant just walk in the 1st area with 2 panels on the floor and tank, you have to let players die on the buttons, Im never seen a person live long enough to walk out from the panels (3k+ toughness High vit and healing with protection utilities and shield still isnt enough).

We dont have to Jump down, we can do all up to the 2 panels fine, and I dont think having the chance to wipe 3-4 times at the bombs is idea either, again in a 48 Ive never seen a group (with thief and mesmer, multi guards and war) be able to get everyone back and have the door open without dying, its not possible.

Dying over and over again just to win is an exploit, dying and staying dead on a button is an exploit.

Having to make player change to other classes to pass (again without dying or a character dying either on purpose or just so you can get pass) is an exploit. We shouldn’t be allowed to change classes in the middle of a Dungeon IMO.

Those things are so not true I bet you all Gold you have that I can do any fractal scale 80 with any class. I’d Video it if you have enough Gold to make up for my time

Faux.1937:

You cant just walk in the 1st area with 2 panels on the floor and tank, you have to let players die on the buttons, Im never seen a person live long enough to walk out from the panels (3k+ toughness High vit and healing with protection utilities and shield still isnt enough).

We dont have to Jump down, we can do all up to the 2 panels fine, and I dont think having the chance to wipe 3-4 times at the bombs is idea either, again in a 48 Ive never seen a group (with thief and mesmer, multi guards and war) be able to get everyone back and have the door open without dying, its not possible.

Dying over and over again just to win is an exploit, dying and staying dead on a button is an exploit.

Having to make player change to other classes to pass (again without dying or a character dying either on purpose or just so you can get pass) is an exploit. We shouldn’t be allowed to change classes in the middle of a Dungeon IMO.

Staying dead on a button is an exploit? Using terrain and AI glitches to win are exploits. Staying dead on a button isn’t an exploit. You’re using game physics to accomplish a task. You aren’t jumping through walls or using portals to get through objects or using other such tricks to bypass the design of the level. You’re pressing the buttons while the other party members work to get past the other dredge.

I didn’t say you didn’t have to die during that part. You pretty much have to die during that part in high level fractals. What I did say was that it can be beaten legitimately (i.e., not using portal tricks and terrain glitches or other similar bugs to your advantage). You made it sound like exploiting was the only possible way to beat that section. That isn’t true. What you described was indeed a terrain exploit. I said that exploit isn’t needed to beat it. In my experience, it’s often easier to just open the gates the way they’re intended to be opened as it’s usually faster than trying to get people over the walls.

I think you have a fairly large misunderstanding of what constitutes an exploit…

AnthonyOrdon.3926:

We’re currently looking at a few things regarding individual fractal difficulty and length. A couple of options are reducing the length of unnecessarily long fractals (dredge) and modifying the possible sequence of randomly selected fractals so you don’t get the longest and most difficult ones all on the same run.

YAY!!! when will these changes happen? hopefully before 2016… I don’t want to put any pressure on our non existent dungeon team…

Zedd.8239:

Faux.1937:

You cant just walk in the 1st area with 2 panels on the floor and tank, you have to let players die on the buttons, Im never seen a person live long enough to walk out from the panels (3k+ toughness High vit and healing with protection utilities and shield still isnt enough).

We dont have to Jump down, we can do all up to the 2 panels fine, and I dont think having the chance to wipe 3-4 times at the bombs is idea either, again in a 48 Ive never seen a group (with thief and mesmer, multi guards and war) be able to get everyone back and have the door open without dying, its not possible.

Dying over and over again just to win is an exploit, dying and staying dead on a button is an exploit.

Having to make player change to other classes to pass (again without dying or a character dying either on purpose or just so you can get pass) is an exploit. We shouldn’t be allowed to change classes in the middle of a Dungeon IMO.

Staying dead on a button is an exploit? Using terrain and AI glitches to win are exploits. Staying dead on a button isn’t an exploit. You’re using game physics to accomplish a task. You aren’t jumping through walls or using portals to get through objects or using other such tricks to bypass the design of the level. You’re pressing the buttons while the other party members work to get past the other dredge.

I didn’t say you didn’t have to die during that part. You pretty much have to die during that part in high level fractals. What I did say was that it can be beaten legitimately (i.e., not using portal tricks and terrain glitches or other similar bugs to your advantage). You made it sound like exploiting was the only possible way to beat that section. That isn’t true. What you described was indeed a terrain exploit. I said that exploit isn’t needed to beat it. In my experience, it’s often easier to just open the gates the way they’re intended to be opened as it’s usually faster than trying to get people over the walls.

I think you have a fairly large misunderstanding of what constitutes an exploit…

Do you know what an exploit even is? Your taking advantage of a mechanic that should not be used, the game wasnt made to use a dead body as a way to help you get pass a section.

Im saying no matter what you do lots of members of your party will die or wipe unless you have certain classes, and changed to those classes shouldnt be the only way.