Guild Wars 2

You, sir, I’ve grown quite fond of!!. Preach on, my friend!!! LOL

Yeah they really handled this situation about as bad as they could have, which is why they are getting this negative response to it.

Handle something in a poor unprofessional manner and expect the same in return, this is just common sense. Anet brought this negative response totally upon themselves.

I blame a lot of it on a few poor employees that frequent the forums. There are a few good guys at Anet.

OP references Cancer Man, I sprint through the internets to Netflix. Great post too, looking forward to see how future issues are handled concerning the community.

Well said OP! +1

puffintoast.6501:

After everything that has been thrown into this topic by so many people, I think you owe us a little more than this, Colin.

What’s a good form of recompense, I wonder…. hmmm…

This post/topic starter gets a massive +1 from me, and probably one of the best +1 candidates this forum has seen. Well done.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

puffintoast.6501:

After everything that has been thrown into this topic by so many people, I think you owe us a little more than this, Colin.

What’s a good form of recompense, I wonder…. hmmm…

This post/topic starter gets a massive +1 from me, and probably one of the best +1 candidates this forum has seen. Well done.

A ban for trolling? A suspense for being entitled? Plenty of good responses I could think of.

That’s a nice little recounting of what happened but you left out a few points:

- Anet acknowledged the possibility of a problem.
- Anet felt the existing thread was insufficient and wanted more data. This doesn’t mean they ignored the thread they closed, more is well… more not the the same stuff they have.
- They created a stickied thread with an Anet post to start it to make it more apparent, official, and hopefully get noticed easier.
- After declaring it an “X-files level conspiracy” they kept working on it. Seriously, think about that for a moment. The problem they found didn’t jump up and slap them in the face after they gave up. No, they kept looking in to the problem.
- Once they found a problem (may or may not be ’the problem) they were big enough people to admit it publicly. Again, think about this. They created another sticky post to say “Hey, we were wrong. There is a problem. Sorry about that.”

Just the fact they made a post to say “We were wrong” is more than you ever get from most companies. Heck it is more than you get from most people.

Sorry but if you’re going to talk about what happened you have to give credit were it’s due and Anet IS due some credit here. Sure they aren’t perfect but the way you tell it it’s like they covered their ears screaming “LALALALALA” until the code jumped out and slapped them forcing them to fix it. Which is obviously impossible and it’s disrespectful to the hard working people at Anet to ignore the time they put in to checking and double checking loot tables and lines of code to hunt down what amounts to a bug.

Rifter.6591:

Yeah they really handled this situation about as bad as they could have, which is why they are getting this negative response to it.

Handle something in a poor unprofessional manner and expect the same in return, this is just common sense. Anet brought this negative response totally upon themselves.

Well they could have done worse, they could have simply kept bringing out the old phrase “working as intended” while fixing it, then dropped a fix quietly into a patch with no notes and no sign anything was changed while going “see, we told you it worked properly” when someone comments on a change.

I would call it the Verant method of problem resolution.

Honestly, I think at this point every MMO developer has seen the common “my drops are bugged” “stealth nerf to drops this patch” nonsense so much in other threads, it became “The Players That Cried Nerf” and it became a defense mechanism for their sanity to just go:

“Not this again.”

Is it wrong? Yeah, of course it’s wrong, what did you expect me to say? It’s a mistaken attitude born of complacency and too much familiarity with players of MMOs. About the best way to handle it once you find out something is wrong is to fix it, own up it was broken, and move on. Apologize if you aren’t completely fed up with the grief, otherwise just let it go because otherwise people will be using it as a club to beat you over the head with for the rest of your game’s lifespan.

And I fully anticipate that myself. Any time someone puts up something else and a representative says “I’m not seeing it…” someone is going to drag this tired old event out and go “yeah, you said that before, you clearly don’t know what you’re doing”.

Unspecified.9142:

That’s a nice little recounting of what happened but you left out a few points:

- Anet acknowledged the possibility of a problem.
- Anet felt the existing thread was insufficient and wanted more data. This doesn’t mean they ignored the thread they closed, more is well… more not the the same stuff they have.
- They created a stickied thread with an Anet post to start it to make it more apparent, official, and hopefully get noticed easier.
- After declaring it an “X-files level conspiracy” they kept working on it. Seriously, think about that for a moment. The problem they found didn’t jump up and slap them in the face after they gave up. No, they kept looking in to the problem.
- Once they found a problem (may or may not be ’the problem) they were big enough people to admit it publicly. Again, think about this. They created another sticky post to say “Hey, we were wrong. There is a problem. Sorry about that.”

This is indeed what I wanted to say. You are stating the facts, not the x-files. Facts trump rumours any day of the year.

Just the fact they made a post to say “We were wrong” is more than you ever get from most companies. Heck it is more than you get from most people.

I was 16 when I first managed to say “I was wrong, I’m sorry”. It took me considerable effort but afterwards learned that it was the best long term solution to problems. It’s the mature thing to do. Just proves A.net is mature about their business and have a long term perspective.

Sorry but if you’re going to talk about what happened you have to give credit were it’s due and Anet IS due some credit here. Sure they aren’t perfect but the way you tell it it’s like they covered their ears screaming “LALALALALA” until the code jumped out and slapped them forcing them to fix it. Which is obviously impossible and it’s disrespectful to the hard working people at Anet to ignore the time they put in to checking and double checking loot tables and lines of code to hunt down what amounts to a bug.

I know a few companies that do exactly this. I’m not going into name calling but all console builders have had their fair share of cover-ups regarding bad designs. For one it was on the hardware side, another f’d up the online part big time and the third one managed to use stupidly expensive hardware. Neither formally apologized.

marnick.4305:

Extremely complex loot issue gets finally resolved. Player is still not thankful but goes even deeper into the conspiracy nonsense. Entitlement much?

At least a.net fixes these things. Complex issues take time. Really … what a stupid thread this is.

I can’t believe you went there… you obviously don’t know what they’re capable of. Tell me, have you actually seen something fixed in this game, without breaking something else (sometimes completely unlrelated) in the process? This is Anet’s infamy. Most times they’ll overlook game mechanics that desperately need fixing as well, only to release sparkly lemon-fresh new content.

Also it’s far from conspiracy, but you obviously side with and take the word of Señor Johanson, blithely overlooking the facts. Trust me it’s not resolved yet.

See what happens when the update is implemented – then engage brain and put mouth into gear.

marnick.4305:

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

puffintoast.6501:

After everything that has been thrown into this topic by so many people, I think you owe us a little more than this, Colin.

What’s a good form of recompense, I wonder…. hmmm…

This post/topic starter gets a massive +1 from me, and probably one of the best +1 candidates this forum has seen. Well done.

A ban for trolling? A suspense for being entitled? Plenty of good responses I could think of.

Not too shabby, Marnick – two posts, two appearances of the tiresomely popular ‘entitlement’ dribble. Oh how much IGN has to answer for, birthing that monstrously idiotic catch-phrase.
I did love the ‘suspense for being entitled’, though. Quite the best oddly-relevant typo I’ve seen for a while.
I laughed until I stopped.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Yeah they really handled this situation about as bad as they could have, which is why they are getting this negative response to it.

Handle something in a poor unprofessional manner and expect the same in return, this is just common sense. Anet brought this negative response totally upon themselves.

Well they could have done worse, they could have simply kept bringing out the old phrase “working as intended” while fixing it, then dropped a fix quietly into a patch with no notes and no sign anything was changed while going “see, we told you it worked properly” when someone comments on a change.

I would call it the Verant method of problem resolution.

Honestly, I think at this point every MMO developer has seen the common “my drops are bugged” “stealth nerf to drops this patch” nonsense so much in other threads, it became “The Players That Cried Nerf” and it became a defense mechanism for their sanity to just go:

“Not this again.”

Is it wrong? Yeah, of course it’s wrong, what did you expect me to say? It’s a mistaken attitude born of complacency and too much familiarity with players of MMOs. About the best way to handle it once you find out something is wrong is to fix it, own up it was broken, and move on. Apologize if you aren’t completely fed up with the grief, otherwise just let it go because otherwise people will be using it as a club to beat you over the head with for the rest of your game’s lifespan.

And I fully anticipate that myself. Any time someone puts up something else and a representative says “I’m not seeing it…” someone is going to drag this tired old event out and go “yeah, you said that before, you clearly don’t know what you’re doing”.

Personally i didnt see an issue untill the x-files conspiracy comment, thets when it went from being handled professionally to being handled like a grade school name calling match.

If they would have left out insults and just done their job quietly and found and fixed the issue i think they would be getting a much better response from the playerbase. Like i said above what did they expect the response to be to this after they called the playerbase a bunch of x-files conspiracy theorists, its obviously not going to be a good response at that point once the insults are flying, its going to be even worse because we are right and they are wrong.

Rifter.6591:

Personally i didnt see an issue untill the x-files conspiracy comment, thets when it went from being handled professionally to being handled like a grade school name calling match.

If they would have left out insults and just done their job quietly and found and fixed the issue i think they would be getting a much better response from the playerbase. Like i said above what did they expect the response to be to this after they called the playerbase a bunch of x-files conspiracy theorists, its obviously not going to be a good response at that point once the insults are flying, its going to be even worse because we are right and they are wrong.

I took it as a lighter comment with a twist of sarcasm, which was born of someone tired of fielding the same comments over and over. Again, yes unprofessional, but seeing the tone of some posts which get snuffed here on the forums? NOT undeserved for some posters.

Unspecified.9142:

That’s a nice little recounting of what happened but you left out a few points:

- Anet acknowledged the possibility of a problem.
- Anet felt the existing thread was insufficient and wanted more data. This doesn’t mean they ignored the thread they closed, more is well… more not the the same stuff they have.
- They created a stickied thread with an Anet post to start it to make it more apparent, official, and hopefully get noticed easier.
- After declaring it an “X-files level conspiracy” they kept working on it. Seriously, think about that for a moment. The problem they found didn’t jump up and slap them in the face after they gave up. No, they kept looking in to the problem.
- Once they found a problem (may or may not be ’the problem) they were big enough people to admit it publicly. Again, think about this. They created another sticky post to say “Hey, we were wrong. There is a problem. Sorry about that.”

Just the fact they made a post to say “We were wrong” is more than you ever get from most companies. Heck it is more than you get from most people.

Sorry but if you’re going to talk about what happened you have to give credit were it’s due and Anet IS due some credit here. Sure they aren’t perfect but the way you tell it it’s like they covered their ears screaming “LALALALALA” until the code jumped out and slapped them forcing them to fix it. Which is obviously impossible and it’s disrespectful to the hard working people at Anet to ignore the time they put in to checking and double checking loot tables and lines of code to hunt down what amounts to a bug.

- An acknowledgment of an issue is not the same thing as declaring in the very title of their thread that it is a “perceived” issue to some. Quite a large difference there.
- They closed the existing thread, with all it’s pertinent information and reports, and reopened it as vaguely directed call for more information on an issue they did not directly admit even existed, without providing any concrete, methodical means or tools for people to utilise to steer the ‘investigation’ in any meaningful direction.
- Simply declaring it an ‘X-Files’ level conspiracy, with all the inherent derisive intent that implies, was enough to clearly outline the seriousness with which they were undertaking their endeavours.
And finally, you stated that they created another sticky post to say “Hey, we were wrong. There is a problem. Sorry about that.”
It is the clear lack of an apology that is the issue here, and it is fast becoming the hallmark of any red post.
After such a protracted and heated topic is brought to any form of conclusion by them, it is the very least they could do.
All this rallying of defense around the developers, to the resounding mantra of “entitled whiner”, serves one purpose only, and that is to further derail the issue from it’s origins, which are sadly now sinking to the bottom of the forum pits.
You have to hand it to the Nexon insertion, and their ability to manipulate the blockheads. They really do know their stuff.

puffintoast.6501:

marnick.4305:

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

puffintoast.6501:

After everything that has been thrown into this topic by so many people, I think you owe us a little more than this, Colin.

What’s a good form of recompense, I wonder…. hmmm…

This post/topic starter gets a massive +1 from me, and probably one of the best +1 candidates this forum has seen. Well done.

A ban for trolling? A suspense for being entitled? Plenty of good responses I could think of.

Not too shabby, Marnick – two posts, two appearances of the tiresomely popular ‘entitlement’ dribble. Oh how much IGN has to answer for, birthing that monstrously idiotic catch-phrase.
I did love the ‘suspense for being entitled’, though. Quite the best oddly-relevant typo I’ve seen for a while.
I laughed until I stopped.

One should always call things by their name. If a thread is full of entitlement, one shouldn’t be ashamed of calling it exactly what it is. If you want to make that my third entitlement quote in this thread, so be it. Doesn’t make the OP any less entitled.

puffintoast.6501:

- An acknowledgment of an issue is not the same thing as declaring in the very title of their thread that it is a “perceived” issue to some. Quite a large difference there.
- They closed the existing thread, with all it’s pertinent information and reports, and reopened it as vaguely directed call for more information on an issue they did not directly admit even existed, without providing any concrete, methodical means or tools for people to utilise to steer the ‘investigation’ in any meaningful direction.
- Simply declaring it an ‘X-Files’ level conspiracy, with all the inherent derisive intent that implies, was enough to clearly outline the seriousness with which they were undertaking their endeavours.
And finally, you stated that they created another sticky post to say “Hey, we were wrong. There is a problem. Sorry about that.”
It is the clear lack of an apology that is the issue here, and it is fast becoming the hallmark of any red post.
After such a protracted and heated topic is brought to any form of conclusion by them, it is the very least they could do.
All this rallying of defense around the developers, to the resounding mantra of “entitled whiner”, serves one purpose only, and that is to further derail the issue from it’s origins, which are sadly now sinking to the bottom of the forum pits.
You have to hand it to the Nexon insertion, and their ability to manipulate the blockheads. They really do know their stuff.

You have a right to your opinion. I have a right to call it wrong. Not only that but the post you quoted proved you were wrong factually so your opinion simply doesn’t hold any weight anymore. A.net did the right thing here. If you want to stick it to Nexon, that’s conspiracy level again but I can’t support that stupid allegation.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

marnick.4305:

Extremely complex loot issue gets finally resolved. Player is still not thankful but goes even deeper into the conspiracy nonsense. Entitlement much?

At least a.net fixes these things. Complex issues take time. Really … what a stupid thread this is.

I can’t believe you went there… you obviously don’t know what they’re capable of. Tell me, have you actually seen something fixed in this game, without breaking something else (sometimes completely unlrelated) in the process? This is Anet’s infamy. Most times they’ll overlook game mechanics that desperately need fixing as well, only to release sparkly lemon-fresh new content.

If those issues only affect a small minority, I would delay those issues too in favor of fixing things that affect the majority of people playing the game. It’s called priorities. Doesn’t mean no one works on the minor issues you perceive as important.

Also it’s far from conspiracy, but you obviously side with and take the word of Señor Johanson, blithely overlooking the facts. Trust me it’s not resolved yet.

See what happens when the update is implemented – then engage brain and put mouth into gear.

I’ll take you up to that challenge but I expect you to do exactly the same.

I don’t know how is “drop rates issue” – the backbone of in-game economy of any MMO is an issue of a small minority?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Personally i didnt see an issue untill the x-files conspiracy comment, thets when it went from being handled professionally to being handled like a grade school name calling match.

If they would have left out insults and just done their job quietly and found and fixed the issue i think they would be getting a much better response from the playerbase. Like i said above what did they expect the response to be to this after they called the playerbase a bunch of x-files conspiracy theorists, its obviously not going to be a good response at that point once the insults are flying, its going to be even worse because we are right and they are wrong.

I took it as a lighter comment with a twist of sarcasm, which was born of someone tired of fielding the same comments over and over. Again, yes unprofessional, but seeing the tone of some posts which get snuffed here on the forums? NOT undeserved for some posters.

Thats just part of the job though, ANY internet game forum that has ever exsisted in the history of this planet has people who cry/insult the devs and are never happy no matter what. These people will always exsist and come with the territory so to speak there is nothing anyone can do about that.

The second you sink to their level you have lost the fight tough, as devs they need to NOT sink to their level and always act in a professional matter no matter how hard that might be.

From a human standpoint i totally understand getting upset/aggrivated over the comments they see on a daily basis, however that doesnt change the fact that its thier job to act as professionals. There are many people who work customer service that get kitten on every day by people and im sure would like nothing more than to tell them to kitten off and die but most dont, most handle themselves as professionals and keep doing their jobs. Just imagine how much crap the IRS first level phone reps must take on a daily basis, or even cops yet they manage to bite the bullet and do their jobs. If anet doesnt have people on staff that can handle the heat they need to spend some time to find some that can.

Just want to point out, they didn’t just keep working on it after nothing jumped up, theyr post clearly sais they went back to check it again because the community wouldn’t let it go.

That is completly diffrent from them continuing to look for it after saying it was fine.

If this teaches us anything, Its to not let them shut us up if we see something that is clearly off, and don’t let the fanboy part of the community censor us, trough insults or other means.

Sounds like standard Anet policy when dealing with players to me. Be as demeaning as possible, avoid admitting fault and act like everyone loves you and your ideas for it.

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

marnick.4305:

Extremely complex loot issue gets finally resolved. Player is still not thankful but goes even deeper into the conspiracy nonsense. Entitlement much?

At least a.net fixes these things. Complex issues take time. Really … what a stupid thread this is.

I can’t believe you went there… you obviously don’t know what they’re capable of. Tell me, have you actually seen something fixed in this game, without breaking something else (sometimes completely unlrelated) in the process? This is Anet’s infamy. Most times they’ll overlook game mechanics that desperately need fixing as well, only to release sparkly lemon-fresh new content.

Also it’s far from conspiracy, but you obviously side with and take the word of Señor Johanson, blithely overlooking the facts. Trust me it’s not resolved yet.

See what happens when the update is implemented – then engage brain and put mouth into gear.

Well in fairness pretty much every MMO from the start of time has fallen on this sword… updates and patches are tricksie things. Even the most stringent MMO QA teams have seen code behave differently live than what it did during testing and cascading bugs are probably the word kinda thing to get sorted out.

Its still relatively young so I will give it the benefit of the doubt for now, though yes I agree a continuing descent of update quality will begin to raise questions I am sure….. time will tell.

Sensitive much? Perceived was the right word to use. If you don’t know there IS a problem, you can’t acknowledge it AS a problem, and therefore, it’s a perceived problem until they know more.

They can’t call it a problem because people (I know this is hard for you to believe), sometimes lie on the internet. Or exaagerate. So until they have hard date, it’s a perceived problem. That’s the right thing to call it. I don’t acknowedge things my kids say as problems until I know they’re problems, because half the time they’re not.

Have you ever seen this community over-react to anything that wasn’t a problem (gem store coughs). There were pages and pages of people talking about P2W and all sorts of stuff. For days. Weeks even. And it all went away and that was that.

Anet has no reason to believe a bunch of people saying stuff until it’s backed up by actual data. People should stop being so sensitive.

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Personally i didnt see an issue untill the x-files conspiracy comment, thets when it went from being handled professionally to being handled like a grade school name calling match.

If they would have left out insults and just done their job quietly and found and fixed the issue i think they would be getting a much better response from the playerbase. Like i said above what did they expect the response to be to this after they called the playerbase a bunch of x-files conspiracy theorists, its obviously not going to be a good response at that point once the insults are flying, its going to be even worse because we are right and they are wrong.

I took it as a lighter comment with a twist of sarcasm, which was born of someone tired of fielding the same comments over and over. Again, yes unprofessional, but seeing the tone of some posts which get snuffed here on the forums? NOT undeserved for some posters.

Thats just part of the job though, ANY internet game forum that has ever exsisted in the history of this planet has people who cry/insult the devs and are never happy no matter what. These people will always exsist and come with the territory so to speak there is nothing anyone can do about that.

The second you sink to their level you have lost the fight tough, as devs they need to NOT sink to their level and always act in a professional matter no matter how hard that might be.

From a human standpoint i totally understand getting upset/aggrivated over the comments they see on a daily basis, however that doesnt change the fact that its thier job to act as professionals. There are many people who work customer service that get kitten on every day by people and im sure would like nothing more than to tell them to kitten off and die but most dont, most handle themselves as professionals and keep doing their jobs. Just imagine how much crap the IRS first level phone reps must take on a daily basis, or even cops yet they manage to bite the bullet and do their jobs. If anet doesnt have people on staff that can handle the heat they need to spend some time to find some that can.

The ones who can aren’t going to take that job. Nobody sane would want to handle things like this day in, day out . . .

You couldn’t pay someone enough to put up with this forum’s off days . . . let alone when it’s at its worst.

Again, I’m agreeing it was unprofessional for the “X-Files conspiracy” comment to slip by someone’s mental filter. And I also think that if anything comes of this? It’ll be just another weapon people who want to beat up on the game will drag out any time the company says “we didn’t/don’t see a problem, but we’ll look into it”.

I’ll chalk this up under the tally of “reasons no company should make an MMO”.

Vayne.8563:

Sensitive much? Perceived was the right word to use. If you don’t know there IS a problem, you can’t acknowledge it AS a problem, and therefore, it’s a perceived problem until they know more.

They can’t call it a problem because people (I know this is hard for you to believe), sometimes lie on the internet. Or exaagerate. So until they have hard date, it’s a perceived problem. That’s the right thing to call it. I don’t acknowedge things my kids say as problems until I know they’re problems, because half the time they’re not.

Have you ever seen this community over-react to anything that wasn’t a problem (gem store coughs). There were pages and pages of people talking about P2W and all sorts of stuff. For days. Weeks even. And it all went away and that was that.

Anet has no reason to believe a bunch of people saying stuff until it’s backed up by actual data. People should stop being so sensitive.

Actual data was provided at every step along this issue by many players, and was ignored untill months later. As stated above a few posts up they clearly state they looked BACK into this, they wernt looking into it the whole time they had given up after their first obviously lacking look into this matter, i mean after all they thought we were all tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists why take us seriously.

Also if they really wanted data why did not allow log files to be recorded, or any other method of data collection? They have the means to do this it was a option during beta code is already written for data logging. The truth is they did nothing to aid us in submitting data because they didnt believe us, thats not going to help their credability any because we are right and have been the whole time.

marnick.4305:

Extremely complex loot issue gets finally resolved. Player is still not thankful but goes even deeper into the conspiracy nonsense. Entitlement much?

At least a.net fixes these things. Complex issues take time. Really … what a stupid thread this is.

Let’s just way and see, eh? We still have no idea if it will get fixed. Yeah they’ve said they have found the problem, or so we hope, but that doesn’t mean anything yet. Fact is, they handled this in the worse possible way so we have the right to be kitten of about it.

I for one feel that those of us who stood up against this issue and got bashed for it should get a ingame tinfoil hat skin, to protect us from future bashing when speaking up

Rifter.6591:

Vayne.8563:

Sensitive much? Perceived was the right word to use. If you don’t know there IS a problem, you can’t acknowledge it AS a problem, and therefore, it’s a perceived problem until they know more.

They can’t call it a problem because people (I know this is hard for you to believe), sometimes lie on the internet. Or exaagerate. So until they have hard date, it’s a perceived problem. That’s the right thing to call it. I don’t acknowedge things my kids say as problems until I know they’re problems, because half the time they’re not.

Have you ever seen this community over-react to anything that wasn’t a problem (gem store coughs). There were pages and pages of people talking about P2W and all sorts of stuff. For days. Weeks even. And it all went away and that was that.

Anet has no reason to believe a bunch of people saying stuff until it’s backed up by actual data. People should stop being so sensitive.

Actual data was provided at every step along this issue by many players, and was ignored untill months later. As stated above a few posts up they clearly state they looked BACK into this, they wernt looking into it the whole time they had given up after their first obviously lacking look into this matter, i mean after all they thought we were all tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists why take us seriously.

Also if they really wanted data why did not allow log files to be recorded, or any other method of data collection? They have the means to do this it was a option during beta code is already written for data logging. The truth is they did nothing to aid us in submitting data because they didnt believe us, thats not going to help their credability any because we are right and have been the whole time.

For every time the community is right about something, there’s another time that they’ve been wrong about something. It happens all the time. Instead of people picking on a single word, perceived, and making it an insult, they should just take it for what the word means.

It’s like when someone’s charged with a crime, it’s always an alleged crime. It doesn’t mean the guy didn’t do the crime, it means it hasn’t been proven.

I still maintain people are too sensitive about the word itself. Because that’s what most people picked up on.

Even a broken watch is correct twice a day.

I see nothing wrong with the way Anet handled it. Then again, I had no problem with the word “perceived” either. The code said there was no problem, a small number of players said there was. I’m assuming most here have never taken a car that feels off to a mechanic, and the mechanic say with absolute assurance that the car is fine, only to find on the fourth or fifth visit something wrong. Not a bad mechanic, just not perfect.

What do the players here want to see? Arena-net say you were right, and we were wrong. I remember demanding that a lot when I was six.

And just to note, the Conspiracy people are not necessarily right in this situation. The fix on the 26th may only fix the loot from Champions and Veterans, and do nothing for the average mob. In this case, Nothing has changed. Loot will still suck.

So before everyone starts giving high fives and demanding compensation, lets wait for the 26th and see what actually happens, and if you are correct, proceed with the parade.

Vayne.8563:

For every time the community is right about something, there’s another time that they’ve been wrong about something. It happens all the time. Instead of people picking on a single word, perceived, and making it an insult, they should just take it for what the word means.

It’s like when someone’s charged with a crime, it’s always an alleged crime. It doesn’t mean the guy didn’t do the crime, it means it hasn’t been proven.

I still maintain people are too sensitive about the word itself. Because that’s what most people picked up on.

“Alleged crime” is also used in the cases where the party is in fact guilty. Of course, in an American legal system we have “innocent until proven guilty” but that’s not . . . necessarily the case elsewhere. It’s entirely possible the person didn’t do it, or did do it, or evidence is not understood . . . analogies are really bad for this sort of thing.

Though really what they’ve picked on is more “X-Files conspiracy” which honestly, I’ve seen loot complaints which do approach that. I’ll share one:

Nexon shareholders have pressured NCSoft to make ArenaNet get more money out of the Gem Store so they were ordered from On High to alter drop rates so people spend money on gems to convert to gold, and then alter the exchange rate so you would always be getting less and less gold for the same amount of gems, meaning you buy more gems to get gold you can’t get due to the loot system now being broken. All at the behest of the Nexon Overlords.

In this case, the loot system was broken. Conspiracy though? Meh, if it is, I’d like to see someone prove it.

Wow, took the words…

I was seriously about to just stop playing due to the abhorent way in which this has all been handled, but i love the game so much in spite of itself. The arrogance that has been displayed by ANET during this fiasco has been a total negative turnoff by one of the few gaming companies i admired.

I do think a public apology is in order here, post haste sirs! Also, a return to good old listening to your players as they know what’s best for gaming, as we are gaming! We’re gamers, it’s what we do! You may be developers and bring this fine product all together but we know something you don’t… what works and what does not! So cut the arrogance and get back to putting out a bug-free and exciting game world.

/tinfoil ON

Vayne.8563:

Rifter.6591:

Vayne.8563:

Sensitive much? Perceived was the right word to use. If you don’t know there IS a problem, you can’t acknowledge it AS a problem, and therefore, it’s a perceived problem until they know more.

They can’t call it a problem because people (I know this is hard for you to believe), sometimes lie on the internet. Or exaagerate. So until they have hard date, it’s a perceived problem. That’s the right thing to call it. I don’t acknowedge things my kids say as problems until I know they’re problems, because half the time they’re not.

Have you ever seen this community over-react to anything that wasn’t a problem (gem store coughs). There were pages and pages of people talking about P2W and all sorts of stuff. For days. Weeks even. And it all went away and that was that.

Anet has no reason to believe a bunch of people saying stuff until it’s backed up by actual data. People should stop being so sensitive.

Actual data was provided at every step along this issue by many players, and was ignored untill months later. As stated above a few posts up they clearly state they looked BACK into this, they wernt looking into it the whole time they had given up after their first obviously lacking look into this matter, i mean after all they thought we were all tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists why take us seriously.

Also if they really wanted data why did not allow log files to be recorded, or any other method of data collection? They have the means to do this it was a option during beta code is already written for data logging. The truth is they did nothing to aid us in submitting data because they didnt believe us, thats not going to help their credability any because we are right and have been the whole time.

For every time the community is right about something, there’s another time that they’ve been wrong about something. It happens all the time. Instead of people picking on a single word, perceived, and making it an insult, they should just take it for what the word means.

It’s like when someone’s charged with a crime, it’s always an alleged crime. It doesn’t mean the guy didn’t do the crime, it means it hasn’t been proven.

I still maintain people are too sensitive about the word itself. Because that’s what most people picked up on.

I agree most of the time on forums people are crying wolf, that in no way changes the fact that they made zero effort to help us provide the info that they themselves asked for.

Which is especially stupid of them to do because if they thought we were nuts which they obviously did after the xfiles comment providing us with the means to data log would do nothing but help prove them right in their minds, as they thought we couldnt be right.

Providing data logging could only benifit the situation no matter who was right, and its not like it wasnt brought up dozens of times in that thread so they cant play the kitten derp we didnt think fo that card here…

Nemisis.4690:

I do think a public apology is in order here, post haste sirs! Also, a return to good old listening to your players as they know what’s best for gaming, as we are gaming! We’re gamers, it’s what we do! You may be developers and bring this fine product all together but we know something you don’t… what works and what does not! So cut the arrogance and get back to putting out a bug-free and exciting game world.

/tinfoil ON

You know, listening to the players is a sticky proposition. Who do they listen to? The umpteen suggestions for mounts? The people who like Ascended gear, the people who want it patched out completely? The people who want more content, the people who want more content now, or the people who don’t want content until everything is 100% fixed but can’t seem to completely agree on everything that’s broken?

I’d like them to listen to their players. I’d also like to know they’re listening but not bowing to the will of the players.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nemisis.4690:

I do think a public apology is in order here, post haste sirs! Also, a return to good old listening to your players as they know what’s best for gaming, as we are gaming! We’re gamers, it’s what we do! You may be developers and bring this fine product all together but we know something you don’t… what works and what does not! So cut the arrogance and get back to putting out a bug-free and exciting game world.

/tinfoil ON

You know, listening to the players is a sticky proposition. Who do they listen to? The umpteen suggestions for mounts? The people who like Ascended gear, the people who want it patched out completely? The people who want more content, the people who want more content now, or the people who don’t want content until everything is 100% fixed but can’t seem to completely agree on everything that’s broken?

I’d like them to listen to their players. I’d also like to know they’re listening but not bowing to the will of the players.

This is why you only listen to the actual facts not any particular group of players.

Had they provided the ability for us to data log not only would more people have participated in the gathering of that data by a large margin(seriously, maybe 1% at the very most are going to spend the time to find/buy a program to record gameplay and encode and upload the footage, if we had a ingame option many more people would submit data) they would have found out about the issue much sooner, and avoided this PR blunder.

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nemisis.4690:

I do think a public apology is in order here, post haste sirs! Also, a return to good old listening to your players as they know what’s best for gaming, as we are gaming! We’re gamers, it’s what we do! You may be developers and bring this fine product all together but we know something you don’t… what works and what does not! So cut the arrogance and get back to putting out a bug-free and exciting game world.

/tinfoil ON

You know, listening to the players is a sticky proposition. Who do they listen to? The umpteen suggestions for mounts? The people who like Ascended gear, the people who want it patched out completely? The people who want more content, the people who want more content now, or the people who don’t want content until everything is 100% fixed but can’t seem to completely agree on everything that’s broken?

I’d like them to listen to their players. I’d also like to know they’re listening but not bowing to the will of the players.

This is why you only listen to the actual facts not any particular group of players.

Had they provided the ability for us to data log not only would more people have participated in the gathering of that data by a large margin(seriously, maybe 1% at the very most are going to spend the time to find/buy a program to record gameplay and encode and upload the footage, if we had a ingame option many more people would submit data) they would have found out about the issue much sooner, and avoided this PR blunder.

They won’t provide the ability for players to data log unless they also prevent the players from seeing that data or knowing they’re being logged. Otherwise the data may be faulty by being skewed (“I turn on my logging tool for the periods where I know it will support me, and turn it off when I do my real farming.”) or that log in itself could be data-mined to feed into bot programs.

These are extreme examples, but we have seen that people do go to such lengths if they want an edge.

Should I ask for my 2nd account to be unbanned by the communists just so I can 2nd +1 this thread?

Almost too tempting.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nemisis.4690:

I do think a public apology is in order here, post haste sirs! Also, a return to good old listening to your players as they know what’s best for gaming, as we are gaming! We’re gamers, it’s what we do! You may be developers and bring this fine product all together but we know something you don’t… what works and what does not! So cut the arrogance and get back to putting out a bug-free and exciting game world.

/tinfoil ON

You know, listening to the players is a sticky proposition. Who do they listen to? The umpteen suggestions for mounts? The people who like Ascended gear, the people who want it patched out completely? The people who want more content, the people who want more content now, or the people who don’t want content until everything is 100% fixed but can’t seem to completely agree on everything that’s broken?

I’d like them to listen to their players. I’d also like to know they’re listening but not bowing to the will of the players.

This is why you only listen to the actual facts not any particular group of players.

Had they provided the ability for us to data log not only would more people have participated in the gathering of that data by a large margin(seriously, maybe 1% at the very most are going to spend the time to find/buy a program to record gameplay and encode and upload the footage, if we had a ingame option many more people would submit data) they would have found out about the issue much sooner, and avoided this PR blunder.

They won’t provide the ability for players to data log unless they also prevent the players from seeing that data or knowing they’re being logged. Otherwise the data may be faulty by being skewed (“I turn on my logging tool for the periods where I know it will support me, and turn it off when I do my real farming.”) or that log in itself could be data-mined to feed into bot programs.

These are extreme examples, but we have seen that people do go to such lengths if they want an edge.

The program is running on the client PC anyways it would not be hard to record every line of code being processed if you have the knowlege, it only takes hackers hours/days to crack a program, and once cracked you can data mine it all you want and anet would have no idea so i dont see it as being a huge deal if they players see the data, they can anyways with little effort. Anet could verify the submitted data against their own server logs easy enough to detect any tampering with the data itself.

Data mining isnt going to hurt anyone, its just going to bring the facts into light.

Yeah, I’d love a tin foil hat for being right.

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rifter.6591:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Nemisis.4690:

I do think a public apology is in order here, post haste sirs! Also, a return to good old listening to your players as they know what’s best for gaming, as we are gaming! We’re gamers, it’s what we do! You may be developers and bring this fine product all together but we know something you don’t… what works and what does not! So cut the arrogance and get back to putting out a bug-free and exciting game world.

/tinfoil ON

You know, listening to the players is a sticky proposition. Who do they listen to? The umpteen suggestions for mounts? The people who like Ascended gear, the people who want it patched out completely? The people who want more content, the people who want more content now, or the people who don’t want content until everything is 100% fixed but can’t seem to completely agree on everything that’s broken?

I’d like them to listen to their players. I’d also like to know they’re listening but not bowing to the will of the players.

This is why you only listen to the actual facts not any particular group of players.

Had they provided the ability for us to data log not only would more people have participated in the gathering of that data by a large margin(seriously, maybe 1% at the very most are going to spend the time to find/buy a program to record gameplay and encode and upload the footage, if we had a ingame option many more people would submit data) they would have found out about the issue much sooner, and avoided this PR blunder.

They won’t provide the ability for players to data log unless they also prevent the players from seeing that data or knowing they’re being logged. Otherwise the data may be faulty by being skewed (“I turn on my logging tool for the periods where I know it will support me, and turn it off when I do my real farming.”) or that log in itself could be data-mined to feed into bot programs.

These are extreme examples, but we have seen that people do go to such lengths if they want an edge.

The program is running on the client PC anyways it would not be hard to record every line of code being processed if you have the knowlege, it only takes hackers hours/days to crack a program, and once cracked you can data mine it all you want and anet would have no idea so i dont see it as being a huge deal if they players see the data, they can anyways with little effort. Anet could verify the submitted data against their own server logs easy enough to detect any tampering with the data itself.

Data mining isnt going to hurt anyone, its just going to bring the facts into light.

That might be, but I’d still think having something which is geared to look distinctly at drop data would be half the battle when data mining :P

But then, I’m only an end-user and not a programmer or such. I only go by what friends can tell me about it. (Oddly, they told me close to what I said – a company trying not to give out precise data . . . in this case drop tables, would just get the info themselves.)

Vayne.8563:

Sensitive much? Perceived was the right word to use. If you don’t know there IS a problem, you can’t acknowledge it AS a problem, and therefore, it’s a perceived problem until they know more.

They can’t call it a problem because people (I know this is hard for you to believe), sometimes lie on the internet. Or exaagerate. So until they have hard date, it’s a perceived problem. That’s the right thing to call it. I don’t acknowedge things my kids say as problems until I know they’re problems, because half the time they’re not.

Have you ever seen this community over-react to anything that wasn’t a problem (gem store coughs). There were pages and pages of people talking about P2W and all sorts of stuff. For days. Weeks even. And it all went away and that was that.

Anet has no reason to believe a bunch of people saying stuff until it’s backed up by actual data. People should stop being so sensitive.

They asked for concrete data. They removed the only viable way to provide this data when they disabled the executable switch that logged the combat log to a local file on hard drive. They don’t allow for a copy paste of the combat log which does in fact keep track of every bit of damage done and received as well as all loot received.

When asked if this switch could be re-enabled for their request of ‘concrete data’ only silence ensued.

So yes both of those monumental threads were full of ‘perceived’ and anecdotal data given by players via the only means possible.

I don’t see entitlement here.

How many DPS warriors are out there that never had to worry about this issue at all? From Colin’s words alone it would seem those classes/builds that were focused on DPS really never saw a problem.

There’s still no reason to kill champs, Colin. Blue does not good reward make.

Colin – much appreciated that you are so active in the forums these past two days and that you took the time to post this. It is good for the community to have this communication open.

Can we get an in-game tinfoil hat? I would proudly wear it everywhere on my Ranger.

Iehova.9518:

There’s still no reason to kill champs, Colin. Blue does not good reward make.

Which part of “at least” do you not understand?

ColinJohanson.2394:

Infernia.9847:

Colin – much appreciated that you are so active in the forums these past two days and that you took the time to post this. It is good for the community to have this communication open.

Can we get an in-game tinfoil hat? I would proudly wear it everywhere on my Ranger.

I would love to wear one as well =)

Can I get one that looks like a horse?

Thanks Colin for your comments. Hopefully next patch will make every farmer… I mean player happy

I don’t believe it until the myth busters went through your data and perhaps blow up something.