Guild Wars 2

“I don’t want to do anything the game offers so the game has no endgame!”

Might be harsh but that is exactly what I read from your post. Explain to me what you WOULD like. You are basically asking for endless unique content and WoW style raids with a holy trinity here. The game has been in development for 5 years! What you are suggesting is impossible for a recently launched MMO. Heck what you are suggesting is impossible for ANY MMO. You just set yourself up for disappointment.

Sounds to me like you just burned out yourself due to hype and now refuse to do anything the game offer. Have you even attempted stuff like Arah explorable?

I reached level 80, and was extremely excited to see what the endgame held.

That’s like saying “after I got to San Diego from my home in New York, I was extremely excited to see what the journey to San Diego would be like.”

Anet couldn’t have been more explicit about what the “end game” was NOT going to be in GW2, and that the whole game was the end game.

Gank.4957:

“I don’t want to do anything the game offers so the game has no endgame!”

Might be harsh but that is exactly what I read from your post.

I think you’re making this a bit to easy for yourself. Of course, there is something to do on 80. But the point is, there’s so much more potential in this game for some real epic stuff which just didn’t make it into the game. At least at this point.

I tried to describe one possibility of 80 content here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/events/Why-did-you-not-push-World-PvE-one-step-further/first#post88968

ok.

ENOUGH, with that “endgame” talk.

do PvP, or start a guild, organize dungeons or arrange WvW nights, become a legendary crafter, start a guild to rule the AH.

honestly, there is no “endgame” to LIFE itself… !!

start doing something.
the
game
does have the possibilities

Crushl, your idea in the other thread sounds amazing, and hopefully there are such events on the horizon. I know some of the low level fights in this game are much more epic and fun than most low level content. Hopefully, they ramp up the high level content to be on par with what you described or imagined. Server events would be great where everyone would get an event alert when they logged on.

Evil.7529:

What happened to playing the game just to have fun and not playing it simply to get the next best piece of gear? If you don’t have fun PvP’ing then why would you have fun PvP’ing for gear? If you don’t have fun in raids then why would you have fun if it gave you better gear? If you don’t like doing the DE then why did you level up through them at all? Basically, if you don’t like anything the game offers, then why did you play it all the way to 80? If the game was fun before 80 doing all these things then how did it suddenly become not fun once you reached an arbitrary number? .

This is the reality, I think. People are utterly and thoroughly brainwashed by the Skinner box mentality. It’s simply the case that almost all content is viewed instrumentally by these players: what do I get out of it. That determines the “fun” of the content. It’s a very sad thing, but it goes to show you just how influential the Skinner design has been in online gaming.

knightblaster.8027:

Evil.7529:

What happened to playing the game just to have fun and not playing it simply to get the next best piece of gear? If you don’t have fun PvP’ing then why would you have fun PvP’ing for gear? If you don’t have fun in raids then why would you have fun if it gave you better gear? If you don’t like doing the DE then why did you level up through them at all? Basically, if you don’t like anything the game offers, then why did you play it all the way to 80? If the game was fun before 80 doing all these things then how did it suddenly become not fun once you reached an arbitrary number? .

This is the reality, I think. People are utterly and thoroughly brainwashed by the Skinner box mentality. It’s simply the case that almost all content is viewed instrumentally by these players: what do I get out of it. That determines the “fun” of the content. It’s a very sad thing, but it goes to show you just how influential the Skinner design has been in online gaming.

And how difficult it is to dispose of that mentality where it is not appropriate.

DusK.3849:

How are you people reading up on Guild Wars 2 before buying it and suddenly being shocked when you find out that the game is exactly like ANet said it was be? If you were keeping on on the game’s development, if you were reading what ANet was saying for the past 3 years, you should have known that what you’re looking for is completely absent from GW2. “The Endgame Reimaged” was just an amalgam of information that ArenaNet has been giving us about the game’s content since it was announced.

So why didn’t you know this stuff? Why did you buy this game thinking that the “endgame” was going to be like every other MMO out there? Why didn’t know know that the combat gets rid of the trinity? How do you not know that traits and a chosen build aren’t the only determining factor on how good a player is, that they avoided those “cookie-cutter” layouts you look for in party members in WoW on purpose because a person’s build doesn’t determine how good they are at the game? And for that matter, how did you not know that this game is more skill-based than gear-based or spec-based?

I’m pretty sure you lied about “scouring the web for a glimpse of this game’s content for the last 2 years”, because if you did, you wouldn’t be surpirsed upon learning that this game is exactly what ANet said it would be.

I <3 You! I couldn’t have said it better myself. The game isn’t without its issues, but people were seriously expecting way too much.

Korrigan.4837:

Grakk.8254:

… i have 100% world complete after day 8 of prelaunch on warrior…

… 284 hours played over 21 days…

That’s the source of your “problems”. You played a video game 13 hours a day for 3 weeks. I won’t go into the “get a life” comments, since one can just take a break for a new game release and your life is not my business, but NO game developer can keep up with someone who spends more time playing the game than doing his “real life” duties.
You’ve burned yourself out. You can’t blame ANet for that.

i haven’t burned myself out, there is just nothing of worth to do at 80, you obviously havent been to 80 for a week. Yes i have no life, i am not ashamed, infact i think that i am spoiled that i can play as much as i wish rather than your thoughts of me having no life, its great i love it. There is quite literally nothing to do of ANY worth after you hit 80, 100% completion which took less than a day to finish after i hit 80, and get full exotic gear. But then again there is no point in getting full exotic gear or legendaries except for show since there is no end game.

The end game that exists is zerg wvw, zerg events, grinding for legendary that does nothing for character advancement other than shiny looks, and tournaments that give you nothing.

The only acomplishment in explorer dungeons and their pvp is “i did it” which i already know i COULD do it if i desired to do so. There is no character advancement in doing any of it. No titles, no gear advancement, no going to the next difficulty of content. You continue to level and gain skill points FOR purely crafting legendaries that do nothing for you but “oh shiny!”

There is even an distinct feel of “why bother” with getting full exotic gear, because there is no purpose of getting it. Nothing to further use it for to go even further in content.

Not to mention the money sink of the crafting/mystic forging of your exotic gear, the 3s per waypoint usage, and the 15% tax cut on everything you sell on the trade post.

There is not a single desire to play a week after 80 unless you like zerg pvp for the sake of zerg pvping without any rewards. You can get that in any other game.

Metalripper.5406:

I seriously cannot believe the fanboyism in this thread, it’s absolutely preposterous.

I read up extensively read up on the GW2 combat mechanics, and it seemed like a revolutionary breakthrough, what I didn’t expect was the disastrous implementation of such ideas. Even the highest level dungeons rarely incorporate boss fights with anything more than “dodge when you need to, and pound on the boss until it’s dead”.
And it’s totally unacceptable.
For those of you criticizing the people who have already gotten to level 80, what do you seriously expect them to do? Sit around and farm hearts and dynamic events all day? Kill X of Y, kill X and bring me Y, defend X from Y, is not acceptable endgame content, and it is completely indefensible for ANet to pretend like it is.

agree 100%

Cawesome you are completely right as well.

Fidjit.4162:

A few things, mostly echoing what others have said:

1) ArenaNet “cheated” no one, since they’ve been shouting from the mountaintops for years about their philosophy. Anyone who thought differently was just uninformed.

2) I feel bad for the OP saying he “leveled by running from one heart to the next, sometimes being interrupted by events”. This is, simply, a huge shame. This game really rewards exploring and anyone who just rushes past it all will miss a lot.

3) “Character progression” is overrated, and absolutely not necessary. Sure, you want to have a goal to achieve, but why does it need to make you stronger or better? Just have fun doing what you’re doing.

4) If someone had fun exploring, doing events, hearts, finding vistas, dungeons, etc all while leveling…. why is that suddenly NOT acceptable once you’re 80? How is the fun sucked away once you’ve gotten there, and why should you expect anything different? It just baffles me.

to 2) you are right, the lvling was amazing. I even leveled a second character to 80 because of it when i havent had an “alt” in over 4 mmo games.

to 3)… mmos are all about character progression. Overrated? Go back to hello kitty island adventure.

to 4)… once you hit 80 there are no more “hearts” quests. No more quests, just exploring. So how is that acceptable? 80 compleley changes by that logic, that is how it is not acceptable. At 80 there is nothing else at all to do for 80 content, you grind mobs and events for crafting matts and karma. You go and zerg wvw with 40+ others. You go do 5 man dungeons that are either overtuned or incredibly easy where you stand there and dps a giant bar of hp and sometimes dodge 1 ability. These 5 man dungeons give you no gear any better than crafting/karma/mystic forge gear. Why even bother? You will lose more silver than gain in repairs until you have a group that knows what to do and has the right gear, and by right gear i mean 80 exotic, not 34 lvl blue gear cuz you want to do an explorer at lvl 45, then you breeze through it with no effort at all.

You could also spend countless hours grinding again, for a legendary weapon that gives you no advancement at all.

Ghaiana.3897:

Some people always want content beyond the content that is in a game. Even if you are a hardcore gamer, I seriously doubt you have already finished all the content (puzzles, crafting, all heart quests, all vista’s, all points of interest, all pvp objects, all achievements, all dungeons on every level).

crafting 400 and 400.
100% world completion at day 8
pvp objects and achievements are not content.
Dungeons have no reason to complete, or i would have already. There is no reason to do them.
Done some puzzles, but totally not doing them, again no progression at all, they are achievements so you should put them under achievements and not their own seperate point.

there is other games out there…
a game by itself cant replace your life.

whenever I see people claim there is endless zerging and dying in dungeons, I wonder if they even have completed a single run of them. Even in PUGS i have been with people who played using their mind and succeed. Why do you think the corpsezerging tactic is succesful? More than often WP are too far away to reach bosses before they have regenerated and battle starts again from the beginning. Dying over and over also gets very expensive compared to the average prosperity of players.

Meanwhile, months before the game’s release…

DusK.3849:

How are you people reading up on Guild Wars 2 before buying it and suddenly being shocked when you find out that the game is exactly like ANet said it was be? If you were keeping on on the game’s development, if you were reading what ANet was saying for the past 3 years, you should have known that what you’re looking for is completely absent from GW2. “The Endgame Reimaged” was just an amalgam of information that ArenaNet has been giving us about the game’s content since it was announced.

So why didn’t you know this stuff? Why did you buy this game thinking that the “endgame” was going to be like every other MMO out there? Why didn’t know know that the combat gets rid of the trinity? How do you not know that traits and a chosen build aren’t the only determining factor on how good a player is, that they avoided those “cookie-cutter” layouts you look for in party members in WoW on purpose because a person’s build doesn’t determine how good they are at the game? And for that matter, how did you not know that this game is more skill-based than gear-based or spec-based?

I’m pretty sure you lied about “scouring the web for a glimpse of this game’s content for the last 2 years”, because if you did, you wouldn’t be surpirsed upon learning that this game is exactly what ANet said it would be.

OP is looking for stuff that isn`t featured in this game (End Game and Raids)… maybe if OP did some research before buying the game he would have known exactly what this game was about and what features it has and doesn`t have.

I maybe can somewhat understand that when you come from games like WoW, Rift, etc… that once you hit 80 you might feel like there`s nothing to do. You are really mistaken if that`s what you think.

Not to sound like a jerk but maybe Guild Wars 2 is not your cup of tea… there`s loads of other game that do feature “End Game” content.

Now… there are some thing I would like to respond to though…

“The lack of anyone having a defined role makes it impossible to distinguish who is doing good or bad because they could appear to be doing anything. Healing and support are tied in to offensive abilities. When a group is dying, how do we know who to blame. When a group is thriving, how do we know who to think and to learn from. Winning or losing, everyone appears to be just aimlessly attacking and running around like chickens with their heads cut off. There is abolutely no structure.”

That my friend is total BS and its exactly because of this I stopped doing Dungeons in World of Warcraft. So when a GROUP (caps on purpose here) dies (wipes) you need to be able to blame an individual to feel better? Is that what you are saying?

Because honestly, why do you need roles and options to see what other people are doing?
If you are looking for Damage Meters… wrong game dude!

When a GROUP dies, you blame the group NOT the individual! Because if you group dies in this game, you all are to blame because you didn´t take care of each other, you didn´t play as a GROUP. Before blaming others maybe you guys should have a big long look to yourselfs and ask the following question: What could we have done to prevent this and what can we do to prevent this from happening next time. Not just blaming one guy and cursing and throwing insults followed by a kick out of the group (we all know how these things end…).

As I read your post… you are the last person I would do a Dungeon with, thats just my honest opinion.

Playing MMORPG`s is not about you, but about the GROUP. Keep that in mind next time…

If you are concerned about end game… you are playing the wrong game.

There is no end game, only game… yes, game… spell it slowly… g – a – m – e.

Game on people, game on… stop looking for the end of something that’s not there.

Not wanting to do what is available to do is not the same thing as there being nothing to do. You have plenty to do. You just don’t care to do it. Admit that to yourself and stop stating that there is nothing to do.

Every time someone uses the word end game… a kitten dies. Stop the needless killing of kittens. Stop using the term. Stop it. Stop it right now.

It seems that the OP didn’t research the game at all before buying it. This is exactly the game that ArenaNet promised. If you don’t like it, don’t play it.

Dont know about the endgame because not there yet personally however could a forum mod or someone make a sticky thread were all the kitten “no end game” posts can go!!

This will help others not to have to sort through this type of thread and then the devs can go to one place to read what they need to do in the next update.

Will wait patiently for the “you dont have to read” comments (and similar)

Everything you’ve said is true, this game has one of the worst fan boy followings i’ve seen…

Yes, me and my friends were all in awe and raving over how great GW2 was while we were leveling, it was a fantastic experience! However, the lack of content really becomes apparent at 80. The DE’s are not dynamic at all, following a zerg group around Orr to farm karma is 10x grindier than anything I’ve done in any other mmo. You want us to run around and explore the map? what? I’ve done enough of that on my quest to level 80 thank you very much (and trust me, collecting all vista’s,wp is in fact a grind).

WvW was fun at first but after a couple days you start to think what’s the point? For 5% increased server karma? There needs to be rankings or cool skin rewards, something players can work towards.

sPVP is a joke, you can’t even play unless you have a full team as it will auto balance you and your friends on opposing teams, who thought this through?

Honestly you can tell me i’ve been brainwashed by other mmo’s but the reality is once you hit 80 for a week I guarantee you will begin to come to the same conclusions as those of us who are already 80. I fully expect players to begin dropping off like flies much like D3, I know my friends who are 80 don’t even log in anymore.

I stopped playing at lvl 40. I didnt find anything new or revolutionary , just my opinion.

Although I myself would like to see a “real” end game added to Guild Wars 2, it’s not going to happen. If you did any homework and played GW1, you would know the End Game is about grinding for cosmetics and exploring. GW1 didn’t hold me very long, but was fun to play casually. Hard Core raiders will not be satisfied with GW2. World of Warcraft players will not be happy with GW2.

I wouldn’t want GW2 to have end game like World of Warcraft anyways, it would need challenge, something deep and not shallow. I just don’t see ArenaNet doing it though, and they shouldn’t. GW1 did really well, and GW2 is much better in a lot of ways. End Game even lacking.

You know I did include both forms of pvp in my dissection of “endgame”. There are a lot of posts saying something on the lines of “ya its a pvp game not pve go do that”. I consider pvp part of the endgame, and I already wrote plenty on that in my original post… Take a look.

knightblaster.8027:

Apotheosis.3786:

knightblaster.8027:

Birdy.4816:

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

They’ve elaborated in some detail their ideas about what “endgame” means to their design vision — right here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

You do realize that post is very new. No one bought the game after reading that post and reached lvl 80 yet. All the news actually going into detail about their shell of an endgame is brand new.

That post is new, but it was clear during the development phase that the endgame wasn’t going to be endless progression, but was going to be like Guild Wars was: easy stat capped gear, PvP, grinds for vanity looks, and the new element of DAoC W3. This was certainly very clear to me. Had the game instead had the typical MMO garbage of endless stat progression and gear castes at the endgame I would have been quitekitten because that isn’t what Arena had told us all along about the endgame.

Im sorry what is garbage about a good structured end-game with dungeons that are actually fun not zerg fests? what is garbage about structured reward systems that are actuall nice not farm 1500 tokens translating in 3XX boss kills in the same singular instance, whats garbage about having fun loot drops?

you people really don’t think these things through. whats garbage is grinding 1000s of mindless materials in a game that tries to stop you grinding/

whats garbage is dungeons that have very little thought into them, just the horrible chaotic diablo III mentallity (insane damage and health on all enemies that barely do anything of interest) and waypoint boss running (lame and skilless)

Whats garbage is a good pvp system not backed up by the neccesary skill ratings and statistisc, its all okay though because we can grind 80 ranks of nothingness.

You people live in denial.

People who are complaining about endgame are either A) Burnt out, or B) Just don’t enjoy the game enough to play without gear progression. That seems to be the biggest complaint I hear. “There’s no way to make my character stats better.” Well, I don’t know what to tell you. It’s just not that kind of game. You play to challenge your skills in PvE and PvP, and to just have fun.

Then there’s the “zerg” complaint. If you don’t like to zerg, go make friends and do something together… away from the zerg.

I think all the kittening and moaning about a lack of endgame is from people who have imprinted into their minds from games like WoW that vertical progression is the ONLY endgame that matters.

I’ll tell you folks this, GW2 is the first game since my beloved Asherons Call (which I played on and off for 14 years) that actually has MEANINGFUL endgame.

I have been 80 for almost 2 weeks now (Tuesday will be the 2nd week). I have so much tuff left to do and this isnt even considering WvW (of which I bought the game for). IMO GW2 has so much more MEANINGFUL endgame then WoW which has been out for 7+ years.

Birdy.4816:

knightblaster.8027:

Apotheosis.3786:

knightblaster.8027:

Birdy.4816:

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

They’ve elaborated in some detail their ideas about what “endgame” means to their design vision — right here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

You do realize that post is very new. No one bought the game after reading that post and reached lvl 80 yet. All the news actually going into detail about their shell of an endgame is brand new.

That post is new, but it was clear during the development phase that the endgame wasn’t going to be endless progression, but was going to be like Guild Wars was: easy stat capped gear, PvP, grinds for vanity looks, and the new element of DAoC W3. This was certainly very clear to me. Had the game instead had the typical MMO garbage of endless stat progression and gear castes at the endgame I would have been quitekitten because that isn’t what Arena had told us all along about the endgame.

Im sorry what is garbage about a good structured end-game with dungeons that are actually fun not zerg fests? what is garbage about structured reward systems that are actuall nice not farm 1500 tokens translating in 3XX boss kills in the same singular instance, whats garbage about having fun loot drops?

you people really don’t think these things through. whats garbage is grinding 1000s of mindless materials in a game that tries to stop you grinding/

whats garbage is dungeons that have very little thought into them, just the horrible chaotic diablo III mentallity (insane damage and health on all enemies that barely do anything of interest) and waypoint boss running (lame and skilless)

Whats garbage is a good pvp system not backed up by the neccesary skill ratings and statistisc, its all okay though because we can grind 80 ranks of nothingness.

You people live in denial.

This is all pure opinion which is fine. The things you complain about are exactly what I love about this game. I’ve had quite enough of the gear treadmill and the Gear > Skill PvP model and I am very happy that stuff is largely absent here.

Look, Vin, we all know Birdy’s opinion IS fact.

We’re just stating our concerns (which are valid) haha… look, the fanboys were defending D3 from criticism too saying how much fun they were having and that those complaining should leave. Do you know what happened?

Keep praising anet on their “revolutionary” game and telling us we should leave and that it’s not the game for us, just don’t be surprised when the game is a barren wasteland in 2 months

Grind is only present when the destination is all that matters. It’s subjective. If you are feeling grind it means that your expectations are set at the destination, instead of the journey. Not everyone is like that.

This MMO is for those that enjoy playing a game, not arriving somewhere. I really think its that simple. If you aren’t enjoying yourself, I just don’t understand why you are still playing? It’s ok really, you paid 60 bucks and got 80 great levels of content. Well done, that’s nice, it’s ok to move onto something more rewarding for you now.

I’m voicing my concerns because I did enjoy this game and I will continue to do so. Settle for mediocrity and that’s exactly what you’ll get.

Birdy.4816:

waypoint boss running

Only occurs when you’re bad, FYI. Stop blaming the game for a problem that’s between your chair and your keyboard.

Nodrog.7458:

We’re just stating our concerns (which are valid) haha… look, the fanboys were defending D3 from criticism too saying how much fun they were having and that those complaining should leave. Do you know what happened?

Keep praising anet on their “revolutionary” game and telling us we should leave and that it’s not the game for us, just don’t be surprised when the game is a barren wasteland in 2 months

Oh how I missed these kind of posts from other games

/sarcasm off

Okay, someone said this isn’t a talk about leveling, it’s about end game.
Just by saying this, I KNOW you missed the point entirely.

The leveling IS the end game.

ArenaNet wanted to make a game that was FUN! From beginning till the end! If the leveling is fun, why should anything change when you hit level 80? Does the stuff you were doing in levels 1-79 suddenly become unfun?

When they originally thought out the game, they debated not having levels at all! The ONLY reason they included levels, was to give the player a sense of progression.

The idea is that by the time the character is 80, they will have found the things they enjoy, and no longer need the arbitrary number increase of a level to feel progression. Progression is this game is ranked in other ways

Ways you can progress (by no means is this everything)

Puzzle/Jump quests
Crafting disiplines
Continuing to “level” after 80 for the skill points to make amazing weapon skins.
Collecting all the dyes in game
Completing dungeons (all modes)
World Completion
Experiencing all the DEs (will be changed and added over time as the team can update them)
Collecting the gear you like the look of.
Collecting the gear with the stats you want.(berserker/rampaging/etc)

Character Development:
Learning how to actually play your character. You have how many different skills? Learn multiple combinations, alter the traits to fit, try different builds. Learn how to be support in one situation and tank in another…learn how to kite and kill at the same time…
Story line quest. completion.

Play the Trading Post. It’s a real economy. Learn how to make money based on the ups and downs.

Collect all the mini pets.

Those are the just things that can show PROGRESSION. Face it, your progression isn’t based on a stupid number at the bottom of your screen. Your progression is based on what you CHOOSE to do with your character. If you don’t like the choices available (the same ones advertised months prior to release) then don’t play.

This game isn’t a standard MMO. ArenaNet knew that when releasing. They also knew that this game wouldn’t be for players who didn’t want a unique, fun, dynamic experience.

I’ve spent 2 days at 80. Not once during those 2 days did I stop and go OMG what am I supposed to do now?!

In all the other mmo’s I play, I reach cap, and go OMG what do I do now? I don’t like grind, I don’t like dungeons, I don’t like PvP (though I do here interestingly). In a standard MMO that means I have jack to do after cap except talk to my friends. In this game, I don’t EVER see that happening. Every day someone tells me something, and I’m like “NO WAY! I didn’t know that!” and rush off to try the newest thing!

It’s always, “I haven’t seen that dragon yet!” “How do I make weapons in the mystic forge?” “If I buy this will it work for this?” “Well let my change my traits and I’ll TRY the elixir gun flamethrower combo, but if you die, it’s your fault for suggesting it!” “No I don’t think I want to do that dungeon today, I’m trying to learn all the cooking recipes possible!” “I’m farming mats cuz I sold all mine, I’m rich!”

Not once have I gone “what now?” Hell if I get bored, I stop and redye my gear, then go do something!

Edit: Also to note, I made 8 chars, one of each class, expecting to do exactly what I’ve done in EVERY MMO I’ve ever played (which is probably upwards of 50, everything from beta’s to obscure indi’s to mainstream) Yet despite having 8 chars….I’ve only played one past level 16, because for the first time in my life, I don’t have to switch from character to character to keep from being bored, my one level 80 keeps me plenty entertained, despite being 80 and having no “endgame” as you would say.

I raided in WoW. I downed bosses in Firelands. Even did a few of them on heroic. Downed some of the bosses in the regular Dragon Soul. I’m tired of raiding. I’m tired of working so long and hard to get my gear only for it to end up being worthless when the next tier hits. I love it when my character looks awesome. I hate it when that awesome gear becomes useless.

I enjoy playing GW2. The dynamic events and the dungeons, for me, give me as much thrill as raiding 10 man content ever did. And the best thing is, after I grind out all the tokens for the dungeon set I want for my characters, I know it won’t be obsolete when the next expansion is released.

I’m sorry that those of you who want to keep on chasing carrots are disappointed. The game is exactly what Anet has been saying it would be. I really don’t understand why you are complaining now.

Vincire.1048:

Birdy.4816:

knightblaster.8027:

Apotheosis.3786:

knightblaster.8027:

Birdy.4816:

Only it makes no sense, no where have they said there won’t be an end-game, they just stated that the content will be good from the start. a persistant MMO still requires the end-game…….

They’ve elaborated in some detail their ideas about what “endgame” means to their design vision — right here: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

You do realize that post is very new. No one bought the game after reading that post and reached lvl 80 yet. All the news actually going into detail about their shell of an endgame is brand new.

That post is new, but it was clear during the development phase that the endgame wasn’t going to be endless progression, but was going to be like Guild Wars was: easy stat capped gear, PvP, grinds for vanity looks, and the new element of DAoC W3. This was certainly very clear to me. Had the game instead had the typical MMO garbage of endless stat progression and gear castes at the endgame I would have been quitekitten because that isn’t what Arena had told us all along about the endgame.

Im sorry what is garbage about a good structured end-game with dungeons that are actually fun not zerg fests? what is garbage about structured reward systems that are actuall nice not farm 1500 tokens translating in 3XX boss kills in the same singular instance, whats garbage about having fun loot drops?

you people really don’t think these things through. whats garbage is grinding 1000s of mindless materials in a game that tries to stop you grinding/

whats garbage is dungeons that have very little thought into them, just the horrible chaotic diablo III mentallity (insane damage and health on all enemies that barely do anything of interest) and waypoint boss running (lame and skilless)

Whats garbage is a good pvp system not backed up by the neccesary skill ratings and statistisc, its all okay though because we can grind 80 ranks of nothingness.

You people live in denial.

This is all pure opinion which is fine. The things you complain about are exactly what I love about this game. I’ve had quite enough of the gear treadmill and the Gear > Skill PvP model and I am very happy that stuff is largely absent here.

I didnt even mention PvP gear grinding because I 100% agree with you….

But at least making end-game exotic farming FUN with a well designed PvE endgame, not this anti-farming, yet worse farm thatn other games trash that currently plagues it.

As someone who does not have time to sit around and play this game for hours at a time and as someone who used to, I have to say that it is a little silly to act like this is a serious issue when the ones who have powered hardcore through the content are not the average player whatsoever.

Also resonating on the fact that they have been very transparent about their vision for the end-game. Walking into the experience uninformed is only making the complaints disproportionately louder than the issue is significant. As the OP stated, they were shocked when they finally heard.

I’ll not suffer the idea that the “end game” content is perfect in any way, but those who were expecting a typical MMO end-game are now crying much more loudly about it than is reasonable because they were misinformed.

Not true what you said about WvW and pvpers, i love WvW and its the only reason why i play this game, you dont have to zerg in WvW, a single group or even only a couple of decent players can kill dozens of enemies and take/hold supply camps since most people in this game are simply horrible, which is alot of fun, if you cant manage that it only means you are also horrible.

This is a mmo, stop saying “give it time”, a mmo has enough content to keep players interested and keep up with the concurrence or it has it not and fails and GW2 in it’s current state has very broken endgame content.

The fanboyism here is lollable. The OP made a lot of legitimate criticisms/complaints; I don’t agree with all of them but he was not obnoxious about it, yet virtually all of the responders who disagreed with him couldn’t do so without flaming.

Now for my Opinion, which is ever so important and should be adhered to strictly to the exclusion of everyone else’s:

Personally, I liked the leveling up more than most games. the quest hearts and dynamic events, both in terms of being less repetitive and not absolutely necessary to level up, are better than most other games.

I don’t have a problem with there not being a “holy trinity”, and for that matter, most classes have weapons and trait specializations that allow them to be tanks and healers, so organizing who is specced for what with your group is still an important part of dungeon running.

My only problem with WVW currently is that the bonuses are reset daily and the hacks/exploits people are using to take keeps, and those will presumably be fixed with time and the bonus extended. It would be nice if a fraction of it carried over to the next cycle, so it wouldn’t go completely to waste, or something to that effect, though.

The problem with the “endgame” is simply that there is no character progression, and character progression is a core aspect to RPGs. Without it, we might as well just have an FPS and cut out the leveling altogether. The fact that your character will be stronger after you X event IS much of the appeal of most RPGs. Of course it is bad if said X event is boring and you have to do it over and over numerous times, but without that progression, many players will not stay. I don’t have anything against people who like racking up achievements, exploration, or aesthetic gear, but I don’t really care about those things, and yet according to half the people here, that makes me “brainwashed” to enjoy meaningless numbers going up. The same could be said about meaningless achievements, or that the same massive grind is required to get the aesthetics here as is the gear grind elsewhere, but arguing as to which is better or more important is futile; some people enjoy character progression, some people enjoy achievements and aesthetics, it’s a matter of opinion. The problem is that if character progression is completely absent once you have a set or two of lv80 exotic gear, then the crowd that likes character progression is going to quit and probably not purchase the future expansions, and the game will lose a large chunk of its population. The argument that adding tiered gear would force people to get it is also not true; most games have separate PvE and PvP gearsets or rules such that hardcore PvE raiders do not have an advantage in PvP, so that said gear would only help in PvE situations. No one is forcing me to go to every single waypoint in the game; no one is forcing you to go into progression-type events or do said gear grinds for gear which will have limited to no impact outside of said events anyway.

As for “this was what Anet said their game would be so don’t complain”, I read everything on their site plus a couple reviews and beta videos and didn’t see anything about stat caps or lack of character progression. Even the Sept. 13 dev post doesn’t expressly say they will be absent from the game. I didn’t play GW1 and don’t read every single blog or scrap of information on the internet beforehand, nor is it reasonable to expect that people do many hours of research before purchasing a game. That said, I do not feel “cheated”; the game was/is fun, I am simply disappointed. I would also presume that Anet would probably like to retain both types of players when it comes time to release an expansion, and alienating half of them is not the way to go about doing that.

They touched on a power plateau at max level around the time they had the ele reveal. Countless blogs and discussions in the years after that. You mean to tell me that somehow, when you “read everything on their site plus a couple reviews and beta videos”, you somehow missed all of that?

Here’s a link to a blog post by Colin touching on how a gear treadmill will not be in the game.

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Here’s Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum in a video a few weeks before release talking about endgame.

So basically, yes, ArenaNet has said gear progression past max level will not be in the game. So if you bought this game expecting a gear treadmill, you might as well go out and buy Battlefield 3 expecting it to be Quake-esque arena shooter since you insist on being an uninformed consumer.

The Sentence: The Endgame begins with level 1 is of course a marketing lie because it definitly has no pve endgame that´s why it can be build without monthly cost.
If you define fun in pve when you replace an existing treadmill ( dungeon farm) through another farm method it is not creative or ?
“I swung a sword Hey I swung sword again till came to the fun stuff. We think that´s not ok …boring grind” Colin Johanson said something like this you know.
PVE in this game is exactly that. Ki turned off only HP.
I think PVE in this game lives by this perfect artwork and love to details but thats it.
If you do PVP you can´t even benefit from that unfortunately.

PvP was tuned in the last 3 weeks of the beta that´s not near to professionial work. I mean my necro has 40 bugs in his class 40…
Even if the basement is done well they have to show if they turn it in a good game.
On the other side a developer who can´t do this in 5 years you can say won´t get it now.

Sekai.5708:

TThe fact that your character will be stronger after you X event IS much of the appeal of most RPGs.

Have you any idea how glacially slow character progression was in RPGs originally (i.e. tabletop and earlier CRPGs)?

Even the idea of “levels” was introduced almost as a joke by one of the earlier MUD developers.

No, the idea of RPGs originally was ROLE PLAYING GAMES. “Progression” of some sort, certainly, but not necessarily the idea of some sort of continual power creep.

That was only introduced into games where the intention was to keep people addicted to hamster wheels so they’d keep paying money. In fact, it’s this very necessity for progression-that-isn’t-progression (the hamster wheel of gear grind then level cap rise then fresh gear grind) that has almost killed the magic and real potential of the genre.

In a sub-less game, there is no longer any need for hamster wheels, because the idea isn’t to keep players addicted (so they’ll keep paying a subscription) but to keep them in love with the virtual world enough to buy the next expansion a year down the line. That doesn’t mean they have to play the game continuously. The idea is to expand the content of the game, and change the world itself over time so that there’s always something fresh around the corner.

Not just add another hamster wheel.

DusK.3849:

They touched on a power plateau at max level around the time they had the ele reveal. Countless blogs and discussions in the years after that. You mean to tell me that somehow, when you “read everything on their site plus a couple reviews and beta videos”, you somehow missed all of that?

Here’s a link to a blog post by Colin touching on how a gear treadmill will not be in the game.

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Here’s Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum in a video a few weeks before release talking about endgame.

So basically, yes, ArenaNet has said gear progression past max level will not be in the game. So if you bought this game expecting a gear treadmill, you might as well go out and buy Battlefield 3 expecting it to be Quake-esque arena shooter since you insist on being an uninformed consumer.

Correct. I did not read two random blogs released just prior to the game before buying it. I read what was on the main website, specifically the dungeons section which is very much in contrast to “aesthetics only,” and did a couple hours of research otherwise, most of it before June 19th, which would make coming across that information rather unlikely. Calling anyone that didn’t hunt down every last blog about the game uninformed consumers is ridiculous, and judging by your other posts in this thread you are either a rabid fanboy or a bad troll anyway, so kindly take it elsewhere. Neither I nor the OP nor many of the people concerned about the lack of endgame are saying GW2 is a bad game, but we would rather not see it be the next Warhammer, which is what it will be without some form of post-80 character progression. That actually does include things outside of the “gear treadmill”. AA/skill points that only work in certain areas so as to keep pvp balanced, heroic bonuses that only apply to heroic dungeons, there are numerous possibilities that could be implemented with minimal effort and without disrupting the other aspects of the game.

Thank god there’s finally an MMO that’s not trying to stick me in a Skinner Box and put me on an endless gear treadmill to stay remotely competitive.

I want my character to actually be great, not a coat hanger for greatness.

I’ve linked this before on another forum, but I’ll just drop this here, too. It’s both well-written and, imo, quite thought-provoking.

Five Creepy Ways Video Games Are Trying to Get You Addicted

So many people have professed to enjoy the ride to 80, but complain about a “lack of endgame” when there’s really more to do here at max level than games with gear tiers — stretched out by lockout timers and RNGfests — have. Required gear grinds, RNG loot tables and lockouts aren’t content — they’re a rather transparent way to camouflage a lack of content.

Just because you state the endgame should begin at level 1 does not automatically make people assume that it will end at 80.

I find it funny that my post was moved to the suggestions forum when I didn’t suggest a single thing in my post.

For the record… I’m not frustrated over any supposed “lack of endgame”. I’ve been playing endgame the whole time, and loving it, tyvm.

knightblaster.8027:

This is the reality, I think. People are utterly and thoroughly brainwashed by the Skinner box mentality. It’s simply the case that almost all content is viewed instrumentally by these players: what do I get out of it. That determines the “fun” of the content. It’s a very sad thing, but it goes to show you just how influential the Skinner design has been in online gaming.

Players are not wrong to want to improve their characters via game activities. That is the ENTIRE point of an RPG. To become a bigger hero. To become stronger. That’s why they start out as half-nekkid peasants, are sent on adventures, go through trials and tribulations, and eventually slay dragons. With a bigger sword than they ever could have imagined, mind you. Because that’s what its all about. PROGRESSION. That’s the Genre. Why is this such a difficult concept?

Sometimes i think im in the twilight zone with some of these threads. OP seriously if you did even a small bit of research you would have known all there is to know about GW2. People want this game to be like every previous mmo that has tried to do what only works for blizzard and kinda for Trion.

I don’t understand why the vocal minority are trying sokittenhard to change this game into another copy cat. People wanted something different in the genre and here we have Arena Net bringing forth GW2 now people are complaining that its not like their previous copy cat mmo. hell one poster even complained about it not being like the Witcher and Skyrim. I mean what the kitten?

Apotheosis.3786:

When a group is dying, how do we know who to blame. When a group is thriving, how do we know who to thank and to learn from.

Oh god, this. Last night I went on a pug with 4 people from another guild and left the group after like 6 wipes on the same easy room. Upon my last death, I was frustrated, and the people who were assigned specific tasks weren’t doing them. As I was waiting to resurrect after the rest of the party died, I turned the camera around to see the guy assigned to kiting enemies around was playing with only his left hand, attacking 1 enemy every 5 seconds. If that would have been me I would have cleared almost all of the enemies attacking me to stop them from overwhelming the group. I cannot play with slackers.

I told them that I couldn’t play the game any more, left the group and logged out. I logged in today to do a daily and felt sick playing in the middle of being chased by Pirates of the Caribbean zombies while trying to farm materials at a snail’s pace and just logged out.

Scourge.4317:

Sometimes i think im in the twilight zone with some of these threads. OP seriously if you did even a small bit of research you would have known all there is to know about GW2. People want this game to be like every previous mmo that has tried to do what only works for blizzard and kinda for Trion.

I don’t understand why the vocal minority are trying sokittenhard to change this game into another copy cat. People wanted something different in the genre and here we have Arena Net bringing forth GW2 now people are complaining that its not like their previous copy cat mmo. hell one poster even complained about it not being like the Witcher and Skyrim. I mean what the kitten?

Well it obviously didn’t work. My pvp team stopped logging in altogether, and the group of 5 friends I started this game with has withered down to just me. I log on for about an hour before I realize there isn’t a point and log off. It’s pretty depressing.

I didn’t rush to 80. I played for 3-4 hours a day and got there in a little over a week. I tried the spvp tourney thing and well… my original post explains how that went.

Not sure how much longer I can wait for news of added content, changes, or miraculously stumbling over something to do. Been waiting too long for this game to give up on the first month, but idk…. I’m stubborn.