If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
Full Zerkers ONLY!
The problem is that ALL you care about is DPS. You should care about Control, healing/support, and DPS equally.
Support comes from traits and skills. Useful support is stuff that prevents your team from taking damage or suffering from control effects. The best ways to prevent your team from taking damage is active defense, and another good way is killing things faster. Notice how non-DPS gear is no more effective here, except it takes longer to kill things, meaning you have less support per time. DPS gear is better at support than other gear.
Control effects do not scale with gear. Again, we’re talking traits and skills. If you reduce the fight time, control effects can be maintained on foes for a longer percentage of the fight. DPS gear leads to stronger control than non-DPS gear.
Healing (other than the mandatory heal skill on your bar) is rather useless in PvE outside a few specific instances where your group might dip below 90% health due to conditions, losing the scholar bonus. If you kill things quickly, you don’t need to waste time healing that could be spent killing. And of course, most healing scales very poorly with healing power, and all healing cannot come CLOSE to compensating for unmitigated damage that mobs put out. It’s much more effective to just not take damage because you’re using control/support/damage to end encounters quickly while taking practically zero damage.
If your goal in this game is to play efficiently, DPS is your primary concern. In this game, and every other game, even those with the trinity, your goal is to complete things as quickly as possible. In other games, you bring healers and such only because they are needed to complete the content; you bring the minimum amount of healers you need, and you don’t bring any healers if you don’t need them. Support, control, and healing are only useful in as much as they allow you to efficiently complete content. They support your DPS, which is why they’re good in this game, and every other game, including those that have the trinity system.
Your problem here is that you apparently don’t understand how this game works, or even how every other game with dedicated tanks/support/healers/dps works.
If your goal in this game is to play efficiently, DPS is your primary concern. In this game, and every other game, even those with the trinity, your goal is to complete things as quickly as possible.
Your problem here is that you apparently don’t understand how this game works-
Foremost goal for playing a game should be having fun.
What are you speedrunning for if not entertainment?
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Persoanlly, I’d like to see a new dungeon featuring primarily Mordrem. All Zerker won’t be the meta there, I can almost guarantee. You would see a mix being meta.
Why? because Mordrem attack fast enough that going glass cannon actually matters on the negative front. You can’t avoid everything, and they hurt. Then there are the Husks that just laugh at Zerkers. Factor in Menders and Leechers, you need some serious diversity in a 5-man dungeon.
I dont play for efficiency. I play for a challenge. Challenges are fun for me, and going fast allows for less challenges, because I can dodge the few times I have to. Taking longer, whether its using non Berserker or 3-4 party members instead of 5, means I have to manage my defensive mechanics more intelligently.
“He shall make whole that which was torn asunder.
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”
Everyone should be allowed to play how they want without having ignorant comments like “face roller” being thrown at them by zerker elitists
Now that is comedy gold,
Oddly, it’s not the ZERK ONLY 15K AP PING GEAR thing that gets me. I’m fine making my own groups.
What’s not fine are trolls that will hijack a group with minority kick-votes. That is the thing that keeps me from running dungeons.
I once made a group in LFG labeled “All Welcome! Watching Cutscenes!”
A Warrior joined and instantly attempted to kick my Necromancer friend.
It was her first run. We were on skype. She just wanted to see the story.
Haha I’ve had a pug try to kick a friend. When we voted against it, he quit.
Honestly what is the point of all these arguments? If everyone just pays attention to the lfg, there should be no issues.
Persoanlly, I’d like to see a new dungeon featuring primarily Mordrem. All Zerker won’t be the meta there, I can almost guarantee. You would see a mix being meta.
Why? because Mordrem attack fast enough that going glass cannon actually matters on the negative front. You can’t avoid everything, and they hurt. Then there are the Husks that just laugh at Zerkers. Factor in Menders and Leechers, you need some serious diversity in a 5-man dungeon.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind
Mordrems aren’t different from other mobs. They are well thought, balanced, and offer a better challenge than usual mobs, but I’m still perfectly fine killing them in full berserker.
If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
Oddly, it’s not the ZERK ONLY 15K AP PING GEAR thing that gets me. I’m fine making my own groups.
What’s not fine are trolls that will hijack a group with minority kick-votes. That is the thing that keeps me from running dungeons.
I once made a group in LFG labeled “All Welcome! Watching Cutscenes!”
A Warrior joined and instantly attempted to kick my Necromancer friend.
It was her first run. We were on skype. She just wanted to see the story.
Haha I’ve had a pug try to kick a friend. When we voted against it, he quit.
Honestly what is the point of all these arguments? If everyone just pays attention to the lfg, there should be no issues.
Point is, the people complaining about elitism or things like that feel like they are within they right to join a non suited lfg because they ought to play the most efficient way without the drawbacks. Then, when they get kicked, they come here and complain.
If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
Persoanlly, I’d like to see a new dungeon featuring primarily Mordrem. All Zerker won’t be the meta there, I can almost guarantee. You would see a mix being meta.
Why? because Mordrem attack fast enough that going glass cannon actually matters on the negative front. You can’t avoid everything, and they hurt. Then there are the Husks that just laugh at Zerkers. Factor in Menders and Leechers, you need some serious diversity in a 5-man dungeon.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind
Mordrems aren’t different from other mobs. They are well thought, balanced, and offer a better challenge than usual mobs, but I’m still perfectly fine killing them in full berserker.
Only thieves can spam blinds fast enough, and against some Mordrem, blinding really doesn’t do anything (like Threshers).
I’m still willing to bet that the ideal group for a Mordrem-filled dungeon would be a mix, though, instead of pure Zerker. Might have some zerker players, but 5/5 is probably not your best group.
Persoanlly, I’d like to see a new dungeon featuring primarily Mordrem. All Zerker won’t be the meta there, I can almost guarantee. You would see a mix being meta.
Why? because Mordrem attack fast enough that going glass cannon actually matters on the negative front. You can’t avoid everything, and they hurt. Then there are the Husks that just laugh at Zerkers. Factor in Menders and Leechers, you need some serious diversity in a 5-man dungeon.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind
Mordrems aren’t different from other mobs. They are well thought, balanced, and offer a better challenge than usual mobs, but I’m still perfectly fine killing them in full berserker.Only thieves can spam blinds fast enough, and against some Mordrem, blinding really doesn’t do anything (like Threshers).
I’m still willing to bet that the ideal group for a Mordrem-filled dungeon would be a mix, though, instead of pure Zerker. Might have some zerker players, but 5/5 is probably not your best group.
I don’t mean to be rude but you’re 100% wrong. A dungeon filled with unskippable mordrem trash mobs would be easily beaten by 5 berserkers using blinds, CC and AOE dps to cut through them like butter. Mordrem are no more challenging than the packs of risen elites in arah and 5 berserkers are more than capable of cutting through them, so long as the party knows what they are doing.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
Guardians spam blinds. Eles, necros, engis have access to aoe blinds. I can’t see how this will change anything. In fractal 50, heartseekers from the colossus fractal hit me twice my health if crit. I’m still using my berserker guardian, and blinds doesn’t refresh on those. Mobs in arah are also fast hitting. Take illusionists, for instance. They wipe inexperienced players in a matter of seconds. Making mobs more difficult would just make it harder, not impossible.
If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.
I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.
Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:
Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)
lol
Persoanlly, I’d like to see a new dungeon featuring primarily Mordrem. All Zerker won’t be the meta there, I can almost guarantee. You would see a mix being meta.
Why? because Mordrem attack fast enough that going glass cannon actually matters on the negative front. You can’t avoid everything, and they hurt. Then there are the Husks that just laugh at Zerkers. Factor in Menders and Leechers, you need some serious diversity in a 5-man dungeon.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind
Mordrems aren’t different from other mobs. They are well thought, balanced, and offer a better challenge than usual mobs, but I’m still perfectly fine killing them in full berserker.Only thieves can spam blinds fast enough, and against some Mordrem, blinding really doesn’t do anything (like Threshers).
I’m still willing to bet that the ideal group for a Mordrem-filled dungeon would be a mix, though, instead of pure Zerker. Might have some zerker players, but 5/5 is probably not your best group.
I don’t mean to be rude but you’re 100% wrong. A dungeon filled with unskippable mordrem trash mobs would be easily beaten by 5 berserkers using blinds, CC and AOE dps to cut through them like butter. Mordrem are no more challenging than the packs of risen elites in arah and 5 berserkers are more than capable of cutting through them, so long as the party knows what they are doing.
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
Let’s bet, I need gold.
If you’re on EU and need help to get into dungeons, pm me.
I fully agree. Everyone should be allowed to play how they want without having ignorant comments like “face roller” being thrown at them by zerker elitists like Skady. It’s really sickening to see players like him dismissing other people’s play styles as “face rolling” because they somehow think their idea of “fun” is somehow superior to someone else’s. People like this are ignorant and not worth a second thought.
I play zerker on some characters or other builds on others. Other gear types and play styles aren’t just “face rolling” like some ignorant zerker elitists would have you believe (except maybe Clerics. Sorry, kinda true xP ) I still find I have to actively be careful while running other builds as well. Zerker is fun, but sometimes I want to play another way, besides melting everything. They’re not as fast as zerkler, granted, but I find them fun and they’re far from being simple face-roller builds.
Play what you want, whether that’s zerker, support, hybrid, whatever. Everyone is free to enjoy the game how they want. I don’t have a problem telling someone whose being disrespectful about how I choose to play the game, to go suck a rusty railroad spike.
TL;DR While zerker may be faster any build can be utilized skillfully and effectively. Don’t let the Zerker cultists convince you otherwise. At the end of the day, everyone’s idea of fun is different, and yours isn’t any better than someone else’s simply because its ‘logical’, or whatever such bull.
With unbound dodge. Yeah, so much skill. No facerolling included.
Look at that beautiful gameplay. That tactics, that intuitive use of skills!
Let’s bet, I need gold.
Dungeon has to come first. When it happens, contact me then.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
The main difference between mobs and players is that players think and don’t just use chain 1,2,3,4,5, 6,1,2,3,4,5,7 – you’d be surprised how many zerkers are in wvw though, it’s a lot, me being one of them.
Persoanlly, I’d like to see a new dungeon featuring primarily Mordrem. All Zerker won’t be the meta there, I can almost guarantee. You would see a mix being meta.
Why? because Mordrem attack fast enough that going glass cannon actually matters on the negative front. You can’t avoid everything, and they hurt. Then there are the Husks that just laugh at Zerkers. Factor in Menders and Leechers, you need some serious diversity in a 5-man dungeon.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind
Mordrems aren’t different from other mobs. They are well thought, balanced, and offer a better challenge than usual mobs, but I’m still perfectly fine killing them in full berserker.Only thieves can spam blinds fast enough, and against some Mordrem, blinding really doesn’t do anything (like Threshers).
I’m still willing to bet that the ideal group for a Mordrem-filled dungeon would be a mix, though, instead of pure Zerker. Might have some zerker players, but 5/5 is probably not your best group.
I don’t mean to be rude but you’re 100% wrong. A dungeon filled with unskippable mordrem trash mobs would be easily beaten by 5 berserkers using blinds, CC and AOE dps to cut through them like butter. Mordrem are no more challenging than the packs of risen elites in arah and 5 berserkers are more than capable of cutting through them, so long as the party knows what they are doing.
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
I honestly don’t know what your dungeon/fractal experience is like, but you honestly appear to not have an understanding of what organized groups are capable of.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
People dislike seeing Zerker as requirement.
People want more diversity.People don’t want Tanks.
People don’t want Healers.
People don’t want required supporters.
This just screams hypocrisy.
I do dislike seeing zerker as a req, as should everyone…even if I ran zerk, I’d dislike it, simply because of the elitist mentality it portrays. I would actually like to see less diversity. Having every profession being able to be anything is problematic on many fronts, makes balancing a nightmare and should be reigned in. Of course, tanks and healers are optional in GW2 and are considered a lesser breed. Condi users as well with the condition stack greatly hampering them. This is largely due to not enough areas/events where such players are needed. Without required trinity, they really don’t have a clearly required role in GW2.
Having areas/events where there are “required” supporters or the event becomes (nearly) impossible makes lfg more difficult and actually requires the ability to strategize and communicate. Not a great strength of most GW2 players. You need to be organized, you need to know what your job is and what to do. Other than MAYBE Teq, or the 3 wurm event, where you need at least some dedicated cleansing, there is nothing like this in GW2. I have seen some guilds employ such strategies in WvW. I’d actually like to see more content where strategy is actually needed and where DPS is not enough to get through.
We should have mobs/bosses that are immune to certain attacks, including DD, and others where they have certain weakness’ such as poison. I know some have weakness’ and immunities, but it’s always conditions. But of course, the global condition stack limit will be problematic. There should be a global DD limit similar to CD. This would make the zerker build less viable in large groups similar to how it is with condition users and force more group diversification. Since spamming DD like many players do now would be limited, like condition users, more planning and organization would be required, overall increasing the skill level of the player base.
(edited by Leamas.5803)
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.
5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.
Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
there is a “best equipment” in almost every game of this kind I ever experienced. GW2 is rather forgiving as really everyone can attain it. For the vast majority of PVE it appears to be Zerker. So, why not just get that if you don´t want to be excluded? That whole swimming against the tide and then complaining thing seems pretty juvenile to me, really.
there is a “best equipment” in almost every game of this kind I ever experienced. GW2 is rather forgiving as really everyone can attain it. For the vast majority of PVE it appears to be Zerker. So, why not just get that…
Might as well give everyone a single profession with a single build….how dull. I certainly wouldn’t still be playing.
Blind spam OP, nerf it to the ground!!!
Mordrem master mob!
there is a “best equipment” in almost every game of this kind I ever experienced. GW2 is rather forgiving as really everyone can attain it. For the vast majority of PVE it appears to be Zerker. So, why not just get that…
Might as well give everyone a single profession with a single build….how dull. I certainly wouldn’t still be playing.
I wonder … Do WoW (or any other MMO for that matter) had forum posts where for example DK’s complained why they can’t use intellect gear to play healers? Or is it some GW2 special thingy with snowflakes and such?
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.
5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.
Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers
I’ve fought all the mordrem. I grinded 1200 crests for my Sinister set, thanks. I have solo’ed some of the underground champs too.
I am comfortable with their mechanics and how easily a group of 5 skilled players with meta builds would mow them down. Black Powder, Binding Blades and Ice Storm can defeat almost any trash mobs in the game. And the ones that are immune to blind are not immune to Tremor.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
Blind spam OP, nerf it to the ground!!!
Mordrem master mob!
I assume this is directed at me, but most dungeon groups don’t use blind spam because it requires a thief (not necessarily a bad thing) and it’s worthless against bosses or dredge.
Mordrem are more difficult than earlier mobs because ANet has learned a lot. You can see the progression in difficulty from mobs at launch, through Karka (high armor, vets have some nasty attacks), then Molten Alliance (boons and CC mixed with hard-hitting attacks being common), Aetherblades (strong mix of blocks, evades, CC, and boons and Confusion), Toxic Alliance (rapid attacks, evades, reflects, blocks, conditions) and now Mordrem (basically everything but blocks).
It shouldn’t be surprising I feel Mordrem are the strongest enemy type because they’ve inherited ANet’s learning from prior enemy types in their design.
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.
5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.
Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers
Are you even aware of what a Fractal scale 80 is even like? Mobs hit hard. VERY hard. Far harder than anything in a regular dungeon. FAR harder. Also, there’s more dredge types than just boonspammers and burrowers. lol. I’m convinced you’ve never done a fractal before.
I wonder … Do WoW (or any other MMO for that matter) had forum posts where for example DK’s complained why they can’t use intellect gear to play healers? Or is it some GW2 special thingy with snowflakes and such?
Not so far as I know, but then again WoW forums are even more toxic than these so… I won’t be going there. =P
Thing is, DKs at least get tank role, which is the most sought after.
The ones begging for alternate roles are the pure-DPS classes (Hunter, Warlock, Mage, Rogue), because they’re so often replaceable with other two/three role classes.
And there’s a reason why Trinity exists everywhere else. Some players enjoy healing and tanking. One of my friends hates DPS roles, because of constant ratings and competition. It’s not about being a “special snowflake.” It’s about having multiple styles of play for variety’s sake, and for a long time, GW2 encounters have missed the mark.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.
5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.
Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers
Are you even aware of what a Fractal scale 80 is even like? Mobs hit hard. VERY hard. Far harder than anything in a regular dungeon. FAR harder.
And when you’re avoiding everything anyway due to low mob attack speeds, how hard they hit is irrelevant. Part of the reason why people see the Zerker meta as problematic is because active defense is more than plentiful enough to outstrip actual incoming attacks. Just too few attacks coming in, so you can completely avoid getting hit in most situations.
Yes, you have to be careful to not pull the whole room on you, but I can easily see a run where you just don’t get hit at all if you have a couple thieves for stealthing the switches and bomb/door break rooms. Back then, you also had the “stand on the clown car wheel” trick where you literally never got attacked by a champ and a ton of mobs. I know there’s a challenge. But what made that a challenge and what makes a hypothetical mordrem dungeon a challenge are two different things.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.
5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.
Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers
Are you even aware of what a Fractal scale 80 is even like? Mobs hit hard. VERY hard. Far harder than anything in a regular dungeon. FAR harder.
And when you’re avoiding everything anyway due to low mob attack speeds, how hard they hit is irrelevant.
Yes, you have to be careful to not pull the whole room on you, but I can easily see a run where you just don’t get hit at all if you have a couple thieves for stealthing the switches and bomb/door break rooms. Back then, you also had the “stand on the clown car wheel” trick where you literally never got attacked by a champ and a ton of mobs. I know there’s a challenge. But what made that a challenge and what makes a hypothetical mordrem dungeon a challenge are two different things.
I hope you also know that the amount of mobs in a fractal scale with the level of the fractal. There’s WAY more mobs in a current fotm 50 than there is in a fotm 1. So your “lol so slow hitting attacks” rebuttle is pretty much redundant, when there’s 40 mobs to deal with, when a single hit from any of those mobs pretty much downs you instantly. I’ve fought the mordrem before on full zerker classes. They’re not difficult.
In fairness Mordrem > low level fractal dredge. In terms of basic mechanics mordrem are better.
Warrior is the first to go down. This eliminates his/her banner and now if you’re down, you will most likely die.
Party member #3 starts to get low on health, so you try to control the boss with earth attunement and keep it away from that party member. You also use Water to heal that party member when you can. This gets that party member back up to full health, and if you play it right, you can control the boss with earth and air attunement while some of your party goes to res the warrior.
Actually warriors have tons of health, and typically would stay up much longer than the rest of the party. If anything, it’s usually eles who go down.
Also, banners don’t just disappear when the warrior who planted it goes down.
Are you sure you even play this game?
(edited by calyx.9086)
In fairness Mordrem > low level fractal dredge. In terms of basic mechanics mordrem are better.
In a low level fractal for sure. But an 80? Not a chance.
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.
5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.
Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers
Are you even aware of what a Fractal scale 80 is even like? Mobs hit hard. VERY hard. Far harder than anything in a regular dungeon. FAR harder.
And when you’re avoiding everything anyway due to low mob attack speeds, how hard they hit is irrelevant.
Yes, you have to be careful to not pull the whole room on you, but I can easily see a run where you just don’t get hit at all if you have a couple thieves for stealthing the switches and bomb/door break rooms. Back then, you also had the “stand on the clown car wheel” trick where you literally never got attacked by a champ and a ton of mobs. I know there’s a challenge. But what made that a challenge and what makes a hypothetical mordrem dungeon a challenge are two different things.
I hope you also know that the amount of mobs in a fractal scale with the level of the fractal. There’s WAY more mobs in a current fotm 50 than there is in a fotm 1. So your “lol so slow hitting attacks” rebuttle is pretty much redundant, when there’s 40 mobs to deal with, when a single hit from any of those mobs pretty much downs you instantly. I’ve fought the mordrem before on full zerker classes. They’re not difficult.
Apples to oranges. Dungeons are filled with elites, which very, very rarely have we seen on the Mordrem, and I’ve never seen more than one at a time. We’ve never seen Mordrem scaled to level 80 fractals either.
Careful pulling of the mobs does render their numbers pointless other than time. Sure, at fractal 80 those Dredge would hit stupid hard, but when you’re fighting 1-4 at a time, they still weren’t that difficult. Scorpion Wire is amazing for that purpose.
Better comparison: fight a group of Mordrem in Silverwastes, then fight a group of Dredge in Frostgorge Sound. The dredge will go down way faster with less difficulty.
Plus, I believe the numbers scaling with fractal level was added after Fractured release, so level 80 fractals had the same numbers of dredge as level 1 (since the number scaling happened after the cap dropped to 50).
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.
Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.
Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.
No, it would be all 5.
FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.
How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.
5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.
Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers
Are you even aware of what a Fractal scale 80 is even like? Mobs hit hard. VERY hard. Far harder than anything in a regular dungeon. FAR harder.
And when you’re avoiding everything anyway due to low mob attack speeds, how hard they hit is irrelevant.
Yes, you have to be careful to not pull the whole room on you, but I can easily see a run where you just don’t get hit at all if you have a couple thieves for stealthing the switches and bomb/door break rooms. Back then, you also had the “stand on the clown car wheel” trick where you literally never got attacked by a champ and a ton of mobs. I know there’s a challenge. But what made that a challenge and what makes a hypothetical mordrem dungeon a challenge are two different things.
I hope you also know that the amount of mobs in a fractal scale with the level of the fractal. There’s WAY more mobs in a current fotm 50 than there is in a fotm 1. So your “lol so slow hitting attacks” rebuttle is pretty much redundant, when there’s 40 mobs to deal with, when a single hit from any of those mobs pretty much downs you instantly. I’ve fought the mordrem before on full zerker classes. They’re not difficult.
Apples to oranges. Dungeons are filled with elites, which very, very rarely have we seen on the Mordrem, and I’ve never seen more than one at a time. We’ve never seen Mordrem scaled to level 80 fractals either.
Careful pulling of the mobs does render their numbers pointless other than time. Sure, at fractal 80 those Dredge would hit stupid hard, but when you’re fighting 1-4 at a time, they still weren’t that difficult. Scorpion Wire is amazing for that purpose.
Better comparison: fight a group of Mordrem in Silverwastes, then fight a group of Dredge in Frostgorge Sound. The dredge will go down way faster with less difficulty.
Elite or not, the base mechanics for mobs are always the same. The only difference is damage and health. Yeah, for sure, mordrem are far better mechanically than silly dredge. But that doesn’t mean they’re impossible. It just means people need to adapt to the situation differently, which can still be done using zerker meta builds.
I’m still quite confident that the meta for such a dungeon would include a condition build to manage the husks, menders, and leechers. Husks because even Zerkers do laughable damage to them, Menders and Leechers, because poison will drastically shorten the fight and right now the only dungeon meta build that even has poison is d/X thief. Unless I’m mistaken and engineers do actually use grenade kit in their meta build.
Those three enemy types are ones that currently have no parallel in any dungeon path. As such, I’m not sure the current dungeon meta will be the appropriate one when they’re introduced.
(edited by Drarnor Kunoram.5180)
Yeah, engineers use grenade kit in the general meta. It’s the best for stacking vuln. I’m currently levelling an engi right now (I have every class at 80 except for engi and necro, I won’t bother with necro but engi looks like a fun high APM class, as after 1450 hours on my ele low APM classes get real boring for me) and am currently at lv 51 with it.
The meta assassins engineer will be able to handle the husks, menders and leechers.
Again, blinding blades, blinds, Ice Storm. this is all you need to beat any trash in the game.
I know who I am, do you know who you are?
Hey guys, I’m not seeing much rhyme or reason in this discussion. so can you tell me as concisely as you can:
What is the Problem?
Why/How is it a Problem? and
What is your suggestion?
Hey guys, I’m not seeing much rhyme or reason in this discussion. so can you tell me as concisely as you can:
What is the Problem?
Why/How is it a Problem? and
What is your suggestion?
“The Problem” is that the most efficient team to run any dungeon is always pure glass cannon setups. Given the game’s focus on build variety and teamwork, this seems out of place. The most efficient group should be a mix of gear stats and builds.
My suggestion is to make mobs more like players. Faster attack speeds, kiting, evasion, boon use (Might, Stability, Retaliation Protection), boon stripping, condition use, condition removal, healing, etc. Newer mob types are already incorporating these elements, but aside from Aetherblades, none of them are in any dungeons.
I’ve started parties with “no stacking no LoS will aggro everything” like minded ppl will join and it will be a blast.
“Just be bad, you’ll enjoy it more.”
No, absolutely not.
Hey guys, I’m not seeing much rhyme or reason in this discussion. so can you tell me as concisely as you can:
What is the Problem?
Why/How is it a Problem? and
What is your suggestion?“The Problem” is that the most efficient team to run any dungeon is always pure glass cannon setups. Given the game’s focus on build variety and teamwork, this seems out of place. The most efficient group should be a mix of gear stats and builds.
My suggestion is to make mobs more like players. Faster attack speeds, kiting, evasion, boon use (Might, Stability, Retaliation Protection), boon stripping, condition use, condition removal, healing, etc. Newer mob types are already incorporating these elements, but aside from Aetherblades, none of them are in any dungeons.
Yes, and that other play styles are not well rewarded in GW2. It questionable as to whether pure healers and tanks should even be built…just not enough need. Due to the condition cap, condition users are extremely limited in the number that can be included in a group and ineffective against inanimate objects. So if I can’t use support and can’t use condition damage, I’m left with DD, and zerker is the most effective. The whole thing in GW2 is flawed from the ground up and pushes people to zerk by design..
Hey guys, I’m not seeing much rhyme or reason in this discussion. so can you tell me as concisely as you can:
What is the Problem?
Why/How is it a Problem? and
What is your suggestion?“The Problem” is that the most efficient team to run any dungeon is always pure glass cannon setups. Given the game’s focus on build variety and teamwork, this seems out of place. The most efficient group should be a mix of gear stats and builds.
My suggestion is to make mobs more like players. Faster attack speeds, kiting, evasion, boon use (Might, Stability, Retaliation Protection), boon stripping, condition use, condition removal, healing, etc. Newer mob types are already incorporating these elements, but aside from Aetherblades, none of them are in any dungeons.
I agree that those changes are nice and will bring more fun/engaging game-play and this should be the behavior of newer enemies (it’s good to see Anet slowly making it so too).
What should be the most efficient team? Regardless of whether or not the changes would accomplish this. I think that the most efficient team should be the team that is the most adaptable. I think that you may agree with me (unless your problem is with dps alone being supreme rather than the existence of there being a most efficient team setup). To this end I think that gear should not be very important and that traits and utilities should be most important since they are what allows us to adapt most easily (otherwise the most versatile gear setup would be the most efficient). I don’t know how this is possible unless all encounters, including trash mobs, are very hard because of an extreme version of one characteristic (one where CC is absolutely needed, another where dps is needed, another where survivability is needed etc.). This would make the most efficient setup change from fight to fight (it would be annoying unless they add templates and load-outs). It would also require knowledge to chose the correct build and skill to execute what is needed. It also goes against play how you want to play but i guess we can make an exemption for challenging content (like higher level dungeons).
The alternative to the zerker meta sounds incredibly inconvenient. The way it works now is that we have an optimal stat set that works well in every dungeon and fractal. Build variety comes from weapon choice, utilities, and traits, allowing us to change up our build on the fly between each encounter. Why would you want your role to be tied to gear? That sounds like a step backwards and would just mean carrying more equipment sets around in your inventory.
Honestly, I don’t even have a problem with the most efficient team for a dungeon being pure glass cannon DPS race. I have an issue with every dungeon filling that description.
It would also require knowledge to chose the correct build and skill to execute what is needed. It also goes against play how you want to play but i guess we can make an exemption for challenging content (like higher level dungeons).
I suggested a while back in another thread that to fix much of the imbalance between CD/DD/support players that only dungeons, champions and world events would need to be reworked. While not a small feat, certainly much easier than reworking the entire thing from the ground up. Allow healing ticks and boon/condition add/cleanse actions count toward the goal final, not just DPS. Personal condition stacks for CD users. But only do all these things for larger events and more difficult content. It would make a world of difference for those who don’t like to play DD and would hardly affect DD uses at all.
(edited by Leamas.5803)
Honestly, I don’t even have a problem with the most efficient team for a dungeon being pure glass cannon DPS race. I have an issue with every dungeon filling that description.
Randomly generated dungeon maps would resolve much of this…no preset place to stack, no memorizing paths. I’d personally find this enjoyable, though I’d venture it would cause most dungeons to become quite abandoned since they’d always be much more challenging.
Honestly, I don’t even have a problem with the most efficient team for a dungeon being pure glass cannon DPS race. I have an issue with every dungeon filling that description.
Randomly generated dungeon maps would resolve much of this…no preset place to stack, no memorizing paths. I’d personally find this enjoyable, though I’d venture it would cause most dungeons to become quite abandoned since they’d always be much more challenging.
Have any other completely unrealistic ideas?
I know who I am, do you know who you are?