Guild Wars 2

InfernoHero.5687:

My issue is

this is what i was waiting for.
it is your issue. but this issue has absolutely nothing to do with the game or the meta.
the same counts for every other non existent issue that other people brought up in this thread.

NoTrigger.8396:

InfernoHero.5687:

My issue is

this is what i was waiting for.
it is your issue. but this issue has absolutely nothing to do with the game or the meta.
the same counts for every other non existent issue that other people brought up in this thread.

The meta was never the topic of this thread.

I really want all sorts of gear to be viable and optimal, not just Zerk.

So that in speedruns it become more efficient to have teams that have a variety of gear rather than everyone with full DPS. I would like to see organized group/pugs have a hard time with zerk gear so that it can actually be treated as a challenge. Wearing cleric shouldn’t make the run harder than wearing full zerk.

Challenge run → Full Zerk gear, a very great challenge even for organized group. Then these groups can wear their kitten with pride.

Speedrun → Requires a variance of gear, tactics and a team build compilation to work.

PuG run → Expect a variety of builds, group have to figure out what tactic they want to do.

Some DnT keyboard warrior might cry “Lupi, Lupi, Lupi” or “support,support,support!!!”

Lupi ain’t hard. Soloing him isn’t hard either after the first few times. Support in this game isn’t very deep at all. Reflect and condi removal are the only major ones needed while other support skills are very minor.

Someone might ask, Show me your “Speedclear videos!!11!!” I don’t care about getting 2 minutes in a CM dungeon. It doesn’t really mean anything except how much dps your group have and how much your team can skip the dungeon.

Can this be possible?

I believe yes. In PvP, A variety of gear for different build is made over there instead of everyone being full Zerk. If ANet studies and research what AI could be added, what tactic can be implemented, we can see variety.

ANet can research simply by using dungeon tactics in a PvP deathmatch. 5 players stack in a corner to see how the other 5 players react. See how good players react, see how bad players react, get data on all sorts of players. Then understand what makes players different from current mobs, what is the limit to adding the AI.

To the OP, Getting a perfect world without zerks is going to be really hard and time consuming for the devs. Is ANet’s time worth it? It is also going to make the game harder for you too, that is the undeniable truth.

runeblade.7514:

To the OP, Getting a perfect world without zerks is going to be really hard and time consuming for the devs. Is ANet’s time worth it? It is also going to make the game harder for you too, that is the undeniable truth.

I absolutely DO NOT want a game without Bezerkers gear or builds.

Zerk gear, Damage builds, and the meta support a style of gameplay that appeals to many. Removing this would harm the game a lot, and no one should want to take away another person’s enjoyment.

runeblade.7514:

Support in this game isn’t very deep at all. Reflect and condi removal are the only major ones needed while other support skills are very minor.

runeblade.7514:

Wearing cleric shouldn’t make the run harder than wearing full zerk.

comedy gold

banners, vulnerability, might, fury, protection, stability, aegis, swiftness, spotter, frost spirit, regeneration, EA, blinds, quickness, stealth, projectile absorbs, conjured weapons such as icebow to cc a boss, blast finisher, combo fields ……..

all of that is very minor?
ever did fractals 50+ without all of that?

and who is the troll when you basically say wearing clerics makes a run harder than wearing full “zerk” ?

thats why its comedy gold. because your assumptions are so far away from reality its actually funny.

SKATE.1394:

I know you’re not here complaining just because seeing “zerk only” in an lfg gets your b-hole all tight even though you still avoid joining such groups, the only reason you’d be starting yet another one of these threads for the thousandth time is if you’re “that guy”, and people are still noticing.

I have stated the point of this thread multiple times throughout my posts. I’d excuse you missing them if I did not also put a TL;DR right at the top of the OP.

Here are such posts:

InfernoHero.5687:

I absolutely DO NOT want a game without Bezerkers gear or builds.

Zerk gear, Damage builds, and the meta support a style of gameplay that appeals to many. Removing this would harm the game a lot, and no one should want to take away another person’s enjoyment.

InfernoHero.5687:

The meta was never the topic of this thread.

InfernoHero.5687:

I am fine with everyone doing whatever they like doing. As long as they are enjoying the game, I am perfectly happy.

My issue is when the meta build or ANY build is pushed onto someone.

InfernoHero.5687:

Izaya.2906:

As for your opening post, yea, its a no brainer that you can do whatever you want in this or any other game.

Only important thing is that you mustn’t forget to always respect other people’s preferences/play style when they communicate it clearly in the LFG description or party chat when you join if you want your playing experience to be smooth.

This. All of this.

You are awesome.

And this was in the OP:

This argument also falls apart when you realize that this new player isn’t joining any full zerker LFG listings.

I have constantly argued AGAINST non-zerkers joining zerk-only LFG listings.

EVERYONE deserves to have the game they want. I love the fact that speedrunning is a thing for those that enjoying that type of gameplay. My concern is when that style of gameplay is forced on others.

Zerker gear belongs in PvE, Soldiers in WvW, Spvp doesn’t have armor to start with and condi’s are only used in PvP/WvW roaming and Triple trouble runs.

Non-zerkers shouldn’t join zerkers, and at the same time speedrunners don’t have to act like they know everything.

It is so fun to see an LFG for a full zerk AC run 5K Ap+ 4 Warriors and 1 ele……

runeblade.7514:

I really want all sorts of gear to be viable and optimal, not just Zerk.

Are you 100% sure that you know what the words “viable” and “optimal” mean? Because that sentence does not make sense.

Most of the stat-combinations are viable and only one can be optimal in any given situation.

InfernoHero.5687:

EVERYONE deserves to have the game they want. I love the fact that speedrunning is a thing for those that enjoying that type of gameplay. My concern is when that style of gameplay is forced on others.

I dont understand. Who is forcing it on people? A LFG requirement doesnt count. Nor does advice.

Exeon.4358:

Zerker gear belongs in PvE, Soldiers in WvW

No, sorry, some classes/builds do way better with zerker in wvw – this game isn’t that simple.

Nobody is forcing anyone to play full berserker, it’s just the most optimal gear. Just about every single thing in the game can be completed using any combination of gear and weapons. If you want to play a different build, there are plenty of people willing to play with you using the LFG tool or playing with guildies/friends.

My lfg is pretty good.

Lfm zerker only, ping gear (no potatoes please)

I’m sick of that anti potato elitist. I started the game playing a french fry, and I got insulted for that. Now, everytime I open a lfg, I only see “no potatoes” lfg. I’m sick of this flawed design. The anti potatoes elitists are enforcing their gameplay on others. Playing without potato is bypassing the game content, and not playing it how it’s mean to be played.

Sincerely, a chips.

(Am I doing it right?)

A commander once told me that while everybody else on our server was a potato I was none. That saddens me. I love potatoes.

illegal picta sis. you must read COC with concentrat

NoTrigger.8396:

illegal picta sis. you must read COC with concentrat

Many CoC later I em educate neow

Katary.7096:

Most of the stat-combinations are viable and only one can be optimal in any given situation.

This is true. However, what if the optimal situation for gear set A and the optimal situation for gear set B were in the same dungeon path, each taking equal proportions of the run? Do you go purely with gear A, purely with gear B, a mix of the two, or go gear set C which isn’t optimal, but performs all right in both situations? Actually swapping armor takes some time, so I doubt you would see speed runners taking two separate sets of armor and choose one of the four options I listed above. Swapping opportunities are dependent on the dungeon design itself, though.

Right now, in all dungeons, all paths, the optimal gear set is Zerker for a very significant majority of the path. What if, on a new dungeon path, that got changed?

J Eberle.9312:

NoTrigger.8396:

illegal picta sis. you must read COC with concentrat

Many CoC later I em educate neow

i laf at yu zerks j eberle oxtred not rigger. u slats and the rest of ur gild is very verbal abusing. you talk about CoC but i dont tink u reed it

dlonie.6547:

J Eberle.9312:

NoTrigger.8396:

illegal picta sis. you must read COC with concentrat

Many CoC later I em educate neow

i laf at yu zerks j eberle oxtred not rigger. u slats and the rest of ur gild is very verbal abusing. you talk about CoC but i dont tink u reed it

report for tring to be genius.

I have a headache after reading most of the responses from this thread now ;_;

To me, “efficiency” of berserker/assassin gear is a nice bonus.
I like to go for berserker/assassin in pve (especially in high level fractals), because it makes me pay more attention to boss animations, mechanics, and in general forces me to watch my back. Which, as a result makes me a better player in every aspect of the game.

Of course, berserker and assassin should not be the be-all and end-all of PvE, but if your group asks you to have it, either switch the group or honor their request.

NoTrigger.8396:

InfernoHero.5687:

But I have fun with my build and my gear. Why do you have a problem with that?

i never said i have a problem with that. im glad you are enjoying the game.
the only problem i have are people who want to destroy my playstyle because they dont understand the game and insist that their play how you want builds become meta. thats all.

again, why do people want to ruin my playstyle when i dont want to ruin theirs? i couldnt care less if someone runs pvt gear. i dont care about what other people do as long as it doesnt harm me.

thats why i dont understand why some people care so much about my playstyle being ruined.

and non-zerker who join zerker only lfgs and get kicked deserve the kick.
when people are too stupid to read lfg descriptions its their problem.
lfg descriptions are there for a reason.

InfernoHero.5687:

LFG listing and attempt to kick people for not using Zerkers, and those that think Zerkers is the only true way to play the game ARE a real issue and have the potential to push new players away from the game.

thats not a problem of gear, stats, the game.
its not arenanets job to change how some people act or what some people think.
and its not arenanets job to change the game because life is hard.

Note you are being condescending in stating that not playing the way you prefer is not “understanding the game”. You’ve stated it many times over, as if your chosen way of playing GW2, being the most theoretically efficient, is the “correct” way of playing GW2. Thus, you are not being entirely “fair” stating that people are “right” to play whichever way they want (“as long as they don’t get in my way”) when you are ALSO indicating that playing in a way that is not the most efficient means they are not “understanding” how GW2 “works”.

Some people understand GW2 very well, but prefer to play in a way opposite to yours.

Hope you can catch the irony of your own comments.

(And the above has NOTHING to do with wanting Soldier’s to kill as fast as Berserker’s-or become “the meta”-if that’s going to be your argument. I personally rarely ever follow metas anyway, so why should I want my builds to become “meta”?)

If many “elite” players were less condescending rather than acting as en enlightened, “noble” (due to “superior skills”) entity, “general” people would probable dislike them less. I myself have nothing against speedclears or efficient play, but clearly putting down others/being condescending (and ultimately, a sense of artificial superiority) by any side, “elite” or not, is supremely off-putting. It’s a silly bravado that many don’t care for, and not worth bullying others about (“terribad” build", "let me teach you how “the game works”, ugh)

(Stating that all Berserker’s and meta following players are arrogant fools is equally folly, to be sure, and is not what’s being indicated above.)

“not understanding the game” is not aimed at people who play other builds because thats what they enjoy and its not my intention to trashtalk them or hurt their feelings.
but my statement is directly aimed at the people who still believe 3 things that you can see over and over again in threads like this.

first of all many still believe that facetanking stuff is much more difficult and challenging to do than playing full class canon. this logic, if you can even call it logic, has been proven wrong multiple times with videos and other stuff. passive damage mitigation and healing gear is so ridiculously overpowered that you can basically ignore the intention behind the combat system, how it was built and yet succeed.

then you have the group of people who say
“Using full zerker damage builds locks you into playing one thing: Auto Attack the game. All you ever need to do is auto attack, dodge a bit, and then auto attack some more. It takes away any semblance of what class you are. You never need to use your heal skills. You never need to use your utility skills”.
and then it turns out that the experience they speak from is ONE hour in orr.
(no offense to you OP, you are a good guy, but this is a good example)

then there is another type of player who still thinks, and even make it seem like a fact, that full class canon groups do not use any support.
everyone who is smart enough to add 1 and 1 together will realize that this is simply a misbelief and berserker builds sacrifice dps to provide as much support as possible.
apart from that every meta build offers more support than most “play how you want” builds.

what most of the people who think what i listed above to this day dont want to realize or simply refuse to realize is that the game was built in a way to reward high risk and skillful play rather than eating hits for whatever the reason is.

most of those people (im not saying all) would do literally everything to take skillful play and high risk builds out of the game just so their new playstyle becomes meta or that they will be accepted in every single LFG group because of entitlement.

now tell me please, that i am wrong when i tell such a player “you probably dont understand the game”

and just for your info, i have never kicked any single player who did not use a meta build out of my groups. never. even if i would have been faster soloing the dungeon. instead i carried them through dungeons and tried to teach them stuff they didnt know.
when i want to pug and play 1 vs 5 (me vs 4 players + a boss) i even advertise my group with “lfm arah p x”, and everyone is welcome.
often enough i have even flamed some of my friends in teamspeak when they kicked people out of our groups because they had one knights piece in their berserker set.

there should be a witch-hunt for filthy berserker elitists like me.

Star Ace.5207:

NoTrigger.8396:

the only problem i have are people who want to destroy my playstyle because they dont understand the game and insist that their play how you want builds become meta. thats all.

Note you are being condescending in stating that not playing the way you prefer is not “understanding the game”.

The way I read the statement, NoTrigger is not saying (at least in this post) what you are attributing to him. He’s saying that those who want other builds to replace glass cannon as meta do not understand the game. And, he’s correct, at least in some cases.

Meta builds in every MMO are always about optimum results. This always means maximum damage, with the only exceptions — in other games — being “required” tanks, healers or CC (if you want to look that far back). Glass cannons always do the most damage. There is an opportunity cost to going all-in damage. That’s true in GW2 and also in most games.

In GW2, there are no required roles, so no required healers, and no required tanks. Different players may sacrifice some portion of their personal DPs to provide party buffs (like warriors with Empower Allies and Phalanx Strength), or by taking defensive utilities on a per-encounter basis, but that’s it. Those who want other builds to be part of the meta either don’t understand the way GW2 is designed, or understand it, but reject that fundamental design, preferring a return to designated roles.

Nick.6972:

Why would you want to play AC P1 “slowly” if you’ve already done it 1000 times before?

Because they didn’t do it. One run per week and they are experienced and know everything about the game ya know.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Actually swapping armor takes some time, so I doubt you would see speed runners taking two separate sets of armor and choose one of the four options I listed above. Swapping opportunities are dependent on the dungeon design itself, though.

Actually it happened in one of the most recent records on a mesmer. Arah? I dunno. A set with centaur runes are great for mesmers to run around as well a assasin’s and berserker’s set for different encounters. The rest of the classes are fine with one set. Maybe guardians can stick to knight’s sometimes.

Dalanor.5387:

Maybe guardians can stick to knight’s sometimes.

I’m actually gearing up my guardian in Knights armor now. I’ve had him in soldier’s gear with an AH build for almost two years, so I figure it’s time to change him up.

1. Greatsword is so much fun.
2. I have more damage, but the toughness protects what is now a low HP.
3. 10% of that toughness goes to Precision, so even more damage.
4. I didn’t think this at first, but meditations are a little better than shouts.

Something to take into consideration is how close the scales between damage outputs actually are. For this comparison, I’ll use a 6/6/2/0/0 thief build in exotic gear, and compare the effective power of both.

Full Zerker: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThRDwAP3fIhSweK/ep+DIdPAM/BA-e

Full Soldier:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThxDwAN3f4juHeK/cp+DClgAM/BA-e

Zerker has 2584 power, 60% crit chance and 2.23 crit damage, comes to 4491 effective power.
Soldier has 2524 Power, 34% crit chance and 1.77 crit damage, comes to 3185 effective power.

In raw stats alone, zerker only does 41% more damage than soldiers. Now, factoring Keen Eye (5% crit rate), 1/3rd fury uptime (6.7% crit chance), revealed training (+200 power). we’ll get 5250 effective power for zerkers, 3689 effective power for soldiers, and a total difference of… 42%.

Go for broke (full might, banners, food, perma fury, swap trait to flanking strikes, Empower Allies, Spotter), you’ll get 11090 EP for zerkers, 8265 effective power for Soldiers, which comes to a 34% difference in effective power.

This is one of the design decision Anet made early on: to prevent hard tank/heal/other classes from forming, gear and stats were designed in such a way that the relative scale between two extremes wasn’t that far. I’ve come from previous games where the scales in effective health and effective power can be an order of magnitude different between classes. I imagine other people are coming from those games, too, which is why some players consider anything but zerk to be leeching. If everything else is equal, if a dungeon run has a full minute of combat in full zerker gear, then full soldier gear will only add 25 seconds to the run time.

Build and tactics are far more important than gear. Enforcing gear diversity is an issue, but it isn’t an extremely big one, which is why Anet hasn’t devoted too much time to fixing old content for it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Something to take into consideration is how close the scales between damage outputs actually are. For this comparison, I’ll use a 6/6/2/0/0 thief build in exotic gear, and compare the effective power of both.

Full Zerker: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThRDwAP3fIhSweK/ep+DIdPAM/BA-e

Full Soldier:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThxDwAN3f4juHeK/cp+DClgAM/BA-e

Zerker has 2584 power, 60% crit chance and 2.23 crit damage, comes to 4491 effective power.
Soldier has 2524 Power, 34% crit chance and 1.77 crit damage, comes to 3185 effective power.

In raw stats alone, zerker only does 41% more damage than soldiers. Now, factoring Keen Eye (5% crit rate), 1/3rd fury uptime (6.7% crit chance), revealed training (+200 power). we’ll get 5250 effective power for zerkers, 3689 effective power for soldiers, and a total difference of… 42%.

Go for broke (full might, banners, food, perma fury, swap trait to flanking strikes, Empower Allies, Spotter), you’ll get 11090 EP for zerkers, 8265 effective power for Soldiers, which comes to a 34% difference in effective power.

This is one of the design decision Anet made early on: to prevent hard tank/heal/other classes from forming, gear and stats were designed in such a way that the relative scale between two extremes wasn’t that far. I’ve come from previous games where the scales in effective health and effective power can be an order of magnitude different between classes. I imagine other people are coming from those games, too, which is why some players consider anything but zerk to be leeching. If everything else is equal, if a dungeon run has a full minute of combat in full zerker gear, then full soldier gear will only add 25 seconds to the run time.

Build and tactics are far more important than gear. Enforcing gear diversity is an issue, but it isn’t an extremely big one, which is why Anet hasn’t devoted too much time to fixing old content for it.

That’s…

Wow…

I’ve never actually seen the math behind gear like this, and it’s awesome to actually see it put in simple terms.

But I do have two questions:

1. Does your math factor in crit damage as well as crit chance?
2. If this math is true, then why is everyone so bent out of shape over a few seconds?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Star Ace.5207:

NoTrigger.8396:

the only problem i have are people who want to destroy my playstyle because they dont understand the game and insist that their play how you want builds become meta. thats all.

Note you are being condescending in stating that not playing the way you prefer is not “understanding the game”.

The way I read the statement, NoTrigger is not saying (at least in this post) what you are attributing to him. He’s saying that those who want other builds to replace glass cannon as meta do not understand the game. And, he’s correct, at least in some cases.

Meta builds in every MMO are always about optimum results. This always means maximum damage, with the only exceptions — in other games — being “required” tanks, healers or CC (if you want to look that far back). Glass cannons always do the most damage. There is an opportunity cost to going all-in damage. That’s true in GW2 and also in most games.

In GW2, there are no required roles, so no required healers, and no required tanks. Different players may sacrifice some portion of their personal DPs to provide party buffs (like warriors with Empower Allies and Phalanx Strength), or by taking defensive utilities on a per-encounter basis, but that’s it. Those who want other builds to be part of the meta either don’t understand the way GW2 is designed, or understand it, but reject that fundamental design, preferring a return to designated roles.

Do understand that no trinity doesn’t mean that DPS roles are thus king. Just means that no one role is really required-including exclusively “DPSer” characters. The whole no trinity means only DPS matters thing is a common myth that not even ANet developer’s believe in. Yes, there are no “DPSers” in this game, all said and done, because even Berserker’s fire staff Elementalists can heal themselves, dodge, and support the party, albeit in a limited fashion. Finally, gear is not tied to skill, which needs no further argument. It’s horrible to tell a player he she is “bad” for “relying” on “passive stats” (which even developers use on PvE content), which implies that ultimately skill means absolute “non passive” stats on your builds that reward “active play.” Again, nowhere has it ever been stated by ANet that “passive stats” are “training wheels” for playing GW2 “properly” (“skillfully”, as if no other playstyle involved any skill) through “active play” (no defensive stats implying “maximum skill”.) Full DPS is but one of the options, but not the “only role” to fulfill, as basically each character fulfills every role in this game.

In short, your first sentence should read (no offense intended): “In GW2, there are no required roles, so no required healers, no required tanks, and no required DPSers.” Most people have always preferred DPS roles for one reason or the other (note that saying “it’s just more fun” is relative to the player), but it doesn’t make it the “only role left” in GW2, as there are, like you said, no roles actually “needed”.

And again, I in no way or fashion advocate that non-max DPS builds become metas. Have one “DPS” character, but most of the time go for a combination of what’s fun to me, truly fulfilling not one single “role”, which is the way I enjoy GW2 the most and I feel (IMHO) what the developer’s were aiming for (certainly not full DPS gear for 100% of players; otherwise “no skill.”) There’s nothing wrong with Berserker’s or Nomad’s, as those will fulfill a different player’s need, meta or not (which probably I think we agree with.)

Metas are fine, just don’t make it “the norm”, “right way to play”, or be a jerk towards others for not following it (this is not aimed at you, however.) Not every runner in this world runs marathons, nor must they do so in order to be “tr00 runner”. I do understand why organized, offensive stat only geared player groups are more efficient, but 100% of the players don’t necessarily prefer to play that way (which honestly doesn’t mean they have “less skill”, as Drakkar, I believe, has already pointed out.)

(What people usually really take offense with is arrogance and attitudes, in my strong opinion. Talking down to others is rarely a way to convince/change anyone’s viewpoint.)

I will add: since I never tell you “how to play” (nor I care about it, as it’s your choice how you choose to enjoy the game), you shouldn’t tell me “how to play”. Play your “Zerk”, I’ll play my “whatever”. Just don’t play with people your playstyle may not be compatible with, without putting them or their builds down.

And my apologies to NoTrigger, I honestly thought he believed that not playing efficiently meant “playing GW2 wrong”. Will never agree that “passive stats” means “bad at PvE” however-it just means “not meta”, not “terribad.”

Painbow.6059:

InfernoHero.5687:

Painbow.6059:

InfernoHero.5687:

Dalanor.5387:

Maybe guardians can stick to knight’s sometimes.

I’m actually gearing up my guardian in Knights armor now. I’ve had him in soldier’s gear with an AH build for almost two years, so I figure it’s time to change him up.

1. Greatsword is so much fun.
2. I have more damage, but the toughness protects what is now a low HP.
3. 10% of that toughness goes to Precision, so even more damage.
4. I didn’t think this at first, but meditations are a little better than shouts.

If you plan on using that in pve you may as well stay at the entrance and just leech the whole path

And this is what I’m talking about. This right here is the purpose of this thread.

It’s because being useless is selfish on everyone else in your group, if you want to be useless you can but don’t expect to get into any zerker parties

This is the kind of elitist “jerk” reaction I was referring to, which most people will take offense for. Calling non-meta players “useless” and “selfish” JUST because it isn’t meta. They shouldn’t go in to a “Zerk” party, but it ISN’T USELESS to that player. Don’t be a bully like the poster above.

InfernoHero.5687:

2. If this math is true, then why is everyone so bent out of shape over a few seconds?

Simple math.

suboptimal gear + suboptimal builds + suboptimal tactics =/= few seconds

Dead men deal no damage

Apolo.5942:

Dead men deal no damage

Neither dead enemies.

InfernoHero.5687:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Something to take into consideration is how close the scales between damage outputs actually are. For this comparison, I’ll use a 6/6/2/0/0 thief build in exotic gear, and compare the effective power of both.

Full Zerker: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThRDwAP3fIhSweK/ep+DIdPAM/BA-e

Full Soldier:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThxDwAN3f4juHeK/cp+DClgAM/BA-e

Zerker has 2584 power, 60% crit chance and 2.23 crit damage, comes to 4491 effective power.
Soldier has 2524 Power, 34% crit chance and 1.77 crit damage, comes to 3185 effective power.

In raw stats alone, zerker only does 41% more damage than soldiers. Now, factoring Keen Eye (5% crit rate), 1/3rd fury uptime (6.7% crit chance), revealed training (+200 power). we’ll get 5250 effective power for zerkers, 3689 effective power for soldiers, and a total difference of… 42%.

Go for broke (full might, banners, food, perma fury, swap trait to flanking strikes, Empower Allies, Spotter), you’ll get 11090 EP for zerkers, 8265 effective power for Soldiers, which comes to a 34% difference in effective power.

This is one of the design decision Anet made early on: to prevent hard tank/heal/other classes from forming, gear and stats were designed in such a way that the relative scale between two extremes wasn’t that far. I’ve come from previous games where the scales in effective health and effective power can be an order of magnitude different between classes. I imagine other people are coming from those games, too, which is why some players consider anything but zerk to be leeching. If everything else is equal, if a dungeon run has a full minute of combat in full zerker gear, then full soldier gear will only add 25 seconds to the run time.

Build and tactics are far more important than gear. Enforcing gear diversity is an issue, but it isn’t an extremely big one, which is why Anet hasn’t devoted too much time to fixing old content for it.

That’s…

Wow…

I’ve never actually seen the math behind gear like this, and it’s awesome to actually see it put in simple terms.

But I do have two questions:

1. Does your math factor in crit damage as well as crit chance?
2. If this math is true, then why is everyone so bent out of shape over a few seconds?

1) The math is right, and apply to most classes with various degrees.
2) Because believe it or not, some people play for the challenge of being squishy and the satisfaction of completing content fast with proper team support.

InfernoHero.5687:

2. If this math is true, then why is everyone so bent out of shape over a few seconds?

Because it’s not about those few seconds but rather about what those few seconds stand for.

Having the right meta build and gear is more of a signaling system where players are basically saying " I care enough about the game to run what’s most effective" so chances are that player isn’t going to suck.

Non-meta players are more of a mixed bag – if they’re not running meta one can only guess at what their intentions and way of playing are. Or what their experience level is.

If they are running meta it means there’s a higher chance the person has experience with the encounter and their class because it’s an indication of a certain mindset.

It’s more about avoiding bad players than anything else.

Reminds me of those Warriors in Guild Wars 1 who played Meteor Shower.
Made no sense whatsoever.

Or Rangers with pet skills but no Pet.
“But it’s fun!”
How is taking absolutely useless skills you literally can’t activate “fun”?

I doubt many people wearing pvt gear are otherwise running the same weapons/skills/traits/sigils/runes/nourishment as the meta build. If someone happens to do so however, then yes the difference between zerker and soldier is not a tremendous difference for groups not trying to get the speedrun record. Should be noted though that the “elitists” in this thread never said that zerker gear made the biggest difference, but rather the traits/skills you have along with how good of a player you are. Zerker gear just goes well with that since if you are running an otherwise optimal build and can play well, you should trade the unnecessary passive defense for more damage.

its rather amusing how the videos were ignored. how its “only” a few seconds.

I aughto post my solo times vs a berserkers solo times. totally have been reading time wrong all these years.

That being said I love that these “i never said to join zerker group” never say anything about connception or whatever his name is. He hops in and aligns himself with them and then basically says he ignores lfg’s but they still go on about the bad meta people.

I mean I read the whole thread and not a single “berserker” has said anything other than respect the lfg or kick regardless of what is put. (essentially) and are “harrassed” whilst conception gets a free pass. it reeks of hypocrisy. and i cant be the only one to notice it.

I’ll take zealot over zerker any day. I can give up less than a fifth of DPS that I might be able to do in exchange for almost double the healing I can always do.

I notice in the wiki they note a Forsaken prefix that is Power/Tough/Heal, that would be my dream combo right there,. but I can’t find anything more and don’t think I have ever seen it in game. Anyone know what that is about? Is it just an anomoly from the forsaken halls or something?

I like people who offer their opinions all the time – they are funny. I especially like how they remain so serious pretending to think we care.

“I don’t want people to tell me how to play, so I’m going to tell them how to play” is what I’ve got from this thread.

The irony of it all is if you don’t want people to call you useless for the choices you make, don’t start a topic setting yourself up for it. Avoid groups that want to play the way they want, and find players that think like yourself. This is an issue people have forced upon themselves, don’t act like victims when the non-zerker side is just as toxic.

InfernoHero.5687:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Something to take into consideration is how close the scales between damage outputs actually are. For this comparison, I’ll use a 6/6/2/0/0 thief build in exotic gear, and compare the effective power of both.

Full Zerker: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThRDwAP3fIhSweK/ep+DIdPAM/BA-e

Full Soldier:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAV4Yl8Mp6pFOxxJ0PNRLRtdIEdfAXzg2PQAEiA-ThxDwAN3f4juHeK/cp+DClgAM/BA-e

Zerker has 2584 power, 60% crit chance and 2.23 crit damage, comes to 4491 effective power.
Soldier has 2524 Power, 34% crit chance and 1.77 crit damage, comes to 3185 effective power.

In raw stats alone, zerker only does 41% more damage than soldiers. Now, factoring Keen Eye (5% crit rate), 1/3rd fury uptime (6.7% crit chance), revealed training (+200 power). we’ll get 5250 effective power for zerkers, 3689 effective power for soldiers, and a total difference of… 42%.

Go for broke (full might, banners, food, perma fury, swap trait to flanking strikes, Empower Allies, Spotter), you’ll get 11090 EP for zerkers, 8265 effective power for Soldiers, which comes to a 34% difference in effective power.

This is one of the design decision Anet made early on: to prevent hard tank/heal/other classes from forming, gear and stats were designed in such a way that the relative scale between two extremes wasn’t that far. I’ve come from previous games where the scales in effective health and effective power can be an order of magnitude different between classes. I imagine other people are coming from those games, too, which is why some players consider anything but zerk to be leeching. If everything else is equal, if a dungeon run has a full minute of combat in full zerker gear, then full soldier gear will only add 25 seconds to the run time.

Build and tactics are far more important than gear. Enforcing gear diversity is an issue, but it isn’t an extremely big one, which is why Anet hasn’t devoted too much time to fixing old content for it.

That’s…

Wow…

I’ve never actually seen the math behind gear like this, and it’s awesome to actually see it put in simple terms.

But I do have two questions:

1. Does your math factor in crit damage as well as crit chance?
2. If this math is true, then why is everyone so bent out of shape over a few seconds?

Well the assumption is " If everything else is equal", but it normally is not.

Gear, weapon, utility choices usually tie in together. If you see a ranger running 3 signets except SoTW there is a very high chance he doesn’t have a clue how to play the class effectively. If you see a guardian only pressing 1 on his staff for the whole dungeon you can make the same decision. You aren’t 100% sure but the chances are high.

Moving on to gear choice, the same thing applies, if you see someone running clerics, rabid, soldier etc. the chances of him running traits to hit those damage modifiers plummets too(in the end, we can only guess what someone is running but the least we can do is improve the chances).

Everything adds up, those “few seconds” per combat adds up to a few minutes in path. Those few minutes in a path can add up to an hour or more if you’re running 15-19+ paths in your tour.

Star Ace.5207:

Again, nowhere has it ever been stated by ANet that “passive stats” are "training wheels.

Not precisely. However, Robert Hrouda at one point when he was still dungeon lead posted that he envisioned the faster kill times of glass set-ups as a reward for knowledge, skill and coordination in dungeons. I’d find it but search works so well and I don’t have all day to go through the Dev tracker. Since that is what in fact happens, I’ll go out on a limb and say it is intended.

Star Ace.5207:

In short, your first sentence should read (no offense intended): “In GW2, there are no required roles, so no required healers, no required tanks, and no required DPSers.”

Change that to no required optimum DPS, maybe. After all, if there’s no DPS, the mobs don’t die.

What it boils down to is efficiency play and laissez faire play don’t mix well because the two demographics are not after the same thing. They should stay separate.

My sympathies tend to run to the efficiency crowd, though. Why? An efficiency player cannot achieve what s/he wants (max efficiency content clear) by joining anything goes groups. However, a laissez faire player could achieve what s/he wants (content clear while playing how s/he wants) by joining an efficiency group. This suggests to me that there is more motivation for marginal players to try to squeak by in glass-only groups than there is for top tier players to get into “other” groups. In fact, “glass” players who join anything goes groups and then complain about efficiency are probably pseudo-glass, because players who really understand the game know not to expect efficiency in such group comps.

InfernoHero.5687:

2. If this math is true, then why is everyone so bent out of shape over a few seconds?

Both compared sets are primary power. They are not on opposite ends of the scale. In fact, you could say the are very close to each other – and yet there is already such difference. Try to compare Zerker to other stat sets as well.

Astralporing.1957:

InfernoHero.5687:

2. If this math is true, then why is everyone so bent out of shape over a few seconds?

Both compared sets are primary power. They are not on opposite ends of the scale. In fact, you could say the are very close to each other – and yet there is already such difference. Try to compare Zerker to other stat sets as well.

But you can’t really compare sets like Rabid and zerkers or Cleric’s and zerkers simply because they serve a different role.

You would end up calculating the DPS of a DOT gear and a healing gear.

Soldier’s and zerkers are at opposite ends of the power spectrum.

Nah. Nomad and Berserker are opposites.

My guardian is a full knight and with exception of 2 times only, both chars were tanky necros, he never fails to get aggro. I like the aspect that I have to hold my own with a target on my character’s head. Besides that, he have a decent crit chance and damage, but not optimal of course. For WvW my guardian uses soldier’s gear with trooper runes and usually he is the link, the tank, in the party bringing heals, protection and cleanse.

My warrior run a full zerker gear with strength runes but rather tanky traits, his comp is focused on party buffs: Empower Allies, Forceful Greatsword and Phalax Strength. That will give the party pretty much fury and might uptime and allow the other members to go with full DPS on their own.

My elementalist uses d/d and have full zerker gear as well. Air specialist with 4 points in Arcana for faster attunement and 4 points in Water for condition cleanse.

My necromancer use Rabid gear and is traited for maximum condition. However, I can’t use him on any party, unless the players aren’t worried about efficiency or time and just want to kill things while chatting.

I have other classes as well but will only cite those four and say that between them, I like my elementalist the most. I take him to run new content, to solo new things with him and have a ‘feel’ of how hard or easy they can be and how long it will take me to complete the tasks, events. The silverwastes is a good map for me to work on my skills, specially when engage several creeps, when 2 hits from them, if I am not paying attention, is more than enough to down my ele.

When I want a relaxed dungeon run, I use my guardian; when I want a speed run, I use my warrior; and when I want a bit of challenge, I use my elementalist.

When someone ask on map chat which gear they should use or which is the most efficient, I simply explain the current meta, since they will have to know when decide to use the LFG tool, and then ask which is their play style. According to their answer, I point to the gear which they would feel better, comfortable, playing.

It should be simple as that. This is a game and everyone have a sort of different definition of what is fun. Find out which one is yours and try to stick with like minded for better quality of life.

azyume.6321:

My guardian is a full knight and with exception of 2 times only, both chars were tanky necros, he never fails to get aggro. I like the aspect that I have to hold my own with a target on my character’s head. Besides that, he have a decent crit chance and damage, but not optimal of course. For WvW my guardian uses soldier’s gear with trooper runes and usually he is the link, the tank, in the party bringing heals, protection and cleanse.

My warrior run a full zerker gear with strength runes but rather tanky traits, his comp is focused on party buffs: Empower Allies, Forceful Greatsword and Phalax Strength. That will give the party pretty much fury and might uptime and allow the other members to go with full DPS on their own.

My elementalist uses d/d and have full zerker gear as well. Air specialist with 4 points in Arcana for faster attunement and 4 points in Water for condition cleanse.

My necromancer use Rabid gear and is traited for maximum condition. However, I can’t use him on any party, unless the players aren’t worried about efficiency or time and just want to kill things while chatting.

I have other classes as well but will only cite those four and say that between them, I like my elementalist the most. I take him to run new content, to solo new things with him and have a ‘feel’ of how hard or easy they can be and how long it will take me to complete the tasks, events. The silverwastes is a good map for me to work on my skills, specially when engage several creeps, when 2 hits from them, if I am not paying attention, is more than enough to down my ele.

When I want a relaxed dungeon run, I use my guardian; when I want a speed run, I use my warrior; and when I want a bit of challenge, I use my elementalist.

When someone ask on map chat which gear they should use or which is the most efficient, I simply explain the current meta, since they will have to know when decide to use the LFG tool, and then ask which is their play style. According to their answer, I point to the gear which they would feel better, comfortable, playing.

It should be simple as that. This is a game and everyone have a sort of different definition of what is fun. Find out which one is yours and try to stick with like minded for better quality of life.

This is perfect. Thank you for this post.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Star Ace.5207:

Again, nowhere has it ever been stated by ANet that “passive stats” are "training wheels.

Not precisely. However, Robert Hrouda at one point when he was still dungeon lead posted that he envisioned the faster kill times of glass set-ups as a reward for knowledge, skill and coordination in dungeons. I’d find it but search works so well and I don’t have all day to go through the Dev tracker. Since that is what in fact happens, I’ll go out on a limb and say it is intended.

Someone had that comment as a signature, and it was taken out of context; furthermore, I very well remembered that IN THE SAME place he quoted that, which is true, he also stated something else that totally contradicts the idea that it’s “intended” (I don’t remember but I did post about quite a while ago, when your argument-“it’s intended”-was used quoting Mr. Hrouda.) What’s “intended” is that players can complete any content in Berserker’s gear after good knowledge of the content, not that “passive stats” are training wheels. It’s not one and the same thing to conclude that “therefore”, GW2’s ultimate “display of skill” is to play without so-called “passive stats.” Why the heck they allow ascended Nomad’s, just for WvW people? Nah, you gotta be honest with yourself: there’s ascended for different permutations of stats because there are different types of players-and I am not talking about so-called “baddies”-that “require” those sets for different playstyles that don’t necessarily involve “lack of dodging”, just not max DPS sets (which is fine, as max DPS is not required by the game, only meta speedrunners.)

Mr. Whiteside recently commented on his Raid CDI that he uses something else not “zerk” on PvE out of personal choice, not just due to lack of skill. That is my point. You don’t need to say “GW2 is intended to be played without passive stats if you are really skilled” in order to use Berserker’s gear-you use it because you enjoy it, it’s efficient, and is what fits your personality/playstyle (or any particular character, is what your guild rather have you use, etc.). It is basically a common myth, based on those few players that really follow the meta (as not everybody is as “meta” as they think), and not on facts about 100% of players. No need to preach it as “GW2 as intended”, because not even the makers of the game believe in that (Mr. Hrouda, or whoever.)

In short, not every player GW2 chooses to speedrun, and there are many ways to “display skill” other than “active stats”. I will always separate the player from the gear, as I should if I am going to be fair.

The most you could say is that if you intend to speedrun in organized “meta” groups, you better adopt more offensive gear and synergistic strategies-which is a quite different than saying that “Zerk” is “intended” for GW2 PvE otherwise you “lack skill” or “don’t know how to dodge.”

I mean no offense, however, nor was I offended by your post; all is good, even if you’ll disagree.