Guild Wars 2

The reason why people don’t play gw1 despite the obvious fact that it’s superior to gw2, is because the can’t. The population isn’t there. Gw1 is playable and fun when there are others to play it with. GW1 is still an online game and while a lot of the content can be soloed, the fun comes from playing with others. It’s not easy for a game that receives no support from its developer to continue thriving, neither is it easy to get a significant amount of people to go back to a game they were forced out of, due to said negligence from the devs.

Also, why do you people still bother to respond to lordkrall? Didn’t you already know that he’s Anet’s ultimate fanboy?

lordkrall.7241:

Which would of course suggest that the game as it was wasn’t as awesome as people here seems to claim every time they whine about GW2. If it really were that awesome, people would have kept playing it even without any new dev-work.

Just for the record I started playing GW1 a few months after Prophecies release, and still play it now and then. But that doesn’t mean I refuse to accept that there are issues with it.

Of course it had issues.
But for me, I had pretty much nothing left to do. I had GWAMM, 50/50 and every profession (except dervish) wearing the armor I wanted and in some cases owning nearly every elite armor set in the game. I wasn’t exceptionally rich (around 200k+).
I wasn’t into GvG or HA because I never really bothered to try to join guilds into it. I played a lot of RA. I even tried to fill the menagerie but after a while it became too troublesome.
The only thing I’d play, even before GW2 release date was announced, was FA on luxon side because I loved proving to people that even if FA favors the kurzick side, luxons can still beat them.

So aside from GvG and HA, I did everything else, a lot. Even the funniest joke stops making you laugh when you heard it for the hundredth time.

But I don’t go around comparing the gameplay of GW2 and GW1 because it’s not the same thing. The only things I compare are the lore (which is awkwardly done in GW2) and the armor designs (it’s sad I have trouble finding one set I love in GW2 when I had trouble choosing only one in GW1).

I like GW2. It could be better (like everything). At first I wasn’t too bothered by having unpolished content because hey, a lot of players told Anet to “release an unfinished version, we don’t care, we just want to play”. But after 18 months, I’m getting easily annoyed by a lot of things that should have been changed for months but weren’t (bugs and exploits mostly, I gave up on the lore and after seeing the flame reskins, I’m starting to give up on armor too).

Deli.1302:

The reason why people don’t play gw1 despite the obvious fact that it’s superior to gw2, is because the can’t. The population isn’t there.

Gosh, if all the chronic naysayer’s actually played GW1, wouldn’t that solve the population problem?

I mean, you keep saying GW1 is better; prove it ANET by playing it! Vote by filling the GW1 servers! Buy GW1 stuff! Show them how much better GW1 is, if that’s what you really think.

Sytherek.7689:

Deli.1302:

The reason why people don’t play gw1 despite the obvious fact that it’s superior to gw2, is because the can’t. The population isn’t there.

Gosh, if all the chronic naysayer’s actually played GW1, wouldn’t that solve the population problem?

I mean, you keep saying GW1 is better; prove it ANET by playing it! Vote by filling the GW1 servers! Buy GW1 stuff! Show them how much better GW1 is, if that’s what you really think.

Lol, I’ll tell you why they/we won’t. There’s quite a few reasons, but imo the most important is the fluid combat. ANet knows they got a real gem with the action-oriented gameplay, boon sharing, CC-mechanics, and cross-profession combo’s. Even with all the other detractors people talk about, when you go back to GW1 it feels incredibly sluggish and tame and antiquated. You’re constantly reminded with every step you take how outdated the engine is, even with all of its superior elements like customization, teamwork, pvp, guild mechanics, storyline, community, etc, etc, etc.

The freedom that GW2 combat gives you is extremely hard to pass on. It’s the crowning achievement of this game. No one doubts that, no one. What a lot of players would have liked, I’m guessing, was that very combat freedom along with all of those superior elements I mentioned. But, obviously, that doesn’t exist. ANet knows this and knows they can simply rest on their laurels until naysayers like myself fall to the wayside. I mean, we can’t keep this up forever right?

So, sorry to bother you Sytherek, but let us vent just a little longer. We’re already tired. And jaded. It won’t last too much longer.

The central conceit of this entire thread is flawed. It’s absurd to claim that if a game is good enough you can play it forever. Most games have a very finite cap to the amount of enjoyment you can get out of it. Most games get boring if you play them enough no matter how good they are. And with GW1, when you reach the point where you have every little scripted moment memorized, it becomes boring. Still, GW1 kept my attention longer than any other game has since maybe when I was a teenager playing Tie Fighter in the 90s. My favorite game of all time was Knights of the Old Republic, and I played it several times, logged in probably a couple hundred hours, and played through the several storyline options. But I haven’t picked it up in six years. Not because it isn’t a great game, but because there’s only so much enjoyment you can get out of repetition.

You know why I don’t go back to GW1? Because I have over 3600 hours playing GW1 since 2005. I’ve played every mission, done ever quest (many dozens of times), leveled up thirteen characters, gained every armor I wanted, every weapon I wanted. I’ve spent days exploring lore on and off the game and put a lot of money into it. I maxed out heroes across all thirteen characters, finished the game storyline more times than I could count. I captured every single elite skill, explored every little nook and cranny and uncovered every little piece of blurred land. I’ve gone through and played the same mission over and over again just to get under time to get the bonus objectives. I’ve tried out hundreds of builds and made a few of my own. And still I do log in every couple months, but there’s nothing left to do that I haven’t done over and over again. Occasionally I go out and kill a few things, but short of grinding mobs I’m done; I’ve completed the story and really maxed out my characters as much as I can.

If they had decided to go with a new expansion rather than GW2 I would be there playing that.

And it’s not like anyone is saying GW1 was perfect. It had its faults, and there are areas where GW2 surpasses it. For instance the fluidity of combat (jumping, dodging, being able to cast while moving), making the world open rather than mostly instanced, and of course just general upgrades to the level of detail, lighting and animation. GW1 is an eight year old game and it shows.

But there are areas where GW2 has fallen far short of GW1. A reliance on vertical progression and a weak living story rather than actual new content and expansions. About this time with GW1 we had Factions and Nightfall (Nightfall was released in October of 2006) released as expansions, with the continents of Cantha and Elona added. GW2 has a skill system that is far more limited than GW1 and yet somehow is still unbalanced (one of the reasons the developers decided to go with a smaller number of skills was because they claimed it would help them balance the game… 18 months in, it doesn’t seem like they can balance the game no matter how many skills there are, so why not move back to the deck style combat which at least allowed variation?). Most of us came from GW1 expecting that the developers would have learned from their mistakes and were going to make GW2 a massively expanded open GW1. After all, what’s the point of making another WoW or Rift or Everquest, those games already do what they do and they for the most part part do them well. Fans of GW1 liked GW1 because it offered something unique; the anti-MMO where there was no grinding and combat was based on skill and cleverness. Instead most of the key developers have left and GW2 has moved more and more to become a clone of every other MMO on the market.

funkylovemonkey.3097:

The central conceit of this entire thread is flawed. It’s absurd to claim that if a game is good enough you can play it forever. Most games have a very finite cap to the amount of enjoyment you can get out of it. Most games get boring if you play them enough no matter how good they are. And with GW1, when you reach the point where you have every little scripted moment memorized, it becomes boring. Still, GW1 kept my attention longer than any other game has since maybe when I was a teenager playing Tie Fighter in the 90s. My favorite game of all time was Knights of the Old Republic, and I played it several times, logged in probably a couple hundred hours, and played through the several storyline options. But I haven’t picked it up in six years. Not because it isn’t a great game, but because there’s only so much enjoyment you can get out of repetition.

You know why I don’t go back to GW1? Because I have over 3600 hours playing GW1 since 2005. I’ve played every mission, done ever quest (many dozens of times), leveled up thirteen characters, gained every armor I wanted, every weapon I wanted. I’ve spent days exploring lore on and off the game and put a lot of money into it. I maxed out heroes across all thirteen characters, finished the game storyline more times than I could count. I captured every single elite skill, explored every little nook and cranny and uncovered every little piece of blurred land. I’ve gone through and played the same mission over and over again just to get under time to get the bonus objectives. I’ve tried out hundreds of builds and made a few of my own. And still I do log in every couple months, but there’s nothing left to do that I haven’t done over and over again. Occasionally I go out and kill a few things, but short of grinding mobs I’m done; I’ve completed the story and really maxed out my characters as much as I can.

If they had decided to go with a new expansion rather than GW2 I would be there playing that.

And it’s not like anyone is saying GW1 was perfect. It had its faults, and there are areas where GW2 surpasses it. For instance the fluidity of combat (jumping, dodging, being able to cast while moving), making the world open rather than mostly instanced, and of course just general upgrades to the level of detail, lighting and animation. GW1 is an eight year old game and it shows.

But there are areas where GW2 has fallen far short of GW1. A reliance on vertical progression and a weak living story rather than actual new content and expansions. About this time with GW1 we had Factions and Nightfall (Nightfall was released in October of 2006) released as expansions, with the continents of Cantha and Elona added. GW2 has a skill system that is far more limited than GW1 and yet somehow is still unbalanced (one of the reasons the developers decided to go with a smaller number of skills was because they claimed it would help them balance the game… 18 months in, it doesn’t seem like they can balance the game no matter how many skills there are, so why not move back to the deck style combat which at least allowed variation?). Most of us came from GW1 expecting that the developers would have learned from their mistakes and were going to make GW2 a massively expanded open GW1. After all, what’s the point of making another WoW or Rift or Everquest, those games already do what they do and they for the most part part do them well. Fans of GW1 liked GW1 because it offered something unique; the anti-MMO where there was no grinding and combat was based on skill and cleverness. Instead most of the key developers have left and GW2 has moved more and more to become a clone of every other MMO on the market.

bam
100% +1

milo.6942:

funkylovemonkey.3097:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW1-Nostalgia-Why-not-just-PLAY-GW1/page/3#post3440125

bam
100% +1

Lets not forget the manifesto..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvxOWwH0Vlo

What a laugh that is compared to how GW2 is now. These were the promises we GW1 players were given. What colin said in it, the first half we got, then he mentioned swinging a sword and grinding.. And then the video goes on to show stuff that’s STILL not in the game.

Actual Quotes:

Mike O’brien – FOUNDER:

“We founded ArenaNet to innovate. So Guild Wars 2 is our opportunity to question everything; to make a game that defies existing conventions.”

“Guild Wars 2.. Takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world that’s got.. more active combat, a fully branching personalized story-line, a new event system to get people playing together and still no monthly fee’s.”

Dynamic events existed in other games before Guild Wars 2. It didn’t break the mold unless renaming them counts as breaking the mold. More active combat doesn’t exist in WvW when you limit the amount of people you can attack with aoe to 5. it means you throw a couple attacks out, expect to hit a few people, and carry on with your life.

Guild Wars 2 took the name that you loved from Guild Wars 1 and proceeded to add locations that changed over 250 years and turn most of them into ruins. It took the classes, renamed some, and barely took the skills from gw1 to gw2. It exclusified weapons to certain classes – there by removing my favourite thing from GW1. It removed locations and has yet to describe if we will EVER see them again. I’m talking about you cantha, elona and the areas above frostgorge..

Colin Johanson – Game Designer:

“Most games, you go out and have really fun tasks occasionally that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff.”

That last quote is how GW2 currently is. The ‘fun stuff’ of the game is either holiday related or groups require you to be level 80. After one grind through levels, I never wanted to do it again because it literally was a boring grind to me. I know its not the same for everyone, but that’s just how I am. but the best part is his next quote RIGHT after the last one..

“I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. HE-EY! I swung it again!! That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that, no one finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”

Colin. You are a GAME DESIGNER. If you didn’t want players to grind – not only for levels – but for specific gear, why in the name of the 6 is that how you get specific gear? Why say people don’t like to grind? People do. As long as it’s not riddled with RNG.

The Guild Wars 2 promise and the results 18 months later are clearly two different things, and people have the nerve to say we GW1 players should stop complaining. I’ll stop complaining when I see them truly deliver on empty promises.
mic drop

And yet again people are completely ignorant to what a manifest actually is.
You also blatantly IGNORE clarifications and other information given BEFORE the game was released, and most of it even before you could buy the game.

It is not ArenaNets fault people swallow marketing without looking stuff up more than a single SEVERAL YEAR OLD “declaration of the intentions”.

But I suppose all you manifesto-lovers would rather have the game shut down within a year due to lack of revenue? Because that is most likely exactly what would have happened had they not changed stuff based on the actual market.

lordkrall.7241:

And yet again people are completely ignorant to what a manifest actually is.
You also blatantly IGNORE clarifications and other information given BEFORE the game was released, and most of it even before you could buy the game.

It is not ArenaNets fault people swallow marketing without looking stuff up more than a single SEVERAL YEAR OLD “declaration of the intentions”.

But I suppose all you manifesto-lovers would rather have the game shut down within a year due to lack of revenue? Because that is most likely exactly what would have happened had they not changed stuff based on the actual market.

GW1 seems to have done quite well for itself. This hot-air claim I see all the time that GW2 would have imploded within a year if it was actually true to the manifesto is all white knight bs. GW2 lost its way before it even released. Its heart and soul was destroyed when they decided to forget all the great things they innovated with in GW1 and attempt to reinvent the wheel. In their hubris they didn’t even understand what gw was about. Fast forward to the ascended crisis and it’s clear anet has no idea what their target audience is.

Deli.1302:

The reason why people don’t play gw1 despite the obvious fact that it’s superior to gw2, is because the can’t. The population isn’t there. Gw1 is playable and fun when there are others to play it with. GW1 is still an online game and while a lot of the content can be soloed, the fun comes from playing with others. It’s not easy for a game that receives no support from its developer to continue thriving, neither is it easy to get a significant amount of people to go back to a game they were forced out of, due to said negligence from the devs.

Also, why do you people still bother to respond to lordkrall? Didn’t you already know that he’s Anet’s ultimate fanboy?

What happened to Vayne? i thought he was the ultimate Fanboy?

And Guildwars to Guildwars 2 is so big a change its off the scale of upgrade…Just Cause to Just Cause 2 is an upgrade.. Guildwars vs Guildwars 2 is more like Final Fantasy 7 is to Final Fantasy 12…

milo.6942:

GW1 seems to have done quite well for itself. This hot-air claim I see all the time that GW2 would have imploded within a year if it was actually true to the manifesto is all white knight bs. GW2 lost its way before it even released. Its heart and soul was destroyed when they decided to forget all the great things they innovated with in GW1 and attempt to reinvent the wheel. In their hubris they didn’t even understand what gw was about. Fast forward to the ascended crisis and it’s clear anet has no idea what their target audience is.

Let’s put some things back in perspective.

In GW1’s time, Anet team size was more than three times smaller than in GW2 time.

GW1 wasn’t hyped to be the game of the year. They didn’t aim for a huge and broad audience with it. But they did for GW2.
It’s pretty logic to tweak some things in order to get more people to play your game if your goal is to be the best MMO around (not explicitly said, but come on, let’s drop the bullkitten).

Of course by today they have no idea about their target audience. It’s not a single person, it’s thousands of players with some asking things that were made clear we wouldn’t get from the start (ascended gear, raid like content), which always makes me wonder “Why the hell buy a game you want to change it’s core principle ?” but yet, they got their way a few time and each time to get their way each time more and more people join in asking changes going against the core of the game.
And then they have the double personality audience :
-I love Scarlet
-BURN HER !
-GW2 armor are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo skimpy it’s disgusting !
-GW2 needs moar underbreast armor !
-WvW needs love
-Who gives a kitten about it ?!
-Dungeons are too hard, if you don’t have a certain class you can’t complete them QQ
-Dungeons are too easy
-I’m so poor QQ
-I don’t even know what to do with you 10 legendaries :/
-X profession is OP
-X profession sucks

…

Sure, even GW1 had those. But in GW1 it was clear (at least for the first year or so) that players would not get their way. Anet had an idea, advertise it and wouldn’t change it.
In GW2 they decided to go with “hey let’s listen to everyone because we need people to buy gems”.

Sytherek.7689:

Deli.1302:

The reason why people don’t play gw1 despite the obvious fact that it’s superior to gw2, is because the can’t. The population isn’t there.

Gosh, if all the chronic naysayer’s actually played GW1, wouldn’t that solve the population problem?

I mean, you keep saying GW1 is better; prove it ANET by playing it! Vote by filling the GW1 servers! Buy GW1 stuff! Show them how much better GW1 is, if that’s what you really think.

They decided to jump ship and abandon GW1 before they even put out Eye of the North. We were supposed to get another stand alone campaign in the theme of Aztec’ish jungle areas known as “Utopia”. Anet, however, for various reasons, decided that they didn’t want to deal with the limitations of GW1’s engine and the house of cards that the skill set had become and started work on a whole new game.

No amount of reverse migration or buying “GW1 stuff” will change their minds when they decided long ago during GW1’s still very healthy period that the game was good and done.

EotN was to build hype for GW2 and everything released after that was to keep us playing so GW1’s population would make GW2 seem like a good prospect.

Most of us stopped playing because there is only so much you can do when they game isn’t being updated regularly (or at all) anymore. There is a finite amount of pve and pvp rapidly stagnates.

People dont seem to understand that gw2 killed gw1. Its not possible to play gw1 like it was before. people went to play gw2, then stopped playing after 2 months because it wasnt anything like gw1, and because gw1 isnt going to get any new content or new players, there’s no reason to keep playing it. Best solution, get the old gw1 dev team back and let them make a new expansion while gw2 has another team working on their game.

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne

Then why not go for some middle ground that still favors customization, just to a lesser degree? Instead they went waaaay the other direction. No one’s doubting the complexity of GW1 and how hard it was to balance, but simply scrapping it in favor of a system that is its polar opposite isn’t exactly innovation. It’s destruction. They almost completely dismantled and rebuilt it.

Why?

Anet has always over-reacted to problems. It’s their modus operadi.

Remember how people said that Prophecies was too long and slow. So they came out with Factions which was too short and fast. They got the balance a bit more right with Nightfall came out.

MMOs aren’t born as they later become…they grow. Anet started with less options and will add more as time goes on. That means that as they add more, they have a better chance of keeping some control. Starting out with 200 skills per profession would have killed it out of the gate.

Get the central game to where you want it, then start adding skills. It’s better for the game in the long term.

…

That’s your answer? Because overreacting is just their thing? You’re being an apologist.

I’m not being an apologist at all, because I’m not saying Anet is right for doing this. I’m saying this is what they do and I’d come to expect it. I’m more resigned to it than excusing it.

But it’s a penduluum thing. They got it wrong with Prophecies (too long and slow for most people), got it wrong with Factions (too fast, not enough content for a full game) and more or less got it right (or at least righter) with Nightfall.

I’m stating what I perceived, and saying that Guild Wars 2 will continue to by altered until there are more builds available and more skills and more ways to make builds.

But it’s never going to be Guild Wars 1 by intentional design.

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne

Then why not go for some middle ground that still favors customization, just to a lesser degree? Instead they went waaaay the other direction. No one’s doubting the complexity of GW1 and how hard it was to balance, but simply scrapping it in favor of a system that is its polar opposite isn’t exactly innovation. It’s destruction. They almost completely dismantled and rebuilt it.

Why?

Anet has always over-reacted to problems. It’s their modus operadi.

Remember how people said that Prophecies was too long and slow. So they came out with Factions which was too short and fast. They got the balance a bit more right with Nightfall came out.

MMOs aren’t born as they later become…they grow. Anet started with less options and will add more as time goes on. That means that as they add more, they have a better chance of keeping some control. Starting out with 200 skills per profession would have killed it out of the gate.

Get the central game to where you want it, then start adding skills. It’s better for the game in the long term.

…

That’s your answer? Because overreacting is just their thing? You’re being an apologist.

I’m not being an apologist at all, because I’m not saying Anet is right for doing this. I’m saying this is what they do and I’d come to expect it. I’m more resigned to it than excusing it.

But it’s a penduluum thing. They got it wrong with Prophecies (too long and slow for most people), got it wrong with Factions (too fast, not enough content for a full game) and more or less got it right (or at least righter) with Nightfall.

I’m stating what I perceived, and saying that Guild Wars 2 will continue to by altered until there are more builds available and more skills and more ways to make builds.

But it’s never going to be Guild Wars 1 by intentional design.

Vayne has a solid point here. It’s extremely hard to cater to all the different kinds of players at the same time. It’s like trying to climb 3 horses the same time (only good ol’ Chuck is able to do this > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-D1KVIuvjA).

lordkrall i would of figured gwen being dead. i was wondering about her other van gaurds who are still alive. and have stories to tell of gwen or more of pyre fierceshot who is dead. other then that will speed read what the books have to say in achievements

Sirendor.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne

Then why not go for some middle ground that still favors customization, just to a lesser degree? Instead they went waaaay the other direction. No one’s doubting the complexity of GW1 and how hard it was to balance, but simply scrapping it in favor of a system that is its polar opposite isn’t exactly innovation. It’s destruction. They almost completely dismantled and rebuilt it.

Why?

Anet has always over-reacted to problems. It’s their modus operadi.

Remember how people said that Prophecies was too long and slow. So they came out with Factions which was too short and fast. They got the balance a bit more right with Nightfall came out.

MMOs aren’t born as they later become…they grow. Anet started with less options and will add more as time goes on. That means that as they add more, they have a better chance of keeping some control. Starting out with 200 skills per profession would have killed it out of the gate.

Get the central game to where you want it, then start adding skills. It’s better for the game in the long term.

…

That’s your answer? Because overreacting is just their thing? You’re being an apologist.

I’m not being an apologist at all, because I’m not saying Anet is right for doing this. I’m saying this is what they do and I’d come to expect it. I’m more resigned to it than excusing it.

But it’s a penduluum thing. They got it wrong with Prophecies (too long and slow for most people), got it wrong with Factions (too fast, not enough content for a full game) and more or less got it right (or at least righter) with Nightfall.

I’m stating what I perceived, and saying that Guild Wars 2 will continue to by altered until there are more builds available and more skills and more ways to make builds.

But it’s never going to be Guild Wars 1 by intentional design.

Vayne has a solid point here. It’s extremely hard to cater to all the different kinds of players at the same time. It’s like trying to climb 3 horses the same time (only good ol’ Chuck is able to do this > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-D1KVIuvjA).

You’re right, he does have a point in that a successful MMO is an evolutionary process and not a polished dream right out of the box. I was also trying to bait him into a more drawn out argument because that’s not exactly the essence of the argument here is it?

You’re also right in saying that it’s hard to cater to all the different kinds of players at the same time, which has a lot to do with what everyone is talking about here. A key point of the issue is GW2 isn’t catering to the same crowd as GW1. They are catering to the casual masses. That’s fine if that’s what a company wants to do. There’s certainly money to be had in that, especially since the casual crowd is the fastest growing demographic in a decidedly cutthroat market.

What a lot of us take issue with is the contention that ANet gave every indication of making it a game for the GW1 type of player. A game for players who thrived on challenging content, strategic build diversity, meaningful storyline elements, and especially highly competitive, team-oriented PvP. They didn’t exactly do that, did they? If you’re going cater to a different crowd, have the decency to say so instead of pulling the proverbial wool over our eyes.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but I don’t know how to put it another way.

here is something to watch about GW1 Nightfall, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk5Pok7P2ic

GoTiTaLL.9018:

here is something to watch about GW1 Nightfall, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk5Pok7P2ic

Thank you for that, it was very enlightening and I’m glad you linked it.

I don’t know if it was your intention, but putting human faces to the names has a way of humbling the critics. It did for me anyway, I’m bowing out of this discussion. Thanks again.

*note: Kristen Perry is hot

I realize it’s probably because of wintersday events there as well, but, I went into GW1 today for nostalgia and 8th yr b’days, the first 4 dists of Spamadan were full and trades were over 200.
LA had 1 full dist as well. Also ecto are back up to over 11k each (13k as of today) so population has regrown. 2005-06 vets remember when ecto were 11-19k ea? LOL Anyway there are alot of people who have gone back to GW1 it seems according to the chats. GAME ON

I don’t think people would mind if GW2 was an evolution of GW1 with some new mechanics/refinements, but as it is GW2 has literally nothing in common with GW1 besides setting and the new direction they took it in isn’t even remotely well done. It’s almost the complete antithesis of GW1 and its obvious that they just decided to ride the hype train by making a sequel instead of a new ip while dumbing down every facet to make it “accessible” as a shameless cash grab. They should have just made a new, shallow, cash shop game instead of raining kitten so kitten a deep and unique franchise that it’ll never see another iteration or actual sequel.

lordkrall.7241:

And yet again people are completely ignorant to what a manifest actually is.
You also blatantly IGNORE clarifications and other information given BEFORE the game was released, and most of it even before you could buy the game.

It is not ArenaNets fault people swallow marketing without looking stuff up more than a single SEVERAL YEAR OLD “declaration of the intentions”.

But I suppose all you manifesto-lovers would rather have the game shut down within a year due to lack of revenue? Because that is most likely exactly what would have happened had they not changed stuff based on the actual market.

Do you even know what a manifesto is?

Upholding your integrity.

Anet has no integrity as a company if they double back on what they promised. What makes you think the GW1 fanbase would do if a GW3 came out? They wouldn’t buy it. What would the GW2 fanbase do if GW3 came out? They’d buy it, rage at Anet because they have no integrity and people like you would come out the woodworks and defend a company that doesn’t care about their customers or, more importantly, their end product.

A manifesto is a statement of intentions. Not a promise. Not a set in stone plan. An INTENTION.

If a company finds that their intentions will not pay off it is extremely stupid of them to just follow it for the sake of following it.
Sure they might have gotten a few extra GW1 players to stay, but the GW1 players aren’t close to enough to keep a game of this magnitude alive.

Honestly, after GW2 I don’t even want GW1 anymore. GW2 has so soured my opinion on Anet I would never purchase a game developed by them again, hell…I’d love to get my money the hours I’ve spent on their games back even.

GW2 has been nothing but a categorical disappointment, should have gotten a refund back in beta instead of assuming Anet would fix anything. Seriously, all I wanted was GW1 with an open world and jumping, not asking a lot.

I would have been happier with paying $60 for literal Prophecies with a jump button.

Well, you can’t really blame anyone other than yourself for that. Seeing as anyone that just looked at www.guildwars2.com would be fully aware that GW2 would not be GW1 with open world and jumping.

Obsidian.1328:

Sirendor.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne.8563:

Obsidian.1328:

Vayne

Then why not go for some middle ground that still favors customization, just to a lesser degree? Instead they went waaaay the other direction. No one’s doubting the complexity of GW1 and how hard it was to balance, but simply scrapping it in favor of a system that is its polar opposite isn’t exactly innovation. It’s destruction. They almost completely dismantled and rebuilt it.

Why?

Anet has always over-reacted to problems. It’s their modus operadi.

Remember how people said that Prophecies was too long and slow. So they came out with Factions which was too short and fast. They got the balance a bit more right with Nightfall came out.

MMOs aren’t born as they later become…they grow. Anet started with less options and will add more as time goes on. That means that as they add more, they have a better chance of keeping some control. Starting out with 200 skills per profession would have killed it out of the gate.

Get the central game to where you want it, then start adding skills. It’s better for the game in the long term.

…

That’s your answer? Because overreacting is just their thing? You’re being an apologist.

I’m not being an apologist at all, because I’m not saying Anet is right for doing this. I’m saying this is what they do and I’d come to expect it. I’m more resigned to it than excusing it.

But it’s a penduluum thing. They got it wrong with Prophecies (too long and slow for most people), got it wrong with Factions (too fast, not enough content for a full game) and more or less got it right (or at least righter) with Nightfall.

I’m stating what I perceived, and saying that Guild Wars 2 will continue to by altered until there are more builds available and more skills and more ways to make builds.

But it’s never going to be Guild Wars 1 by intentional design.

Vayne has a solid point here. It’s extremely hard to cater to all the different kinds of players at the same time. It’s like trying to climb 3 horses the same time (only good ol’ Chuck is able to do this > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-D1KVIuvjA).

You’re right, he does have a point in that a successful MMO is an evolutionary process and not a polished dream right out of the box. I was also trying to bait him into a more drawn out argument because that’s not exactly the essence of the argument here is it?

You’re also right in saying that it’s hard to cater to all the different kinds of players at the same time, which has a lot to do with what everyone is talking about here. A key point of the issue is GW2 isn’t catering to the same crowd as GW1. They are catering to the casual masses. That’s fine if that’s what a company wants to do. There’s certainly money to be had in that, especially since the casual crowd is the fastest growing demographic in a decidedly cutthroat market.

What a lot of us take issue with is the contention that ANet gave every indication of making it a game for the GW1 type of player. A game for players who thrived on challenging content, strategic build diversity, meaningful storyline elements, and especially highly competitive, team-oriented PvP. They didn’t exactly do that, did they? If you’re going cater to a different crowd, have the decency to say so instead of pulling the proverbial wool over our eyes.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but I don’t know how to put it another way.

I don’t know. I was a hard core Guild Wars 1 player, and I felt I pretty much knew what to expect. I knew what the personal story would be, in a great amount of detail. I knew what dynamic events would be. And I certainly knew there were be no second profession, far less skills and skills tied to weapons. It wasn’t like Anet hid any of this.

If Anet didn’t say straight out there would be less skills, or that there won’t be healers, I’d agree…but they told us this stuff.

People chose to look at one line from the manifesto (everything you loved about Guild Wars 2) and make that the extent of their research. It’s not like Anet didn’t have two years to tell us everything about the game after that point.

There are, of course, things we didn’t know…but much of the criticism, particularly around skills and builds, was pretty much public knowledge.

Did ANet actually admit at some point that the manifesto no longer holds up water and they have moved on to more profitable design models, or is it just read between the lines? I mean, did they come out and admit they no longer wanted to make the game based on the things they felt were important when they released the manifesto?

Most of the manifesto still holds up, even if people like to pick it apart and take specific lines out of context. We’ve been over and over this.

For example, the manifesto, the video I’m talking about here, mentions neither vertical progression nor gear grind.

The grind line is defined in the manifesto itself. Colin says, “in most games there’s this annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”. Ergo that’s the grind he’s talking about.

The manifesto as a statement of intent is fine. People choose to interpret it differently than it was meant, and that remains a problem…but it’s not entirely Anet’s problem.

HappyPrimes.3904:

Honestly, after GW2 I don’t even want GW1 anymore. GW2 has so soured my opinion on Anet I would never purchase a game developed by them again, hell…I’d love to get my money the hours I’ve spent on their games back even.

GW2 has been nothing but a categorical disappointment, should have gotten a refund back in beta instead of assuming Anet would fix anything. Seriously, all I wanted was GW1 with an open world and jumping, not asking a lot.

I would have been happier with paying $60 for literal Prophecies with a jump button.

And still you are here yappin’.

Sorry you have got the raw deal here but I like GW2 much better how it is now than how it would have been with GW1 with open world and jumping.

Atleast I have a feeling I am still playing Guild Wars when I play Guild Wars 2.
The models and movements of characters and skills, the enemies and alot of the story.
For me it feels like GW2 is a perfect “upgrade” of GW1 with just what you mentioned (Jumping and open world) but with lots more like Crafting, Jumping Puzzles, Events, tasks, movements while channeling skills (no stale turret combat), no stupid trinity, waypoints.
What I do miss is; Guild Hall, Cantha, the ability to save and load builds and Heroes iow Henchmens that you can outfit and trait(Though I read that they don’t want that in the game I sill miss it).

Edit:
Quoting Vayne (It won’t quote as it should)

Most of the manifesto still holds up, even if people like to pick it apart and take specific lines out of context. We’ve been over and over this.

For example, the manifesto, the video I’m talking about here, mentions neither vertical progression nor gear grind.

The grind line is defined in the manifesto itself. Colin says, “in most games there’s this annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”. Ergo that’s the grind he’s talking about.

The manifesto as a statement of intent is fine. People choose to interpret it differently than it was meant, and that remains a problem…but it’s not entirely Anet’s problem.

Anet says something like, there should be no grind to get to the fun stuff!
People read no grind and that means they have said NO GRIND!
Well… Depends on how you look at it, the fun stuff is it to have a Legendary to brag about it? or is it to play the game and every content of it?
I don’t have a legendary… I have ascended accesories, one ascended weapon and soon I am able to craft me half of my armor ascended.
I havent farmed or Grinded any part of the game… But well that depends on what you call it, I do all Scarlet attacks I can since I like to do them(havent done them for a while now though), I did grind boxes during the south sun LS for about an hour a day since I liked running around doing events with all other players(it is such a nice experience playing with others without having to group).

Off topic, but in relation to GW2 and the video that was posted, Daniel and the Art team is phenomenal. GW2 gets an A++ when it comes to art and beauty.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

HappyPrimes.3904:

Honestly, after GW2 I don’t even want GW1 anymore. GW2 has so soured my opinion on Anet I would never purchase a game developed by them again, hell…I’d love to get my money the hours I’ve spent on their games back even.

GW2 has been nothing but a categorical disappointment, should have gotten a refund back in beta instead of assuming Anet would fix anything. Seriously, all I wanted was GW1 with an open world and jumping, not asking a lot.

I would have been happier with paying $60 for literal Prophecies with a jump button.

And still you are here yappin’.

Sorry you have got the raw deal here but I like GW2 much better how it is now than how it would have been with GW1 with open world and jumping.

Atleast I have a feeling I am still playing Guild Wars when I play Guild Wars 2.
The models and movements of characters and skills, the enemies and alot of the story.
For me it feels like GW2 is a perfect “upgrade” of GW1 with just what you mentioned (Jumping and open world) but with lots more like Crafting, Jumping Puzzles, Events, tasks, movements while channeling skills (no stale turret combat), no stupid trinity, waypoints.
What I do miss is; Guild Hall, Cantha, the ability to save and load builds and Heroes iow Henchmens that you can outfit and trait(Though I read that they don’t want that in the game I sill miss it).

Edit:
Quoting Vayne (It won’t quote as it should)

Most of the manifesto still holds up, even if people like to pick it apart and take specific lines out of context. We’ve been over and over this.

For example, the manifesto, the video I’m talking about here, mentions neither vertical progression nor gear grind.

The grind line is defined in the manifesto itself. Colin says, “in most games there’s this annoying grind before you get to the fun stuff”. Ergo that’s the grind he’s talking about.

The manifesto as a statement of intent is fine. People choose to interpret it differently than it was meant, and that remains a problem…but it’s not entirely Anet’s problem.

Anet says something like, there should be no grind to get to the fun stuff!
People read no grind and that means they have said NO GRIND!
Well… Depends on how you look at it, the fun stuff is it to have a Legendary to brag about it? or is it to play the game and every content of it?
I don’t have a legendary… I have ascended accesories, one ascended weapon and soon I am able to craft me half of my armor ascended.
I havent farmed or Grinded any part of the game… But well that depends on what you call it, I do all Scarlet attacks I can since I like to do them(havent done them for a while now though), I did grind boxes during the south sun LS for about an hour a day since I liked running around doing events with all other players(it is such a nice experience playing with others without having to group).

But they further clarified the grind statement in the months after the manifesto. They used the Shadow Behemoth as an example. Putting big, fun group encounters in low level zones, so people don’t have to play through the entire game to get to end game to experience something really cool.

I’m not sure why this is even being discussed. They said something, explained it at the time, and three years later, three years!…people are questioning what it meant.

If they weren’t paying attention at the time, and they ignored most of what was said after the manifesto, I’d call that their own lookout.

Guild Wars 1 is dead, that’s why we can’t play it. FA, JQ, Alliance battles… there is nobody there. I don’t have hours to waste waiting for people who may not show up. And FA at it’s peak was the best PVP. Casual, quick to join, yet with plenty of strategy and TONS of viable builds on each side. I had a ridiculous amount of saved builds for it that were quite successful.

The reason why GW1 was so good was because of the versatility and because of the roles people took. People want control, but a bit of “cohesion” on the battlefield helps so that players can be strategic. That doesn’t happen in GW2 since healers were removed and the entire concept of lines (frontline, midline, backline) was distorted. Casters who play frontline, but only because their weapon range forces them to… or Thieves who are firing at you from afar. It sounds nice, but I think it makes fighting more of a “omg rush them!” or “run away” because there isn’t any structure. Group play becomes way too chaotic fast (I won’t even get into all the area spam and special effects going off, even when you do limit them) and feels sloppy. It is fun to play jack of all trades, and Mesmer in GW1 was quite effective at that (ignore the hordes of players just running cookie cutter Panic, Diversion Spam, Domination Hex stacking) because skills really did hit hard due to their unique natures. GW2 is just over simplified in areas like locked weapon skills, constricting trait lines, NO hexes… they went too far. I also want true cross profession team play back… it was pretty obvious what the developers were thinking with certain lines, like Blood Magic being given all the physical boosting skills (they want you to team up with physical players, or Pargons specifically so you can give them all the cracked armor they need). We just have silly combo fields now. Does anybody even remember what a lot of them do on finishers?

I loved running around not really doing a lot on my own but pumping others up via well timed control and hexes, or even just learning meta enchantments and removing them in the most contextually strategic way (FA was really good for this again).

I still play GW1 on occasion, although I haven’t logged in for over a month now. Was thinking I might this weekend though. An old fashioned FoW run sounds fun. =)

Vayne.8563:

For example, the manifesto, the video I’m talking about here, mentions neither vertical progression nor gear grind.

Not explicitly no. But it is definitely part of the “takes everything you love about GW1” line. If you were to survey everyone that played GW1 and asked what they love about it, I -guarantee- “lack of vertical progression” makes the top 3. And I would bet on it being a contender for the #1 spot. It was very much a franchise-defining feature.

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Not explicitly no. But it is definitely part of the “takes everything you love about GW1” line. If you were to survey everyone that played GW1 and asked what they love about it, I -guarantee- “lack of vertical progression” makes the top 3. And I would bet on it being a contender for the #1 spot. It was very much a franchise-defining feature.

Which would suggest that they didn’t survey people that played GW1.
Because anyone that have actually played GW1 (past Factions) is fully aware that there are vertical progression in the game.

Also taking everything you love about GW1 would more or less mean “Making GW1 with better graphics” since there is most likely people that love every single thing in the game.
It is marketing, plain and simple. Anyone that actually thought that they would simply remake GW1 were fooling themselves and clearly didn’t check up on anything said about the game.

lordkrall.7241:

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Not explicitly no. But it is definitely part of the “takes everything you love about GW1” line. If you were to survey everyone that played GW1 and asked what they love about it, I -guarantee- “lack of vertical progression” makes the top 3. And I would bet on it being a contender for the #1 spot. It was very much a franchise-defining feature.

Which would suggest that they didn’t survey people that played GW1.
Because anyone that have actually played GW1 (past Factions) is fully aware that there are vertical progression in the game.

Also taking everything you love about GW1 would more or less mean “Making GW1 with better graphics” since there is most likely people that love every single thing in the game.
It is marketing, plain and simple. Anyone that actually thought that they would simply remake GW1 were fooling themselves and clearly didn’t check up on anything said about the game.

I personally didn’t expect them to take absolutely everything that anyone ever loved about the game and remake GW1 with better graphics. But I definitely expected them to maintain the franchise-defining characteristics of the original game (specifically things that GW1 did well in comparison to other games), as well as keeping to the same priorities. And that is not even remotely true in the GW2 that exists today.

Your argument is basically this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

In what way is it not true though? People always seems to claim that there is so different, but usually they don’t come with actual arguments about it. All I hear is people talking about vertical progression, but that was present in GW1 as well (worse than in GW2 in some cases).

GW 1 Nostalgia, you say?

I found this gem of a video that details the making of Nightfall and showcases how the design process works at Arenanet (or at least how it worked back then, which could mostly still be the same).

Obsidian.1328:

You’re right, he does have a point in that a successful MMO is an evolutionary process and not a polished dream right out of the box. I was also trying to bait him into a more drawn out argument because that’s not exactly the essence of the argument here is it?

You’re also right in saying that it’s hard to cater to all the different kinds of players at the same time, which has a lot to do with what everyone is talking about here. A key point of the issue is GW2 isn’t catering to the same crowd as GW1. They are catering to the casual masses. That’s fine if that’s what a company wants to do. There’s certainly money to be had in that, especially since the casual crowd is the fastest growing demographic in a decidedly cutthroat market.

What a lot of us take issue with is the contention that ANet gave every indication of making it a game for the GW1 type of player. A game for players who thrived on challenging content, strategic build diversity, meaningful storyline elements, and especially highly competitive, team-oriented PvP. They didn’t exactly do that, did they? If you’re going cater to a different crowd, have the decency to say so instead of pulling the proverbial wool over our eyes.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but I don’t know how to put it another way.

Hello Obsidian, I really didn’t mean to counter your point and I don’t really agree with the way the game is going either, as my posting history probably points out.

Your remark about different public is probably correct, and it would seem the public GW2 focuses most on is the one who:
1) doesn’t like hard challenges
2) isn’t very interested in competitive PvP
3) doesn’t mind repeating content countless times
4) cares for “being the best” more than actually playing the game (which we see in the way legendaries are dealt out, the way ascended are dealt out).

It would seem GW2 developers initially had great ideas and really didn’t expect players to burn through content all that fast, but truth be told, it was fun, it was massive and people thought they would make it challenging enough to make it last, just like GW1, by releasing high quality over the course of a few months.

I think most people in my first guild stopped playing around December-January-February, that’s when the first big shockwave of leavers hit. In the period from August to December they should have been able to prepare a new release, possibly just 1 single new map, but they didn’t. They were too late in releasing anything interesting and people gave up. They expected A LOT of this game, because it was being hyped from at least early 2012, and then in a few months, the average player already completed everything there was to the game.

My hypothesis is that Anet felt like they needed to bring in more stuff for casual players who didn’t rush through all the content yet, and tried to keep them playing at all costs, through shallow patches. Once they started down that road, they scared off anyone who was after challenging content, and developed an increasing need to cater to casuals.

Personally, I live for challenges, and it’s certainly not what I expected from Guild Wars 2, when I look back to GW1 being such a rich experience (when we look at other games of that time), with an epic story and a great feel of progression for the player, with a little grind (titles mostly), but something you weren’t forced to do and was really only for really really really hardcore players.

Ashabhi.1365:

The second type, of which there are quite a few, remember GW1 as the Holy Grail of MMOs, even though it was not a true MMO. GW1 was actually instanced throughout except for the hubs.

No one cares about the open world in themepark MMOs anymore after the novelty has worn off though. Just look at how utterly dead this game’s world is right now.
The endgame (PvE) part, the thing that actually matters long-term for player retention, was some of the best designed in the MMO space.

I don’t want to play GW1 in a shiny new box. I want to play GW2.

GW2 has literally nothing in common anymore with GW1, except for terminology. Yes, that even includes the lore for the most part, especially if we start counting EotN onwards, which was deliberately set up as GW2 bridge.

I started play GW1 with friends when it was still a babe. When it was released, I was proud to be a part of it. We had our guild, we helped each other and lots of fun.
GW2 came along and we jumped in feet first.
After a month, none of my friends were about. They moved full time WoW players. They liked the Trinity and that sort of gameplay and GW2 became a novelty.

I do like both games. I certainly have more vested in my GW1 characters and heroes. It makes some moments in GW2 more somber, like finding Gwen’s grave, The Henge of Denravi, or the old Lion’s Arch.
People have said it is a different game, and this is true.

“It’s still the same old story
A fight for love and glory
A case of do or die
The world will always welcome lovers
As time goes by "

Nick.6972:

Because they promised GW2 would take everything we loved about GW1 and use in GW2?

This. Greatest disappointment ever, followed by the “promised-not-to-be-in-game” gear grind.

Because I always try to dodge, jump, cast skills on cooldown, and just generally end up feeling stupid.

Rooks Zaer.5846:

Vayne.8563:

For example, the manifesto, the video I’m talking about here, mentions neither vertical progression nor gear grind.

Not explicitly no. But it is definitely part of the “takes everything you love about GW1” line. If you were to survey everyone that played GW1 and asked what they love about it, I -guarantee- “lack of vertical progression” makes the top 3. And I would bet on it being a contender for the #1 spot. It was very much a franchise-defining feature.

I guarantee you you’re wrong. See how easy that is.

I’d wager 90% of people who played Guild Wars 1 have never heard of vertical progression.

Generally speaking, only a tiny percentage of people think deeply about games to begin with. Only about 15% traditionally visit forums for example and only a small percentage of that 15% post.

Most people have never heard of vertical progression as hard as that is to believe.

So if Anet is talking to the 15% that really KNOW the game, you’d be right. But they were talking to everyone.

So when’s GW3 coming out? I heard it’s going to be a FPS but without guns so everybody can do everything just as good. No more snipers, spammers or medics that nobody wants to play anyway, can’t wait for it!

Guild Wars 1 players don’t want to play the same Guild Wars 1 content over and over again. Heck, many of us do agree that it’s old and could use new mechanics and features (I sure do). Yes, we were expecting a new game when we heard about Guild Wars 2, but expecting a new game is not synonymous to expecting a completely different game, especially when it’s within the same series.

What we wanted was a sequel to Guild Wars 1 as was implied. Like Pokemon Gold and Silver were to Pokemon Red and Blue, or Halo 2 was to Halo 1. We expected something new that built off of the old things that made the first game great. While Guild Wars 2 is good in it’s own way, many Guild Wars 1 players don’t feel like that sequel was delivered. It’s just a new MMO with the Guild Wars name slapped on it.

AS an middle aged man with some “mental” issues. I found GW1 appeals to one kind of player and GW2 appeals to a different kind of player. Neither is better then the other and both feel strongly about what they like and what they don’t like. For example, as a solo player I found the companions in GW1 to be incredibly stupid and tedious to deal with. In GW2 I don’t have that issue. I have friends who simply LOVED their favorite companions and had a great time questing with them and miss them in GW2. For me I found GW1 to be way to unforgiving and GW2 is MUCH more forgiving for making errors. Of course this is my opinion and it is no better or worse than anyone else’s.
Cirran

Jamais vu.5284:

How often still do you play your favourite video games that haven’t been updated in years?

Worst question you could possibly ask . Since you asked however I still play One Must Fall 2097 ,Buldars Gate , Europa Univereralis (the first one ) Colonization ( the original ) and Pax Imperium Eminent Domain to name a few

Adine.2184:

Jamais vu.5284:

How often still do you play your favourite video games that haven’t been updated in years?

Worst question you could possibly ask . Since you asked however I still play One Must Fall 2097 ,Buldars Gate , Europa Univereralis (the first one ) Colonization ( the original ) and Pax Imperium Eminent Domain to name a few

The question was, “how often.” I am genuinely curious as well.

very actually was playing OMF earlier today