Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Torpian.9142:

I’m reluctant to defend the game, though I do enjoy it. The last time I defended the game I received a warning from a moderator and a threat that my account will be locked. I realized it’s not up to me to argue with the slew of naysayers. Moderators seem to encourage the negativity here. I’m surprised Vayne hasn’t been perma banned and people like Nick and Dante aren’t given some kind of special forum status.

I’ve never had a ban, but I’ve sure had a lot of infractions. I still think they need to make an achievement for that. lol

Slightly off topic, I once received an infraction. My crime was having quoted someone on the forums, who later on, days after my post for all I’m aware, deleted their post……

Yeah I don’t know how that works either.

On topic, My highest level character is fast approaching L70. Outside of exploring, I really don’t know what I’m going to do endgame. I can’t stand dungeons, which means I prolly won’t even finish the personal story and I don’t PvP. The only time I’ve enjoyed that was in Dragon Ball.

1) recipe drops in dungeons, makes you grind the dungeon over and over since its the only place to get it and you must be really lucky… (i do it whit arah for a certain recipe)

2) rewards in game are not that great and only by doing the same stuff over and over you will eventually get what you want.
the only thing is to go smart whit the DR system.

A) make 5 chars level 80
B) change from zone before you get DR there is no use of running the same stuff over and over

if you have time do like me you never short anything:

A) run COF P1 whit each char twice
B) run COE P1 and P2 whit each char twice
C) if your as good as us run ARAH p2 twice which each char. (if you do it pro elite style it doesn’t take that much longer)
D) than for fun i run SE P1

the other dungeons i don’t like that much, but somtimes TA, HOTW and AC or CM to level up chars is also good or just to get some items i need

than you can do some FOTM runs at high level since than you get better rewards more tokens etc…

than if i’m really bored I go do some world chest you never know when you get really lucky like hell and get the drop you wanted and than I go hunt some foes in the open world based on what they drop.
And than i sell everything since the influence needed for my research to be able to start public hosting the guild events for people that don’t want to be in big guild does cost a lot…

Anyway everybody that complains about DR and low droprates and high prices in the market start first whit this:

1) make up your mind about where you want to go in game and what you need for it.
structure that do research where you can get the mats etc… and plan in fun stuff while doing it else you will get bored, and you will get punish by the game (which i find pretty good)

2) the game is free to play and if you buy it once at 40 dollar i do think anet has done a great job and they give out a lot of content (good or bad) for free….
So yes there wright when they sell gems etc to pay there employees and company etc they also have to eat etc. and some of the stuff is not that bad at all. and hey they didn’t limit it to only cash buyers, you can save gold in game and buy gems… why are they expensive? simple a lot of players don’t have the money to spend in game on gems so the more people needing gems the more expensive they get and the price is pretty stable for now, which is good. and trust me there more than only gold buyers which gems… if anet would put up a list of what people bouth last month whit gems you would be surprised… like i bought some gold, some hairkits, some chest, some keys etc

And if you still have the mentality of i see something i want it now, go ask for your daddy’s creditcard or go work for it and just buy it….

And I’m not saying that some stuff should be looked into, but your forgetting the main thing here ANET DOES NOT CONTROL THE TP PRICES PLAYERS DO…

The only thing Anet does is controlling if there is not to much so there would be a price crash like whit ectos you now can salvage them and prices on tp are stable at 20 silver which i find a good price for them other players will try to get it back up to 30 silver….

Anet could easely say thats what we think its worth based on what you need to do ingame for it this is the TP price…

And if you are unable to understand the basic game mechanics than please do not come complain, plan first, play smart, and if than its not working since you like already running a month a dungeon and you just don’t get the drop (which is really doubtful if you play smart whit DR mechanics). than you can come and complain since than there is something wrong whit the game…

GW2 was designed to explore and do more than one thing in game to archive your goal, if you keep that in mind you wouldn’t have any trouble getting your in game stuff you want.

And yes not everything is perfect but GW2 is still a young game, I personally hope on more dungeons, more fractals maps, and more level 80 content and a Hard Mode options.

Hard Mode = form team of 5 members and clear an entire map of everything, this is possible by simply loading in the map into a instance so not that hard to do.
Ofcourse whit harder foes and better rewards etc

and more level 80 content to keep variations up since there is a lot of variations but after § months its like the title been there done that

And the events now don’t really do the trick

I want realy hard chalanging content that is not for newbies to do or random pug teams

Stormcrow.7513:

Where is my challenging content? Hit a dragon toe to get terrible rewards? What dungeon besides CoF1 is worth doing(I don’t even do it at all).

Yeah, about that.

There’s plenty of challenge available if you don’t burn mobs down before your defensive resources run out. Given the game’s current PvE imbalances, the only way to challenge those at the sharp end of the meta would be to reduce player ability to burn mobs down quickly. However, this would impact players using this iteration of the meta to get the best returns the game offers.

I’m not saying kitten yourself, as that is not an acceptable solution to a lot of players. I am saying that the ability to generate massive damage (6-9K number 1 attacks, thieves reporting 40-60K spikes are just two recent examples) by boon stacking coupled with high crit chance and multiplier has eliminated much of the dungeons’ challenge. As it is, many of the dungeons are tuned to be challenging for groups with anything but the high damage setups.

They could drastically reduce diversity between classes, builds and weapons so that most group setups could generate damage numbers in the same ballpark. Then, they could change dungeon mobs (e.g., increase attack rate to wear away invulnerability faster). If they did, though, they’d probably be increasing the time it takes to complete a dungeon, and we’d still have the return-on-time issues. They’d also be reducing build options, which would likely displease most everyone.

GW2 as it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3F_ZcvR-pg

Guild Wars 2, is a fun game when you start playing it, but ended up being a game to do nothing on. If you want to spend hours on end, farming for skins.. talking with friends, or even killing stuff for the fun of it, then its an ok game to do that on.

If you want real progression, upgrades, content that improves, events that give real rewards, dungeons that give real rewards.. and anything else you normally play a game for.. gw2 is not for you.

It’s not for me, anymore.

seshat.9652:

Guild Wars 2, is a fun game when you start playing it, but ended up being a game to do nothing on. If you want to spend hours on end, farming for skins.. talking with friends, or even killing stuff for the fun of it, then its an ok game to do that on.

If you want real progression, upgrades, content that improves, events that give real rewards, dungeons that give real rewards.. and anything else you normally play a game for.. gw2 is not for you.

It’s not for me, anymore.

Anything else YOU normally play a game for. But what percentage of the playerbase is that…that remains the question.

It’s a different type of game for a different type of player. The problem is there are myriad games for players like you but there are no MMOs for players like me…except Guild Wars 2.

I am hoping that will change.

I’m getting to the point where I can’t stand this game anymore. Month after Month it is disappointment after disappointment, the patches hardly address the problems at hand. We just get Living story patch after living story patch that have added nothing but a few cosmetic items that a few people use, then go poof only to be remembered by the wiki page.
I still find the overall balance and build diversity very poor. I still see little to no good end game. Most are just farming CoF or some random area for a legendary. The Ingame economy is atrocious for players who don’t want to farm and grind all day. The overall combat and mechanics still produce a shallow gameplay that has little depth.

LordByron.8369:

Grinding is the reason why you keep playing a BAD game

Why on earth would you play a bad game?

You can make any game a grind, but I’ve never felt like I was grinding in GW2. Why not? Because I don’t feel a need to do it. Why in hell would anyone play a game they thought was bad?

Seriously.

I don’t get the whole “GW2 is a grind.” It certainly doesn’t have to be. If you think it’s a grind, you’re making it one.

Even though some went off-topic and i don’t agree with them, some I do, i sure recognize their right to have a point of view. It just shouldn’t be on this post, but since it happens frequently on forums…
But let me sum all the grinding theory for dummies, scarcity of mats leads you to farm alot more to pursue your goals. NO ONE is farming low lvl mats unless they’re leveling, period. Other than this, only with a drawing. Mats nerfed = Scarcity = Less offer = more demand = prices raise = farm more.
For fun?
Although I admit some are having fun. And I’m not being sarcastic, there’s a group of players still having fun and those are…Casual players. They come and go to GW2. Who’s having fun after 10 months of, I admit awesome moments, and then repeating always the same stuff, and then afterwards seeing and most important REALIZING the game has becoming one of the most grinding oriented game and fostered by their dev’s? Having pretty much the same to do all over again and again is no ‘FUN’. Yes the SAME, because after all it isn’t that large the world map, name one event I don’t know plz. Or Vista or whatever you can’t find or know how to get it and I’ll show you the way, I repeat, anywhere around the world map. What, do you mean these new events they came up with? With more grinding content? Leading people to farm and buy chests like little crazy ants just to persue the chance of having a wonderful but an unlikely new Dragon’s skin’s? (yes coz im there and I see what ppl do and say concerning their search for aforementioned items)
And since im not quoting anyone i’d like to say as well that no one has to be excluded/banned like some extremist positions i’ve seen.
I don’t know why i should be or anyone else for that matter, in some point of view, banned, or why was that brought to discussion, or even..whatever. I’ve always believed in freedom of speech, what i don’t believe or even like to be honest, it’s people who deliberately like to undermine others views with, i repeat, ignorant statements. What I find myself unable to do is, to respect someone that doesn’t respect other’s. And like I said, I won’t even respond to fallacious arguments. I’m not disrespecting you, just saying your arguments are easily contradicted. From my point of view ofc.
Although without quoting I’ll reply to one particular, the greastest economy stability for the last 6 months, you said mate. Well i can’t say precisely if it was after or before that approx. 1200% increase on gems prices? Is it been 6 months already since the prices went sky high? If so you got that right, been stable for the last 6 months mate.
And let me say as well that having gems more expensive is pretty much the same as having them cheaper as they were. It’s like the grocery guy right next to me, he has beautiful apples on his bench, last week hád them at 0.60€ a kilo and every single day i bought 3kg, coz im a apple eater. Well, this week he has them at 7.2€ a kg and ofc despite i like them alot i won’t buy them on a daily basis won’t i? Perhaps weekly or monthly…which leads us to the conclusion that having stuff more expensive doesn’t make you earn more, the same or even less is more likely.

Cya

Lucyfer.9517:

When i was still new to this game when i saw a champion enemy i used to be excited. I was doing everything in my power to take them down, trying to rally people and wondering why so many are not interested, it’s a champion afterall, sure is hard to kill but in every game hard to kill mobs have great loots right? Well not in this one.
As time progressed i realized that getting same loot from hard to kill mobs as from the trash mobs was not the result of my bad luck, it just how game was designed, then i understood why people were so unwilling to fight them, those mobs are not worth fighting.
From this point i started avoiding any hard fights that came my way, why would i waste my time and risk repairs for nothing?
Unfortunatelly as time progresses this game gets more and more mobs that are not worth fighting. Spiders at mellandru, spiders at grenth, illusions on lyssa including champion gorilla which is tougher than Lyssa herself, big ugly undead at eye of zhaitan who one hit kills everyone and so many more.
Why would i want to fight mobs that will give me no loot and no xp, or loot not worth the effort?
This game has so much content that is not worth doing it’s just sad. Events for 1s 80copper as reward? No thank you. Most dungeons with few silver and greens and blues as rewards? Lol just no.
Then we have Anet nerfing all possible farm spots and telling us this game is not about grind, and just as i’m about to believe them i look at requirements for legendaries, or even the latest live event with click 300 this and 300 that and while you’re at it also 200 this and i realize this game is as much about grind as any korean mmo i ever played.
Currently player who wants to make gold has only 3 possibilities in front of him. Buy it with gems, farm world bosses, or run CoF till his eyes bleed. All except first one seem like a grind to me.

i agree. never got anything from world drops anywhere. there is simply no point doing it. oh, it’s a champion….here’s absolutely nothing for killing it……nothing in chests or anywhere in the whole of tyria worth doing….. “..game is not about grind while keeping extreme requirements…btw, make it harder to get gold so the requirements are even harder….”

Id like to just drop a few quotes from Man of Steel here:

“You will give the people of Tyria a Laurel to strive towards. They will check off boxes. They will stumble, they will fall, but in time they will join you in the grind…”

“You think your class is safe? I WILL NERF IT!”

“My guildmate believed that if arenanet found my new farm spot, that they’d nerf it. He was convinced that it would ruin the economy. What do you think?”

“He’s a necro, they’ll kill him. " “How, he’ll be OP to them…”

“What if a player dreamed of something greater than what a developer had intended? What if a player aspired to something greater?”

“To farmers I say this: Surrender your farm spot within 24 hours or watch this world suffer…”

“I was bred to be a farmer. I farmed all my life, honed my skills. Where did you farm? ON A ..FARM?!”

“You will not farm… For every farm spot you find, we will nerf a million more…”

“Whats the RNG stand for?” “Its not RNG…on my world it means money..” “Well, here its RNG. How about Random—-” " ’scuse me? "

I hesitate to offer my opinion since people who do so seem to get shot down as “not ever happy with anything.” But at the same time, if concerns are not expressed, how will anything change?

I didn’t follow the development of GW2 at all, so it may be my own fault for not reading enough about the game beforehand. My previous MMO was pre-Abyssea FFXI, and after a game where just reaching the max level took me about 2 years, I thought the sound of a casual, no-grind MMO was good. I could pop in, do stuff, and still feel like I was getting somewhere, developing a character. Instead of an expansion each year at the price of a new game, there would be smaller, but constant updates.

What I failed to realize was that their idea of grinding was different from mine to begin with. In FFXI’s CoP Dynamis, from 18 to 64 guildies got together every weekend at the same time for several hours to farm an instance. For each run you attended, you were awarded a point. A certain number of points were required to cast a lot (with anyone else who had enough points) on a drop you wanted, if and when it actually dropped off a mob. At best, you were looking at least a year’s commitment to complete a set of armor. That was my idea of grinding; that your opportunities to gain the gear you wanted were not in your own hands, because nothing useful aside from leveling could be done in a PUG.

What ANet really meant by the non-grind was that instead of farming the gold painstakingly, you could swipe your credit card. Yes, you can play a profession “how you like” (more or less), but any build will have you buying the expensive gear over again, since everything is soulbound once you stick a rune on it. You can get a piece with P/V/T… If you want to try a HP Guardian build, you can buy new gear with HP in it, but you can’t sell the old stuff, oh no. But you don’t have to grind, you can just buy gems.

As for the living story, I’ve participated in each since the refugee one, and have not finished any of them. With the first one, I had trouble remembering what went on before by the time the second installment of it came out. Then, because I didn’t have enough time in-game to complete it all, the event was over. The same thing happened with the Superwhateverbox. I had fun with it, but had nowhere near enough time to dedicate to it every night, so I didn’t get a single gear piece out of it. The same thing with Southsun.

The real problem for me began with the Dragon Bash story, however. I did not buy a single rich coffer from the Gem Store. A friend of mine bought several, and got nothing at all to show for it. I know this has been beaten to death, but hear me out… A lot of guild mates wanted skins and have not gotten any at all. I popped open coffers as I killed minions and regular mobs, and I, a casual player, walked away with five skins. I would love to have been able to share them with guild mates. But no, so I’ve been spending them on weapons I don’t even use. The problem is, I feel like kitten when I wear them. I feel like a total kitten when I whip out that shield near guildies, knowing they wanted one so badly, they farmed their kitten off, bought coffers, to get nothing but candy that makes your character – ironically enough – vomit.

At least when you buy an expansion for any MMO, the contant is more or less permanent. You don’t have to get it done in six weeks or lose the chance altogether. This makes me feel uninterested in any new Living Story, because I feel like the “story” is written around whatever new skins or armor the gfx department came up with. Here’s new armor relating to the Pirates event, but sorry, it’s gems only. You can buy it for 800 gems, which is around 28 gold. Don’t have the time to grind? No matter, it’s just €10.

It really kills the immersion for me when each addition is a ruse to pump enthusiasm for Gem Story items, which are of course limited-time editions. You know a lot of casual, non-pro gamers who can farm 28 gold within whatever short time period the “event” is available?

Maybe if there was a subscription fee, the devs could focus on fixing existing content and balance issues, and adding the stuff that was promised ages ago, instead of trying to come up a story to somehow connect to the Gem Store Special of the Month.

seshat.9652:

Guild Wars 2, is a fun game when you start playing it, but ended up being a game to do nothing on. If you want to spend hours on end, farming for skins.. talking with friends, or even killing stuff for the fun of it, then its an ok game to do that on.

If you want real progression, upgrades, content that improves, events that give real rewards, dungeons that give real rewards.. and anything else you normally play a game for.. gw2 is not for you.

It’s not for me, anymore.

Well I normally play a game for the fun of it. I think it’s actually abnormal to play a game for any other reason. Although somewhere along the line “fun” and “gear progression” became the same thing to most MMO players. For traditional MMO players, GW2 is a disappointment in this regard. I feel bad for those people. I feel worse for GW2. I wish more of my friends were in to it as much as me.

@msalakka

I understand what you’re saying and I do agree thakittens a bummer the skins are account bound but it is not entirely about credit cards in my opinion. Of course credit cards are a short cut like you said no doubt there but there are other reasons. for starters scarcity is important. It gives value and makes things more desirable. Account bound is part of that, if you could sell these skins, you’d make it more about credit cards most likely because they would sell for large sums of in game money due to their scarcity and credit cards would be the only way for most people to afford them.

But I disagree that Arenanets version of non grind is swipe your credit card. I got 2 jade tickets so far and I didnt swipe the credit card nor do I feel I grinded for them. I just did whatever I felt like to farm the coffers. Large part of that was holograms but when that started to feel like I grind I switched to Just playing Events, Personal story, Guild missions and even dungeons. The coffers kept coming in. Others I bought from my profits playing dungeons and guild missions. I also made it a point never to spend more on coffers then what I earn playing whatever content. I enjoyed my time, got 2 tickets. I opened close to 3000 coffers for those 2 tickets so I wasnt particularly lucky either. Still would like another 3 skins, doubt I will manage but I can always hope I get a 2nd chest in a years time when dragon bash happens again.

You on the other hand got 5 skins and from what you said didnt swipe the credit card either and you didnt specifically grind for those skins either.

This isnt that different than what you mentioned for FFXI. How many guild mates never managed to earn their full set before they stopped playing or moved to other content getting bored with that same instance? To get everything you want it requires a bit of dedication. Here you get a time limited that’s both good and bad. I cant say for sure, I have no inside knowledge what so ever but I would be surprised if there was no way to earn these skins next time when there will be another dragon bash festival. If they add new skins they might make it easier to earn the old skins too you never know.

Vayne.8563:

A better question is why have 1.7 million people left WoW over a very short period of time.

Because it has monks.

Monks are out of fashion.

Blizzard tried to appeal to Guild Wars fans but failed :p

A better questions is when is Anet is going to come whit descent level 80 content that match a descent reward and the possibility to sell of the descent rewards….

about your wow players… A) there tired of the monthly fee hey they have a free pirate server whit people on it…

and besides for LA GW2 is also pretty empty even very high population server..
And whit the last update being nothing to pretty…; wauw go kill in some maps about so many foes… wauw….

the only thing i liked is the new story at least need some skill for it but than again no exp mode bad rewards and only a short time in game…

Really they should better bring in some more level 80 maps and focus more on new dungeons and fixing the rewards specially the drop rate on exclusive non sell items like dungeon recipes;…. like i wanted a dungeon recipe from arah and ta so after some sets of armor later etc still nothing good… still no drop like how many times you have to run a dungeon to get a single good drop…

Arah we used to run before fix all day long pretty much till they nerfed the mesmer porting thing… anyway skipping everything to end boss on two paths is no good anyway… so i lost count so how many times we did the dungeon the recipe where all after in there only droped once for about 5 players running it about 100 times and more on so many F**** runs.

TA i want recipe drop from there we ran it over and over and in the end when once inviting a pug he got it on first run….

So ya we basically gave up on that and we don’t feel the need to go magic find and ruin good builds whit that…

the thing is if you really want something there is no way of knowing you get it in one run or a 1000 runs…

Like in GW1 when we farmed elite tomes etc we knew for sure if we farmed it about 100 times we got enough platium and enough elite tomes to satisfy us.

if you farm here something 100 times they just punish you for doing it and you never see you’re reward and doing it on all dungeon doesn’t help eve if you make sure your not hit by DR by just doing it whit all of your chars…

GW2 is fun at the start but once you hit level 80 whit a char its pretty much game over.

And I don’t say DR is a bad thing but some drop rate’s should yield better changes like if you run a dungeon 100 times and you don’t get any recipe than there is something wrong whit the drop system…

Like in GW1 if i runned a dungeon i asked a certain amount for it but players leaching on the run would get it back just by drops and whit end reward they even made profit

and if we liked doing that we could do it all day long… if we wanted…
Now GW2 has a nice DR system (which i agree whit) but they have taking out every kitten possibility to get a good reward…

Whit every update major bugs are not fixed:

- still not fixed: condition stacking
- still not fixed: pretty much any bug mentions here before…

but instead they do change the trait lines and balancing and bring new armor design for 10€ in the game… but there original design is not working…

Anyway I don’t mind them making some sort of support financial possible for the game (i even by from time to time gems to support them after all the game is free and needs expansions etc…)

The only thing is there not coming and high end players are left out in favor of the major people that don’t want to game on a bid more professional level..

Like i said it so many times before make please a HM instance of the maps like in GW1 let us go kill all the foes in a map whit a team of 5 and make us have better drops or that.

Same for dungeons once you done them there pretty boring to do again they yield no challange and no reward.

like new story dungeon was a challenge to figer it out but than when you know what it is about there is nothing to it only make sure you have descent people in party..

and descent people are leaving gw2 to fast since there bored when level 80

IndigoSundown.5419:

Stormcrow.7513:

Where is my challenging content? Hit a dragon toe to get terrible rewards? What dungeon besides CoF1 is worth doing(I don’t even do it at all).

Yeah, about that.

There’s plenty of challenge available if you don’t burn mobs down before your defensive resources run out. Given the game’s current PvE imbalances, the only way to challenge those at the sharp end of the meta would be to reduce player ability to burn mobs down quickly. However, this would impact players using this iteration of the meta to get the best returns the game offers.

I’m not saying kitten yourself, as that is not an acceptable solution to a lot of players. I am saying that the ability to generate massive damage (6-9K number 1 attacks, thieves reporting 40-60K spikes are just two recent examples) by boon stacking coupled with high crit chance and multiplier has eliminated much of the dungeons’ challenge. As it is, many of the dungeons are tuned to be challenging for groups with anything but the high damage setups.

They could drastically reduce diversity between classes, builds and weapons so that most group setups could generate damage numbers in the same ballpark. Then, they could change dungeon mobs (e.g., increase attack rate to wear away invulnerability faster). If they did, though, they’d probably be increasing the time it takes to complete a dungeon, and we’d still have the return-on-time issues. They’d also be reducing build options, which would likely displease most everyone.

I know this is totaly off topic but it is warriors not thiefs there is no way a thief can hit that much in this game xD (unless he steals 100b from some mob,gets25 stacks of might and fury and i am not even sure if you can steal 100b from mob xD) :P

Edit:i lied you can hit that much in dredge fractal on last boss while he is under the fire debuff but i saw a warrior hit 126k there so doesnt really count :P

Shanna.4762:

GW2 as it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3F_ZcvR-pg

I love you for this.

Sargonnas.4168:

Shanna.4762:

GW2 as it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3F_ZcvR-pg

I love you for this.

for pointing out that the company works exactly like all the other companies and we’re probably getting financed by other games too?

in order to understand what’s wrong with gw2 ‘high-end gear’, u need to have played gw1.

nobody wants to grind for those cosmetic upgrades in gw2 because the content is perceived as grind and it feels boring. in gw1 upgrades were also cosmetic but the content to achieve it was fun and challenging. i mean u needed to set up builds and look for decent players and u had to really pay attention to ur gameplay to have a smooth run. you could even make gold from winning pvp battles (no zergfest but actually real hard won battles). having ‘top cosmetic gear’ gave u social gratification. u were considered a good player. people looked up to u and u felt good about yourself.

getting legendaries in gw2 doesn’t prove anything besides time wasting. the content is very easy and you can be half asleep and still get your quests done. zerg rushing in wvw is not a display of skill. it’s natural that players feel that they’re forced into grinding.

gw2 lacks the need to improve and to be a better player. u don’t have to make specific builds, u don’t have to be efficient, u don’t have to socialize, u don’t have to use brain. just button mash all day every day and do your daily/monthly solo or with randoms and eventually u’ll get your legendary.

the lack of actual depth of this game coupled with needless crafting complexity and tokens and crap is its downfall.

First- I did not bother to read every single post. Most of the first did not revolve around the topic at all.

I did not play GW1; I just didn’t. I think I was playing Rift at the time. However, I remember quite a few posts about GW2 would not be pay to win… that store bought stuff would be cosmetic only.

Bear with me.

This is the tenet that made GW2 exciting to me. In my context as a working professional… “Time is Money”. So a game that rewards more time spent (grinding)… is essentially pay to win… no different than if you spent $1000 on gems and where able to buy precursors etc from the store.

GW2 was fun at Launch because we were all competing on roughly the same level… Sure, some folks leveled faster… but the level scaling adjusted that within reason. A few of the really lucky or dedicated had the fancy animations from Legendary weapons. I can live with that.

However, the ‘gear treadmill’ is so horrible; unless you can join and keep up with it… there is no reason to play. If Ascended gear just looked cooler than exotics… that’d be fine. As a casual player who puts in as much time as I can and work a 50 hour/week job… then kudos for them. I don’t begrudge anyone a cosmetic reward for their time.

However, it’s a given- whom-ever I complete against in Wv3 or PVP or PvE (fractals) I’m always at a disadvantage because I’m a working, tax-paying professional. Time is money… pay to win… spend the most time grinding… you automatically have a huge (stat/ability) advantage in any aspect in the game. It’s not about strategy or game-play but mostly gear.

GW2 over… unless you are underage, student, or a retiree.

It’s a nice game; but from my perspective and circumstance… it’s a done deal. I’m just waiting for the next game.

Dhar.6392:

First- I did not bother to read every single post. Most of the first did not revolve around the topic at all.

I did not play GW1; I just didn’t. I think I was playing Rift at the time. However, I remember quite a few posts about GW2 would not be pay to win… that store bought stuff would be cosmetic only.

Bear with me.

This is the tenet that made GW2 exciting to me. In my context as a working professional… “Time is Money”. So a game that rewards more time spent (grinding)… is essentially pay to win… no different than if you spent $1000 on gems and where able to buy precursors etc from the store.

GW2 was fun at Launch because we were all competing on roughly the same level… Sure, some folks leveled faster… but the level scaling adjusted that within reason. A few of the really lucky or dedicated had the fancy animations from Legendary weapons. I can live with that.

However, the ‘gear treadmill’ is so horrible; but unless you can join and keep up with it… there is no reason to play. If Ascended gear just looked cooler than exotics… that’d be fine. As a casual player who puts in as much time as I can and work a 50 hour job… then kudos for them. I don’t begrudge anyone a cosmetic reward for their time.

However, it’s a given- whom-ever I complete against in Wv3 or PVP or PvE (fractals) I’m always at a disadvantage because I’m a working, tax-paying professional. Time is money… pay to win… spend the most time grinding… you automatically have a huge (stat/ability) advantage in any aspect in the game. It’s not about strategy or game-play but mostly gear.

GW2 over… unless you are underage, student, or a retiree.

It’s a nice game; but from my perspective and circumstance… it’s a done deal. I’m just waiting for the next game.

I’m only going to reply to the post right above mine, it’s unlikely that reading the rest of the thread is going to be very exciting

Being that I also have a full time job, I’m glad you were able to move on. It sounds like MMORPGs are just not for you.

I’m glad GW2’s original premise prompted you to try an MMORPG in the first place, though. I do want to let you know that GW2 actually followed through (mostly), in that it is in fact one of the lightest ‘gear treadmills’ in the genre, to the point where I would even say that there is no gear treadmill. I will not start with the WoW comparisons or the like – there’s probably a good reason why you chose not to play that game – but to say that GW2 is all the way on the casual end of the spectrum when it comes to equipment stats is no overstatement.

If you felt the gear progression in GW2 was too much of a time burden, then I genuinely suggest that you look into a different type of game. Games should never become a strain on your life, personal or otherwise. Good luck.

Use of the word compete in Guild Wars 2 is interesting, because it’s not really a competitive game. Of course in SPvP, there is no ascended gear at all, and that remains “pure” for lack of a better word.

WvW was never meant to be balanced for 1v1 and there are zillions of factors that affect how you do there, having little to do with either your stats or build.

PvE isn’t competitive in this game. It’s just not. Ascended gear makes no difference in PvE unless you’re doing the higher level fractals. If you have the time to do that, you’ll get ascended gear.

It really is that simple.

Xenon.4537:

Well I normally play a game for the fun of it. I think it’s actually abnormal to play a game for any other reason. Although somewhere along the line “fun” and “gear progression” became the same thing to most MMO players. For traditional MMO players, GW2 is a disappointment in this regard. I feel bad for those people. I feel worse for GW2. I wish more of my friends were in to it as much as me.

This may come as a shock, but some people actually enjoy getting better gear for their characters. I mean, you don’t go through the whole game in starter gear, so why is it that at max level you don’t want better stuff?

No gear grind is an admirable goal. but what did Anet replace it with? Simply eliminating things is not visionary or progressive, you have to come up with something new. If you want to reinvent the wheel, getting rid of it is only the first step.

Anglvamp.5632:

Xenon.4537:

Well I normally play a game for the fun of it. I think it’s actually abnormal to play a game for any other reason. Although somewhere along the line “fun” and “gear progression” became the same thing to most MMO players. For traditional MMO players, GW2 is a disappointment in this regard. I feel bad for those people. I feel worse for GW2. I wish more of my friends were in to it as much as me.

This may come as a shock, but some people actually enjoy getting better gear for their characters. I mean, you don’t go through the whole game in starter gear, so why is it that at max level you don’t want better stuff?

No gear grind is an admirable goal. but what did Anet replace it with? Simply eliminating things is not visionary or progressive, you have to come up with something new. If you want to reinvent the wheel, getting rid of it is only the first step.

And some people don’t. It doesn’t seem to me that people who like it have been ignored by developers. People who don’t like it have been ignored.

There are obviously enough people who don’t like it floating around to deserve a game of our own, no?

We can go back and forth over “some people do, some people don’t” Anet is going to go with what makes them the most money.

If you enjoy the game as it is, and they add something to it, what have you lost? You can continue enjoying it exactly the same as you have before, but now other people can enjoy it in other ways and more people are happy and more money is made.

It’s nice that you think that people who like it have gotten enough, clearly they don’t think so or they wouldn’t be asking for more. How is it obvious that enough people who don’t like it are floating around? What have they done to “deserve” a game of their own?

Unless you are sitting at level 80 with your starting gear stats, then you have already jumped on the gear bandwagon.

Anglvamp.5632:

We can go back and forth over “some people do, some people don’t” Anet is going to go with what makes them the most money.

If you enjoy the game as it is, and they add something to it, what have you lost? You can continue enjoying it exactly the same as you have before, but now other people can enjoy it in other ways and more people are happy and more money is made.

It’s nice that you think that people who like it have gotten enough, clearly they don’t think so or they wouldn’t be asking for more. How is it obvious that enough people who don’t like it are floating around? What have they done to “deserve” a game of their own?

Unless you are sitting at level 80 with your starting gear stats, then you have already jumped on the gear bandwagon.

You seem to be missing the point. Some changes are changes that would ruin the game for people with a different play style.

Right now, I can go anywhere, do anything, SEE anything. Even if I don’t get to the higher level fractals (I’m on 20 now), I can see every fractal without ascended gear. I can see every dungeon.

But if I have to get more people together to get into something like a raid, I might not ever be able to see that content. And I want to see content.

The game gives people freedom because without ascended gear, without even exotic gear, you can do everything in the game. And Guild Wars 1 was the same way. People loved the game for that reason. The game was expected to have very little vertical progression. People bought the game for that reason.

Some people have tons of time. Some people have lives. They leave the game for a period of time and when they come back they want to be able to play with their friends.

But if you put in gear progression, where certain content is cordoned off by what gear you have, you end up in a situation where more casual players will no longer be able to play with their friends. Those people will eventually become disenfranchised and leave.

You’re making the assumption that putting in certain features wouldn’t affect other people playing. It’s a bad assumption.

And you seem to keep changing the point. Originally Xenon made the point that he liked playing for fun and indicated that people who played for gear didn’t do so because it was fun, I responded to that saying people do indeed like to gear for fun.

Now it seems to be that any form of gear progression automatically means giant raids that will keep you from content.

My point was, people enjoy getting better gear for their characters, and unless you are still in your starting gear, you do too.

No where did I say anything about raids. No where did I say anything about gating content. All I did was suggest that some people (( IE every single person who ever changes anything about their character )) might not be completely happy with the starting gear.

Horizontal progression is great, I love it. Vertical progression is great too, it was great for 80 levels, why is level 81 anathema?

Anglvamp.5632:

And you seem to keep changing the point. Originally Xenon made the point that he liked playing for fun and indicated that people who played for gear didn’t do so because it was fun, I responded to that saying people do indeed like to gear for fun.

Now it seems to be that any form of gear progression automatically means giant raids that will keep you from content.

My point was, people enjoy getting better gear for their characters, and unless you are still in your starting gear, you do too.

No where did I say anything about raids. No where did I say anything about gating content. All I did was suggest that some people (( IE every single person who ever changes anything about their character )) might not be completely happy with the starting gear.

Horizontal progression is great, I love it. Vertical progression is great too, it was great for 80 levels, why is level 81 anathema?

Again you seem to forget how many people don’t even like it for 80 levels. In Guild Wars 1 you could level to max level in one day.

And vertical progression comes with an entire set of problems, including gear creep.

I would be in favor of character progression that didn’t depend on gear grind…but it would have to be done very very carefully.

Again, ignore my point and just make up your own, please, its lots of fun.

If you don’t like leveling, why are you playing a game with levels? What form of progression is there where your character doesn’t change? Should we all have the same class and skills? Should all skills be the same?

To me, it sounds like you want stagnation. Start the game with everything, never get a different weapon. All things do 0-1 point of damage. Perhaps there shouldn’t even be hills? Just one flat level playing field.

If one skill happens to be better than another then you’ll have that dreaded vertical progression, right?

Anglvamp.5632:

Again, ignore my point and just make up your own, please, its lots of fun.

If you don’t like leveling, why are you playing a game with levels? What form of progression is there where your character doesn’t change? Should we all have the same class and skills? Should all skills be the same?

To me, it sounds like you want stagnation. Start the game with everything, never get a different weapon. All things do 0-1 point of damage. Perhaps there shouldn’t even be hills? Just one flat level playing field.

If one skill happens to be better than another then you’ll have that dreaded vertical progression, right?

I don’t want stagnation. I don’t want stat creep either. My games are moved forward by experiences. By stories and events.

In Guild Wars 1, what happened in the world after was what made progression. The same is true in most RPG games.

Gear progression isn’t progress. Gear progression is a backwards step, made popular by pay to play MMOs that require people to KEEP PLAYING. It’s completely artificial.

I’ve been a fantasy fan for most of my life. I don’t remember Gandalf constantly getting new robes or a new staff. Maybe once, after he fought the Balrog, but that’s it. And sure the occasional weapon is quite nice.

But don’t confuse stagnation with not liking a specific type of progress.

And yes, I’m not necessarily a big fan of levels either. I’d prefer if there were no levels. Progression should be skill progression or story progression, rather than gear progression….but that’s just my opinion.

On the other hand, it’s also what Anet basically sold the game on.

I’m pretty sure if you went to a vegetarian restaurant and everyone was trying to get them to serve meat, you’d be pretty against it.

You don’t remember Gandalf the Grey becoming Gandalf the White? You don’t remember him picking up Glamdring after fighting the trolls? Bilbo getting Sting, then the One Ring, his mithril coat. The Fellowship getting elven cloaks and other gear to help them in their quest after fighting through the Mines of Moria.

So, we’ve set a lower limit of at least one weapon upgrade, is two bad then? Why?

Gear progression IS progress, progress being defined by being in the word progression. And being an addition, moving on from where you were.

Levels are there to provide a way to progress your character. You don’t like it, fine, you’re welcome to your opinion. YOU seem to be forgetting that some people do like levels. And since levels are already in the game, gear progression is in as well, and therefor so is stat creep.

Why would someone design a game to NOT be played? Guess what, Anet wants their game to be played too. And guess what else is in GW2, gear progression. Level 1 gear is vastly different from level 80 gear.

If Anet sold this game on just skill and story progression and no gear progression, then they owe people some money. You get gear through doing story and events. Skills are gained through levels and events, but all those things are there.

Lastly, I’d have no problem in your restaurant situation because I like meat. You don’t know me or my reasons, please don’t act like you do. If everyone in a restaurant wanted meat to be served, it would be a good idea for the owners to serve meat.

Anglvamp.5632:

You don’t remember Gandalf the Grey becoming Gandalf the White? You don’t remember him picking up Glamdring after fighting the trolls? Bilbo getting Sting, then the One Ring, his mithril coat. The Fellowship getting elven cloaks and other gear to help them in their quest after fighting through the Mines of Moria.

So, we’ve set a lower limit of at least one weapon upgrade, is two bad then? Why?

Gear progression IS progress, progress being defined by being in the word progression. And being an addition, moving on from where you were.

Levels are there to provide a way to progress your character. You don’t like it, fine, you’re welcome to your opinion. YOU seem to be forgetting that some people do like levels. And since levels are already in the game, gear progression is in as well, and therefor so is stat creep.

Why would someone design a game to NOT be played? Guess what, Anet wants their game to be played too. And guess what else is in GW2, gear progression. Level 1 gear is vastly different from level 80 gear.

If Anet sold this game on just skill and story progression and no gear progression, then they owe people some money. You get gear through doing story and events. Skills are gained through levels and events, but all those things are there.

Lastly, I’d have no problem in your restaurant situation because I like meat. You don’t know me or my reasons, please don’t act like you do. If everyone in a restaurant wanted meat to be served, it would be a good idea for the owners to serve meat.

Sure I remember Gandalf getting ONE upgrade. That’s not gear grind. I didn’t say I didn’t want gear. I said I didn’t want constant gear progression.

Finding something is cool. Finding something (or having to find something constantly) is no longer cool. It’s the different between something you have to do all the time and something that you get incidentally is huge.

Gandalf found glamdring..he didn’t grind for it.

He fought for it so he could face greater challenges. this is exactly why I enjoy gear progression.

If finding one thing is cool, why is finding two things the worst thing ever?

Where did I mention grinding?

Anglvamp.5632:

He fought for it so he could face greater challenges. this is exactly why I enjoy gear progression.

If finding one thing is cool, why is finding two things the worst thing ever?

Where did I mention grinding?

Gear progression never ends. In the end it’s not you that’s powerful it’s your gear.

It’s the difference between having a day out picking apples an an orchard, or working as a farm hand. One of them is work.

So what if someone enjoys picking apples?

Ending is stagnation and death.

Clearly this is an quantity issue with you. So you use the starting gear, right? Or perhaps you run your character around naked, since gear could be more powerful than you.

Anglvamp.5632:

So what if someone enjoys picking apples?

Ending is stagnation and death.

Clearly this is an quantity issue with you. So you use the starting gear, right? Or perhaps you run your character around naked, since gear could be more powerful than you.

No it’s not a quantity issue. It’s a question of what you get by doing something naturally, ie, just by playing, and what you get by having to work/grind for it. Voluntary grind is fine. Required grind…not so much.

And you can’t really have gear progression in a game without gear grind, or you end up with endless leveling.

Can you name an MMO that has gear progression without gear grind…cause I can’t.

So GW2 does have gear grind? Your gear has progressed from what it was at level one, therefore you’ve had to grind.

My point still remains, from the beginning, that what Xenon was attempting to describe as odious, I am trying to point out that some people actually enjoy. People do volunteer for that kind of thing.

Anglvamp.5632:

So GW2 does have gear grind? Your gear has progressed from what it was at level one, therefore you’ve had to grind.

My point still remains, from the beginning, that what Xenon was attempting to describe as odious, I am trying to point out that some people actually enjoy. People do volunteer for that kind of thing.

You can’t just change the direction of a game that was primarily sold on certain points because SOME people like other things. It’s just not the right thing to do.

Do you know how many people actually walked away from this game because ascended gear was released? You can’t be completely unaware of the backlash of that decision.

That’s the problem in a nutshell. Not whether or not gear grind is good or bad, or enjoyable or not. Anet wanted to make a certain game…and tried to make a certain game. They talked about a certain game.

Ascended gear is riding the line of what people will accept. Adding more gear grind is not going to make the core player base of this game happier, because the game was sold to not have that.

I don’t know how else I can say it.

I do wonder how many characters these dedicated GW fans have at level 80. Must be a lot, since surely they have hit the ceiling most of us are collectively complaining about as well, but seem to not be bothered by complete stagnation at all.

Dangerkips.6035:

I do wonder how many characters these dedicated GW fans have at level 80. Must be a lot, since surely they have hit the ceiling most of us are collectively complaining about as well, but seem to not be bothered by complete stagnation at all.

Define stagnation.

Some of us are progressing through content. That’s a form of progress.

And there are plenty of people for whom the journey is just as if not more important than the destination.

In fact, sometimes, I think the most stagnant people are those who constantly compete. There’s more than one way to be stagnant.

Come on Vayne, I like you because you’re always polite, but you have to come up with something better than argueing semantics man.

I have no idea about how many people left over it because I DO NOT CARE.

My point, that you again completely avoided, is that some people DO enjoy gear progression.

I’m not going to change anything, if Anet decides to change the direction of the game, like they already have, then that is up to them and nothing you or I say will change that fact. They can talk about a game they want to make all they like. Every company does the same thing. The actual product is always going to be a compromise.

There is gear grinding in the game, you have said it yourself in the ascended gear. Grinding out tokens for dungeon gear is a grind, you’re doing the same activity over and over. Clearly the direction has been changed, or it was that direction in the first place. That gear is riding the line of what SOME people will accept. You don’t speak for the core player base, only yourself.

Will adding more make some people unhappy, probably, I am sure at least one person will be. Will more be made happy, possibly, but I don’t have any numbers, I just know of at least one person that will be happy.

Dangerkips.6035:

Come on Vayne, I like you because you’re always polite, but you have to come up with something better than argueing semantics man.

Well no. He has to come up better with something than using the word stagnation which doesn’t mean what he’s trying to say.

He’s saying if you don’t get better stats, you’re stagnating. I don’t know about him but I get better at the game all the time. There are different challenges.

Most recently there’s a new dungeon that’s particularly difficult for some people, including me. I get better at it every time I do it…so I’m not stagnating, am I?

The use of the word stagnating in this case shows that the person using it is attached to a specific form of progression and no other progression will do for this person.

I’ve spent years playing RPGs on computers and most of them aren’t centered on gear progression. They’re centered on experiences within the game. This includes popular games like Skyrim.

Edit: I’m not the one who used the word stagnation, but it’s actually being used an an attack. You don’t want THIS type of progression so you must like stagnation. It’s a bullkitten argument.

Anglvamp.5632:

It’s nice that you think that people who like it have gotten enough, clearly they don’t think so or they wouldn’t be asking for more. How is it obvious that enough people who don’t like it are floating around? What have they done to “deserve” a game of their own?

How about they bought multiple MMOs just to fall behind over and over again so much that they ended up cut out of the content. Only 5% of WoW players have seen the end game.

Was invited and played this weekends FFXIV: ARR beta test.

I see no reason to open GW2 anymore.

It is worth mentioning that this game was designed to expand on build and alt making. Never ending gear progression limits how many builds on how many alts many will have access too. Never ending aesthetic progression and collecting was the driving force behind this games model.

Mirta.5029:

Anglvamp.5632:

It’s nice that you think that people who like it have gotten enough, clearly they don’t think so or they wouldn’t be asking for more. How is it obvious that enough people who don’t like it are floating around? What have they done to “deserve” a game of their own?

How about they bought multiple MMOs just to fall behind over and over again so much that they ended up cut out of the content. Only 5% of WoW players have seen the end game.

Other people have also bought other games. I have bought multiple games, do I not deserve a “game of my own”? Do you have official numbers to back up this 5%?

I’ve seen the end game in plenty of games, its not that hard to get into if you really want to.

And this still does not negate my point that some people do indeed enjoy gear progression.

Anglvamp.5632:

Mirta.5029:

Anglvamp.5632:

It’s nice that you think that people who like it have gotten enough, clearly they don’t think so or they wouldn’t be asking for more. How is it obvious that enough people who don’t like it are floating around? What have they done to “deserve” a game of their own?

How about they bought multiple MMOs just to fall behind over and over again so much that they ended up cut out of the content. Only 5% of WoW players have seen the end game.

Other people have also bought other games. I have bought multiple games, do I not deserve a “game of my own”? Do you have official numbers to back up this 5%?

I’ve seen the end game in plenty of games, its not that hard to get into if you really want to.

And this still does not negate my point that some people do indeed enjoy gear progression.

The number comes from an interview with Ghostcrawler, one of the WoW devs. Only 5% of the population has seen the hardest content, according to that interview. One would think he would know.

Anglvamp.5632:

Other people have also bought other games. I have bought multiple games, do I not deserve a “game of my own”?

Yet most games do cater to people that like gear grind. GW is one of the only franchises that does not. Are you saying that every game has to be catered to a specific audience alone?

Do you have official numbers to back up this 5%?

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/4720925#4720925 the amount of people that completed the raids used to be really low. Read the numbers that people used to provide from wowprogress in 2012.