Guild Wars 2

In light of all the negative threads,GW2 is awesome!! ^^.

It is…it really is… Regardless of what the haters say, it is still the best MMO on the market right now.

Cheers!

shwing. yes it is!

(That’s all i have to say)..

As the saying goes, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”

Burnfall.9573:

(That’s all i have to say)..

As the saying goes, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”

Yeah, but Beholders can cast an anti-magic shell and get like 8 attacks/round. Kinda hard to argue with that.

Guild Wars 2 is loaded with bugs, deviates from its core (“Manifesto”) philosophy more than it should and is in need of a lot more iteration, and it’s still the best game I’ve ever played.

I think that’s pretty awesome.

Galtrix.7369:

Onshidesigns.1069:

Galtrix.7369:

Ashabhi.1365:

It is…it really is… Regardless of what the haters say, it is still the best MMO on the market right now.

Cheers!

Wow* is the best MMO on the market right now.

Most of the game is DEAD!

So is Guild Wars 2 by your logic. I dare you to guest to Gate of Madness and try to find a single person that isn’t in LA within a 24 hour timespan. You can’t do it. Does that mean gw2 is dead? No.

I transferred to TC long ago. Maybe you should change servers.

Game really is amazing.

I don’t know if I’d call Guild Wars 2 amazing. It may feel amazing because most MMOs suck badly. I think it’s pretty good, though. It needs to get a lot better before it’s amazing to me.

I like the game too

Gizmo.9178:

Game is great. Nothing wrong with complaints as it helps with improvement. If nobody complained the game would be a complete money grabber with nothing going for it.

Yes and no . Complaining for complaint sake is pointless and achieves nothing . Constructive criticism is another story . Unfortunately constructive criticism is the exception not the rule on this forum

Jack of Tears.9458:

Burnfall.9573:

(That’s all i have to say)..

As the saying goes, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”

Yeah, but Beholders can cast an anti-magic shell and get like 8 attacks/round. Kinda hard to argue with that.

I just had to log in and say well done!

Onshidesigns.1069:

Galtrix.7369:

Onshidesigns.1069:

Galtrix.7369:

Ashabhi.1365:

It is…it really is… Regardless of what the haters say, it is still the best MMO on the market right now.

Cheers!

Wow* is the best MMO on the market right now.

Most of the game is DEAD!

So is Guild Wars 2 by your logic. I dare you to guest to Gate of Madness and try to find a single person that isn’t in LA within a 24 hour timespan. You can’t do it. Does that mean gw2 is dead? No.

I transferred to TC long ago. Maybe you should change servers.

I know the OP has stated many time he/she does not play the game. I think I remember the same from the poster you answered. Switching servers is not what they want to hear. Don’t really know what they want actually.

Galtrix.7369:

Ashabhi.1365:

It is…it really is… Regardless of what the haters say, it is still the best MMO on the market right now.

Cheers!

Wow* is the best MMO on the market right now.

Do not worry, ascended armor is coming and you will pretty soon change your opinion!

yea, it is awsome.. i quited the game for like 1.5-2 months and i really cant find a game that fits my style and what i like. so i started gw2 again yesterday and yea i still enjoy it, there are some things that can be done better and some new cool content like 1v1 arena’s but yea it still a cool mmo to play. i back on the gw2 fan list taking a break can be verry good :p

Just dropping in to show some GW2 love. <3

I wouldn’t describe it as awesome, but I’m still here at the moment.

It’s OKish, could and should be much better.

I’m sticking around just until something else comes along.

Lol…

WoW is better, GW1 is better, Mario is better, Zelda is better, Solitare is better, Pong is better, PacMan is better.

Who the hell cares? You either like Guild Wars 2 or you don’t. If you like Guild Wars 2 then you will play it, if you like another game over this one, go play that. Answer is simple.

Galtrix, you are trying to compare a veteran MMO to a “freshy”. GW2 is the rookie in the market.

Do you compare a veteran quarterback to a rookie? I hope not. You learn from the veterans and try to bring your own “flavor” to the table.

chokes on her coffee

Dear Gods the OP is trying to kill me.

Considering you posted this:

xephire.8324:

no.no.Definitely no.Move on nothing to see in this game its terrible.

less than 24 hours ago. That’s an amazing about face all of the sudden.

I have a very hard time taking the OP as being sincere considering his numerous less than positive posts regarding the game.

The sarcasm is strong with this one…

Red Falcon.8257:

Some people will continue to prefer cheap wine even after making them taste elaborated qualities of wine.

Best not be knocking boxed wine.

GW2 is fun, I wouldn’t call it awesome. I always cringe at threads like these because I know it will bring in more hate than hate threads :P

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Red Falcon.8257:

Some people will continue to prefer cheap wine even after making them taste elaborated qualities of wine.

Best not be knocking boxed wine.

GW2 is fun, I wouldn’t call it awesome. I always cringe at threads like these because I know it will bring in more hate than hate threads :P

The OP believes this as well. It is why he wrote it.

You’re right. Forum names just start to bleed together, and I forgot to check history :P

minbariguy.7504:

Adine.2184:

Yes and no . Complaining for complaint sake is pointless and achieves nothing . Constructive criticism is another story . Unfortunately constructive criticism is the exception not the rule on this forum

While I see your point, I’d argue that blindly praising the game for the sake of praising it is equally worthless, and achieves an equal amount of nothing. It provides absolutely no constructive feedback to let ANet know what, specifically, they are doing right.

Non-constructive praise isn’t any more worthwhile than non-constructive criticism.

Nonconstructive praise is about as useful as yet another dungeon path for a supposedly open world focused content patch called LS.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

chokes on her coffee

Dear Gods the OP is trying to kill me.

Considering you posted this:

xephire.8324:

no.no.Definitely no.Move on nothing to see in this game its terrible.

less than 24 hours ago. That’s an amazing about face all of the sudden.

I have a very hard time taking the OP as being sincere considering his numerous less than positive posts regarding the game.

The sarcasm is strong with this one…

Pats Lanfear on back

This post is not worth choking on your coffee, miss. But thanks for pointing out the OP’s views

Antara.3189:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

chokes on her coffee

Dear Gods the OP is trying to kill me.

Considering you posted this:

xephire.8324:

no.no.Definitely no.Move on nothing to see in this game its terrible.

less than 24 hours ago. That’s an amazing about face all of the sudden.

I have a very hard time taking the OP as being sincere considering his numerous less than positive posts regarding the game.

The sarcasm is strong with this one…

Pats Lanfear on back

This post is not worth choking on your coffee, miss. But thanks for pointing out the OP’s views

Just disturbingly surprised was all. See, I knew I shouldn’t have taken that drink while pulling up the forums!

And np, I thought recognized the name, I had to verify before I pounced though.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Antara.3189:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

chokes on her coffee

Dear Gods the OP is trying to kill me.

Considering you posted this:

xephire.8324:

no.no.Definitely no.Move on nothing to see in this game its terrible.

less than 24 hours ago. That’s an amazing about face all of the sudden.

I have a very hard time taking the OP as being sincere considering his numerous less than positive posts regarding the game.

The sarcasm is strong with this one…

Pats Lanfear on back

This post is not worth choking on your coffee, miss. But thanks for pointing out the OP’s views

Just disturbingly surprised was all. See, I knew I shouldn’t have taken that drink while pulling up the forums!

And np, I thought recognized the name, I had to verify before I pounced though.

When getting on these forums, you have to close your eyes and take a sip that way you don’t see anything… absurd.

On point though,
There is nothing wrong with having negative & positive views in different posts, but as long as their not condescending to each other. I for one, have different views depending on the topic discussion.

As an overall game, Guild Wars 2 offers a lot. I say this because you get constant support and feature updates even though the game was a one time fee. Sure, there are some cash-shop limits (Bank Storage, mining picks, etc), but if you compare the support and feature updates to another one-time purchase game, I’d say it’s a bang for your buck.

I personally put money into the Cash-Shop for two reasons, First and foremost, I want something that Gems offer, and two, I like to support the team hard at work.

I don’t particularly agree in some of the ideals or directions, but that’s why I’m on these forums. I want to share my opinion to everyone else who is passionate, and also give the Devs some insight on what I didn’t care for.

Antara.3189:

When getting on these forums, you have to close your eyes and take a sip that way you don’t see anything… absurd.

lol I’ll keep that in mind

On point though,
There is nothing wrong with having negative & positive views in different posts, but as long as their not condescending to each other. I for one, have different views depending on the topic discussion.

As an overall game, Guild Wars 2 offers a lot. I say this because you get constant support and feature updates even though the game was a one time fee. Sure, there are some cash-shop limits (Bank Storage, mining picks, etc), but if you compare the support and feature updates to another one-time purchase game, I’d say it’s a bang for your buck.

I personally put money into the Cash-Shop for two reasons, First and foremost, I want something that Gems offer, and two, I like to support the team hard at work.

I don’t particularly agree in some of the ideals or directions, but that’s why I’m on these forums. I want to share my opinion to everyone else who is passionate, and also give the Devs some insight on what I didn’t care for.

Right, just because a person agrees with one aspect, doesn’t mean he or she will agree with all aspects, and in some cases may have mixed feelings all together. Nothing wrong with that, like you pointed out. I’m the same way.

However, in the case of the OP, the majority of his posts are overwhelmingly negative (I’ve fought with him a few times on various topics), which was what was so surprising when I saw the post. Thought maybe I was thinking of the wrong person, so I went to check his post history. To have him suddenly have a change of heart…yeah…don’t think so. It could happen….but Hell could freeze over theoretically too…

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Antara.3189:

When getting on these forums, you have to close your eyes and take a sip that way you don’t see anything… absurd.

lol I’ll keep that in mind

On point though,
There is nothing wrong with having negative & positive views in different posts, but as long as their not condescending to each other. I for one, have different views depending on the topic discussion.

As an overall game, Guild Wars 2 offers a lot. I say this because you get constant support and feature updates even though the game was a one time fee. Sure, there are some cash-shop limits (Bank Storage, mining picks, etc), but if you compare the support and feature updates to another one-time purchase game, I’d say it’s a bang for your buck.

I personally put money into the Cash-Shop for two reasons, First and foremost, I want something that Gems offer, and two, I like to support the team hard at work.

I don’t particularly agree in some of the ideals or directions, but that’s why I’m on these forums. I want to share my opinion to everyone else who is passionate, and also give the Devs some insight on what I didn’t care for.

Right, just because a person agrees with one aspect, doesn’t mean he or she will agree with all aspects, and in some cases may have mixed feelings all together. Nothing wrong with that, like you pointed out. I’m the same way.

However, in the case of the OP, the majority of his posts are overwhelmingly negative (I’ve fought with him a few times on various topics), which was what was so surprising when I saw the post. Thought maybe I was thinking of the wrong person, so I went to check his post history. To have him suddenly have a change of heart…yeah…don’t think so. It could happen….but Hell could freeze over theoretically too…

Maybe he sought a cleansing from Dwayna last night? A new beginning?

Yargesh.4965:

I believe he thought he would produce a rage-storm of ‘no this game sucks!’. It did not happen so I could be wrong.

True, the only one that truly knows the OP’s intent is the OP.

Antara.3189:

Maybe he sought a cleansing from Dwayna last night? A new beginning?

lmao …. thank you. I suddenly have this mental image of Dwayna chasing him around and beating him with a really big stick. One of those “Oh I’ll cleanse you alright” moments…

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Ashabhi.1365:

It is…it really is… Regardless of what the haters say, it is still the best MMO on the market right now.

Cheers!

Wow* is the best MMO on the market right now.

No, WoW is the most successful MMO, doesn’t make it the best, any more than Big Brother is the best show on TV because it has a lot of viewers.

In fact, arguably the most popular stuff is never really the best. It’s often the worst.

Big Brother? is that a reality show? how does anyone watch that crap? “okay lets just put 10 strangers in one house(really scripted acting) and see what happens”

WoW rode on the success of its predecessors. The revenue they made from this success was put into overhead which got even more non-gamers (commercials and celebrity sellouts,(I am looking at you Mr. T)).

I’ve tried just about every MMOs created on this planet, some not even translated into English, and I must say that GW2’s gameplay overall is light years ahead.

The fact that I can still have a blast playing a lvl 30 dungeon a year after I’ve completed is just brilliant game design.

I also love the fact that this game does not allow “Inspect gear” on other players,

My exotic gear set from a year ago is completely viable (in fact, now its worth MORE on TP)

Action oriented combat system, which also allows anybody to ressurect ANY players during combat,

The list just goes on and on…

I have concluded that Guild Wars 2 is the only MMO that was not designed to exploit gamers with thick wallets.

I concur with the OP. Sure the game will always have room to grow and mature in, but still pretty kitten good.

I won’t say I LOVE gw2, but like many things about it. I would LOVE it if it had an overall epic storyline besides your PS that all players can play along the line of gw1 missions. those were great and having mission bonuses added an interesting spin to it. Also having them as Zaishan challenges was a great idea, it kept ppl interested in doing them and making the whole game viable.

Aside from that, some of the much needed polishes and QoL would do wonders to make me enjoy gw2 more.
But overall, i think it’s a great game and i still have great hope it will only get better as Anet gets more and more experience.

But one thing that is really needed right now, is opening of Tyria, more maps, more story etc. for most of us who have been lvl 80 for a long time, the existing world feels smaller and smaller every day and as much as i love the world we have, it’s becoming a bit tiring seeing the same old places and nothing new on the horizon.

i played a lot :P too much!! need to uninstall

dcypher.2590:

Emotes, chat bubbles, chairs you can sit in, tables you can flip, mounts you can give people rides on, transmog so you can alter your appearance, a barber shop, I mean come on….a catastrophe at RPG?

Those all sound like horrible things to judge a game on. Good or bad.

My opinion on GW2. It has the foundation to be a solid 10. An amazing game. But to me right now with temp content, and 2-week minigames with bugs, gear grinding, dailies, farming, no incentive to PvP, bad ranking in WvW etc.

The devs are taking a piece of art and banging it on the wall repeatedly. It is so painful to watch. But I do have hope. I like what they did with Tequatl and I like the most recent perm dungeon patch.

I hope they keep up with this perma content and get rid of the temp mini-games. Then the game can become what it should.

Xcom.1926:

My opinion on GW2. It has the foundation to be a solid 10. An amazing game. But to me right now with temp content, and 2-week minigames with bugs, gear grinding, dailies, farming, no incentive to PvP, bad ranking in WvW etc.

The devs are taking a piece of art and banging it on the wall repeatedly. It is so painful to watch. But I do have hope. I like what they did with Tequatl and I like the most recent perm dungeon patch.

I hope they keep up with this perma content and get rid of the temp mini-games. Then the game can become what it should.

If they got rid of the mini stuff and kept the dungeons, they’d probably lose more people than if they got rid of the dungeons and kept the minigame stuff.

Most people don’t really want challenging content, even though they say they do.

Vayne.8563:

Xcom.1926:

My opinion on GW2. It has the foundation to be a solid 10. An amazing game. But to me right now with temp content, and 2-week minigames with bugs, gear grinding, dailies, farming, no incentive to PvP, bad ranking in WvW etc.

The devs are taking a piece of art and banging it on the wall repeatedly. It is so painful to watch. But I do have hope. I like what they did with Tequatl and I like the most recent perm dungeon patch.

I hope they keep up with this perma content and get rid of the temp mini-games. Then the game can become what it should.

If they got rid of the mini stuff and kept the dungeons, they’d probably lose more people than if they got rid of the dungeons and kept the minigame stuff.

Most people don’t really want challenging content, even though they say they do.

No one said challenging, and I disagree with you on this. I do see them shifting away from the mini-game content. And giving players more content like Tequatl and TA.

Xcom.1926:

My opinion on GW2. It has the foundation to be a solid 10. An amazing game. But to me right now with temp content, and 2-week minigames with bugs, gear grinding, dailies, farming, no incentive to PvP, bad ranking in WvW etc.

The devs are taking a piece of art and banging it on the wall repeatedly. It is so painful to watch. But I do have hope. I like what they did with Tequatl and I like the most recent perm dungeon patch.

I hope they keep up with this perma content and get rid of the temp mini-games. Then the game can become what it should.

Effort to consistently keep things dynamic and non-linear gets flak. Adding a mere extra tier of gear that grants a very slight advantage. Flak. Comparing it with WoW or other MMOs. More flak. Adding cosmetics that’s listed on gem store. Called greedy and non-player focused and more money focused. The endless list goes on.

Good God, what will it take the appease the masses? If they made it permanent content for every living story, someone’s gonna complain that they wanna see changes in the World of Tyria from a certain time frame. If they extend the LS content, someone’s gonna complain about how it’s too long and that people would complete all the achievements in under 2 weeks and that logging in daily is but a boring grind for dailies/monthlies etc.

And relating to some earlier comments about only pressing 1 and winning, you must be kidding me. I seem to use all keys for combat, from combat skills to all the utility and elite skills. I also main a ranger so I have to micro manage my pet(s) too. If you’re bored with Zerg fests, how about some of you come guest on low pop servers like DR for a change and use that opportunity to engage in more exciting combat where trains are not as large, if any at all.

There’s always a viable solution out there in the game if you’re not happy about something. Just take a step back and meditate on what you’re looking for. If you simply can’t think of any, I’d say you burned through all the main content, have spent no less than 800 hours in total and are highly loot driven. Best thing to do at this point is take a break from the game for a month or so, play other MMOs or other games and when you feel that pull to come back, I’m fairly certain you’ll appreciate a lot better all the finer points this game has to offer.

Tl;dr – I disagree that this game is inferior to any other MMOs out there, nor is it something that one can simply declare that trumps other games of its genre. Stop using metas to justify your points. Just play the game and interact with other players while you’re at it.

You’re never going to convince someone who loved what WoW offered that there is anything wrong with it. However, the fact that it had as many subs as it did for as long as it did does not necessarily correlate with quality. Whether WoW had quality is certainly subjective, in the realm of personal preference rather than anything objective. I hated a lot of the mechanics in WoW, to the point where if I see them in a new game, I tend to lose interest in that game fast. Both Rift and tOR lost me as a result.

Whether GW2 has quality or is a good game is also subjective. Now that we’ve established that, my take is that GW2 has some good features, but is plagued by a number of design failures and/or bad features.

Some examples of the good features:

• Lack of node ownership and mob tagging
• So few skills root characters/quasi action combat
• World graphics
• Dynamic event system
• Material storage & deposit collectibles
• Sell on the TP from anywhere
• Cash shop items (the items — including the RNG ones that I despise — are neither required to have fun nor game-breaking)

Some examples of the bad:

• Skill design and balancing is based around sPvP; sPvP damage is primarily sustain with some burst, while PvE damage is primarily burst with sustain coming only from large numbers of mobs; in other words, the game modes are not the same, but the balance is based primarily on one mode
• Anet designed a DoT system that manages to make conditions OP versus players while being almost completely ineffective in large group play – which most of the endgame seems to be about
• RNG cash shop items; some people seem to have no problem with these, and I guess that’s fine, but I don’t buy things where I have a chance to get what I intended to buy
• ANet’s communications with the customer base leave something to be desired

Note: neither list is intended to be comprehensive

Vayne.8563:

Do you remember adventure games where you actually had to find stuff without arrows and stars? Because I do.

Absolutely and I loved me some interactive fiction back in the day but GW isnt an adventure game . Guild Wars is far from perfect but then again what game is perfect, all games have flaws .

Amazing?

No.

Has potential?

Yes. Absolutely.

But there have been a lot of bad decisions which is REALLY frustrating:

- Living Story ignoring all Guild Wars lore, you know, interesting and important stuff.
- Soul bound everything when it could just be account bound AT LEAST.
- Time gated gear (soul bound for extra time sucking slow fun! *Vomit)
- Ascended gear
- WvW bloodlust
- WvW leagues
- WvW population issues (server stacking)
- WvW exploits not being addressed
- Targeting enemies feels SO out-dated, it is terrible (target nearest in GW2 makes me CRY, it was perfect in GW1)
- Skill bugs not being fixed, bull’s charge as one example (you go flying past the target after hitting them, the tracking is BROKEN)
- Skill tooltips give little info (finally being addressed next patch)
- Ignoring sucky rune sets while introducing OP ones (perplexity)

There is potential.

They just need to listen to the players instead of blindly doing whatever they want, even when the majority of players say no.

And do not kid yourself and tell me the forums are a minority, they are the majority of feedback and ideas and answers. Until you are getting feedback and ideas from the silent people anet has dubbed “The majority”, they mean nothing. Do not delude yourself.

ToPocHi.2480:

Adding a mere extra tier of gear that grants a very slight advantage. Flak.

Ascended weapons plus trinkets net you around 15% extra damage, depending on your profession and spec. It’s estimated to rise to around 25% extra damage in a full ascended set. Armor is coming out soon.

25% isn’t slight.

Please remember this forum is dedicated exclusivley to GW2. Therefore explicitly talking about other games is considered a violation of our forum code of conduct.

Agreed with OP!

Have No Faith In Me.1840:

Amazing?

No.

Has potential?

Yes. Absolutely.

But there have been a lot of bad decisions which is REALLY frustrating:

- Living Story ignoring all Guild Wars lore, you know, interesting and important stuff.
- Soul bound everything when it could just be account bound AT LEAST.
- Time gated gear (soul bound for extra time sucking slow fun! *Vomit)
- Ascended gear
- WvW bloodlust
- WvW leagues
- WvW population issues (server stacking)
- WvW exploits not being addressed
- Targeting enemies feels SO out-dated, it is terrible (target nearest in GW2 makes me CRY, it was perfect in GW1)
- Skill bugs not being fixed, bull’s charge as one example (you go flying past the target after hitting them, the tracking is BROKEN)
- Skill tooltips give little info (finally being addressed next patch)
- Ignoring sucky rune sets while introducing OP ones (perplexity)

There is potential.

They just need to listen to the players instead of blindly doing whatever they want, even when the majority of players say no.

And do not kid yourself and tell me the forums are a minority, they are the majority of feedback and ideas and answers. Until you are getting feedback and ideas from the silent people anet has dubbed “The majority”, they mean nothing. Do not delude yourself.

What is guild wars lore exactly? what would you rather have Living Story be told about? It can’t relive the past because it would be a contradiction.

Maybe they should have started out with fighting another dragon like Jormag? but then it would be temporary content and along the line of the story Jormag would be dead, never to be experienced ever again.

So what I propose is that they should make another personal story for everyone that comes after the killing of Zhaitan which can be replayed by making a new character.

minbariguy.7504:

Adine.2184:

Yes and no . Complaining for complaint sake is pointless and achieves nothing . Constructive criticism is another story . Unfortunately constructive criticism is the exception not the rule on this forum

While I see your point, I’d argue that blindly praising the game for the sake of praising it is equally worthless, and achieves an equal amount of nothing. It provides absolutely no constructive feedback to let ANet know what, specifically, they are doing right.

Non-constructive praise isn’t any more worthwhile than non-constructive criticism.

I actually disagree with this. Non-constructive criticism (being a hater) divides the community and created a lot of tension. If a person says this game is amazing and leaves it at that, people may disagree, but nobody is going to be angry/offended. If someone says this game is horrible and leaves it at that, quite the opposite, everyone who disagrees will be deeply offended and feel sorry for the poor Devs. This is even worse when you consider the fact that non-constructive criticism simply breeds a negative atmosphere, it’s actually damaging. On the other hand, non-constructive praise breeds a very positive atmosphere, and can be very helpful to the community (even if it’s useless for development).

Arius.7031:

minbariguy.7504:

Adine.2184:

Yes and no . Complaining for complaint sake is pointless and achieves nothing . Constructive criticism is another story . Unfortunately constructive criticism is the exception not the rule on this forum

While I see your point, I’d argue that blindly praising the game for the sake of praising it is equally worthless, and achieves an equal amount of nothing. It provides absolutely no constructive feedback to let ANet know what, specifically, they are doing right.

Non-constructive praise isn’t any more worthwhile than non-constructive criticism.

I actually disagree with this. Non-constructive criticism (being a hater) divides the community and created a lot of tension. If a person says this game is amazing and leaves it at that, people may disagree, but nobody is going to be angry/offended. If someone says this game is horrible and leaves it at that, quite the opposite, everyone who disagrees will be deeply offended and feel sorry for the poor Devs. This is even worse when you consider the fact that non-constructive criticism simply breeds a negative atmosphere, it’s actually damaging. On the other hand, non-constructive praise breeds a very positive atmosphere, and can be very helpful to the community (even if it’s useless for development).

I think blind fanaticism on either side can be offensive. If someone is a hater it kitten es off people who like the game. If someone is a white knight, it kitten es off people who feel they have legitimate grievances about the game.

Both sides are equally dismissive.