Guild Wars 2

Well, I made a new character with my wife recently, and I hit 30, what a smack in the face. I don’t see how any of this system is good for new players, and everything you claimed prior to the patch seems to be the opposite in-game.

“One fundamental change to the way traits function is that you won’t be required to visit a profession trainer and purchase a training manual to access the adept, master, and grandmaster trait tiers! Once you reach the appropriate level, we want you to be able to dive right into the system and start playing around with it, so you’ll unlock each tier for free!”

Yes, the tier is unlocked, but the Traits aren’t. So, I got the tier, and three traits I unlocked by chance while doing some map completion. But the traits are not related to the build I’m trying to make, so there’s no “diving in”, I have nothing to play around with! I can refund my traits anytime, but what’s the use, I only have three traits ! For a lvl 30, I can’t unlock the other ones either, since I can’t map complete a lvl 70 zone or other ridiculous things. So, I have to buy the books at the trainer if I want to have some traits, so this also contradicts the fact that I don’t have to visit the trainer!

“As part of this approach to making traits more approachable, we’ve pushed back the level at which the different trait tiers unlock for new characters in order to better pace the early game "
So, for 30 lvls I have nothing to do, and then I have, behold, ONE point! Then nothing for 6 levels. I feel useless.

I loved the system the way it was, you had progression and a small boost every level, at every five you have a trait, it was awesome, it helped you understand the trait system, and if you add the free refunds that are currently implemented, then you could really “dive right in” you could try a bunch of builds while leveling, it would be great.

I think the map completion requirements should be perhaps only for one skill per tier.

It feels like nobody tested this trait system, how could no one see that a lvl 30 trait being unlocked by a 70+ zone completion go through ? It’s insane!

Nitram.7836:

It feels like nobody tested this trait system, how could no one see that a lvl 30 trait being unlocked by a 70+ zone completion go through ? It’s insane!

The thing is, this doesn’t even need to be tested. Anyone who even has a vague concept of what levels are in an RPG sense would be able to tell you that doesn’t work. And they wouldn’t have to try it out, they’d be able to tell you that just by seeing it written down on paper.

That’s the most mystifying thing to me about a lot of the changes that popped up in this patch. We’re not talking about weird technical issues that may have required extensive testing or rollout onto live servers to see. We’re talking stuff that doesn’t even make a lot of sense even when viewed just written on a meeting room white board.

Nerelith.7360:

AlexEBT.7240:

Nerelith.7360:

I took the time to figure out mathematically How many different combinations there are of aquiring traits, for the sake of simplicity and since I am Not a mathematicion, and had to figure it out with pencil, and a few pieces of paper, I calculated How many different ways there are to pay for the 5 NEW grandmaster traits only.

Of course if you add the master and adept traits the number oc combinations increases. If anyone is a mathematician and wishes to do this as a mental exercise we can see exactly how many different combinations there are of paying for all the traits.

I made some assumptions, I assumed that some players may only want one trait, some may want 2, some three, some 4 and some all 5.

I also assumed that not all would pick 100 % of one or 100 % of the other manner to pay for it, but may mix, and match….

maybe Lines 1 and 4 are done as events and maybe 23, and 5 are paid for with cash and skill points etc…

there are 5 traits and 2 different ways to pay for those traits:
I used the following website

http://www.mathsisfun.com/combinatorics/combinations-permutations-calculator.html

which gave me the following formula for figuring how to group n items taken in groups of r:

Number of cominations = n!/[(n-r)!x(r!)]

so I used that to figure out How to group 5 items taken at 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 at a time… came up with

5 + 10 + 10 + 5 + 1= 31

then we get complicated, since there are 2 different ways of paying for each combination… and this at this point is beyond my ability to calculate.

all I Know is.."The true Number of combinations of paying for all the NEW grandmaster traits since you can either 1. do events or 2. pay with skillpoints and gold " > 31.

But assume there are only 32, even though we KNOW it is gonna be a Lot more than 32. if anyone would Like to work up the math i would appreciate a math lesson in IM :P

That means there are at LEAST 32 Possible combinations on how to aquire one, any or all the new grandmaster traits…..

then add in the master, and the adept… and I have to wonder…

FORCE = lack of Options.

…

This seems to be plenty of options.

Ok, the mental acrobatics are getting silly.
In the case of each trait you only have 2 options: you either do the task given which is in some cases is completely inappropiate in respective to the level of the player (WvW, higher lvl content then the moment of aquistion) or too time consuming (map completion on 12 maps…maybe more don’t qoute me on this) or you pay for it (new players haven’t got much in the way of funds). That’s it.

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

Your math is specious. You calculated the number of combinations one needs to arrive at 100% completion. Yes, there are a number of possible paths to that end goal.

What you ignored is the fact that these combinations of paths do not actually reflect real options. They’re a set steps where each step has only two options that are not effected by and do not effect your other choices. It doesn’t matter how you attain Line 5 Trait XIII. It doesn’t matter if you gain Line 4 Trait XIII before or after. You have exactly two meaningful options: unlock method 1 or unlock method 2. What keeps these from being real options is that they are over-specific. Real options would be something like “complete 10 commune skill challenges” or “complete 3 of the 5 level 1-15 maps.” And again, I’ll cite Line 3 Trait XIII as an example of forced play: large numbers of players are reporting that it is impossible for them to even attempt a run at the Karka Queen.

You may say that somehow, having a set of completely unconnected and non-related events constitutes meaningful options, but throwing specious numbers into cyberspace does not constitute a proof.

StriderShinryu.6923:

Nitram.7836:

It feels like nobody tested this trait system, how could no one see that a lvl 30 trait being unlocked by a 70+ zone completion go through ? It’s insane!

The thing is, this doesn’t even need to be tested. Anyone who even has a vague concept of what levels are in an RPG sense would be able to tell you that doesn’t work. And they wouldn’t have to try it out, they’d be able to tell you that just by seeing it written down on paper.

That’s the most mystifying thing to me about a lot of the changes that popped up in this patch. We’re not talking about weird technical issues that may have required extensive testing or rollout onto live servers to see. We’re talking stuff that doesn’t even make a lot of sense even when viewed just written on a meeting room white board.

Exactly. It’s mechanically impossible to complete a zone that has kill requirements more than 10 above you. Once a mob is more than 10 (or is it 11?) levels above you, you actually cannot be awarded exp if you even manage to kill the thing, and thus you can’t gain credit for renown hearts that require kills or complete skill point combat challenges.

Nerelith.7360:

<snip>

That isn’t what you are saying is it? maybe I misunderstood you?

Yes you did misunderstand what I was trying to say. I am not saying you are not entitled to your opinion and you can post as many likes as you want.

But when the aim of most of your posts in this thread seem to be trying to disprove others who dislike the new trait system as if it is a court of law rather than a forum. You are not just posting your like for the system and why you like the system you are trying to rubbish those who hold the opinion that the new trait system isn’t that great.

I posted I disliked the system I did not quote your original post in my original post trying to counter everything you said. Because I understand there are some people who like the new system, just like there are people who dislike the system. I also understand that it has been stated the forums are the minority but law of averages state that for every so many dislikes there should be at least a not too bad ratio of likes. So far out of 11 pages of posts outwith yourself there has been little in the way of the system is great and nothing needs done about it posts and I could probably count those in one hand.

There are numerous other feedback threads with people who like and dislike the other changes and those appear to a much better ration of dislikes to likes. So if the system is that much of a success then why is this feedback thread so lopsided on the dislikes. But again im pleased for you that you enjoy the system and I hope you have fun levelling your alt/character.

More trait unlock feedback and suggestions…

Please remove the skill point requirements for trait unlocks:

• The gold cost alone is incentive enough to use the unlock system. Additional costs of any sort are unnecessary.
• Traits and skills are separate advancement tracks. There should be no connection between them, and definitely not one as significant as this.
• During levelling, skill points are already in short supply, especially if a character follows the recommended levelling system of doing zone completions.

Comments on the trait unlock quests:

• Making trait unlock quests different for each class would be a good change, but it would take a lot of dev-hours to implement, and therefore shouldn’t even be considered until the current quests have their levels and difficulty fixed.
• For the same reason, even though I think the system would be better if the quests were related to the traits they unlock, I do not think that change should be in consideration for the near future.
• Fixes, needed ASAP: Quests need to be made level appropriate (self-explanatory) and quest difficulties need to be re-scaled (details in my previous posts).

As always, whenever this all finally gets to the devs, thank you for listening.

Also, a comment on another post:

Nerelith.7360:

Math trumps opinion any day.

A mathematical formula can be constructed to back up anything. How accurately math models reality depends on many factors, including the opinions of the person using it. Math is just a tool, using it doesn’t cause an auto-win.

I am really disappointed to new trait system.. Takes lots of the fun from game, specially on early game when you can’t play with traits. And really even before the early game wasn’t that fun until you got to master traits.. and the early leveling is so sloow (well perhaps not slow but feels like it because don’t have any fun stuff to use.).
also unlocking traits forces to take cookie cutter builds until you are capped, or then yous pend plenty of time trying unlock traits or have to go without skills to use as skill point cost of traits makes sure you won’t be getting any extras.

on my capped character change does nothing, so i can’t really understand how this serves anyone. Kinda feels it is just to kick new players away.

I think Anet developers have completely forgotten what it’s like to level a new character from scratch.

This is ridiculous for new players or those re-rolling a character. These changes are downright INSANE for WvW players. There are players that don’t PvE, and you’ve done them a great disservice requiring them to complete PVE maps in order to unlock even basic traits.

Respect your players Anet. Get rid of your trait unlocks. It’s lame as all hell.

I’d really like if they reverted the traits to a drop down when you click the tier. I find this list a nuisance. There’s just been so much more clicking in this new patch.

Oh boy Nerelith…
I get you have fancy statistical math skills but the masses ARE right. Buy the traits or earn them. And let me tell you it’s either pest or cholera for new players.

Earn them? Yes with lvl36 you can totally 100% frostgorge sound…

Buy them? I’m pretty sure you’re used to having gold as you play for a long time now – But can you remember the times over 1 year ago when we started with this game? It took long for everyone of us to get their first 1g. Since then prices went up, even if just slightly at lower levels and the rewards from events etc stayed the same. Are you really trying to force people into farming a queensdale rotation?

You own lvl80 characters or at least high-level ones. One can see that in your argumentation. We are however talking about NEW players. Go and try out an experiment (And I know it’s sorta meh due to account wallet): Make a new char and start from scratch. No gold you earned from your high characters, no crafted items from your high characters, no boosters you had on your bank. You can bunker your gold in a bank-guild or whatever I dunno – Just try it and you’ll see how dreadful leveling nowadays is. And especially you’ll see how bad both options of acquiering traits are.

- Snip and general opinion again -

The requirements of unlucking traits need to be rebalanced. That’s a fact. They are especially unbalanced at the adept tier. You get nothing for clearing the lower maps. It forces you into WvW (Overgrown grub lololololol <_<‘). I mean… It’s nice you try to give a variety but there are – As many have stated – So many better requirements. I mean how many exploration and jumping puzzle achievements are there on low level maps? Plenty!

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

A list of the options for gaining any given trait:

• do the assigned task.

• buy it.

The mathematical sum of those options:

1 + 1 = 2.

You admit that your calculation is based on assumptions (opinion based at that). Mine is not. By your logic my math trumps yours.

I remember when people were so excited about the CDIs saying that Anet was finally going to start listening to the playerbase.

I think this new trait system proves how little Anet actually cares about constructive criticism from players.

I think the unlocking trait idea is a decent idea, but was executed fairly poorly.

There are two ways to unlock traits: skill points + gold, and doing activities.
It seems to me that skill points + gold is very cost prohibitive. By the time a character has leveled up to 36, what is the expected amount of gold a new player has stockpiled? It’s probably about 1-3 gold. So this tier actually works okay from the gold standpoint. I mean, you’re taking a new player’s limited resource and draining it, but they’ll surely regain their wealth in enough time. However, the skill point cost makes absolutely no sense.

Currently, you can spend skill points on skills, traits, and items. Items are definitely the lowest priority, so disregard that for now. To unlock every non-elite skill for a character, you need about 100 skill points. In my experience, I usually unlocked every non-elite skill and an elite or two right around the time I was 70 or so. Having to use skill points to unlock traits basically means that until a character is 80 they’re going to have to make a choice between filling their trait lines to capitalize on all of their tools, or unlocking skills to increase their build diversity.

This makes the trait purchasing system unfeasible, in my opinion.

So this leaves with the adventuring option for unlocking traits. Aside from the issues many people have with the various methods (locking an adept trait behind clearing a level 70 zone, etc) there is one HUGE problem with this method; it pretty much counters the mission statement of Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 2 was billed as a game that breaks the traditional MMO mold and allows people to play any way they want. If someone wants to only play WvW, they can. If someone wants to only play sPvP, they can. If someone wants to only play PvE, they can. But the trait unlock system has basically ignored all of these people, and is forcing people to acknowledge parts of the game they find uninteresting or boring. It’s really counterintuitive to lock something so fundamental to a player’s power and creativity behind such rote, unimaginative, time consuming tasks. Many can be completed when you reach the appropriate level, but getting to the appropriate level has become severely tedious without the ability to use traits to boost your character’s abilities.

It’s pretty much a terrible system.

not real sure that I like this system but I have noticed some changes in the way I am doing damage now which is a plus. I wish and suggest that you allow ele to be able to swap weapons as well as the engineer this still tends to be a problem stopping getting out of agro then changing to what you want at the point where you are that would stop if we could switch just like all other professions do!

This trait change is a mixed bag for me.

On the positive side:
1) The reorganization is more intuitive. I like having 1 trait point opening up a trait benefit I can choose instead of having one open up every 5 points.

2) The design is well thought out. It is easy to find the traits, to add and subtract and change them.

3) It was brilliant having the acquisition information built in. I love how handy that is.

On the negative side:
1) It was hard losing trait skills I already had learned with my level 30-48 characters. I had paid for manuals and opened up trait skills that now I will have to reaquire and at a much higher cost. For example, my 2nd highest character, a level 48 necro, used to have her death trait maxed through the master level (equivilant to 4 of the new trait points.) Now she is allowed only 1 point in Death trait and has to unlock the ability to assign more.

2) Trait quests are too difficult. I was pretty excited when I heard we would get a chance to acquire trait training through quest rewards, but the choice of quests seems a bit odd. In the above example, my level 48 necro needs to go do a lev 55 storyline quest to acquire the ability to put a 2nd point in the Death trait line. I would have expected the trait quests to be more in line with the character level at which the trait points are earned.

3) Trait guide prices are too high. Generally lower level characters can’t earn as much gold as quickly as higher level characters and there are a lot of things to spend on — such as armor and weapons as one levels up. A high price for an item needed to level up a character is a harsh penalty on new characters. Higher level characters not only earn more gold faster, but they also have less need for the gold as they don’t have to constantly upgrade their weapons and armor.

3) The new trait system enourages a fixed trait point allocation rather than experimentation or customization. Just when people need to be experimenting the most — with a new character — trying new builds and seeing what works best for them, they are limited to what they can open up easily or buy. Since gold is harder to earn at lower levels and the quests are for higher levels than when the character can allocate the trait points, then it seems as though we are being led to placing our trait points in the order easiest to open rather than by what playing style we prefer. And yet, the pre-release notes implied the trait changes were designed to encourage customization. Perhaps it encourages customization at higher levels of play, but it sure discourages it at low levels (unless it is an alternate character on an account with an 80 level character that can act as a gold feeder.)

4) Trait progression is too slow. Half the fun of a new character is leveling up and getting more powerful. There is a huge disadvantage to being a non-max level character. The closer one gets to level 80, the less a disadvantage. To counter-act that, a new character has to progress faster through the lower levels. A linear progression just doesn’t feel as satisfying as one skewed to progress faster at lower levels. I really like that GW2 requires the same xp for each level, but I liked the earlier trait system where characters progressed quickly through early levels. It meant a character felt powerful fast enough to be satisfying. I think this trait change slows the progression down too far.

5) This trait change encourages the creation of a single character and makes it less likely a person will go through the effort of leveling up and aquiring traits for very many alternates. The traits open per character, not per account. For anything that is character-based, the cost/time expenditure has to be smaller. The previous system required the aquisition of only 3 manuals per character at a total cost of 3g 10silver now it costs 43g 360skill points per character (or a whole lot of time invested in quests one might not have done otherwise.) What is ironic is that this change comes at the same time as the change to make dye account-based. Kind of like making the same mistake as the one being fixed.

6) This trait change again penalizes the solo player and player that belongs to a small guild. If one has a group of people one plays with who can help take a new character through the necessary quests, then these trait quests won’t be too much of a problem. However, they provide a serious disadvantage to the solo player and one more strike against small guilds.

I love the dye and armor/weapon skin changes. I like the concept behind the trait changes, but I hope there will be some tweaking to make this better for the beginning player and those of us who like to have more than one character. I would really like to enjoy the myriad storylines — without having to find other people to play with.

NewTrain.7549:

I remember when people were so excited about the CDIs saying that Anet was finally going to start listening to the playerbase.

I think this new trait system proves how little Anet actually cares about constructive criticism from players.

This is one of my biggest concerns moving forward from this patch.

Technically, yes ANet has actually added alternate ways of progression and they have put in a way to acquire that progression from going out in the world and adventuring/beating enemies/completing events. Given how questionable the execution is, however, this is absolutely nothing that either the devs or the ANet fanboys should be hanging their hats on. I would imagine, however, that they are going to try.

It’s like they asked us what sort of ice cream we wanted and we said we wanted chocolate ice cream. They later showed up with neopolitan and expected credit for it because, hey, there’s chocolate in there.

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

A list of the options for gaining any given trait:

• do the assigned task.

• buy it.

The mathematical sum of those options:

1 + 1 = 2.

You admit that your calculation is based on assumptions (opinion based at that). Mine is not. By your logic my math trumps yours.

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

On the other hand in each of those five coin tosses there are only two possible (excluding weird things like the coin landing on edge) outcomes.

Kind of like how there are only two options for gaining any given trait: do the associated task, or buy it.

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

There are many options… you can do the events for trait lines 1 and 4, and decide you rather spend gold + skillpoints for 2, 3, and 5. You can also do the events for 2, and 4, and then pay skillpoints + gold for 1, 3, and 5. etc….

You can decide to forgo trait line 3, and only get the other 4. The decide to pay Gold for only 1, and 4, and pay gold for 2 and 5. Etc, etc, etc….

This is More than just " 2 options"

But even so….even…if it is ONLY 2 options….. someone used the word " forced" EVEN if all you have is 2 options, and the facts are you have a LOT more than 2. Once you have a second option it is not forced.

I Understand many players Liked just buying a manual at levels 11,40 and 60. And for many that was fine and easier than the new system.

But saying " the new options are not options since for us they are unpleasant…." does Not automatically make them unpleasant for everyone… Just for you.

THAT is mear opinion. many like to toss these about as if they were fact, simply because someone declares them fact.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does Not make them a troll…just someone that disagrees with you.

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

There are many options… you can do the events for trait lines 1 and 4, and decide you rather spend gold + skillpoints for 2, 3, and 5. You can also do the events for 2, and 4, and then pay skillpoints + gold for 1, 3, and 5. etc….

You can decide to forgo trait line 3, and only get the other 4. The decide to pay Gold for only 1, and 4, and pay gold for 2 and 5. Etc, etc, etc….

This is More than just " 2 options"

But even so….even…if it is ONLY 2 options….. someone used the word " forced" EVEN if all you have is 2 options, and the facts are you have a LOT more than 2. Once you have a second option it is not forced.

I Understand many players Liked just buying a manual at levels 11,40 and 60. And for many that was fine and easier than the new system.

But saying " the new options are not options since for us they are unpleasant…." does Not automatically make them unpleasant for everyone… Just for you.

THAT is mear opinion. many like to toss these about as if they were fact, simply because someone declares them fact.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does Not make them a troll…just someone that disagrees with you.

1) I prefer the new set up. I like it alot.

2) I did not call you, or anyone else for that matter, a troll.

3) I did not say that the options are unpleasant.

4) Having two options does not mean that something is not forced. You can be forced to choose between two unpleasant options. “Get shot or Give me the money,” at gun point in a robbery is a solid example of this (and no I am nto saying that Anet is holding a gun to anyone’s head, just pointing out the fact that two options exist does not inherently make something not forced).

5) For any given trait have only two options. For all traits you have only two options. Being able to select the same two options repeatedly does not make for more than two options, just multiple instances of the same two. You will only have ever made the choice between task or gold+skill point. Again, you may have made that choice multiple times but still only two options.

I can’t believe what I’m reading,… people requested a system like this since release of GW2 – something that has been in GW1 from the get go. Now we got it and people cry how they need to do open world stuff / quests in order to unlock it. Seriously?

Personally I think this is wonderful. I have tons of new traits I can work towards to, and if I’m tired of a build I have to go adventuring to become better. It feels much more like GW1 to me, in a good way.

No, I do not want everything unlocked from the start.
Yes, I want more stuff to do in the open world.

Honestly: thank you, Anet! These changes made the game so much more fun to me.

There are only two options: do some quest (usually way above your level/broken/not available) or buy it with 3g and 20 skill points that you don’t have.

No amount of number theory will change that.

The fact that you choose to do some events and pay for others doesn’t alter the fact that there are only two options for each trait. You’re making the common mistake of not seeing the wood for the trees (or in simpler terms, not recognising what the question really is).

Completing one doing the event doesn’t alter the number of options for the remaining traits, there are still only two ways to acquire it.

If you roll a completely new toon, or are a new player, then there is really only one way to do the traits and that’s do the event, as you won’t have either the gold or the skill points available.

This new system is terrible for build diversity and indeed for class diversity- as people who have levelled multiple classes will tell you, it’s a lot easier levelling some rather than others that are a lot more dependent on traits to be viable. Levelling a band new mesmer must now be truely awful.

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

There are many options… you can do the events for trait lines 1 and 4, and decide you rather spend gold + skillpoints for 2, 3, and 5. You can also do the events for 2, and 4, and then pay skillpoints + gold for 1, 3, and 5. etc….

You can decide to forgo trait line 3, and only get the other 4. The decide to pay Gold for only 1, and 4, and pay gold for 2 and 5. Etc, etc, etc….

This is More than just " 2 options"

But even so….even…if it is ONLY 2 options….. someone used the word " forced" EVEN if all you have is 2 options, and the facts are you have a LOT more than 2. Once you have a second option it is not forced.

I Understand many players Liked just buying a manual at levels 11,40 and 60. And for many that was fine and easier than the new system.

But saying " the new options are not options since for us they are unpleasant…." does Not automatically make them unpleasant for everyone… Just for you.

THAT is mear opinion. many like to toss these about as if they were fact, simply because someone declares them fact.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does Not make them a troll…just someone that disagrees with you.

1) I prefer the new set up. I like it alot.

2) I did not call you, or anyone else for that matter, a troll.

3) I did not say that the options are unpleasant.

4) Having two options does not mean that something is not forced. You can be forced to choose between two unpleasant options. “Get shot or Give me the money,” at gun point in a robbery is a solid example of this (and no I am nto saying that Anet is holding a gun to anyone’s head, just pointing out the fact that two options exist does not inherently make something not forced).

5) For any given trait have only two options. For all traits you have only two options. Being able to select the same two options repeatedly does not make for more than two options, just multiple instances of the same two. You will only have ever made the choice between task or gold+skill point. Again, you may have made that choice multiple times but still only two options.

No one is putting a Gun to your face. The OIptions are more trivial…. do some content, or pay some in gamne Gold… and skillpoints.. your analogy is Not a good one to the circumstances.

Each time you toss a coin you are faced with ONLY two options…doesn’t matter how often… only 2 options. that you toss it 5 times…. doesn’t mean that the chances of getting 5 heads In a row are one is 31. they are clearly only 2 Options. so they are only 1 in 2 according to you.

Secondly… the options being unpleasant is mearly your opinion, and those that like you see the tasks as either too onerous or too costly. I am one that doesn’t find either. I can choose to either do a task, or if I find the task unpleasant, pay in Gold + skillpoints.

But that is my opinion. Yours is that the tasks are too onerous, and the costs too expensive. But that is also your opinion. The fact that a LOT of you agree with one another, doesn’t make your opinions fact.

PS I am rolling a new mesmer, just hit level 6. And enjoying it. But again, as I said before… that is just my opinion. We all have them.

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

A list of the options for gaining any given trait:

• do the assigned task.

• buy it.

The mathematical sum of those options:

1 + 1 = 2.

You admit that your calculation is based on assumptions (opinion based at that). Mine is not. By your logic my math trumps yours.

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

Except your math, despite being correct by concept, is irrelevant.
It’s like if you were asked what 5 + 5 is, and then proved that 50 – 5 = 45. Your math actually has nothing to do with what’s being discussed.

What you did was count combinations. What you didn’t do was properly address how many means of acquisition there are.

In reality, this value is 3. That said, it is implied that it should be 2, as the options for the decision are as follows and apply to each and every trait.
1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.
2.) One explores for the trait.
3.) One purchases the traits.

Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.

So per trait, one has two options (hence 1 + 1 = 2), and as mentioned above, some are quite literally impossible to do even remotely near acquisition in regards to the exploration option.

Therefore, one is indeed forced into merely one option in order to unlock the trait. Quite frankly, this is poor design. Even then, forced PvE/WvW exploration is also poor design. The game is marketed as allowing players to play in any way they wish. This does not abide to that mentality. This is even more prevalent if ANet has any further intentions of trying to legitimize sPvP and WvW.

Not to mention the slowed down progression also hurts new players and makes slower what is already considered to be a slow early game progression in comparison to many other games. I personally know of more than thirty people who have picked up this game before this patch and have quit within the first day or two because the early levels and progression were already too slow for them and too restrictive in what they had to do to level up.

Meanwhile, one still needs to purchase traits from the same NPC despite the intention of on-the-go swapping to be able to be done anywhere. Most people who reset their builds frequently either do it near the spawn in WvW or before they go dungeoning, and usually stick to that particular build. Additionally, new players which “screw up” their builds will still not have any use for the trait reset feature since they will be lacking getting any new traits to begin with.

This implementation failed on all fronts to achieve what it intended to, and simply stating that your opinion is correct “because math” is clearly demonstrative not only of your lack of comprehension of the subject, but also in that your math and logical reasoning are incoherent.

DeceiverX.8361:

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

A list of the options for gaining any given trait:

• do the assigned task.

• buy it.

The mathematical sum of those options:

1 + 1 = 2.

You admit that your calculation is based on assumptions (opinion based at that). Mine is not. By your logic my math trumps yours.

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

Except your math, despite being correct by concept, is irrelevant.
It’s like if you were asked what 5 + 5 is, and then proved that 50 – 5 = 45. Your math actually has nothing to do with what’s being discussed.

What you did was count combinations. What you didn’t do was properly address how many means of acquisition there are.

In reality, this value is 3. That said, it is implied that it should be 2, as the options for the decision are as follows and apply to each and every trait.
1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.
2.) One explores for the trait.
3.) One purchases the traits.

Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.

So per trait, one has two options (hence 1 + 1 = 2), and as mentioned above, some are quite literally impossible to do even remotely near acquisition in regards to the exploration option.

Therefore, one is indeed forced into merely one option in order to unlock the trait. Quite frankly, this is poor design. Even then, forced PvE/WvW exploration is also poor design. The game is marketed as allowing players to play in any way they wish. This does not abide to that mentality. This is even more prevalent if ANet has any further intentions of trying to legitimize sPvP and WvW.

Not to mention the slowed down progression also hurts new players and makes slower what is already considered to be a slow early game progression in comparison to many other games. I personally know of more than thirty people who have picked up this game before this patch and have quit within the first day or two because the early levels and progression were already too slow for them and too restrictive in what they had to do to level up.

Meanwhile, one still needs to purchase traits from the same NPC despite the intention of on-the-go swapping to be able to be done anywhere. Most people who reset their builds frequently either do it near the spawn in WvW or before they go dungeoning, and usually stick to that particular build. Additionally, new players which “screw up” their builds will still not have any use for the trait reset feature since they will be lacking getting any new traits to begin with.

This implementation failed on all fronts to achieve what it intended to, and simply stating that your opinion is correct “because math” is clearly demonstrative not only of your lack of comprehension of the subject, but also in that your math and logical reasoning are incoherent.

You say :“1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.”

then say “Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.”

I do not accept that it is implicite at all. There are many people that will Look over some traits, decide either that they do not fit their build concept. Are too onerous for them to aquire, too expensive to buy at this time, and will forgo many traits.

Not every player is a completionist that needs EVERY trait as soon as they are able to use those traits.

I Played EverQuest. And In that game you needed to hunt down the spell vendors for your spells so at say level 19, you had to go into a zone that may or may Not have mobs 5 to 7 levels higher than you were. Also you might or might Not have all the gold necessary to buy all your spells. SOME spells required you to kill certain mobs over and over. And some required you to hunt down crafing compnents to research the spell, that was on RNG… the Higer your research trait the better chance of crafting the spell…but sometimes you had continuous failures… trust me.. gw2 has made it easy in comparison.

So the idea that traits MIGHT require that things be done that a typical character of that level may not be able to do, is not new. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad decision, just an unpopular one.

I never really had any problems or confusion with the old trait system, but most of the changes seem harmless. I like that they’re adding new traits and hope to see more skills as well. The only thing that’s annoying is that you have to use that clunky dropdown menu to read about the different traits. It makes it more awkward when I’m trying to decide between different trait trees to invest in. It would be easier and quicker to compare different traits if we could just click on the big hexagons to read about them instead of having to continually change the dropdown selection. It’s nice to be able to read about all the traits at once instead of having to mouse over them, but messing with the tiny dropdown list is annoying.

So this has got to be the most devastating update I’ve seen from the game. Pushing traits back to Level 30? This completely wipes so much of the fun from levels 10-30: experimenting and testing out playstyles, which was the big selling point for PvE players in Guild Wars 2. It was about discovering ways to suit your playstyle. Some people like pure tankiness – see 3-4-5 guardians – or maybe they like being a glass cannon – like a 1 2 5 elementalist – but the point was that they could experiment and figure these things out themselves. Now we can’t do that until level 30. Adding meaningful character progression after level 30 doesn’t mean taking it away from earlier stages, it means adding it after level 30. Implement more skills that you have to be level 30 to unlock, add some traits that can’t be used until then. Add traits that require you to do an event or something (more on that in a moment) in a certain area, give us additional stuff. Don’t re-organize things, stick a new UI on it, add a couple traits, and then tell us this is a major trait update.

So on the subject of conditioned traits – i.e. trait guides – this has got to be one of the stupidest revamps I’ve ever seen. Don’t get me wrong: I think having unlockable traits is actually a really cool thing to add in. Like having special traits that require you to go somewhere in a certain map and do an event or something, adding that in is a neat idea. But making them all into this is stupid. Guild Wars 2 was really anti-grind (crafting excluded), but now not only do we have to grind to get to level 30 (levels 11+ always had SOME reward associated with them so it never felt like a grind), but it takes six levels to get to each trait point now and we have to either shell out gold and skill points to buy the books or get them as random drops or do special tasks for ALL of them. There is the big issue: all. We don’t get a chance to experiment until we’ve unlocked them all, and I’ll bet by then we’re near the next tier. Where’s the player focus? This is moving more towards the grind and farther away from being the personalized experience that we’ve all come to know and love from Guild Wars 2.

I’m just majorly disappointed with this. It feels like PvE players got the middle finger with this build.

As always, this patch had the right general direction, mostly good ideas and uber-lackluster execution.

has Anet made a statement on this yet?

I dislike the new trait system it’s a step backwards rather then forwards. Fist of all paying for traits you might as well went back to the Guild Wars skill system it would have made better scene. It isn’t all alt friendly I really don’t see the point in penalizing games by forcing them to either pay for the traits which is like what 46 gold, or making them complete mapping most wont do it because they have already done it on another character. There is also the fact that some players just wont be able to complete so there only option is have to buy it which isn’t right at all.

Well, I just got a new Ranger to 30, after using a free level 20 scroll, because I disliked my original choice in race and aesthetic choices and longed for the Ranger I had back in beta, and it felt like there was a huge gap between learning all of my weapon skills and getting that first trait point. It was only 10 levels for me because of the scroll but it would’ve been more like 20 or even 25 had I not used the scroll.

Then I actually looked at the traits, so I could plan ahead which I wanted unlocked by the time I had the second tier opened up, only to find absurd restrictions on them all! My level 30 Ranger is blocked from getting the two lowly Adept tier traits I want because they require completion of level 55-75 zones. One trait says it requires you to capture a certain place in WvW, which may be a problem even for people who play WvW regularly if their realm just doesn’t go for that objective.

These aren’t just difficult or uncomfortable, they’re outright impossible in some cases, and prohibitively expensive in time and effort invested for the reward. For spending hours 100%ing a high level map I expect a lot more in a trait than a piddly movement speed increase or a bit more Swiftness. The loot and other rewards for 100%ing the map are irrelevant in light of the fact that I’d get those anyhow if I actually went and did something I personally wanted to do, rather than feeling forced to grind out a map, like a chore, just to build my character the way I’d like.

I feel forced into buying individual traits from trainers in many cases. This is far, far, FAR worse than buying skill books and spending points on piddly stat increases each level.

I’d say the spacing in trait points need to be more steady and not take 30 levels to start, and that the trait acquisition itself needs to be both level-relevant, and not prohibitively difficult, tedious, time-consuming, or complex. A jumping puzzle, depending on the puzzle, seems like a good middle ground. Capturing a tower or grinding out an entire map is as far away from a good example as I can possibly imagine.

And by level-relevant, I mean it’d be nice if I could knock out traits along with hearts and vistas and pets in a zone as I level. Just another destination on my journey rather than an abrasive and abrupt disruption in how I’d like to play. Maybe incorporate them into the personal story or tie them to specific lengthy in-game event chains like the Shadow Behemoth or the Icebrood Marauder.

The old traits weren’t perfect but I liked them much more than this. +10 stats every level or two is strongly desirable to what we have now. This is live in the game right now: You get your first trait nearly halfway to max level. That’s shocking and dismaying to any player.

You play the first third of your leveling experience without any way of customizing your character beyond gear and weapon choice. These choices happen to be at their weakest in the first third of the game! +5 precision vs +5 might is not an entertaining decision to make.

Something has to be in place to keep players engaged in their character progression for the first third or first half of the leveling experience. Maybe utilities need to be more available. Maybe Elite skills need to be opened up sooner and made more affordable. The problem here is enemies die really easily at low levels, often making utilities and elites semi-useless. You see a lot of people running signets in low level content because there’s no need for real effort.

Altogether, this change feels like it heavily punishes new or solo players. Forcing them to pay for traits others got for free. People without guilds or without helpful guilds that can’t pull a group together to run Twilight Arbor or capture a tower in WvW.

Most game devs seem to make this mistake: They live and breath their game so they lose sight of the fact that not everyone does. So they neglect solo content because they can call on a dozen different hardcore friends for advice or help running something or a loan or a team for pvp despite the fact that most players have no such luxury, and many prefer it that way.

Not everyone plays the game to hop on Vent and get personal with people living across the continent. Many people use MMOs to unwind in a persistent multiplayer world. They don’t play to maintain a second social life. If you can’t or won’t accommodate this swath of people, they’re so carefree about it they’ll just play something that does. Because the critical retention feature represented by the rest of the playerbase has minimal effect on their playing habits.

Sorry for the wall of text. It’s a complex issue with complex factors and results. And I was just that dismayed after experiencing these trait changes firsthand. I’m debating going back to my less preferred Ranger, from pre-patch, hoping he has the traits all unlocked, if this doesn’t kill my enthusiasm to play entirely, that is.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I can’t believe what I’m reading,… people requested a system like this since release of GW2 – something that has been in GW1 from the get go. Now we got it and people cry how they need to do open world stuff / quests in order to unlock it. Seriously?

Personally I think this is wonderful. I have tons of new traits I can work towards to, and if I’m tired of a build I have to go adventuring to become better. It feels much more like GW1 to me, in a good way.

No, I do not want everything unlocked from the start.
Yes, I want more stuff to do in the open world.

Honestly: thank you, Anet! These changes made the game so much more fun to me.

Because GW1 was a different game and trying to shoehorn that system into GW2 where most of the game is already shaped around it’s lacking trait system is just going to completely screw things up worse than they are. There are also tons of differences between Gw2 and GW1 that cause this system to be a huge failure. First we have the progression gap, 1-30 is a very long time to have absolutely no character progression or customization. In GW1 you had attribute points right away to at least give you the sense of progressing/customizing your character. Then we have the fact that GW1 unlocked SKILLS, which is much better than traits. Skills are gameplay changing, traits can certainly be gameplay changing but only when you have a bunch of them working together, which won’t be happening for a very long time while leveling and possibly not even until after you’ve hit 80. Of course some the unlocks being impossible to unlock at lower levels is a huge bumbling oversight and certainly doesn’t help polish the kitten .

I absolutely hate the new system and knew that when it was announced. GW2 sorely lacks character progression/customization and moving what little it had to much later in the game just makes things frustrating. I really can’t understand how they thought this would be a good idea. The fact that the old system handed out all the traits for relatively low cost/effort doesn’t help things either. If you got in a line where people were being handed a bag of money and when it came your turn they handed you a shovel and said “dig for it”, you’d be a little upset. GW2 is not setup for GW1’s system. If they wanted to stick with this system then they need to add a new progression system that makes it feel like you’re progressing/customizing your character starting in the early levels. The game overall needs more depth and a new system could really help there.

to be honest this seems to be part of a system designed by china rewards team to incentivize things like a VIP pack which gives more skill points, magic find, gold, exp boosters etc. Its not the full system, but its one of the pieces.

It fits in very nicely design wise if those are your goals, but it kind of goes against what they said they wanted to achieve.

The annoying part is they now created a whooollle lot of things that are now high priority fixes/changes. This means new content will fall farther behind which is what the game really needs for most of its population. For many many players, the problem is simply a lack of new content. New new plotlines, zones, charachters, etc. And this would require design on the levels that we have not seen very often in living story.
I ll be honest very few additions have been integrated smoothly and as well as the core games features.

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

1) I prefer the new set up. I like it alot.

2) I did not call you, or anyone else for that matter, a troll.

3) I did not say that the options are unpleasant.

4) Having two options does not mean that something is not forced. You can be forced to choose between two unpleasant options. “Get shot or Give me the money,” at gun point in a robbery is a solid example of this (and no I am nto saying that Anet is holding a gun to anyone’s head, just pointing out the fact that two options exist does not inherently make something not forced).

5) For any given trait have only two options. For all traits you have only two options. Being able to select the same two options repeatedly does not make for more than two options, just multiple instances of the same two. You will only have ever made the choice between task or gold+skill point. Again, you may have made that choice multiple times but still only two options.

No one is putting a Gun to your face. The OIptions are more trivial…. do some content, or pay some in gamne Gold… and skillpoints.. your analogy is Not a good one to the circumstances.

Each time you toss a coin you are faced with ONLY two options…doesn’t matter how often… only 2 options. that you toss it 5 times…. doesn’t mean that the chances of getting 5 heads In a row are one is 31. they are clearly only 2 Options. so they are only 1 in 2 according to you.

Secondly… the options being unpleasant is mearly your opinion, and those that like you see the tasks as either too onerous or too costly. I am one that doesn’t find either. I can choose to either do a task, or if I find the task unpleasant, pay in Gold + skillpoints.

But that is my opinion. Yours is that the tasks are too onerous, and the costs too expensive. But that is also your opinion. The fact that a LOT of you agree with one another, doesn’t make your opinions fact.

I am not sure how to respond to this post as it suffers a serious disconnect from relevant and present facts. I stated that I like, very much actually, the new trait acquisition system and you claimed subsequently that I consider the tasks too onerous and the costs too high. I am pretty sure that I know what I like better than you do. Claiming that you know my likes and dislikes better than I do makes it pretty difficult to assign any weight to your argument.

I did not claim that anyone is putting a gun to my face. You stated that having two options makes something inherently not, “forced.” I provided an example that demonstrated that such was not the case.

Haven’t really had time to work with the traits yet, still acquiring them. However, with regard to the tasks to acquire the traits…

World boss events: what is the threshold for participating before you can/cannot complete the achievement? I’ve been at a few events where I thought I had participated well (did the pre-events, and the event, got some hits in on the boss), but didn’t receive the achievement for the trait. Sometimes I’m on a character that just doesn’t do well and is downed, or I’ll take time to rez other players or kill adds. This is promoting a style of people just hitting the boss as much as they can, and not really working like a team to rez others or get rid of adds, etc.

For the grand chest in the ship…the ship is just really annoying, and the angles make me a motion sick. While that may be whining, the mobs seem to be able to attack me through walls, but I can’t damage them. While it’s busy in there now, it does seem unfair that I can’t actually clear the area and move on when things behind me on the other side of a wall can start attacking me again. Occasionally I’ll do a push back on a mob, and it will get stuck in a wall, again—it can attack me, I can’t damage it. For whatever reason (maybe the angles of the walls and the “up” orientation of the mobs are at odds), the walls aren’t “solid.”

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

Nerelith.7360:

My Opinion on the current trait system. I think all in all it’s a good one.

…..snip….

PPS I hear a LOT of players talk about how they do Not like " grinding". I remember playing MMO’s before WoW was released. And back then there was a totally different meaning to the term “grind”. Let’s just say that what many new players call grinding… back then was called…. playing.

It seems many players that play MMO’s want it handed to them on a platter and do not really like playing.

try it. go and actually play an alt and tell me it feels better than it used to feel to level.
enjoy having to wait 30 levels to refine your style, and once you hit 30, you only have the equivalent build you used to have at 15.
See how much you enjoy having traits in zones that are 10 levels higher than you are, as your goals.

i get the feeling you are focusing too much on the number conversion of 1 per five levels, and not the real thing people are complaining about, the push back of build refinement by 20 levels and the poorly designed quests to get them.

You know you have a good point. Now let me ask you this. if I level a character …starting tonight or tomorrow to level 80, and still say the same thing I am saying now… what will your responce be then?

I have a feeling even after i do this, if I should still say " I love these changes" you will simply come up with a reason to invalidate my opinion.

So please, Go on record. What will be proven to you, if I start a level 1 character. And get her to level 80, Under the new system, if My opinion remains unchanged?

i will try to analyze what you liked, and disliked, and figure how to improve the system for all. I mean if its really fun, its all good. But i started up a charachter, and i quickly was like, hmm feels like this will be a lot better if autolevel to 30 then do it.

but hey, screw it, ill play with you if you want. Lets travel the road to hel together

Im dont have an agenda or a team here, i am looking at the game overall, and how it is for new players and alt players. I have 8 professions of every class i dont have to level a lowbie ever again, so its more about other players experience for me.

Sounds too Much like " I will reserve the right to disqualify your experience, and invalidate your opinion." No thanks. Tell you what though, make your level 1 Character On tarnished coast, we will level and experience the new changes together.

If your planning on seeing how hard it is for new people, do it without spending any of the Gold your 80’s made, remember they wont be able to do dungeons now til they are 80 or find a caring guild to help them or tag as many mobs in the zergfests.

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

There are many options… you can do the events for trait lines 1 and 4, and decide you rather spend gold + skillpoints for 2, 3, and 5. You can also do the events for 2, and 4, and then pay skillpoints + gold for 1, 3, and 5. etc….

You can decide to forgo trait line 3, and only get the other 4. The decide to pay Gold for only 1, and 4, and pay gold for 2 and 5. Etc, etc, etc….

This is More than just " 2 options"

But even so….even…if it is ONLY 2 options….. someone used the word " forced" EVEN if all you have is 2 options, and the facts are you have a LOT more than 2. Once you have a second option it is not forced.

I Understand many players Liked just buying a manual at levels 11,40 and 60. And for many that was fine and easier than the new system.

But saying " the new options are not options since for us they are unpleasant…." does Not automatically make them unpleasant for everyone… Just for you.

THAT is mear opinion. many like to toss these about as if they were fact, simply because someone declares them fact.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does Not make them a troll…just someone that disagrees with you.

It’s not that the options are unpleasant – they are not possible. Onerous is not the same as technically not possible. I understand what you’re saying, that there are myriad combinations for how to arrive at an end goal. However the rest of us are saying that it’s not the end goal that matters, but each step in the journey. Please address my explicit example where the “options” are not options, ie Frostgorge. Would you suggest that a player should not find having access to any given (note: not all) Adept trait at level 40 reasonable? Are we not lead to believe that was the spirit of the design, given what Anet has said about their intentions and the current illusion of when traits are unlocked?

However, I will defer to your view if you can take a level 40 character and map complete Frostgorge Sound. Record it and post it on YouTube and I all relent in my opinion that we are being forced into paying for traits. Heck, it would shut down the entire thread. If you can accomplish this (or any other similarly miraculous feat) it will prove our concerns about the system are unfounded and we all need to L2P.

I want to say again that i looooooove the concept of unlocking traits by doing things. We just need to be given level and reward-appropriate challenges. Frostgorge is a great challenge if the trait you earn is a Master-level trait that increases your favorite weapon damage by 10%, at least in my opinion.

All this hunting of traits was anets idea of “endgame content”. (considering alot of it is left til level 80 )………..>.>

Nerelith.7360:

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

This is Like saying " the chances of tossing a coin heads 5 times is 2… because at each point there are only heads…and tails…."

Ok, if you say so.

No, it is nothing like that.

For what its worth 2 is not a chance.

There are many options… you can do the events for trait lines 1 and 4, and decide you rather spend gold + skillpoints for 2, 3, and 5. You can also do the events for 2, and 4, and then pay skillpoints + gold for 1, 3, and 5. etc….

You can decide to forgo trait line 3, and only get the other 4. The decide to pay Gold for only 1, and 4, and pay gold for 2 and 5. Etc, etc, etc….

This is More than just " 2 options"

But even so….even…if it is ONLY 2 options….. someone used the word " forced" EVEN if all you have is 2 options, and the facts are you have a LOT more than 2. Once you have a second option it is not forced.

I Understand many players Liked just buying a manual at levels 11,40 and 60. And for many that was fine and easier than the new system.

But saying " the new options are not options since for us they are unpleasant…." does Not automatically make them unpleasant for everyone… Just for you.

THAT is mear opinion. many like to toss these about as if they were fact, simply because someone declares them fact.

Just because someone disagrees with you, does Not make them a troll…just someone that disagrees with you.

many options to you, means “don’t do it and pick something else”

That are 2 options for every trait, meaning if you want to have every trait(which people should so they can play with their builds). They only have 2 options, do the task or buy.
Yeah you can pick and mix, and have less overall. But each single trait only has 2 options to get it.
And inadequate options at that.

People are asking for more, In particular, level appropriate options. How can you keep arguing that there’s loads of options based on “probability”. When you pick a trait to chase, there’s only 2 ways to get said trait.

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

My maths degree says that using maths proves nothing (except possibly that you’re getting desperate). Like the man said, Nerelith – you’re trolling.

There are now basically two awful ways of doing things. The fact that within those there are lots of awful variants that can be stitched together in lots of awful combinations doesn’t somehow magically make the overall result palatable.

I keep checking to see if there is any reply from devs etc.

Save for the in-field respect (the only thing that encourages build diversity, etc, in this patch), I despise the new system. This is so contrary to “play how you want” that it is almost silly.

Luckily I have 7 level 80s who will not have to deal with this; my planned 8th class/profession is not going to happen. Not with this scheme.

What I expected:
-Get to said level
-Unlock trait choices
-Get list of tasks appropriate for that level as, for example, some not horribly complicated JP, exploration (this is present) and my personal preference, obscure veterans mobs that have something thematically common with a trait you unlock. -Again, everything appropriate for level you unlock slot.
-And, if you don’t want to do it, pay few silver to trainer.

What I got:
-Completely inappropriate zone levels
-Grind
-Rely on presence of zerg
-PS out of slot unlock level range
-Sending lowbies into WvW maps (I can’t even being to describe idiocy in this one, with possible exception of EotM since it’s a leveling train anyway)
-And if you don’t want to do it, more grind for gold and skill points.

Having lvl 80s I can pay gold but the skill points? Leveling you need them for utility skills and even if you wouldn’t unlock any and did all skill challenges I’m pretty sure by 80 you would still be short of total points needed.

Pushing traits to 30 makes early game that is already dull, due to not having all the class toys to play, even duller. Early levels are extremely important for a new player to get hooked on the game. People are likely to get only traits that meta builds dictate thus killing the point of free respec.

Not to mention how this system destroys ‘hop right into it’ part of sPvP experience. I play all modes of this game but for people that don’t like PvE this is a huge punishment.

If devs want to make people do the content they listed as tasks, they should make it award some fashion coins that you can trade for unique skins. This way PvEers and some PvPers would do it for collections or ‘prettiest princess’ syndrome. That of course would require new non-gem skins so it is not happening.

I have 9 character so, despite the fact that I’ve have planned at least 2 more, I can live without new alts. However, I finally managed to talk a friend into joining me in GW2 baiting mostly with aesthetics and ‘play how you want’ part. Yes, I could give them gold but skill points? ‘Play to grind’ is not an attractive slogan for a new player.

How to fix this? Roll traits back to be unlocked by default and use task system for something optional. But, since companies don’t like admitting their mistakes, this is unlikely. Thus, remove skill point cost, cut gold cost to at most 1/2 of current, make all tasks level and solo appropriate. For sPvP make all traits unlocked by default. For WvWvW, make them cost badges. For people with multiple copies of the same class, make traits to be account unlocked.

Now, for the people that enjoy this system, I honestly don’t understand. If you find them fun why didn’t you do all those things required before the change? Are you the type that needs to be forced into something or will not bother otherwise? As for ‘similar system worked in GW1’ argument, don’t even start with this nostalgia. I am GW1 veteran, it is a completely different game with absolutely different progression. If people want get their GW1 nostalgia catered, anet could make an option to unlock elite skills in similar fashion.

There’s completely no need to defend anet. It’s is a business company and, since this is B2P game, we are already the paying customers.

Missy.7356:

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

Nerelith.7360:

phys.7689:

Nerelith.7360:

My Opinion on the current trait system. I think all in all it’s a good one.

…..snip….

PPS I hear a LOT of players talk about how they do Not like " grinding". I remember playing MMO’s before WoW was released. And back then there was a totally different meaning to the term “grind”. Let’s just say that what many new players call grinding… back then was called…. playing.

It seems many players that play MMO’s want it handed to them on a platter and do not really like playing.

try it. go and actually play an alt and tell me it feels better than it used to feel to level.
enjoy having to wait 30 levels to refine your style, and once you hit 30, you only have the equivalent build you used to have at 15.
See how much you enjoy having traits in zones that are 10 levels higher than you are, as your goals.

i get the feeling you are focusing too much on the number conversion of 1 per five levels, and not the real thing people are complaining about, the push back of build refinement by 20 levels and the poorly designed quests to get them.

You know you have a good point. Now let me ask you this. if I level a character …starting tonight or tomorrow to level 80, and still say the same thing I am saying now… what will your responce be then?

I have a feeling even after i do this, if I should still say " I love these changes" you will simply come up with a reason to invalidate my opinion.

So please, Go on record. What will be proven to you, if I start a level 1 character. And get her to level 80, Under the new system, if My opinion remains unchanged?

i will try to analyze what you liked, and disliked, and figure how to improve the system for all. I mean if its really fun, its all good. But i started up a charachter, and i quickly was like, hmm feels like this will be a lot better if autolevel to 30 then do it.

but hey, screw it, ill play with you if you want. Lets travel the road to hel together

Im dont have an agenda or a team here, i am looking at the game overall, and how it is for new players and alt players. I have 8 professions of every class i dont have to level a lowbie ever again, so its more about other players experience for me.

Sounds too Much like " I will reserve the right to disqualify your experience, and invalidate your opinion." No thanks. Tell you what though, make your level 1 Character On tarnished coast, we will level and experience the new changes together.

If your planning on seeing how hard it is for new people, do it without spending any of the Gold your 80’s made, remember they wont be able to do dungeons now til they are 80 or find a caring guild to help them or tag as many mobs in the zergfests.

Actually that is exactly what I am doing. I am Buying bags off the merchant using 4 slotters at the Moment. Will make My Mesmer a tailor, so she can make her opwn bags, that means I use up the Gold i have acquired less.

it is Impossible to un-mingle the gold my new mesmer earns from what was earned before…but I will not be buying major and superior sigils and runes as soon as they become available, nor will i be buying Exotics asap either….My main mesmer just now got Exotics.

I do find it a Bit… disturbing that people would question that I understand that to fully experience what a new player means…. cutting my new character off as much as Possible from what my Older characters have attained. No insta -20 scrolls…etc… No Instant Skill point scrolls… I know that a true test requires i immerse myself as Much as I can into the experience of a new player. Otherwise the results don’t show anything worth while.

PS My girlfriend suggested I allow her to make me 15 slot bags… I told her thanks but no thanks and explained why. She said " No one would ever know. " I said " I would… Integrity is what you do when you know that no one is watching."

After a few days experiencing the update :

- I really like the new trait system. I like the ability to change whenever I want, I like the new traits that add more choice in Grandmaster tier, and I like how we have to “capture” traits in a way that reminds me of GW1’s elite skills.

Future improvement

• Ability to save builds, with an option to include skills 6-10. Client-side only feature like in GW1

• Change the capture events so that they are different for every professions. There are hundreds and hundreds of events in GW2, not counting dungeons, puzzles and minidungeons. That’s enough for 8 × 13 × 5 different trait captures.

• There could even be more capture options. In gw1 I achieved Legendary Skill hunter 10 times. I liked to track different bosses after a while.

• Make trait capture events more reliable. The ones that are in Megaserver areas can’t be tracked through API-using websites and may require a way too long time camping [Lyssa …]

Doghouse.1562:

Nerelith.7360:

I respectfully disagree, you state opinions… I used math.
and…

Math trumps opinion any day. And twice on Sunday.

My maths degree says that using maths proves nothing (except possibly that you’re getting desperate). Like the man said, Nerelith – you’re trolling.

There are now basically two awful ways of doing things. The fact that within those there are lots of awful variants that can be stitched together in lots of awful combinations doesn’t somehow magically make the overall result palatable.

As I said in a previous post, if you go all the way back to EverQuest there have been occasions where to aquire a specific spell… you might not get it when you might be able to use it, or made aquiring it a hard fought experience.

if you are interested, look up what was entailed In getting the spell Mesmerization for Enchanter. Or the level 8, 12, 16 sword and shield pet. or higher level Elementals for Mages.

This having to do really hard to almost impossible things to acquire traits is not new to gw2. And just because a lot of players want it when they want it, and do not want to have to do things later…put things off til later in the game….doesn’t make what gw2 did …a mistake.

Yes, I know that everyone wants all the adept traits by level 36. But just because some require that you complete a level 50 map only means you put it off til level 50, or… get a few friends to assist you from your guild….. or…. pay for it with Gold and Skillspoints.

As for me I will be trying to acquire them, maybe my super friendly cool Guild will lend a hand.

An opportunity for Grouping and communal experiences.

for veteran.
useless update. why arena pay resource for this **** system?

for newbie.
system says"you can get trait point."but how do i use it?
all trait are locked except master(i don’t have such many points)

for arena
NOW You can get great reward by any contents in GW2 !!!!
ENJOY IT :P

excite contents makes us to play,needless reward like this trait system.

Making a whole tier (Grandmaster) available on 80 only is a decision I do not understand. Especially for leveling alts 6/x and 5/x builds pre 80 are impossible now. Sense?

I think that new trait system is terrible bad for new character.

Why new system request that personal story L55 for line 1 – I trait unlock. I guess that Line 1-I trait is appropriate to personal story L30-31.
Why new system request that map completion for some traits unlock. Map complete take time so much. This request is inequity on time then others.

I can not defended for new trait system any reason. Just so stupid. Please rollback to old system. I think that scenario change and map change does not resolve the stupid system.

I edited this section from my last post so much that I decided to just remove it from the previous one and make it a new post

The gold cost of trait unlocks needs tweaking.

• These costs need to be set carefully. If the cost is too low, there is no reason to use unlock quests. If the cost is too high, players will be effectively forced into doing content they may have no interest in. The only criteria for setting these values should be desired typical new player development.
• I suspect that from an economy standpoint, these costs were at least partially designed to offset the money sink lost when armor repairs were made free. Any such non-gameplay reasoning should not play any part in setting these costs.
• The typical player usually only uses one trait per slot while levelling, so it should be relatively cheap to unlock one trait per slot. If the player wants build diversity via additional traits, then they should either have to work for it (quest unlocks) or pay a high cost for it.
• These costs must be set based on the assumption of the character being the first character of a new player. If they are set in relation to the accumulated wealth of a multi-character older player, it would both cripple new players and effectively punish the older players for saving up gold.
• Suggestion: Increasing unlock costs. The first Adept trait in each line should be very “cheap” to unlock via gold for a typical new level 30 character. Unlocking a second should be “not cheap”. Unlocking a third should be “expensive”. Etc, etc. The same goes for Master traits, with costs set in relation to the typical gold of a new level 60 character, and for Grandmaster traits in relation to the typical gold of a new level 80 character.
• I’m not giving exact values for things, just criteria, because I don’t have the data you have. If you want an exact mathematical breakdown of how much things should cost, I can do that, but I’ll need a bunch of data, time, and probably some irl money.

As always, thanks for listening.

Nerelith.7360:

This having to do really hard to almost impossible things to acquire traits is not new to gw2.

So what? That’s not remotely a justification. Most games have learned from the bad decisions of the past and moved on.

And just because a lot of players want it when they want it, and do not want to have to do things later…put things off til later in the game….doesn’t make what gw2 did …a mistake.

Glossing over the unnecessary descent to the adhominem : most people commenting here seem to have been happy with the pace of the perfectly good, working system GW2 had before. There’s nothing inherently wrong with changing that, if the replacement is reasonable. In this case, in my opinion the change is massively flawed, in several ways that I and others have documented, and if left unrectified, could easily prove to be the nail in GW2’s coffin. Clearly you don’t agree. Fine, you’re entitled to your opinion as well. Time will tell what the community as a whole feels, and ultimately the market will vote with its feet.