Guild Wars 2

“Let’s make this happen! Folks, go on Twitter, facebook or whatever and get attention to this thread. Anet themselves have “told” us that nothing changes unless enough noise is made. We want this to change, right? Let’s start making some noise.”

+1

nethykins.7986:

“Let’s make this happen! Folks, go on Twitter, facebook or whatever and get attention to this thread. Anet themselves have “told” us that nothing changes unless enough noise is made. We want this to change, right? Let’s start making some noise.”

+1

lol. cops in America are killing people left and right, indiscriminately, without consequence, and you think posting to facekitten and twizzler is gonna change things?

America.9437:

nethykins.7986:

“Let’s make this happen! Folks, go on Twitter, facebook or whatever and get attention to this thread. Anet themselves have “told” us that nothing changes unless enough noise is made. We want this to change, right? Let’s start making some noise.”

+1

lol. cops in America are killing people left and right, indiscriminately, without consequence, and you think posting to facekitten and twizzler is gonna change things?

Yes, and things are much worse in Africa and the Middle East for example.

I fail to see how this relates to the topic however.

Illysharia.7286:

Wolfheart.1879:

I don’t feel valued as a player or a customer anymore.

Long, but great post. I thought I’d boil your commentary down to one short but sweet line. It really captures the soul of this thread after all these months.

<snip>

[This] topic that has become thesis-worthy on the scale of What Not To Do for corporate/customer relations.

<snip>

This! This right here! These comments portray my exact thoughts on this matter. I find it hard to believe that the largest thread on the forums is still being ignored aside from the occasional “too much text, point-form pl0x”.

I work a job where I deal with customers face-to-face on a daily basis. When I talk to my clients this is certainly the opposite of how I deal with people. I listen to what they have to say (the good and the bad), and deliver their feedback to my superiors. Will something be done right away? Probably not, but I let them know what can be done. Do I try my best to find a solution? Certainly! If nothing can be done, I at least apologize for my incompetence. I don’t give them the silent treatment and hope that they go away, because if they go away, they typically don’t come back.

While we wait patiently for something to be done about this fiasco, we are getting mail carrier griffons and talking backpacks. That’s great. I think? At the very least Living Story is very well done – it is the only update that I truly appreciate these days (no sarcasm).

I must say… my hands are becoming very sore from keeping my fingers crossed. I just want ANet to let us know once and for all what is being done – not silence that equates to “have some more cash shop updates and PvP tournaments while you wait for a couple more months and maybe, just maybe, we’ll think about it”, which is seriously off-putting. If they are loafing around on this issue, I want to know, so then I can stop getting my hopes up. I’m a very patient person (believe me or not); this is the first time in a long time that I am genuinely annoyed about waiting for something…

@Kross

OTOH, you don’t deal with gaming communities. Ignoring them is actually often the smartest thing to do (yes I know that includes them ignoring me) because frankly players are terrible at telling you what they want. Or rather, they’ll tell you what they think they want, which isn’t what is going to make them spend money on your company.

And since the latter is why you’re in the business, it really doesn’t matter whether players think you’re ignoring them. If ignoring them and doing something else is what makes those very players (as a giant group) spend the money, then that’s what you do. It’s a business, not a charity.

other games have a “player suggestions” forum where players can post whatever it is they want to see in game. be it items or content or improvements to accounts. other games also have direct communication with their player base. LotRO has an active ‘player council’ just for that, and – this would blow anet’s socks off – this communication thingy actually works to benefit both the publishers and the community.

Carighan.6758:

@Kross

OTOH, you don’t deal with gaming communities. Ignoring them is actually often the smartest thing to do (yes I know that includes them ignoring me) because frankly players are terrible at telling you what they want. Or rather, they’ll tell you what they think they want, which isn’t what is going to make them spend money on your company.

And since the latter is why you’re in the business, it really doesn’t matter whether players think you’re ignoring them. If ignoring them and doing something else is what makes those very players (as a giant group) spend the money, then that’s what you do. It’s a business, not a charity.

There is a difference between ignoring customers, and not always following their wants.

It is true that sometimes players can want too much, or the developer just knows that something is better. However, in those cases, usually the player comes round to the idea they may have bee wrong. To give a personal example of just that, another MMO developer announced a while ago that in their latest expansion, there would be no flying, not even at max level, at least for now. I criticised the move at the time on their forums, saying I understand it for the levelling process, but not for max level characters. Well, a month after that expansion release, I’m thinking that decision I disliked at the time is oneof the best gameplay decisions they have made in recent years.

The difference here is that in this scenario, we have had the change, we have had 8 months to see the light, and…..we still dislike it. Perhaps it is hard for us as a playerbase to give a true representation of what we want that would also be good for the game. But it is very easy for us to say what is in the game that is not fit for purpose. Additionally, throughout that decision by a rival company, they talked about their decision, and explained why they took it. They justified their decision. I’d have more respect for Anet if they came here and said that traits stay as they are, and tell us why. At least its honest dialogue, and shows a respect to us to atually be honest and stand by their system. They are too cowardly to defend this system, and too lazy/uncaring to fix it.

For me its not just about this system anymore, and if you look back to my posts here on this thread, it really never has been. This issue came about because of the way they looked at a CDI, cherry picking the bits they liked to the neglect of others, tha created a system here that, in terms of the CDI on progression, is a warped vision of what the players laid down there. Anet themselves have acknowledged the problem with the sytem, and said the best thing would be to make incremental changes to this system as a stopgap to a new one. Anet in essence acknowledged our negative opinions as having merit. Some months after that, not a kitten thing of any consequence. A lot of “we value your feedback, honestly”, but nothing to back that assertion up. Their complete lack of communication and ignorance, and refusal to engage with their players is as much the issue as the trait system itself. Anet have shown through their absence they have little respect for us. I know I’d have more respect for them if they came here and be honest. Say that it is being worked on, but its a slow process, say they have better things to do than rework this rework, say they think it is a good idea still. Honesty would breed some level of respect towards Anet, even if we vehemently disagree. As it is, brushing this huge thread off with hollow platitudes is disprespectful, and ultimately customers who do not feel valued are disinclined to purchase things. To a sub based mmo, it leads to loss of subs, here, it is potentially leading to reduced gem sales. Why should players support a company that willfully ignores them?

Of course they can’t confirm things are being worked on, that very pesky (read: very convenient) company policy sees to that.

I finally, after 8 months from this update, decided to make more alts than the normal 8 for wvw/other build purposes.

I recently got my new mesmer to 80 and the trait system has positively made me sure that I don’t want to make new charas anymore. I was planning to buy a set of 8 new chara slots and slowly work towards having alts for other build purposes, but a with a hefty forced price of 43g per alt for unlocking traits only (or like 35-40g since I’d pick part of them while leveling)… 344g for the traits of 8 characters or spending my time doing harathi 100% and waiting on lyssa or whatever to appear 8x time?

Alts are already pretty useless and waste of money, requiring their own set of gear, time to level, with rewards being acc bound, using skill points that could be used to gain gold..
As the sort of player who will change weapons and builds on the fly so this is very much a deal breaker.

But I do like the idea of the system, it just needs to be better thought out… like maybe 3 locked skill points per trait line with reasonable challenge instead of map completion? or the first one starting at level 1 where you have absolutely nothing to do anyways?

America.9437:

nethykins.7986:

“Let’s make this happen! Folks, go on Twitter, facebook or whatever and get attention to this thread. Anet themselves have “told” us that nothing changes unless enough noise is made. We want this to change, right? Let’s start making some noise.”

+1

lol. cops in America are killing people left and right, indiscriminately, without consequence, and you think posting to facekitten and twizzler is gonna change things?

given the fact that I’m not trying to fix america’s problems but a game i like, yeah, i do think it’ll change things.

btw – anet deleted my post on their FB page, so I’m guessing this is starting to have some impact. otherwise, why censor it?
keep going folks, we finally have some hope.
do it for GW2. do it for the Tamini. DO IT FOR QUAGGAN!

Wolfheart.1879:

Carighan.6758:

@Kross

OTOH, you don’t deal with gaming communities. Ignoring them is actually often the smartest thing to do (yes I know that includes them ignoring me) because frankly players are terrible at telling you what they want. Or rather, they’ll tell you what they think they want, which isn’t what is going to make them spend money on your company.
…

There is a difference between ignoring customers, and not always following their wants.

It is true that sometimes players can want too much, or the developer just knows that something is better. …

As far as accommodating customers requests, Anet is kitten ed if they do and kitten ed if they don’t. According to the mod’s remarks in this thread the reason we got this totally screwed up trait system at all was because Anet listened to the GW1 whiners who wanted to make GW2 more like GW1. The original GW2 trait system was fine the way it was. The addition of free retraits retraits from anywhere was the only thing needed to make it great.

Lazuli.2098:

Wolfheart.1879:

Carighan.6758:

@Kross

OTOH, you don’t deal with gaming communities. Ignoring them is actually often the smartest thing to do (yes I know that includes them ignoring me) because frankly players are terrible at telling you what they want. Or rather, they’ll tell you what they think they want, which isn’t what is going to make them spend money on your company.
…

There is a difference between ignoring customers, and not always following their wants.

It is true that sometimes players can want too much, or the developer just knows that something is better. …

As far as accommodating customers requests, Anet is kitten ed if they do and kitten ed if they don’t. According to the mod’s remarks in this thread the reason we got this totally screwed up trait system at all was because Anet listened to the GW1 whiners who wanted to make GW2 more like GW1. The original GW2 trait system was fine the way it was. The addition of free retraits retraits from anywhere was the only thing needed to make it great.

indeed, but according to those who participated (or said they did) in that CDI, there is very little, or not at all, correlation between what was suggested and what was implemented. like this post, for an example:

Guhracie.3419:

I was an active participant in that CDI, Mr. Peters, and this system doesn’t resemble anything that was suggested there. It obviously draws on some of the ideas, but if you really think this is more user-friendly than your old system was, I’d like to suggest you roll a new character and actually unlock a build this way.

The most offensive trait unlocks are map completions, dungeons that are more than 10 levels higher than the trait tier, and traits tied to bugged events.

given the state of things, I’m more inclined to believe the player than anet.

Eric.6109:

…
indeed, but according to those who participated (or said they did) in that CDI, there is very little, or not at all, correlation between what was suggested and what was implemented.
…

But why were they looking to change the trait system at all?

Lazuli.2098:

Eric.6109:

…
indeed, but according to those who participated (or said they did) in that CDI, there is very little, or not at all, correlation between what was suggested and what was implemented.
…

But why were they looking to change the trait system at all?

ah, that is one of the universe’s mysteries. most likely, its because Anet has a warped view that matrices tell them what the game needs better than players. they prefer to look at long spreadsheets who cannot criticise or post negative opinions instead of talking to actual people and, ya know, maybe take something from those conversations.

but you know, much like the chicken&egg or afterlife, this issue beyond our comprehension and we must live with the fact that we simply do not know.

Eric.6109:

Lazuli.2098:

Eric.6109:

…
indeed, but according to those who participated (or said they did) in that CDI, there is very little, or not at all, correlation between what was suggested and what was implemented.
…

But why were they looking to change the trait system at all?

ah, that is one of the universe’s mysteries. most likely, its because Anet has a warped view that matrices tell them what the game needs better than players. they prefer to look at long spreadsheets who cannot criticise or post negative opinions instead of talking to actual people and, ya know, maybe take something from those conversations.

but you know, much like the chicken&egg or afterlife, this issue beyond our comprehension and we must live with the fact that we simply do not know.

Just to bolt on to the metrics issue, Anet seem to fail to realise a simple truth about them. They tell you WHAT and HOW, but, perhaps most importantly in terms of looking at what is truly liked, they struggle to tell you WHY. There is certainly a place for metrics in these decisions, but the metrics are only truly useful when they are placed in the proper context. That context comes from interacting with players and getting their feedback on the specific issues. In other words, Anet need to communicate. I sometimes wonder if some dastardly ne’er-do-well has gone in and redacted “communication” from Anet’s dictionary, and all associated synonyms.

In other observations, i’ve seen in the last few days a few more trait issue threads, and these have been a lot more debated from both sides. Its strange that given the size of this thread, the supporters of the current trait system aren’t in here so much. Perhaps through there presence we can have a better discussion, if not with Anet than those who support the change. Open, constructive debate generally leads to better-informed opinions and better ideas, from both sides. Another reason why Anet would have done better to interact with us sooner. perhaps it is too late, because there may be more negativity towards any Anet posts, but ultimately, Anet brought that eventuality wholly upon themselves.

Its also interesting to see tat some players are either returning to find this system an issue, starting the game and thinking it is a bit excessive, or are a veteran player who hasn’t done a new character post-April, finally decide to and suddenly see the negative side.

Certainly its nice to see more threads out there, as it shows it is a continuing issue. While one huge thread should do that, seeing a fair few threads about seems to have more of a visual impact. Hopefully their presence will force Anet’s hand a bit more. I’ve given up on Anet for now, but that doesn’t mean they can’t open that door again if they start acting like a company that respects their players/customers.

Lazuli.2098:

Eric.6109:

…
indeed, but according to those who participated (or said they did) in that CDI, there is very little, or not at all, correlation between what was suggested and what was implemented.
…

But why were they looking to change the trait system at all?

To make traits more approachable of course! To allow you to dive straight in and experiment with your builds! By… y’know… making them MUCH harder to obtain… ¬_¬

Lazuli.2098:

Eric.6109:

…
indeed, but according to those who participated (or said they did) in that CDI, there is very little, or not at all, correlation between what was suggested and what was implemented.
…

But why were they looking to change the trait system at all?

Microsoft Syndrome, trying to fix what isn’t broken.

Lazuli.2098:

According to the mod’s remarks in this thread the reason we got this totally screwed up trait system at all was because Anet listened to the GW1 whiners who wanted to make GW2 more like GW1. The original GW2 trait system was fine the way it was. The addition of free retraits retraits from anywhere was the only thing needed to make it great.

They could have made it more like GW1 without making the mess we have now. Skills were easy to get in GW1. Only the elites needed to be captured. I don’t remember the skills in GW1 that required you to camp a zone for hours waiting on an event to spawn and to hope that you had enough help nearby to complete said event. Also GW1 had the equivalent of free retraits as well. Blaming this on the “GW1 whiners” is redirecting blame where it doesn’t belong.

I haven’t been really reading the thread, I don’t know what’s going on. But today I find myself in this part of the internet, and is this an oncoming rant… I think it is.

“Sense of progression,” I recall it was said then. I hated those words the first time I saw them. I believe it was when utility skills went behind tiered unlocks. I found that forced and artificial…

I… just don’t like being told what I should do! I have never done big events save for some living story (S1) stuff which was pretty much because I could somewhat naturally find them and did those ever work beautifully making my level 80 crew grow from two to whole five of them. Other than that I think I have mostly avoided group stuff and many of the checklist things, even gone out of my way to do so.

And then the game was changed to trying to tell me what I should do, and even more so later with the… I can’t even stand to write it… it has N and P and E in there. All I can see is an unnecessary addition to make the game to be only one path very unpleasant to me. Much like Final Fantasy XIV “evolved”. Had to gather my heart as tiny fragments from that one. During this year I have gotten to relive that joy.

…So we get to where I claim that the acceptable cost for trait unlocks from the vendor is one copper.
I never had any interest in grinding those champ bag events like mad, or at all. I’m not exactly rolling in skill poins or gold and never would be, for things that used to be there without any hindrances. From my point of view the cost of traits is insane. And the trait reset should’ve been free to begin with if you ask me.
Not really something I’d have to worry about if I ever see traits again, I made random characters for the remaining character slots I had before the update to avoid it. But I ended up not playing any of them, in the end. I can’t see myself doing that in the future either, with that other addition (that must not be named), yay.

And yes, this has been obsessed, clingy, attitude problem riddled me being upset with the game on an update day. Carry on.

(But I must not forget obligatory tiered utility skills rage. This here has been obligatory tiered utility skills rage. Thank you , thank you. I could be here all day—- /cry)

Lazuli.2098:

But why were they looking to change the trait system at all?

By changing the trait system like they did, they created “new content” without creating any new content.

Look at the levels they moved them to. Grandmaster traits are now inaccessible until level 80. Unlocking them is now “end game”. In fact, most of your trait points come late in the game, making it mostly a late to end game activity.

Also keep in mind that while we got the trait revamp and the NPE separately, they came together in China. Put them together, and you get a pattern where every ten levels (starting at 30) you do your personal story, then run around and get traits until you reach the next story cluster. The two together keep you bouncing all over the map for a while, but eventually land you in Orr. The bouncing around is to slow you down and make the world feel bigger, while dragging you through events. I would like to say it creates the false perception of more content, but in this case it’s actually just making people see what was really there and easily overlooked.

It’s a terrible system, and I hate it, but I do get why they did it. They had some good goals in theory, but this was NOT the way to get to those goals. The new daily system (going live later today) looks like it might be a better step in that direction.

Bernie.8674:

The traits are unnecessary for most content anyway. I don’t know exactly how many traits my main character has unlocked at the moment. There are only one or two builds I ever use, so I haven’t exactly gone out of my way to get the other traits. If ArenaNet was hoping to encourage more experimentation, they’ve failed miserably. Guild Wars 1 was head-and-shoulders above Guild Wars 2 in this regard (and in most other regards as well, to be honest).

I just had to quote this part. It makes me sad. It makes me sad that either Anet has succeeded in making PvE content so easy that traits really don’t matter or that they have made a system so broken that its easier to ignore/not care about traits than to want them all for diversity. It makes me sad because it means that Anet successfully set up a system that will slowly bleed its player base of anything but meta builds and the people willing to play them over and over again.

In the end, this isn’t the game I purchased, and not in a good way, which is more of a bummer because they HAVE done some fun things, and they HAVE made some good updates early on. Its just that this and some more recent updates have tainted the milk so to speak.

You can’t really see any white knights in here posting because the BEST they can say about this system is “it isn’t game breaking so pay and get over it”, or “it COULD BE WORSE”. Ya, there’s a shining endorsement if I ever heard one!

What ANet has now is a bunch of new players running around with cookie cutter builds or worse, using whatever traits they happened to get while actually doing what they wanted, with no actual BUILD at all. Ya, really want those guys in my dungeon party! There is no progression if you get to the end of the journey and are no better off than you were at the start.

Lazuli.2098:

Eric.6109:

…
indeed, but according to those who participated (or said they did) in that CDI, there is very little, or not at all, correlation between what was suggested and what was implemented.
…

But why were they looking to change the trait system at all?

They weren’t. It was suggested as a change to acquiring new skills.

So when I got the yellow flashing message about a new build, I knew it was wintersday but I also wanted to believe…. Alas, we are still below Anet hearing threshold.
Go to GW2 Twitter and ask them a simple question: “how can you ignore your community for over 8 months while ignoring a game-breaking mechanic that you have introduced?” Ask them on Twitter and facebook. Don’t let this thing be just like any other thread here. Make this one count!

Wolfheart.1879:

As it is, brushing this huge thread off with hollow platitudes is disprespectful, and ultimately customers who do not feel valued are disinclined to purchase things. To a sub based mmo, it leads to loss of subs, here, it is potentially leading to reduced gem sales. Why should players support a company that willfully ignores them?

It goes deeper than just gem sales for this game, it’s hurting future business as well. Before April I would have welcomed an expansion. Now anything Anet tries to sell me will need to be very good indeed for me to buy it and certainly wouldn’t be something I’d preorder.

Very much so, Eitri. Ultimately, a player/customer who feels valued and respected is more willing to open the purse strings, for whatever the product.

That isn’t to say things need to have changed quickly or at all (although, 8+ months and acknowledgements of flaws tend to sway the argument in that direction), but an actual dialogue, even if it is to justify the change and explain why it won’t be changed again, would be more respectful.

Its great to see this thread discussed more in recent days, even with other issues being more current (feedback and thoughts on new daily system for example), and hope it is a spur for Anet to actually start communicating. Sometimes I still have faint glimmers of hope, some sense that our words may be getting through somehow. The other threads in last few days have given some of that, but I know having a little hope is too dangerous a thing here.

Edit: For the other thread I’ve just done my calculation. based upon 43g and 360 skill points (according to Arantheal. I’ve not checked that accuracy and if wrong please tell me so i can correct), per character, and considering I have 37 characters not traited or grandfathered (26 were grandfathered, plus 1 was traited up the hard way in the new system, leaving 37 made after April to go), the requirements to trait them all fully, if purely being bought, is, (drumroll please)……………

1591 gold
13320 skill points

Serves me right for buying all those character slots I guess.

Yep you are being punished twice. But wait a minute for I have seen the light! You! Yes you are the problem! We have guys like you that make alts nilly-willy without thinking about the new players! Imagine one such player, playing along with a Mesmer when all of a sudden, the Mesmer relogs as a ranger! Don’t you see the axiety you’re causing them? With a flick of a button you tear at their grasp of the time-space continuum and put their fragile minds into limbo!!!! You evil monster you!!! That is why Anet in its infinite wisdom has decided on such lackluster trait system! To deter people like you, who place no regad or care to other players! You had to be stopped. I read an article on the matter, and statistical analysis and matrices have shown that 2 out of 3 players who experience this “alt logging” are then found at their home, in the fetus position, drooling and can only communicate like a Quaggan with oooooOOOOOOooooooo everywhere!
The article also mentioned this phenomenon had a scientific name.
It’s called “NPE: Newbos Patrificus Eternitus”.

You…..you are right. Oh sweet Dwayna! What a fool I’ve been.

I change my looks like a chameleon, my abilities shift at will, not only to entirely different forms, but different variations of each form. I can become anyone and anything at will. I am an abomination before Anet. I am a threat to the fabric of reality, a mortal danger to Tyria.

Truly Anet are wise. Knowing that the Six are unable to intervene, they send their dread agent, Zhaitan to do the job, but alas to no avail. He is dispatched. Many times, and yet I grow stronger, my forms multiply. So Anet have acted again and again. Their new vassal, Mordremoth, their agent, Scarlet Briar. And from the shadows they consult their dark creation, METRIX, who coldly, heartlessly analyses the situation, confident in finding the way to weaken me. They know that destruction is not possible. After all, with 64 characters, I clearly have no life, and how do you kill that which has no life?

So how to do it? With the careful directions of the mighty METRIX, they seek to affect changes in the fabric of reality, in order to clip my wings before I can take flight. By forcing me to spend all that gold, they remove my means to undermine the world economy, and obstruct my quest to acquire a Legendary Weapon, with which my conquest of Tyria would be assured. Then, they ensure that by requiring more skill to grow, learn these traits. They know they cannot stop my onslaught. For I am Legion, but by weakening each of my forms, they render me closer to mortal. Fiendish, Anet is.

Who Anet would destroy, they would first make mad.

My plans for alt domination are close to thwarted. I cannot realise my potential. I do not pose as large a threat as I may have.

Anet, true masters and saviours of Tyria, I doff my Evil Overlord hat to you. A worthy victor! Their plan has been made clear, but too late to stop it. My doom was 8 months ago, and until now, i could never comprehend I was already defeated.

Only now, in the realisation of my defeat, do I understand I was foolish to take the gifts from Anet, for I was cursed from the start.

My only hope is that in January 2015, an expansion is announced, and there are plans to have a massive, massive overhaul of loot, dungeon revamps, trait fixes, new skills etc. as a lead-in patch for the core game as well as the expansion.

That’s a very lofty hope, though, for Anet. For another MMO, i’d probably be like “Yeah, I’m sure they’ll fix the big things come an expansion” but this game…I’m not too sure

Are we still complaining about the trait system? If so, add me to the list of haters. This broken trait system that was implemented for months should’ve been fixed by now. It’s one of the worst ever and detracts from making any alts. I hope everyone who don’t like it stop spending real money in their gem store as a way of show Anet how much support they’ll be getting. Guess whoever cooked up the idea of this horrible trait system forgot to think how he/she will messed up the game for new players and anyone making new characters. Come to think of it, your new characters can make good extra storage slots. Yes, cheap storage slots is what it becomes. You can easily have 100 slots storage. Too bad I can’t find an alternative game yet.

Mo Mo.1947:

My actual newbie friend, unlike the hypothetical newbie you’re all advocating for, doesn’t care about any of that stuff yet. Because she is a newbie.

The trait unlocks annoy VETERANS. WE the VETERANS want a little bit of change in how the traits are unlocked for OUR alts.

The new unlocks system doesn’t affect newbies because they are TOO NEW. They’ve got plenty of other stuff to learn about the game. And in the case of my friend, the leveling system seems to be helping her learn about the game in paced increments without overwhelming her.

This is not about newbies. It’s about veterans. Please keep the arguments about how the trait system affects veterans. There are plenty of valid arguments about how the trait system inconveniences veterans.

Except it isn’t. Most veterans have the skill points and gold saved up to just eat the cost without any problems. It’s a hassle, and a cost that’s really high for those interested in a lot of crafting, but not unreasonable.

And your anecdotal instance of one newbie you know not knowing or caring as a means of dismissing other evidence is not adequate. I’ve recruited over a dozen people to this game since the trait change, and not one of them has stayed for longer than a week after reaching level 80 (or even if they got that far) on the basis that this new system denied them the ability to properly play/build their character when desired because of the overly-high cost of purchasing traits and the difficulty or simple disinterest in doing many of the tasks.

You’re “one newbie friend” might only be accepting of the system on the sheer principle that they do not know about it. Otherwise, it’s a massive deterrent and many newer players are actively disgusted with the system and are not coming back for more because of it entirely.

There is clearly a lot of negativity aimed at this system from both new and veteran players. It’s overwhelming. I’ve also never met a player who saw the new system as an improvement, either, or a new player who felt like being locked out of traits/utilities/elites was better for his experience because he felt overwhelmed.

There’s no adequate defense for this system. It NEEDS to be removed/reworked for the benefit of GW2 in general. If you support the game and its health, you support a change. Defending it doesn’t improve or negate the reality of a genuinely bad situation.

For what it’s worth, more feedback from a new player. I didn’t even know about traits until level 28 when I unlocked one. A group of us were tearing through the caves in the NW part of Lornar’s Pass, so the last thing we fought was the champion ice worm under Durmand Priory. Time to alt-tab out to research what traits were all about. That drastically altered my play since then; I’d planned on doing Lornar’s Pass, but it turned out that the Gendarran Fields had traits more relevant to what I want than LP does. Ditto Harathi Hinterlands compared to the other level 40ish zones. I also had to make a major detour to that bandit cave in Kessex Fields to grab that trait.

On the plus side, the ones I’ve picked up so far (just hit 40) should be enough until level 60, if I understand this stuff correctly. And as other new players have noted, for one’s first character the system isn’t too terrible. It would be nice if there were more options like people have proposed in this thread (I’ve only read the last ten pages, but there were plenty of good ideas to choose from).

On the other hand, I’m probably an atypical newbie. I’m a completionist, so those full map completion traits are no hardship; the only issue is pushing me into a path of zones that I would not otherwise have chosen. It’s not at all clear to me why my asura is fighting centaurs, for example, aside from the gameplay reason “because that’s what the hearts ask for”. Completionism also means lots of skill points, and I’ve already unlocked every skill I can imagine using. Would be nice to get them all, but thanks to this thread and the wiki I now know that I need to save up for the traits that I won’t be able to get via gameplay (those WvW unlocks, at the very least). I’m actually more concerned by the gold cost than the skill point cost at this point. That possibly apocryphal “new player friend” mentioned a few pages ago claiming 10g at level 20 is nonsense; I have a bit over 3g at level 40.

Using the wiki to carefully plan where I go and what I do in game, hoarding skill points, and trying to accumulate as much gold as I can, I should be OK on my first character. The gold sink probably means he won’t be able to do any crafting, but then again this game’s crafting system is atrocious anyway so that’s not as big a loss as it could be. The real problem is my alts, some of which I haven’t even made yet. Trait-hunting becomes substantially less plausible the second, third, etc. times through. Maybe another class I’m interested in will happen to favor traits from zones my warrior doesn’t have a pressing need to visit…

From the sound of it, I would have greatly preferred the pre-April original trait system. It’s also annoying that my ability to build my character is so dependent on the luck factor of how many other players are nearby – so far, most trait unlocks are not soloable, aside from the map completion ones (which would be the most painful to redo on alts). All the proposals I’ve seen in this thread, from account unlocks, to generic picking the trait you want whenever you earn an unlock, to a LOTRO-style “use class ability X a large number of times” revamp, would all be a great improvement over the present system. Hopefully they’ll fix it someday, though I understand the pessimism I’ve been reading here.

Having seen the way they “updated” the dailies system, I have completely lost hope that any change they might do to the trait system would be any less kittened. It really does seem they completely misunderstood what some people have asked in relation to specific GW1 systems and they are kittenting all over systems that exist in GW2 that are actually working fine for the most part.

I really am lost for words at this point.

Yep, that’s what you get when you only consider “matrices” as a legitimate source of information. Matrices told them that players didn’t do event X to unlock trait Y. So they decide to force players into doing so, without asking themselves why players avoid certain content. That’s what you get when you decide on a policy that restricts communication between players and Devs. Like some user has in is sign.: if you have to ask players about improving communication, you are in a lot of trouble already.
I honestly think that the only reason they won’t say anything is because talking to people (apperantly…) is a chore, and they prefere to take the lazy way out. Fear of backlash because things may be concieved as promises, and dissapointment will ensue once they are dropped? Give me a break. It’s nothing but a lame excuse to justify faulty behavior.

nethykins.7986:

My only hope is that in January 2015, an expansion is announced, and there are plans to have a massive, massive overhaul of loot, dungeon revamps, trait fixes, new skills etc. as a lead-in patch for the core game as well as the expansion.

Based on what ANet has done to GW2 since launch and how they’ve communicated with their players, I will not purchase any expansion. It could give me mesmer powers in real life and I wouldn’t purchase it. That’s how much faith I’ve lost in this company.

Worblehat.8697:

On the other hand, I’m probably an atypical newbie. I’m a completionist, so those full map completion traits are no hardship; the only issue is pushing me into a path of zones that I would not otherwise have chosen. It’s not at all clear to me why my asura is fighting centaurs, for example, aside from the gameplay reason “because that’s what the hearts ask for”. Completionism also means lots of skill points, and I’ve already unlocked every skill I can imagine using. Would be nice to get them all, but thanks to this thread and the wiki I now know that I need to save up for the traits that I won’t be able to get via gameplay (those WvW unlocks, at the very least). I’m actually more concerned by the gold cost than the skill point cost at this point. That possibly apocryphal “new player friend” mentioned a few pages ago claiming 10g at level 20 is nonsense; I have a bit over 3g at level 40.

Reading this post is like seeing myself five months ago. I felt the same way until I hit level 80 and got 100% map completion. I still have 19 traits (I finally counted them) that are locked. This is on my main character. Frankly, I can’t muster up the motivation to unlock traits on my alts. Sometimes I get them and sometimes I don’t.

Fun fact: This thread has more views than most of the recent patch notes.

I still don’t think I’ve ever had anywhere near 3500 skillpoints.

I really want to lvl a hunter to 80, but with this current trait system in place, it’s just going to be an all-around terrible, boring, and aggravating experience,. New players get hit the hardest by these terrible changes, but even as an older player, going from lvling 4/5 of my toon to 80 getting access to traits and everything early has made it near impossible for me to revert to this new system, where everything takes massive amounts of time, or a horrendous amount of gold and SP just to start making any kind of unique build.

After leveling a post feature patch character, the only changes I think the trait system needs are to remove trait unlocks from the wubwub and to make sure all the associated events work properly and happen often.

It’s way less obnoxious than elite skills were in GW1, the traits all come from zones about the level each trait tier is unlocked, and a lot of the requirements are things you should be doing anyway (like map completion).

Hyper Cutter.9376:

After leveling a post feature patch character, the only changes I think the trait system needs are to remove trait unlocks from the wubwub and to make sure all the associated events work properly and happen often.

It’s way less obnoxious than elite skills were in GW1, the traits all come from zones about the level each trait tier is unlocked, and a lot of the requirements are things you should be doing anyway (like map completion).

Why should I have to do map completion on my thirteenth character? Also, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Arguing that the system upon which this one is based was worse is hardly a credit to this system. It just means the original system was terrible.

I want my traits back. It is totally idiot to level a toon to 80 and find that it is not playable unless you unlock the traits.

So much people are complaining. When I see that some of them are logging on their account , in order to post their complaints since 8 months, i really wonder why they come again and why they have not just left this game for another one .
Perhaps the hope is still anchored in their mind.

Because right now, for a lot of us, GW2 is still better than other mmo options out there, so we put up with this. Maybe ANet knows that too, which is why they can afford to be so irresponsible with their game.

I have 7 level 80 older toons, i made recently a new elementalist, and leveled it to 80 .
to bring it to 80 i did all towns , starter maps and the maps where the PS led me. after level 70 I just did mapexplore and worldbosses.
I think I played as it should, and ending up with only 2 or 3 unlocked traits is stuppid.
A’net please bring back the old trait system or do a better overhaul.

So, I have a theory as to why traits have been made so unattainable in PvE. (I have this theory since I cannot believe that this issue going on this long is because someone actually thought it to be a good idea by this point.)

If traits are this hard to get, especially for alts, it means the ONLY place you have have full access to the traits early on is in PvP. In essence, if you want to play a fully traited toon as quickly as possible, or test a build, or anything that would require you to have traits, you HAVE to do it in PvP.

Since Anet is trying VERY hard to force players into PvP they have to give as many reasons as possible for them to play it/bolster those numbers. Everything Anet has done seems to be to push more and more of their player base into that game mode while tweaking the other game modes to be either less desirable or include more things in those game modes that feel like PvP.

At least, that’s the impression I have been getting in the last few months.

So, Anet, can someone come back in here and just be honest with us. Is there something being looked at to fix this system? Are we going to see ANY updates to it in the next few months? or have you all washed your hands of it?

Marnor.6125:

So much people are complaining. When I see that some of them are logging on their account , in order to post their complaints since 8 months, i really wonder why they come again and why they have not just left this game for another one .
Perhaps the hope is still anchored in their mind.

Logging in to post here is different to logging in the game is a first point.

Ultimately, for me at least, the reason I am so passionately against this change is that I am passionate about the game. GW1 was my first online game, and I played it a lot, I was so excited about GW2 when it was announced (if honest, I was sold purely on the idea that Charr would be playable. As an avid fan of the Pre-Searing area, I was in heaven). Playing this game has also been amazing. I love the zones, the sense of discovering amazing things. So many nooks and crannies to go through, and the jumping puzzles to me really show off the creative side of the design.

And yet through all this love, the April feature pack did indeed dent my love for the game. There were nice things (wardrobe for example, and megaserver in some ways) which had great points and not so great points (in those examples how town clothes were handled and how the Megaserver dented the RP community, and how Anet showed a huge lack o understanding about that community – Colin’s advice to simply guild up, ignoring the idea behind how RP operates, and even more comical as at that time, the Megaserver placed you anywhere with no regard to world, guild, even party. If honest no idea how it is now. And the worst was this trait system, that has made new characters less and less viable. I still play, but only really for dailies and to get the new LS episodes. I level characters but once 80 I forget them.

Perhaps worse was that the April patch coincided with China launch, resulted in Anet’s Exodus from the forums, in much the same way the Five up and left Tyria. They introduced a lot of changes, many of them quite major, and then ran off before they could get feedback, not even bothering to take into consideration feedback from the announcment. There were some concerns about Megaserver before the patch, and a lot of those criticisms turned out to be justified. Just as more recently people had concerns about the gem exchange changes, and lo and behold, those concerns turned out to be justified. its almost as if the players concerns and feedback have merit. Shocking.

The game is still enjoyable, and after the April pack I continued to support the game, because I genuinely believed that since its a new system with no prior facility for public testing, things are naturally overlooked, and need to be adjusted once things are found on live. The NPE had the same issues, with some things (Elite skills unlocking at 40 for instance). Anet changed their mind from feedback and lowered it down to 31, just a level above where it was before. In some ways, it shows that Anet DO listen to feedback and respond appropriately. Which makes this thread, with them acknowledging issues, but still leaving it as is for 8 kittening months even more offensive. There are clear indications in other threads and issues that Anet have been learning from mistakes, but can’t bring themselves to apply their lessons the one of the thread that kickstarted it.

It makes me think more and more that Anet simply don’t care for this issue. its an elephant in the room, and Anet are very happy to play their fiddle while we are buried in the resultant elephant dung.

Do I have hope that this will change? No. Its been going on for so long now, and their very convenient company policy prevent them from saying that a fix is being worked on, but handily mean they don’t have to admit they are doing nothing. A wish for a change is always going to be here, but never hope now, and even if they do change, the belief they abandoned us and ignored us for 8 months mean i doubt I’ll ever trust Anet on anything they say again. There was a time not so long ago that I would happily buy gems and support this game, and I did precisely that. For the foreseeable future, that will be something I won’t even consider. And they are going to have to do something exceptional in terms of how they communicate with and show respect for there players for me to change that. I’ll still play the game, but my fun is greatly lessened, as is my playtime.

Marnor.6125:

So much people are complaining. When I see that some of them are logging on their account , in order to post their complaints since 8 months, i really wonder why they come again and why they have not just left this game for another one .
Perhaps the hope is still anchored in their mind.

We complain because many of us have been with Guild Wars since the first game’s start and we genuinely love this world and the potential this game had. We complain because we were told this game would/could be certain things and over time the ship has gone WAY off course and as people loyal to the franchise we spoke up and continue to do so because we don’t want to see Anet slowly sink their own ship.

Unfortunately, no matter how much we love the game, at some point we are going to feel like this ship has taken on too much water and we will jump. There is only so much pleading to be heard a group of people can do.

Guys , i’m not different of you , i continue to play both GW. Some of you are constructive like your two last answers show it. However, i’m just pointing that 80% of complainers are just here to make some noise , just to bring more and more negative buzz on this community. Sorry if i made you become mad . Indeed , you are not the kind of person i was pointing about.

To be fair Marnor, some people have stopped playing since this trait system was implemented, and come back here (to the forum) in hopes of finding change. Seeing none, they again voice their anger/frustration about it.

I think everyone in this thread is sincere in their HOPE that ANet is actually working on this despite their lack of communication on the issue.

Marnor.6125:

Guys , i’m not different of you , i continue to play both GW. Some of you are constructive like your two last answers show it. However, i’m just pointing that 80% of complainers are just here to make some noise , just to bring more and more negative buzz on this community. Sorry if i made you become mad . Indeed , you are not the kind of person i was pointing about.

We were mad already. The Asylum has been missing us for some time…..

In seriousness, while we answered you, any anger we display isn’t directed at you. You just ask the very reasonable question, we answer as best we can.