Guild Wars 2

Bandit.8279:

maddoctor.2738:

runeblade.7514:

If the character already unlocked a certain trait book, then that character will not get that trait book ever again.

Why not still get it, but make them account bound so you can give them to your alts?

To help reduce inventory clutter. It would get annoying to farm an area and keep getting these trait books when you don’t need them.

Maybe once there is a complete account unlock they don’t drop anymore?

Good one! I don’t think I’ve seen this suggestion before.

I hit “reply” on your post so I could copy it (linked to your post) to the main trait thread in case Anet is quick on the draw and locks this so I can’t copy and paste.

We’ve lost some good ones because of that.

Copying this here before the new thread gets locked:

runeblade.7514:

It is reminiscent to the GW1’s skillbooks.

Here is how it works:

• Adept Traits- Any mob can drop it.
• Master Traits- Any Champion mob can drop it.
• Grandmaster Traits- Any Legendary boss can drop it.

If the character already unlocked a certain trait book, then that character will not get that trait book ever again.

Pro:

• More choices. Plus it’ll make loot tables more interesting.
• Any additions to the trait system can’t be bad.

Cons:

• It won’t revert to the old system.

This one is too good to lose and the author should get credit.

(Note to self: excellent feedback from new player a few posts up, don’t want to lose.)

Really like some of the newish suggestions – in Wow they used to make you hunt for additional transform spells for mage from mob drops on top of your base one – it worked – you STILL had the basic spell ( as you should have with the low level traits here) then added some cosmetic spells if you wanted/got lucky.

If they don’t announce a change to traits at this supposed amazing roll out of information at the end of January im out – I don’t even care if they are touting one of the most fantastic rethinks of traditional expansions and giving us the sandbox MMO they always promised – it wont be enough to make me grind through this TURGID hellhole of a game mechanic change with any more characters.

Currently the only positive thing about this thread is that its a completely safe haven from condescending white knights…

runeblade.7514:

It is reminiscent to the GW1’s skillbooks.

Here is how it works:

• Adept Traits- Any mob can drop it.
• Master Traits- Any Champion mob can drop it.
• Grandmaster Traits- Any Legendary boss can drop it.

If the character already unlocked a certain trait book, then that character will not get that trait book ever again.

Pro:

• More choices. Plus it’ll make loot tables more interesting.
• Any additions to the trait system can’t be bad.

Cons:

• It won’t revert to the old system.

Works for me, simply because if they won’t revert the system, then we must adjust it.

minbariguy.7504:

The mind. It boggles.

Ever since somewhere late last beta when the whole communicate-a-lot-and-early backfired on them badly with tons of outlets reporting on dropped features, they’ve been on the strictest “Never say anything at all”-policy I’ve ever seen in video game development.

It’s crazy, but the management seems to enforce it so harshly in-house that not one dev even personally leaks something under a throwaway account. Nothing. At all.

Revert to the old system , i have done 7 times world completion and i’m not interested at all to hunt all over the place again on a new character. I want to play like i want , not like YOU want. YOU have taken away my fun to start a new character… this new NPE is NOT fun ..

You actually did the opposite of simplifying the game for the new player .. they are now ‘’ confused ’’ because now they ‘’ Google ’’ for the traits and you have punched in the face every veteran players who knew the old system … well done.

ill never create a new character … ever .. until it’s reverted.

I personally do not like the idea of traits as loot. More RNG? No thanks. So I might have to kill this champ 300 times in HOPES of getting a trait? No thanks. Then you get said trait maybe 50 times and have to delete it because you only have 3 toons? No thanks. I see bloodstone dust everywhere. I don’t want to see trait books everywhere too. Sorry, but I cannot get behind this.

TRAIT SUGGESTIONS for 2015:

For all accounts with at least one level 80 with all (or all except for a few GM ones) unlocked:
Make all of the traits that are currently unlocked on that account apply to all toons on the account, OR…
*Make all traits not unlocked on other toons on those account cost no more than 10 cp each to unlock.

For all new accounts/accounts without a fully traited level 80 cut the current cost of gold and skill points by at least HALF of what it currently is. A better price cut would be 70%, but we both know you won’t go that far.

ACQUIRING TRAITS:

Method One:

Tomes
Adept level tomes can drop from Veteran mobs (60% chance) starting in level 15-30+ zones or from chests at the end of JPs (20% chance) in those same zones.
Master level tomes can drop from Veteran (30% chance) or Champion level (60% chance) mobs in level 40-60+ zones or from JPs in those areas (20% chance).
Grandmaster level tomes can drop from Veteran (30% chance) or champion level (60% chance) mobs in level 80 areas or from JPs in those areas (20% chance).

Tomes can also be obtained at the end of an appropriately leveled dungeon not to exceed more than 2 a day if your thing is only running dungeons.

If PvP is solely your thing then a similar rate of dsispersal from the dungeon PvP tract OR even the traits having their own PvP tract for PvP players to use to unlock them should they want to venture into PvE at a later date. It also gives PvE players another method to obtain them while getting them to try out PvP.

If WvW is your thing, then making them a 40% drop for capping towers (adept level), keeps (master level), or Stonemist (GM level). This will both foster agressive play from people that want to solely level in WvW and still earn their traits while also giving PvE players another avenue to try while giving them a taste of WvW proper. (EoTM is excluded from being able to award the tomes).

Once an account has unlocked all of the traits in this way it is flagged as being unlocked for the account and no more tomes will drop for this account.

Method Two:

All traits are tied to “secondary” heart quests.
Once you can start earning traits, heart quests in appropriate leveled areas (30-40 adept, 50-60 master, and 70-80 GM) turn red to let you know they have an additional “quest” for you to earn that trait.

Yes, it will be more work on your end BUT, it means that people can be directed to parts of the map that they might completely miss or avoid to perform a task worthy of that trait.
It means building some more flavor into the world.
A chance to help teach certain game mechanics that maybe players struggle with at first.
A chance to make the traits be more meaningful to the classes.

(I like this one a lot as it is MORE like the skill quests from GW1 that many people missed).

All of this aside, if you are really bent on keeping things the way they are then you HAVE to fix the broken events currently linked to traits, and not in some temporary band-aid sort of way. You have to fix them and keep them fixed or completely change them already. And for the ones that we ALL know no one does (GRUB), change that nonsense. its rude to have this in place this long and not address even that with as many updates and fixes that Anet has rolled out. Rude. It does not send a message to us that we or our opinions are valid.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

I personally do not like the idea of traits as loot. More RNG? No thanks. So I might have to kill this champ 300 times in HOPES of getting a trait? No thanks. Then you get said trait maybe 50 times and have to delete it because you only have 3 toons? No thanks. I see bloodstone dust everywhere. I don’t want to see trait books everywhere too. Sorry, but I cannot get behind this.

I think if the RNG was more palatable (see my post) and a flag was set once you have them all unlocked so you don’t get the drops anymore then that should work. Remember, its not like you’d be encouraged to hoard them since it would also work in conjunction with an account based unlocked, not just a toon one.

I like the idea of adept/master/grandmaster trait manuals that can drop from various sources (veteran loot, champ bags, open world chests, dungeon chests, …). I’d make them account bound, so you still have to put in some effort to gather them yourself and with a set price to vendor them to the merchant. People that want to hoard them for alts can do so and people who aren’t into alts can just sell them, so it won’t clutter their storage.

If it works like elite skills in GW, I don’t see what the problem is. You can learn traits only if you have unlocked the corresponding number on another character on your account already. Veterans/altoholics will be pleased, as they don’t have to put in the work for traits that are near impossible to get. New players will be pleased to know they only have to pay for the more annoying unlocks once, making it not as discouraging to explore different builds. And Anet won’t lose face by deleting/reworking their precious trait system, as new players will have to go through it at least once.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Xillllix.3485:

Would be better to revert to the old system, which was better anyway.

Nope, would rather not lose new Masteries which were added so we can have the old system back. Especially with the need to pay to change them.

Even if ANet were to decide to revert trait acquisition to the old method (three books to unlock 6/4/2 traits), they need not get rid of the implemented new traits; they need not get rid of the idea that new traits (i.e., those beyond the 6/4/2 per line)_ requiring unlocks; and they need not get rid of the free trait change anywhere OoC..

There’s no programming necessity that says the new system is one piece, all or nothing.

I suspect that’s what Xillix meant, though he did not say that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Xillllix.3485:

Would be better to revert to the old system, which was better anyway.

Nope, would rather not lose new Masteries which were added so we can have the old system back. Especially with the need to pay to change them.

I’d be willing to compromise.

Make Adept and Master traits unlock the old, much cheaper way, but have the Grandmaster traits unlocked the new way.

I figure since GM traits are now Level 80 only, by level 80 you should have a lot of travelling already in, and I think it makes sense thematically, as you have learned all you could from the trainers in the city, and must move out into the world to become a grandmaster in your art.

From a gameplay perspective, the first two tiers are plenty of room to experiment before you dedicate yourself to a few weapon styles, and put in the extra time to specialize in those styles with your grandmaster traits.

/sigh

Still nothing. But I’m keeping a total of gems I _wouldve_purchased otherwise. So far it’s 3000gems or ~$35. Only way to get them to actually take notice of this thread.

Has anyone just thought of the idea of removing the level gating of the tiers themselves and just returning to the old system in that you get 1 point every 5 levels starting at 15, which is the targeted “end” of the NPE, so new players can get their hands dirtied a bit with traits?

I feel like this would simplify a lot of questions currently held by new players:
Q: “What are traits?”
A: Well you see…

Q: “When do I get them? It just says they’re locked.”
A: “You get them when you reach level 30.”

Q: “Why do I have to wait so long; I just finished the NPE and want to dive right in, and what do I do in the meantime to reach level 30?”
A: “Well, I’m not sure about the first part, but you can grind map completion and EoTM I guess.”

Q: “Okay, so I’m level 35, but the next tier is locked now. The next tier’s traits are really conducive to how I’m playing, though, and I want to feel stronger. Why can’t I play the way I want?”
A: “I don’t know. I guess because ANet thinks the Master and Grandmaster traits are actually the strongest despite them not being so?”

Q: “So wait, when I tried asking for help on my build, people told me I need X trait from the Grandmaster line. So I can’t play in this way until I reach endgame?”
A: “Correct. You should have stated you were new to the game and not the class before asking. There’s a difference.”

Q: “So how to I beat Y content if my build doesn’t work until 80?”
A: “Get new traits and utility skills using Z strategy.”

Q: “But I don’t have any more skill points. Where do I get more?”
A: “From the blue things on the map.”

Q: “I’ve done them all just for my trait unlocks. Is there another way?”
A: “WvW or PvP can give you some for getting kills.”

Q: “But I don’t know how to play this class well in WvW or PvP because I’m new, and I’m not really interested in WvW or PvP. Is there no other way?”
A: “Leveling up can.”

Q: “How do I level up without being able to beat Y content which I’m currently stuck on?”
A: “Grind out levels I guess via mobs.”

Q: “Where can I do that quickly/easily?”
A: “You can’t; there is no grinding mobs for EXP in GW2 as per the design of the game.”

Q: “Is this for real? If so this game is awful to new players.”
A: “Yes.”

- As per my experience with 12+ new players/real life friends who joined after the trait rework. Currently none of them play/all have it uninstalled (and have since returned to WoW and other games) because they saw very little in terms of progression and the road too long to make it worthwhile.

The game was originally sold and marketed as “play how you want, when you want.” This is why we have standardized PvP arenas, up-scaling in WvW, and so on. Why is the creative vision which made this game successful moving away from this, and treating our new players like idiots?

Well, an act of utter futility I suppose here. I am back to check in and see what has been happening.

I loved the freedom this game offered me; it feels much more “do as we say” now so I rarely play. That freedom was a huge attraction for me; without it am disinclined to play.

I was lucky to have 7 of the 8 professions at 80 when this trait quagmire hit; I have no desire to level an 8th as it is. It has also totally dampened my enthusiasm for the game and expect more such changes. So, I don’t invest any time here really. I spend it in another game.

But I had great fun here before and like to check in and see if by some wild chance they reverted this.

I’d like to add this info that I posted in another thread that has been buried in the swirling sands of General Discussion:

Trait line 1: 7 of 13 are Group Events
Trait line 2: 7 of 13 are Group Events
Trait line 3: 8 of 13 are Group Events
Trait line 4: 9 of 13 are Group Events (unless you find the Earths Gap chest on a Necromancer)
Trait line 5: 10 or 11 of 13 are Group Events

I know Obsidian Sanctum JP can unlock a trait on some classes as well, but there it is. Play how you want to play, as long as its with other people!

The problem, DeceiverX, is that your example hinges on the idea that someone cannot beat a piece of content. I’m sorry, but my dad recently picked up this game and has never dodged once. He clicks his skills with his mouse, slowly (he had multiple strokes last year).
He doesn’t block.
He doesn’t dodge.
He doesn’t do anything reactive.

And he has only ever run into issues in a dungeon, and only because he was kicked, party never even remotely wiped.

There is no “stuck on X” in GW2’s PvE. That’s by design, it is extremely easy so as to never exclude someone.

Carighan.6758:

The problem, DeceiverX, is that your example hinges on the idea that someone cannot beat a piece of content. I’m sorry, but my dad recently picked up this game and has never dodged once. He clicks his skills with his mouse, slowly (he had multiple strokes last year).
He doesn’t block.
He doesn’t dodge.
He doesn’t do anything reactive.

And he has only ever run into issues in a dungeon, and only because he was kicked, party never even remotely wiped.

There is no “stuck on X” in GW2’s PvE. That’s by design, it is extremely easy so as to never exclude someone.

I seem to be missing something here. What does this have to do with the totally messed up trait system??

Would be nice to play GW2 again before April 2013 huh!

runeblade.7514:

It is reminiscent to the GW1’s skillbooks.

Here is how it works:

• Adept Traits- Any mob can drop it.
• Master Traits- Any Champion mob can drop it.
• Grandmaster Traits- Any Legendary boss can drop it.

If the character already unlocked a certain trait book, then that character will not get that trait book ever again.

Pro:

• More choices. Plus it’ll make loot tables more interesting.
• Any additions to the trait system can’t be bad.

Cons:

• It won’t revert to the old system.

This type of change would be MUCH better.

I now have three characters that I am leveling (the slow way, no L20 scroll, no Tomes, and importantly, no buying traits) to test the NPE and Trait System.

I still find the trait system to be a bad system for me.

• Traits Available Via Content of a Much Higher Level than the Character (when that trait tier becomes available)

I’d argue that this aspect of the system is objectively bad. It pushes the user into purchase of the desired trait rather than engaging with the content, which is the apparent purpose of unlocks via play. This is exacerbated because …

• Traits Are Back Loaded in the Leveling Curve

Traits play a large part in what passes for a character build in GW2. Trait back loading means that for the majority of the leveling process, I don’t have access to my preferred build. Since I find leveling to be the greatest strength of GW2, back loading traits is a major setback to my enjoyment of the game.

• Illusion of Depth

Both the unlocks via higher level content and trait back loading are attempts to insert depth into the trait system that does not exist organically. The problem is that the traits are assigned to different levels of content with no real attempt to ensure that better traits become available later. In most cases, traits are assigned to content by their number within a tier, not by any attempt to rank their relative effectiveness. It might even be argued that ranking traits by tier does not in some cases offer better options at higher tiers. This makes the entire trait system seem haphazard, especially with regard to when one gets access to traits within the adept and master tiers.

• Maybe a Solution

I doubt Anet will revert the system. The old system did not provide real depth to the leveling process. There were complaints about levels > 30 (Elite Skill unlock in the old system) lacking any leveling benefits beyond gear tiers.

So, how to allow the illusion of added depth to continue while allowing for earlier access to preferred traits while leveling and while engaging with the trait unlock va content system. Here it is:

Proposal: When someone completes the first task that would currently unlock an adept trait within a trait line, instead of getting a specific trait, they get an interface which allows them to choose which of the six adept traits in that line to unlock. The next task they complete within that line, they get to choose one of the five remaining traits, and so on. The system would be the same for each trait line and would apply to all tiers (e.g., the first task completed for a Trait Line 4 Master Trait would allow choice of the 4 Master traits from that line, etc.).

Upside: Most of the work ANet has done on the trait revamp will still be in use. The leveling process will still have the same illusion of depth it has now, with the exception that players would have access to their most-preferred traits within a line and tier sooner, while still engaging with the unlock-via-content system. Players could also push less desired traits to less-desirable options, such as zone completion, or events that are bugged or which are less available. The less desired traits might then be unlocked more organically.

Possible Downsides: Players might choose to get their most preferred trait and then ignore the rest of the unlock-via-content system. This is low risk, imo, because the option to unlock-via-coin/SP already allows for that behavior. Producing the “choice” interface would require some work on the part of the developer. However, any revision to the existing system will require work.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Xillllix.3485:

Would be better to revert to the old system, which was better anyway.

Nope, would rather not lose new Masteries which were added so we can have the old system back. Especially with the need to pay to change them.

Both of those 2 things are singular changes that have nothing to do with how you acquire traits in either the old or new trait system and in fact could both be had with the old system and function just as they do right now. So saying you don’t want to revert because of losing those 2 changes makes absolutely no sense. There is no reason we can’t get rid of the bad and still keep the good.

DeceiverX.8361:

Has anyone just thought of the idea of removing the level gating of the tiers themselves and just returning to the old system in that you get 1 point every 5 levels starting at 15, which is the targeted “end” of the NPE, so new players can get their hands dirtied a bit with traits?

I feel like this would simplify a lot of questions currently held by new players:
Q: “What are traits?”
A: Well you see…

Q: “When do I get them? It just says they’re locked.”
A: “You get them when you reach level 30.”

Q: “Why do I have to wait so long; I just finished the NPE and want to dive right in, and what do I do in the meantime to reach level 30?”
A: “Well, I’m not sure about the first part, but you can grind map completion and EoTM I guess.”

Q: “Okay, so I’m level 35, but the next tier is locked now. The next tier’s traits are really conducive to how I’m playing, though, and I want to feel stronger. Why can’t I play the way I want?”
A: “I don’t know. I guess because ANet thinks the Master and Grandmaster traits are actually the strongest despite them not being so?”

Q: “So wait, when I tried asking for help on my build, people told me I need X trait from the Grandmaster line. So I can’t play in this way until I reach endgame?”
A: “Correct. You should have stated you were new to the game and not the class before asking. There’s a difference.”

Q: “So how to I beat Y content if my build doesn’t work until 80?”
A: “Get new traits and utility skills using Z strategy.”

Q: “But I don’t have any more skill points. Where do I get more?”
A: “From the blue things on the map.”

Q: “I’ve done them all just for my trait unlocks. Is there another way?”
A: “WvW or PvP can give you some for getting kills.”

Q: “But I don’t know how to play this class well in WvW or PvP because I’m new, and I’m not really interested in WvW or PvP. Is there no other way?”
A: “Leveling up can.”

Q: “How do I level up without being able to beat Y content which I’m currently stuck on?”
A: “Grind out levels I guess via mobs.”

Q: “Where can I do that quickly/easily?”
A: “You can’t; there is no grinding mobs for EXP in GW2 as per the design of the game.”

Q: “Is this for real? If so this game is awful to new players.”
A: “Yes.”

- As per my experience with 12+ new players/real life friends who joined after the trait rework. Currently none of them play/all have it uninstalled (and have since returned to WoW and other games) because they saw very little in terms of progression and the road too long to make it worthwhile.

The game was originally sold and marketed as “play how you want, when you want.” This is why we have standardized PvP arenas, up-scaling in WvW, and so on. Why is the creative vision which made this game successful moving away from this, and treating our new players like idiots?

Because some genius is looking at metrics and doesn’t understand that correlation does not equal causation. The only way to truly find out why things correlate is to get more data(like actually talking to the playerbase) but then the metrics might show incompetence so they will not go down that path.

ThanatosAngel.8024:

Another alternative solution for unlocking traits could be to have Adept and Master level traits attached to specific Renown Hearts across the map. Grandmaster level traits could be tied to specific Elite or Champion boss enemies in level 60+ zones that are not attached to any dynamic events.

This could be a less frustrating way of getting players to naturally gain new traits as they explore the map while harking back to GW1’s skill quests and elite capping from bosses. And as usual, offer a way of just buying the traits outright (minus the skill point cost, please).

Reposting my idea from September. I’d like to add that if traits were purchased with karma instead of gold+skill points, that would be so much better. And trait acquisition should be entirely done soloable.

Man it’s been forever since I’ve posted here…

By know I think folks understand that the current trait systems is in no way a reflection of how “skills and attributes” worked in GW1. IMO, GW1 has superior system where each of the trait lines had inherent powers that grew stronger the more points you put in. In turn you were able to strengthen skills unique to a trait line.

I have no idea why ArenaNet decided to take this away and not even try to expand on it.

There could have been thresholds where if you allocated enough points you’d gain a new inherent power in addition to strengthening the ones you already have. Skills could have been given special effects like inflicting stun or conditions if you maxed out a trait line.

There was so much that could have been done but it was all discarded…

Carighan.6758:

The problem, DeceiverX, is that your example hinges on the idea that someone cannot beat a piece of content. I’m sorry, but my dad recently picked up this game and has never dodged once. He clicks his skills with his mouse, slowly (he had multiple strokes last year).
He doesn’t block.
He doesn’t dodge.
He doesn’t do anything reactive.

And he has only ever run into issues in a dungeon, and only because he was kicked, party never even remotely wiped.

There is no “stuck on X” in GW2’s PvE. That’s by design, it is extremely easy so as to never exclude someone.

That’s great your father is playing alongside you and I hope that he stays in the best shape possible. Sorry to hear about what was probably a dreadful experience for your entire family.

I don’t know what class or build he is playing, but it is certainly possible to get stuck trying to do things like unlocking an important trait, trying to do an event, etc. I get that they can move to other content, but like I said in my previous post, not everyone enjoys that other content – some to the point of downright despising it. While okay, my post was exaggerating the truth a bit, I don’t see any grounds for disagreeing with the prospect that some classes are near-dependent on these traits for basic functionality in the leveling process.

Consider the thief, where general cleansing only comes from one utility skill’s active effect with a 60 second cooldown, and a trait within Shadow Arts. If you get bumped into a condition-heavy area, such as the Toxic Alliance areas of Kryta, you are pretty much not allowed to go there – or most other condition-heavy areas of the game – until you get your first trait point, put it in Shadow Arts, AND have the trait itself unlocked or purchased. Not to mention that said map is also below the level acquired before you even get your first trait point.

Carighan.6758:

The problem, DeceiverX, is that your example hinges on the idea that someone cannot beat a piece of content. I’m sorry, but my dad recently picked up this game and has never dodged once. He clicks his skills with his mouse, slowly (he had multiple strokes last year).
He doesn’t block.
He doesn’t dodge.
He doesn’t do anything reactive.

And he has only ever run into issues in a dungeon, and only because he was kicked, party never even remotely wiped.

There is no “stuck on X” in GW2’s PvE. That’s by design, it is extremely easy so as to never exclude someone.

I’m sure not a lot of people want to admit it, but it is certainly possible to get stuck on content and there is definitely content that is not “extremely easy” for some people at least.

I’m not sure why you assume that your experiences are the same for everyone else.

Djinn.9245:

Carighan.6758:

The problem, DeceiverX, is that your example hinges on the idea that someone cannot beat a piece of content. I’m sorry, but my dad recently picked up this game and has never dodged once. He clicks his skills with his mouse, slowly (he had multiple strokes last year).
He doesn’t block.
He doesn’t dodge.
He doesn’t do anything reactive.

And he has only ever run into issues in a dungeon, and only because he was kicked, party never even remotely wiped.

There is no “stuck on X” in GW2’s PvE. That’s by design, it is extremely easy so as to never exclude someone.

I’m sure not a lot of people want to admit it, but it is certainly possible to get stuck on content and there is definitely content that is not “extremely easy” for some people at least.

I’m not sure why you assume that your experiences are the same for everyone else.

Even if the experience applies to everyone, the example has very little to do with this thread. Just because this game allows people to be carried through content (to be clear, that’s a good thing, IMHO) doesn’t mean that traits should be effectively withheld from post-April 2014 players. As Chris Rock put it, “you can drive a car with your feet if you want to, that don’t make it a good ****ing idea!”

one thing i DON’T want is traits as something you can farm, books are a horrible idea, better then we have now but still horrible.

it’s really simple, traits should be unlocked from the start and you can use traits from lvl 15.
every 4-5 levels you gain a trait point to spent, master traits are unlocked from lvl 40 and grandmaster from lvl 60.

no unlock needed, no farming crap, no grinding your butt off, no trait books.

I haven’t been in this thread for quite a while, so forgive me if anyone already wrote what I’m about to write:

I made another thief, thief is my main and well, I just wanted another level 80 thief, I had enough tomes to waste anyway. So I leveled him like this: Bring to level 20, do personal story, eat some tomes until the level is high enough for yellows (level 35), craft yellows, defeat mobs 10 levels above. When that got boring or impossible: personal story, tomes, next yellows – rinse and repeat.
In the meantime I tried to get some traits. Reason why I’m doing the personal story not because I like it that much, but because of the traits. Turns out the trait for doing the claw island instance has been removed, which is a good thing actually as getting the story related traits is the most time consuming. But there’s still a trait for “forging the pact”, so maybe that should be changed as well as when I want that trait I still have to do every story before it.

Edit: grammar

When you try to do some of the traits that require grouping (most of them) on lonely maps, you will beg for more story related ones.

GuzziHero.2467:

When you try to do some of the traits that require grouping (most of them) on lonely maps, you will beg for more story related ones.

Well, then suggest that anet adds more traits to the story quests as now you’ll only get one at a level 70 story quest which makes no sense at all and which is the reason I wrote (again) in this thread.

Edit, no I got another trait for “the battle for fort trinity”, the quest right after “forging the pact” – still I think it’s rather uncool to wait 70 levels just to do these two stories to get traits – it would actually make more sense to either get more traits at lower instances or to remove traits from the personal story altogether.

I left a while back, soon after the player experience update, due to losing interest. I reinstalled recently having the urge to pick up an Asura Ranger for whatever reason, decided to look into the traits changes again, and I have to say it, I’m probably just going to uninstall again. It doesn’t sound like it’s worth the pain and annoyance of trying to level a new character, and probably never will be due to the below:

Carighan.6758:

minbariguy.7504:

The mind. It boggles.

Ever since somewhere late last beta when the whole communicate-a-lot-and-early backfired on them badly with tons of outlets reporting on dropped features, they’ve been on the strictest “Never say anything at all”-policy I’ve ever seen in video game development.

It’s crazy, but the management seems to enforce it so harshly in-house that not one dev even personally leaks something under a throwaway account. Nothing. At all.

A bit off topic for the thread, but still something people wonder about. This is probably due to Korean business practice and culture. It came up a lot during a certain MMO shutdown process that NCSoft enacted back in mid-to-late 2012. The shortest (and frankly not as accurate, but close enough) explanation is that Korean business culture essentially expects that users accept whatever decisions are made by the company. It’s a primarily western world thing that the consumer/lessers in the “relationship” will question choices made by their “superior”. NCSoft appears to be bearing down a bit harder on its development teams in the past few years. It’s very apparent that GW2 is being taken back to the standard Korean MMO style of incredibly large amounts of grinding, which is not something that works well with the western audience, but it’s what they know. The problem comes from the environment, as in Korea MMOs are played together, with friends, for long periods of time, whereas in the western market people play alone, and expect to be able to complete the majority content alone if they desire. It’s a case of intent to spend time with people vs expecting a feeling of progression.

Said other game that was shut down in theory was shameful to them, as it was popular and active in the western market, but as it was also a western-styled MMO, and as such they had very little idea as to WHY it was successful. They couldn’t “read” their western customer base. It was an enigma, it was a stain on their reputation, and therefore it had to be removed as it was an inconvenient counter-example to their otherwise “solid” practice. In this way, they can save face and claim that it’s the audience that’s the problem, and not their business practices, and if they just find the right topic or method to transplant their style, we’ll realize how superior it is. GW2 had hints of a more western-style of play as well, but with the Star Wars Galaxy-esque overhaul of the trait system, they’ve edged it back into their comfort zone again. And once again, like their transplanted games and methods, it’s caused a large exodus and lack of interest.

And yes, that’s the short version. The full explanation that I summarized lasted several pages.

It’ll be hard for them to see us as a different market with different wants and needs. They loom over their development teams to make sure the products are keeping in line, and I’d have a very hard time believing that ANet made the choice to implement these changes by themselves, at least in the way it was implemented. Taking it back to similar-to-GW1-style of acquisition? I’m all for that. The amount of grinding they apparently want people to do in order to actually acquire said things? The western market’s never really been a fan of that as a whole, but I doubt it’ll stop them from trying to force it on us anyway. And why would they communicate with us? They know what’s best for us, of course. We’re expected to just accept the decisions of our superiors.

And while this thread comes from an earlier time before the NPE was actually implemented, the direction they were moving in was still quickly becoming clear.

For the higher ups, the facts speak for themselves. Delaying traits, a major feature, until 30, makes people feel a severe lack of progression. Especially when they ask for help and find out that most builds won’t function properly until they have said traits. And once they reach 30 (if they make it that far), finding out that said builds require max level anyway, as well as grinding away in order to either unlock the trait or purchase it with an exorbitant cost. You’re guaranteed to lose customers. You already have, and will continue to do so. You haven’t given people incentive to stay, and GW2 isn’t exactly the most exciting game to level in.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

Colin Johanson and I had a chat about this thread today. He actually brought it up because he wanted to make sure that forum members know that the dev team is very aware of the concerns that our players feel about traits, and also to let you know that the devs read and refer to this subject (and particularly this thread) quite frequently. We’ve said it before, but it remains true: Your voices are being heard and your input is valued.

We wish there was more to say today, but please take heart that this subject is part of current development team discussions and we’ll let you know more as soon as we reasonably can do so.

It’s been nearly a year – I gave up hope, I really did.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Both of those 2 things are singular changes that have nothing to do with how you acquire traits in either the old or new trait system and in fact could both be had with the old system and function just as they do right now. So saying you don’t want to revert because of losing those 2 changes makes absolutely no sense. There is no reason we can’t get rid of the bad and still keep the good.

Yes there is, when people ask for a revert, they’re asking for . . . a reversion to the old system not “oh, keep these parts, and garbage the rest”.

There are three parts to this system which I actually like, and two big ones which make me cringe.

- I like the concept of working for some of the Masteries, to the point where they represent growth in character. A horizontal progression, if you would, rather than vertical. The fact you have to work for it assigns value to having them, as opposed to “I spend skill points/gold and have them”.

- I like the complete loss of needing to pay for Trait resets. This is the big reason I ran with less than useful Trait sets before the rework.

- I like the idea of having new masteries added. It allows for some growth in the system, so long as they’re balanced out properly.

- What I don’t like is how some of the Masteries are earned, such as how one in particular requires TAKING the Gates of Arah but DEFENDING doesn’t grant it. The secondary price is a bit steep if only because I think it should be Gold or Skill Points – play regularly enough now and you can get plenty of SP. Way faster and easier than Gold.

- What I don’t like is how there’s no ways of making it easier on alts to get through earning them. GW1 had the Skill Tomes which could help you out, which was why I threw support behind that idea in another suggestion topic merged into this one. Either that sort of way (requiring some work on it) or to allow them a reduced cost for ones already unlocked on another character.

Jana.6831:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

Colin Johanson and I had a chat about this thread today. He actually brought it up because he wanted to make sure that forum members know that the dev team is very aware of the concerns that our players feel about traits, and also to let you know that the devs read and refer to this subject (and particularly this thread) quite frequently. We’ve said it before, but it remains true: Your voices are being heard and your input is valued.

We wish there was more to say today, but please take heart that this subject is part of current development team discussions and we’ll let you know more as soon as we reasonably can do so.

It’s been nearly a year – I gave up hope, I really did.

This, honestly.

Despite writing that whole essay up there, I had hope for GW2 for a very long time. From the moment the first small annoyances started creeping up, continuing into when bugs that could be considered class breaking would continue to be overlooked for some reason (for instance, pets/minions/illusions were pretty lacking when I left, and from what I can tell there hasn’t really been much progress in that area), to seeing these major overhauls that it seems very few people agree with in lieu of the things that are requested.

It’s been too long. People can only be burned so many times before they stop trusting. And let’s face it. While ANet may be willing to change for us (are you really?), I don’t think NCSoft would be willing to accept the failure and acknowledge a bad decision. They’ve proven that time and time again. I don’t have a problem with ANet, honestly. I’m biased, and I’m pointing my finger at NCSoft. They’ve burned the western market too many times for me to not think they’re responsible. Even if they aren’t, they need to take the blame anyway and learn to deal with a different culture. It’s a skill they obviously lack, and every choice they make to save face only serves in marring their reputation even more.

And saying that to Gaile Gray herself just hurts that much worse, at least to me. Your ship is burning, and I don’t envy your position at all right now. Not in the slightest.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Hey there,

Colin Johanson and I had a chat about this thread today. He actually brought it up because he wanted to make sure that forum members know that the dev team is very aware of the concerns that our players feel about traits, and also to let you know that the devs read and refer to this subject (and particularly this thread) quite frequently. We’ve said it before, but it remains true: Your voices are being heard and your input is valued.

We wish there was more to say today, but please take heart that this subject is part of current development team discussions and we’ll let you know more as soon as we reasonably can do so.

Uh huh. I have no reason to believe the bolded part. The time for nebulous promises like these to smooth things over has long passed.

You have a bad job… I do not envy you. You are the one stuck coming into this thread to give the bad news, or no news, which is the same as bad news. I am another one who gave up hope a long time ago.

I wonder what prompted the devs to ask you to come in today. Usually its something specific like when the commander tags were fixed or the gem store was fixed. Or a big release.

It could be that there have been a number of trait threads starting outside of this one recently.

It is always something.

Wow.

“Please, please, please give us a status update, even if it’s only, “We’re still actively thinking about this issue and will give details when we can.”

Such a post is made. Reactions?.

“That’s not good enough.”

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

#toolittletoolate
#overit

Seriously I would laugh it wasn’t for the fact ive just signed in to find myself still dealing with being stalked by a particular mod.

Mods staying away from this thread has been like a master class in avoidant behaviour – ive lost count of the amount of times the front page has been FULL of responses from Mods with this thread just sitting there.

If it IS really discussed as often as you claim then why has it taken 9 months to let us know its being talked about? 30 seconds writing a response…

Im out anyway – I wont be bullied by a mod with a chip on his shoulder.

Deleting the archives for a ‘cleaner’ front page sums up the herculean efforts at making a badly designed forum worse – there was a lot of useful trait info there.

Personally I think if the devs are thinking about Traits and what to do with them . . . every time they hear about this topic they move it to the bottom of the list knowing no matter what they do it’s going to be complained about.

Even if it’s a perfect, ultimate fix which makes Traits all sunshine and roses . . . “why wasn’t this done sooner?!”.

So, no, I expect they are thinking about it. I also expect like any person, they are reluctant to touch something they tried to fix and screwed up “so horribly” there’s a seventy page thread with a lot of shouting back and forth arguing not whether it’s broken or not . . . but how broken it is.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a means of getting someone to quit. “You’re gonna work on Traits.” “Screw this, I’m outta here.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

This is exactly why I say it’s in place, and while the silence on these things is infuriating . . . if you’re persistent enough in chasing down where the denials show up the most it’s obvious where they’re working.

We’re getting dueling mounts.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wow.

“Please, please, please give us a status update, even if it’s only, “We’re still actively thinking about this issue and will give details when we can.”

Such a post is made. Reactions?.

“That’s not good enough.”

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

I think a big part of the negativity is based on this thread being 8 months old. Makes it seem like it took them 8 months to get around just talking about it.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I totally understand the skepticism that you’re expressing. It has been a long time. But I know and trust the team, and I’ve heard enough details of the plans to give me confidence that progress and improvements are actively being made.

And thanks, from me to you, for not being nasty about it, or throwing a golem-sized boulder in my direction. I know that what I posted isn’t the substantive information you’d like to have. I can say that from all I hear it shouldn’t betoo long before there is some info we can share. I’m not saying “this week” but I’m definitely not pointing at Q2 2015!

Heh, the situation is irritating… not you.

So, no boulders your direction.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Wow.

“Please, please, please give us a status update, even if it’s only, “We’re still actively thinking about this issue and will give details when we can.”

Such a post is made. Reactions?.

“That’s not good enough.”

I still think the Mike O’Brien Gag Policy is a mistake. But, it’s moments like this that makes me think twice.

A few members who post in this thread ask for what you are citing.

Others do not. I, for one, have been clear for some time that definitive action is all I will believe.

‘And I can take off this heavy armor, which is so unsuited for my class’

#toosoon?

Coming soon:
Unlock Minor Trait – 100 gems
Unlock Major Trait – 250 gems
Unlock Grandmaster Trait – 500 gems

Why do I get the feeling the announcement will be some way for Anet to monetize traits instead… expecting three new gem shop items to unlock traits. Ever since their version of “We listen to feedback.” on the commander tag issue, faith in their decisions is drastically reduced.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I totally understand the skepticism that you’re expressing. It has been a long time. But I know and trust the team, and I’ve heard enough details of the plans to give me confidence that progress and improvements are actively being made.

The problem is while you know and trust the team . . . us here on the outside don’t know them and some don’t trust blindly. Especially after what they see as a colossal mistake already made.

I can say that from all I hear it shouldn’t be too long before there is some info we can share. I’m not saying “this week” but I’m definitely not pointing at Q2 2015!

I’m also definitely not on a moa hunting asura down the instant Q3 happens and nothing is said about this.