Guild Wars 2

I don’t understand why Anet ignores the huge wave of criticism and feedback, I mean, sure you can’t react to every opinion here, but over 1.500 players sent their feedback and ideas just in this special thread. So, why Anet, where are you? Why don’t you listen to the majority of players instead of being focused on making much money through GW2? We have so much hope in your abilities and in the game, so please change what needs to change.

The new trait system doesn’t fully reflect the need and playstyle of users. Just give us the option to buy the trait books or even lower the trait costs (skill points and gold) so that new and old players do not have to invest a significant portion of their lives on one systematic treadmill. Leave the trait hunting open for those who want it, but please do not pigeonhold the many players who do not wish to be burned out just by trait hunting

I recently made a new character (11th one) and after seeing that I need to get a 100% map completion at a given map to get the trait that I want… I just went straight to the trader.

Also I don’t like how late new characters get their traits. They feel a bit underpowered in the new system.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Thinking on this, they really should have gone all out when it came to the trait rework, not a mess like this. The traits SHOULD have unlocked as you play through the game normally depending on what you do and how you play your class (meaning most class traits require specific actions), starting when you unlocked traits for the first time (level 30 in this case). It would turn from the mess it is now into a case of pure brilliance as how you played would equal what you got. Below is an example using just the traits in the Thief Shadow Arts traitline and the Engineer Tools traitline to illustrate how I would make it work.

Shadow Arts
I Master of Deception: Use Deception type skills 30 times.
II Slowed Pulse: Suffer the Bleeding condition 100 times.
III Shadow Protector: Give 100 allies stealth.
IV Shadow’s Embrace: Use Hide in Shadows 20 times.
V Infusion of Shadow: Use stealth 100 times.
VI Cloaked in Shadow: Use Blinding Powder 30 times while in combat.
VII Power Shots: Kill 100 enemies with a Shortbow or Harpoon Gun.
VIII Hidden Thief: Steal while in Stealth 100 times.
IX Leeching Venoms: Use 200 charges of Skelk Venom.
X Patience: Spend a total of 3000 seconds in stealth (meaning over all stealth uses)
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Use Shadow Refuge 200 times.
XII Venomous Aura: Use Venom skills 1000 times.
XIII Resilience of Shadows: Get hit in stealth 1000 times.

Tools
I Always Prepared: Use Med Kit ability Drop Bandages 50 times.
II Static Discharge: Use offensive tool belt skills 30 times.
III Speedy Gadgets: Use gadget skills 50 times.
IV Kit Refinement: Equip an offensive kit 30 times.
V Deployable Turrets: Use 50 turrets (meaning actually throw them out, not their ability after they’re out)
VI Speedy Kits: Equip a kit 100 times.
VII Packaged Stimulants: Use the Med Kit skills 1000 times.
VIII Power Wrench: Use Tool Kit skills 1000 times.
IX Scope: Get 200 criticals with the Pistol and Rifle.
X Leg Mods: Spend 10000 seconds total under chill, cripple, or immobilized statuses (not at the same time, of course)
XI Armor Mods: Get hit over a million times.
XII Adrenal Implant: Dodge 1000 times.
XIII Gadgeteer: Use Gadget skills 500 times.

Things like that. It would be basic for the Adepts, Masters would get a little more specific and tedious, and Grandmaster…hoo boy, that can require some serious work.

so instead of a specific quest you make generic quests…..yah, that solves everything -_-
it would be better if the master of your profession has some quests for you to do with a trait as reward, that way it actually feels like you did something for your trait but doesn’t make you do ridicules things or grind all the time.

For the record, since I am one of the outspoken ones, I am doing all of the unlocks via playing the game as possible.

At lvl 72, I have 24 traits earned while playing, 3 bought… all WvW (because saying I suck at PvP is an understatement). To say buying these things puts me in a foul mood is an understatement.

My posts about how many trait points are needed: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/31#post4214959

My post about drop rates for farmed scrolls of knowledge https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/31#post4214929,

My wife’s Google document showing the level inequality between player and traits (http://tinyurl.com/q6vgf93)

… were posted to show how difficult it would be for a new player and, hoping against hope, that Anet pays attention to it.

The Google document does not tell it all. For instance, it did not address the variances in difficulty between traits at the same level, from “hey, cool, I stumbled over this as I played” to “holy hell, I’ll have to beg my guildies for help with this”, to “%#$@!! I’ll never be able to do that” (WvW for me), to “the effing thing is BUGGED”.

I wish Anet would say something. I know why they are not but its going above and beyond here. In this case, I think they should bite the bullet and post to us.

(July 29th: edited the bit with the links because I had put the wrong ones)

For me, I would like to buy s’more character slots, but there’s no way I’m gonna deal with this ridiculous trait system. So, no money for anet. Hope that’s working as planned for you.

I went in with spreadsheets and recalculated everything using wiki for info (I’m Gregori’s wife, his post in question is : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/31#post4214959

In doing so, it makes the difference even more drastic. I miscalculated on my skill point figuring.

Skill points available from skill challenges:
Before level 30 (when they unlock) : 72
Before level 60 (when they unlock) : 48
Before level 80 (when they unlock): 39
At level 80 (after they unlock): 2
From WvW (auto level): 13

Total from skill challenges: 192
Add in the 75 from leveling and you get 267

Utilities (healing and slot skills) not including any racial or mistfire wolf cost 143 skill points to unlock all.

Trait skills cost 360 skill points to unlock them all.

143 + 360 = 503 skill points needed for full unlocking.

503 – 267 = 236 skill points short of full unlocking.

“I know Colin has indicated a desire to push players out of their comfort zones to get them to try other aspects of the game”

Cut 4 brevity.

Colin is pushing me out of the game, and hopefully pushing himself into the comforting unemployment zone.

What an idiotic idea to think that you can actually herd cats in any meaningful way.

Bellizare.5816:

Colin is pushing me out of the game, and hopefully pushing himself into the comforting unemployment zone.

What an idiotic idea to think that you can actually herd cats in any meaningful way.

Not gonna lie, I lol’ed far harder than I should have. Agree fully too. Since this ordeal began I’ve been pushed into other games at a growing frequency. Which says a lot, since formerly this was my all. I gave up everything else once this came out. Here lately, I’ve been rediscovering how much fun Skyrim is since so very many mods have been released for it in my absence.

Granted, the release of Maguuma has been impressive. And has solidified my being here a bit more this last week. Love every bit of that.

KStudios.2850:

Bellizare.5816:

Colin is pushing me out of the game, and hopefully pushing himself into the comforting unemployment zone.

What an idiotic idea to think that you can actually herd cats in any meaningful way.

Not gonna lie, I lol’ed far harder than I should have. Agree fully too. Since this ordeal began I’ve been pushed into other games at a growing frequency. Which says a lot, since formerly this was my all. I gave up everything else once this came out. Here lately, I’ve been rediscovering how much fun Skyrim is since so very many mods have been released for it in my absence.

Granted, the release of Maguuma has been impressive. And has solidified my being here a bit more this last week. Love every bit of that.

KStudios, I think the LS is one of the only things that still keeps many of us going now. My altaholic ways were destroyed by the trait rework, as they were for almost all altaholics.

At this point I daresay Anet needs to either do a massive overhaul of what unlocks the traits (my idea I listed before is a good starting template), or just make the unlocks account wide to fix the problem. If they make the unlocks account wide, I’d be more than willing to force myself through that annoying content just to make sure it was permanently unlocked for all my characters.

I have to say, with the backlash this brought i am surprised they kept it. Then again this is the same game that dilapidated its GW1 fan base.

Daggos Skelito.2910:

“As part of this approach to making traits more approachable, we’ve pushed back the level at which the different trait tiers unlock for new characters in order to better pace the early game experience and to add more meaningful character progression from levels 30 to 80”

I must be missing something here? Wasn’t “traits more approachable” and “meaningful character progression” the old trait system? Serious, does anyone really know why this was changed for the worse???

My take on this? The business partner doing the Chinese conversion said, “Hey, after level 30 when you unlock Elite skills, there’s just Master traits at 40 and GM at 60? That’s not enough benefits for leveling. There needs to be more.”

With the removing of meta rewards (now there are just crafting rewards it seems and I don’t craft) plus this, I now log in to do the story for fun and then log back out till the next one.

This is new GW2. I had ideas for 2 more character to RP with, but now they’re not worth making. It’d be interesting to see the current population figures compared to pre April patch.

GuzziHero.2467:

With the removing of meta rewards (now there are just crafting rewards it seems and I don’t craft) plus this, I now log in to do the story for fun and then log back out till the next one.

This is new GW2. I had ideas for 2 more character to RP with, but now they’re not worth making. It’d be interesting to see the current population figures compared to pre April patch.

Well if Raptr’s numbers are any indication ( and I don’t see why they shouldn’t at least be an indication,. Guild Wars 1 was roughly stable up until June when it slipped a little. However, I’m interested to see what the numbers look like for July when the Living Story Season 2 came out.

Keep in mind Wildstar game out in July and is doing very well. Almost certainly some people went to try it.

ESO on the other hand, has been in a relatively steady decline.

Would just like to pop in here and quickly say how much I hate the way we have to unlock traits now, first time leveling an alt since the patch, it really sucks.

I believe they shouldn’t have altered the core game traits at all, they should’ve kept them all as instant unlocks, instead only making the new traits require some boss or something to unlock.

Bellizare.5816:

“I know Colin has indicated a desire to push players out of their comfort zones to get them to try other aspects of the game”

Cut 4 brevity.

The operative word is ‘push’.

Pull me, that’s fine. Push me? Get lost. I have a severe reaction.

wow this new trait system sucks.

I just came back to the game, levelled a new profession to where I hit the new traits and I dont know if I can be kitten d to continue…..

I cannot describe how disapointing it was to get my first Trait choice (level 35 I think) and go to select a trait……and then to sit there wonderign why I cant, read the tooltip, and get this sinking feeling that instead of the convenience I’d heard about being able to swap traits on the fly, I now had to either buy them (10s+2skill points each!) or go do a load of tasks all over the kitten world to get them…..I just cant be bothered, its really putting me off. I immediatly logged off and I’m not sure I can bring myself to log back on again knowing this is what I am facing. No its not hard, but its everything that GW2 was not supposed to be, grindy, forcing me to do things I dont want to, inconvenient, annoying…..

You were supposed to be about removing unneccessary grind and inconvenience, and about letting people play how they want, not forced to do things….

Now I am either compelled to go do a load of makework tasks to unlock traits or spend what is a relatively high amount of money at this level, and skill points (which I need to unlock skill still)…..

Sorry, but this system is possibly the worst thing you could have done to traits as a method of acquiring them as far as I am concerned.

Edit:

and this just makes me go looking for the uninstall button:
Skill points available from skill challenges:
Before level 30 (when they unlock) : 72
Before level 60 (when they unlock) : 48
Before level 80 (when they unlock): 39
At level 80 (after they unlock): 2
From WvW (auto level): 13
Total from skill challenges: 192
Add in the 75 from leveling and you get 267
Utilities (healing and slot skills) not including any racial or mistfire wolf cost 143 skill points to unlock all.
Trait skills cost 360 skill points to unlock them all.
143 + 360 = 503 skill points needed for full unlocking.
503 – 267 = 236 skill points short of full unlocking.

Whoever thought this was a good idea need firing, really, its a stupid system from start to finish.
No, dont fire them, make them sit in a room and watch that manifesto video back to back for a week straight, then they may understand why this is such a stupid idea….then fire them.

Also, whe the kitten is a T1 trait unlocked in a level 50 zone? I’m level 36, I want that trait….whats that anet? oh I should go kittenmyself you say?

Lheimroo.2947:

Bellizare.5816:

“I know Colin has indicated a desire to push players out of their comfort zones to get them to try other aspects of the game”

Cut 4 brevity.

The operative word is ‘push’.

Pull me, that’s fine. Push me? Get lost. I have a severe reaction.

There’s a line…and I think it’s been crossed.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Daggos Skelito.2910:

“As part of this approach to making traits more approachable, we’ve pushed back the level at which the different trait tiers unlock for new characters in order to better pace the early game experience and to add more meaningful character progression from levels 30 to 80”

I must be missing something here? Wasn’t “traits more approachable” and “meaningful character progression” the old trait system? Serious, does anyone really know why this was changed for the worse???

My take on this? The business partner doing the Chinese conversion said, “Hey, after level 30 when you unlock Elite skills, there’s just Master traits at 40 and GM at 60? That’s not enough benefits for leveling. There needs to be more.”

I always thought the last 50 levels were a waste of time to be honest. Game shoudl have capped out at 30 when you got your last abilities, the last 50 levels dont give enough actual gameplay changes and are just a grind to hit 80.

Should have stopped at 30 and had many more “endgame” zones.

Cameirus.8407:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Daggos Skelito.2910:

“As part of this approach to making traits more approachable, we’ve pushed back the level at which the different trait tiers unlock for new characters in order to better pace the early game experience and to add more meaningful character progression from levels 30 to 80”

I must be missing something here? Wasn’t “traits more approachable” and “meaningful character progression” the old trait system? Serious, does anyone really know why this was changed for the worse???

My take on this? The business partner doing the Chinese conversion said, “Hey, after level 30 when you unlock Elite skills, there’s just Master traits at 40 and GM at 60? That’s not enough benefits for leveling. There needs to be more.”

I always thought the last 50 levels were a waste of time to be honest. Game shoudl have capped out at 30 when you got your last abilities, the last 50 levels dont give enough actual gameplay changes and are just a grind to hit 80.

Should have stopped at 30 and had many more “endgame” zones.

Actually I think there should have been no levels at all, because this whole end game zone thing is so pervasive, that people coming to this game think that’s what most people care about.

The idea of being able to go anywhere in the world and still get some kind of reward is what this game was promoted as and it’s very much how I play it. I’m not a farmer. My rewards can come slower, that’s fine. But I can go anywhere.

It doesn’t really matter if there’s 80 level zones or not to me, as long as I can have fun where I am.

I’ve been to Orr and run around and seen the people farm champs. That’s not what this game was advertised as surely. It’s what the game has largely become, thus people are frustrated.

If more people actually just enjoyed the zones and played, it wouldn’t matter if there were more end game zones.

I agree completely with Vayne and Cameirus about the last levels being more separatist than it should be. I mean look at all the abandoned maps because of the ‘endgame’ mindset. Megaservers have helped negate some of the emptiness but they brought other issues. (OT) I too just run around having fun regardless of the level of the zone. One can not do that safely in all maps without a level 70-80 character.

I think the punishment for this new trait unlock system should be the people responsible are locked in a room and forced to unlock all the traits for every class. They can play how they want as long as it gets done over and over until they are finished. Let them see how fun it is after character number one, then two, three and so on. Let them hit their head on the keyboard when an event is bugged or otherwise a trait is unable to be acquired due to such issues.

my pre-lvl 80 priority: having fun and not getting forced in doing anything i don’t like.
my end game priority: having fun and not getting forced in doing anything i don’t like.

see what i did there, as long as i can do what i like i don’t give a kitten , force me out of my comfort zone and i rather leave then pump money in to the game.

I think the trick is to reward people for leaving their comfort zone, rather than penalizing them for not leaving it.

sorudo.9054:

my pre-lvl 80 priority: having fun and not getting forced in doing anything i don’t like.
my end game priority: having fun and not getting forced in doing anything i don’t like.

see what i did there, as long as i can do what i like i don’t give a kitten , force me out of my comfort zone and i rather leave then pump money in to the game.

Vayne.8563:

I think the trick is to reward people for leaving their comfort zone, rather than penalizing them for not leaving it.

I love both of you.

Yep – that’s what’s wrong here. Players are being forced to pick between punishing alternatives – either grind a few gold and skill points, or spend an hour or three completing Lornar’s Pass. Players face a multitude of such bad choices now.

‘Colin has indicated a desire to push players.’ – all that needs to be said.

A lot of ‘push’ has gone into the game since launch, and it’s driving me off. I can’t participate when the game developers are trying to do me psychic violence. What are they trying to be but time vampires?

There’s no symbiosis here. I don’t get anything from the transaction when I’m told to grind Lornar’s Pass out for the fourth time. So.. yes. It’s sheer parasitism. At least the LS offers something new and fun which I consider worth the ‘price’ paid.

‘Colin has indicated a desire to push players.’ – all that needs to be said.

’When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.

But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?’

I guess he changed his mind.

The only thing that really saved this game for me after the introduction of ascended gear was that the devs very quickly put in alternate ways to get the trinkets and such – laurels, guild activites, etc.

So back then we had a choice of “A, or B, or C”. That was fine.

With ascended armor, well.. we have to do dungeons, world bosses, big events, crafting.. “A, B, C, AND D” – not very good.

With these traits, admittedly there’s an OR – “A, or B”, but neither of the choices is innately fun in many cases.

I look at this game – and most MMOs, as a kind of buffet. Listen, guys, if anybody at Anet is still reading this thing – the chefs at a buffet restaurant have to be content – they have to make their peace with the fact that there is always going to be a certain number of customers who just won’t visit the seafood selection for any reason, no matter how good the chefs boast it to be.

That’s personal preference and that’s just how things are; no fighting it.

For heaven’s sake stop trying to social engineer us into visiting the seafood table or the monkey brains dish. Say you walked into a restaurant and they told you they’d give you a 5% discount if you tried every item on the buffet including the monkey brains – but if you didn’t, they’d charge you 20 bucks extra?

That’s what you’re doing. Stop it.

Bellizare.5816:

‘Colin has indicated a desire to push players.’ – all that needs to be said.

’When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.

But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?’

I guess he changed his mind.

Yeah.

I have this urge to make the devs sit down and watch that manifesto video again and then ask them to honestly say if they think they are still delivering on it, or are slipping into the “traditional” mmo mindset….

I play Guild Wars 2 only because I find it fun, and not because I feel a need to grind anything.
I don’t have a legendary weapon, no ascended gear (except for trinkets and stuff), and I find the LS s2 to be amazing. I play casually, and I love the fact that I can play casually without feeling that I’m being left behind on some grind threadmill.

I play it because I feel ANet lives up to their promise on the game being based on fun.

Titus.4285:

I play Guild Wars 2 only because I find it fun, and not because I feel a need to grind anything.
I don’t have a legendary weapon, no ascended gear (except for trinkets and stuff), and I find the LS s2 to be amazing. I play casually, and I love the fact that I can play casually without feeling that I’m being left behind on some grind threadmill.

I play it because I feel ANet lives up to their promise on the game being based on fun.

Well, with the new trait system you will now have to grind out your traits if you decide to make another character.

Titus.4285:

I play Guild Wars 2 only because I find it fun, and not because I feel a need to grind anything.
I don’t have a legendary weapon, no ascended gear (except for trinkets and stuff), and I find the LS s2 to be amazing. I play casually, and I love the fact that I can play casually without feeling that I’m being left behind on some grind threadmill.

I play it because I feel ANet lives up to their promise on the game being based on fun.

yeah, that went out the window with these changes.

Pushing And Shoving

I would hate to be responsible for putting word into Colin’s mouth, because I have a great deal of respect for him and don’t think it would be fair for him to be pilloried because of some paraphrasing on my part.

When I said “I know Colin has indicated a desire to push players out of their comfort zones to get them to try other aspects of the game”, I was referring in a general way to my impressions after reading a quote of his regarding world completion achievement requirements, as well as some of his other comments in various interviews and videos.

For the example I had in mind, here’s a very small excerpt regarding the fact that world completion requires entering WvW from Q&A with Colin Johanson, Part IV:

World complete is an interesting one. We’ve seen from our data metrics, because it’s on world complete, there’s a bunch of people that play WvW. Because it takes them there to actually get to do it and they end up having so much fun that stay. I’ve talked to countless people who’ve said, “I only went there for that, and I ended up running around and I got so addicted to it that I can’t stop playing it.”

Folks can infer what they want from that, and I took it to mean basically what I said, but I really wouldn’t want to misrepresent his position on something like this.

I don’t think Colin is trying to force players to do things they don’t like, but rather to encourage them to try things they might like.

Maybe that’s too academic a distinction, but given any doubt, I think he deserves the benefit of it.

Alt Halt

My previous post counseling patience may have given the impression I’m okay with the current trait regime, but I would like to clarify that I am not.

Since coming off a roughly six-month hiatus, I have created three new alts (I’m an altaholic and proud of it) that are approaching the need to purchase their first traits.

Because I don’t think the current trait unlock requirements or purchase alternatives are properly balanced, I have suspended further progress of these characters until significant changes are made. Basically, I don’t want to put a lot of time, skill points or money into a system I don’t think is sustainable.

Thus if anyone was wondering, I consider this issue a game-stopper for my new alts, and can only begin to imagine what sort of effects it must be having on new players or the long-term health of the game if allowed to continue indefinitely.

I don’t think we are likely to see major changes soon, but I do think major changes will be necessary, and — aside from the voluminous negative feedback here and elsewhere — I’m pretty sure ArenaNet’s data metrics will show it.

I think it is completely reasonable for a developer who has spent millions of dollars producing a game to encourage players to experience as much of that expensive content as possible

Ashen.2907:

I think it is completely reasonable for a developer who has spent millions of dollars producing a game to encourage players to experience as much of that expensive content as possible

You make it sound like he spent his own money. I know that I spent my own money to buy the game.

Bellizare.5816:

Ashen.2907:

I think it is completely reasonable for a developer who has spent millions of dollars producing a game to encourage players to experience as much of that expensive content as possible

You make it sound like he spent his own money. I know that I spent my own money to buy the game.

I am referring to Anet as the developer of GW2.

Majic.4801:

Pushing And Shoving

I would hate to be responsible for putting word into Colin’s mouth, because I have a great deal of respect for him and don’t think it would be fair for him to be pilloried because of some paraphrasing on my part.

When I said “I know Colin has indicated a desire to push players out of their comfort zones to get them to try other aspects of the game”, I was referring in a general way to my impressions after reading a quote of his regarding world completion achievement requirements, as well as some of his other comments in various interviews and videos.

For the example I had in mind, here’s a very small excerpt regarding the fact that world completion requires entering WvW from Q&A with Colin Johanson, Part IV:

World complete is an interesting one. We’ve seen from our data metrics, because it’s on world complete, there’s a bunch of people that play WvW. Because it takes them there to actually get to do it and they end up having so much fun that stay. I’ve talked to countless people who’ve said, “I only went there for that, and I ended up running around and I got so addicted to it that I can’t stop playing it.”

Folks can infer what they want from that, and I took it to mean basically what I said, but I really wouldn’t want to misrepresent his position on something like this.

I don’t think Colin is trying to force players to do things they don’t like, but rather to encourage them to try things they might like.

Maybe that’s too academic a distinction, but given any doubt, I think he deserves the benefit of it.

Alt Halt

My previous post counseling patience may have given the impression I’m okay with the current trait regime, but I would like to clarify that I am not.

Since coming off a roughly six-month hiatus, I have created three new alts (I’m an altaholic and proud of it) that are approaching the need to purchase their first traits.

Because I don’t think the current trait unlock requirements or purchase alternatives are properly balanced, I have suspended further progress of these characters until significant changes are made. Basically, I don’t want to put a lot of time, skill points or money into a system I don’t think is sustainable.

Thus if anyone was wondering, I consider this issue a game-stopper for my new alts, and can only begin to imagine what sort of effects it must be having on new players or the long-term health of the game if allowed to continue indefinitely.

I don’t think we are likely to see major changes soon, but I do think major changes will be necessary, and — aside from the voluminous negative feedback here and elsewhere — I’m pretty sure ArenaNet’s data metrics will show it.

Thanks for the clarification.

Also, the rest of your post about alts is almost exactly what I would have posted if I was able to write as well as you. Thanks for that as well.

Ashen.2907:

Bellizare.5816:

Ashen.2907:

I think it is completely reasonable for a developer who has spent millions of dollars producing a game to encourage players to experience as much of that expensive content as possible

You make it sound like he spent his own money. I know that I spent my own money to buy the game.

I am referring to Anet as the developer of GW2.

Oops. But in any event, we are the consumers, and have paid it back several times over. And encourage indicates that there is some reward. The only reward here is something that was taken away from us in the first place.

So if you like the way it works, good for you. We will see in a year or so how it all plays out. I have 80’s that I logged in, ran the LS in a few hours and ended up with a bunch more gold that I don’t need to spend. How does this help the game?

Bellizare.5816:

Ashen.2907:

Bellizare.5816:

Ashen.2907:

I think it is completely reasonable for a developer who has spent millions of dollars producing a game to encourage players to experience as much of that expensive content as possible

You make it sound like he spent his own money. I know that I spent my own money to buy the game.

I am referring to Anet as the developer of GW2.

Oops. But in any event, we are the consumers, and have paid it back several times over. And encourage indicates that there is some reward. The only reward here is something that was taken away from us in the first place.

So if you like the way it works, good for you. We will see in a year or so how it all plays out. I have 80’s that I logged in, ran the LS in a few hours and ended up with a bunch more gold that I don’t need to spend. How does this help the game?

Apparently I need to expand on my previous post.

I was agreeing with Majic’s commentary, and direct quote from Colin, on the benefits of encouraging players to try out different things in game. Encouraging people to try WvW is a good thing. A very good thing in my opinion because it has the potential to increase the replay value of the game immensely for a given individual.

Mandating killing a specific boss, or completing a specific zone, etc is not encouraging players to try different aspects of the game for the simple reason that, for example, finishing one particular zone is not really, from a game-play perspective, trying anything different.

The trait acquisition changes have not had an immediate impact on me because I prefer to play a single main character in an MMO. The change will have a long term impact on me because I generally do play around a bit with alts over time to get a better understanding of the mechanics of each given class, from the inside, for PvP and PvE group play. In the long term the change is likely to make my exploration of the entirety of the game experience less enjoyable.

My apologies for not posting at greater length previously. I felt that most of what I had to say had been said many times over.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Thinking on this, they really should have gone all out when it came to the trait rework, not a mess like this. The traits SHOULD have unlocked as you play through the game normally depending on what you do and how you play your class (meaning most class traits require specific actions), starting when you unlocked traits for the first time (level 30 in this case). It would turn from the mess it is now into a case of pure brilliance as how you played would equal what you got. Below is an example using just the traits in the Thief Shadow Arts traitline and the Engineer Tools traitline to illustrate how I would make it work.

Shadow Arts
I Master of Deception: Use Deception type skills 30 times.
II Slowed Pulse: Suffer the Bleeding condition 100 times.
III Shadow Protector: Give 100 allies stealth.
IV Shadow’s Embrace: Use Hide in Shadows 20 times.
V Infusion of Shadow: Use stealth 100 times.
VI Cloaked in Shadow: Use Blinding Powder 30 times while in combat.
VII Power Shots: Kill 100 enemies with a Shortbow or Harpoon Gun.
VIII Hidden Thief: Steal while in Stealth 100 times.
IX Leeching Venoms: Use 200 charges of Skelk Venom.
X Patience: Spend a total of 3000 seconds in stealth (meaning over all stealth uses)
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Use Shadow Refuge 200 times.
XII Venomous Aura: Use Venom skills 1000 times.
XIII Resilience of Shadows: Get hit in stealth 1000 times.

Tools
I Always Prepared: Use Med Kit ability Drop Bandages 50 times.
II Static Discharge: Use offensive tool belt skills 30 times.
III Speedy Gadgets: Use gadget skills 50 times.
IV Kit Refinement: Equip an offensive kit 30 times.
V Deployable Turrets: Use 50 turrets (meaning actually throw them out, not their ability after they’re out)
VI Speedy Kits: Equip a kit 100 times.
VII Packaged Stimulants: Use the Med Kit skills 1000 times.
VIII Power Wrench: Use Tool Kit skills 1000 times.
IX Scope: Get 200 criticals with the Pistol and Rifle.
X Leg Mods: Spend 10000 seconds total under chill, cripple, or immobilized statuses (not at the same time, of course)
XI Armor Mods: Get hit over a million times.
XII Adrenal Implant: Dodge 1000 times.
XIII Gadgeteer: Use Gadget skills 500 times.

Things like that. It would be basic for the Adepts, Masters would get a little more specific and tedious, and Grandmaster…hoo boy, that can require some serious work.

I just want to say that while the numbers would take some adjusting, THIS is what they should have done. It unlocks traits that associate with your playstyle, just as using a weapon unlocks more weapon skills with it.

As for the current system, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: It’s a way to shift traits from what they were and make them into late/end game content. That’s why they so often require you to be higher level to earn it by feat than when you could unlock the trait with gold/skill points. It’s also why they slowed the gaining of the points, and made the trait tiers unlock so much later. Grandmaster traits are “end game” now, which is also why all the new traits they added are Grandmaster traits, even when some of them don’t deserve to be.

Ashen.2907:

Bellizare.5816:

Ashen.2907:

Bellizare.5816:

Ashen.2907:

I think it is completely reasonable for a developer who has spent millions of dollars producing a game to encourage players to experience as much of that expensive content as possible

You make it sound like he spent his own money. I know that I spent my own money to buy the game.

I am referring to Anet as the developer of GW2.

Oops. But in any event, we are the consumers, and have paid it back several times over. And encourage indicates that there is some reward. The only reward here is something that was taken away from us in the first place.

So if you like the way it works, good for you. We will see in a year or so how it all plays out. I have 80’s that I logged in, ran the LS in a few hours and ended up with a bunch more gold that I don’t need to spend. How does this help the game?

Apparently I need to expand on my previous post.

I was agreeing with Majic’s commentary, and direct quote from Colin, on the benefits of encouraging players to try out different things in game. Encouraging people to try WvW is a good thing. A very good thing in my opinion because it has the potential to increase the replay value of the game immensely for a given individual.

Mandating killing a specific boss, or completing a specific zone, etc is not encouraging players to try different aspects of the game for the simple reason that, for example, finishing one particular zone is not really, from a game-play perspective, trying anything different.

The trait acquisition changes have not had an immediate impact on me because I prefer to play a single main character in an MMO. The change will have a long term impact on me because I generally do play around a bit with alts over time to get a better understanding of the mechanics of each given class, from the inside, for PvP and PvE group play. In the long term the change is likely to make my exploration of the entirety of the game experience less enjoyable.

My apologies for not posting at greater length previously. I felt that most of what I had to say had been said many times over.

Thanks for expanding. I also tend to play in your style. I have two 80’s, essentially the main and alt. I really loved rolling up temp alts to try other careers-races-builds. I’ve deleted so many 60-80’s.

But, I did spend on them, and bought jewels. Now I have little reason to buy, and so much gold that when I see something cool on the TP, I just convert for the jewels.

I still love the game. Now I roll alts and burn them at around 30, because it just starts to feel so grindy at that point for me.

Ashen.2907:

I think it is completely reasonable for a developer who has spent millions of dollars producing a game to encourage players to experience as much of that expensive content as possible

No its not.

Its Bliz and dailies all over again.

Its a dev going “we made this content you should play it”, “you are not playing it by choice, we will make you”.

Its petulant on their part and its a total misunderstanding of the issue…that if people are not playing content by choice, its not good enough. All they are doing is forcing people to do things they dont want to, building resentment, and pushing people away from the game.

“the customer is always right” is massively misused in most circumstances, however in this one, its spot on. The customer (players) are always right in what content is best, its the ones they are playing. If the devs want players to play their content, they need to make it of a quality that people want to play, not use a stick to beat them into it.

Because the devs spent time and effort making it is absolutely the worst reason to force people into content.

Edit – just saw your expanded post, so this is not all that relevant to your position,, but leaving it here as its still valid to the discussion.

Please make ALL Orr traits trigger on ‘Defend’, and not just on ‘Take’.

I have yet to see a contested Gates of Arah, and due to the megaserver, I can no longer Guest on another server to find one.

I do not see the point in creating Trait ‘Adventures’ that are impossible to complete by experiencing the game. I am not interested in paying money for multiple traits, across 13 characters.

Cameirus.8407:

they need to make it of a quality that people want to play, not use a stick to beat them into it.

Encouraging people to try out different aspects of the game is not necessarily anything to do with the quality of those different aspects. Colin specifically mentioned WvW because some PvE exclusive players might find that they enjoy it even though they normally dislike PvP(ish) aspects of other MMOs. Again not good vs bad quality but rather variety.

Cameirus.8407:

Because the devs spent time and effort making it is absolutely the worst reason to force people into content.

Agreed. Then again no developer is capable of forcing me, or anyone else for that matter, to play content that I do not wish to play.

Ashen.2907:

Cameirus.8407:

they need to make it of a quality that people want to play, not use a stick to beat them into it.

Encouraging people to try out different aspects of the game is not necessarily anything to do with the quality of those different aspects. Colin specifically mentioned WvW because some PvE exclusive players might find that they enjoy it even though they normally dislike PvP(ish) aspects of other MMOs. Again not good vs bad quality but rather variety.

Cameirus.8407:

Because the devs spent time and effort making it is absolutely the worst reason to force people into content.

Agreed. Then again no developer is capable of forcing me, or anyone else for that matter, to play content that I do not wish to play.

Sure they are.

Unless, of course, you are speaking absolutely literally about an ANET employee coming over to your house and forcing your with hot pokers, then no, they can’t force you.

However, in this current state of affairs with their Trait re-vamp, yes, they are forcing you to do content you do not wish to do, or farm for gold and skill points. If you want a specific build, with the traits to support it, that require you to enter dungeons, or kill world bosses, or complete certain zones, or WvW, then you have to do that content that you do not wish to do to accomplish your goals.

For myself, as a consumer and as a player, I refuse to let a company treat me like this and ignore their community in such an abhorrent way. They forced me out of the game by their behaviors. That, I think, is a much more important result of their manipulations.

Illysharia.7286:

Ashen.2907:

Cameirus.8407:

they need to make it of a quality that people want to play, not use a stick to beat them into it.

Encouraging people to try out different aspects of the game is not necessarily anything to do with the quality of those different aspects. Colin specifically mentioned WvW because some PvE exclusive players might find that they enjoy it even though they normally dislike PvP(ish) aspects of other MMOs. Again not good vs bad quality but rather variety.

Cameirus.8407:

Because the devs spent time and effort making it is absolutely the worst reason to force people into content.

Agreed. Then again no developer is capable of forcing me, or anyone else for that matter, to play content that I do not wish to play.

Sure they are.

Unless, of course, you are speaking absolutely literally about an ANET employee coming over to your house and forcing your with hot pokers, then no, they can’t force you.

However, in this current state of affairs with their Trait re-vamp, yes, they are forcing you to do content you do not wish to do, or farm for gold and skill points. If you want a specific build, with the traits to support it, that require you to enter dungeons, or kill world bosses, or complete certain zones, or WvW, then you have to do that content that you do not wish to do to accomplish your goals.

For myself, as a consumer and as a player, I refuse to let a company treat me like this and ignore their community in such an abhorrent way. They forced me out of the game by their behaviors. That, I think, is a much more important result of their manipulations.

Indeed no one from Anet is going to force you. The terms, “force,” and, “forced,” are greatly overused (and misused for that matter).

As to the version of forced used here: “..yes, they are forcing you to do content you do not wish to do…”

1) You may not like some specific piece of content, but others may enjoy that same piece of content very much. This means that the general claim, as quoted, is misleading. It implies that everyone must complete content they dislike in order to create a preferred or desired build. This is not the case.

2) How forced is it if you are allowed to bypass the forced element, as you mention above, with alternate means of acquisition ?

“Anet forced me to do specific content that I do not enjoy in order to acquire the trait I want. My only alternative is to play any aspect of the game I wish and spend the currency so acquired to buy the trait.”

Not really a sold example of being forced into something you don’t want to do.

I don’t care for the system either, but hyperbole and/or outright misrepresentation of the situation do not help the argument.

Ashen.2907:

Illysharia.7286:

Ashen.2907:

Cameirus.8407:

they need to make it of a quality that people want to play, not use a stick to beat them into it.

Encouraging people to try out different aspects of the game is not necessarily anything to do with the quality of those different aspects. Colin specifically mentioned WvW because some PvE exclusive players might find that they enjoy it even though they normally dislike PvP(ish) aspects of other MMOs. Again not good vs bad quality but rather variety.

Cameirus.8407:

Because the devs spent time and effort making it is absolutely the worst reason to force people into content.

Agreed. Then again no developer is capable of forcing me, or anyone else for that matter, to play content that I do not wish to play.

Sure they are.

Unless, of course, you are speaking absolutely literally about an ANET employee coming over to your house and forcing your with hot pokers, then no, they can’t force you.

However, in this current state of affairs with their Trait re-vamp, yes, they are forcing you to do content you do not wish to do, or farm for gold and skill points. If you want a specific build, with the traits to support it, that require you to enter dungeons, or kill world bosses, or complete certain zones, or WvW, then you have to do that content that you do not wish to do to accomplish your goals.

For myself, as a consumer and as a player, I refuse to let a company treat me like this and ignore their community in such an abhorrent way. They forced me out of the game by their behaviors. That, I think, is a much more important result of their manipulations.

Indeed no one from Anet is going to force you. The terms, “force,” and, “forced,” are greatly overused (and misused for that matter).

As to the version of forced used here: “..yes, they are forcing you to do content you do not wish to do…”

1) You may not like some specific piece of content, but others may enjoy that same piece of content very much. This means that the general claim, as quoted, is misleading. It implies that everyone must complete content they dislike in order to create a preferred or desired build. This is not the case.

2) How forced is it if you are allowed to bypass the forced element, as you mention above, with alternate means of acquisition ?

“Anet forced me to do specific content that I do not enjoy in order to acquire the trait I want. My only alternative is to play any aspect of the game I wish and spend the currency so acquired to buy the trait.”

Not really a sold example of being forced into something you don’t want to do.

I don’t care for the system either, but hyperbole and/or outright misrepresentation of the situation do not help the argument.

I think you are arguing just for the sake of the mental exercise, and creating a off-topic that beats the purpose of intent here. I’m not even going to counter elaborate to engage you further to traipse down your merry path. I was pretty clear in my post, and hair-splitting doesn’t benefit this thread.

Back on track.

Honestly, I if ANET gave two beans about this, there would have been changes to fix the current state of things. Months have gone by without any comment by Chris, or any CR, which pretty much spells out that this thread and it’s feedback are a complete sham. Look at the current state of the posts for the last 5 or more pages: people are resorting to pleading and begging now.

Their focus now is on their Chinese market, and all the millions they are going to rake in from them now that their paws are finally on the game. The few that leave due to this trait change aren’t even a drop in the bucket compared to what they’ll be dancing in. The ones that remain, well, those are the people that prove to ANET that no matter what they do, they’ll passively follow along, or blindly, glowingly defend them.

I suppose what appalls me the most is that Chris Whiteside feels it’s A-OK to treat people with disdain. For all the grandiosity of the open lines of communication show that was put on not too long ago, this thread alone is a stellar example of how business is done over there.

They really might as well lock this thread. What is the point of keeping it open?

Just got my first character to 80 post trait changes. +1 to all the complaints here. I don’t mind going around the world completing events and things, but I would rather it be for a vanity item (remember the black moa chick from gw1?) than for essential traits for my character.

I don’t think there’s reason to lock this thread, they probably plan to adjust this at some point, but it’s a bit too early to expect changes to it, and they have sort of stopped telegraphing their plans very far in advance. So all we can do is just keep providing feedback.

Blix.8021:

Just got my first character to 80 post trait changes. +1 to all the complaints here. I don’t mind going around the world completing events and things, but I would rather it be for a vanity item (remember the black moa chick from gw1?) than for essential traits for my character.

The black moa in GW1 was fun and exciting! There are so many ways they could get you to explore. Example: Scarlett’s Minions, what a rush!

Seriously, is it just me or characters much weaker now until way past 80? The alt I created after 4/15/14 really didn’t seem playable till way after lvl 80. Yea, something needs to change here and fast!

And I quote: “We want it to be much easier to experiment with and learn new builds as you explore the world of Tyria.”

If this is truly what you want, bring back the old trait system and think of something else!

i started playing couple of weeks ago. my problem with the trait system is the cost, if you buy them from a trainer. the coin price is ok (though being new, i have little of it) but whats bothers me is the skill-point cost.

i would also like to get more trait points, but i guess thats a game-mechanic issue.

I still don’t understand why the change was made in first place. Instead of exploring for traits, its more like buy gems then convert them to gold to unlock them for better and faster experience. I stopped making new alts because of the gold+skill pts+ amount of time, and when new people come in, I feel like I have to tell them to buy gems first rather than play the game. I don’t see any joy of exploring when I have to complete the same map 3 times in a row to get a trait that I can’t even properly utilize until I’m level 80 with full exotic gears. I’m starting to think developers are just trolling us and telling us to get a job and then buy gold rather than farming for them