Guild Wars 2

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Vayne.8563:

Kohlteth.3715:

I was referring to this thread that they created for feedback on the new system, and then nothing back from them, not a word in 30 pages.

So you’re saying that changing stuff isn’t as good as them saying something in this thread.

Anet put in an update and asked for comments. They changed what they did based on comments. You come in and say they did nada.

What they didn’t do was type something on a forum. What they did do was change something people asked to be changed. I’m convinced more changes are coming but that they’ll take time.

Why not say something? Possibly because they’re trying a variety of things and don’t want to talk about stuff they can’t do.

Obviously they do not have the QA for proper testing so they should run these things by the community for feedback on any possible outcomes they haven’t thought of. So they should say something. Dropping blind and untested changes over and over is a recipe for failure

yes, exactly what you said here.

They cant test these things, therefore, they should at least try to get preliminary feedback. With neither, you have these big sweeping changes that can sometimes miss the mark

Vayne.8563:

Kohlteth.3715:

I was referring to this thread that they created for feedback on the new system, and then nothing back from them, not a word in 30 pages.

So you’re saying that changing stuff isn’t as good as them saying something in this thread.

Anet put in an update and asked for comments. They changed what they did based on comments. You come in and say they did nada.

What they didn’t do was type something on a forum. What they did do was change something people asked to be changed. I’m convinced more changes are coming but that they’ll take time.

Why not say something? Possibly because they’re trying a variety of things and don’t want to talk about stuff they can’t do.

They did do something, that’s true.

But what did they do? They basically pulled the worst offenders like the FGS completion, but they left the bulk of the system intact. Including the primary things that are being complained about – the disparity between effort required and reward, and the off-kilter level requirements to attain many of the traits.

So it comes off feeling like they addressed the political kittenstorm more than the substance of the complaints. I’m left with the impression that the system that exists now is exactly what the developers want – and kitten to our complaints about it; the developers know best.

That mind set.. that I’m being forced to see in Arenanet lately, is always death for gaming companies. The developers do not know best. The players do.

Edit: I’m not saying I ‘know best’. But based on this thread and the chat I’ve seen in game, the discontent here is pretty representative. And that if the discontent is as broad as I suspect, it will eventually show itself to Arenanet in player actions. Players are already engaged in trying to find the easiest ways to level and get traits later – that is, they’re already simply trying to WORK AROUND what Anet has put into the game. Very telling that they by and large aren’t engaging with it as intended.

IMO they should’ve never started the whole “unlock trait” crap, i already don’t like it that i have to grind my way to lvl 60 just so i can make the build i want, unlocking traits makes it pretty much impossible to enjoy a new character.
better yet, i have a thief i want to delete and remake (they don’t offer race change any time soon), till they change the trait system i am not even thinking of deleting my thief for now…….not worth the frustration.

So my warrior alt hit 80, and I went through my traits finding the ones I at least mostly thought were gonna be useful. I had to buy 12 manuals straight off the bat because they required 100% zone completion, WvW, or other impossible stuff. Then I went unlocking the two exploration traits I wanted, so that was easy. The rest requires me to finish my personal story, which I have zero desire to do now it no longer gives me exp to help me level.

Then there’s the following:
- Defeat the Risen High Wizard and secure the Promenade of the Gods: gates are under Pact control, people keep defending, the wizard that spawns during the defense doesn’t give the trait.
- Defeat the Dredge Commissar: the In Pursuit of Knowledge meta is broken and Fridgardr Lodge can’t be taken, the meta can’t complete, I can’t get the trait unlock.
- Defeat the Infinity Coil Commander: the Infinity Coil is open and again, the defense has to FAIL for anyone to even have a chance of getting this trait unlocked.

So even if you wait til 80 to start unlocking stuff, you’re still forced to buy most of your traits, the ones you don’t buy are annoying or downright impossible to do because they require failed events and idling in a zone for ages hoping to catch it on the rebound, or they’re ACTIVELY BUGGED OUT.

I am having so much fun with this trait unlock system. Really. /sarcasm

The Foul Bear Chieftain (required for a trait) is also bugged out. “Killing the Ogre leaders of Sapper’s Delve” requires us to talk to Scout Tahiri.

I have been trying to find this scout for 2 weeks. I have not been the only one trying this. A couple of them I remember from previous attempts. It is obviously something a lot of people are having problems with.

I have decided that I am going to finish one of the two alts I was planning. However, the second one was going to be a re rolled necro. I just wanted a necro in a different race, however, I will be sticking with the one that was grandfathered in.

In case anyone wants to see exactly how bad this is, my wife sat down and did all of the math. It’s posted on Google documents: http://tinyurl.com/q6vgf93 . The legend for the colors is on the right.

This does not include how difficult each unlock is, nor does it include bugged unlocks.

My wife has a much more in depth version typed out that, if anyone wants to see, PM me and I will relay it to you. Its a bit grim.

i like the whole bs about our character created before the patch will be grandfathered in, just checked my lvl 24 necro who i haven’t played in awhile, it’s all locked and have to buy the traits 1 at a time, chock this crap trait system up to belonging with the garbage mega server i guess and learn not to believe anet about things

I don’t know why they " fixed" the trait system in the first place. It was a part of the game that was not broken and I can’t recall anyone, including myself, ever complaining about it.

I do like the fact that you can change on the fly without a trainer or silver, but I preferred getting a point every level starting at 11. It felt like you were building toward something with each level. Not so much anymore.

Suggestion: Go back to the old point system/acquisition, but keep the ability to change on the fly without trainers/coins.

Gregori.5807:

The Foul Bear Chieftain (required for a trait) is also bugged out. “Killing the Ogre leaders of Sapper’s Delve” requires us to talk to Scout Tahiri.

I have been trying to find this scout for 2 weeks. I have not been the only one trying this. A couple of them I remember from previous attempts. It is obviously something a lot of people are having problems with.

I have decided that I am going to finish one of the two alts I was planning. However, the second one was going to be a re rolled necro. I just wanted a necro in a different race, however, I will be sticking with the one that was grandfathered in.

In case anyone wants to see exactly how bad this is, my wife sat down and did all of the math. It’s posted on Google documents: http://tinyurl.com/q6vgf93 . The legend for the colors is on the right.

This does not include how difficult each unlock is, nor does it include bugged unlocks.

My wife has a much more in depth version typed out that, if anyone wants to see, PM me and I will relay it to you. Its a bit grim.

That’s an interesting spreadsheet. The wiki has something similar, but less fancy. I’d like to see it without the two yellow shades- they’re not different enough that I can easily tell them apart at a glance.

I’d like to point out that 100% Lornar’s Pass is listed as being under 30- yes, the zone starts at 25, but it finishes with level 40. Likewise, the low end of Gendarran Fields is 25, but the high end is 35.

Ranger Hussy.9523:

i like the whole bs about our character created before the patch will be grandfathered in, just checked my lvl 24 necro who i haven’t played in awhile, it’s all locked and have to buy the traits 1 at a time, chock this crap trait system up to belonging with the garbage mega server i guess and learn not to believe anet about things

It’s not bs, since all my lower level characters were grandfathered in. I’d send a bug report and make a service ticket if it hasn’t happened for you. I’ve not heard anyone else complain about this.

Vayne.8563:

Ranger Hussy.9523:

i like the whole bs about our character created before the patch will be grandfathered in, just checked my lvl 24 necro who i haven’t played in awhile, it’s all locked and have to buy the traits 1 at a time, chock this crap trait system up to belonging with the garbage mega server i guess and learn not to believe anet about things

It’s not bs, since all my lower level characters were grandfathered in. I’d send a bug report and make a service ticket if it hasn’t happened for you. I’ve not heard anyone else complain about this.

Actually, the issue is that your traits won’t be unlocked (even for viewing) until level 30. You don’t have to buy them, and you’ll be able to see that once you reach the appropriate level. (I think it’s stupid that we can’t even look at our traits in-game before level 30, personally.)

Guhracie.3419:

Vayne.8563:

Ranger Hussy.9523:

i like the whole bs about our character created before the patch will be grandfathered in, just checked my lvl 24 necro who i haven’t played in awhile, it’s all locked and have to buy the traits 1 at a time, chock this crap trait system up to belonging with the garbage mega server i guess and learn not to believe anet about things

It’s not bs, since all my lower level characters were grandfathered in. I’d send a bug report and make a service ticket if it hasn’t happened for you. I’ve not heard anyone else complain about this.

Actually, the issue is that your traits won’t be unlocked (even for viewing) until level 30. You don’t have to buy them, and you’ll be able to see that once you reach the appropriate level. (I think it’s stupid that we can’t even look at our traits in-game before level 30, personally.)

Yep, I agree. You should be able to see them before you can get them.

Hi,

at first I liked the new trait acquistion system, since it encourages players to discover the whole world if they want to get them – and if not, they still can buy them. But after yesterday, I think it’s so annoying, I don’t wonder anymore that people are getting frustrated.

To start at the beginning: Some guildmates wanted help to acquire their last traits, so np, we’ll help you, since they had to do some champs/priests what can be annoying with trashy gear and a lack of experience with a new class.

So we looked up what they had to do, went there to do the event chain, but… Hey it’s bugged. Ok, no problem, switch the layer, sh** happens. Bugged too. Next layer: the same. Ok this can happen, just let’s focus on another trait and do that later – same sh**, bugged event blocked the event chain. Those were 2 events that are known in the wiki (!) to bug easily. We did another 2, and luckily those events weren’t bugged – since they didn’t had an event chain, just kill champ 123.

Then it got really worse, since we had to do the temples – we tried about 4 hours, then we gave up. Why? To find an contested temple except Baltha is atm nearly impossible in the afternoon+, since the megaserver got introduced. We jumped through 7 (!) layers (ip check) in 4 hours and didn’t find one (except Baltha, what we finally did out of desperation), not to speak of the “kill spawned priest xyz to def temple zyx”! This morning finally at least Grenth was contested and we tried to get there, arrived late and “had to” be that unsocial, that we forced the def event to fail (What I really hate when others do it!), because the priest went down to fast so our guildmates couldn’t even hit him and so they had another chance to do it.

Don’t get me wrong – I don’t want to be those traits easymode and I like the idea how they should be acquired, that high level traits are tricky to get and that people that don’t want it that way still can buy them. But at least people should have actually have a real chance to get them that doesn’t include a) waiting for hours just to SEE the event or b) simply impossible by having to do buggy event chains.

Btw.: We went farming T6 for 30 min after being horribly annoyed and they bought the traits with the gold they got for them – yeah, not really what they expected to be a cool way to get their traits…

ty guys for the answer about that

I do only PvP and i cant afford all that gold for even just 1 profesion x.x . The trait system is bad or they should at least give you those traits via track rewards, or i am prety useles going to pve side (but pve person is not when going pvp). That money/gold rewards the pvp players got was hoax since they introduced much more money sinks and i do pvp daily and lacking money….

They’ve made some really bad choices in the stuff you need to do to get traits unlocked. I was lucky on the guy I made to test it. Pretty much everything I went for went smoothly, but not so for some of my guildies I tried to help.

Why they would choose events that bug easily I have no idea.

I’m glad I cba to level a new character – the current system, while definitely more integrated with the world than the previous system, looks incredibly painful and tedious to go through.

Got all the tricky ones now but devourer queen which is very buggy and the champ grub in eternal battlegrounds. I actually saw that the queen was up the other day (!!!) but it spawned very far from the pre events, not anywhere near a wp, in a hard to navigate area, and it was gone before I could figure out how to get to it. The way I got the other ones was to just park my character in the area and log in periodically to see if the event was active. Going to try with devourer queen after patch, for the grub no idea. Probably just need to figure out how to solo it, being in wvw makes it harder (much harder) to find people to help with it. They are all doing wvw stuff, not killing the grub. It’s also the only map on my server that generally has a queue. I haven’t even bothered to ask for help, cause I know I’d get told to just buy the trait.

wow still nothing from Anet … then again why would I be surprised.

Okay so this makes me question something. Are the new Traits actually worth trying to get? Because if not, all the cash and effort is going into buffing equipment.

Merlin.4058:

Okay so this makes me question something. Are the new Traits actually worth trying to get? Because if not, all the cash and effort is going into buffing equipment.

It depends on your class/preferred build. The thief trait that provides heals on crits was utterly necessary for me, and very easy to obtain.

Very disappointed at the lack of changes to the trait system. I won’t be buying gems again until this is fixed.

Got one of the GM traits last night, did final chapter of PS… First off, I love how it is supposed to be PERSONAL story yet you need to find 4 others to actually do it !!

( Love how all the way through the PS it tells you what you have to do, then BOOM, last part in Arah, no direction as to how to even start the last part, just a green swirly on the map at the Arah entryway then nothing, so you have to guess that its story mode )

Then you find that you need 4 others ( new players have fun pugging that part LOL )

( No direction once you get in as to even what you are doing, no green stars like the rest of the PS , nada )

I can understand why they did this change in traits. I mean i think they did so certain weren’t more powerful than others in PvP OR they wanted us to work more for those traits. But in my true opinion, They need to roll this change back to the old traits because this new system in traits reduces a lot of the open customization that this game was always meant to have.

i think they might not want to go back to the old trait system because of china and the similarities (i dont know for sure)
but that shouldnt be a thing china gw2 is completely different anyway..
at least give us some feedback anet please
i have A LOT of alts (currently playing my 4. guardian since the others are already 80 and were pre april granfather chras)
it does not help any build diversity at all
it just forces players to do stuff the dont want to do or otherwise its a huge goldsink partly filled by those who dont have that much money…

i do like the idea of just having limitted traits i can choose from and deciding which one would be best in this situation
and test out new traits once i unlock them…
the idea is nice… not how youve made it

why not making it like adapt tier trait charges for any of these things you nee dforan adept tier trait
so you would have a pool of traditional quests (stars could be added as well) that once you klick them show you what things you can do to get a adept tier trait unlock
and you can choose

you will unlock more traits just by playing the game so there is still character progression
you can still buy traits if you dont want map compketion or a certain event
(or just have the trait instantly)

or make it like once you have it unlocked its unlocked for your whole accound
so i dont need to kill karka queen with every character to get that XIII i dont even mean one karka queen unlocks XIII for all classes..

i would even do the karka queen 8 times
…
but since i have A LOT !! of characters and the “new traits (yaaay!)” need to be unlocked for each character….
cmon really?
make it account bound

or at least make the unlocks account bound for pvp
so once youve unlocked XIII in virtues for guardian
every guardian who goes into pvp got this unlocked

creating new characters for pvp costs so much if you want to use one of the new traits
and i assume you will handle new “new traits” like XVI the same way like XIII and thats just… i dont really lke it

one last thing
you always say: “…and we DO read the forums..”
so please type some sort of one liner like “were looking into this”
since a lot of peaople do dislike the trait system but could arrange with it somehow but what really f— kitten kittens KITTENs us is that you seemingly dont give a kitten about what we say/type..whatever..

we all write here because we want you to change it since we dont want to see the game ruined
because we like the game
some say they will go..so be it
they wouldnt say such things if they didnt ever liked the game) and im sure most of them will come back since they still like the game
(otherwise their typing wouldve made no sense)

so… please any feedback as simple as it might be would be kittening nice

Maybe Anet should make trait tomes that worked like skill tomes in Guild Wars 1.

In Guild Wars 1, if you had a skill unlocked on one character, you could use a tome to unlock it on another character, without going out and capturing it. Tomes were dropped in hard mode and could be bought for Zaishen Coins, roughly the equivalent of laurels.

It would give people a way to unlock the stuff on their first character and never do it again if they want to spring for a tome.

Vayne.8563:

Maybe Anet should make trait tomes that worked like skill tomes in Guild Wars 1.

In Guild Wars 1, if you had a skill unlocked on one character, you could use a tome to unlock it on another character, without going out and capturing it. Tomes were dropped in hard mode and could be bought for Zaishen Coins, roughly the equivalent of laurels.

It would give people a way to unlock the stuff on their first character and never do it again if they want to spring for a tome.

This is a fantastic idea, and would go a long way toward making the system better. I still think the requirements need a massive overhaul, though.

Guhracie.3419:

Vayne.8563:

Maybe Anet should make trait tomes that worked like skill tomes in Guild Wars 1.

In Guild Wars 1, if you had a skill unlocked on one character, you could use a tome to unlock it on another character, without going out and capturing it. Tomes were dropped in hard mode and could be bought for Zaishen Coins, roughly the equivalent of laurels.

It would give people a way to unlock the stuff on their first character and never do it again if they want to spring for a tome.

This is a fantastic idea, and would go a long way toward making the system better. I still think the requirements need a massive overhaul, though.

I agree with you. I think the requirements were somewhat haphazard. Don’t tell anyone I said something bad about the game though, because I’m supposed to be a white knight.

This Idea just sucks, It’s putting me off leveling any new characters. I just wanted to put this out there. I doubt this will pull anyway but this trait thing really just sucks.

Make skill points account bound. Old players can unlock traits for some gold easily on alts. New players get to experience the cool leveling and traveling to get traits.

I think it would be nice of them to explain to us their reasoning for this change in traits. It would be nice for them to do that so we know what their issue with the old system was.

Just chiming in to say the new trait system is terrible. Who signed off on this? Seriously. This thread has beyond enough feedback, suggestions and criticisms to do something about it.

Beyond the acquisition issues – I just want to call out the leveling progression: completely ridiculous. Leveling means nothing except for the seemingly random times you manage to get a trait point (or points at later levels). Even the fact that you can’t view the trait page until 30 is terrible. Pushing the trait tiers back to 30, 60, 80(!) is terrible. The focus has gone completely to where the game really doesn’t begin until 80 (even then you may have very few traits). This is an incredibly punishing and unfulfilling system for new players. I can honestly say that it has deterred RL friends of mine from playing or purchasing the game.

Dev’s be like “it doesn’t have enough replies yet to address this as an issue…”

I’m so happy about the new Trait system. Now I can quit the game completely without regrets.

Trait Answers

I wouldn’t confuse silence with apathy on the part of the developers. They did start this thread for a reason, after all, but it was to hear what we think, not tell us what they think.

It’s been a few months, and while there’s a lot of feedback here, I’m sure the devs are looking at how players are actually dealing with the new trait regime in game. How many do the required unlock deeds? Which deeds do they complete, and which do they never complete? How many buy the traits instead? How active are players at the sub-80-level now versus before the change? And so on.

As frustrating as it may be, it’s unlikely we’ll see major changes to the system soon, not because the devs don’t care, but because it takes time to decide how best to move forward. Gathering and analyzing all the information they need to do that takes time, and even more time to make the necessary design decisions based on what they conclude.

The current system offers things players have been requesting since beta, and took a fair amount of engineering time to implement, so I doubt ArenaNet will want to scrap it entirely. Rather, we can expect them to “iterate”, as they are wont to do, and refine the system so it better suits players needs.

Locked Away

To that end, I expect they will adjust many of the unlock requirements to make them more appropriate for the levels at which they become relevant (i.e., no requirements to run level 80 content at level 60) and reduce the preponderance of group-only content needed to advance characters.

The group-only requirement is one I’m pretty sure the data shows issues with. I know Colin has indicated a desire to push players out of their comfort zones to get them to try other aspects of the game, but some things just won’t happen.

To wit, I enjoy the personal story aspect of the game, but as long as group-only Arah sits at the end, none of my 32 characters will ever complete it. Not a single one of them. Almost two years and counting, 27 level 80s, it ain’t happening, and that’s not going to change.

It’s not because I don’t like group content. Indeed, when I’m in the mood for it, I absolutely love it, and when I’m in the mood for WvW, good luck trying to lure me away from the Mists. But when I’m not, absolutely nothing anyone does is going to make me like it, because what I like to do and how I choose to spend my free time is never up for a vote or debate. Period.

That’s obviously a non-negotiable for me, but I do otherwise enjoy the game and have high hopes for the future. Thus I counsel patience, though I can understand why that can tend to be in short supply.

The scarcity of patience, however, only confirms its value.

sighs think they may ever give feedback ?

Majic.4801:

Trait Answers

I wouldn’t confuse silence with apathy on the part of the developers. They did start this thread for a reason, after all, but it was to hear what we think, not tell us what they think.

It’s been a few months, and while there’s a lot of feedback here, I’m sure the devs are looking at how players are actually dealing with the new trait regime in game. How many do the required unlock deeds? Which deeds do they complete, and which do they never complete? How many buy the traits instead? How active are players at the sub-80-level now versus before the change? And so on.

As frustrating as it may be, it’s unlikely we’ll see major changes to the system soon, not because the devs don’t care, but because it takes time to decide how best to move forward. Gathering and analyzing all the information they need to do that takes time, and even more time to make the necessary design decisions based on what they conclude.

The current system offers things players have been requesting since beta, and took a fair amount of engineering time to implement, so I doubt ArenaNet will want to scrap it entirely. Rather, we can expect them to “iterate”, as they are wont to do, and refine the system so it better suits players needs.

Locked Away

To that end, I expect they will adjust many of the unlock requirements to make them more appropriate for the levels at which they become relevant (i.e., no requirements to run level 80 content at level 60) and reduce the preponderance of group-only content needed to advance characters.

The group-only requirement is one I’m pretty sure the data shows issues with. I know Colin has indicated a desire to push players out of their comfort zones to get them to try other aspects of the game, but some things just won’t happen.

To wit, I enjoy the personal story aspect of the game, but as long as group-only Arah sits at the end, none of my 32 characters will ever complete it. Not a single one of them. Almost two years and counting, 27 level 80s, it ain’t happening, and that’s not going to change.

It’s not because I don’t like group content. Indeed, when I’m in the mood for it, I absolutely love it, and when I’m in the mood for WvW, good luck trying to lure me away from the Mists. But when I’m not, absolutely nothing anyone does is going to make me like it, because what I like to do and how I choose to spend my free time is never up for a vote or debate. Period.

That’s obviously a non-negotiable for me, but I do otherwise enjoy the game and have high hopes for the future. Thus I counsel patience, though I can understand why that can tend to be in short supply.

The scarcity of patience, however, only confirms its value.

If what you said was true they could at least come out and say that they see there is a problem and they are trying to come up with a fix. What they are doing though is ignoring it in the hopes it will go away. They have a proven history that says they will not do anything unless it relates to gem store, LS, or fudging the metrics. Fudging the metrics because they haven’t tried to fix anything, just make the metrics show what they want on the bar graphs

You say that its only been a couple of months and to have patience. How long should people wait for something before it is okay to no longer have patience, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years? These are feed back threads that anet created. Why is asking for a reply to such threads such a hard thing to do.

All my alts were created long before this so I had no idea.

I play offpeak, but if anyone needs help getting traits, feel free to friend me and send me a message if you’re online and need help. I have map completion so I can pop over wherever.

I decided to find out exactly how hard or easy it is to get Scrolls of Knowledge via champ bags.

~I farmed 147 orange champ bags: I got 27 scrolls.
~My wife farmed 52 orange champ bags: 12 scrolls.
Total: 199 champ bags: 39 scrolls.

Here is my wife’s updated Google document (w/ corrections… thanks to those that helped) that shows the recommended character level for each activity to unlock traits vs the level where the trait is available:
http://tinyurl.com/q6vgf93 .

This does not include how difficult each unlock is, nor does it include bugged unlocks, of which there are a few.

Most of the content we farmed them in was: EotM, Dry Top, and the World Boss chain.

Imagine a new player on their first character. Remember how many events a low level character can do that will generate champ bags, especially if they can’t run EotM. They may be upleveled there, but that does not change their gear score and not all people, including 80s, like going into PvP.

I am leaving this here in case a dev does happen by and sees it.

Edit July 19th: my wife redid her spreadsheet and found that she was inaccurate. Hence, I am editing my post to reflect her new numbers. Healing skills are included now. Here is her post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/32#post4219622

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is a breakdown of the number of skill points you can earn in game up to and including level 80 if you do every skill challenge in the game. In comparison, how many skill points you need to have to purchase all traits and every utility except racial (they vary between class and race) and Mistfire wolf.

~Total skill points needed to unlock all utilities that are NOT racial: 143

~Total skill points needed to purchase all traits:
Adept: 60
Master: 100
Grandmaster: 100
Grandmaster final: 100
Total: 360

~Skill points available from skill challenges:
Below level 30: 72
Between 30 and 60: 48
Between 60 and 80: 39
At level 80: 20
in WvW: 13
Total from skill challenges: 192

~Skill points available from the leveling process (to 80): 75. Add skill challenges to the 75: 267.

~Amount of skill points needed above and beyond number you earn (not counting racial utilities or Mistfire wolf):
236.

Engineers need 3 less for the skill points for their utilities.

(my wife did the work, I formatted it)

Cheers to you both for compiling that information!

“As part of this approach to making traits more approachable, we’ve pushed back the level at which the different trait tiers unlock for new characters in order to better pace the early game experience and to add more meaningful character progression from levels 30 to 80”

I must be missing something here? Wasn’t “traits more approachable” and “meaningful character progression” the old trait system? Serious, does anyone really know why this was changed for the worse???

The thing that bothers me the most about the new trait system is that the tasks you have to do to unlock traits are the same for each profession. In GW1, each profession had to hunt different bosses, so the system improved replayability. In GW2, you’ve got to do the same – sometimes very tedious – tasks, so replayability is worsened instead.

I’d be potentially ok with unlocking these things once – as I’ll do, because I created one character post-changes – but unlocking them multiple times would be an enormous chore.

Gregori.5807:

Here is a breakdown of the number of skill points you can earn in game up to level 80 if you do every skill challenge in the game. In comparison, how many skill points you need to have to purchase all traits and every utility except heals and racial.

~Total skill points needed to unlock all utilities that are NOT. racial or healing: 134

~Total skill points needed to purchase all traits:
Adept: 60
Master: 100
Grandmaster: 100
Grandmaster final: 100
Total: 360

~Skill points available from skill challenges:
Below level 30: 79
Between 30 and 60: 43
Between 60 and 80: 39
in WvW: 13
Total: 174

~Skill points available from the leveling process (to 80): 75. Add skill challenges to the 75: 249.

~Amount of skill points needed above and beyond number you earn:
111.
(my wife did the work, I formatted it)

did you guys also count elites?

phys.7689:

Gregori.5807:

Here is a breakdown of the number of skill points you can earn in game up to level 80 if you do every skill challenge in the game. In comparison, how many skill points you need to have to purchase all traits and every utility except heals and racial.

[Cut for brevity. See original post here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/31#post4214959]

~Amount of skill points needed above and beyond number you earn (not counting racial and heal utilities or Mistfire wolf):
111.

did you guys also count elites?

Yes for the elite traits, no for racial elite utilities. Mistfire wolf is not included.

I just edited the first paragraph and last line to include what I had left out.

Thinking on this, they really should have gone all out when it came to the trait rework, not a mess like this. The traits SHOULD have unlocked as you play through the game normally depending on what you do and how you play your class (meaning most class traits require specific actions), starting when you unlocked traits for the first time (level 30 in this case). It would turn from the mess it is now into a case of pure brilliance as how you played would equal what you got. Below is an example using just the traits in the Thief Shadow Arts traitline and the Engineer Tools traitline to illustrate how I would make it work.

Shadow Arts
I Master of Deception: Use Deception type skills 30 times.
II Slowed Pulse: Suffer the Bleeding condition 100 times.
III Shadow Protector: Give 100 allies stealth.
IV Shadow’s Embrace: Use Hide in Shadows 20 times.
V Infusion of Shadow: Use stealth 100 times.
VI Cloaked in Shadow: Use Blinding Powder 30 times while in combat.
VII Power Shots: Kill 100 enemies with a Shortbow or Harpoon Gun.
VIII Hidden Thief: Steal while in Stealth 100 times.
IX Leeching Venoms: Use 200 charges of Skelk Venom.
X Patience: Spend a total of 3000 seconds in stealth (meaning over all stealth uses)
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Use Shadow Refuge 200 times.
XII Venomous Aura: Use Venom skills 1000 times.
XIII Resilience of Shadows: Get hit in stealth 1000 times.

Tools
I Always Prepared: Use Med Kit ability Drop Bandages 50 times.
II Static Discharge: Use offensive tool belt skills 30 times.
III Speedy Gadgets: Use gadget skills 50 times.
IV Kit Refinement: Equip an offensive kit 30 times.
V Deployable Turrets: Use 50 turrets (meaning actually throw them out, not their ability after they’re out)
VI Speedy Kits: Equip a kit 100 times.
VII Packaged Stimulants: Use the Med Kit skills 1000 times.
VIII Power Wrench: Use Tool Kit skills 1000 times.
IX Scope: Get 200 criticals with the Pistol and Rifle.
X Leg Mods: Spend 10000 seconds total under chill, cripple, or immobilized statuses (not at the same time, of course)
XI Armor Mods: Get hit over a million times.
XII Adrenal Implant: Dodge 1000 times.
XIII Gadgeteer: Use Gadget skills 500 times.

Things like that. It would be basic for the Adepts, Masters would get a little more specific and tedious, and Grandmaster…hoo boy, that can require some serious work.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Thinking on this, they really should have gone all out when it came to the trait rework, not a mess like this. The traits SHOULD have unlocked as you play through the game normally depending on what you do and how you play your class (meaning most class traits require specific actions), starting when you unlocked traits for the first time (level 30 in this case). It would turn from the mess it is now into a case of pure brilliance as how you played would equal what you got. Below is an example using just the traits in the Thief Shadow Arts traitline and the Engineer Tools traitline to illustrate how I would make it work.

Shadow Arts
I Master of Deception: Use Deception type skills 30 times.
II Slowed Pulse: Suffer the Bleeding condition 100 times.
III Shadow Protector: Give 100 allies stealth.
IV Shadow’s Embrace: Use Hide in Shadows 20 times.
V Infusion of Shadow: Use stealth 100 times.
VI Cloaked in Shadow: Use Blinding Powder 30 times while in combat.
VII Power Shots: Kill 100 enemies with a Shortbow or Harpoon Gun.
VIII Hidden Thief: Steal while in Stealth 100 times.
IX Leeching Venoms: Use 200 charges of Skelk Venom.
X Patience: Spend a total of 3000 seconds in stealth (meaning over all stealth uses)
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Use Shadow Refuge 200 times.
XII Venomous Aura: Use Venom skills 1000 times.
XIII Resilience of Shadows: Get hit in stealth 1000 times.
snip

You just made my friggin’ day with that idea. The numbers need a bit of tweaking, but that’s one kitten of a first draft.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Thinking on this, they really should have gone all out when it came to the trait rework, not a mess like this. The traits SHOULD have unlocked as you play through the game normally depending on what you do and how you play your class (meaning most class traits require specific actions), starting when you unlocked traits for the first time (level 30 in this case). It would turn from the mess it is now into a case of pure brilliance as how you played would equal what you got. Below is an example using just the traits in the Thief Shadow Arts traitline and the Engineer Tools traitline to illustrate how I would make it work.

Shadow Arts
I Master of Deception: Use Deception type skills 30 times.
II Slowed Pulse: Suffer the Bleeding condition 100 times.
III Shadow Protector: Give 100 allies stealth.
IV Shadow’s Embrace: Use Hide in Shadows 20 times.
V Infusion of Shadow: Use stealth 100 times.
VI Cloaked in Shadow: Use Blinding Powder 30 times while in combat.
VII Power Shots: Kill 100 enemies with a Shortbow or Harpoon Gun.
VIII Hidden Thief: Steal while in Stealth 100 times.
IX Leeching Venoms: Use 200 charges of Skelk Venom.
X Patience: Spend a total of 3000 seconds in stealth (meaning over all stealth uses)
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Use Shadow Refuge 200 times.
XII Venomous Aura: Use Venom skills 1000 times.
XIII Resilience of Shadows: Get hit in stealth 1000 times.

Tools
I Always Prepared: Use Med Kit ability Drop Bandages 50 times.
II Static Discharge: Use offensive tool belt skills 30 times.
III Speedy Gadgets: Use gadget skills 50 times.
IV Kit Refinement: Equip an offensive kit 30 times.
V Deployable Turrets: Use 50 turrets (meaning actually throw them out, not their ability after they’re out)
VI Speedy Kits: Equip a kit 100 times.
VII Packaged Stimulants: Use the Med Kit skills 1000 times.
VIII Power Wrench: Use Tool Kit skills 1000 times.
IX Scope: Get 200 criticals with the Pistol and Rifle.
X Leg Mods: Spend 10000 seconds total under chill, cripple, or immobilized statuses (not at the same time, of course)
XI Armor Mods: Get hit over a million times.
XII Adrenal Implant: Dodge 1000 times.
XIII Gadgeteer: Use Gadget skills 500 times.

Things like that. It would be basic for the Adepts, Masters would get a little more specific and tedious, and Grandmaster…hoo boy, that can require some serious work.

This would encourage players to experiment more with their profession’s abilities, rather than sticking with one setup. I really like this concept overall.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Thinking on this, they really should have gone all out when it came to the trait rework, not a mess like this. The traits SHOULD have unlocked as you play through the game normally depending on what you do and how you play your class (meaning most class traits require specific actions), starting when you unlocked traits for the first time (level 30 in this case). It would turn from the mess it is now into a case of pure brilliance as how you played would equal what you got. Below is an example using just the traits in the Thief Shadow Arts traitline and the Engineer Tools traitline to illustrate how I would make it work.

Shadow Arts
I Master of Deception: Use Deception type skills 30 times.
II Slowed Pulse: Suffer the Bleeding condition 100 times.
III Shadow Protector: Give 100 allies stealth.
IV Shadow’s Embrace: Use Hide in Shadows 20 times.
V Infusion of Shadow: Use stealth 100 times.
VI Cloaked in Shadow: Use Blinding Powder 30 times while in combat.
VII Power Shots: Kill 100 enemies with a Shortbow or Harpoon Gun.
VIII Hidden Thief: Steal while in Stealth 100 times.
IX Leeching Venoms: Use 200 charges of Skelk Venom.
X Patience: Spend a total of 3000 seconds in stealth (meaning over all stealth uses)
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Use Shadow Refuge 200 times.
XII Venomous Aura: Use Venom skills 1000 times.
XIII Resilience of Shadows: Get hit in stealth 1000 times.

Tools
I Always Prepared: Use Med Kit ability Drop Bandages 50 times.
II Static Discharge: Use offensive tool belt skills 30 times.
III Speedy Gadgets: Use gadget skills 50 times.
IV Kit Refinement: Equip an offensive kit 30 times.
V Deployable Turrets: Use 50 turrets (meaning actually throw them out, not their ability after they’re out)
VI Speedy Kits: Equip a kit 100 times.
VII Packaged Stimulants: Use the Med Kit skills 1000 times.
VIII Power Wrench: Use Tool Kit skills 1000 times.
IX Scope: Get 200 criticals with the Pistol and Rifle.
X Leg Mods: Spend 10000 seconds total under chill, cripple, or immobilized statuses (not at the same time, of course)
XI Armor Mods: Get hit over a million times.
XII Adrenal Implant: Dodge 1000 times.
XIII Gadgeteer: Use Gadget skills 500 times.

Things like that. It would be basic for the Adepts, Masters would get a little more specific and tedious, and Grandmaster…hoo boy, that can require some serious work.

I think this is good for the basic traits, but i think specific tasks etc can be good for higher teir stuff.
as you say, for the masters and GMs it would be kind of tedius and grindy.
As charachters reach i would shift it to more specific goal oriented events, it could still be related to the class, but it would be like something your try to do, not grind out.

i think that overall, the grindy method of unlocking should be gold/skill point method, the other method should be more entertaining and goal oriented.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Thinking on this, they really should have gone all out when it came to the trait rework, not a mess like this. The traits SHOULD have unlocked as you play through the game normally depending on what you do and how you play your class (meaning most class traits require specific actions), starting when you unlocked traits for the first time (level 30 in this case). It would turn from the mess it is now into a case of pure brilliance as how you played would equal what you got. Below is an example using just the traits in the Thief Shadow Arts traitline and the Engineer Tools traitline to illustrate how I would make it work.

Shadow Arts
I Master of Deception: Use Deception type skills 30 times.
II Slowed Pulse: Suffer the Bleeding condition 100 times.
III Shadow Protector: Give 100 allies stealth.
IV Shadow’s Embrace: Use Hide in Shadows 20 times.
V Infusion of Shadow: Use stealth 100 times.
VI Cloaked in Shadow: Use Blinding Powder 30 times while in combat.
VII Power Shots: Kill 100 enemies with a Shortbow or Harpoon Gun.
VIII Hidden Thief: Steal while in Stealth 100 times.
IX Leeching Venoms: Use 200 charges of Skelk Venom.
X Patience: Spend a total of 3000 seconds in stealth (meaning over all stealth uses)
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Use Shadow Refuge 200 times.
XII Venomous Aura: Use Venom skills 1000 times.
XIII Resilience of Shadows: Get hit in stealth 1000 times.

Tools
I Always Prepared: Use Med Kit ability Drop Bandages 50 times.
II Static Discharge: Use offensive tool belt skills 30 times.
III Speedy Gadgets: Use gadget skills 50 times.
IV Kit Refinement: Equip an offensive kit 30 times.
V Deployable Turrets: Use 50 turrets (meaning actually throw them out, not their ability after they’re out)
VI Speedy Kits: Equip a kit 100 times.
VII Packaged Stimulants: Use the Med Kit skills 1000 times.
VIII Power Wrench: Use Tool Kit skills 1000 times.
IX Scope: Get 200 criticals with the Pistol and Rifle.
X Leg Mods: Spend 10000 seconds total under chill, cripple, or immobilized statuses (not at the same time, of course)
XI Armor Mods: Get hit over a million times.
XII Adrenal Implant: Dodge 1000 times.
XIII Gadgeteer: Use Gadget skills 500 times.

Things like that. It would be basic for the Adepts, Masters would get a little more specific and tedious, and Grandmaster…hoo boy, that can require some serious work.

Brilliant idea! Even though it might get a bit grindy, it sounds like a lot of fun to collect all traits without being bound to a certain event, zone or enemy. Thumbs up!

Gregori.5807:

Here is a breakdown of the number of skill points you can earn in game up to level 80 if you do every skill challenge in the game. In comparison, how many skill points you need to have to purchase all traits and every utility except heals and racial (they vary between class and race). Mistfire wolf elite utility not included.

~Total skill points needed to unlock all utilities that are NOT. racial or healing: 134

~Total skill points needed to purchase all traits:
Adept: 60
Master: 100
Grandmaster: 100
Grandmaster final: 100
Total: 360

~Skill points available from skill challenges:
Below level 30: 79
Between 30 and 60: 43
Between 60 and 80: 39
in WvW: 13
Total: 174

~Skill points available from the leveling process (to 80): 75. Add skill challenges to the 75: 249.

~Amount of skill points needed above and beyond number you earn (not counting racial and heal utilities or Mistfire wolf):
111.
(my wife did the work, I formatted it)

This is good work. Thanks to both of you for doing it.

So someone would need 111 points, assuming they wanted every single trait (and every single skill). And they would need 111 skill points. The thing is a lot of the traits are relatively easy to unlock. Just playing through my new character, without trying I unlocked probably half a dozen. I mean how hard it it to get the chest in kessex? Not very. And I’ve never seen it bugged either.

There’s no question that the trait system needs work. None at all.

What Anet is trying to do here is to get people to go out and do things in the world. And if you want a trait and don’t want to pay, you should be willing to do content. I think Anet is thinking it will encourage people to try different areas of the game they might not have tried. In some ways I think that works but for many people I think that backfires.

Take the dungeon achievement. If you’re not a dungeon runner and you need that one trait, and you try to run a dungeon never having run one before, it’s very likely you’re going to have a bad experience. Dungeons aren’t something you just jump into unprepared, even if they’re easy for experienced players.

Take the WvW stuff. If you’re on a server that’s not doing well, that can be painful. Is that going to encourage people to try WvW? I don’t think so. What it might do is discourage people from every playing WvW again. Same with the dungeons.

This is why I advocate more than one way to unlock each trait. I mean in Guild Wars 1, there were often multiple creatures that had elite skills. You did have some choice.

Agreed with above.
Go out to other maps to actually play the game, instead run circles in EoTM trying to avoid the enemy. There are more than one ways to do most of the things in the game, but somehow people choose to push only for the easiest way that needs the lowest effort.
Same for traits. You can just think for yourself in what way you want to develop your character and learn to play it while doing so, instead of unlocking everything and in the end not knowing what to choose and how to play certain builds and stuff.