Guild Wars 2

scerevisiae.1972:

the GW1 system of rewarding a significant portion of skills (or in this game, traits) via quest lines worked really well there, why is the GW2 so retrograde?

Trait unlocks in Personal Story? I could roll with that. It might actually get me back into actually doing them again. Only ever bothered doing the story in its entirety once. The rewards in there already leave much to be desired, and are in need of upgrade.

Between my previous post and yours, now that I’m really looking back at GW1 again in earnest, what about bringing back henchmen and/or heroes again? I can’t count the number of times I’ve had to find something else to do because nobody in guild wanted to dungeon with me. The only foreseeable problem in my opinion would be the fact that the AI for them would have to be absolutely magnificent, and would require a ton of multitasking… With ranger pets being a possible example, my outlook on this is grim, lol.

Logan Thackeray in CoF: “Incoming fireball!” ( Then proceeds to take it to the face like a boss)

Still, they couldn’t possibly be worse than most pug groups!

Well, I’m a tad bored right now, so time for Arms! (The second Warrior trait line)

I’ll start with Adept, then Master and Grandmaster like before. Keep in mind that these requirements are also lined up almost exactly for the other profession trait lines (a few are moved around in certain lines for other professions, but the tiers seem to stay the same).

Anyway…

Furious Reaction (Gain fury and vigor upon taking 10% or more damage in one hit)

- Defeat Captain Jayne (a former champion, now elite pirate in Gendarran Fields).
I like this one. It’s doable a ways before the trait becomes available so you can go for it early or wait until you finished the Lv25-35 map.

Also, it’s nice and straightforward: find this guy and kill him. The only downside is waiting for him to respawn if he’s killed earlier, but other than that, nice.

Rending Strikes (Critical hits have a chance to inflict vulnerability)

- Kill Sharky the Destroyer in Harathi Hinterlands. While I haven’t fought this guy, he’s not hard to find, and is Lv39, not too far off from adept unlocks like others tend to be.

So, this one seems good. Again, just go kill this thing.

Crack Shot (Rifle/Harpoon Gun shots pierce, their skills’ cooldown is reduced)

- 100% map completion for Lornar’s Pass. Well…at least it’s level appropriateish. I still feel map completion is not good for putting trait unlocks behind though.

Deep Cuts (Bleeds you apply last longer)

- Defeat Ulgoth the Modniir (and his minions). That’s the world boss of Harathi Hinterlands, (Lv43) for a Lv36 trait. Not soloable, not level appropriate. Not good.

Furious Speed (Gain swiftness on critical hits)

- Clear Twilight Arbor’s story mode. Like map completion, I feel dungeons shouldn’t be involved with trait unlocks.

Deep Strike (Gain precision for each unused signet equipped)

- Find the splendid chest in Earth’s Gap in Kessex Hills. Nice and simple. If only most of them were like that…

Master Arms Traits!

Forceful Greatsword (Critical hits with greatswords/spears grant might, and their skill cooldowns are reduced)

- Complete the Personal Story mission “Forging the Pact” (Lv62)

Well, it’s level appropriate at least..somewhat. Yeah, I don’t care for the Personal Story being used for trait unlocks. It was entertaining the first 2 or 3 times around, but I’m not up for it again for a trait unlock. Buying that one if I want it.

Opportunist (Gain fury upon immobilizing a target)

- Defeat the fire shaman and his minions….specifically, Champion Drakin Cinderspire in Iron Marches. While it’s exactly level appropriate (Lv60), this champion in question is a four-stage boss which can kill you in a few hits, (at least from the last time I tried fighting him) and is frustratingly long, even by champion standards. No thanks.

Blademaster (Higher critical hit chance with a sword)

- Find the grand chest in the Windy Cave (Lornar’s Pass). Amazingly, this one’s doable way before the unlock level, and is rather straightforward. Even with the veteran mobs around, this one’s doable solo with some effort.

Unsuspecting Foe (Increased critical chance against stunned foes)

- Befriend the hylek camp in the Eternal Battlegrounds. I think I’ve already made it clear why it hate WvW trait unlocks.

scerevisiae.1972:

the GW1 system of rewarding a significant portion of skills (or in this game, traits) via quest lines worked really well there, why is the GW2 so retrograde?

Because the game wasn’t built with it in mind. Exploring and progressing through the game world in any manner you chose was it’s biggest draw, and the new means of trait acquisition betrays this concept.

It all makes way more sense as a means of managing player activity or as a way to give more of a reason for such a high level cap, but an “improved” means of progression this is not.

I’m more curious about how the reception would be if it was like this in the beginning, but then got changed to where you could just earn the traits on your own, not following any specific tasks – just like it used to be in reality.

Grandmaster Arms Traits, yay! They’re only usable at Lv80, so level appropriateness is no longer an issue. Unfortunately, if you hate Orr, you’re out of luck, as all the unlocks are there! (Except one in Southsun Cove…yay. :/)

Last Chance (Gain quickness when hitting a foe below 50% health)

- Find the grand chest near Scholar Fryxx. I actually haven’t tried to find this one, so I’m not sure how bad it is (though, it’s in the Straits of Devastation, so there’s bound to be some catch to it).

Furious (Critical hits give bonus adrenaline)

- Complete Crucible of Eternity’s story mode. I run story mode to unlock explorable mode, not for a trait unlock, but whatever… :/

Dual Wield Agility (Increased attack speed when wielding an off-hand sword/axe/mace)

- Defeat the Risen Priest of Grenth. A.k.a. clear the Grenth temple meta-event! More unsoloable bosses/objectives…At least, thanks to the megaserver, getting the temple goes smoothly most of the time when it’s not already done…I think you can also get the trait from the defense event, but I’m not sure. Sigh…

Guess how many temples are used as trait unlocks?

ANet basically wanted to use the trait system to encourage people to do content in other parts of the game that they may not have done before. If they prefer not to, they have the option of just buying it outright. Unless you’re a completionist, you can get away with just buying the few traits you will actually use too. (Personally speaking, I’ve only used a handful of the same traits since launch. I don’t even touch most of them.)

Zaxares.5419:

ANet basically wanted to use the trait system to encourage people to do content in other parts of the game that they may not have done before.

While great, did it have to be through traits? Wouldn’t simply pointing to it be easy enough? They could do it like they did in GW1 with the Zaishen quests. It also makes the content worthwhile not just for new characters but maxed as well; an 80 with all the traits is less likely to discover content than if he needed it for his build.

Well, that’s basically what the Dailies are doing already. The AP’s encourage players to do content in certain areas.

However, I do agree that perhaps a more elegant solution could be found. (The main point I agree with Nilkemia on is that the traits are often unlocked at areas or levels higher than the point when you can start using those traits.) Like, if doing the types of content that unlock traits (JP’s, map completion, mini-dungeons, and meta-events) each give Trait Unlock point. You can then spend these points to unlock traits, with higher level traits requiring more points to unlock.

That way, players could unlock traits just by doing the activities in-game that they enjoy, and if they just want to bypass all of that, they can just use skill points+gold.

Zaxares.5419:

ANet basically wanted to use the trait system to encourage people to do content in other parts of the game that they may not have done before. If they prefer not to, they have the option of just buying it outright. Unless you’re a completionist, you can get away with just buying the few traits you will actually use too. (Personally speaking, I’ve only used a handful of the same traits since launch. I don’t even touch most of them.)

The problem being I made my elementalist specifically for WvW, and intended for her to stay there. I had/have little intention of doing map completion on every character, as I’ve already completed it on two chars already.

Not even gonna touch upon the approximately 43g and 360 skill points it costs to simply buy them. Niether of which a brand new freshly geared level 80 character would likely have available. For each character…

From my perspective, my elementalist is now useless to me for the purpose in which I built her. She’s traitless pixelated garbage, and I regret having spent the time to build her. And yet, as it stands right now she’s the only thing keeping me in the game at all. As she’s as formerly stated the final profession I had to get to 80. As I would never do this “trait-trek” again once completed. Much in the same way I’ll never build an Ascended item again. It was too boring, too long, too tedious, and plain asinine. I crafted just enough of them to fully outfit my main character with agony resistance for Fractals, and never have to do it again. I can’t even imagine having to do these things for more than one character as a brand new player to the game. The very fact that this has put a player that has been here since the beta on the fence for four days to ponder whether or not the game is even worth hanging around in any longer alone to me speaks volumes.

Defense Adept traits now.

Cull the Weak (Increased damage to weakened foes)

- Find and defeat the Giant Blood Ooze (a champion in Bloodtide Coast that I couldn’t reach, even though I’ve seen the event for it). I can’t say how tough it is, since I couldn’t even get to it up to this point. Judgement pending.

Missile Deflection (Reflect projectiles while blocking)

- 100% completion for the Fields of Ruin. Well, close to level appropriate. Still kinda tedious for just a trait.

Vigorous Return (Health/Endurance increased when you rally)

- Defeat Victurus the Shattered and his minions. A Lv58 champion in Iron Marches, for a Lv36 trait. Sigh. (Though, he’s not tough, from what I recall..)

Sure Footed (Increases stance durations)

- Capture Stonegaze Spire in Edge of the Mists. Sigh. Why not just make a WvW option for acquiring each of the traits as well? I mean, It’d make better sense than just throwing 5 or 6 requirements into WvW for no good reason, while the majority of them are PvE based anyway.

Now that I’ve thought about it, this trait unlock system is incredibly unfair to those that prefer WvW over the rest of the game. I don’t even like that mode, and I still see that they’re getting it worse than PvE’ers are. They’ve gotta buy most of the traits they want anyway. Giving them their own options for acquiring these traits would at least even things out for them.

Dogged March (Incoming cripple, chill, and immobilize durations are reduced, and you gain regeneration when affected by these conditions)

- Complete the story mission “The Battle of Claw Island”. A Lv50 quest for a Lv36 trait. Another “I’ll just buy it if I want it” trait.

Shield Master (Gain toughness while wielding a shield, and shield skill cooldowns are reduced)

- Defeat Fleshgrazer, an annoyingly gimmicky veteran giant skelk inside an annoyingly gimmicky mini-dungeon in Dredgehaunt Cliffs. I fought him once, and even with others helping, it was annoying with all the mobs around him and his “I’m invulnerable in the dark” ability. Once again, just buying the trait if I want it.

Well, all of those left much to be desired. Maybe next post will be better…

Nilkemia.8507:

Now that I’ve thought about it, this trait unlock system is incredibly unfair to those that prefer WvW over the rest of the game. I don’t even like that mode, and I still see that they’re getting it worse than PvE’ers are. They’ve gotta buy most of the traits they want anyway. Giving them their own options for acquiring these traits would at least even things out.

You’re darn right it is! Keep your kitten dirty PvE to yourselves! KThnxBai!

Smith.1826:

While great, did it have to be through traits? Wouldn’t simply pointing to it be easy enough? They could do it like they did in GW1 with the Zaishen quests. It also makes the content worthwhile not just for new characters but maxed as well; an 80 with all the traits is less likely to discover content than if he needed it for his build.

You my friend are a genius! After reading your post, my revised suggestion to this sub-par, show stopping trait system would be…..
1) Revert to old system
2) Keep OPTIONS to go hunt if this is how you want to acquire them.
For exploration…
Zaishen combat, bounties, and missions.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zaishen_Challenge_Quest

Make it so #1

p.s. sounds like alot (including myself) are waiting to see what happens next update. Do the right thing ANET!

scerevisiae.1972:

the GW1 system of rewarding a significant portion of skills (or in this game, traits) via quest lines worked really well there, why is the GW2 so retrograde?

actually it is incorrect to say a signifigant portion of skills were rewarded through quests, it was just the starter ones, some special faction ones, and elites. the rest you went to an npc in some area and unlocked, or you could capture them, but turns out that was better for elites, also note, capturing them wasnt always the cheapest option.

See essentially in gw1, only special skills, required unlocks, and that is the flaw with their implementation, they put it on every trait, haphazardly. hunting elites was essentially a high level thing you did for skills that were more powerful and worth it.
Doing an hour long map completion for fall damage reduction is stupid.

You dont really have enough tools, especially on some classes, to generate interesting gameplay without traits. For some styles of play you may need cool down reductions, or on dodge abilities, etc to truely play that style properly, shifting that synergy and smoothness 20 levels higher, and making some of them require you do things, that are very tailored to a certain playstyle is mistake.

guardian mechanic is boring trash without traits, steal on thief is pretty useless without traits. basically the game doesnt get started till about 50 or 60 now, and the road to 60 is pretty boring till about 50ish.

Defense Master Traits. (Lv60)

Merciless Hammer (Hammer damage increased against disabled foes, hammer skill cooldowns reduced)

Complete “The Battle of Fort Trinity”, a Lv70 Personal Story quest, for a Lv60 trait. (facepalm) Why would I wait 10 levels after the tier’s unlocking to get it? Again, another “Just buy it” trait.

Cleansing Ire (Gain adrenaline when hit, remove a conditions for each adrenaline bar spent)

- Kill the Vidius Flame Tribune (A Lv62 champion in Fireheart Rise). This one’s tough because of all the mobs around him, but possibly soloable with some line of sighting.

Last Stand (Activate Balanced Stance when disabled)

- Complete Sorrow’s Embrace in Story Mode. Strangely enough, Ascalonian Catacombs is not used for a trait unlock. Odd. Granted, none of the dungeons should, but of course, it happened anyway.

Sundering Mace (Mace damage increased against weakened foes, mace skill cooldown reduced)

- Befriend the dredge camp in the Eternal Battlegrounds. Ugh.

And now Grandmaster Traits, since my rambling on the master traits was short enough!

Spiked Armor (Gain retaliation when struck by a critical hit)

- Defeat the Risen Priest of Melandru, another world boss in Orr. I’ll just buy it if I want it. Although, it’s not that good.

Defy Pain (Activate Endure Pain when struck below 25% health)

- Find the locked door at the end of the forgotten stream. It’s simple…if you already know where to go, since they word it ambiguously.

Rousing Resilience (Gain toughness when breaking out of a stun)

- Defeat the Karka Queen, the world boss of Southsun Cove. This boss requires 4 unsoloable camps to be secured to even show up, is on a timer show she won’t just show up from the camps being secured whenever, and while rather simple aside from the annoying “throw eggs at her to reduce her armor” gimmick, is always flanked by whatever mobs are around, sine they’re always around in Southsun.

No thanks, I’ll just buy that one if I want it. Not worth bothering with Southsun Cove.

KStudios.2850:

Nilkemia.8507:

Now that I’ve thought about it, this trait unlock system is incredibly unfair to those that prefer WvW over the rest of the game. I don’t even like that mode, and I still see that they’re getting it worse than PvE’ers are. They’ve gotta buy most of the traits they want anyway. Giving them their own options for acquiring these traits would at least even things out.

You’re darn right it is! Keep your kitten dirty PvE to yourselves! KThnxBai!

o.O ..Not sure if serious..

The only mystery is why this debacle hasn’t been rescinded already.

The community spoke out against it before it was implemented and Anet refused to listen.

They speak out against it now that it’s implemented and Anet refuses to listen.

I see a pattern here.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Does anyone know whether traits are the same in the China release? If they are, does anyone also know whether a player base that had not seen the old system is reacting?

The answers to these questions may make quite a bit of difference in how ANet reacts to the criticisms in this thread. If the new population is not complaining (or likes the system), and it they want to keep the two versions as close as possible, we may not see substantial change.

I think that some of the complaints arise because we’d gotten used to how traits were. I also think that there are some aspects of the system that are objectively bad — like putting adept trait capping in high level zones.

Isley.1649:

Did the devs even tell us WHY they came up with the unlocking system in the first place?

From the Blog on traits before the feature patch.

“This new system for acquiring traits in the game brings back an aspect of the original Guild Wars that we really liked, which was exploring the world as a major component of character progression. Acquiring traits will be a horizontal progression system which will give us new ways to add new traits to the game and promote interesting content!”

Of course its because we were used to the old system. The old system was good and if it was like this from the beginning I would have quit and never bought the game for my 2 kids. I would have never spent the few hundred dollars in the gem store either. Its a crappy system. It is not a well thought out system like that which was used in GW1. There is almost 0 character progression through leveling now as it is all back loaded. Your best bet is to champ train or EOTM train to level 80 and then run through your personal story to get a few traits and then buy the rest.

It is not what people asked for when asking for “skill” unlocks like in GW1.
It is not well thought out as you can not get the traits for your current level with out help and the traits have no rhyme or reason about how they are placed. In guild wars 1 you would cap an elite skill from an npc that used it which makes sense. In GW2 they are placed behind a barrier because arenanet wants you to do that content, so basically they unlock where they unlock just because.
It does not make it easier for new players as it is confusing and makes them have to turn to 3rd party websites to figure out where to get any new traits with out buying them. And most of all it is not fun. Leveling used to be fun, this change made it tedious and boring with a push towards get to level 80 ASAP mentality so you can get to end game and start gearing up.

I don’t even understand why they would change it in the first place. The trait system was one of the few things that was fine the way it was. When players ask for a “skill” hunt like in GW1 and then you look at the systems in place, one a “skills” system and the other a “traits” system, why the hell would you change the traits system.

I see no redeeming qualities about this change that could not be done better with out the awful changes that were made.

Well…Tactics Adept traits.

Empowered (Increased damage per boon(s) upon you)

- Kill the Krait Witch of Nonmoa Lake in Timberline Falls. A Lv60 boss for a Lv36 trait. On top of that, this one is not soloable to my knowledge, thanks to the veterans she summons, all the AoE on the small space to fight her on, and the fact that the veterans can knock you off the platform up there.

Just buying it if I want it, again.

Inspiring Banners (Increases banner bonus range, and reduces banner utility cooldowns)

- Kill Gargantula, the spider broodmother in Harathi Hinterlands. This one’s soloable..if you’re either overleveled or specced for DPS and nothing else…maybe.

While this one is near level appropriate (Lv37) it’s annoying because of Gargantula’s one gimmick: At 75%, 50%, and 25% HP, she will summon spider hatchlings, heal herself to full, and be invulnerable until they all die, which means you have to do enough damage to kill her 2 and a half times over for it to finally stick.

Oh, did I forget to mention you have around 11 minutes to kill her when she spawns? That’s pretty much the only “hard” part of the fight, killing her before time runs out (and not hard in a good way, just the annoying way).

So, this is rare one where even though at the right level, it’s still tedious to do… -_-

Stronger Bowstrings (Increased longbow range)

- 100% completion for Harathi Hinterlands. Meh.

Desperate Power (Increased damage under 25% health)

- Find the grand chest in Provernic Crypt in Gendarran Fields. This one’s nice, just go through a crypt, figure out how to open the door, get the chest and the trait. And it’s doable before the trait becomes available to you, so all good here. Too bad it never lasts…

Lung Capacity (Reduced recharge on shouts)

- Capture Tytone Perch in Edge of the Mists. Ah, there we go with the annoying WvW objectives again. For a Lv36 trait, no less. -_-

Leg Specialist (Immobilize enemies you cripple)

- Complete the Lv55 Personal Story quest “A Light n the Darkness”, for a Lv36 trait. Sigh.

Nilkemia, did you miss the link I posted with all the tasks laid out and sorted by level-appropriateness? Here’s the post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/26#post4142831

The new trait system would be ok if there were dozens of new traits in every line, and every level of mastery.

As far as I can tell, there is but a single new GM trait in each line to unlock.

With so little choice, this trait system seems like just another “you have to be this tall to ride this ride” prerequisite system.

If there were tons of traits, scattered throughout the world, this wouldn’t seem so bad, would it?

ipan.4356:

The new trait system would be ok if there were dozens of new traits in every line, and every level of mastery.

As far as I can tell, there is but a single new GM trait in each line to unlock.

With so little choice, this trait system seems like just another “you have to be this tall to ride this ride” prerequisite system.

If there were tons of traits, scattered throughout the world, this wouldn’t seem so bad, would it?

New characters have to unlock all 65 traits in order to be able to use them. It does seem bad.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

I see no redeeming qualities about this change that could not be done better with out the awful changes that were made.

Well, being able to reset the traits and simplifying the trait points (every 5 into 1) were the positive aspects of the change. I also don’t disagree entirely with the trait unlock system…mainly how it was executed (and it was executed rather poorly, with buying the traits being usually the better option).

I will say that while the change wasn’t entirely bad, the cons tend to outweigh the pros until you’ve gotten all the traits you want.

Nilkemia.8507:

Desperate Power (Increased damage under 25% health)

- Find the grand chest in Provernic Crypt in Gendarran Fields. This one’s nice, just go through a crypt, figure out how to open the door, get the chest and the trait. And it’s doable before the trait becomes available to you, so all good here. Too bad it never lasts…

Unfortunately, this one is either bugged often or has been stealth changed. You have to kill the Elite spider to open the door. I haven’t tried it with a level appropriate character but I imagine it’d be a bit of a mess.

As a new player I feel I can offer a different perspective on this:

It feels way to slow and grindy, Traits are the real “meat” of a characters “build”, the weapon skills are static, and from my experience, the “other” skills are mostly buffs/stat passives/utility, the traits are what “define” the build.

It seems really slow and time consuming to even really start to form a build as it were, I never played under the old system, but I can see how it would have felt better in terms of progression.

Guhracie.3419:

Nilkemia, did you miss the link I posted with all the tasks laid out and sorted by level-appropriateness? Here’s the post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/26#post4142831

Ah. I did miss it, apologies. That’s what I get for making walls of text all the time…(shakes fist at oneself)

Post reading: However it appears that they swapped some trait requirements around between the trait lines (through they seem to stay in the same tiers). For example, the trait guide in the wiki shows the “Light in the Darkness” requirement for the first trait at the top trait line, while for the Warrior, it’s for the first trait in the fourth trait line down. Not sure why they even did that, since they’re ultimately all the same for the professions…probably just to mess with me. The grandmaster ones seems to be the not jumbled between the lines, at least.

vana.5467:

Nilkemia.8507:

Desperate Power (Increased damage under 25% health)

- Find the grand chest in Provernic Crypt in Gendarran Fields. This one’s nice, just go through a crypt, figure out how to open the door, get the chest and the trait. And it’s doable before the trait becomes available to you, so all good here. Too bad it never lasts…

Unfortunately, this one is either bugged often or has been stealth changed. You have to kill the Elite spider to open the door. I haven’t tried it with a level appropriate character but I imagine it’d be a bit of a mess.

Really? I just had to place rocks onto the pressure plates (unless it was opened already) to unlock the door, avoiding the Elite Spider so to not aggro it. Then again, it’s been about a week or more since I was last there, so I’ll check again. Sorry if I got it wrong. :s

One of the side effects of this new disastrous trait system is the nerfing of the mobs in the low level areas to compensate for the weaker traitless low level characters. This in itself has hurt the game.

Before I could take a high level character around with a friend’s low level one and we could both enjoy the play. Now either the high level character refrains from fighting or the low level one doesn’t get a chance to fight.

Nilkemia.8507:

Really? I just had to place rocks onto the pressure plates (unless it was opened already) to unlock the door, avoiding the Elite Spider so to not aggro it. Then again, it’s been about a week or more since I was last there, so I’ll check again. Sorry if I got it wrong. :s

Ah ok. I think it just bugs out a lot then. I’ve done it twice recently and had to kill the spider both times (I could ignore the pressure plates completely).

Nilkemia.8507:

KStudios.2850:

Nilkemia.8507:

Now that I’ve thought about it, this trait unlock system is incredibly unfair to those that prefer WvW over the rest of the game. I don’t even like that mode, and I still see that they’re getting it worse than PvE’ers are. They’ve gotta buy most of the traits they want anyway. Giving them their own options for acquiring these traits would at least even things out.

You’re darn right it is! Keep your kitten dirty PvE to yourselves! KThnxBai!

o.O ..Not sure if serious..

I was, and yet was not. I’m a WvW player. I’m tired of having PvE pressed upon me. I don’t want to have to go traipsing all over Tyria in order to be able to build an effective character. Keep your ingame holidays in PvE (the Wintersday decor in WvW), keep Living World in PvE (Scarlet’s minions muddling about in WvW)… In short, keep your peas outta my mashed potatoes, lol!

Sure I occasionally come out to Dungeon, Fractal, and even check out Living Story if I’ve heard decent things about it. Especially on weeks where the matches are dreadfully one-sided and we’re just smashing our opponent. That’s boring and generally no fun at all. Any time a game starts to see fit to force specific content in order to even progress as a character though, your freedom as a player is being robbed. There’s not a single thing good about this new set-up.

Guhracie has mentioned the this nice link showing the trait requirements:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide

While some of the requirements seem to be switched around for some profession trait lines, they seem to stay in the same tier at least (no adept requirements switched for master requirements or anything crazy like that), so it’s still mostly accurate regardless, so I recommend checking it out if you haven’t got your character past Lv30, since they decided that characters below that level aren’t even allowed to see the trait panel…yet another bad design choice in the new system, as new players don’t even get to try planning their traits out in the beginning if they know about them (probably not though).

Anyway, with that disclaimer out of the way…Master Tactics traits!

Burning Arrows (Increased longbow damage against burning foes, reduced cooldown for longbow skills)

- Complete “The Source of Orr”, a Lv80 Personal Story and the penultimate one before you go kill Zhaitan. (Oh noes, spoilers!) Yeah…why a Lv80 quest for a Lv60 trait? -_-

Quick Breathing (Reduced recharge on warhorn skills, and they convert a condition to a boon whenever used)

- Kill the dredge commissar in Dredgehaunt Cliffs. This “world boss” might be soloable, though the constantly respawning dredge (which are also powered up by his presence) would make it tough to do, if possible. At least it’s doable before the unlock level.

Empower Allies (Increase power of nearby allies when in combat)

- Find the grand chest in Arundon Vale, all the way up at the start of Frostgorge Sound. This one’s doable, though it involves fighting through quite some grawl (a few veterans among them) and some oozes as well, with a Champion Ooze sitting right by the chest. Thankfully, the room is big enough so you can pull/line of sight it down to the start of the room, then run up, open the chest, and get to the exit before it wrecks you. If you’re curious, it can pull you/throw you, shoots a projectile wave of sorts, and summons more oozes to help it (well, it only summoned one…or maybe I accidentally pulled one elsewhere).

Despite all that, I’m okay with this requirement, although it being a Lv72 objective for a Lv60 trait still annoys me a bit.

Shrug It Off (Use “Shake It Off!” when you have a condition(s) on you)

Find the grand chest in Verarium Delves in Sparkfly Fen. Just get the chest and get the trait. No enemies around it or anything. Although, the place is so obscure that I had to look it up, even after 100% map completion. Still, simple to get, (if you know where to go) and it’s doable before the trait unlock.

ipan.4356:

The only mystery is why this debacle hasn’t been rescinded already.

The community spoke out against it before it was implemented and Anet refused to listen.

They speak out against it now that it’s implemented and Anet refuses to listen.

I see a pattern here.

Time for some reverse psychology?

Oh boy, I LOVE the new trait hunts! With all the zone completions and other absurdly high-level, excessive-time-investment tasks, I’m MAKING SO MUCH MONEY!

Because nothing shuts down a system like hearing players getting paid off it. =P

/sarcasmoffnow

KStudios.2850:

Nilkemia.8507:

KStudios.2850:

Nilkemia.8507:

Now that I’ve thought about it, this trait unlock system is incredibly unfair to those that prefer WvW over the rest of the game. I don’t even like that mode, and I still see that they’re getting it worse than PvE’ers are. They’ve gotta buy most of the traits they want anyway. Giving them their own options for acquiring these traits would at least even things out.

You’re darn right it is! Keep your kitten dirty PvE to yourselves! KThnxBai!

o.O ..Not sure if serious..

I was, and yet was not. I’m a WvW player. I’m tired of having PvE pressed upon me. I don’t want to have to go traipsing all over Tyria in order to be able to build an effective character. Keep your ingame holidays in PvE (the Wintersday decor in WvW), keep Living World in PvE (Scarlet’s minions muddling about in WvW)… In short, keep your peas outta my mashed potatoes, lol!

Sure I occasionally come out to Dungeon, Fractal, and even check out Living Story if I’ve heard decent things about it. Especially on weeks where the matches are dreadfully one-sided and we’re just smashing our opponent. That’s boring and generally no fun at all. Any time a game starts to see fit to force specific content in order to even progress as a character though, your freedom as a player is being robbed. There’s not a single thing good about this new set-up.

Ah. I understand, even despite me preferring PvE. While they did give the option to buy the traits, it’s such a sink that you either have to know exactly what traits/utilities you’ll want ahead of time, and pick and choose to avoid going broke over trying to buy them all and experiment with them, which is why I feel this system is more detrimental to not just new players, but players who prefer WvW. The pros of the system (trait refund anywhere, condensed points) only really shine at the end of all that, which is sad, because there was more potential for this system.

Lazuli.2098:

One of the side effects of this new disastrous trait system is the nerfing of the mobs in the low level areas to compensate for the weaker traitless low level characters. This in itself has hurt the game.

Before I could take a high level character around with a friend’s low level one and we could both enjoy the play. Now either the high level character refrains from fighting or the low level one doesn’t get a chance to fight.

Exactly this! I have a friend who might be a new player to the game soon, but I dread so much of what he’ll have to put up with.

Meanwhile, the game is so back-loaded that it makes the difference in level scaling even more lopsided.

One of my earlier comments here was perhaps overly negative and didn’t fit the qualification of actually providing helpful suggestions for ways to fix the problem, so I thought I’d add a couple.

First, add more ways to earn points. It should be possible to unlock most, if not all, of your skills without engaging in PvP or WvW.

Second, change the system so that you choose which skill on a trait tier is unlocked after completing an achievement. This will let people play around with the trait systems they want while still making them work to actually level them up.

Again, this is a bad system that discourages new character creation. But it could at least be made tolerable by providing a choice to players.

Having rerolled a low level elementalist to give a fair “shake” in trying out the new changes…I can’t do it, it’s intolerable.

Leveling is duller than ever before with no noticeable incentives. It’s a pseudo-horizontal progression…a failed attempt at masking the actual vertical progression game.

Tying trait unlocks and enforcing hard level gating to tiers has hammered the nail into the little that remained of free-form play in the game.

Play it your way? Too bad ANet doesn’t understand that concept!

After returning to GW2 after 8 months, I’m out again after 5 days back.

Playing ALTs is now a joyless endeavor, the content is simply not compelling enough to warrant such a system.

Zaxares.5419:

ANet basically wanted to use the trait system to encourage people to do content in other parts of the game that they may not have done before. If they prefer not to, they have the option of just buying it outright. Unless you’re a completionist, you can get away with just buying the few traits you will actually use too. (Personally speaking, I’ve only used a handful of the same traits since launch. I don’t even touch most of them.)

Here’s the problem with this: you are either saying that they have effectively made a game that has a bunch of useless fluff OR that isn’t balanced to use all that they made for it. You are also saying that ll classes operate in his manner, which isn’t true. On my guardian alone I can find myself sinking points into each line to varying degrees for different effects and weapon sets I run with. If I want to have that kind of diversity then I HAVE to pen up everything or opt to not play my toon to its fullest. Thing is, a new player without the gold that I’ve gotten or the skill points may never get the chance to find out how many of those traits are worth it/wanted nor will they do it for a bunch of alts once they realize they have to slog through the same content over and over or lose a small fortune just to find out.

Left due to the clunky trait system. Heard Anet improved it making it easier to switch allocation on the fly to be more inline with skills. More opportunity to vary builds sounds like fun. Came back and liked what I saw. Started hunting traits. Stopped playing again after getting my third one.

How does a company manage to set their game back father after making a small QOL improvement for players? No, I don’t like running trains for skill points. As a returning player I don’t have a bank to fall back on to repurchase that which used to come with my initial purchase of the game. Now not only do I have to close the gear gap(which isn’t a major issue, I’m fine with working towards exotic and ascended), but I also have to close the trait gap to even attempt to vary my build?

What?

Kuldebar.1897:

Having rerolled a low level elementalist to give a fair “shake” in trying out the new changes…I can’t do it, it’s intolerable.

Leveling is duller than ever before with no noticeable incentives. It’s a pseudo-horizontal progression…a failed attempt at masking the actual vertical progression game.

Tying trait unlocks and enforcing hard level gating to tiers has hammered the nail into the little that remained of free-form play in the game.

Play it your way? Too bad ANet doesn’t understand that concept!

After returning to GW2 after 8 months, I’m out again after 5 days back.

Playing ALTs is now a joyless endeavor, the content is simply not compelling enough to warrant such a system.

Have to agree.

Lazuli.2098:

Bellizare.5816:

Thanks to the patch, I was able to kick my GW2 habit. Watching the World Cup and camping on the coast taking up my free time now.

This patch has helped me cut way back playing GW2. I do monthlies and most of my dailies but that’s about it.

I used to like leveling characters in GW2. I’ve got 10 with only 3 of them below level 80. Even though they have all traits unlocked (because they were started before this patch) the whole leveling process isn’t as much fun.

Same here. There’s just absolutely no incentive to level my Elementalist and Engineer that weren’t grandfathered in. My GW2 playtime has declined steadily since this went in, I pretty much only bother doing dailies now.

I would prefer them to reroll trait hunt asap, refine it without any pressure and then put it back.

And rebalance costs of newer skills / traits. They shouldn’t be based on people who have played for months and have dozens of gold and skill points. If people have too many skill points add more and easier ways to spend them. For example skill animation customization (can be disabled in PvP).

Well Anet, I was actually considering getting another character slot and making an engi (10 USD for you), but now that I see the effort that would be required, I don’t think I want to anymore. I can’t be the only one either.

I personally don’t think these changes have to be rolled back, but they do have to be changed if you honestly expect people to even try making new characters.

Suggestions:
-Remove skill point requirement from trait unlocks. This way experienced players who have already been through the motions don’t have to go through tons of bullkitten just to make a new character. This would reward experienced players and create a gold sink that is not limited by how long a character is played (which is good for you, it decreases inflation and may force people to buy gems from you). The current total skill point cost is RIDICULOUS.
-Make the requirements for event-based unlocks easier. 100% map completion of a specific map for ONE trait? Is this is a joke? Also as a bonus to the hilarious stupidity behind this feature’s design, the levels of the areas aren’t even directly correlated with the level at which the trait in question can be acquired. What were you thinking? Waiting to level 50+ to get an adept trait?
-Make trait unlocks account bound. I already have 100% map completion. Why should I have to get it AGAIN every time I want to unlock a new character? Rewards experienced players who have already been through the pve content instead of forcing them to drone through it over and over again.

You probably won’t listen but you are actually losing money because of this change. New players probably won’t even want to play, or at least not any that know me personally after I tell them how much easier it was for me to complete all four of my 80s and my one 79 than it will be for them.

Adding excitement to character advancement is great, I actually really really like this concept. You just took it to ridiculous levels that make literally no sense at all.

I shared some GW2 fanart earlier, and someone I know who was looking for a new MMO to get into was intrigued by it. This would normally be the point where I tell them that this is by far my favorite MMORPG that I’ve ever played, how it gets so much right that other games in the genre get wrong, how it’s the only one that’s ever been able to hold my attention for this long, and how I love that I can lay off of it for a few weeks/days if I need to without feeling guilty, and when I come back I always have fun.

What I had to tell them instead was that, due to recent changes that make the leveling process an absolute chore (in the best possible terms) that has to be done before you can get to the “real game,” I can’t recommend anyone start playing now unless they already have an account with characters grandfathered into the old system.

This is broken. You need to fix it.

And the ways to fix it have been stated over and over in this thread, but here we go:

1. Revert trait acquisition to the way it was before, with the exception of XIII traits.

2. Remove individual unlocks for adept tier traits and tie them all to a skill book from a trainer again (or just unlock them by default).

3. Rebalance the prices of individual traits, removing the skill point cost entirely. Seriously this is an absurd amount of skill points and there are enough things in the game that they’re used for already.

4. Add A LOT more unlock conditions, and change the system so that you choose which traits you unlock rather than each individual trait being tied to a specific condition.

or some combination of the above. And regardless of what you do, you should:

5. Award trait points every five levels starting at level 15 and revert the tiers to where they used to be. The six level thing is nonsense, the double point thing is nonsense, and 30 is way too late in the game to start accessing traits. Traits are the thing that kept me interested in my character—and consequently, the game—after the relatively dull first few levels. Yes a lot of players considered 60-80 to be a bit of a dead zone in the leveling process, but you haven’t eliminated the dead zone, you’ve just relocated it to the beginning of the game, the part that should be HOOKING players, not boring them.

I have eleven characters, and only two of them weren’t made prior to the Feature Patch. I’ve tried working on both of these (they’re my two favorite classes) and I just can’t bring myself to level them. It’s horrible. Needless to say, like many other people I won’t be buying any more character slots until something changes here.

Here’s hoping for some word on this next week.

Madderdin.3082:

This was one of the worst ideas Arena net has recently had. I am a WvW player, after reaching level 80 on a new char I had unlocked a total of 3 traits. To complete even 1 build I would either have to do PvE (which I really don’t like) or spend gold (that I don’t really have, because I don’t do PvE) not to mention the skill points that I just wouldn’t have if it wasn’t for the scrolls. The new char got benched, I will probably never level anything else and I am stuck with only 1 char that I actually play. I can’t try anything new. Because of that I cannot in clear conscience recommend this game to any of my friends, I just can’t promise that they would have any fun, if they have to spend hours after hours after reaching level 80 to even complete one talent build.

I’m picking on this one sentence here, because it shows how little sense is in some of the comments against the new system: It would be a problem if I didn’t have the skill points but I do!!111
So… where’s the problem again?

Honestly, it takes a lot of good will to not just laugh in the faces of everyone arguing against the system as a whole.

Oh, and 10gold say it’s the EotM traits that were unlocked here ^-^v

Bawi.9541:

Madderdin.3082:

This was one of the worst ideas Arena net has recently had. I am a WvW player, after reaching level 80 on a new char I had unlocked a total of 3 traits. To complete even 1 build I would either have to do PvE (which I really don’t like) or spend gold (that I don’t really have, because I don’t do PvE) not to mention the skill points that I just wouldn’t have if it wasn’t for the scrolls. The new char got benched, I will probably never level anything else and I am stuck with only 1 char that I actually play. I can’t try anything new. Because of that I cannot in clear conscience recommend this game to any of my friends, I just can’t promise that they would have any fun, if they have to spend hours after hours after reaching level 80 to even complete one talent build.

I’m picking on this one sentence here, because it shows how little sense is in some of the comments against the new system: It would be a problem if I didn’t have the skill points but I do!!111
So… where’s the problem again?

Honestly, it takes a lot of good will to not just laugh in the faces of everyone arguing against the system as a whole.

Oh, and 10gold say it’s the EotM traits that were unlocked here ^-^v

If you’ll reread the parts of their post that you didn’t bold, you’ll note that they’re describing the amount of skill points they need to unlock the traits for a single build, not all of the traits on their character. As in, you don’t get enough points to unlock everything you need via leveling up, and even with scrolls you only have enough to unlock a handful of traits. And any argument to the effect of “but you can just get the traits you need for a preplanned build and ignore the rest!!111” doesn’t really say a lot for the new system.

So there is a new patch coming on the 1st correct? Any idea if they will revert the trait hunt? I’ve been keeping an eye on the forums, but I haven’t seen any information or responses to this thread. Haven’t bothered to log in since I figured out what the trait hunt was all about.

Nothing like grinding and camping for hours before you can actually begin having fun experimenting with builds.

I was really starting to get back into this game too. What a letdown =(

After a long bout of laziness, I’ve decided to finally get to the Grandmaster Tactics traits.

Vigorous Shouts (Shouts heal)

That name is totally misleading, making it seem like shouts should give vigor or something. Maybe they should heal and give vigor? Eh, eh? Sounds like a good trait improvement, huh ArenaNet?… Meh, anyway….

- Defeat the Statue of Dwayna (a.k.a. complete the Dwayna temple chain). Another temple. Have fun waiting for it to uncontest first…nah, buying it is easier, unless you already run temples.

Inspiring Battle Standard (Banners grant regeneration to allies)

- Complete Honor of the Waves story mode. Another dungeon…yawn.

(Also, I typed earlier that all of the grandmaster requirements except the Karka Queen one were in Orr. With this, I now realize I slipped up. I’ll go back and fix it…maybe.)

Phalanx Strength (When you gain might, nearby allies gain might as well)

- Find the grand chest in the Ship of Sorrows. This one’s tough, but still doable, and a decent amount of effort for a grandmaster trait (and in this case, one of the better traits in dungeon runs and/or any group efforts) Oh, and it’s in the Straits of Devastation out in the water, so the Ship of Sorrows is a bit iffy to find, but not so out of place that you’d never find it. Although…the telescope for this trait gives you the wrong location.

May I ask why you need to pay for traits now? That just seems unnesseccary. Unless you’re going for a gold sink? Also, I had some freedom to make my characters more interesting already at level 15 before – I no longer do. This seems like a rushed idea, and, quite frankly, what good did it do?

Bawi.9541:

Seriously, how about we split this thread into two:
one for useless failtards that 1-80 in eotm, where all their feedback is gathered and aggregated and then thoroughly deleted,
and another one for people actually playing the game, whose feedback then can be used to fine-tune the way the new trait system is implemented.

Leveled 2 characters by dumping passive traits you got early on into toughness and vitality. Ran high level waypoints which was possible because you received these traits as a lower level. The day after they switched to this sub-par system, started a new character. After doing the very long grind to level 30, (playing the game) it was apparent my character was way underpowered.

Decided to run EOTM, which previously I have not yet entered, to level quickly and actually start the game. Hitting level 80 made things much better with this terrible new trait system. Went for a grandmaster trait at this point. After waiting a very long time, followed 5 commanders and a huge zerg, got the trait. Still have no clue went went down. Heck with that, just buy when you can afford.

The word “FAILTARDS” you used is probably pretty harsh when it comes to this not well thought out way of acquiring traits!

Bawi.9541:

I’m picking on this one sentence here, because it shows how little sense is in some of the comments against the new system: It would be a problem if I didn’t have the skill points but I do!!111
So… where’s the problem again?

Honestly, it takes a lot of good will to not just laugh in the faces of everyone arguing against the system as a whole.

Oh, and 10gold say it’s the EotM traits that were unlocked here ^-^v

You get 75 skills points from leveling.
Unlocking all skills, except the new heals and with only one 10SP elite, costs 78 points. You can add >100 to this figure if you want all your elites and heal skills.
You can create a build with your skills from this but if you want to buy traits you’re going to have to either farm skill points in open-world PvE or farm scrolls in a karma train (even if you include the few that you will inevitably get from the leveling process, however you decide to perform it). Or you can choose to only get SOME skills and also buy some traits, which would maybe allow you to put together 1 build.
Either way you’re severely crippled.

Bawi.9541:

(no offense to you, vana, that second part is not directed at you)

None taken. As mentioned, I hadn’t actually tried it.

they did this update partly to allow us to retrait anytime were not in combat
to test out stuff without being punished…
well.. partly its working

after creating a nother twink and leveling him up..

ive tested out stuff that ive not considered using be4…

the thing is once youre 80 you are either forced to buy the traits or do pretty much a whole world completion

and then u can test…

testing out and the stuff that is good and pretty much overused not getting instantly may be a good idea…

but if this leads to less people will try out stuff becasue they have to pay for it… mhmhmh..

i thin kthis needs some sort of overhaul

by just rewarding players with adept trit charges (or something like this) except of unlocking an adept tier trait

would be against trying out underused traits

so i dont thin kthis would be the prefect answer either…

well.. i hope its going to change and anet got some plans how to improve the current state of getting traits

funkyphresh.3705:

Well Anet, I was actually considering getting another character slot and making an engi (10 USD for you), but now that I see the effort that would be required, I don’t think I want to anymore. I can’t be the only one either.

I personally don’t think these changes have to be rolled back, but they do have to be changed if you honestly expect people to even try making new characters.

Suggestions:
-Remove skill point requirement from trait unlocks. This way experienced players who have already been through the motions don’t have to go through tons of bullkitten just to make a new character. This would reward experienced players and create a gold sink that is not limited by how long a character is played (which is good for you, it decreases inflation and may force people to buy gems from you). The current total skill point cost is RIDICULOUS.
-Make the requirements for event-based unlocks easier. 100% map completion of a specific map for ONE trait? Is this is a joke? Also as a bonus to the hilarious stupidity behind this feature’s design, the levels of the areas aren’t even directly correlated with the level at which the trait in question can be acquired. What were you thinking? Waiting to level 50+ to get an adept trait?
-Make trait unlocks account bound. I already have 100% map completion. Why should I have to get it AGAIN every time I want to unlock a new character? Rewards experienced players who have already been through the pve content instead of forcing them to drone through it over and over again.

You probably won’t listen but you are actually losing money because of this change. New players probably won’t even want to play, or at least not any that know me personally after I tell them how much easier it was for me to complete all four of my 80s and my one 79 than it will be for them.

Adding excitement to character advancement is great, I actually really really like this concept. You just took it to ridiculous levels that make literally no sense at all.

This !!

At the very least account bind the traits !!

Having to go to WvW to get traits is bad enough but on EVERY toon is ridiculous as well as the 100 % and higher lvl events that unlock lvl 30’s traits !