Guild Wars 2

Theory:

Player’s don’t take advantage of the new trait system and they don’t learn about traits with it, players come to the game with a build in mind (after playing for a bit most new players go to youtube and other sites and research into builds), so this system is just a chore, they get the traits they need and get the rest as a chore.

So there is no helping the player here…if you want to know how new players learn about traits i can tell my experience:

1-Watching builds
2-Playing those builds and sucking at them
3-Changing what I perceive as faults of those builds with the remaining traits

This 3 step is where a player makes a build his own and it’s where a more serious testing ground would help.

If you want to really help players (and not have the current system that for me is nothing more than a gold/skill points that are really gold sink) then teach new player how to make builds there own through serious testing in several conditions.

Suggestion:

-Tutorial on how to use NPC’s in pvp starting area to test traits and builds
-Introduce NPC’s that apply condition’s (1 each second ), (one different condition for each NPC, NPC’s would be placed in a circle so you can expose to all conditions )
-Introduce NPC’s that deal spikes of damage (one of each profession)

But and pardon my honesty I believe the system you implemented is not for helping new players but a gold sink to help the economy. I might be wrong…that depends on how you react to all this suggestions, since until now i see players saying the system is bad and a game designer saying it helps players…which clearly it doesn’t. If you are lying and your goal was to create a gold sink I can understand but please don’t give us bullkitten If you really think this helps new player’s you’re as game designer out of touch with reality and I fear for this game.

Hope you don’t take this as a bashing but as helpful input.

Hope this helps,
Excelsior

I don’t think adding tutorials are the answer . . . those who need it the most often aren’t going to suffer through the tutorials and will try to learn it on the fly.

It is known.

On the same side of the coin, slowing down Trait acquisition to try to get people to use them more isn’t quite the answer I think. At least the Trait resets shook out much like the old “Refund Point” system did in GW1 for Attributes.

Those who don’t know and skip the content that teaches them aren’t people you can help in any system. A good tutorial should be short and concise, you would go to each NPC group and learn how you can test your build’s with that NPC group, this wouldn’t take long. If you can’t learn how to use this to improve your build’s well…you can’t help those that don’t help them self.

Also please but pretty please if you want to improve life for new players make combat log improvements and make combat log window separate from chat window.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t think adding tutorials are the answer . . . those who need it the most often aren’t going to suffer through the tutorials and will try to learn it on the fly.

It is known.

On the same side of the coin, slowing down Trait acquisition to try to get people to use them more isn’t quite the answer I think. At least the Trait resets shook out much like the old “Refund Point” system did in GW1 for Attributes.

I understand your point, and it’s a fair one.
Though, my stance is – “It’s better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it”

In the end you lose a lot less people by having something teach you about a game, than you do if the game just threw stuff at you and presumed you’d learn it without any fuss or frustration.

TheBladeRoden.4571:

Problem: Traits are too complicated for new players

Solution 1: Explain traits better ingame

Solution 2: Make them even more complicated by instead of visiting 1 vendor they must now complete 65 different tasks! Tasks that

1. are 25 levels higher than the tier it belongs to
2. require you to do the Pv? that you otherwise would avoid at all costs
3. risk facing ganking hordes
4. require going into dungeons under-prepared
5. will take hours of map completion for one trait
6. involve waiting hours for events in map (thanks to megaservers)
7. are downright too bugged to complete
8. you get to do over and over again for each alt

either that or

1. spend the amount of gold that only someone with an existing level 80 would have +
2. spend the amount of skillpoints only someone who’s had a level 80 for many many months would have

Mission: Appeal to New Players Complete!

This pretty much sums it all.

I truly don’t understand why ANet insist to keep this system. I can only think of someone trying to save his own skin at the company instead of recognizing he did it wrong to begin with. There is no other logical explanation.

Mesket.5728:

TheBladeRoden.4571:

Problem: Traits are too complicated for new players

Solution 1: Explain traits better ingame

Solution 2: Make them even more complicated by instead of visiting 1 vendor they must now complete 65 different tasks! Tasks that

1. are 25 levels higher than the tier it belongs to
2. require you to do the Pv? that you otherwise would avoid at all costs
3. risk facing ganking hordes
4. require going into dungeons under-prepared
5. will take hours of map completion for one trait
6. involve waiting hours for events in map (thanks to megaservers)
7. are downright too bugged to complete
8. you get to do over and over again for each alt

either that or

1. spend the amount of gold that only someone with an existing level 80 would have +
2. spend the amount of skillpoints only someone who’s had a level 80 for many many months would have

Mission: Appeal to New Players Complete!

This pretty much sums it all.

I truly don’t understand why ANet insist to keep this system. I can only think of someone trying to save his own skin at the company instead of recognizing he did it wrong to begin with. There is no other logical explanation.

I just think its a case of – it’s easier to keep it the way it is than change it to something better or even revert it back.

‘Path of least resistance’ and all that.

BTW, I still want skill hunting. This lame trait thing is not even close to what Elite Skill hunting was in GW1.

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and dev-ines.” ~ Ralphie Emerson

So, somebody there (probably somebody too high up on ye old totem pole to talk sense to) decided it would be a good idea to put square wheels on the bus and now the wheels on the bus don’t go round and round and the passengers are complaining about the bumpy ride. Ignoring their complaints hasn’t quite worked. The passengers are still complaining. Some have stopped riding. Others are actively seeking alternative transportation. And worse, word is spreading and potential new passengers are no longer lining up at the bus stop in ego-stroking numbers.

What to do?

Well. You could try to distract the passengers a while longer by asking for moar feedback on how to tweak the shock absorbers or pad the seats or whatever, make them feel like they’re involved in the process, even though most will probably see right through that tired old ruse. Still, maybe it will buy you some time, and with a little more time maybe more of them will come to accept the bumpy ride, and the more vocally opposed will (at long last) go back to riding their mopeds, and all will be well, and then you can proceed with replacing the seat padding with whoopee cushions.

Or, maybe, just maybe, in the face of all this ongoing, unrelenting, and overwhelming resistance, you could – just this once! – be willing to admit it was an idea that didn’t pan out quite as well as expected (as in, duh) and put the round wheels back on the kitten bus already.

The sudden flow of relief and renewed goodwill from the passengers would surely serve as a balm for any ego bruises acquired in the process.

“What! No! I saw this on Mythbusters! It can work, kitten! It can wo-o-o-ork!”

Maxwell.7843:

You ask for specifics on the offensive trait unlock locations; I find myself agreeing with Kain Francois.4328:

X- 100% anything… No, no, no, no!!!! I do not want to do map completion on my 5th alt.
X- Kill Champion X [Group Event] and timegates. Waiting for Champ to spawn, then waiting for people to help…
X- Personal Story Traits… Too little, too late. A possible consequence of traits unlocking at level 30 instead of level 10.
X- “Find the grand chest near Scholar Fryxx.” (Straits of Devastation) This one is just annoying.
X- Any WvW objectives… This is THE worst of all trait unlocks! It combines time gates of waiting until an Ogre Camp expires, so that you could cap it… Then it also has the issue of no one wanted to help out. I’m sure even your own metrics will report that trying to kill the Overgrown Grub is dumb.

So I add my voice to those who ask to please make the traits unlocks “account bound”.

I also sign that.

Also to say it clear : give for all those traits simply at least an option that is soloable
content beside just buying it, and that is not a map-compltion. Or at least some of
the “popular” worldbosses (not Teq, Wurm)

Here’s my two cents.

Trait unlocks should never require a huge time investment or an organizational component. They should be simple and efficient. For example, in the GW1 system, if you wanted to learn a skill there would be quest associated with that. Some were very quick to complete and usually offered by a NPC in your chosen profession. That was a wonderful way for new players to learn how to play their character in the early stages of the game.

Now such a system here in GW2 would not work so well without creating new content. With the discussion of resetting/revamping heart tasks: this may be something to consider. I don’t think it would be too hard to tie some/most of those traits with hearts. They are easily soloed, and don’t require time or organizational components just to succeed.

It would be especially helpful to create NEW content relevant to trait. For example, want to learn how to increase damage to burning foes? Talk to NPC, event begins where you have to kill burning foes. Want to learn how to take reduced damage from falling? Accept quest from NPC and go fall off of specified ledge. I think you get the point. I think forcing players to explore obscure parts of map and doing mini-dungeons can apply for higher-tiered traits. Other than that, for those earlier traits, they should be simple and take no longer than five minutes to complete.

Ultimately, trait unlocks shouldn’t be crippled by time or organization.

For those of us who want to buy traits. I think the cost should be reduced by 30% to 50%, and skill scrolls should be made tradeable. Those scrolls drop like crazy and it would be a good way to let veterans get another gain from those. Also, for veterans, why not make a way for us to turn our skill points into scrolls and then sell them on TP. Just another way to reward those who have been around awhile, parting some our skill on to the newer generation of players.

Just my two cents

Tachenon.5270:

…So, somebody there (probably somebody too high up on ye old totem pole to talk sense to) decided it would be a good idea to put square wheels on the bus …

I think Tachenon has probably nailed it. This had to have been a decision by someone who doesn’t actually play the game, just markets it, analyzes it, massages it looking for ways to expand certain metrics, but isn’t someone who sits down and plays the game for pleasure. Whomever decided to gold-sink the ability for characters to actually play a full character, cannot possibly be anyone who has actually tried to run a new, untweaked, unfunded character through 80 levels.

Adding shiny new weapon rewards or whatever for leveling in the Sept patch doesn’t take away from the fact that you cannot really customize/play/try out your character until almost level 80, and then only if you’re willing to do 65 tedious or darn near impossible freaking tasks, or farm skill point scrolls so you can buy your skills and your traits.

It has to be glaringly obvious to Anet that the players have been unhappy about this change since April. The forums have not been quiet here, or at any other site with a dedicated GW2 community. Map chat has players with the “Wait, I have to do what to get a trait?” all the time.

For them to then come into this thread, with it’s thousands of messages, and say (not real quote) “Oh hai you guys? So, you’re unhappy with the traits, is that what I’m hearing? Ok, could you give me a bullet list? Oh, look a bullet list of four items? Perfect, thanks you guys, we’ll talk about these four bullet points. I mean, we’re not planning on doing anything, but we will totally talk about it in this week’s standup, I promise, you guys.” is just beyond aggravating.

In my opinion, this is an excellent idea, and I stand behind it 100%.

This game, in my honest opinion, was an unfinished project at launch…. and many aspects of the game could have used some polishing.

Adding more depth to character development is a definite must, and the only reason players are opposing it is the fact that they have played the game since before the patch.

If this trait system was in place since launch (which it should have been) then players would not have been spoiled to have all traits available at their disposal without earning them.

Players who leveled 9 toons to 80 without having to actually earn any traits, upon leveling up toon number 10 have to jump through all these hoops… and are completely put off by the idea.

…and rightfully so….. I mean who wants to pay for something they have been getting for free this whole time?

But look at it this way.

This should have been in the game since launch.
You were supposed to jump through all these hoops on every single one of your toons…. but you got a free pass for 9 of them.

I’d say you were pretty privileged.

In guild wars 1, players had to go out and explore the world, finding skill vendors, capturing elite skills from dead enemies, etc.

I believe this new trait system holds true to the Guild Wars feel of the game, and if anything, I oppose the fact that you can simply purchase traits with gold…. but I will stand by that also.

If players were not allowed to purchase traits after being handed them for free….. and actually had to go out and WORK for them instead of paying for them, there would have been even more gripe…. but I hope that the ability to purchase traits is eventually removed from the game also.

(Almost like weaning a newborn off the bottle)

Anyway…. that’s my opinion on all of this. Thanks for reading.

The whole idea of how to introduce the trait system to newbies is a quandary.. I realize systems change too much in an MMO to make maintaining a tutorial practical, but it’s hardly an excuse when the entire MMO genre is universally terrible at telling newbies how to cope with these complicated games.

There was a massively article asking commenters about which mmo had the best newbie support system in place, and more than half the replies were about /advice channels and youtube guides and newbie-focused guilds. Those are not ‘newbie support systems’, but very few people could actually name any game with in-game resources to help people out.

In the end I have to wonder how much this reluctance to work on quality tutorials is costing MMOs in retention. I don’t mean we need reams of text, but surely a little one-time scenario at the start of the game with on-screen prompts would close some of the gap.

I just don’t think merely hiding many of the abilities away for ‘x’ amount of time until the player is deemed ready to see them is any form of teaching whatsoever. Pacing certainly helps, but is it helpful if it’s not accompanied by some opportunity to explore a newly introduced mechanic? And the new trait system seems purpose-built to obscure and obfuscate the process of learning, not assist it.

To be perfectly honest they made the system too complicated.

It was way better when I would unlock a trait point every time I leveled. The only downside to that, which Anet brought up, was that sometimes people would have 6 or 11 or 17 points spent on a particular trait line, which wasn’t really efficient. This mainly effected new players only.

Now, I would have thought that the simplest solution would be to make it so trait points could only be spent 5 at a time, thus eliminating all the odd numbers. But instead Anet created this incredibly complicated trait unlock system that involves doing all sorts of events throughout the world and it’s just a pain. I honestly end up buying most of the traits because I can’t be bothered. But a new player can’t do that.

Simple is usually better.

Tryxtr.6295:

To be perfectly honest they made the system too complicated.

I agree, but I always found it slightly . . . “needlessly complicated”.

It was way better when I would unlock a trait point every time I leveled. The only downside to that, which Anet brought up, was that sometimes people would have 6 or 11 or 17 points spent on a particular trait line, which wasn’t really efficient. This mainly effected new players only.

It also had the trait resets require paying for them, so some people would hesitate to reset things even if they thought it wasn’t working. It kinda stifled experimenting a bit.

Now, I would have thought that the simplest solution would be to make it so trait points could only be spent 5 at a time, thus eliminating all the odd numbers. But instead Anet created this incredibly complicated trait unlock system that involves doing all sorts of events throughout the world and it’s just a pain. I honestly end up buying most of the traits because I can’t be bothered. But a new player can’t do that.

Five at a time? That . . . that seems like what one part of the revamp was. Reduce by a common denominator so you had less trait point mess and more “select what you want”. Now if the traits unlocked every five levels instead of six, nothing really would have changed . . . from how I see it now. But then you have two troubles: “dead” levels accumulating in between trait unlocks and for the last few levels.

(One could argue they were “dead levels” anyway, since you could just put the trait point in and wait for you to get enough to the Adept/Master . . . )

As someone who used to play this game a year ago and decided to return, this new unlocking of traits is such a stupid and dumb idea.

I made a new Guardian and I wanted to unlock Master of Consecrations. The unlock criteria is to kill some guy called “Lord Ignius the Eternal” in Lornar’s Pass. I had not even been in that map zone on my Human Guardian but I decided to make a run for it, thinking it would be a veteran I could kill and get the trait. After going to Lion’s Arch, north to Gendarran Fields, running west into Lornar’s Pass and then running south to the location of this “Lord Ignius the Eternal”, he’s not there. I run around in circles trying to find what I thought would be a veteran. After a few minutes and not finding him, I google his name and find out he’s a Champion mob and part of a Group Event, that I have no idea about how to trigger. And I’ve just spent more than half an hour just running to this stupid place.

I like the various ideas of having more generic unlock criterias, which aren’t tied to champions or specific tasks.

And they have a trait unlock based on Obsidian Sanctum? Why not also add “Not So Secret” Jumping puzzle too. That sounds reasonable. Making new players do frustrating jumping puzzles and champions, seems like a good way of getting rid of them.

After going through all the different unlock criteria for the traits, I don’t know how I feel about staying with this game any longer. It just seems such a chore to unlock them on my alts. And I don’t have the gold, let alone the 200+ skill points needed to unlock most of the useful traits.

How was opening your character panel, looking at the 5 options, choosing one and clicking a + button complicated for new players before? It’s literally opening a panel and clicking a button. RPG players are used to assigning points when they level up. It’s ingrained in the entire RPG philosophy. Sure, sometimes you make a choice that you later realized was wrong for your character build, but that’s what respec is there for.

What’s not simple for new players to understand is when they open their traits panel and can’t assign a trait because they have to unlock it first, and when they look at how to unlock it, it’s either vague or far too time-consuming. Most new players aren’t going to know what these world events and big event chains are.

I have a friend who just started playing GW2 not too long ago. I was talking to a co-worker about my character’s traits and we asked my friend what traits he’s unlocked so far, and he replied: “What are traits?” Because the trait system was pushed back all the way to level 30, he didn’t even realize he’d started unlocking trait points. He’d already figured out the “pattern” of how leveling up in GW2 plays out. When we started unlocking traits much earlier, we figured it out very easily, because it was shown to us up front at an early level. You knew it was a big part of the game.

I agree that building complexity slowly over time is the correct way to ease new players into a complicated system, but I really don’t think traits are a complicated enough system to warrant easing players into them this slowly, and I think it’s actually hurting their ability to understand what traits are about. Also, while there’s definitely the risk of new players becoming overwhelmed, there’s an equally large risk of new players becoming bored and seeing their character progression as stale and unrewarding.

Feonix.4790:

How was opening your character panel, looking at the 5 options, choosing one and clicking a + button complicated for new players before? It’s literally opening a panel and clicking a button. RPG players are used to assigning points when they level up. It’s ingrained in the entire RPG philosophy. Sure, sometimes you make a choice that you later realized was wrong for your character build, but that’s what respec is there for.

What’s not simple for new players to understand is when they open their traits panel and can’t assign a trait because they have to unlock it first, and when they look at how to unlock it, it’s either vague or far too time-consuming. Most new players aren’t going to know what these world events and big event chains are.

I have a friend who just started playing GW2 not too long ago. I was talking to a co-worker about my character’s traits and we asked my friend what traits he’s unlocked so far, and he replied: “What are traits?” Because the trait system was pushed back all the way to level 30, he didn’t even realize he’d started unlocking trait points. He’d already figured out the “pattern” of how leveling up in GW2 plays out. When we started unlocking traits much earlier, we figured it out very easily, because it was shown to us up front at an early level. You knew it was a big part of the game.

I agree that building complexity slowly over time is the correct way to ease new players into a complicated system, but I really don’t think traits are a complicated enough system to warrant easing players into them this slowly, and I think it’s actually hurting their ability to understand what traits are about. Also, while there’s definitely the risk of new players becoming overwhelmed, there’s an equally large risk of new players becoming bored and seeing their character progression as stale and unrewarding.

Most players, even the extreme casual ones, have at one point or another have put points into talent trees or skill trees, have made wrong choices and then have gone and respec. I’ve been playing games for over a decade and never have I seen a developer so adamant about assuming that their player base is stupid and needs to be treated as such. And adding unlock criteria that need to be done through completing complex jumping puzzles or world bosses isn’t going to get you new long lasting customers.

Like I said earlier, I’m already thinking of quitting the game. I don’t have the time and patience to go through Obsidian Sanctum on all my alts. I did it once for the achievement, I don’t want to have to do it again. I like making alts, as that was the best thing about this game: the leveling process. And by adding these stupid roadblocks you’re ruining that for the game.

I’m all for making the game as accessible as possible to new players. I don’t think the revised trait system accomplishes that goal. If anything, I think it most likely has the opposite effect, and I think it’s inconsistent with ArenaNet’s Design Manifesto for Guild Wars 2.

For one thing, it doesn’t introduce the trait system more slowly; it introduces it more quickly—but with a later start. Under the old system we acquired fourteen traits in seventy levels. Under the new one, we acquire fourteen traits in fifty-one levels. That’s not more slowly, to my eye; it’s quite the opposite.

Moreover, since we begin to acquire traits later in our progression, there is less opportunity during leveling to experiment with them and get to know them. If the goal is to make them easier to learn, it seems counterproductive to restrict access to them. How likely is it that players can learn something more easily by having less access to it?

Finally, trait unlocking as it’s currently implemented has the effect of penalizing players for avoiding gameplay that they don’t enjoy. I’m not talking about unlocks that are placed at inappropriate levels or on inconvenient timers or on buggy encounters. Those are all problems, to be sure, but they’ve been adequately covered elsewhere.

What I’m talking about is taking a core element of gameplay—the class traits in classes that were obviously designed around the trait system—and gating them behind specific game content, chosen by ArenaNet’s developers.

In the Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/), Mike O’ Brien wrote that, “It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

I submit that gating a core element of gameplay behind game content that isn’t chosen by the player is at odds with this stated philosophy. What if you don’t like jumping puzzles, or can’t complete them? What if you don’t want to play WvW or don’t enjoy dungeons? Well, then you must pay the penalty. You have a choice of how to pay it: you can play through content you don’t enjoy; you can pay up to get around it; or you can just play your character with pieces missing.

That doesn’t sound to me like a game that is designed to be fun from moment to moment.

The manifesto is a dead horse. Can we stop quoting it like it applies to this game? Whatever game it was intended for, it is not Guild Wars 2, and if you think it’s still their design philosophy, you haven’t been paying attention.

duckideva.6358:

Tachenon.5270:

…So, somebody there (probably somebody too high up on ye old totem pole to talk sense to) decided it would be a good idea to put square wheels on the bus …

I think Tachenon has probably nailed it. This had to have been a decision by someone who doesn’t actually play the game, just markets it, analyzes it, massages it looking for ways to expand certain metrics, but isn’t someone who sits down and plays the game for pleasure. Whomever decided to gold-sink the ability for characters to actually play a full character, cannot possibly be anyone who has actually tried to run a new, untweaked, unfunded character through 80 levels.

My thoughts are that this power player is probably the type of person who uses the trump card of “Metrics” as a means to force change.
Numbers dwindling on earlier levels and alts in lower levels? Revamp the levelling process!!

While it probably doesn’t happen like this, It’s too easy to imagine it does.

Tachenon.5270:

“A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and dev-ines.” ~ Ralphie Emerson

So, somebody there (probably somebody too high up on ye old totem pole to talk sense to) decided it would be a good idea to put square wheels on the bus and now the wheels on the bus don’t go round and round and the passengers are complaining about the bumpy ride. Ignoring their complaints hasn’t quite worked. The passengers are still complaining. Some have stopped riding. Others are actively seeking alternative transportation. And worse, word is spreading and potential new passengers are no longer lining up at the bus stop in ego-stroking numbers.

What to do?

Well. You could try to distract the passengers a while longer by asking for moar feedback on how to tweak the shock absorbers or pad the seats or whatever, make them feel like they’re involved in the process, even though most will probably see right through that tired old ruse. Still, maybe it will buy you some time, and with a little more time maybe more of them will come to accept the bumpy ride, and the more vocally opposed will (at long last) go back to riding their mopeds, and all will be well, and then you can proceed with replacing the seat padding with whoopee cushions.

Or, maybe, just maybe, in the face of all this ongoing, unrelenting, and overwhelming resistance, you could – just this once! – be willing to admit it was an idea that didn’t pan out quite as well as expected (as in, duh) and put the round wheels back on the kitten bus already.

The sudden flow of relief and renewed goodwill from the passengers would surely serve as a balm for any ego bruises acquired in the process.

“What! No! I saw this on Mythbusters! It can work, kitten! It can wo-o-o-ork!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH1uC1ld8zU

This is an excellent commentary on the situation. Hope Arena hears us.

Due to the current trait system, I don’t think I’ll make another alt

So I have played many, many MMOs in my lifetime and recently decided to check this one out. First of all I have to say I am impressed by the graphics, storyline, immersion and UI. All seem to be pretty refined. Then I finally hit 30 and started getting into the traits system of the game. Finally around level 46 or so, I realized I didn’t actually have any traits except for the 1 that was given to me. Weird I thought, how do I actually get them? So I began clicking on them and it said I could buy it or find it out in the world. Well the level 1 traits are already 10 silver which is honestly a bit to pricey for me to just buy. So I decided to go farm for this one in particular.

It said to kill XYZ in world. Cool. I went out and started hunting but could not find him. Then I went online and found out the only way I can get to him is if I complete some sort of “Meta event chain” which would in turn unlock this dungeon he resides in. Ok…So I finally complete that and take the portal into this mysterious dungeon. I began walking around and realize I am completely lost. I go back to the internet and search this new dungeon and begin reading about it. I find out it has multiple puzzles and is recommended that you take at least 8 people with you to complete. 8 people?!?! Where am I supposed to get that help from for a single trait?? No one is going to waste their time helping one person get a trait. That is absolutely absurd. So I teleported out and logged off. What a waste.

So Anet, this is the answer to the traits system? Requiring hours of work and group content for one person to get a trait? And that was only one trait, I don’t even want to go into the other ones. This has to be fixed. There is no way this is viable. As it stands, I’ll be level 80 and only have the 3 or whatever free traits I am given. That’s it. As a new player, please, please fix this system. You cannot expect new players to search and fight all over the world for every trait. It hinders our abilities. Traits are something that should be a part of your character from the get go, allowing full customization. I love exploring the world and finding every nook and cranny, but am I supposed to find the 50 or whatever traits for my one character out in the open? That cannot be what you wanted. That or the prices for the traits just need to be simply lowered.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I don’t think adding tutorials are the answer . . . those who need it the most often aren’t going to suffer through the tutorials and will try to learn it on the fly.

It is known.

On the same side of the coin, slowing down Trait acquisition to try to get people to use them more isn’t quite the answer I think. At least the Trait resets shook out much like the old “Refund Point” system did in GW1 for Attributes.

Step 1: Integrate the tutorials into renown hearts, like that glorious heart in Queensdale where you have to learn to block, attack around a block and charge a weapon before firing.

Step 2: Make completion of the low-level map(s) on which these renown hearts exist a requirement for unlocking a trait tier, et voila. Players have to do it, and they get rewarded three-fold for doing so (heart completion, map completion, traits).

I also support practice arenas for boss mechanics though I’m not sure how to do that without making it instanced, which I know takes up processing power.

eta: Alternately, integrate some non-optional tutorialesque content in the newbie instance the way GW1 did.

I am a veteran player of this game. My Sylvari Ranger has a lot of fun shooting cake and my Human Guardian is jealous she still has to wait a few days. After these two ladies I levelled two male characters to 80 before April. I levelled a 5th character to 80 after the new system became active. So I am probably not a player for who ArenaNet designed this new system. But I fail to see what you think to achieve with it.

What I did: I looked at all the traits, made a list and decided which traits I wanted to use on my new Necro. Then I looked at how I had to acquire these traits. I bought the ones I was not willing to wait for. Having already “bought” one legendary I could afford to pay some gold for traits. I did the necessary thing to unlock the other ones I wanted. So I got 100% completion of Gendarran Fields and Lornar’s Pass. I killed Sharky the Destroyer in Harathi. As veteran player I know how to get these unlocks. All of my characters try to get map completion of the WvW maps as soon as possible as I don’t want these maps to slow me down if I want the 100% world completion. So I got 3 of the 4 EB unlocks. But that Overgrown Grub I did not kill. Nobody wants to do that and the one time I tried I was an easy kill for some roaming enemies. The rest of the traits I am not actively going to unlock. Some of them I will unlock automatically. The rest I won’t bother.

What I want to say with this is that for me as an veteran player it was very easy to get the traits I really wanted. I just bought them. But new players cannot do that. Some of the unlocks are really stupid (Overgrown Grub), others are tedious (map completion) and quite a few are to difficult for the level of trait it unlocks (Sharky). So if you want to help new players with this trait unlock system you failed in my eyes.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Adding more depth to character development is a definite must, and the only reason players are opposing it is the fact that they have played the game since before the patch.

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

In guild wars 1, players had to go out and explore the world, finding skill vendors, capturing elite skills from dead enemies, etc.

The only “etc.” is quests that gave skills. If there are only three items, you don’t need etc.

“Finding skill vendors,” you say? They were in outposts. You didn’t have to find them. You went to an outpost, talked to the skill guy, and bought skills. That was it. You also got skill quests from people in outposts. The only method of skill acquisition that required going out and exploring the world was the Signet of Capture.

And those elite skills, were they on timers? Were they in the middle of Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry? Did you have to get a cartography title for them or vanquish a zone?

Or in fact did you only have to run out to a single boss and kill it? Yes, that’s what you had to do. It usually took a few minutes. There were however some bosses placed within missions. Normally missions took about half an hour, with some more like an hour and some (mostly in Nightfall) much shorter.

That’s it. That’s how skill acquisition worked in Guild Wars. It was in no way comparable to trait acquisition here.

While I still say the base idea of the current traits system is horridly flawed, and I’m reluctant to suggest “improvements” to in instead of just getting them to scrap the whole kitten thing as fast as possible…

The new collection stuff they’ve just announced would actually work well for some trait unlocks. Such as each major city having a vendor that sells 1/5 of a book that, when completed, gives you an achievement and unlocks a trait (and in the process, shows that you can get to all 5 cities). Or heart vendors linked to good “training” work like the one in Claypool each sell a part of a collection. Train with all of them, and you can get the items for the collection and get the trait (as well as being introduced to some basic combat skills).

Important landmarks (such as the headquarters of the 3 orders) can be introduced the same way. Want to know for sure that people are aware of dungeons? Put a small chest inside the first room of each in story mode that can be simply opened for the item. No need to clear the dungeon, just a small way to confirm that they’ve been there and are aware of it. Something similar can be done for PvP and WvW. Put those chests in the starting areas in WvW, Obsidian Sanctum, Edge of the Mists, and Heart of the Mists. Bang, you’ve confirmed that the player is now aware of those game modes and how to access them.

[Edit] And yes, I am aware that such achievements are account wide. Trait unlocks hidden behind “learn the basics” stuff should be account wide, and having them unlock automatically for other characters would only be a good thing.

MrIllusion.5304:

JonPeters.5630:

TLDR;
We added this system as a direct result from the horizontal progression CDI. We are always reading your feedback, however, we don’t always have time to respond right away or action it quickly. We updated some trait unlocks in the past but we can do more. How can you help?
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.
2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.

Instead of picking obscure Champions in areas, why not use the World Bosses instead?

There are far more people doing those.

If the intention is for newbies to learn about the game, then learning about the different World Bosses while leveling up is a good thing, rather than wait till lvl 80 and start grinding for bonus chests.

World Bosses would be pretty bad as well. You are now forced to rely on their spawn schedule for unlocks. Having the grandmaster traits rely on Orr temples is bad enough.

Khisanth.2948:

MrIllusion.5304:

JonPeters.5630:

TLDR;
We added this system as a direct result from the horizontal progression CDI. We are always reading your feedback, however, we don’t always have time to respond right away or action it quickly. We updated some trait unlocks in the past but we can do more. How can you help?
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.
2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.

Instead of picking obscure Champions in areas, why not use the World Bosses instead?

There are far more people doing those.

If the intention is for newbies to learn about the game, then learning about the different World Bosses while leveling up is a good thing, rather than wait till lvl 80 and start grinding for bonus chests.

World Bosses would be pretty bad as well. You are now forced to rely on their spawn schedule for unlocks. Having the grandmaster traits rely on Orr temples is bad enough.

At least there’s a set schedule for world bosses, unlike the Orrian temples. And the low level world bosses spawn every two hours, which I’m assuming is how we’d teach newbies about world bosses.

Jagdfygar.1394:

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

The only “etc.” is quests that gave skills. If there are only three items, you don’t need etc.

Sorry that you believe I’m using etc. improperly, lmao… but you are clearly forgetting every way you could obtain skills in Guild Wars.

“Finding skill vendors,” you say? They were in outposts. You didn’t have to find them. You went to an outpost, talked to the skill guy, and bought skills. That was it.

You needed to get to said outpost first. Many times, it was well out of the way of any place you needed to go to complete the story, or even complete a quest. Often times the only reason why you would even want to go to that outpost was to access the skill trader there… and getting to the outpost…. or the zone that a boss was located was most of the challenge.

And those elite skills, were they on timers? Were they in the middle of Fort Aspenwood or Jade Quarry? Did you have to get a cartography title for them or vanquish a zone?
Or in fact did you only have to run out to a single boss and kill it? Yes, that’s what you had to do. It usually took a few minutes. There were however some bosses placed within missions. Normally missions took about half an hour, with some more like an hour and some (mostly in Nightfall) much shorter.

That’s it. That’s how skill acquisition worked in Guild Wars. It was in no way comparable to trait acquisition here.

First of all…. Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 map completion were very different… and comparing AB to WvW is nonsense. WvW is a zergfest where upscaled newbies in starter gear can steamroll experienced players as long as they stick to the herd.

Second, capturing an elite skill in GW1 was not guaranteed, due to the boss spawns being randomized. I’ve heard of horror stories where players tried for absurd amounts of time to find bosses (such as Maw the Mountain Heart in the middle of the Southern Shiverpeaks in order to cap Feast of Corruption)

Third, We are comparing apples and oranges by comparing GW1 and GW2 if you haven’t realized. They are both different. But the fact of the matter is that they are both fruit… the same way GW1 and GW2 are both games…. and in both games you had to actually EARN the ability to use more skills/traits. The fact that GW2 requires you to do different things than you had to do in GW1, does not change the fact that you are earning them… same as in both games.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

In my opinion, this is an excellent idea, and I stand behind it 100%.

This game, in my honest opinion, was an unfinished project at launch…. and many aspects of the game could have used some polishing.

Adding more depth to character development is a definite must, and the only reason players are opposing it is the fact that they have played the game since before the patch.

If this trait system was in place since launch (which it should have been) then players would not have been spoiled to have all traits available at their disposal without earning them.

Players who leveled 9 toons to 80 without having to actually earn any traits, upon leveling up toon number 10 have to jump through all these hoops… and are completely put off by the idea.

…and rightfully so….. I mean who wants to pay for something they have been getting for free this whole time?

But look at it this way.

This should have been in the game since launch.
You were supposed to jump through all these hoops on every single one of your toons…. but you got a free pass for 9 of them.

I’d say you were pretty privileged.

I can assure you that I’d never have purchased this game if the current trait system had been in place at launch. I certainly wouldn’t have purchased a second account, or additional character slots. See, I’m not a fan of jumping through hoops. Especially not the same, tired hoops on all 12 of my level 80’s.

Saying that it was worse in the original game is not a good defense of the current system. It just means the original one was bad, too.

Quite frankly, I think a new player’s views are every bit as valid as anyone who played before the April feature patch, since this system was put in place to “help” ease the “confusion” having simple trait unlocks apparently caused prior to that patch.

Sometimes the grass really is greener. Otherwise we’d never move.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

In my opinion, this is an excellent idea, and I stand behind it 100%.

This game, in my honest opinion, was an unfinished project at launch…. and many aspects of the game could have used some polishing.

Adding more depth to character development is a definite must, and the only reason players are opposing it is the fact that they have played the game since before the patch.

If this trait system was in place since launch (which it should have been) then players would not have been spoiled to have all traits available at their disposal without earning them.

Players who leveled 9 toons to 80 without having to actually earn any traits, upon leveling up toon number 10 have to jump through all these hoops… and are completely put off by the idea.

…and rightfully so….. I mean who wants to pay for something they have been getting for free this whole time?

But look at it this way.

This should have been in the game since launch.
You were supposed to jump through all these hoops on every single one of your toons…. but you got a free pass for 9 of them.

I’d say you were pretty privileged.

In guild wars 1, players had to go out and explore the world, finding skill vendors, capturing elite skills from dead enemies, etc.

I believe this new trait system holds true to the Guild Wars feel of the game, and if anything, I oppose the fact that you can simply purchase traits with gold…. but I will stand by that also.

If players were not allowed to purchase traits after being handed them for free….. and actually had to go out and WORK for them instead of paying for them, there would have been even more gripe…. but I hope that the ability to purchase traits is eventually removed from the game also.

(Almost like weaning a newborn off the bottle)

Anyway…. that’s my opinion on all of this. Thanks for reading.

Having work for the traits isn’t the issue. There are three pressing concerns.

1. Cost vs. reward is completely unequal.

Take for example running map complete in Lornar’s Pass. I’ve already done it twice, I really have no interest in doing it a third time when 1. my toon is already level 80 because of all the other stuff I had to do to track down the other traits so I don’t really get anything except the trait and some more skill points and 2. the trait probably isn’t going to influence my build in any way.

2. The stated goal of the trait change was to get players (mostly new ones) more comfortable with how traits worked by gating them and then allowing them to change their builds on the fly.

The extreme amount of time required to actually get most, if not all, the traits far outweighs the time it takes to level to 80, even going at a newbie’s pace. You don’t get to learn how to play until the endgame, which, to my knowledge, was the exact opposite of how the designers wanted GW2 to work.

3. Many professions (Engi and Mesmer have been brought up in this thread) were created from launch to need traits to really let them shine and for a player to understand how they fully function.

Traits are a required facet of their core functionality and without them, players are NOT able to learn how their professions function until they reach level 80 and pick a build. This was not adjusted when trait unlocking was established.

I don’t disagree with you that some effort (and in turn a little direction) is nice when you make an alt. It gives you a chance to “play” that character. However, the implementation is awful. You reach level 30, 60, or 80, and oftentimes find that, although you have access to equipping traits of those levels, you have no traits to equip and won’t for another 10-15 levels. That needs to be changed, and it needs to be changed pronto.

Guhracie.3419:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

In my opinion, this is an excellent idea, and I stand behind it 100%.

This game, in my honest opinion, was an unfinished project at launch…. and many aspects of the game could have used some polishing.

Adding more depth to character development is a definite must, and the only reason players are opposing it is the fact that they have played the game since before the patch.

If this trait system was in place since launch (which it should have been) then players would not have been spoiled to have all traits available at their disposal without earning them.

Players who leveled 9 toons to 80 without having to actually earn any traits, upon leveling up toon number 10 have to jump through all these hoops… and are completely put off by the idea.

…and rightfully so….. I mean who wants to pay for something they have been getting for free this whole time?

But look at it this way.

This should have been in the game since launch.
You were supposed to jump through all these hoops on every single one of your toons…. but you got a free pass for 9 of them.

I’d say you were pretty privileged.

I can assure you that I’d never have purchased this game if the current trait system had been in place at launch. I certainly wouldn’t have purchased a second account, or additional character slots. … Especially not the same, tired hoops on all 12 of my level 80’s.

The reason why Anet is doing this is because players are amassing several fully leveled, complete lvl 80 characters, which can be created, fully leveled and fully geared in two minutes. (through the use of tomes and gold)
I, like you, have many fully leveled and geared toons (10)…. and the two most recent toons I created were both level 80 on the first day of creation. No depth whatsoever. They made it as far as Lion’s Arch…. and I think one of those two toons had something like 2% map completion wearing full exotic and ascended gear.

Fun stuff.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Guhracie.3419:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

In my opinion, this is an excellent idea, and I stand behind it 100%.

This game, in my honest opinion, was an unfinished project at launch…. and many aspects of the game could have used some polishing.

Adding more depth to character development is a definite must, and the only reason players are opposing it is the fact that they have played the game since before the patch.

If this trait system was in place since launch (which it should have been) then players would not have been spoiled to have all traits available at their disposal without earning them.

Players who leveled 9 toons to 80 without having to actually earn any traits, upon leveling up toon number 10 have to jump through all these hoops… and are completely put off by the idea.

…and rightfully so….. I mean who wants to pay for something they have been getting for free this whole time?

But look at it this way.

This should have been in the game since launch.
You were supposed to jump through all these hoops on every single one of your toons…. but you got a free pass for 9 of them.

I’d say you were pretty privileged.

I can assure you that I’d never have purchased this game if the current trait system had been in place at launch. I certainly wouldn’t have purchased a second account, or additional character slots. … Especially not the same, tired hoops on all 12 of my level 80’s.

The reason why Anet is doing this is because players are amassing several fully leveled, complete lvl 80 characters, which can be created, fully leveled and fully geared in two minutes. (through the use of tomes and gold)
I, like you, have many fully leveled and geared toons (10)…. and the two most recent toons I created were both level 80 on the first day of creation. No depth whatsoever. They made it as far as Lion’s Arch…. and I think one of those two toons had something like 2% map completion wearing full exotic and ascended gear.

Fun stuff.

Or we could assume they’re not lying to our faces about their reasons, which are to improve clarity with how the system works and create a feeling of horizontal progression (both of which are stated in this thread).

Whether this was accomplished or not is up to debate, but the reasons have been pretty clear.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

…
The reason why Anet is doing this is because players are amassing several fully leveled, complete lvl 80 characters, which can be created, fully leveled and fully geared in two minutes. (through the use of tomes and gold)
I, like you, have many fully leveled and geared toons (10)…. and the two most recent toons I created were both level 80 on the first day of creation. No depth whatsoever. ..

It was your choice to play such a shallow game. No one forced you.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Not only did I not tell you that, I did not tell you anything which could be reasonably construed as that. I said the current system is bad. I never said the old system was good, precisely because I never used it. The suggestion I made was to unlock traits on level up, which is not the old system.

Sorry that you believe I’m using etc. improperly, lmao… but you are clearly forgetting every way you could obtain skills in Guild Wars.

Do you really want to talk about skill tomes, which were added in the game’s old age so players wouldn’t even have to bother doing the tiny amount of work it took to get a new skill?

You needed to get to said outpost first. Many times, it was well out of the way of any place you needed to go to complete the story, or even complete a quest. Often times the only reason why you would even want to go to that outpost was to access the skill trader there… and getting to the outpost…. or the zone that a boss was located was most of the challenge.

That simply isn’t true. The handful of skill outposts that weren’t part of a quest were at most within one zone of a place that was.

First of all…. Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 map completion were very different… and comparing AB to WvW is nonsense. WvW is a zergfest where upscaled newbies in starter gear can steamroll experienced players as long as they stick to the herd.

And that’s why it’s perfectly reasonable to have a trait tied to the Overgrown Grub. Wait, what? What are you even arguing?

Second, capturing an elite skill in GW1 was not guaranteed, due to the boss spawns being randomized. I’ve heard of horror stories where players tried for absurd amounts of time to find bosses (such as Maw the Mountain Heart in the middle of the Southern Shiverpeaks in order to cap Feast of Corruption)

And even that minor amount of lack of player control seemed excessive to Anet, which is why elite skills were given fixed boss spawns post-Prophecies. You’re not really helping your case here, whatever that is.

Third, We are comparing apples and oranges by comparing GW1 and GW2 if you haven’t realized. They are both different. But the fact of the matter is that they are both fruit… the same way GW1 and GW2 are both games…. and in both games you had to actually EARN the ability to use more skills/traits. The fact that GW2 requires you to do different things than you had to do in GW1, does not change the fact that you are earning them… same as in both games.

You mean like you had to EARN skills in Guild Wars by buying them and EARN traits in Guild Wars 2 by buying them? You mean like you had to EARN attribute points in Guild Wars by leveling and we could EARN traits in Guild Wars 2 by leveling?

I don’t think you have a case at all. I think you’re just here to tell us about how superior you are to the rest of us because we’re all just jaded veterans who don’t want to work for anything unlike in Guild Wars 1, even though many of us are new players who are only playing this game because we were just playing Guild Wars and thought maybe it was time to try the sequel seeing as we already had every single skill for every single profession and all.

Jagdfygar.1394:

I don’t think you have a case at all. I think you’re just here to tell us about how superior you are to the rest of us because we’re all just jaded veterans who don’t want to work for anything unlike in Guild Wars 1, even though many of us are new players who are only playing this game because we were just playing Guild Wars and thought maybe it was time to try the sequel seeing as we already had every single skill for every single profession and all.

You would obviously rather make assumptions about my character rather than listen to my message as a whole, which….. in case you fail at reading comprehension… is that the way you earn traits in the game right now is perfectly fine…. it should have been in this way since launch…. and the only reason why people are complaining is because it was always handed to them before this point.

When it was introduced, it even came with the ability to purchase the traits with gold for players who are genuinely bad at the game and fail at performing these tasks, which…. as you yourself stated…. was a good idea.

I think it is fair to say that I am well within my bounds to assume the only reason anyone would complain is that, they are unable to earn the traits by completing the tasks… and they cannot afford to buy them straight from the vendor.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Jagdfygar.1394:

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Old players want the old system back . New players want the old system back. Pretty good hint that nobody likes this new system.

The objectively optimal method for obtaining a large number of traits is buying them, regardless of ‘skill’. The system is poorly designed and you are only saying otherwise to be contrary.

tofumon.5924:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Jagdfygar.1394:

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Old players want the old system back . New players want the old system back. Pretty good hint that nobody likes this new system.

This is the case. I’ve tried the new system, and I hate it. With the old system I’d try out a build while leveling, if it didn’t work from what I had unlocked in terms of level, I’d pay the money and redo the traits before trying another one. I feel less inclined to try out anything now, because it’s a waste of gold and skill points to try out new things now.

My hold over ideas that you asked for, Jon.

1: Make all adepts already learned and usable at level 15. Master and grandmasters will still be hunted.
2: All traits account bound.
3. Remove all tier restrictions. High end traits are self limiting by level and difficulty. Players can invest in a full trait line with full adepts (and majors when they acquire them) if they so desire.

Wouldn’t fix everything, but would be super simple to execute and give a lot of choice.

petespri.6548:

My hold over ideas that you asked for, Jon.

1: Make all adepts already learned and usable at level 15. Master and grandmasters will still be hunted.
2: All traits account bound.
3. Remove all tier restrictions. High end traits are self limiting by level and difficulty. Players can invest in a full trait line with full adepts (and majors when they acquire them) if they so desire.

Wouldn’t fix everything, but would be super simple to execute and give a lot of choice.

A change like this would restore a huge amount of my faith in the game.

Thank you to Jon for replying to the thread, and to the devs that are monitoring the feedback being sent it. Although it was a brief discussion, it is comforting to know that this issue is finally being looked into more intently. While I cannot offer any specific feedback that is brand new, I will throw in my two coppers to voice my support for certain ideas that have been already suggested by other players.

First off, I think that a total full-system reset to the “good ol’ days” is not the answer. I believe that many aspects of what we have right now can be salvaged and used to build a stronger foundation for character development than what we had with the old system and the current system.

Ideas that I strongly support:

• Unlock trait points at level 15 and trait abilities at level 20. Gain one point every 5 levels, for a total of 14 at level 80. (Simple. Balanced. Not too difficult for new players grasp, not too boring for old players to replay.)
• The tasks for trait unlocks should be level appropriate, and never set higher than what is physically possible for the player to achieve at their current level. (This one is common sense.)
• The tasks should not be gated behind terribly inconvenient content such as, boss group events, events linked to infrequent timers, wvw captures, and dungeons. (Many of the current unlocks are too difficult to complete solely due to the fact that completion requires either waiting for the correct time of opportunity, searching for help from other players, venturing into wvw danger zones, or a combination of three. While having a challenge is fun, some of these tasks are horrible choices for these reasons.)
• Felessan.9587’s suggestion on page 45, or something similar to it. (While it still requires a lot of work to fully complete, it does offer more flexibility in how a player chooses to unlock their abilities, and actually sounds like a fun and more rewarding way of exploring the map.)

Ideas that I am not opposed to:

• At least all Adept Traits are unlocked on new characters. (This will allow for some flexibility from the start, and give players the chance to experiment with some basic elements of their class.)
• Remove map completion as a trait unlock. (Just a tad too time consuming for a single trait unlock, in my opinion. However, I know some players enjoy exploration whilst others dislike it, so this point is subjective.)

Ideas that I don’t particularly agree with:

• Account bound trait unlocks. (If the tasks are reasonable enough, I am willing to put in the effort to actually play the game on each of my characters and alts. The entire concept of unlocking your traits becomes meaningless if you only have to do it on your main character.)
• Make the training manuals cheaper. (Wait, what?! But these things are so expensive, especially to new players! I agree, they are ridiculously expensive. However, I repeat, if the tasks are actually designed to be reasonable enough for players to complete – while still being fun and challenging, of course – then there will be more incentive to actually go out and play the game rather than take the lazy route and waste money that could be better spent.)

Cheers. I hope that this feedback was helpful.

Sorry, because I feel the old trait system was far superior to the new one, I have no suggestions on how to make it better.

Someone back a few pages called this chores. (an unpleasant but necessary task) Not sure about you, but I would rather be out having fun then cleaning gutters and picking up dog stuff out of the yard.

Revert and come up with a separate system to teach newbies. You make instances for LS, why not an instanced trait school for beginners?

Daggos Skelito.2910:

You make instances for LS, why not an instanced trait school for beginners?

Seems like a good idea which could be applied to various other tutorial-type things (as opposed to tearing things up by the roots and replanting them upside down).

Dramatization:

Logan: Glad to see you’re up and about. You know, kid, you got a lotta guts, but without proper training all that’s gonna do is put you back in the care of Priestess Amelia. Which isn’t necessarily a bad place to be, if you get my drift, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Ahem. So here’s what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna hook you up with some guys who are gonna show you the ropes. They’re right here in DR and they’ll keep an eye on your progress and let you know whenever there’s something new you’re ready to learn. Now, get out there and act like you got some kitten sense.

I’ll be honest. I don’t like what we need to do to acquire a lot of the traits. It’s frustrating having to complete a dynamic event that is part of an event chain and not knowing how to start the event and running around the map trying to figure things out for an hour only seeing a few players in the zone and standing around for a while at the location hoping others will get it going so you can help out. It’s way to time consuming if you have to start the event chain from the very beginning.

Oh sure, go kill a champion but you get there just before it’s dead and you can’t hit it enough, or in time, to receive credit for it. Then you have to wait a half hour or however long it takes for the stupid champ to respawn again.

It isn’t too expensive to buy traits from the skill trainer and he has every single trait for your profession available to buy. I would rather just buy my traits I need than run around having to do group content that requires a group of players and the event is on a timer.

The only reason I have made new characters since the patch is because I’ve gotten over 200 tomes of knowledge from pvp, thousands of scrolls of knowledge, and have enough money to buy traits directly. But even then I’m not shelling out for every trait- just the ones i’m absolutely sure i’ll need. I can experiment with builds on my pre-patch 80s but when it comes to the new ones it’s not worth unlocking everything when I won’t use most.
I feel so, so sorry for any new player who doesnt know the game world well, is stuck with a semi-disabled character and is told to go kill the overgrown grub in wvw for a trait they may not even have use for.
It’s been said before but I can see this change as a gold sink but definitely not as a way to help new players or make their growth easier or more fun. And this is coming from someone who LOVES exploration in pve, dynamic events, vistas etc. and took to them like a fish to water in my newbie days.

tofumon.5924:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Jagdfygar.1394:

I didn’t play before that patch. Many players in this thread didn’t play before that patch. There have been 2 sales since then, and a lot of new players leveling for the first time. Your theory is unfounded.

You are telling me that, you are complaining that something was changed, and you would rather have it be the way it used to be…. when you had no idea how boring and dull it was before? Usually people make a choice after they have experienced both options. Sounds like you have a typical case of “the grass always being greener,” imho.

Old players want the old system back . New players want the old system back. Pretty good hint that nobody likes this new system.

The thing is….. if the whole notion of “the old system” didn’t exist….. nobody would even be complaining.

Imagine…..
Filling your car at the station was completely free for the longest time….
Then someone comes along and says….
From this moment onward, you need to pay for your gasoline.
Imagine the uproar.

back to reality…. if you did the same thing…. asked the same question in the world today….. nobody would be complaining about having to pay, since it has always been this way… and nobody knows what it is like to get free gas. Of course everyone is going to want to get it for free….. but they aren’t going to think that paying for it is so absolutely horrible that they need to complain about it (and sure people will complain about the price…. but they never knew a world where it would be free…. so the notion of paying is already normal)

Same exact thing here.

The only reason anyone is complaining about this is the notion that it used to be given away before.

I can guarantee you i would feel just as frustrated and appalled at this system had it been in here at launch. Bad is bad.