Guild Wars 2

runeblade.7514:

Bernie.8674:

It was brilliant until they screwed it up with this alt-unfriendly trait system. I’m optimistic that it will be brilliant again.

I have many alts, I never once thought it was alt-unfriendly.

Created before or after the feature pack in which all the traits had to be individually unlocked rather than purchased en masse through a handful of books?

runeblade.7514:

Daggos Skelito.2910:

runeblade.7514:

If it was there when launched, no one would complain.

In fact, this was a hyped up feature when it was announced. Everybody wanted it before it was implemented.

You are right about no one would be complaining if it was at launch. No one would be playing! Read what the new players are saying.

I’m thinking everyone wanted elite SKILL hunting like GW1 had it. Now that was fun!

You think Elite skill hunting is fun but you don’t think Trait hunting is fun. Okay.

… like GW1 had it.

That’s the key. Unlocking skills by capturing them from bosses that you could spawn on your own time with a group of heroes and/or henchmen was fun. Unlocking traits through events that spawn on a set schedule, often hours between spawns, is not so much fun. The fact that you often need a full group of players to stand a chance against these bosses is also not so fun. On top of that, bear in mind that in GW1 you could unlock each skill through PvP or PvE. The traits in GW2 are unlocked through only one means (i.e. WvW or PvE), or they are purchased at prohibitive prices.

my question isn’t what are they changing anymore because they already have this set in stone, my question now is WHEN do we get the info.
it’s bin long enough, the wait is not fun anymore, at least show something.
a time frame about when they are planning to talking about systems would be a start, even if it’s a global “this X month” it’s still better then total silence.

I am cautiously optimistic about the trait changes… very cautiously. The current iteration was supposed to be an improvement after all. While I am happy that a change will be made, I can’t just jump to happy mode on it.

The problem, however, is not in any borked change. The problem is that, if everyone hates the changes, we have proof that, most likely, we will be ignored.

The only chance we have that we will not be ignored is that everyone will be funneled through the changes. If they are as bad as the April change were, the yelling might be loud enough to make them fix it… or not.

runeblade.7514:

Bernie.8674:

It was brilliant until they screwed it up with this alt-unfriendly trait system. I’m optimistic that it will be brilliant again.

I have many alts, I never once thought it was alt-unfriendly.

1) How many alts
2) How many were grandfathered in vs how many were new after April 15th
3) On the post April 15th alts, how many traits do you have unlocked per toon
4) On alts rolled after April 15th, how many traits did you buy vs unlock
5) Are you a player that is sitting on stacks and stacks of skill points and who is wealthy enough that 43 gold per alt is not a big deal

There’s going to be upset players no matter what. If they change it too much those that leveled characters and got traits using this current system by spending time and effort and/or money will be kittened that others will not have to go through the same agony. If they don’t change it enough it will be nothing but a variation of this current mess.

I’ve gotten to the point where I don’t much care any more. I’ve resigned myself to never creating and leveling another character and am playing the game less and less.

Gregori.5807:

runeblade.7514:

Bernie.8674:

It was brilliant until they screwed it up with this alt-unfriendly trait system. I’m optimistic that it will be brilliant again.

I have many alts, I never once thought it was alt-unfriendly.

1) How many alts
2) How many were grandfathered in vs how many were new after April 15th
3) On the post April 15th alts, how many traits do you have unlocked per toon
4) On alts rolled after April 15th, how many traits did you buy vs unlock
5) Are you a player that is sitting on stacks and stacks of skill points and who is wealthy enough that 43 gold per alt is not a big deal

1. Look in my signature.
2. 5 are before patch. The rest after patch
3. 20 of them unlocked everything. 4-5 did not unlock everything.
4. I bought somewhere around 0-4 traits for each character because I didn’t like the traits I got. Then I hunted down the rest.
5. Nope. I am not sitting on stacks and stacks of gold. I do have a lot of skillpoint scrolls I forgot to use.

DarkSpirit.7046:

I have always thought this trait unlocking system was counter productive.

1. It discourages build experimentation.
2. It discourages you from playing in different formats by optimizing your builds. If I have bought traits for PvE, I would have to pay for new traits for WvW/PvP if I want to optimize my build.
3. It gives an unfair advantage to older characters who do not have to unlock traits, especially in WvW/PvP as they do not have the current restrictions to optimize their builds, like the new characters do.

1. It also encourages build experimentation. I found myself experimenting when I get a new trait. Not all players decides to fiddle with everything from the moment they unlock a large sets of traits. Some players like to experiment a few at a time.
2. It also encourages optimizing builds. When it is easier to experiment builds, it encourages optimizing builds.
3. Not really. An unfair advantage is when you are not using the meta build and the other players are using meta builds. You only need a minimum of 7 traits. Any player can afford that much.

Gregori.5807:

I am cautiously optimistic about the trait changes… very cautiously. The current iteration was supposed to be an improvement after all. While I am happy that a change will be made, I can’t just jump to happy mode on it.

The problem, however, is not in any borked change. The problem is that, if everyone hates the changes, we have proof that, most likely, we will be ignored.

The only chance we have that we will not be ignored is that everyone will be funneled through the changes. If they are as bad as the April change were, the yelling might be loud enough to make them fix it… or not.

If its more bad changes then those of us that dislike the changes need to take it to third party sites. Since that is the only thing that has been shown to get them moving in the right direction.

runeblade.7514:

Gregori.5807:

runeblade.7514:

Bernie.8674:

It was brilliant until they screwed it up with this alt-unfriendly trait system. I’m optimistic that it will be brilliant again.

I have many alts, I never once thought it was alt-unfriendly.

3) On the post April 15th alts, how many traits do you have unlocked per toon
4) On alts rolled after April 15th, how many traits did you buy vs unlock

3. 20 of them unlocked everything. 4-5 did not unlock everything.
4. I bought somewhere around 0-4 traits for each character because I didn’t like the traits I got. Then I hunted down the rest.

Sorry, but I don’t think that someone who has time to level 20 alts in less than nine months, let alone unlock every trait on 20 alts is typical of the GW2 player base. Maybe when I win the lottery I’ll have the time to dedicate my entire day to playing the game. Until then I’ll have to settle for sneaking in posts on these forums from time to time and getting in 0.5-3 hours per night of play time. After seeing those claims it’s pretty hard to relate to anything you say.

Bernie.8674:

runeblade.7514:

Gregori.5807:

runeblade.7514:

Bernie.8674:

It was brilliant until they screwed it up with this alt-unfriendly trait system. I’m optimistic that it will be brilliant again.

I have many alts, I never once thought it was alt-unfriendly.

3) On the post April 15th alts, how many traits do you have unlocked per toon
4) On alts rolled after April 15th, how many traits did you buy vs unlock

3. 20 of them unlocked everything. 4-5 did not unlock everything.
4. I bought somewhere around 0-4 traits for each character because I didn’t like the traits I got. Then I hunted down the rest.

Sorry, but I don’t think that someone who has time to level 20 alts in less than nine months, let alone unlock every trait on 20 alts is typical of the GW2 player base. Maybe when I win the lottery I’ll have the time to dedicate my entire day to playing the game. Until then I’ll have to settle for sneaking in posts on these forums from time to time and getting in 0.5-3 hours per night of play time. After seeing those claims it’s pretty hard to relate to anything you say.

Not to mention the luck to be able to get in on notoriously bugged events and other timed events that often. I literally lucked into a cohesive build on my test necro and the warrior i just tried leveling through the system…well, I’ll post her current state of being trait wise once i get home, but its goofed up.

runeblade.7514:

DarkSpirit.7046:

I have always thought this trait unlocking system was counter productive.

1. It discourages build experimentation.
2. It discourages you from playing in different formats by optimizing your builds. If I have bought traits for PvE, I would have to pay for new traits for WvW/PvP if I want to optimize my build.
3. It gives an unfair advantage to older characters who do not have to unlock traits, especially in WvW/PvP as they do not have the current restrictions to optimize their builds, like the new characters do.

1. It also encourages build experimentation. I found myself experimenting when I get a new trait. Not all players decides to fiddle with everything from the moment they unlock a large sets of traits. Some players like to experiment a few at a time.
2. It also encourages optimizing builds. When it is easier to experiment builds, it encourages optimizing builds.
3. Not really. An unfair advantage is when you are not using the meta build and the other players are using meta builds. You only need a minimum of 7 traits. Any player can afford that much.

Quit trolling, if you have no traits then there is no experimentation. The old way I tried out tons of builds as I leveled even with being forced to pay the small fee to respect my traits. The new way you can not experiment in any way near to what you could in the old way.

Plus it does give an absolute advantage to anyone with characters created before the April patch. Whether they were sitting at level one, already capped at level 80, or anywhere in between. That is because when they hit those key levels they get all the traits unlocked for a very small fee compared to any newly created player.

For example, I have a level 20 necro created before the April patch. If you newly create a necro and get it to the same level and then we level together, I will be able to play with every single adept trait as soon as we get our second trait point. How many will you get to play with? 1, 2, maybe 3. Are the traits that you have acquired related to the weapons and skills you are currently using? Guess what, mine are. Guess what I’m doing as soon as I get a trait point. I’m experimenting. Ya know what you are doing? You are looking for those few traits that work for the 1 build you looked up on line. I don’t call that experimenting but I do call it me having an advantage. If I can do more damage or have reduced cool downs or have added effects to my abilities and you don’t, everything else being equal(armor, weapons, and level) I win. While you are still searching for traits for your build or buying them, I am playing the content I want as opposed to what you are getting told to play. Plus I am spending the gold you are spending on traits on better gear.

Everyone likes to only test a few traits at a time. Its called testing and refining a build. With my guy I can test and switch it if I don’t find it to my liking. You will have to stick with it till you find something better.

Of course if you are a vet and have tons of SP scrolls and gold to buy every trait then this won’t affect you as much but then once again that is called an advantage over new players.

The NPE and trait system changes are now leading the player very much by the nose.

The NPE decides everything. When you get to use dyes, when you’re fit to finally harvest resources, when you can handle a second weapon. And this was true to some degree before, but the old system atleast gave you access to most of the toys pretty quickly and early on. Now it feels like it just gets boring a little to long before I get to try something new.
Even when you get to pick new skills for the most part by giving you big bulks of Skill Points at set intervals, almost as if to say “here is your allowance to buy something nice. Spend it wisely, you never know when ill give you more” and than sends you off with a firm slap on the bum.
If you want to earn a little extra you do it by mowing the lawn and killing ancient apparitions. But that pay out sucks, your best bet is hoping your next skillpoint allowance is just around the corner.

The traits are even worst. They unlock so late and when they do you might not even have any traits, none of the decent ones at any rate.
If I didn’t have a lot of gold and experience in the world of Guild Wars 2 I’d just save up and buy the traits for gold. But not having a lot of gold I’d just end up googline “Best Build” following the profession I am playing, and copying it wholesale.

It does not invite to experiment because it’s to expensive to. Something I certainly did a lot while I played my first characters of any profession. Even that trait-line locked system allowed for more freedom than this, at least while leveling.

I am very curious about the demographic they interviewed to get the feedback that GW2 was to overwhelming. It’ll likely involve my mom.

I’m finding myself less and less enthused about recommending people make and try all the different professions before they decide on a main profession to play. The reason is that it used to be a breeze to get to level 20 and have a feel for that class. You had traits. You had access to all the weapons. You had access to all but the elite skill, I think.

Now? Telling someone to experiment with the professions is just… it’s a timesink, and it’s not fun. They’d have to reach level 30 even just to SEE the traits, in game. I’ve gotten a total of one character from 1-80 since the trait changes.

I honestly don’t care if Anet has to deal with backlash from people who are angry that they sank time and money into this current system, if the “new-new” system is going to be as much better as it needs to be. I feel badly for the people themselves, but Anet could’ve alleviated this issue by reducing the cost within a month or two- whenever it became obvious that they needed to work out a “new-new” system to integrate with Heart of Thorns. I’ve said it before that the longer they leave this wreck in place, the more angry the people that do interact with it are going to be. So this is very much a problem of their own devising.

For now, I’m just stuck collecting tomes and crossing my fingers that they deign to tell us more about this “new-new” trait system, because I desperately want to love leveling again.

From http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-01-29-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns-expansion-level-cap-gear-tier:

The expansion will be demoed at game shows in March, and the open beta begins “shortly after” that, Johanson tells me. That could mean April, or it could mean spring, or it could mean summer. But it’s an open beta and it’s not miles away. It also sounds like many of the final features of the expansion will depend upon the community’s feedback as well. He mentions that more than once in our discussion, which makes me believe it’s more than simply fan-pleasing words.

How long will the open beta last though, and when will the expansion actually come out? “We’re not going to release the expansion until we’re at a point where we’re really comfortable that we’ve accomplished those goals [which were promised].”

Sounds like we will get to Beta the new Traits system with the HoT Beta.

Guhracie.3419:

I’m finding myself less and less enthused about recommending people make and try all the different professions before they decide on a main profession to play. The reason is that it used to be a breeze to get to level 20 and have a feel for that class. You had traits. You had access to all the weapons. You had access to all but the elite skill, I think.

Now? Telling someone to experiment with the professions is just… it’s a timesink, and it’s not fun. They’d have to reach level 30 even just to SEE the traits, in game. I’ve gotten a total of one character from 1-80 since the trait changes.

Yeah . . . all honesty here, I haven’t gone back to my lowbie sub-30 characters since the Traits rework. I should, but . . . I barely had any drive to play them as it was. Not when I could run around on my ranger doing content with better rewards more suitable for my end goals (rares for ecto, components for crafting).

For now, I’m just stuck collecting tomes and crossing my fingers that they deign to tell us more about this “new-new” trait system, because I desperately want to love leveling again.

I desperately want to not feel ashamed for being on the forums and liking the game. So far, that’s not happening.

I’m cautiously pessimistic about the hinted at changes. ANet has taught me over and over not to be optimistic or to look forward to … well … anything. It’s better for me that way, too, if the only surprise would be a pleasant one (for a change).

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m cautiously pessimistic about the hinted at changes. ANet has taught me over and over not to be optimistic or to look forward to … well … anything. It’s better for me that way, too, if the only surprise would be a pleasant one (for a change).

MMO’s in general have made me cautiously optimistic at the absolute height of rare positivity on what they say and their always-lofty announcements.

Cautiously pessimistic is 80% of all they get out of me, followed by about 17% disdainful and 2% viciously infuriated. The lonely little 1% that’s left is my cautious optimism.

Joy and sincerely looking forward to things? Those have been entirely off the table since the tragic comedy that is SWTOR revealed itself to be the poo-geyser I and so many of my friends all found it to be.

naiasonod.9265:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m cautiously pessimistic about the hinted at changes. ANet has taught me over and over not to be optimistic or to look forward to … well … anything. It’s better for me that way, too, if the only surprise would be a pleasant one (for a change).

MMO’s in general have made me cautiously optimistic at the absolute height of rare positivity on what they say and their always-lofty announcements.

Cautiously pessimistic is 80% of all they get out of me, followed by about 17% disdainful and 2% viciously infuriated. The lonely little 1% that’s left is my cautious optimism.

Joy and sincerely looking forward to things? Those have been entirely off the table since the tragic comedy that is SWTOR revealed itself to be the poo-geyser I and so many of my friends all found it to be.

In a rare moment of irony I reflect on how SWtOR would have been a better game if it had not borrowed what it did from WoW, and GW2 would have been a better game if it had not borrowed what it did from WoW. Of course, the two games took mostly different things, but there you have it.

So, now, I’m doing the Cynic’s Tango over MMO’s in general.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’m cautiously pessimistic about the hinted at changes. ANet has taught me over and over not to be optimistic or to look forward to … well … anything. It’s better for me that way, too, if the only surprise would be a pleasant one (for a change).

Yes, upon reading the current trait system is going away, I had to take note that it’s replacement is not specified.

Not really surprising but as I do not know what our “new-new” trait system will be, nor what scheme they have for specializations, I am not at all convinced it will be anything more pleasing.

I loved the game before all the changes that came after the April patch, so I keep checking back, which is maybe an act of wild optimism. But, my expectations are low.

My plans are still just as they have been since the April patch: GW2 is a diversion for me another game. I will have to see if the next iterations of change will be pleasing to me.

IndigoSundown.5419:

In a rare moment of irony I reflect on how SWtOR would have been a better game if it had not borrowed what it did from WoW, and GW2 would have been a better game if it had not borrowed what it did from WoW. Of course, the two games took mostly different things, but there you have it.

So, now, I’m doing the Cynic’s Tango over MMO’s in general.

The weird thing, neither game would have probably existed if it weren’t for WoW. Well, maybe GW2 – it seemed honestly that was the only direction GW could evolve at all without completely re-writing the base game to be something entirely different.

But TOR? I expect it never would have gotten a green light if it had not been BioWare and WoW hadn’t already proven the viability of taking something already with plenty of supporting lore and installed fanbase to make an MMO.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Guhracie.3419:

I’m finding myself less and less enthused about recommending people make and try all the different professions before they decide on a main profession to play. The reason is that it used to be a breeze to get to level 20 and have a feel for that class. You had traits. You had access to all the weapons. You had access to all but the elite skill, I think.

Now? Telling someone to experiment with the professions is just… it’s a timesink, and it’s not fun. They’d have to reach level 30 even just to SEE the traits, in game. I’ve gotten a total of one character from 1-80 since the trait changes.

Yeah . . . all honesty here, I haven’t gone back to my lowbie sub-30 characters since the Traits rework. I should, but . . . I barely had any drive to play them as it was. Not when I could run around on my ranger doing content with better rewards more suitable for my end goals (rares for ecto, components for crafting).

For now, I’m just stuck collecting tomes and crossing my fingers that they deign to tell us more about this “new-new” trait system, because I desperately want to love leveling again.

I desperately want to not feel ashamed for being on the forums and liking the game. So far, that’s not happening.

If I have made you feel ashamed for liking the game, please accept my apologies. I am very sorry, and that isn’t my intention. I like the game, myself, even if it doesn’t seem that way all the time. I’d just really like to love it again.

Guhracie.3419:

If I have made you feel ashamed for liking the game, please accept my apologies. I am very sorry, and that isn’t my intention. I like the game, myself, even if it doesn’t seem that way all the time. I’d just really like to love it again.

No, you don’t . . . I get you want the game to be better than it is. There are a lot of you fine people who still love the game and hope for it to turn better. I’m okay with that – I’m on board with “this could be so much better if…”

It’s the people who think liking a game means the same as “I think there is nothing wrong with the game”. Or who equate “I don’t have that issue” with “there is no issue”.

Let’s not forget how the manuals could be bought from the TP. Putting in buy orders, effectively made the manuals even cheaper than buying from the NPCs at: 3 gold + 10 silvers.

Manual #1: 10 silvers. Usable at lvl 11. Unlocks all adept tier traits.

Manual #2: 1 gold. Usable at lvl 40. Unlocks all master tier traits.

Manual #3: 2 gold. Usable at lvl 60. Unlocks all grandmaster tier traits.

Anet could’ve introduced a 4th manual to unlock the new grandmaster traits (roman numeral 13). Complaints of the 1st trait system was the re-traiting option. We had to visit a trainer and pay a small fee.

I probably come off like someone that equates ‘I don’t have that issue’ with ‘there is no issue’, though I tend to look at things without a driving belief that my opinion’s anything other than that – an opinion. I don’t know about anyone else, though it pops to mind to observe that I might not be alone in that.

Some of us (me, at least) don’t always feel qualified to argue a point from a position of authority we simply don’t have. I know I hate trying to make a strong logical argument from a position of ‘I don’t like X’ and ‘I like Y’, anyway.

I can attempt to qualify my opinions as best I’m able, but that doesn’t change their nature.

Just a thought to consider! Some of us might not be trying to say ‘there is no problem’ quite as much as we might seem!

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Quit trolling,

I enjoy the current trait system, so that makes me a troll. Take your hostility and non-discussion somewhere else.

runeblade.7514:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Quit trolling,

I enjoy the current trait system, so that makes me a troll. Take your hostility and non-discussion somewhere else.

Yeah. On behalf of those with staunchly opposed perspectives, my apology for kittens like that getting nasty about it. Your post was cogent and stated your opinion well, I thought.

I don’t agree with it at all, but that’s its own pile’a peanuts.

naiasonod.9265:

I probably come off like someone that equates ‘I don’t have that issue’ with ‘there is no issue’, though I tend to look at things without a driving belief that my opinion’s anything other than that – an opinion. I don’t know about anyone else, though it pops to mind to observe that I might not be alone in that.

Opinions are rooted in something, and that’s what needs to be looked at first when you want to defend that position. If I believe something sucks, I want to at least bore down a level and figure out why I think that.

Some of us (me, at least) don’t always feel qualified to argue a point from a position of authority we simply don’t have. I know I hate trying to make a strong logical argument from a position of ‘I don’t like X’ and ‘I like Y’, anyway.

Well . . . see, that’s just it. You do have to stop and analyze what led you to not like it. See, in the case of the new Trait Mastery system? I don’t necessarily like it. If you want to make an argument about it which doesn’t begin and end with “it’s a pile of skritt”, then keep reading and figure out (quietly) your answer:

Why don’t you like it?

Keep asking yourself going down one layer at a time, slowly. Don’t leap ahead. This is how you get to the root of “Why I dislike this system” and can offer something better than “it sucks”.

Notably, a ton of people have done that in the thread. This is probably why ArenaNet devs popped in now and then to say they were reading and found it useful. The posts iterated exactly where the problems started to come in per person and painted a better picture than “fix it now!” could.

Anyone can “fix” a problem . . . but to fix a problem, that takes some time.

I can attempt to qualify my opinions as best I’m able, but that doesn’t change their nature.

Just a thought to consider! Some of us might not be trying to say ‘there is no problem’ quite as much as we might seem!

I’m on the other side of the issue – I think there is a problem, I just am not sure how deeply it goes. For the most part, this seems to be another textbook case (in my opinion of looking at this long and hard) of a system which was not given sufficient time to be shaken out of issues before hitting the live servers.

. . . and no, PTR wasn’t the answer this time. Giving the whole thing a good look over after the pieces were assembled is probably the more likely answer to solving what went wrong. A small list from personal experience.

- The Masteries unlocked from certain event participation were not always synced up properly to the tier of unlocked Masteries.
- The event participation failed to take into account a successful “defend” condition and required only a “capture” condition.
- It is improbable to wrangle people together in WvW enough to kill the Grub target without drawing the ire of others or being the “low hanging fruit” other servers might happen upon and take advantage of.
- The cost of unlocking a Mastery for one of the above events is likely to be a significant blow to the bank of a given “normal” player. As opposed to people who had been around for two years. As such the costs were not equally felt, when they could have been. (i.e. You could have used another currency, or another method instead of taking gold out from people who might not have a lot to their name.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

naiasonod.9265:

I probably come off like someone that equates ‘I don’t have that issue’ with ‘there is no issue’, though I tend to look at things without a driving belief that my opinion’s anything other than that – an opinion. I don’t know about anyone else, though it pops to mind to observe that I might not be alone in that.

Opinions are rooted in something, and that’s what needs to be looked at first when you want to defend that position. If I believe something sucks, I want to at least bore down a level and figure out why I think that.

Some of us (me, at least) don’t always feel qualified to argue a point from a position of authority we simply don’t have. I know I hate trying to make a strong logical argument from a position of ‘I don’t like X’ and ‘I like Y’, anyway.

Well . . . see, that’s just it. You do have to stop and analyze what led you to not like it. See, in the case of the new Trait Mastery system? I don’t necessarily like it. If you want to make an argument about it which doesn’t begin and end with “it’s a pile of skritt”, then keep reading and figure out (quietly) your answer:

Why don’t you like it?

Keep asking yourself going down one layer at a time, slowly. Don’t leap ahead. This is how you get to the root of “Why I dislike this system” and can offer something better than “it sucks”.

Notably, a ton of people have done that in the thread. This is probably why ArenaNet devs popped in now and then to say they were reading and found it useful. The posts iterated exactly where the problems started to come in per person and painted a better picture than “fix it now!” could.

Anyone can “fix” a problem . . . but to fix a problem, that takes some time.

I can attempt to qualify my opinions as best I’m able, but that doesn’t change their nature.

Just a thought to consider! Some of us might not be trying to say ‘there is no problem’ quite as much as we might seem!

I’m on the other side of the issue – I think there is a problem, I just am not sure how deeply it goes. For the most part, this seems to be another textbook case (in my opinion of looking at this long and hard) of a system which was not given sufficient time to be shaken out of issues before hitting the live servers.

. . . and no, PTR wasn’t the answer this time. Giving the whole thing a good look over after the pieces were assembled is probably the more likely answer to solving what went wrong. A small list from personal experience.

- The Masteries unlocked from certain event participation were not always synced up properly to the tier of unlocked Masteries.
- The event participation failed to take into account a successful “defend” condition and required only a “capture” condition.
- It is improbable to wrangle people together in WvW enough to kill the Grub target without drawing the ire of others or being the “low hanging fruit” other servers might happen upon and take advantage of.
- The cost of unlocking a Mastery for one of the above events is likely to be a significant blow to the bank of a given “normal” player. As opposed to people who had been around for two years. As such the costs were not equally felt, when they could have been. (i.e. You could have used another currency, or another method instead of taking gold out from people who might not have a lot to their name.)

Well said indeed!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

naiasonod.9265:

I probably come off like someone that equates ‘I don’t have that issue’ with ‘there is no issue’, though I tend to look at things without a driving belief that my opinion’s anything other than that – an opinion. I don’t know about anyone else, though it pops to mind to observe that I might not be alone in that.

Opinions are rooted in something, and that’s what needs to be looked at first when you want to defend that position. If I believe something sucks, I want to at least bore down a level and figure out why I think that.

Personally speaking, I rarely have any difficulty knowing why I like or dislike something. Those reasons are all too rarely of any objective relevance to anything, and often make for very poor positional foundations to construct arguments from.

So, this typically leaves me with the option of feeling like an intellectual for attempting to qualify my opinion as somehow being of greater authority or, indeed, objective relevance than it could ever possibly have…orrrrrr saying things like ‘I don’t really have a problem with this, though that other thing has really bothered me and makes me feel extremely frustrated’.

Elaborating on exactly why I don’t have a problem with X and exactly why Z ticks me right off is sometimes worthwhile. Other times, I like something because it has a nifty color, or dislike something because I personally find it tedious, inconveniencing and like it was specifically designed to waste time.

Sometimes I say such things; sometimes, I don’t bother.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well . . . see, that’s just it. You do have to stop and analyze what led you to not like it. See, in the case of the new Trait Mastery system? I don’t necessarily like it. If you want to make an argument about it which doesn’t begin and end with “it’s a pile of skritt”, then keep reading and figure out (quietly) your answer:

Why don’t you like it?

Keep asking yourself going down one layer at a time, slowly. Don’t leap ahead. This is how you get to the root of “Why I dislike this system” and can offer something better than “it sucks”.

Notably, a ton of people have done that in the thread. This is probably why ArenaNet devs popped in now and then to say they were reading and found it useful. The posts iterated exactly where the problems started to come in per person and painted a better picture than “fix it now!” could.

Anyone can “fix” a problem . . . but to fix a problem, that takes some time.

Good advice for those that are neither used to thinking and feel fear when asked to do it often, right there. I do not personally have any difficulty intuiting my own motives and sifting from them rather exacting why’s, wherefores and nuanced details respective to my feelings on much, however.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m on the other side of the issue – I think there is a problem, I just am not sure how deeply it goes. For the most part, this seems to be another textbook case (in my opinion of looking at this long and hard) of a system which was not given sufficient time to be shaken out of issues before hitting the live servers.

~snipped stuff went here~

Your conclusion and mine are identical then, and likely arrived at by similar means, even though I suspect we use different terms and have radically different ‘internal languages’ that we relate and correlate concepts into.

I don’t like the current trait system for myriad reasons, not least of which being that it feels poorly thought-out, looks to me like it was designed by somebody that did not play and never intended to try to play this game and, somehow, still got the system pushed through to live servers despite what seem to me to be its obviously mis-shapen, inconceivably bad structuring.

The foundational concept isn’t bad per the evidenced implication, being to tie terms of engagement and acquisition (i.e: advancement) to the system, though their implementation of it is utterly bizarre in its extremity, very poorly arranged in the requirements specific to many individual traits and nothing even remotely like anything I might have imagined they’d make, let alone might make myself were it my task to do so, before this was released.

I have no real idea what the realities of Anet’s situations or circumstances are, however. It isn’t for me to know, they’ll never tell me even if I ask nicely and I very probably wouldn’t know how to do most of their jobs even if I were put in charge of most of their things for a day.

Ergo, I do not feel very well positioned to tell them how to fix it. If I feel sufficiently motivated to share some idea, I occasionally do so, though most often, I only feel intellectually qualified to tell them ‘Nope, don’t like that’ and ‘Yep, do like this’.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

For the most part, this seems to be another textbook case (in my opinion of looking at this long and hard) of a system which was not given sufficient time to be shaken out of issues before hitting the live servers.

. . . and no, PTR wasn’t the answer this time. Giving the whole thing a good look over after the pieces were assembled is probably the more likely answer to solving what went wrong.

Honestly, I think the primary problems stem from the new trait unlock system not being thought through enough to begin with. Start with the basic idea – we’re going to take a key part of the character-building process and put it behind a bunch of individual unlocks – so now we have to decide, what’s a reasonable amount of work per unlock? How much work should an average player have to do to unlock enough traits to make a build? How much work to unlock them all? We’re pushing back the levels at which players can use these things – do we want the average person to naturally have unlocked at least a couple of traits by the time they can slot their first one? If a player decides to unlock every single adept trait, what’s an appropriate level for them to be able to complete that? How do we feel about the scenario of a player leveling up, receiving an open trait slot, and having nothing to put in it?

I really feel like the above questions weren’t given very much weight in the initial design process, and instead they focused on their current obsession with pushing players to experience areas of the game outside their comfort zone, which is how we got some of the now-fixed absurdities like Mount Maelstrom map completion for an adept trait and the still-unfixed absurdities like the Grub. In fact, I would not be at all surprised if that design process included a list of Things Players Aren’t Doing Much with instructions to make at least some of them trait unlock tasks so players would stop ignoring them.

naiasonod.9265:

Good advice for those that are neither used to thinking and feel fear when asked to do it often, right there. I do not personally have any difficulty intuiting my own motives and sifting from them rather exacting why’s, wherefores and nuanced details respective to my feelings on much, however.

It’s actually a somewhat tweaked version of a known QA process I was asked to study once.

. . . it also hearkens back to a lot of amateur engineering study back in early college, which shaped a lot of the way I think about things. Right up to including the KISS standard of designing things.

The New Traits system did not satisfy KISS.

I don’t like the current trait system for myriad reasons, not least of which being that it feels poorly thought-out, looks to me like it was designed by somebody that did not play and never intended to try to play this game and, somehow, still got the system pushed through to live servers despite what seem to me to be its obviously mis-shapen, inconceivably bad structuring.

Mmmm, I think more it seemed to be designed in a meeting room somewhere with a list of what they wanted to do, five pots of coffee, and orders to get something on paper before the doors would be unlocked.

Ergo, I do not feel very well positioned to tell them how to fix it. If I feel sufficiently motivated to share some idea, I occasionally do so, though most often, I only feel intellectually qualified to tell them ‘Nope, don’t like that’ and ‘Yep, do like this’.

Eh, I just share what I think would be a good idea. When I’m motivated to do so. Right now, the current project was from someone challenging me to rewrite the Personal Story and LS1 so that it “didn’t suck”. That’s taking a while, mostly due to work eating a lot of free time.

I’m glad this is finally happening. I made a post when the game came out on how boring and uninspired the current system looked. Also annoyed that we can’t pick out minor traits although I doubt that will change for reasons.

Maybe this time they can recreate it in an aesthetically pleasing and more interesting way.

Hopefully we get to try this out on the Beta server before the April Feature patch. Would really like to have this fixed before a year has passed

I am very curious, though not optimistic that I will like what they will do. Preferred the original system.

The whole scheme is something I want to know about, the integrated traits/skills/specializations/masteries system that seem to be coming.

In truth I am expecting a “new-new” system that will be just as much of turn off as the current one is. Saddens me as I really loved the game and now just hold on to a tiny hope that, this time, they do something I enjoy.

Just as I will not make a new character under the current system, I would also not want to pursue a “specialization” this way.

Specializations really sound cool to me. I do not care about maguuma jungle etc, but specializations and a new class are very appealing. However, with anything resembling the current trait system I have no interest at all.

I’d get the xpac just for specializations and a new class, if I find the “new-new” systems tolerable.

I’m pretty underwhelmed with the lack of information since the announcement of HoT. The lack of any response to what I feel are some pretty reasonable questions about the “new-new” trait system is also not inspiring a great deal of confidence in me. But, as I said about twenty pages ago, I’ll believe in an improved trait system when it’s in game, and not a moment sooner.

Hopefully their improved trait system will be better then it is now. But lets face it, anything other then the old trait system will probably be a fail. Hope I’m wrong here!

runeblade.7514:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Quit trolling,

I enjoy the current trait system, so that makes me a troll. Take your hostility and non-discussion somewhere else.

No you are trolling because of the belittling of others opinions and the flat out lies that you keep posting. Opinions are one thing and its fine and dandy if you like the new system but don’t act like there is not any issues when the devs have come out them selves and said there is.

Good job snipping just the quit trolling and leaving everything else out that is not "non-discussion. That post was probably the most hypocritical post I have seen on these forums. Again I say, good job.

Anet: Instead of having us re-watch something that barely informs, can we get a news post regarding more details about upcoming features (as you said you would do) and possible and more related to this thread, more info on this new trait system and what we can come to expect from it. Also, let us know if we are going to see it implemented before the release of HoT or if you are only rolling it during the proposed Beta.

Daggos Skelito.2910:

Hopefully their improved trait system will be better then it is now. But lets face it, anything other then the old trait system will probably be a fail. Hope I’m wrong here!

I feel like you do. What we have now, was touted as an improvement…so, the simple fact that the current system will be changed does not truly encourage me. Glad to hear it will be changed, but with no information yet I feel very dubious.

Bernie.8674:

runeblade.7514:

Daggos Skelito.2910:

runeblade.7514:

If it was there when launched, no one would complain.

In fact, this was a hyped up feature when it was announced. Everybody wanted it before it was implemented.

You are right about no one would be complaining if it was at launch. No one would be playing! Read what the new players are saying.

I’m thinking everyone wanted elite SKILL hunting like GW1 had it. Now that was fun!

You think Elite skill hunting is fun but you don’t think Trait hunting is fun. Okay.

… like GW1 had it.

That’s the key. Unlocking skills by capturing them from bosses that you could spawn on your own time with a group of heroes and/or henchmen was fun. Unlocking traits through events that spawn on a set schedule, often hours between spawns, is not so much fun. The fact that you often need a full group of players to stand a chance against these bosses is also not so fun. On top of that, bear in mind that in GW1 you could unlock each skill through PvP or PvE. The traits in GW2 are unlocked through only one means (i.e. WvW or PvE), or they are purchased at prohibitive prices.

The difference is not what you are trying to unlock. Its the environment you are doing it in.

The difference is that the PvE in GW1 was fun – even repeatably fun.

They have specifically said that the new-new system will be “simplified.” Given that and the enormous amount of detailed criticism they have heard on the current system, I feel there’s an excellent chance that the we will see real improvement.

The current system was touted as an improvement, yes, but they made the mistake of only looking at the perspective of a new player running their first character. Also, it came from CDI ideas about horizontal progression that the community never intended to be applied to pre-existing abilities.

Quite frankly, I’m sure their ears are still ringing from the heavy ear-boxing we’ve given them over all this. By this point, avoiding those mistakes should practically be a Pavlovian response.

Gulesave.5073:

They have specifically said that the new-new system will be “simplified.” Given that and the enormous amount of detailed criticism they have heard on the current system, I feel there’s an excellent chance that the we will see real improvement.

The current system was touted as an improvement, yes, but they made the mistake of only looking at the perspective of a new player running their first character. Also, it came from CDI ideas about horizontal progression that the community never intended to be applied to pre-existing abilities.

Quite frankly, I’m sure their ears are still ringing from the heavy ear-boxing we’ve given them over all this. By this point, avoiding those mistakes should practically be a Pavlovian response.

Should be, but will it blend? I’m just happy they acknowledge the problem. I’d their track record ‘fixing™’ things bears out, I fully expect to wind to having to craft time gated crystals in copious quantity to unlock individual traits at the end if every fractal path, one trait per week, one trait per fractal level.

It works make so many get horribly uncomfortable! Forced into ascended and AR farming in order to get more and more traits, payers would have so much to do! The school of Anet brilliance would be complete!

Because you don’t need traits in any other content except spvp where we how you’ll just stay and make it look like that’s what you’re here for.

It isn’t a grind is we decide you don’t need it! Traits aren’t necessary to do dungeons or wvw or world boss events or even fractals! WOooOOO!

This sort of ’ elegant problem solving’ is their latest modus operandi. They seem to think they kill so many birds with one stone that in sure they believe their own hype.

Those aren’t birds though. Those are the hopes and dreams of a player base and you’ve gone stark raving mad, Anet. Problems are much harder to resolve than player dreams are too destroy.

You’ve done a smashingly good job of destroying any allure that ever existed for anyone sane in making alts. You’ve

You’ve done a frightfully good job of making the leveling process extra inane for anyone with better than the intellect of a fencepost.

You’ve done a wonderful job of taking a bad narrative that was at least coherent and ‘fixing™’ it by removing that pesty coherence from the closing chapters (while making an already bad narrative even worse for the mangling).

Anet, I have great faith in that you will staunchly believe that you will be fixing things going forward.

Your release date for HoT I be my personal warning cue to duck, however. Your magnum opus of ‘fixing™’ has yet to be seen.

I’ll hope for rain but expect a total poo storm. You’ll pardon me keeping my umbrella handy and preferring this lovely seat conveniently next to a door I can dive out of in the all too likely event that you ‘fix™’ everything, including traits, like you’ve been fixing everything else for the past year.

@ naiasonod – sometimes, on certain days, you are my hero.

I try so very hard to be careful to make all my criticisms as constructive as possible. But there are times when I simply have to use my delete key/cancel.

Pointing out the three things I feel so strongly about (traits, story, dumbing-down experiences), the tangible fear I have for a worse “solution” than the problems we have now. the putting into words how valuable time really is…. Thank you.
For saying what I wanted to and for putting it in such a way as to make me laugh and sigh at the same time. /bow

@Naiasonod : I just… wow… I have tears… tears… +1000

OK, so I have to share this because its fairly relevant here. This is a warrior I just recently got to level 80 by simply playing the game/PS. I am currently sitting on about 5 gold in hand, with I think maybe another 8 in the TP waiting for pick-up and maybe about 50 more gold in my “rainy day” guild bank. Bear in mind that she still doesn’t have any exotic accessories or armor (only rare or masterwork) ONE level 80 exotic weapon (thanks to WvW reward tickets) and I’m fairly certain she still has at least 2 more skills to get if she was to be considered "complete on that front. Note in the image that one of the major trait slots is empty. Not because I couldn’t decide what to put in there, but because I don’t have any of them unlocked for that slot and at least wanted the minor for that line.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/109536577180521040712/albums/5970674476312664465/6111629688744166466?pid=6111629688744166466&oid=109536577180521040712

I don’t know if they’ve mentioned any specifics on trait changes, and excuse my ignorance as I haven’t played since…not long after launch. I’m just wondering if after whatever changes they plan on implementing, that you’ll still have to wait 30 levels before you can even start getting traits? I’ve thought about returning to the game, but that really kills my enthusiasm that for so long during the leveling process you’re not building your character in that way.

Zaalg.3217:

I don’t know if they’ve mentioned any specifics on trait changes, and excuse my ignorance as I haven’t played since…not long after launch. I’m just wondering if after whatever changes they plan on implementing, that you’ll still have to wait 30 levels before you can even start getting traits? I’ve thought about returning to the game, but that really kills my enthusiasm that for so long during the leveling process you’re not building your character in that way.

I really hope too, even if I already set all my chars to 80s. This trait unlocking system is just too annoying. You get 6 trait points from 72 to 80 which is almost half of the total. They should distribuate the trait points linearly, getting the first at level 15 and 1 by every 5 level, also unlocking Master line on level 40 and grand master on lvl 60. In this way would be a lot more fun to level up.

Gulesave.5073:

The current system was touted as an improvement, yes, but they made the mistake of only looking at the perspective of a new player running their first character. Also, it came from CDI ideas about horizontal progression that the community never intended to be applied to pre-existing abilities.

I still don’t understand how the current system would be considered a good idea, even from that perspective. I played GW1 extensively from beta until 2009, but I was pretty late to the game for GW2 and didn’t come in until after the new traits were added. I still thought it was a mess. Here was my experience as a brand new player to GW2:

• I bought a trait book from a vendor for a couple of gold, only to discover that those trait books weren’t even useful for anything anymore. The game still let me buy and consume it, but imagine my surprise when I opened my trait panel only to find the next tier still locked.
• After looking on the wiki (because I could find nothing in-game explaining how traits work) I discovered that trait tiers automatically unlock.
• I couldn’t figure out how to unlock individual traits. I finally happened to glance at the tooltip dialog that popped up as my cursor was hovering past the telescope.
• Most of the level 30 traits involved areas that were nowhere near the places my story had taken me.
• I didn’t even know how to fulfill most of those unlock conditions. I had no clue as to where the ogre camp was until I joined a guild mate in WvW.
• I didn’t even need traits to level to 80. I have several level 80 characters now. Some of them got there with only 2-3 traits unlocked. My wife, who started playing a couple of months ago, levelled her character without any traits whatsoever.

For these reasons I seriously doubt they even considered the trait system from that perspective. Honestly, I have no idea how they came up with this. Historically ArenaNet’s systems have been well-designed and thoughtful. Every time they made a change in the pre-EotN days I could understand and agree with their reasoning. I don’t know what happened to change that. After hearing their ideas for the new mastery system and their intent to make traits consistent with it, I’m hopeful we’ll see this system fixed soon.

I had to explain to a new player last night what traits even were, as he said, and I quote ‘it looked like something really hard and expensive to do. I didn’t know I could click on the telescope things and be shown where to go either’.

He’s a level 80 elementalist with 1 whole trait that he got accidentally and didn’t even realize it. Having gotten the impression that traits were some sort of endgame thing you weren’t supposed to even worry about until max level, he’d leveled with none and, attempting to see what that was about, didn’t inherently realize that you can click on the telescopes and be shown anything.

‘Why would I click on a telescope? Does it make the text bigger?’

After I explained to him how traits work, he briefly got rather excited at the prospect of being able to customize his character so much.

Then he went reading through all the things he would have to do to unlock traits.

‘I have to go to all these places and do all these things, yeah? Can I do this one that says I need to do this dungeon by myself?’

No lad, you can’t. In fact, few enough of those traits are those you’ll be very well able to go and do on your own time or at your own pace. Or at all for those hinged on group events next to nobody cares to bother showing up for.

‘I only have 6 gold and I’ve got a lot of skills left to unlock. If I buy my traits, isn’t that going to be really expensive really fast? How do I get more skill points fast?’

I told him to go farm EotM and join a zerg. He didn’t know about EotM and even after being told about it, didn’t sound eager to go do ‘a pvp thing’ for anything at all.

So I took him to EotM and showed him how to get on with that. He seemed a bit more interested after seeing what it was, though who knows if he’ll actually take any interest in it.

So, yep. I spent two hours working with this guy to try getting him to a decent level fo knowledge on how to do things.

He arrived at the conclusion that ‘this was kind’ve stupid’ all on his own about traits, after finding out that he’d need to do a lot of pvp things to unlock a good many of them, as well as dungeons.

When I parted ways with him, he did not seem especially eager or excited by the prospects before him. I even told him that HoT might see improvements coming down the pipe on that front. He was, somehow, unmoved.

Call it another epic fail for the current trait system? Why yes. I think I shall.