Guild Wars 2

ASCENDED WEAPONS (and equipment in general) ALONE DO NOT MAKE A GEAR TREADMILL!!!

Sorry for all caps, but I’ve had it with this gear treadmill talk BS.

It is one single step higher than what they had at launch. ONE. And one that they previously stated they always intended on having. One step does not make a treadmill. The entire way the game works with it’s downscaling doesn’t even lend itself to a gear treadmill type of thing.

Now, if every 6 months they added a new tier of equipment that made the previous one basically obsolete, then yes, that’s a treadmill.

Beginning to add one step (that they intended on) about 6 months in, and then not even having the entire gear set of it available a year after launch (and let’s face it, it will probably be near the end of the year when ascended armors come out) IS NOT A TREADMILL!

Heck, ascended (neither are exotics really) isn’t even important if you can play the game decently. All it will do is make it so more people can try and stumble through places like Arah that are too daunting for mediocre players.

It’s not that big of a deal guys.

The only thing worth complaining about ascended weapons are how their coloration can give your opponents in PvP a hint on what kind of build you’re running.

I wish you better luck with your thread on this than I had on mine. lol

I agree with you.

Semantics.

Blah, blah, blah, grindy, boring, time gated, time sink.

Better?

Please provide a quote that says Ascended was always intended since launch. Because here is a quote that proves you wrong.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Ascended gear was designed to sit between Exotic and Legendary items. “It was not specifically designed before launch,”

So no, it was never intended on as you so claim. It was a decision made to appease traditional MMO players that needed a treadmill.

Zindrix.1750:

Semantics.

Blah, blah, blah, grindy, boring, time gated, time sink.

Better?

A little, yeah. I disagree a bit with the grindy portion, but yes, crafting ascended is time gated, and a little bit of a time sink. But IMO, if you really want that tiny bit more stats that aren’t needed for anything, then putting up with the little bit of time gated-ness isn’t an issue.

I have another rant on everyone saying this game is a massive grind, but I’m really not getting into it tonight.

But most of the complaints about the ‘gear treadmill’ that I see is how ascended is terrible for the game. It’s going to ruin it. Everything is going to be the worst now. But I don’t see how it will change anything. It’s not going to unbalance anything in PvP. It’s not going to heavilly effect WvW (because the same amount of people on most servers will be at about the same point in making them, and because a zerg trumps any small stat bonus someone has). It will make it so that if you go through the effort, you can kill things a little bit more quickly in PvE, and maybe survive one more hit… maybe.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Please provide a quote that says Ascended was always intended since launch. Because here is a quote that proves you wrong.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Ascended gear was designed to sit between Exotic and Legendary items. “It was not specifically designed before launch,”

So no, it was never intended on as you so claim. It was a decision made to appease traditional MMO players that needed a treadmill.

Ok, I was a little to specific in what I said. It was my interpretation of those quotes in that article.

They state that the stat progression was planned before launch. The exact arrival of ascended may not have been, at least not in that way at that time, but the existence of something like it at some point, yes, they planned to do that.

Its a textbook definition of gear treadmill.

MikaHR.1978:

Its a textbook definition of gear treadmill.

And what is the textbook definition of a gear treadmill?

To me, a gear treadmill makes previous tiers obsolete. Ascended does not. It’s not needed, if you want the small boost, good for you, go get it. But it’s not required for anything (with the one small exception of really really high level fractals, a piece of content that give you no new experience or benefit at high levels compared to mid levels other than personal bragging rights).

Piecekeeper.4361:

MikaHR.1978:

Its a textbook definition of gear treadmill.

And what is the textbook definition of a gear treadmill?

To me, a gear treadmill makes previous tiers obsolete. Ascended does not. It’s not needed, if you want the small boost, good for you, go get it. But it’s not required for anything (with the one small exception of really really high level fractals, a piece of content that give you no new experience or benefit at high levels compared to mid levels other than personal bragging rights).

So in another words its a textbook definition of gear treadmill rofl

by your skewed definiton no game ever had a gear treadmill since latest gear was only required in latest raid and you could do everything else without it.

No bro.

MikaHR.1978:

Its a textbook definition of gear treadmill.

Oh? Which textbook did you get this out of? I ask because I haven’t read many text-books that mention gear treadmill.

MikaHR.1978:

Piecekeeper.4361:

MikaHR.1978:

Its a textbook definition of gear treadmill.

And what is the textbook definition of a gear treadmill?

To me, a gear treadmill makes previous tiers obsolete. Ascended does not. It’s not needed, if you want the small boost, good for you, go get it. But it’s not required for anything (with the one small exception of really really high level fractals, a piece of content that give you no new experience or benefit at high levels compared to mid levels other than personal bragging rights).

So in another words its a textbook definition of gear treadmill rofl

by your skewed definiton no game ever had a gear treadmill since latest gear was only required in latest raid and you could do everything else without it.

No bro.

No, that’s not what I’m saying.
In fact, I’m saying that as far as fractals are concerned, you can play it without any AR or ascended to the point of being able to get anything you want out of it content-wise. Sure, you can use AR and ascended to get a higher little number on what level you are doing it on, but it doesn’t prevent you from seeing the content, experiencing it’s mechanics, seeing the story or what have you. Nothing is blocked by not having ascended. It is not a gear treadmill. And as I previously stated, my biggest reason for saying it’s not a gear treadmill is because it is just ONE little step. A treadmill is never ending and forces you to keep getting new tiers to be able to experience the game.

Now, if 6 months from now a new tier of equipment pops up, I’ll concede my point. But where we are now? No, not a treadmill.

Eh…. head hurts with all this treadmill talk in multiple threads…

Honestly, it’s a slippery slope. On one side, it can be considered a textbook treadmill. On another, it’s not.

As a textbook treadmill, when the rest of Ascended gear is introduced, it will make Exotics obsolete. The stat increase will be high enough to cause a noticeable difference. Currently, it causes a minor difference. But once a full set of gear is released, it will be better than Exotics by far. The reason why this is textbook treadmill, is because of PvP. Sure, in PvE, you can do anything in Masterwork gear (except for high level Fractals). But in PvP, it is always a case of being BiS. There is no way around it. PvP is competition. Thus making it a gear treadmill.

But on the other end, it’s not really a textbook treadmill. Because of PvE like explained above. At least until Agony resistance becomes global, then it will become required to have Ascended gear. Making it a gear treadmill. Although Anet said that Agony resistance will stay in Fractals only, they have said a lot of things that they have changed their minds on. This is no different. Hate to sound like a downer, but you can’t believe anything they tell you.

So right now, as a PvP player, this is the start of a treadmill. But as a PvE player, currently, this is a very minor optional treadmill. They’ve already stated that they plan on adding a “shallow power creep” to the game. This is just the start.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Eh…. head hurts with all this treadmill talk in multiple threads…

Honestly, it’s a slippery slope. On one side, it can be considered a textbook treadmill. On another, it’s not.

As a textbook treadmill, when the rest of Ascended gear is introduced, it will make Exotics obsolete. The stat increase will be high enough to cause a noticeable difference. Currently, it causes a minor difference. But once a full set of gear is released, it will be better than Exotics by far. The reason why this is textbook treadmill, is because of PvP. Sure, in PvE, you can do anything in Masterwork gear (except for high level Fractals). But in PvP, it is always a case of being BiS. There is no way around it. PvP is competition. Thus making it a gear treadmill.

But on the other end, it’s not really a textbook treadmill. Because of PvE like explained above. At least until Agony resistance becomes global, then it will become required to have Ascended gear. Making it a gear treadmill. Although Anet said that Agony resistance will stay in Fractals only, they have said a lot of things that they have changed their minds on. This is no different. Hate to sound like a downer, but you can’t believe anything they tell you.

So right now, as a PvP player, this is the start of a treadmill. But as a PvE player, currently, this is a very minor optional treadmill. They’ve already stated that they plan on adding a “shallow power creep” to the game. This is just the start.

I don’t disagree that it’s a slippery slope, and you’re right, they DID talk about how they are going to have a “shallow power creep”. I don’t know if that’s going to be good or bad or neutral.

But all of the gear treadmill talk at this point in it all just feels alarmist and over-exaggerated. It’s like listening to conspiracy nutballs, or watching FOX News. A complex and mostly benign issue being blown up to unrealistic proportions.

It might be only one step now, but usually the first step is followed by the second step.

There just is no point to add only one new tier. Those who did not want gear progression at all hate it, and it is not enough for those who want it.

There will be Ascended tier 2 next year.

Ameepa.6793:

It might be only one step now, but usually the first step is followed by the second step.

There just is no point to add only one new tier. Those who did not want gear progression at all hate it, and it is not enough for those who want it.

There will be Ascended tier 2 next year.

There will be cralpoad of infusion tiers too to be grinded over and over again, its a long way from “fine” to “ascended”.

This is what you might expect:

ascended weapons
masterwork infusions
ascended amor
rare infusions
ascended sigils
exotic infusions
ascended runes
ascended infusions

level cap raise that renders all of the above obsolete.

Welcome to Grind Wars 2! We have gearflation! And grind!

and just like in Vayne´s thread the whole “defense” (which, quite frankly, I don´t think is necessary personally) you have is sophism.

Algreg.3629:

and just like in Vayne´s thread the whole “defense” (which, quite frankly, I don´t think is necessary personally) you have is sophism.

Yup, its typical PR language:

How do you make something bad sound better – call it something else. Invent anything really or stupid reason will do.

Its typical gear treadmill no different than any other game similar game out there with exception that almost any other game does it better and with less grind.

Ignorance is not fooling anyone really.

MikaHR.1978:

There will be cralpoad of infusion tiers too to be grinded over and over again, its a long way from “fine” to “ascended”.

This is what you might expect:

ascended weapons
masterwork infusions
ascended amor
rare infusions
ascended sigils
exotic infusions
ascended runes
ascended infusions

level cap raise that renders all of the above obsolete.

Welcome to Grind Wars 2! We have gearflation! And grind!

O nice do u really thing they will go that far with infusions. I can say infusions are kind of lacking atm and need a change thats why i havent put any in my stuff yet but i dont think it will go that far at all. U see anet is doing something about magic find cuz its useless and if infusions are also usless they will find some reason to change them.

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

and just like in Vayne´s thread the whole “defense” (which, quite frankly, I don´t think is necessary personally) you have is sophism.

Yup, its typical PR language:

How do you make something bad sound better – call it something else. Invent anything really or stupid reason will do.

Its typical gear treadmill no different than any other game similar game out there with exception that almost any other game does it better and with less grind.

Ignorance is not fooling anyone really.

Can you give a example of a game without gear progression? (Except for Gw1)

SpyderArachnid.5619:

,

Competive pvp? Spvp got amulets, everyone are on par with gear there.

So i guess u talking about wvw? Well im sorry but its wasnt meant to be balanced ever around 1v1, wvw is made for group of players. Also ask urself how a upscaled guy in blues feels when u kill him, or someone that just hitted 80 and running in green/rares.

Really people, stop trolling about competive pvp in wvw, its makes u look silly.

Piecekeeper.4361:

ASCENDED WEAPONS (and equipment in general) ALONE DO NOT MAKE A GEAR TREADMILL!!!

Sorry for all caps, but I’ve had it with this gear treadmill talk BS.

It is one single step higher than what they had at launch. ONE. And one that they previously stated they always intended on having. One step does not make a treadmill. The entire way the game works with it’s downscaling doesn’t even lend itself to a gear treadmill type of thing.

Now, if every 6 months they added a new tier of equipment that made the previous one basically obsolete, then yes, that’s a treadmill.

Beginning to add one step (that they intended on) about 6 months in, and then not even having the entire gear set of it available a year after launch (and let’s face it, it will probably be near the end of the year when ascended armors come out) IS NOT A TREADMILL!

Heck, ascended (neither are exotics really) isn’t even important if you can play the game decently. All it will do is make it so more people can try and stumble through places like Arah that are too daunting for mediocre players.

It’s not that big of a deal guys.

The only thing worth complaining about ascended weapons are how their coloration can give your opponents in PvP a hint on what kind of build you’re running.

Quoted for the Truth… amen brother

Look at WoW or SW:TOR, there you have real gear treadmills.

In about 10 months that I played SW:TOR there where about 3 or 4 new tiers that made the old gear almost obsolete.

The “gear treadmill” in GW2 is so slow (first backs and rings, then accessoires, now weapons) that even I (being a casual player) have managed to get everything I need.

+1 to the OP

agreed… +1 to you and the OP lol

MikaHR.1978:

Algreg.3629:

and just like in Vayne´s thread the whole “defense” (which, quite frankly, I don´t think is necessary personally) you have is sophism.

Yup, its typical PR language:

How do you make something bad sound better – call it something else. Invent anything really or stupid reason will do.

Its typical gear treadmill no different than any other game similar game out there with exception that almost any other game does it better and with less grind.

Ignorance is not fooling anyone really.

The best part about your posts is that every time you call someone else ignorant, you show your own more and more.

Stop calling people ignorant because they disagree with you. It not only weakens your arguments (which are weak enough to begin with) but prevents even people who might agree with you from sympathizing.

MMO’s have a difficult time keeping players interested after awhile. Gear grinds is not some new and innovative idea to keep people playing.

It’s cheap; cost effective and known to work. It keeps the hamsters running on the hamster wheel.

The problem is not ascended gear—at all. Ascended gear does not make a treadmill at all and that’s not what we are talking about. The problem is vertical progression.

VP can be described as an integer series 1,2,3,4,…n where each number represents an increase in the power level of the game, usually through stat inflation on gear, but it could be through infusions, potions, anything really that raises the power level of the game. VP can be understood from the words that make it up: Vertical, the power level increases, Progression, it continually increases over time. VP doesn’t progress by stopping. It’s purpose is to provide a sense of progression and motivate play, but it brings a lot of extra baggage and that’s why you see all these threads. Perhaps the heaviest piece of extra baggage is that, since we are talking about the power level of the game, the gear treadmill is not optional. This is obvious once you have the definition of VP understood. It should be self-evident upon reading this paragraph. And, VP is what they added to the game last November.

But, yeah, you are right. Ascended gear is not a treadmill, it’s simply a point on the ever ascending power curve. VP is what has created the treadmill. In fact, the major reward systems in the game are currently driven by VP. If you have any doubt visit your friendly local Laurel vendor and see what they have for sale. Laurels are the treadmill that they placed outside FotM.

Vertical progression is unsustainable. Nothing can grow steadily or infinitely. You’re going to hit a brick wall at some point and it’ll probably be mathematical.

Look at other MMOs; stat inflation, ability saturation and UI clutter.

These games are plagued with over saturation of everything. Their developers are talking about cutting fat and item squishing (stat deflation).

Vertical progression solves one problem and creates another.

The addition of a single tier alone does not a gear treadmill make, no. I will agree there. However; is can be argued that it sets the precedent for one, should it either be a) well received, or b) at least acceptably taken to by the players. After all if they (the players) are seemingly ‘ok’ (which a lot aren’t) with one now, why not one more in say..six months? And how about one more 6 months after that?

The issue lies with the fact that ‘loyal’ veterans do not want ‘more’ gear tiers, period. Additional, Anet has not stated definitely that they will not add more in the future. They’ve said they don’t want to, not that they wouldn’t. Verbal loopholes.

For those that don’t desire ever climbing stats, we need to stop this from happening now, before they get that silly idea in their heads.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Please provide a quote that says Ascended was always intended since launch. Because here is a quote that proves you wrong.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Ascended gear was designed to sit between Exotic and Legendary items. “It was not specifically designed before launch,”

So no, it was never intended on as you so claim. It was a decision made to appease traditional MMO players that needed a treadmill.

Adding a single set of gear does not make a treadmill….. stop spouting crap without even knowing what a gear treadmill is.

Namu.5712:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Please provide a quote that says Ascended was always intended since launch. Because here is a quote that proves you wrong.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Ascended gear was designed to sit between Exotic and Legendary items. “It was not specifically designed before launch,”

So no, it was never intended on as you so claim. It was a decision made to appease traditional MMO players that needed a treadmill.

Adding a single set of gear does not make a treadmill….. stop spouting crap without even knowing what a gear treadmill is.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with my response whatsoever. So please, stop “spouting crap” without reading first.

That quote you quoted, was about Ascended gear being intended before launch. It had nothing to do with a gear treadmill. Please learn to read before making random rude remarks. Thank you.

I think one of the biggest oversights people that complain about a “treadmill” are making is the fact that in treadmill based games each new tier obsoletes content behind it due to power creep. That’s the simplest way to determine a treadmill… will content become obsolete with the new tier and the means to access that tier? When a new raid/tier is introduced in WoW, for example, the old raids are left empty, barren… wasted closed off space that’s ignored. This will not be the case in GW2… nothing will be rendered obsolete. There is no treadmill.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Namu.5712:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Please provide a quote that says Ascended was always intended since launch. Because here is a quote that proves you wrong.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Ascended gear was designed to sit between Exotic and Legendary items. “It was not specifically designed before launch,”

So no, it was never intended on as you so claim. It was a decision made to appease traditional MMO players that needed a treadmill.

Adding a single set of gear does not make a treadmill….. stop spouting crap without even knowing what a gear treadmill is.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with my response whatsoever. So please, stop “spouting crap” without reading first.

That quote you quoted, was about Ascended gear being intended before launch. It had nothing to do with a gear treadmill. Please learn to read before making random rude remarks. Thank you.

Sorry quoted you instead of mikahr

VOLKON.1290:

I think one of the biggest oversights people that complain about a “treadmill” are making is the fact that in treadmill based games each new tier obsoletes content behind it due to power creep. That’s the simplest way to determine a treadmill… will content become obsolete with the new tier and the means to access that tier? When a new raid/tier is introduced in WoW, for example, the old raids are left empty, barren… wasted closed off space that’s ignored. This will not be the case in GW2… nothing will be rendered obsolete. There is no treadmill.

True, for PvE though. We still haven’t got a full set of Ascended yet either. When the rest of the gear arrives, that small stat advantage that everyone likes to talk about, will be a large stat advantage when people are decked out in an entire set of Ascended gear.

But content was designed around Exotics (or was it rares? I can’t remember). So Exotics will always be good enough to do anything (except for high level Fractals).

But in PvP, this gear will render Exotics obsolete. So while PvE will be unaffected (except when they decide to make Agony global), PvP will be feeling it.

Namu.5712:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Namu.5712:

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Please provide a quote that says Ascended was always intended since launch. Because here is a quote that proves you wrong.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

Ascended gear was designed to sit between Exotic and Legendary items. “It was not specifically designed before launch,”

So no, it was never intended on as you so claim. It was a decision made to appease traditional MMO players that needed a treadmill.

Adding a single set of gear does not make a treadmill….. stop spouting crap without even knowing what a gear treadmill is.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with my response whatsoever. So please, stop “spouting crap” without reading first.

That quote you quoted, was about Ascended gear being intended before launch. It had nothing to do with a gear treadmill. Please learn to read before making random rude remarks. Thank you.

Sorry quoted you instead of mikahr

Ah, my apologizes then for coming off rude. No harm no foul.

Simpliest way to determine treadmill in my eyes is the idea that the gear tiers are ENDLESS. There is no plateu of power, only another tier waiting to be introduced after you rinse the content designed for a lower tier alone.

At the minute it certainly isnt endless, anything after that is pure speculation and dependent on player attitude and demand.
After all, as we have established – it was due to player demand that ascended came in the first place.

Piecekeeper.4361:

ASCENDED WEAPONS (and equipment in general) ALONE DO NOT MAKE A GEAR TREADMILL!!!
Sorry for all caps, but I’ve had it with this gear treadmill talk BS.

Vayne.8563:

I wish you better luck with your thread on this than I had on mine. lol

I agree with you.

Its a playerbase divided. I don’t agree with either of you and don’t have the intention of changing your minds.
I do have the intention of posting my concerns and opinions here in the hopes some ANet employees would take it in as feedback. Its too late for Ascended, it isn’t too late for new tiers.
If we all bend over and accept it as you seem to be trying to convince people to do, they could very well add more and more tiers over time. If we state that this is where we want it to end and move onto cosmetic and more innovative ways to make an endgame, then maybe they will.
You may be tired of the ‘treadmill talk BS’, and on the other side maybe those of us on the other side of the argument are tired of reading threads that call our opinions BS.
I want more for GW2. I would like to see it stand above other MMO’s as a desirable place to be through innovation and things to draw new players into it.
Hiding behind the statement “we always intended it to be in game” is a loophole that can be applied to future tiers as well : “we always intended gradual increments in gear every year, sorry for the misunderstanding”.
Are you entitled to your opinions? Yes. Just as I am mine that this is the start of a treadmill.
I’m not trying to change your mind thakittens all going to be sunshine and rainbows. All of my posts are with the intention of feedback into Anet, not to convince you or anyone else what I believe.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

VOLKON.1290:

I think one of the biggest oversights people that complain about a “treadmill” are making is the fact that in treadmill based games each new tier obsoletes content behind it due to power creep. That’s the simplest way to determine a treadmill… will content become obsolete with the new tier and the means to access that tier? When a new raid/tier is introduced in WoW, for example, the old raids are left empty, barren… wasted closed off space that’s ignored. This will not be the case in GW2… nothing will be rendered obsolete. There is no treadmill.

True, for PvE though. We still haven’t got a full set of Ascended yet either. When the rest of the gear arrives, that small stat advantage that everyone likes to talk about, will be a large stat advantage when people are decked out in an entire set of Ascended gear.

But content was designed around Exotics (or was it rares? I can’t remember). So Exotics will always be good enough to do anything (except for high level Fractals).

But in PvP, this gear will render Exotics obsolete. So while PvE will be unaffected (except when they decide to make Agony global), PvP will be feeling it.

Nah, PvP will be fine. sPvP is still normalized, and any minor advantages gained from ascended can be offset with skill. Hey, one timely interrupt, dodge or other avoidance can negate the overall increase in damage potential. The effects will be minimal, and again, nothing will be made obsolete. No, not even exotics, even though many will have the long term goal of replacing them.

Has anyone considered that once the locusts or players that have enough resources to gear up in ascended quickly (time-gated ofc but quick-er than the average player), have done so; that the content will then become even easier.
Then come the threads about how ‘boring’ & ‘faceroll easy’ the PvE content is. We already have those complaint threads with exotic gear but I speculate there will be a lot more as ascended gear becomes more common.
At what point will Anet have to provide content to match full ascended gear? And at that time will the average player have been able to gear themselves?
As much as I don’t like this addition of gear, I still don’t subscribe to this being a treadmill. I wish they would hurry up and get Legendary armor in the game so we can just go ahead and get the grind over with. I personally don’t need artificial or imposed goals to enjoy a game. At least Legendary armor has been in the database since launch and Colin didn’t deny its inclusion.
EDIT: the last statement was assuming that Legendary = grind once and done