Guild Wars 2

As the title says. I don’t mind an occasional boss where stacking works. But its used all over the place, especially in dungeons.

And it’s a crying shame, really. It turns encounters that could be very exciting into brainless exercises.

The key is to do it without nerfing melee characters. Maybe make the characters more mobile, or causing its damage output to increase the more it stays in one spot with little movement, or higher regeneration, or something.

I want encounters where you have to think more. Yes, I can voluntarily “nerf” myself and do it the hard way, but unless I find a group willing to do likewise (highly unlikely), it simply isnt going to get this tactic to go away.

So, while I realize this message will go unanswered by the Devs (I dont resent them for it, I know they are hard at work, but still), please consider a way to discourage stacking without nerfing melee characters.

Just saying. Thanks.

Unfortunately, the combat system actually encourages stacking, or at the very least staying in a fairly tight formation while you move. Support skills tend to have short ranges.

give the AI the ability to react like human opponents and stacking will no longer work.

you might as well say please get rid of a legitimate military strategy because we are winning the war too easily.

you can play how you want, but what you want isn’t always the best way.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Stacking isn’t really anything to do with the mobs, most of the time. It’s so that party wide buffs (ie, might, fury, prot, aegis, etc) are given to everyone and it’s easy for pulls. It’s also one of the reason why people who camp range aren’t as appreciated in parties.

I mean, what would boss fights look like without stacking? Just fighting on the boss? That’s still stacking, just not in a niche little corner. Melee is clearly stronger than range in this game, so you would at least be within 300 range of the boss. DPS will still be damage per second, and ice bow 5 will still freeze the mob in a corner or out in the open. Stacking as a damage component is quite meaningless now with the FGS nerf. It’s just a centralized spot that people go to for buffs and pulls. If you’re worried about trivializing content, well, my friend, that’s nothing to do with stacking.

Morfedel.4165:

I don’t mind an occasional boss where stacking works

Sounds like its that you don’t mind stacking.

The problem isn’t stacking. Stacking is a viable and (sometimes) necessary TACTIC/STRATEGY that players use.

The problem is that there’s not enough content or new content to practice them in. Dungeons are so old and played through that stacking isn’t a strategy, most players that learn dungeons don’t even know why they stack, they just do it because everyone else does.

Anet just needs to add new content/dungeons for players to play. They used to add dungeons for Living World Season 1, and those were epic fun but alas they were all destroyed.

You shouldn’t ask them to get rid of Stacking (which is impossible, in GW2 and nearly every MMO/RPG out there). But be asking for more content/permanent content/end-game content.

Try fractals, they do not allow much stacking on Bosses.

Pro-tip for many of you, stacking is largely useless nowadays. There are many bosses you don’t need to stack in a corner for, it doesn’t improve anything.

Stacking was done in the past because of FGS from Ele, with that dead you can just stand on/near the boss and move freely.

Stacking will always remain useful for killing trash mobs though, until we get an AI update (which I believe is going to come with HoT).

Many players in LFG seem to be conditioned to stacking, but it’s incredibly pointless now. The best example for this is the Icebrood Wolf champion at the beginning of CoE, theres literally 0 reason to stack for it.

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Good luck sitting on that group finder for hours, already tried it.

I don’t like stacking, but unfortunately that’s the best way to deal with bosses, regardless of your preferences. The only thing to do is really fix this stacking mechanics somehow.

anabasis.7346:

If you are stacking you are voluntarily nerfing yourself.

not if the rest of the group requires it or get booted.

roachsrealm.9284:

give the AI the ability to react like human opponents and stacking will no longer work.

you might as well say please get rid of a legitimate military strategy because we are winning the war too easily.

you can play how you want, but what you want isn’t always the best way.

What I’m saying is its pretty dull/boring, but the vast majority of groups requires it anyway, so its almost impossible to get away from even when you DONT want to do it.

Furthermore, while I think overall GW2 is one of the best mmos around, this is a weakness not displayed by other mmos.

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

Battledoll.1803:

Try fractals, they do not allow much stacking on Bosses.

Thats true.

Rhomulos.2089:

Pro-tip for many of you, stacking is largely useless nowadays. There are many bosses you don’t need to stack in a corner for, it doesn’t improve anything.

Stacking was done in the past because of FGS from Ele, with that dead you can just stand on/near the boss and move freely.

Stacking will always remain useful for killing trash mobs though, until we get an AI update (which I believe is going to come with HoT).

Many players in LFG seem to be conditioned to stacking, but it’s incredibly pointless now. The best example for this is the Icebrood Wolf champion at the beginning of CoE, theres literally 0 reason to stack for it.

Hm, if thats a game wide AI improvement, that will be excellent.

You know, I’ll say this: sure, I can try and start a group and say no stacking. I might even find one.

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

So what do we do with this boss? Stand here, stack, pull him, and just hit some buttons til he dies. Next boss? Same thing, etc etc.

I love GW2, but this is one of my pet peeves. I’m trying to remember my old days with other mmos I havent played in literally years – or heck, maybe just GW1 – and the tougher battles for the most part required at least SOME mobility and SOME thought in your game play. With many of these encounters, its pretty much stack on and just cycle buttons without any thought on game play otherwise.

Of course this isn’t true of EVERY boss. And it is also reasonable to say there are obviously people who DO think stacking is fun, although I’d suspect that its more pressing the EASY button rather than anything else.

Example: Before stacking, Subject Alpha used to be a challenging fight. After stacking, he became trivial.

And many people ask, “stacking makes bosses playable, why get rid of it?” I respond with, “no, it makes said boss battles static, thoughtless, and unchallenging.”

And when one suggests “hey, lets not stack this dungeon,” further replies often say “wait, why do you want to handicap us?”

Maybe if they offered a second mode for dungeons, a hard mode that made stacking a more questionable choice, I’d be all for that. And honestly, its not that I want to ruin the fun of people who DO enjoy stacking.

It just… well, as I said, makes many fights static, predictable, and utterly routine. And since even people who dislike easy mode methods tend to go whats easiest rather than risk a possible dungeon run failure, well….

Many people on the forums complain because much of GW2 is too easy compared to the highest level content in other mmos. Honestly, wouldn’t you find dungeon runs, as an example, more enjoyable if it was more challenging?

Morfedel.4165:

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

I never said anything about it one way or another. I was poining out one of the many threads that bring up the same topic, as well as the general responses to such threads.

As for other MMOs and high level encounters, just this: This isn’t other MMOs. THIS. IS. GUILDWARS!!!!! (Sorry couldn’t resist :P)
In any event, the game mechanics at the most basic level allow for stacking. Some like it, other don’t. Some understand why/when stacking is better, others just do it because thats how they were taught.

Should Anet fundementally change one of the core tenants of the game because a few people don’t like stacking?
Or should those who don’t like stacking, understand that stacking isn’t needed, teach the community a “better” way?

Morfedel.4165:

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

Do you think it have anything to do with AI.

or is it just that other game require only tank to stand infront of mob, and healer dps hiding behind. Many class dont’ have cleave so there’s no benefit, long CC’s which break when mob get attack etc.

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

I never said anything about it one way or another. I was poining out one of the many threads that bring up the same topic, as well as the general responses to such threads.

As for other MMOs and high level encounters, just this: This isn’t other MMOs. THIS. IS. GUILDWARS!!!!! (Sorry couldn’t resist :P)
In any event, the game mechanics at the most basic level allow for stacking. Some like it, other don’t. Some understand why/when stacking is better, others just do it because thats how they were taught.

Should Anet fundementally change one of the core tenants of the game because a few people don’t like stacking?
Or should those who don’t like stacking, understand that stacking isn’t needed, teach the community a “better” way?

I’m not sure I’d say there were few. I’ve heard many people bemoan stacking… while doing it themselves on a daily basis. The impression I get is that many people dislike that its such a viable tactic, but STILL use it precisely BECAUSE its such a viable tactic.

Ah well.

imho the worst part of dungeons is trying to run through everything just to get to the boss. might as well do away with trash mobs altogether since no one fights them anyway <.<

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

laokoko.7403:

Morfedel.4165:

pdavis.8031:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Anet-please-stop-Stacking/page/6#post5051582

The most recent of many.

Short answer.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it.
Start your own LFG saying no stack, and kick anyone who does.

Thanks!

/thread

Spectacular! Why didnt I think of that ! rolls eyes

Seriously, look at other mmo high level encounters and then this stacking issue, and tell me you actually think this is a superior way to play a game.

Do you think it have anything to do with AI.

or is it just that other game require only tank to stand infront of mob, and healer dps hiding behind. Many class dont’ have cleave so there’s no benefit, long CC’s which break when mob get attack etc.

Maybe a bit of both. I do think the AI could be improved. Just watching the AI fighting mobs in HoT beta showed me things could have been different, as they DO appear to be improved in HoT. If my eyes didn’t deceive me.

bain of man.6857:

imho the worst part of dungeons is trying to run through everything just to get to the boss. might as well do away with trash mobs altogether since no one fights them anyway <.<

Well, there is that. In Arah, for instance, all the stealth racing through it… although in Arah even I have to admit fighting your way through that would extend the fights significantly longer. Whew, Arah is a long dungeon compared to the others, and fighting everything would be quite a bit longer….

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

Honestly, I think stacking is a way to exploit flawed AI, not a tactic per se. I’d bet if you talked to the developers they would say that they had never intended stacking to be a tactic to beat these guys.

Its faulty AI exploitation; which I lay at the feet of the developers, really, but still. Here is another example: I’ve become aware of a tactic used against Lupi to get him into the wall behind him, then lay a wall of reflection to get him to kill himself. They call it a tactic. I think its an exploit.

Now maybe you think that this is a reasonable exploit. that theres nothing wrong with it. Me? I think its a weak way to play. But I suppose as long as the developers arent going to protest it, not much that can be done.

(although honestly I think the real problem is developers would have to rework too much stuff to fix the issue, so they are leaving it alone for now)

You know, maybe I’m wrong, and I’m willing to be convinced. Comparing this to other mmos, do you really think that stacking was intended, that content beaten by stacking was intended to be so easily circumvented and trivialized?

Morfedel.4165:

You know, maybe I’m wrong, and I’m willing to be convinced. Comparing this to other mmos, do you really think that stacking was intended, that content beaten by stacking was intended to be so easily circumvented and trivialized?

nope, otherwise there wouldnt be a dodge button.

Morfedel:
So using an enemies strengths and weakness against it is an exploit?

In your Lupi example, you are using a legitemate character ability, doing what it designed to do against an enemy who is using a reflectable attack.
This is an exploit?
No it’s using the built in game mechanics in ways they are meant to be used, in situations where using them is valid.

An exploit would be if you lured Lupi into the wall, and because of a bug/glitch he was unable to hurt you, thus allowing you to AFK auto attack him until dead.

The first uses the game mechanics/abilities in unconventional ways, but not taking advantage of bug/glitches/faulty coding.
The latter abuses faulty codes/bugs/glitches to the players advantage.

IIRC there was a glitch/bug that was abused to get precursors or something. It was discovered and a mass ban took place. This is an exploit.

There is currently a setting in the game that causes you to be unable to move through your target while in combat. I don’t really understand the purpose of this setting, and I doubt anyone actually uses it, but it exists.

If they made it so that, while in combat, it wasn’t possible to pass through members of your group, without a setting to let you turn it off, that would be the majority end to at least some stacking.

I don’t really care either way, that is just a way they could change things.

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel:
So using an enemies strengths and weakness against it is an exploit?

In your Lupi example, you are using a legitemate character ability, doing what it designed to do against an enemy who is using a reflectable attack.
This is an exploit?
No it’s using the built in game mechanics in ways they are meant to be used, in situations where using them is valid.

An exploit would be if you lured Lupi into the wall, and because of a bug/glitch he was unable to hurt you, thus allowing you to AFK auto attack him until dead.

The first uses the game mechanics/abilities in unconventional ways, but not taking advantage of bug/glitches/faulty coding.
The latter abuses faulty codes/bugs/glitches to the players advantage.

IIRC there was a glitch/bug that was abused to get precursors or something. It was discovered and a mass ban took place. This is an exploit.

I see what you’re saying, but what I mean by exploit in this case was that of unintended consequences. Granted, its not exploiting a bug, but I suspect the developers never INTENDED for stacking to be a viable options, but once it reared its ugly head they couldnt do anything about it without rewriting a great deal of code, more than would be viable to do.

I suppose I could be wrong in that. And I’ll grant you this, it isn’t exploiting a bug. It’s… perhaps exploiting is the wrong word, but it’s taking advantage of what I believe was a misjudgement on the part of developers who didn’t foresee stacking coming up the way it did.

I used Subject Alpha as an example and I will again. He used to be a difficult encounter. I remember people posting questions on how to beat him, he was so hard. then stacking was discovered, its tactic propogated to the general masses, and now, he’s borderline trivial.

And I’d bet you dollars to donuts the developers did NOT intend him to be so simplified by one thing: stand in one place all together and dodge once in awhile.

Again, I’ll admit I could be wrong. For all I know, its precisely what the developers intended. What do you think? Do you really think Subject Alpha was supposed to be as easy as stacking turned him into?

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel:
So using an enemies strengths and weakness against it is an exploit?

First off, faulty AI is not a legitimate weakness. It is an unintended consequence of development. So yes, in this case exploiting that weakness can be an exploit. It’s not, but it can be.

In your Lupi example, you are using a legitemate character ability, doing what it designed to do against an enemy who is using a reflectable attack.
This is an exploit?
No it’s using the built in game mechanics in ways they are meant to be used, in situations where using them is valid.

An exploit would be if you lured Lupi into the wall, and because of a bug/glitch he was unable to hurt you, thus allowing you to AFK auto attack him until dead.

The first uses the game mechanics/abilities in unconventional ways, but not taking advantage of bug/glitches/faulty coding.
The latter abuses faulty codes/bugs/glitches to the players advantage.

IIRC there was a glitch/bug that was abused to get precursors or something. It was discovered and a mass ban took place. This is an exploit.

Stacking is not an exploit, it is a cheese. It is the use of an unskillful tactics to employ maximum damage through minimum effort and maximum chance for survival. It is like using that one combo attack in a fighting game that you know your opponent can’t defend against and doing nothing but it until they die. But in this case you don’t even have to know a combo, you just have to stand in one place.

Also, using reflect to reflect is not unconventional. It is the literal definition of conventional. It is using a thing specifically in the way it was meant to be used.

Kal Spiro.9745:

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel:
So using an enemies strengths and weakness against it is an exploit?

First off, faulty AI is not a legitimate weakness. It is an unintended consequence of development. So yes, in this case exploiting that weakness can be an exploit. It’s not, but it can be.

In your Lupi example, you are using a legitemate character ability, doing what it designed to do against an enemy who is using a reflectable attack.
This is an exploit?
No it’s using the built in game mechanics in ways they are meant to be used, in situations where using them is valid.

An exploit would be if you lured Lupi into the wall, and because of a bug/glitch he was unable to hurt you, thus allowing you to AFK auto attack him until dead.

The first uses the game mechanics/abilities in unconventional ways, but not taking advantage of bug/glitches/faulty coding.
The latter abuses faulty codes/bugs/glitches to the players advantage.

IIRC there was a glitch/bug that was abused to get precursors or something. It was discovered and a mass ban took place. This is an exploit.

Stacking is not an exploit, it is a cheese. It is the use of an unskillful tactics to employ maximum damage through minimum effort and maximum chance for survival. It is like using that one combo attack in a fighting game that you know your opponent can’t defend against and doing nothing but it until they die. But in this case you don’t even have to know a combo, you just have to stand in one place.

Exactly.

@OP: Here is the thread you are looking for:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Please-fix-zerkmeta-dominance-let-others-play

Character colision may be cool, but ANet wont implement that.

You know, you’d think I’d learn by now not to post about controversial subjects, heh, but at least no flame wars have started

Wuselknusel.4082:

@OP: Here is the thread you are looking for:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Please-fix-zerkmeta-dominance-let-others-play

Character colision may be cool, but ANet wont implement that.

thats about zerker builds, not stacking. Not quite the same thing.

It falls into the same niche.

Stacking is a result of pve being to easy.

If they had mobs that were deadly, hit hard enough, or had aoe attacks that were more sophisticated like causing blind to the point that you had to avoid them. Stacking wouldnt work.

As it stands right now, you can ne wearing gear that offers no defensive stats and your party doesnt have to move out of a stack.

Wuselknusel.4082:

It falls into the same niche.

I disagree. Zerker is a completely separate issue, and frankly, as I’ve explained elsewhere, I don’t think its meta is as justified as many proponents have claimed. My issue has been that full bunkers are worthless in most circumstances, but I find other sets are as viable as zerker are just fine IMHO.

In other words, it isn’t the same niche. And trust me, I get what you’re saying. Very subtly delivered, but not conducive to a polite debate.

Mireles Lore.5942:

Stacking is a result of pve being to easy.

If they had mobs that were deadly, hit hard enough, or had aoe attacks that were more sophisticated like causing blind to the point that you had to avoid them. Stacking wouldnt work.

or a massive cleave.

Mireles Lore.5942:

Stacking is a result of pve being to easy.

If they had mobs that were deadly, hit hard enough, or had aoe attacks that were more sophisticated like causing blind to the point that you had to avoid them. Stacking wouldnt work.

And that actually was one of my proposals. Heck they could have an escalating AoE that does more damage the more enemies are within the AoE. Unavoidable moderate attacks. Extremely dangerous avoidable attacks. Regeneration that stacks intensity the more foes are clustered on them. Greater chance when stackined on him of the enemy, say, moving away and switching to extremely powerful long range attack and playing keep away

Plenty of ways to break stacking without breaking stacking, I guess is what I’m saying. the problem is, are there any actual easy ways to implement these things? I suspect not. And I suspect the dev team is more focused on completing new revenue-generating content than in fixing what they probably consider comparatively minor issues.

Cleaves should have a multiplicative effect for additional targets hit.

For example, right now if I hit 3 enemies with my sword I do 1000 + 1000 + 1000 damage. If we award a 15% bonus for each cleave (base damage * 0.15 * number of targets hit), then I would instead do 1450 + 1450 + 1450 for a net increase of 1350 damage. Using 4 enemies as an example, we’d go from 1000 + 1000 + 1000 + 1000 to 1600 + 1600 + 1600 + 1600 for a net increase of 2400 damage.

This multiplicative damage modifier would incentivize strategic placement of players in order to avoid everyone receiving massive damage spikes.

In most cases stacking is not about “using an enemies strengths and weaknesses against it.” In most cases is about a dps race with minimal down time between dps skills.

For example:
When players start playing more “dynamically” with content that stacking is the normal method of operation, skills such as the warrior great sword’s hundred blades starts missing, because the enemy moves out of range. In this case, not only is there a loss of pure dps, but also from potential might stacking from phalanx strength.

Similarly, any smaller aoe fields, attacks, etc. can miss by having an enemy move out of range of the attack and fixed position skills.

While there are plenty of skills that have leaps, sprints, etc. (to the point that it makes ranged weapons almost pointless… gg anet), they usually aren’t designed to be used as a primary method of dps (lower damage compared to other skills, cool downs, etc.).

Players stack because they don’t have to think and can just “dps, dps, dps, dps.”

The problem comes partly from just poor design on the devs side of things, but also just because players are going to always try and find the most mind numbing ways to do things (because “efficiency” lol). The latter can be reasonably remedied by decent content design.

I can understand pulling a phalanx tactic here and there, stacking for a few seconds to stack buffs, etc. but the way things are now (especially in dungeons) is just broken.

Ideas they need to use more:

• make more use of some boss mechanics already in the game that require players to move enemies into an aoe field to weaken/stun/etc. enemies (ex. the dredge fractal bosses).
• Spawn unique items integral to specific battles that one player in the party picks up, gives them some aoe invuln skill that they have to use after certain boss indicators (certain charge animations, etc.) that the party has to stack in to survive. This item could also be used in other ways too depending on the battle (stuns that correlate to certain boss skills; red stun used for red charge skill, blue stun used for blue charge skill, etc.) Kind of like Grast’s guardian barrier thing in AC I guess (but more player interaction, less npc).

Open world content should have more coordinated events like Tequatl, but with more variation in size (not requiring nearly a full map pf players). Make some small sized versions (3-5 player for the core event group, scaling the event by adding mini events around the main one or something), and mid sized events (10-15), etc.

Unfortunately, Anet will probably not update anything in the currently accessible areas. Any improvements on content will most likely only be seen in the expac; the current areas will probably be left to become obsolete and pretty much barren of players for the most part.

anabasis.7346:

If you are stacking you are voluntarily nerfing yourself.

What’s more important to you, having fun, or seeing large numbers appear on your screen?

Sollith.3502:

In most cases stacking is not about “using an enemies strengths and weaknesses against it.” In most cases is about a dps race with minimal down time between dps skills.

For example:
When players start playing more “dynamically” with content that stacking is the normal method of operation, skills such as the warrior great sword’s hundred blades starts missing, because the enemy moves out of range. In this case, not only is there a loss of pure dps, but also from potential might stacking from phalanx strength.

Similarly, any smaller aoe fields, attacks, etc. can miss by having an enemy move out of range of the attack and fixed position skills.

While there are plenty of skills that have leaps, sprints, etc. (to the point that it makes ranged weapons almost pointless… gg anet), they usually aren’t designed to be used as a primary method of dps (lower damage compared to other skills, cool downs, etc.).

Players stack because they don’t have to think and can just “dps, dps, dps, dps.”

The problem comes partly from just poor design on the devs side of things, but also just because players are going to always try and find the most mind numbing ways to do things (because “efficiency” lol). The latter can be reasonably remedied by decent content design.

I can understand pulling a phalanx tactic here and there, stacking for a few seconds to stack buffs, etc. but the way things are now (especially in dungeons) is just broken.

Ideas they need to use more:

• make more use of some boss mechanics already in the game that require players to move enemies into an aoe field to weaken/stun/etc. enemies (ex. the dredge fractal bosses).
• Spawn unique items integral to specific battles that one player in the party picks up, gives them some aoe invuln skill that they have to use after certain boss indicators (certain charge animations, etc.) that the party has to stack in to survive. This item could also be used in other ways too depending on the battle (stuns that correlate to certain boss skills; red stun used for red charge skill, blue stun used for blue charge skill, etc.) Kind of like Grast’s guardian barrier thing in AC I guess (but more player interaction, less npc).

Open world content should have more coordinated events like Tequatl, but with more variation in size (not requiring nearly a full map pf players). Make some small sized versions (3-5 player for the core event group, scaling the event by adding mini events around the main one or something), and mid sized events (10-15), etc.

Unfortunately, Anet will probably not update anything in the currently accessible areas. Any improvements on content will most likely only be seen in the expac; the current areas will probably be left to become obsolete and pretty much barren of players for the most part.

You brought up some good points. Particularly about the missing abilities. This goes back to the trinity though. No tank means no mob holding position. Players can play tanky but mobs hit so hard that being tanky really doesn’t matter. It is a viscous circle of unhappiness.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Stacking is not an exploit, it is a cheese. It is the use of an unskillful tactics to employ maximum damage through minimum effort and maximum chance for survival. It is like using that one combo attack in a fighting game that you know your opponent can’t defend against and doing nothing but it until they die. But in this case you don’t even have to know a combo, you just have to stand in one place.

Also, using reflect to reflect is not unconventional. It is the literal definition of conventional. It is using a thing specifically in the way it was meant to be used.

I’ll concede the reflect aspect. However, Cheese cannot be considered an exploit.
Do I agree with stacking? Not really. Do I use stacking? Sure, because I just want to get done with the dungeon and don’t care enough to fight it.
But if using a tactic that is “Cheese” is cause for concern, and demands that Anet take steps to avoid it, what about “cheese” builds?
Do turrets need to be removed because a turret engi is"cheese mode"?
Do MM necros need to have minions removed?
What about hambow/shoutbow?
Rangers in general?
Mesmers?
Etc.

The problem doesn’t lie in that the game allows for stacking, or that AI is designed in such a way that stacking makes the most sense. It’s that some people feel that these prescribed ways are THE ONLY way to play. But that isn’t the case. The game is designed with PHIW in mind. But people feel that they cannot play how they want, and instead must conform to the methods/builds/play styles that are widely accepted as the most effective. Is this a development/mechanical issue? Or is it a social issue?
It seems that the players themselves are really to blame for stacking, the zerker meta, zerging, etc. They also forget that one isn’t required to do things according to the “meta”.
Go. Forge your own path, play your own game, and have fun. Don’t bow down to those who tell you that you must do XYZ. You’ll live longer and be happier.

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly, I think stacking is a way to exploit flawed AI, not a tactic per se. I’d bet if you talked to the developers they would say that they had never intended stacking to be a tactic to beat these guys.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Yes, I’m sure the developers put all those short duration, small AOE skills and the entire freaking combo system in just so you would never use them.

Battledoll.1803:

Try fractals, they do not allow much stacking on Bosses.

What.

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

anabasis.7346:

If you are stacking you are voluntarily nerfing yourself.

Not really. Stacking gives you boons, healing, and protection. Staying at ranged is nerfing yourself. People also stack in WvW because of this.

Darkwolfer.7819:

Sollith.3502:

In most cases stacking is not about “using an enemies strengths and weaknesses against it.” In most cases is about a dps race with minimal down time between dps skills.

For example:
When players start playing more “dynamically” with content that stacking is the normal method of operation, skills such as the warrior great sword’s hundred blades starts missing, because the enemy moves out of range. In this case, not only is there a loss of pure dps, but also from potential might stacking from phalanx strength.

Similarly, any smaller aoe fields, attacks, etc. can miss by having an enemy move out of range of the attack and fixed position skills.

While there are plenty of skills that have leaps, sprints, etc. (to the point that it makes ranged weapons almost pointless… gg anet), they usually aren’t designed to be used as a primary method of dps (lower damage compared to other skills, cool downs, etc.).

Players stack because they don’t have to think and can just “dps, dps, dps, dps.”

The problem comes partly from just poor design on the devs side of things, but also just because players are going to always try and find the most mind numbing ways to do things (because “efficiency” lol). The latter can be reasonably remedied by decent content design.

I can understand pulling a phalanx tactic here and there, stacking for a few seconds to stack buffs, etc. but the way things are now (especially in dungeons) is just broken.

Ideas they need to use more:

• make more use of some boss mechanics already in the game that require players to move enemies into an aoe field to weaken/stun/etc. enemies (ex. the dredge fractal bosses).
• Spawn unique items integral to specific battles that one player in the party picks up, gives them some aoe invuln skill that they have to use after certain boss indicators (certain charge animations, etc.) that the party has to stack in to survive. This item could also be used in other ways too depending on the battle (stuns that correlate to certain boss skills; red stun used for red charge skill, blue stun used for blue charge skill, etc.) Kind of like Grast’s guardian barrier thing in AC I guess (but more player interaction, less npc).

Open world content should have more coordinated events like Tequatl, but with more variation in size (not requiring nearly a full map pf players). Make some small sized versions (3-5 player for the core event group, scaling the event by adding mini events around the main one or something), and mid sized events (10-15), etc.

Unfortunately, Anet will probably not update anything in the currently accessible areas. Any improvements on content will most likely only be seen in the expac; the current areas will probably be left to become obsolete and pretty much barren of players for the most part.

You brought up some good points. Particularly about the missing abilities. This goes back to the trinity though. No tank means no mob holding position. Players can play tanky but mobs hit so hard that being tanky really doesn’t matter. It is a viscous circle of unhappiness.

Now that Taunt is coming out, though, that could change lol

Stacking is PLAYER driven NOT game/mechanic driven believe it or not you can melee something WITHOUT stacking PERIOD FACT end of discussion.

Seriously though, just did CM with an odd group. We did no skips, no skips! in CM! (no stealth) and we plowed through the content just as fast. Because we didn’t pause once. Everyone was crazy good, we had 0 deaths, 0 waiting etc.

Point is players try to imitate the speed runners and actually end up taking MORE time.

A memory that will always stick in my mind was a run on AC p2. They REFUSED to use two traps for boss. Even though they failed over and over (seriously like 4 times before I just quit the group.)

Players are kittening idiots. Find people you prefer to play with. Problem solved.

Other than that though I wouldn’t mind seeing some encounters that discourage grouping up just for a difference. Or rather, encourage splittiing the group into a few different places.

Funnily enough if you remember a lot of the story fights a lot of them are actually more fun mechanically. Like… wanna say AC lover’s fight, been so long though… where you have to keep them split up to deal damage. There’s more but I digress…

cthaeh.2168:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly, I think stacking is a way to exploit flawed AI, not a tactic per se. I’d bet if you talked to the developers they would say that they had never intended stacking to be a tactic to beat these guys.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Yes, I’m sure the developers put all those short duration, small AOE skills and the entire freaking combo system in just so you would never use them.

Wasn’t talking about combos, was talking about stacking. Its not the same thing, not by a long shot. Glad you got a good laugh, but try addressing the actual subject and not some tangent.