Guild Wars 2

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Battledoll.1803:

Try fractals, they do not allow much stacking on Bosses.

What.

Probably means most of the end fights. I call them boss fights too as in end of level (last one you do). You don’t really stack on mai trin, jade maw, etc.

Mightybird.6034:

Stacking is PLAYER driven NOT game/mechanic driven believe it or not you can melee something WITHOUT stacking PERIOD FACT end of discussion.

Not precisely. When stacking becomes a big giant easy mode button, it’s not easy to encourage people to intentionally make it harder on themselves, even if the easy method is also boring.

What I mean is… yes, it is a player driven issue. But it discounts the facts that humans are like water: they tend to flow down the path of least resistance. Even if, to mix metaphors here, the path least traveled may end up in the end being more entertaining.

Most people tend to be so goal-driven that they decide not to smell the roses, but trample over them. And furthermore, these bosses are, for the most part I suspect, intended to be more challenging, but the stacking has trivialized them. And almost no one wants to run the risk of failing at a dungeon if they can stack and finish it quickly.

I’ve seen other people complain about stacking, even as they did it themselves! Player driven? I suppose. But if the fights were made more challenging, it would become a non-issue.

Morfedel.4165:

Not precisely. When stacking becomes a big giant easy mode button, it’s not easy to encourage people to intentionally make it harder on themselves, even if the easy method is also boring.

Except there are already fights that punish stacking. Either forcing you to move, die, pull a certain way, etc. Again AC2 ghost boss, if you pull directly to stack, he throws a pulsing aoe down on you.

The newest content, silverwastes is fairly anti stack, except the point in VW champs where you stack for a sec to avoid damage. But the mobs themselves are pretty anti stack.

That was kinda the point I was trying to get at. Only some fights does it even make it easier…some fights its dangerous. Some you need to move and either not stack or re-stack somewhere else (in which case stacking isn’t even necessary often.)

One of the boss fights in arah requires you to stand in different spots and kite mobs around….

Mai-trin, jade maw, molten duo are anti stack (not as much leading up to em though.)

So how can you call stacking an easy mode button?

Morfedel.4165:

Mightybird.6034:

Stacking is PLAYER driven NOT game/mechanic driven believe it or not you can melee something WITHOUT stacking PERIOD FACT end of discussion.

Not precisely. When stacking becomes a big giant easy mode button, it’s not easy to encourage people to intentionally make it harder on themselves, even if the easy method is also boring.

What I mean is… yes, it is a player driven issue. But it discounts the facts that humans are like water: they tend to flow down the path of least resistance. Even if, to mix metaphors here, the path least traveled may end up in the end being more entertaining.

Most people tend to be so goal-driven that they decide not to smell the roses, but trample over them. And furthermore, these bosses are, for the most part I suspect, intended to be more challenging, but the stacking has trivialized them. And almost no one wants to run the risk of failing at a dungeon if they can stack and finish it quickly.

I’ve seen other people complain about stacking, even as they did it themselves! Player driven? I suppose. But if the fights were made more challenging, it would become a non-issue.

The thing is, stacking isn’t the issue. For boss fights it doesn’t matter where you stand, it’s not anymore difficult if you don’t stack.

Alpha for example, in CoE. He doesn’t need to be stacked into a corner, that doesn’t do anything. People think it’s easier, it’s the same exact thing as out in the open. The problem is that bosses are so easy that you can beat them with 2 dodges no matter where you are.

Stacking is pointless, it clears trash mobs just fine, but for bosses it’s entirely useless and doesn’t speed up the encounter or make it any easier. It’s just an illusion that new players got into the habit of doing because of FGS, where you’d rush into a wall to do incredible damage and 1 shot bosses, and now think people still do it because it’s more defensive.

Play with any knowledgeable player and you won’t have to worry about stacking or silly pointless stuff.

Rhomulos.2089:

Morfedel.4165:

Mightybird.6034:

Stacking is PLAYER driven NOT game/mechanic driven believe it or not you can melee something WITHOUT stacking PERIOD FACT end of discussion.

Not precisely. When stacking becomes a big giant easy mode button, it’s not easy to encourage people to intentionally make it harder on themselves, even if the easy method is also boring.

What I mean is… yes, it is a player driven issue. But it discounts the facts that humans are like water: they tend to flow down the path of least resistance. Even if, to mix metaphors here, the path least traveled may end up in the end being more entertaining.

Most people tend to be so goal-driven that they decide not to smell the roses, but trample over them. And furthermore, these bosses are, for the most part I suspect, intended to be more challenging, but the stacking has trivialized them. And almost no one wants to run the risk of failing at a dungeon if they can stack and finish it quickly.

I’ve seen other people complain about stacking, even as they did it themselves! Player driven? I suppose. But if the fights were made more challenging, it would become a non-issue.

The thing is, stacking isn’t the issue. For boss fights it doesn’t matter where you stand, it’s not anymore difficult if you don’t stack.

Alpha for example, in CoE. He doesn’t need to be stacked into a corner, that doesn’t do anything. People think it’s easier, it’s the same exact thing as out in the open. The problem is that bosses are so easy that you can beat them with 2 dodges no matter where you are.

Stacking is pointless, it clears trash mobs just fine, but for bosses it’s entirely useless and doesn’t speed up the encounter or make it any easier. It’s just an illusion that new players got into the habit of doing because of FGS, where you’d rush into a wall to do incredible damage and 1 shot bosses, and now think people still do it because it’s more defensive.

Play with any knowledgeable player and you won’t have to worry about stacking or silly pointless stuff.

I agree with the exception of stacking for a pre fight stack of might. And stacking for stealth for skips. But most players who stack rarely do might and often mess up the stealth skips or don’t even do those either so..

Mightybird.6034:

Rhomulos.2089:

Morfedel.4165:

Mightybird.6034:

Stacking is PLAYER driven NOT game/mechanic driven believe it or not you can melee something WITHOUT stacking PERIOD FACT end of discussion.

Not precisely. When stacking becomes a big giant easy mode button, it’s not easy to encourage people to intentionally make it harder on themselves, even if the easy method is also boring.

What I mean is… yes, it is a player driven issue. But it discounts the facts that humans are like water: they tend to flow down the path of least resistance. Even if, to mix metaphors here, the path least traveled may end up in the end being more entertaining.

Most people tend to be so goal-driven that they decide not to smell the roses, but trample over them. And furthermore, these bosses are, for the most part I suspect, intended to be more challenging, but the stacking has trivialized them. And almost no one wants to run the risk of failing at a dungeon if they can stack and finish it quickly.

I’ve seen other people complain about stacking, even as they did it themselves! Player driven? I suppose. But if the fights were made more challenging, it would become a non-issue.

The thing is, stacking isn’t the issue. For boss fights it doesn’t matter where you stand, it’s not anymore difficult if you don’t stack.

Alpha for example, in CoE. He doesn’t need to be stacked into a corner, that doesn’t do anything. People think it’s easier, it’s the same exact thing as out in the open. The problem is that bosses are so easy that you can beat them with 2 dodges no matter where you are.

Stacking is pointless, it clears trash mobs just fine, but for bosses it’s entirely useless and doesn’t speed up the encounter or make it any easier. It’s just an illusion that new players got into the habit of doing because of FGS, where you’d rush into a wall to do incredible damage and 1 shot bosses, and now think people still do it because it’s more defensive.

Play with any knowledgeable player and you won’t have to worry about stacking or silly pointless stuff.

I agree with the exception of stacking for a pre fight stack of might. And stacking for stealth for skips. But most players who stack rarely do might and often mess up the stealth skips or don’t even do those either so..

Most players would refer to extremely inexperienced players then, ones that often have no idea whats going on.

I was kicked from a CoE group after a run the other day, because they didn’t believe me when I said not to pull the icebrood wolf without clearing it’s skills, so the group didn’t wipe, and then not having to stack in a corner. As well as all of the alpha fights, where you can survive just by dodging around Alpha.

Casual PUGs that think they’re experienced are always 3 months behind, and often don’t want to understand. Just have to lead by example.

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

It worked when I did it.

Glad to see all the responses in this thread from people who are completely clueless about the game’s mechanics or game design in general.

I dont play PvE much at all, but can somebody explain “stacking” tactics to me please.

I was under the impression that if everybody is in the same location, that would lead to easier time being hit by PvE NPC attacks.

But from what I hear, zerks do this tactic.

So can somebody explain to me how stacking messes with the AI?

It doesn’t mess with the AI. Not at all. The AI has an easier time hitting all. However, the players do also have an easier time hitting the mob.
It’s a win win situation I guess.

Morfedel.4165:

As the title says. I don’t mind an occasional boss where stacking works. But its used all over the place, especially in dungeons.

And it’s a crying shame, really. It turns encounters that could be very exciting into brainless exercises.

Exciting? I suspect you’re in the minority with this belief. I think most of us came into GW2 with your mindset and were annoyed at the way most encounters worked. I know I absolutely hated stacking at first. Over time, I just accepted the game’s design and learned to enjoy it. Speed and efficiency are king here, and if you can’t get into that kind of game play you may never really enjoy dungeons like the rest of us. And believe it or not, we’re pretty happy with the established tactics. A good group melee fights and breezes through the dungeon with banter and occasional jokes.

Morfedel.4165:

The key is to do it without nerfing melee characters. Maybe make the characters more mobile, or causing its damage output to increase the more it stays in one spot with little movement, or higher regeneration, or something.

Yeah, stacking and simply fighting on enemies really makes fights a lot easier for melee characters because the high damage attack skills root you in place. There’s nothing more frustrating that running around behind an enemy trying to hit him while another party member kites it away and safely auto attacks from range.

Morfedel.4165:

I want encounters where you have to think more. Yes, I can voluntarily “nerf” myself and do it the hard way, but unless I find a group willing to do likewise (highly unlikely), it simply isnt going to get this tactic to go away.

PvP might be more suited to your needs, in that case. AI is always going to be limited and predictable. Plus the content is old, man. PUGs are in it for the gold and nobody wants to run the same instances for the same loot if the enemies are suddenly more challenging.

NikeEU.7690:

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

It worked when I did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jra3jV_ckYg

Glad to see all the responses in this thread from people who are completely clueless about the game’s mechanics or game design in general.

That video didn’t prove a thing. It just shows that you can form a group. It didn’t show any comparison with a “meta” group.

nexxe.7081:

NikeEU.7690:

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

It worked when I did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jra3jV_ckYg

Glad to see all the responses in this thread from people who are completely clueless about the game’s mechanics or game design in general.

That video didn’t prove a thing. It just shows that you can form a group. It didn’t show any comparison with a “meta” group.

Why compare? Tell me, I’m curious. Do you want to be as effective as a meta group?

I totally agree.

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

No.

Well designed games manage to make each encounter unique and complex enough that one type of method, like perma-stacking (or any other), isn’t always (or even mostly) used.

If people don’t realise that, I can only assume they haven’t played many other MMOs (or no good ones).

Tigaseye.2047:

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

No.

Well designed games manage to make each encounter unique enough that one type of method, like stacking (or any other), isn’t always used.

If people don’t realise that, I can only assume they haven’t played many other MMOs (or no good ones).

How many games use the trinity system where you need a tank to hold aggro while everyone else either spams attacks or does support? Many of them have that as the only method to do encounters in their games. I guess those are poorly designed too?

Morfedel.4165:

cthaeh.2168:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly, I think stacking is a way to exploit flawed AI, not a tactic per se. I’d bet if you talked to the developers they would say that they had never intended stacking to be a tactic to beat these guys.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Yes, I’m sure the developers put all those short duration, small AOE skills and the entire freaking combo system in just so you would never use them.

Wasn’t talking about combos, was talking about stacking. Its not the same thing, not by a long shot. Glad you got a good laugh, but try addressing the actual subject and not some tangent.

Oh, sorry, forgot this is one of those threads where people who have no clue how the game works come to complain that it should change. You see, this game has skill combinations. Some skills are combo fields and some are combo finishers. If a combo finisher is executed inside a combo field an effect is granted to all players or enemies within in its radius. The radius of pretty much every skill in the game is very small, so you have to be close to your enemies and allies in order to take advantage of this system. One would even say you have to “stack” on each other to be inside these combo fields. So, I ask you, how does one take advantage of such a combo system without stacking? Since you seem to understand developer intent so well, why would the developers create such a system if they had no intention of players being close to each other and the enemy?

Tigaseye.2047:

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

No.

Well designed games manage to make each encounter unique and complex enough that one type of method, like stacking (or any other), isn’t always (or even mostly) used.

If people don’t realise that, I can only assume they haven’t played many other MMOs (or no good ones).

Just because you can stack or LoS things doesn’t mean you really even gain a benefit from it.

Sure being close for quick pickups and boon sharing is good, but that doesn’t mean you have to be humping each other in a corner.

The only reason you see a lot of stacking is because it’s what the PUG community is used to. It’s a common practice strategy that’s easier to just fall in line and use rather than actually communicate with your team. Especially when even if you try to communicate with your team they’ll likely either ignore you or start kitten ing it up. I always pull the robots in SE1, and by that I don’t mean tag and drag to the corner to LoS, no, I mean Binding Blades/Temporal Curtain, drop a reflect and burn. More often than not my PUG groups refuse to leave the corner to help, they just watch me nearly kill them all then eventually go down. I mean seriously a single ice bow’s worth of help is all I’d need, but nope, they can’t comprehend moving out of the predefined PUG tactics even if it has the potential to save them a good 5-10 seconds. It sounds silly but people just rather stick to what they know.

That’s why I don’t see this as a problem with the game. Though I’m all for disincentivizing the tactic through various forms of punishment if it’s done carefully and doesn’t punish fighting in the open but meleeing together as a byproduct.

The problem is with the community, and their stubborn unwillingness to try new things.

Of course Stacking does have the benefit of controlling your more kitten y members of a group. I’ll give it that.

^ You’re absolutely right in many ways and I do agree with you to an extent, but I also maintain that it was, primarily, Anet’s fault that players got into these bad habits, in the first place.

If you play a game where every encounter is different and requires a series of different and unique responses and where trying to do the same tactic, repeatedly, simply doesn’t work, you don’t get into those bad habits in the first place.

Ohh absolutely, but, it’s not so much that the content is bad, it’s that they never put out content that expanded upon the groundwork they laid. If anything you could say it was Open World training you for more advanced combat through Open World Bosses and Dungeons, then maybe Fractals being the second iteration on Dungeons, but then… nothing.

They’ve failed to expand on the mechanics and make things more interesting, that’s for sure.

But, players actually playing Meta don’t do much stacking, that’s PUG tactics for the most part, meta casual runs may include some LoSing if you lack the party composition with the tools to group things up efficiently, but typically you bring something that can do it decently, and often don’t even need that. Point being, that it’s not a “stacking” issue as much as an overall game issue that has more than just stacking as a symptom that arises.

cthaeh.2168:

Morfedel.4165:

cthaeh.2168:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly, I think stacking is a way to exploit flawed AI, not a tactic per se. I’d bet if you talked to the developers they would say that they had never intended stacking to be a tactic to beat these guys.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Yes, I’m sure the developers put all those short duration, small AOE skills and the entire freaking combo system in just so you would never use them.

Wasn’t talking about combos, was talking about stacking. Its not the same thing, not by a long shot. Glad you got a good laugh, but try addressing the actual subject and not some tangent.

Oh, sorry, forgot this is one of those threads where people who have no clue how the game works come to complain that it should change. You see, this game has skill combinations. Some skills are combo fields and some are combo finishers. If a combo finisher is executed inside a combo field an effect is granted to all players or enemies within in its radius. The radius of pretty much every skill in the game is very small, so you have to be close to your enemies and allies in order to take advantage of this system. One would even say you have to “stack” on each other to be inside these combo fields. So, I ask you, how does one take advantage of such a combo system without stacking? Since you seem to understand developer intent so well, why would the developers create such a system if they had no intention of players being close to each other and the enemy?

I don’t know if they did it intentionally, or not, but the other possibility is that some people simply aren’t very good at foreseeing the potential outcomes of their actions.

Unintended consequences, in other words.

Either way, it’s not good – as if they did it on purpose, they are not very good designers (quite frankly) and if they didn’t do it on purpose, they’re lacking in foresight.

GW1 had the AI scatter if they were hit with continued aoe skills (think Wells or Firestorm). All they have to do is just implement that and at best people will stack for the initial buffs then scatter as the mobs go in different directions.

Jerus.4350:

Point being, that it’s not a “stacking” issue as much as an overall game issue that has more than just stacking as a symptom that arises.

Yes, I would totally agree with that.

It definitely seems to be a symptom; not a cause, as such.

Wuselknusel.4082:

nexxe.7081:

NikeEU.7690:

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

It worked when I did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jra3jV_ckYg

Glad to see all the responses in this thread from people who are completely clueless about the game’s mechanics or game design in general.

That video didn’t prove a thing. It just shows that you can form a group. It didn’t show any comparison with a “meta” group.

Why compare? Tell me, I’m curious. Do you want to be as effective as a meta group?

Comparisons offer an analysis. Efficiency should be strived for, so you don’t waste your time, or other people’s time, because people value their time. Not only that, but it shows competence in your performance, because you took the time to learn your traits, builds, and acquired specific gear, runes, sigils, etc.

When content becomes trivialized (or too complicated), due to “stacking”, or any form of “meta”, then it needs to offer alternatives to balance variety and challenge.

Just look at sports for an analogy. Anyone can go to the local basketball court and join a PUG, but it will never be as professional as a varsity team, or the NBA. Some of these people eventually move on to a more professional setting, because they want to be more efficient in their skills, while others are content to never hone their skills, which is perfectly fine.

The problem is, players are unwilling to form less efficient groups, because they see that the stacking “zerker meta” is the preferred way to play. Can you blame them? They value their time. This persuades people to stack (exceptions for certain fights), thus limiting their choices in builds and limiting their way of playing. It’s actually less variety than a trinity mmo. At least in trinity mmos, you can have 3 roles. In GW2, it’s more efficient to have one.

When Anet said “play how you want”, when referring to dungeons, i’m pretty sure they meant play whatever classes and builds you want, without being restricted to a specific role, except it didn’t turn out that way. It became one role and one meta, and they have failed to address for almost 3 years.

The funny thing is, they just removed the Practice games in SPvP.

nexxe.7081:

Wuselknusel.4082:

nexxe.7081:

NikeEU.7690:

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

It worked when I did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jra3jV_ckYg

Glad to see all the responses in this thread from people who are completely clueless about the game’s mechanics or game design in general.

That video didn’t prove a thing. It just shows that you can form a group. It didn’t show any comparison with a “meta” group.

Why compare? Tell me, I’m curious. Do you want to be as effective as a meta group?

Comparisons offer an analysis. Efficiency should be strived for, so you don’t waste your time, or other people’s time, because people value their time. Not only that, but it shows competence in your performance, because you took the time to learn your traits, builds, and acquired specific gear, runes, sigils, etc.

When content becomes trivialized (or too complicated), due to “stacking”, or any form of “meta”, then it needs to offer alternatives to balance variety and challenge.

Just look at sports for an analogy. Anyone can go to the local basketball court and join a PUG, but it will never be as professional as a varsity team, or the NBA. Some of these people eventually move on to a more professional setting, because they want to be more efficient in their skills, while others are content to never hone their skills, which is perfectly fine.

The problem is, players are unwilling to form less efficient groups, because they see that the stacking “zerker meta” is the preferred way to play. Can you blame them? They value their time. This persuades people to stack (exceptions for certain fights), thus limiting their choices in builds and limiting their way of playing. It’s actually less variety than a trinity mmo. At least in trinity mmos, you can have 3 roles. In GW2, it’s more efficient to have one.

When Anet said “play how you want”, when referring to dungeons, i’m pretty sure they meant play whatever classes and builds you want, without being restricted to a specific role, except it didn’t turn out that way. It became one role and one meta, and they have failed to address for almost 3 years.

The funny thing is, they just removed the Practice games in SPvP.

Wait, so you say that you want to play how you want and that should then be the most efficient strategy? I see what you did there…

You do have various roles in GW2.

If I need projectile defense for the group I’ll likely go guard, maybe mesmer. If I want to play something different I switch my build, D/F for Ele, Slot Elixir U on Engi, Smokescreen on Thief.

If I need blinds I’ll build for it, VoJ spam + Sword/GS on guard, may be meta but honestly at this point I use Mace more than sword except when I need blinds. Engi I’ll slot bombs, Thief I’ll bring offhand Pistol, Ele I may utilize Sandstorm instead of saving it for a Lightning Storm.

If I need defiance stripping optimally Thief OH Pistol or Mesmer with OH Sword/Pistol and Mantra. Though I may utilize some tools on my Ele/engi/war or even guard.

Might stacking Phalanx War over DPS war, or I can do the prefight might stack dance on Ele/Engi before swapping back to my main Staff/dps build, can even utilize guard’s Purging Flames or something for a team might stacking party.

Vuln you can trait differently for it with many professions.

Even just poison uptime for fights that warrent it, or boon stripping, lots of different mechanics that you need to be built for to utilize and have you swapping. The problem is there isn’t enough content and with that not enough diversity in it to utilize many of these aspects enough to really talk about regularly. But there are certainly roles within this game.

And if we’re talking strictly meta:
Guard = defensive support
Mesmer = defensive support/travel
War = Might/offensive support
Ele = DPS mainly but control and offense/defense support as additional aspects
Thief = blinds/stealth/defiance stripping

Each is taken for it’s role, everything but Ele will regularly take pretty big cuts to their damage to fulfill their role, and Even an Ele may switch things up to pick up slack in certain areas at the cost of damage potential (sandstorm, S+LH builds, D/F build)

A lot f you seem to miss that stacking is also to break LoS and pull enemies together or into a more suitable area for fighting. (THATS WHAT IT’S USED FOR) And I don’t know about you guys but I find AOEs tend to hit more often when the enemy actually stays in it instead of running out of it chasing other players around the map.

Ayrilana.1396:

Tigaseye.2047:

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

No.

Well designed games manage to make each encounter unique enough that one type of method, like stacking (or any other), isn’t always used.

If people don’t realise that, I can only assume they haven’t played many other MMOs (or no good ones).

How many games use the trinity system where you need a tank to hold aggro while everyone else either spams attacks or does support? Many of them have that as the only method to do encounters in their games. I guess those are poorly designed too?

Not necessarily. There’s a lot of mechanics involved in other MMOs. Examples would be Tera and Wildstar, and yes, even in WoW. The days of tanking and spanking has been gone for almost 5+ years now.

Search for the Liadri fight in GW2 on youtube, and you’ll see how possible it is for the A.I. to be similar in dungeons. Not just that fight though, but almost all of the Queen’s Gauntlet fights. In fact, they could make that whole place as a dungeon requiring 5 players, and you’ll see that stacking would be useless in those encounters, and the berserker meta wouldn’t be as useful. They never followed through though, and dungeons could have been tuned more like these fights if they did.

The comparisons are night and day.

Queen’s Gauntlet fights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMoQaOnSqrk
GW2 dungeon stacking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ_CVtFRLwk

Chuck.8196:

A lot f you seem to miss that stacking is also to break LoS and pull enemies together or into a more suitable area for fighting. (THATS WHAT IT’S USED FOR) And I don’t know about you guys but I find AOEs tend to hit more often when the enemy actually stays in it instead of running out of it chasing other players around the map.

I don’t think people are missing that.

We (or most of us) are not even claiming that people don’t have valid reasons to stack.

We’re taking issue with the fact that the game design has made that the case.

Better design and better balance could have avoided this situation.

I’m trying to make allowances for the fact that the game doesn’t use a trinity design; I understand that that may make things more awkward.

But, even then, I think it’s disappointing how much it relies on things that favour (or appear to favour) perma-stacking and meleeing.

nexxe.7081:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tigaseye.2047:

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

No.

Well designed games manage to make each encounter unique enough that one type of method, like stacking (or any other), isn’t always used.

If people don’t realise that, I can only assume they haven’t played many other MMOs (or no good ones).

How many games use the trinity system where you need a tank to hold aggro while everyone else either spams attacks or does support? Many of them have that as the only method to do encounters in their games. I guess those are poorly designed too?

Not necessarily. There’s a lot of mechanics involved in other MMOs. Examples would be Tera and Wildstar, and yes, even in WoW. The days of tanking and spanking has been gone for almost 5+ years now.

Search for the Liadri fight in GW2 on youtube, and you’ll see how possible it is for the A.I. to be similar in dungeons. Not just that fight though, but almost all of the Queen’s Gauntlet fights. In fact, they could make that whole place as a dungeon requiring 5 players, and you’ll see that stacking would be useless in those encounters, and the berserker meta wouldn’t be as useful. They never followed through though, and dungeons could have been tuned more like these fights if they did.

The comparisons are night and day.

Queen’s Gauntlet fights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMoQaOnSqrk
GW2 dungeon stacking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ_CVtFRLwk

Well then the older games were all poorly designed. I technically wasn’t making an argument but pointing out a flaw in his based on his premise of a game being poorly designed if there’s only one way to do the encounters as he also stated that if people don’t realize that then they must not have played other MMO’s.

Wuselknusel.4082:

nexxe.7081:

Wuselknusel.4082:

nexxe.7081:

NikeEU.7690:

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

It worked when I did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jra3jV_ckYg

Glad to see all the responses in this thread from people who are completely clueless about the game’s mechanics or game design in general.

That video didn’t prove a thing. It just shows that you can form a group. It didn’t show any comparison with a “meta” group.

Why compare? Tell me, I’m curious. Do you want to be as effective as a meta group?

Comparisons offer an analysis. Efficiency should be strived for, so you don’t waste your time, or other people’s time, because people value their time. Not only that, but it shows competence in your performance, because you took the time to learn your traits, builds, and acquired specific gear, runes, sigils, etc.

When content becomes trivialized (or too complicated), due to “stacking”, or any form of “meta”, then it needs to offer alternatives to balance variety and challenge.

Just look at sports for an analogy. Anyone can go to the local basketball court and join a PUG, but it will never be as professional as a varsity team, or the NBA. Some of these people eventually move on to a more professional setting, because they want to be more efficient in their skills, while others are content to never hone their skills, which is perfectly fine.

The problem is, players are unwilling to form less efficient groups, because they see that the stacking “zerker meta” is the preferred way to play. Can you blame them? They value their time. This persuades people to stack (exceptions for certain fights), thus limiting their choices in builds and limiting their way of playing. It’s actually less variety than a trinity mmo. At least in trinity mmos, you can have 3 roles. In GW2, it’s more efficient to have one.

When Anet said “play how you want”, when referring to dungeons, i’m pretty sure they meant play whatever classes and builds you want, without being restricted to a specific role, except it didn’t turn out that way. It became one role and one meta, and they have failed to address for almost 3 years.

The funny thing is, they just removed the Practice games in SPvP.

Wait, so you say that you want to play how you want and that should then be the most efficient strategy? I see what you did there…

You’re either failing to comprehend, or i did a poor job at conveying what i meant.

People can play however they want, but when the choices become limited to one style, then it becomes a necessity, instead of a preference. Being efficient in skills shouldn’t be limited to one meta, when there could be a variety of builds, traits, and better A.I.

Take a trinity MMO for instance. 5 healers could eventually finish a dungeon, but the dungeon would take twice as long due to the lack of dps.

The same with GW2. 5 guardians with full nomad gear and dolyak runes could eventually finish a dungeon, but no sane player would want to waste their time, knowing they could just get 4 other zerker players and finish in 1/3 of the time. Now imagine if both groups had the same proficiency that was balanced with each other, and both playstyles were efficient and comparable in dungeons, finishing them in a relative time that was similar. There wouldn’t need to be 5 zerkers for everything anymore. There could be a variety of different stat combos and traits, while still letting people use their preferred builds and gear, etc.

Jerus.4350:

Tigaseye.2047:

pdavis.8031:

Morfedel.4165:

Stacking… is effing boring, and to be completely honest, brainless. It requires no real tactics, no thought of any kind. It doesn’t make encounters fun, it makes them lacking in challenge, strategy, and requires no real effort at outplaying the enemy.

Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but I’ll say it again.
Stacking is a legitimate tactic and strategy. Armies all over the world, going back to the days of the Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc. and even today, have used “stacking” at some point or another. The idea was to pack close together for better protection, as well as concentrated fire power. Just because “IT’S SUPER EFFECTIVE!!” doesn’t mean that it’s in anyway broken. Even if in some way, some how, stacking became impossible in GW2, within a week the players would find the next single most effective method, and that would become the norm. Until people started complaining that the “New stacking” was boring and braindead and needs to be removed in favor of a play style the OP enjoys.

No.

Well designed games manage to make each encounter unique and complex enough that one type of method, like stacking (or any other), isn’t always (or even mostly) used.

If people don’t realise that, I can only assume they haven’t played many other MMOs (or no good ones).

Just because you can stack or LoS things doesn’t mean you really even gain a benefit from it.

Sure being close for quick pickups and boon sharing is good, but that doesn’t mean you have to be humping each other in a corner.

The only reason you see a lot of stacking is because it’s what the PUG community is used to. It’s a common practice strategy that’s easier to just fall in line and use rather than actually communicate with your team. Especially when even if you try to communicate with your team they’ll likely either ignore you or start kitten ing it up. I always pull the robots in SE1, and by that I don’t mean tag and drag to the corner to LoS, no, I mean Binding Blades/Temporal Curtain, drop a reflect and burn. More often than not my PUG groups refuse to leave the corner to help, they just watch me nearly kill them all then eventually go down. I mean seriously a single ice bow’s worth of help is all I’d need, but nope, they can’t comprehend moving out of the predefined PUG tactics even if it has the potential to save them a good 5-10 seconds. It sounds silly but people just rather stick to what they know.

That’s why I don’t see this as a problem with the game. Though I’m all for disincentivizing the tactic through various forms of punishment if it’s done carefully and doesn’t punish fighting in the open but meleeing together as a byproduct.

The problem is with the community, and their stubborn unwillingness to try new things.

Of course Stacking does have the benefit of controlling your more kitten y members of a group. I’ll give it that.

Actually stacking at a wall does help DPS, whirles from FGS and warrior GS do much more damage, reflects can be used to greater effect, bosses often lose abilities nearby (Alpha, Lupi) meaning less dodging and more DPS. Plus the constant might buffing and group support, also 4 people can instantly res if someone drops.

There are lots and lots of benefits to stacking – saying “there isn’t” is lying or being kinda dumb.

I love the replies saying “tried forming a nonstacking group didn’t manage to get one for hours” <- this is because the method is inferior and no one wants to do it…

pdavis.8031:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Stacking is not an exploit, it is a cheese. It is the use of an unskillful tactics to employ maximum damage through minimum effort and maximum chance for survival. It is like using that one combo attack in a fighting game that you know your opponent can’t defend against and doing nothing but it until they die. But in this case you don’t even have to know a combo, you just have to stand in one place.

Also, using reflect to reflect is not unconventional. It is the literal definition of conventional. It is using a thing specifically in the way it was meant to be used.

I’ll concede the reflect aspect. However, Cheese cannot be considered an exploit.

I mean, the very first statement in the first line is me saying it’s not an exploit. That was the point.

The difference between Stacking and the rest of your cheesy list is that Stacking wasn’t intentional. It’s something the Devs probably never considered while designing the game, because they rarely do. They don’t consider the path of least resistance, they always think people will play their hardest and use all their available skills.

The only question is whether or not they care about the results enough to do anything about it. There are plenty of ideas right here to show that there are ways to interrupt it, if not remove it entirely. I’m pretty sure they won’t.

NikeEU.7690:

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

how to get rid of stacking

step 1: make a group specifying no stacking
step 2: complete dungeon without stacking

mission successful

did you happen to notice another post in here where he tried that and couldn’t get a group to join him?

It worked when I did it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jra3jV_ckYg

Glad to see all the responses in this thread from people who are completely clueless about the game’s mechanics or game design in general.

As the saying goes, YMMV

But its good to see that there are people out there who are cool with it.

cthaeh.2168:

Morfedel.4165:

cthaeh.2168:

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly, I think stacking is a way to exploit flawed AI, not a tactic per se. I’d bet if you talked to the developers they would say that they had never intended stacking to be a tactic to beat these guys.

This actually made me laugh out loud. Yes, I’m sure the developers put all those short duration, small AOE skills and the entire freaking combo system in just so you would never use them.

Wasn’t talking about combos, was talking about stacking. Its not the same thing, not by a long shot. Glad you got a good laugh, but try addressing the actual subject and not some tangent.

Oh, sorry, forgot this is one of those threads where people who have no clue how the game works come to complain that it should change. You see, this game has skill combinations. Some skills are combo fields and some are combo finishers. If a combo finisher is executed inside a combo field an effect is granted to all players or enemies within in its radius. The radius of pretty much every skill in the game is very small, so you have to be close to your enemies and allies in order to take advantage of this system. One would even say you have to “stack” on each other to be inside these combo fields. So, I ask you, how does one take advantage of such a combo system without stacking? Since you seem to understand developer intent so well, why would the developers create such a system if they had no intention of players being close to each other and the enemy?

Geez, I’ve only been playing since open world beta 2, I had no idea about this whole combo thingie! I’m so glad you came to explain that to me!

You can combine fields without stacking in many cases. Of course, you cant do that with might stacking, but many combos are offensively designed to harm the foe rather than buff the group, and guess what? You can do that from range, hence not needing to stack your GROUP to stack the COMBO!

I know, I’m shocked too!

Jerus.4350:

Sure being close for quick pickups and boon sharing is good, but that doesn’t mean you have to be humping each other in a corner.

Ok +1 just for that lol!

Coulter.2315:

Jerus.4350:

Just because you can stack or LoS things doesn’t mean you really even gain a benefit from it.

Sure being close for quick pickups and boon sharing is good, but that doesn’t mean you have to be humping each other in a corner.

The only reason you see a lot of stacking is because it’s what the PUG community is used to. It’s a common practice strategy that’s easier to just fall in line and use rather than actually communicate with your team. Especially when even if you try to communicate with your team they’ll likely either ignore you or start kitten ing it up. I always pull the robots in SE1, and by that I don’t mean tag and drag to the corner to LoS, no, I mean Binding Blades/Temporal Curtain, drop a reflect and burn. More often than not my PUG groups refuse to leave the corner to help, they just watch me nearly kill them all then eventually go down. I mean seriously a single ice bow’s worth of help is all I’d need, but nope, they can’t comprehend moving out of the predefined PUG tactics even if it has the potential to save them a good 5-10 seconds. It sounds silly but people just rather stick to what they know.

That’s why I don’t see this as a problem with the game. Though I’m all for disincentivizing the tactic through various forms of punishment if it’s done carefully and doesn’t punish fighting in the open but meleeing together as a byproduct.

The problem is with the community, and their stubborn unwillingness to try new things.

Of course Stacking does have the benefit of controlling your more kitten y members of a group. I’ll give it that.

Actually stacking at a wall does help DPS, whirles from FGS and warrior GS do much more damage, reflects can be used to greater effect, bosses often lose abilities nearby (Alpha, Lupi) meaning less dodging and more DPS. Plus the constant might buffing and group support, also 4 people can instantly res if someone drops.

There are lots and lots of benefits to stacking – saying “there isn’t” is lying or being kinda dumb.

I love the replies saying “tried forming a nonstacking group didn’t manage to get one for hours” <- this is because the method is inferior and no one wants to do it…

Can you give me another example of an enemy that loses an attack when walled? And it’s actually not the wall that prevents Lupi from using that attack it’s a proximity thing that just happens to be easy to obtain when walling. Note there is also some debris in the field you can utilize to create that proximity pretty easily and prevent the attack, though easier to screw it up by pushing him out of it.

And you realize that you contradict yourself with the reflect mention considering that you can increase your dps by utilizing reflects on the p3 frenzied blast right? And you can kill Lupi faster off wall by bursting through phase one, saving some burst/vuln for the p2 frenzied blast and utilizing an organized Wall/Feedback to finish him off without using the wallsploit. We’re talking 15s Lupi kills, there’s a reason the speed runs don’t push to the wall, because by the time he gets to the wall he could be dead

Whirlwind and FGS whirl certainly do gain DPS, but is it enough DPS to counter the loss in time from pathing? No where that I know of.

Boon Sharing and quick pickups can easily be done when everyone is simply in melee, no need for stacking, just being close together.

So… nope, you’re wrong.

Get educated before you call someone a liar or dumb.

The benefits to stacking in the way PUG tactics use it is simply control. Easy to see who’s screwing you up when they don’t, easy to maintain positioning because you won’t push the enemy and dodging you remain stationary, and yes, a slight increase in DPS when utilizing those movement attacks, but you lose a notable amount of time gaining that positioning, such that optimal groups simply don’t do it anymore now that FGS exploits are gone. And, if people had been more open minded and tried different tactics even FGS rush would have been a bad idea in many situations allowing even faster kills through the new IceBow meta as we can see with some times actually being decreased since the nerf.

Anet implemented a very mobile combat with dodging, tons of aoe circles – and combined it for some reason with some very static effects like fields, very short ranged group buffs, aoe-autoattacks, which leads to stacking/staying close to each other.
I don’t think Anet planned stacking. Because it doesn’t work well with many of their skills. Active defence like cripple/chill/speedbuffs becomes less powerful, fear gets useless, knockback gets useless – some “core-effects” of many weapons.

Jerus.4350:

You do have various roles in GW2.

Yes, but most of them are very similar. Compared to classic roles like tank, healer, dps.
Some blinds and stuff won’t change your role completly. Running a dps ele with blinds is the same than running it without. Not a different “game experience”.
Many players even don’t get to this point: you have to play a bit more coordinated in instanced teamcontent to experience it. Those “5 metazerk warrior” groups will not experience it – and open world is usually even worse.

Adding some support doesn’t turn a dps build into a supporter. GW2 supportbuilds are usually very close to “dps”, so they feel very similar.

Anet could sharpen those support roles to cause a more “support-feeling”. They just need to make effects more noticeable. Big numbers, stuff like this. Or Skills like timewarp. Visible effects. A “woha, nice buff” feeling. I don’t notice a placed banner – but I notice 25 stacks of might.
PS War is in a good spot – maybe Anet could change other effects to increase the “supportfeeling”. Fixing condidmg would also be a good thing.

Literally not a single time in the history of GW2 has someone made one of these threads and shown accurate knowledge of the game’s mechanics, dungeon strategies, and meta builds.

Luring bosses behind corners has only ever been useful because of THIS.

It has been nerfed 9 months ago. Now luring bosses behind corners is pointless and a massive waste of time in full groups.

Please educate yourself on the subject at hand before complaining about removing it.

Running Sandstorm on Ele is rarely enough blinds to get you through, it’s a nice option, especially when doubled up, but thief blinds are far more reliable and take a chunk out of your damage, same with Engi Bombs. And even so, you lose your Lightning Storm for vuln/damage when you have sandstorm on cooldown because you were using it on trash before a boss.

And Meta play in Trinity games doesn’t have healers just healing, or tanks just tanking. No, Defense caps out, it simply does, you only need so much, so when you exceed your required Defense your defensive players turn to offense. I’ve done it in every Trinity game I’ve played. You create hybrid specs where you can get your job done and focus on damage as much as possible.

In DCUO this meant often running your tanks in DPS gear, and Healers in DPS gear or DPS role with healer gear.

In EQ we would have Tanks in the top 10 (out of 54) in damage if we properly supported them to do such (bard/shaman in group), and Bards could hit top 10 or 15 while doing absolutely everything they were meant to do, I did this regularly as a main Bard, even edging up to top 5 in certain encounters due to their mechanics.

GW2 took it a step further by making everyone their own keepers, you can help each other but everyone is still self reliant in the end, blaming someone else for a death isn’t ok, unless of course you’re in a very organized group that expected that Aegis or whatever and the guard failed to provide it like was planned.

GW2 is pretty true to form in that they intended to not have strict roles but flexible ones. You can get through a fight without full upkeep of reflects or blinds, but they do have a noticeable impact.

Yes you can run 5X warrior groups, in fact you can run 5X anything groups if you prepare properly. But, it’s inefficient and not as good as covering your bases with the various roles and everyone DPSes as much as they can outside of completing their role.

And, I’d actually say PS war is in a bad spot in that it’s very inactive play relative to the alternatives. Faceroll your keyboard with GS equipped is quite boring. The role is certainly good, but it is better on an Ele as far as gameplay goes as it’s far more intricate and requires better coordination.

Purple Miku.7032:

Literally not a single time in the history of GW2 has someone made one of these threads and shown accurate knowledge of the game’s mechanics, dungeon strategies, and meta builds.

Even in this thread I’m getting the feeling that people fail to realize that you can stack off of walls…

Jerus.4350:

GW2 is pretty true to form in that they intended to not have strict roles but flexible ones. You can get through a fight without full upkeep of reflects or blinds, but they do have a noticeable impact.

In a coordinated group: yes.
In a PUG of fullsoldiers many effects become less noticeable. Especially “avoid one hit” stuff like blinds/aegis. A fullsoldier fighting “open field 1vs1” might prefer regeneration because it has more impact on him.

Jerus.4350:

Yes you can run 5X warrior groups, in fact you can run 5X anything groups if you prepare properly.

I was refering to 5 warrior groups to point out:
you have to play on a “advanced level” to get access to those different playstyles/roles in GW2.
Many players are playing more casual, are not doing fast dungeon runs. A group without might has no “might stacking role”. Those 5 warrior groups got no blindspam, WoR etc. They got only one role: dps.
To be fast you have to interact, bring more support, play “soft” roles. But many low-dps PUGs will never experience this part of the game.
For example: if enemies die slowly guardians F1 spam is way weaker. Fullsoldiers are able to survive way more hits. So a guardians spamming F1 won’t have a huge impact. If you’re running in a group with more damge and less tanky: it has impact.

Timewarp had/has some very visible effect. See those “4 Warriors lf mesmer”. Imho Ane needs to bring roles more into casual play, make them more useful/easy to use in casual groups. PS – for example – does so. Should be less effective (imho), but i think it has brought might stacking into PUGs.
(PS big advantage: it doesn’t interfere with other fields. Mightstacking in PUGs usually ends in stacking retalation. Fields interfering with each other is imho a design flaw.)

Jerus.4350:

And, I’d actually say PS war is in a bad spot in that it’s very inactive play relative to the alternatives. Faceroll your keyboard with GS equipped is quite boring. The role is certainly good, but it is better on an Ele as far as gameplay goes as it’s far more intricate and requires better coordination.

/agree

It’s a pity that the game doesn’t educate their players better about the tools they have to use and the power within them. These “coordinated groups” often don’t even discuss the tactics used as they’re just natural to them. If I see a smoke field before or during a skip I blast it. If I see a firefield I blast it if we need might. If we’re up against an enemy with projectile attacks and nothing is up to prevent them I’ll use what I have if I have it available, and so on. A lot of it is more about education than coordination.

To your second point, I’d simply remark that different professions have different strengths at different roles. Guard may not be able to lock down the blinds, but a thief can do a much better job, and an Engi not far behind. Each profession has certain roles they excel at, and that’s what has created the Meta group compositions. Your Guards don’t even really concern themselves with blinds when you have a thief in the party, nor do your Ele’s bring a focus when a guard is in the party. Likewise if you have PS war you don’t need an Ele to run S+LH for might. And, even outside the Meta an Engi won’t need to bring a smoke field if a thief is there, or a Ranger won’t likely have to utilize their reflect if a Guard/Mesmer is in the party. Everyone has a strength and that’s what the Meta builds focus on, bringing out their strength as much as is needed while doing as much damage as possible.

My issue with with this thread is that the OP mentions “stacking” without further elaborating it and as a result gets all sorts of replies which I believe talk about completely different things at times.

1. As far as I’m aware, stacking got its extreme popularity when FGS fiery rush and similar skills triggered all their “charges” on top of each other for a huge damage-spike. This has been resolved months ago. Some players still stick to those tactics out of habit.

2. Luring/LOS-ing a boss somewhere to disable or cheapen some of its mechanics should in my opinion not be referred to as “stacking”, because that is incredibly misleading. Stacking is simply standing on top of each others (I will get to that in point 3), it needs further environmental conditions in order to become cheesy. Please be absolutely clear about cause and effect.

3. On the actual “stacking” as in the team clustering together: Melee weapons cleave, blinds, blocks, boons, fields and so on all have limited range. When playing a character making use of those (like, my guardian), I would kinda appreciate when my team-mates stick close to me so I can use my characters toolset to its maximum abilities. I absolutely do not want you to Leeroy around the room. I consider this basics of game-play anyone past beginner level should be aware of and well in line with how I imagine the devs intended this game to be played.

So, @ OP, with which of these three points is your actual issue? Or in case I have not covered it fully, feel free to provide additional ones.

Ideally, better tactics would yield better results. But we aren’t in an ideal world, so we have to consider other factors. A group of uniform skill level, that know each other and/or are using voice chat(optimally both) is going to be able to effectively use more sophisticated tactics than a group of strangers, of different skill levels, who are just typing to each other.
In a PUG, you’re often going to have strangers, who aren’t familiar with each other. You you will probably have players of different skill levels, and communication will probably be limited to typing. Simple tactics, which are already known to the group, have a better chance of being effective than something more sophisticated and esoteric.
You need to also consider the purpose of the PUG. People who stack aren’t doing it for fun. They’re doing it because it is simple, well known, and has proven effective.(in these specific situations, and not necessarily the most effective, just effective) It would be nice if everyone was open to different points of view, but sometimes that isn’t the case.
If you try to convince them to do something else and they’re not receptive, man up, stack with them, get it over with, and don’t group with them again. If the group is of a mindset that isn’t receptive to new tactics, they probably wouldn’t have been effective with them anyway.
Now to address this grave misunderstanding of “Play How I Want”. “Play How I Want”(PHIW) means “I play how I want, you play how you want.” It does not mean “Everyone must play how I want.” Everyone is different, and we’re here for different reasons, with different motivations. Asking for game play options to be removed because you personally don’t approve of them, is IMO, just selfish.(Unless it’s a form of griefing.) If you want a game where everyone plays exactly how you want them to play, you are not being realistic. A single player game is more suited to what you want. Though if the designers didn’t make the game specifically tailored to your play style, you still may have some issues.
Overall, I say we need more valid options, more more effective styles of game play. Not less, never less. A game company that gives it’s players less options for fun and enjoyment is going to hurt it’s player base.

Jerus.4350:

Coulter.2315:

Actually stacking at a wall does help DPS, whirles from FGS and warrior GS do much more damage, reflects can be used to greater effect, bosses often lose abilities nearby (Alpha, Lupi) meaning less dodging and more DPS. Plus the constant might buffing and group support, also 4 people can instantly res if someone drops.

There are lots and lots of benefits to stacking – saying “there isn’t” is lying or being kinda dumb.

I love the replies saying “tried forming a nonstacking group didn’t manage to get one for hours” <- this is because the method is inferior and no one wants to do it…

Can you give me another example of an enemy that loses an attack when walled? And it’s actually not the wall that prevents Lupi from using that attack it’s a proximity thing that just happens to be easy to obtain when walling. Note there is also some debris in the field you can utilize to create that proximity pretty easily and prevent the attack, though easier to screw it up by pushing him out of it.

And you realize that you contradict yourself with the reflect mention considering that you can increase your dps by utilizing reflects on the p3 frenzied blast right? And you can kill Lupi faster off wall by bursting through phase one, saving some burst/vuln for the p2 frenzied blast and utilizing an organized Wall/Feedback to finish him off without using the wallsploit. We’re talking 15s Lupi kills, there’s a reason the speed runs don’t push to the wall, because by the time he gets to the wall he could be dead

Whirlwind and FGS whirl certainly do gain DPS, but is it enough DPS to counter the loss in time from pathing? No where that I know of.

Boon Sharing and quick pickups can easily be done when everyone is simply in melee, no need for stacking, just being close together.

So… nope, you’re wrong.

Get educated before you call someone a liar or dumb.

The benefits to stacking in the way PUG tactics use it is simply control. Easy to see who’s screwing you up when they don’t, easy to maintain positioning because you won’t push the enemy and dodging you remain stationary, and yes, a slight increase in DPS when utilizing those movement attacks, but you lose a notable amount of time gaining that positioning, such that optimal groups simply don’t do it anymore now that FGS exploits are gone. And, if people had been more open minded and tried different tactics even FGS rush would have been a bad idea in many situations allowing even faster kills through the new IceBow meta as we can see with some times actually being decreased since the nerf.

I never said it was the wall that lost Lupi the attack (I know its proximity), Lupi dies instantly in p2 next to the wall too (the single wall kills him – he never reaches p3), pathing can be ignored with Focus 4 pull on Mesmer.

You can’t complain stacking is bad when everyone hitting all the enemies at the same time is the result.. It may not be the method used by speed runners (by this I mean people who are in a competative group with the sole instent of reducing their time) but then 99% of runs aren’t, they are just PUGs doing the most efficient thing for them.

Saying “stacking is bad” is a not true, it is CLEARLY faster than any spread out tactic… (and the most efficient method for any PUG). You are a liar or dumb to say it is “bad” (or you don;t know what “bad” means which comes under dumb).

Lupi doesn’t magically die next to the wall with reflect, you have to place a reflect at the top of the wall catching every one of his AE’s. Also it doesn’t guarantee an instant kill. Go in solo with a guard and do it and you’ll likely see him drop to only 10% or so unless you have all your fury going and pop a pet or something to draw out more projectiles.

But, that’s a pointless argument because again, you can kill him faster by just blowing him up where he stands.

It’s not “stacking is bad” it’s that stacking is inefficient and simply a tool used by less educated players to replicate what can be done by simply using your skills.

Like I said above though, I’ll certainly concede that it has it’s uses in PUGs where you can’t count on players to know what they’re doing.

(PS. You might want to be careful about calling people dumb if you want to avoid the wrath of Gaile and her crew, but feel free to call me whatever you want, I’m a PVFer I have thick enough skin to not care, I just don’t want to see ya punished for a passionate argument that’s not hurting anyone)

Coulter.2315:

Saying “stacking is bad” is a not true, it is CLEARLY faster than any spread out tactic… (and the most efficient method for any PUG). You are a liar or dumb to say it is “bad” (or you don;t know what “bad” means which comes under dumb).

Name calling nice. That’s tasteful.

Corner stacking is almost always a less efficient tactic to use, but it’s a simple tactic easy for pugs to use. I wouldn’t say it’s a bad tactics, but it kind of rub the dungeon community in the wrong way when bad players use this tactic and then complain about it. Most good dungeon runner don’t use this tactic.

Hell, sometime corner stacking is hurting so much the team that it’s hilarious to see pug waiting on a useless corner, while I solo a boss on open field. I don’t remember the exact number, but I think that there is like 5 or 6 place where corner stacking is a legitimate tactic.

So am I understanding this correctly that most people in this thread defending stacking enjoy that kind of gameplay? If you do cool, but I just feel that this isn’t very challenging. Outside of a few crucial moments the majority of boss fights in the game now could be done with parties full of GW1 henchmen – albeit with AI for AoE avoidance added in.

I mean I don’t particularly agree, but I want to understand. Are dungeon runs with bosses that you can just might stack and continuously dps down, a rewarding experience for you guys?

Some of us are defending stacking as a valid form of gameplay, some of us are defending stacking saying it’s the best method, and some of us are just saying that they shouldn’t be eliminating gameplay options, and that there should be more viable options, rather than less.
And I think that you may be confusing “fun” and “rewarding”. You can put up with a certain amount of stuff that isn’t fun in game, if it’s sufficiently rewarding. I’d wager most players who stack, do speed runs, etc… are doing it for profit, not for a fun/enjoyable experience.