Guild Wars 2

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

CMM.6712:

Jaher Dal.9503:

Where is all this havoc people keep talking about? Does it happen while I’m not playing?

Starting to think these posters are paid shills hired by Blizzard come to this forum to create imaginary havoc.

It’s happened, but it’s rare. Mostly it’s players with inflated egos who think that buying a single copy of the game make them majority shareholders. Some are trolls who will agree with any posts that cause disruption and chaos on the forums. And it involves a misunderstanding of the situation, not realizing that the “silent majority” don’t give a kitten about what’s happening on the forums and we represent the .01% of players at either extreme end of the spectrum.

For the most part what goes on here is ignored by the company because it simply doesn’t reflect the entire player base, only the most extreme views, including the

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase

Because it is literally impossible to please everyone, the devs focus on those they can please and let the rest rant about how the game is dying while they continue to cash their paychecks.

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.” —Bill Cosby

Ah the “It’s only the vocal minority” argument again. I remember that from back in the “Temporary content is bad for GW2” threads. Have a look https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Too-Much-Temporary-Content-Can-Only-Harm-GW2/page/3#post2380400 Eventually Anet did seem to agree likely based on the numbers they had themselves.

It’s odd that you quote my post and then make this statement, because I have never posted in that thread. I think my link is more informative:

“While Unpleasable Fanbase has been a problem for any media with a sufficiently large fanbase (you simply cannot please all of the people all of the time), in the Internet Age it takes on a new dimension when even a small minority can make their opinions heard.”

The subject comes up a lot because it’s true. One person making a lot of noise can sound like a hundred. There have even been confirmed examples of someone creating multiple identities on a forum to support his side of an argument, or to give himself enemies to defeat and “turn to the light side,” thus proving himself correct.

It’s just an informative (as example) link to show that vocal minority claim (that you used with saying “For the most part what goes on here is ignored by the company because it simply doesn’t reflect the entire player base, only the most extreme views,”) is a very valid one and does not mean that sort of input should be ignored.

Like I said myself, sure it’s not a perfect representation and sure there are people like the one you mention but that still does not mean the vocal minority can be used to simply try and ignore every viewpoint you don’t agree with because in reality the forum does seem to be a representation of what is going on, and those people who did talk about people leaving did not make that up they did see people leave. Anet did as well. So thats why I liked it, as information / example.

Your link talks about how you should not try to please everybody what is a complete different question.

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Of course, Anet spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year studying the behavior of their customers so they can draw the wrong conclusions and go bankrupt.

But you, being much smarter than anyone at the company, can browse the forums for a few hours and know that the situation is completely different than what Anet has learned about the behavior of their customers.

Obviously.

CMM.6712:

Jaher Dal.9503:

Where is all this havoc people keep talking about? Does it happen while I’m not playing?

Starting to think these posters are paid shills hired by Blizzard come to this forum to create imaginary havoc.

Nope some of us choose not to post but I haven’t logged in since the fiasco with the gem store conversion. It’s pretty much gone way way past the last straw at this point and if I had a dollar for every time they’ve used the “it’s too confusing” excuse for making really really bad decisions I’d be a millionaire by now.

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

I can attest to this. On release, I exited game at about lv5 because there was so much I could do that it felt daunting. Figured I’d give myself a day to work it out in my head.

Two friends I invited during the first trial were stumped at lv5, they’re so used to being placed on rails that without the game telling them what to do they were lost. Only one of them stuck it out and effectively guilted me to help them through leveling to 80. She hates Tasks.

Good luck. May you have cool winds and following seas.

Peace.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Of course, Anet spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year studying the behavior of their customers so they can draw the wrong conclusions and go bankrupt.

But you, being much smarter than anyone at the company, can browse the forums for a few hours and know that the situation is completely different than what Anet has learned about the behavior of their customers.

Obviously.

Shortly after launch, a friend and I were playing and discussing how at long last here was game developed by developers that ‘got it’ and weren’t just a bunch of big mean meanies out to be meaninglessly mean to their hapless, unsuspecting customers. That sentiment did not survive Orr, of course, or the series of joyous updates beginning in November of 2012. The trait system redesign in particular is still dancing quite merrily on the grave of that sentiment.

So, if hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on behavioral studies is what has led to the paving over of much of what made the early stuff, early on, so much ‘they get it, they really get it!’ fun, then alas! It would seem likely we can only expect more pavement in the future, with, perhaps, an informative sign along the roadside: Your gem store dollars at work.

Then again, such a sign would most likely be in violation of the ‘we will spill no beans before we spill the milk’ policy.

Devata.6589:

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Depends on what posts you read. Personally I think you are dismissing the positive (i.e. counter-point) posts that run counter to the story in your mind.

The fact that you use “locked behind” instead of “unlocked at” phrasing denotes that you feel that things have been limited instead of simply segmented differently than you’re used to.

Good example are weapon skills (which you reference) where now you get those automatically at a certain level, for all weapons usable in that class, instead of having to acquire each weapon and grind out the skills for them. Each method has it’s pos/neg points but the weapon leveling was unique to GW2. Anet found that this was a problem and streamline the process and made it more like other MMOs to lower the barrier for new players.

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

GuzziHero.2467:

Problem is, Tolunart, is that I was 100% new to MMO’RPG’*

If this is your first mmorpg, you dont’ know what mmorpg players have to put up with for the last 10 years.

I can assure you GW2 is one of the best mmorpg released in the past 10 years. And I really appreciate what Anet have done.

It is just not easy to make a mmorpg that is supposely to keep a player playing forever.

Castrin.8972:

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

I think it is more like Anet in personal denial. They could follow the blue print like every other game use from the start.

And now they start making raid CDI.

I like many of the way GW2 is designed. I just hope they put more thoughts on how to expand the game.

Tachenon.5270:

Shortly after launch, a friend and I were playing and discussing how at long last here was game developed by developers that ‘got it’ and weren’t just a bunch of big mean meanies out to be meaninglessly mean to their hapless, unsuspecting customers. That sentiment did not survive Orr, of course, or the series of joyous updates beginning in November of 2012. The trait system redesign in particular is still dancing quite merrily on the grave of that sentiment.

So, if hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on behavioral studies is what has led to the paving over of much of what made the early stuff, early on, so much ‘they get it, they really get it!’ fun, then alas! It would seem likely we can only expect more pavement in the future, with, perhaps, an informative sign along the roadside: Your gem store dollars at work.

Then again, such a sign would most likely be in violation of the ‘we will spill no beans before we spill the milk’ policy.

No battle plan survives first contact.

People constantly say in these “goodbye” threads that “hey great, comeback any time, it’s free after all” and yet so many recommend that GW2 should be a sub game and that would fix the “money grubbing Anet ‘thrice cursed’ gem store” issue.

Funny how that sword cuts both ways.

Things change in a game after 2 years, not all for the better. Yet I have found only one change that truly got my dander up. That’s not bad considering I wade through these forums regularly and see so many people up in arms about everything Anet does. I applaud them for their patience in this realm of hissing cats.

Do I love everything they have done? No. Do I miss things gone? Yes. Am I going to quit? Not likely. Adapt and continue to enjoy the game is my goal. It’s not that hard really.

Peace.

laokoko.7403:

Castrin.8972:

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

I think it is more like Anet in personal denial. They could follow the blue print like every other game use from the start.

And now they start making raid CDI.

I like many of the way GW2 is designed. I just hope they put more thoughts on how to expand the game.

I prefer to believe what Anet has said. That the basic foundation needed to be changed to help them to then work on future expansion.

The CDIs are a good example of listening to those here that, though not a true representation of the player base, are a good sounding board. It’s a vocal minority but it’s still a good source of feed back.

I don’t think raids are a bad idea (for example) but Anet should think beyond the boundaries that other MMOs have created.

Peace.

It is still one of the best gaming experiences I’ve had but it has begun to grow quite stale for me so I fully understand the op and wish him the best. I am anxious to see what the patch holds for us tomorrow and my hope is that it is a prelude to some major content additions in 2015. If the LS is indeed the sole future I will likely begin to look for something that has a little more promise as far as new content. I’ve not been a fan of LS and solely LS as it seems to be far too little to keep me invested to any real degree.

Good luck Guzzi. I am saddened when old-timers leave. (Age in game not RL). I hope you find a game that sparks the wonder again.
And maybe someday you’ll find yourself back here again. Either way never stop finding the “fun”.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Of course, Anet spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year studying the behavior of their customers so they can draw the wrong conclusions and go bankrupt.

But you, being much smarter than anyone at the company, can browse the forums for a few hours and know that the situation is completely different than what Anet has learned about the behavior of their customers.

Obviously.

It sounds so nice “Anet spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year studying the behavior of their customers so they can draw the wrong conclusions” but you do understand that if they did not make such mistakes the NPE patch would not have been necessary in the first place.

Yes I do think there are multiple things in the NPE patch that are very bad and I based that on what I see on the forum, from in the game, from personal experience and from common sense.

I also know changes that would help while I do also understand (but disagree) why they don’t.

The “oow it’s a big company they know it better then you do” argument does not do it for me. Have seen many mmo’s been released as P2P and then I said that was a bad move. All those games (with the exception of the most recent, but they still need to prove themselves) had to move away from the P2P model or even went bankrupt because of it. Companies with very ‘smart’ people that spend a lot of money to investigate what the market wants however eventually mainly focused on making the most money that all got proven wrong.

Just because something Is a big company with smart people who spend much money to make the correct decisions does not yet mean they indeed make the correct discussions. The whole financial crisis would not have happened if everything worked like you seem to think it worked.

Serophous.9085:

Don’t forget to give away all your stuff and delete your characters before uninstalling. Also might as well stop coming to the forums. I mean, if you quit for good, why would you care about anything related to the game anymore?

There’s a difference between a former player who checks in every so often to see what has changed, and a troll who uses outdated information to continue to bash the game and pick fights with “white knights.”

Can we give the OP the benefit of the doubt?

Or did I miss some not-so-subtle sarcasm there?

Boneheart.3561:

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

I can attest to this. On release, I exited game at about lv5 because there was so much I could do that it felt daunting. Figured I’d give myself a day to work it out in my head.

Two friends I invited during the first trial were stumped at lv5, they’re so used to being placed on rails that without the game telling them what to do they were lost. Only one of them stuck it out and effectively guilted me to help them through leveling to 80. She hates Tasks.

Yeah the guidance is a problem but as far as that go’s the only real changes they made was adding a pointer to give an idea where to go. That could have been much more.

Not sure what you mean with ‘She hates Tasks’ and why it’s relevant.

LOL the point is not that “big company can’t make mistakes,” it’s that it’s pretty foolish of you to claim that you know more about the game and its players than they do.

Castrin.8972:

Devata.6589:

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Depends on what posts you read. Personally I think you are dismissing the positive (i.e. counter-point) posts that run counter to the story in your mind.

The fact that you use “locked behind” instead of “unlocked at” phrasing denotes that you feel that things have been limited instead of simply segmented differently than you’re used to.

Good example are weapon skills (which you reference) where now you get those automatically at a certain level, for all weapons usable in that class, instead of having to acquire each weapon and grind out the skills for them. Each method has it’s pos/neg points but the weapon leveling was unique to GW2. Anet found that this was a problem and streamline the process and made it more like other MMOs to lower the barrier for new players.

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

The old one made more sense in a way of learning. And it was so fast you can’t consider that a grind.

The reason they did this is likely to have more stuff to work towards and that is indeed something that is missing in GW2. Now you know.. ‘the next skill unlocks in 3 levels, let’s go on’. Or at least thats the idea.

However I do feel that this is not the correct change to achieve that. That is fine for the other right spells but then again, you only have 10 spells so you can’t really use that very well as an unlocking system to work towards. Then there simply isn’t enough for you to do in the beginning. (only having 3 skills is kinda boring)

MMO’s have always used rewards as intensive and so that is something they need to work on. Just as exploring. In GW2 exploring has become a task of striping of a list with places. Many people don’t consider that fun. And most rewards are just a currency grind. There you have some of your problems.

So I see what they are trying to do, and I agree with them that thats where they are lacking but no I don’t think the NPE is the approach to solve that (well parts of it are).

tolunart.2095:

LOL the point is not that “big company can’t make mistakes,” it’s that it’s pretty foolish of you to claim that you know more about the game and its players than they do.

Know more about the game and it’s players? No I don’t say I know more about that. But I do think I have a better idea where some problems are and where solutions are.

Back when Anet was still defending the temporary content I said it was bad, they eventually also concluded it was bad. That is an example of where I got proved right.

Even before launch I talked about how events where great but weren’t able to completely replace quest and imo thats one of the reasons why the thinks they now try to fix didn’t work in the first place. Like the better guidance they try to introduce. Thats one element that traditional quest do and events can’t really provide in that way.

Sometimes it’s possible that a company gets to focus on a one thing or one approach that they lose touch with the player-base. That all does not I know everything better but in general that many of there player-base knows those thinks better.

Castrin.8972:

Tachenon.5270:

Shortly after launch, a friend and I were playing and discussing how at long last here was game developed by developers that ‘got it’ and weren’t just a bunch of big mean meanies out to be meaninglessly mean to their hapless, unsuspecting customers. That sentiment did not survive Orr, of course, or the series of joyous updates beginning in November of 2012. The trait system redesign in particular is still dancing quite merrily on the grave of that sentiment.

So, if hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on behavioral studies is what has led to the paving over of much of what made the early stuff, early on, so much ‘they get it, they really get it!’ fun, then alas! It would seem likely we can only expect more pavement in the future, with, perhaps, an informative sign along the roadside: Your gem store dollars at work.

Then again, such a sign would most likely be in violation of the ‘we will spill no beans before we spill the milk’ policy.

No battle plan survives first contact.

People constantly say in these “goodbye” threads that “hey great, comeback any time, it’s free after all” and yet so many recommend that GW2 should be a sub game and that would fix the “money grubbing Anet ‘thrice cursed’ gem store” issue.

Funny how that sword cuts both ways.

Things change in a game after 2 years, not all for the better. Yet I have found only one change that truly got my dander up. That’s not bad considering I wade through these forums regularly and see so many people up in arms about everything Anet does. I applaud them for their patience in this realm of hissing cats.

Do I love everything they have done? No. Do I miss things gone? Yes. Am I going to quit? Not likely. Adapt and continue to enjoy the game is my goal. It’s not that hard really.

Peace.

“So many recommend that GW2 should be a sub game.”
Haven’t seen many of those.

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

LOL the point is not that “big company can’t make mistakes,” it’s that it’s pretty foolish of you to claim that you know more about the game and its players than they do.

Know more about the game and it’s players? No I don’t say I know more about that.

Devata.6589:

I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think.

Good luck.

I’ll continue to play and watch the playerbase change around me.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

LOL the point is not that “big company can’t make mistakes,” it’s that it’s pretty foolish of you to claim that you know more about the game and its players than they do.

Know more about the game and it’s players? No I don’t say I know more about that.

Devata.6589:

I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think.

Yeah. The players in general (not I) know better what they want and the forums do at least give an idea of what that is.

Those people have been right with things where Anet was wrong (as I did show with examples) so why could they not be right again now?

If we where to believe you, because Anet is a big company with a lot of money and so can’t make mistakes. Only problem with that is that history has already proven you wrong.

tigirius.9014:

CMM.6712:

Jaher Dal.9503:

Where is all this havoc people keep talking about? Does it happen while I’m not playing?

Starting to think these posters are paid shills hired by Blizzard come to this forum to create imaginary havoc.

Nope some of us choose not to post but I haven’t logged in since the fiasco with the gem store conversion. It’s pretty much gone way way past the last straw at this point and if I had a dollar for every time they’ve used the “it’s too confusing” excuse for making really really bad decisions I’d be a millionaire by now.

I agree with what you’ve said, and was really disgusted by the gem store thing, enough to get a 3 day vacation :P I haven’t reached the point of leaving and not posting yet, but I do play far less.

I will admit I am looking forward to the new story episode. I hope it’s something worthwhile and people will like. The bad decisions/mistakes/policies lately are troubling though and I hope they see that and reverse course.

Vayne.8563:

Nah, these people aren’t paid shills anymore than I am. They’re people who are legitimately disenfranchised.

They simply think that this is some special case and that every game doesn’t have people like them in numbers.

Not everyone is going to like a given game. That’s just logic. I don’t like WoW but I acknowledge there are people out there who do.

There are people out there who like Guild Wars 2 as well..but that doesn’t mean people who don’t aren’t on someone’s payroll. I suspect any game I end up enjoying won’t likely be one of the most popular games, because I seldom follow the herd.

Here’s my one problem with your post here. It’s not that people don’t like the game. It’s actually the opposite, these people LOVE some aspect of the game, the problem is when the development team ignores that element.

I love/loved/still love EQ it just got old for me, it held me for 15 years, why? because for the most part they maintained the same plan from day 1 to current (they just released another expansion!)

DCUO however I absolutely LOVED, my god was it a brilliant game enough to finally steal me away from EQ. But, about march this year they decided to do a huge revamp to the entire combat system… well… that’s what I loved, so why should I stay? I was turned away instantly.

The complaints I see in GW2 are pretty consistently “they’re ignoring <insert favorite element of the game here>”

Have they truly built on WvW? not really, but they did try with EoTM, just whatever happened there, it’s not what the true WvW fans wanted, and that’s why it’s nothing more than a karma farm and a place to pick on new players at this point.

sPVP? where are the other game modes? I mean is that really asking too much?

Dungeons, we’ve gotten a few fractals and 1 dungeon that came in at a loss of another dungeon, so a net gain of a few fractals. Fractal fans were kicked in the groin with the patch, promised a leaderboard that never came, then got a CDI that about the only thing they did from it was adjusting dredge fractal. I think it’s fair that people feel disenfranchised and bored with the stale content that’s “not getting anything anytime soon”.

That’s my problem with this game and a lot of games. When the development team steers away from their initial design it just doesn’t seem to ever end well. While LS is cool, these core aspects of the game need some love too.

Now we’re talking about raids? I mean holy hell, why not take whatever time you’d spend on that and make a new Borderlands map for WvW to rotate with the current one, that’d make a lot of people happy. Cut a section of it out and make a new PvP map out of it, and create a new game mode, TDM or CTF are two very popular game types. Add another path to a dungeon or better yet just plan to add 1 dungeon a year, that’s really not that much is it?

Either way, I too feel there’s no real point to asking for this stuff, I still enjoy playing very much due to friends I’ve found along the way but I felt like posting this after reading your post as I don’t feel that these player don’t like the game, they just liked what the game was when they started, not what ANet has been working on since. You don’t get this passionate about something you don’t like.

I’m going to go on record and state my belief that most “goodbye” posts are really, “I’d stay if…” posts or even, “I’m not going anywhere, but really want this change” posts.. With Guzzi, I’m not sure that s/he’d stay if ANet were to suddenly provide things s/he would like to see. Sometimes people just get fed up.

Anyway… I hope things work out for you, Guzzi. I’m at the point where GW2 is the only game I play, despite not being satisfied with much of what’s been done to it since launch. I’m getting to the point where I think modern MMO’s are mostly just time and money sinks which present the illusion of fun. I hope that you can find a gem amidst all the dross going forward.

Guzzi – Sorry to see you go. I appreciated your posts on the forum. Let us know if you run into another good game that’s less hell-bent on imploding. I suspect its was the inattention to the traits issue that was the last straw? I’ve been reading the trait thread since its inception and commenting occasionally. Right after the April patch I saw that change to the trait system as the single biggest threat to GW2 long term and still think that’s the case. Perversely, the trait change and the NPE doesn’t have much of an impact on me since I would only make a new character at this point if ANet decided to implement a new class or race in game. Would love it if that happened but I’m not expecting to happen. Like the change to Megaserver drove out a lot of RPers, those changes (traits+NPE) drove out a lot of Altaholics. Not quite as much fun playing a game that’s slowly killing itself by driving off portions of its player base.

A tale for the vociferous defenders of ANet’s decision-making prowess: I was playing the “Mad King Says” event last Saturday. With all of about 10 other players. I remember playing GW1 near the end of the new content and there were ALWAYS seas of people playing that holiday event. Keep in mind that GW1 at that point had a tremendous number of things you could do (three expansions in after several years). At that point in GW1 people had choices, lots of play what they want choices, but they still showed up to play “Mad King Says.” Megaserver delivered 10 whole people for that event in GW2 on the Saturday afternoon after Halloween.

I question ANet’s decisions because I play the game and see the impact their decisions have had on it. I suspect my turn to be part of the “sacrificed for the good of the game player base” will come sometime in 2015 when ANet yet again fails to release any expansion content . . .

just quit and please don’t say goodbye. Who cares???

GuzziHero.2467:

I’ve given up any hope of any positive reaction from Anet over any of our voiced concerns. I simply cannot expend any more energy hoping for improvement.

This isn’t so much a goodbye thread, as a well wishing to everyone who is still playing. I hope they finally fix all the havoc they have wrought.

All the best.

If you’re serious, I’m working on a legendary and would be thrilled with anything you don’t need anymore. Best of luck in whatever game you play next!

Devata.6589:

Yeah. The players in general (not I) know better what they want and the forums do at least give an idea of what that is.

Those people have been right with things where Anet was wrong (as I did show with examples) so why could they not be right again now?

If we where to believe you, because Anet is a big company with a lot of money and so can’t make mistakes. Only problem with that is that history has already proven you wrong.

Your own statements contradict themselves, and the only response you can make is to restate inaccurate accusations. Done with you.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

tolunart.2095:

As an example, Anet took the time to research the behavior of their target market and found a significant number of potential players were turned away from the game by having too much thrown at them at once. These are players who are extremely unlikely to visit the forums and express their opinions about the game, because if they are confused by the game itself they would probably have trouble navigating the forums.

Therefore, the forum activity does not reflect these players, Anet found them by examining different data. The forums represent, instead, a specific subset of their players who, while important to the overall health of the game, are not the players Anet chose to focus on for their changes to the starting zones.

“Listening to the forums” in this case, would have the opposite effect than what Anet desired – making the game more welcoming to new players.

You really believe that yourself?

You really think less people will leave because the hearths events are dumped down and weapon skills are not locked behind levels?

Well I don’t. I think that the reaction we have seen on the forums in much closer to the truth of what also those new players think. (for those changed people dislike to much, there where also some good changed in the NPE)

Of course, Anet spends hundreds of thousands of dollars every year studying the behavior of their customers so they can draw the wrong conclusions and go bankrupt.

But you, being much smarter than anyone at the company, can browse the forums for a few hours and know that the situation is completely different than what Anet has learned about the behavior of their customers.

Obviously.

Actually companies spend millions of dollars on research, draw the wrong conclusions, and go bankrupt every day.

It’s really not that unusual.

laokoko.7403:

Castrin.8972:

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

I think it is more like Anet in personal denial. They could follow the blue print like every other game use from the start.

And now they start making raid CDI.

I like many of the way GW2 is designed. I just hope they put more thoughts on how to expand the game.

Anet can’t be in personal denial, as Anet isn’t a person. I half joking by saying that but there’s another issue here which is relatively prevalent on the forums.

People assume Anet thinks with one mind and it has ideas and emotions that are consistent with what people see in game. I’m pretty sure that not everyone who works at Anet agrees with every decision. I’m pretty sure there are creative differences. And I’m pretty sure that sometimes some people win and somethings others win. There may indeed be specific people at Anet who are in denial, but I find it unlikely that everyone or even most people are.

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Castrin.8972:

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

I think it is more like Anet in personal denial. They could follow the blue print like every other game use from the start.

And now they start making raid CDI.

I like many of the way GW2 is designed. I just hope they put more thoughts on how to expand the game.

Anet can’t be in personal denial, as Anet isn’t a person. I half joking by saying that but there’s another issue here which is relatively prevalent on the forums.

People assume Anet thinks with one mind and it has ideas and emotions that are consistent with what people see in game. I’m pretty sure that not everyone who works at Anet agrees with every decision. I’m pretty sure there are creative differences. And I’m pretty sure that sometimes some people win and somethings others win. There may indeed be specific people at Anet who are in denial, but I find it unlikely that everyone or even most people are.

Here in the USA, corporations are persons. Actually they are superior persons. You can’t put a corporation in prison for instance.

Bellizare.5816:

Actually companies spend millions of dollars on research, draw the wrong conclusions, and go bankrupt every day.

It’s really not that unusual.

The unusual part is that if it’s so easy to tell all that research is wrong that a random person on the Internet can figure it out after spending a few hours reading the forums, then the devs (who are generally speaking a lot smarter and know a lot more about the game than a random person on the Internet) would have already figured it out before spending all that money.

Therefore, the premise that “I know more about the game than the group of trained professionals who have worked with the game every day for years” is utter nonsense. You can try to justify it all you want, but I’m not going to treat it as anything more than the inflated-ego BS that it is.

Bellizare.5816:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Castrin.8972:

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

I think it is more like Anet in personal denial. They could follow the blue print like every other game use from the start.

And now they start making raid CDI.

I like many of the way GW2 is designed. I just hope they put more thoughts on how to expand the game.

Anet can’t be in personal denial, as Anet isn’t a person. I half joking by saying that but there’s another issue here which is relatively prevalent on the forums.

People assume Anet thinks with one mind and it has ideas and emotions that are consistent with what people see in game. I’m pretty sure that not everyone who works at Anet agrees with every decision. I’m pretty sure there are creative differences. And I’m pretty sure that sometimes some people win and somethings others win. There may indeed be specific people at Anet who are in denial, but I find it unlikely that everyone or even most people are.

Here in the USA, corporations are persons. Actually they are superior persons. You can’t put a corporation in prison for instance.

Legally but not literally.

Several issues here, why bother uninstalling the game…unless you have a small HD, otherwise just leave it in case you decide to check in one day…it won’t hurt you or your computer.

Also, chew on this…which market would you rather try to capture(and these aren’t real numbers, just numbers for you to think about)… the 25 million PC gamers, or the 1 billion+ Facebook gamers?

tolunart.2095:

Bellizare.5816:

Actually companies spend millions of dollars on research, draw the wrong conclusions, and go bankrupt every day.

It’s really not that unusual.

The unusual part is that if it’s so easy to tell all that research is wrong that a random person on the Internet can figure it out after spending a few hours reading the forums, then the devs (who are generally speaking a lot smarter and know a lot more about the game than a random person on the Internet) would have already figured it out before spending all that money.

Therefore, the premise that “I know more about the game than the group of trained professionals who have worked with the game every day for years” is utter nonsense. You can try to justify it all you want, but I’m not going to treat it as anything more than the inflated-ego BS that it is.

I am not a game development company and know little of their ways, but it seems likely that the time for ‘all that research’, especially if it required mass quantities of cash, was before launch. Heck, before beginning work on the product. Since they are changing so many of the things that they chose to deploy at launch, do you suppose they did ‘all that research’ then and somehow got it all wrong, and are now operating from information gleaned from a second round of ‘all that research’, or are they just now getting around to doing ‘all that research’ for the first time and are currently struggling to utilize the information thereby obtained to make up for their lack of foresight?

Vayne.8563:

Bellizare.5816:

Vayne.8563:

laokoko.7403:

Castrin.8972:

Simplicity helps people get into the game faster. Almost all other MMOs use a level based system to unlock skills. If you don’t believe Anet studied their own data to figure that out and make a determined change to get more players in the game longer,then I don’t think any kind of discussing, number evidence or comparisons, will change our mind.

I think it is more like Anet in personal denial. They could follow the blue print like every other game use from the start.

And now they start making raid CDI.

I like many of the way GW2 is designed. I just hope they put more thoughts on how to expand the game.

Anet can’t be in personal denial, as Anet isn’t a person. I half joking by saying that but there’s another issue here which is relatively prevalent on the forums.

People assume Anet thinks with one mind and it has ideas and emotions that are consistent with what people see in game. I’m pretty sure that not everyone who works at Anet agrees with every decision. I’m pretty sure there are creative differences. And I’m pretty sure that sometimes some people win and somethings others win. There may indeed be specific people at Anet who are in denial, but I find it unlikely that everyone or even most people are.

Here in the USA, corporations are persons. Actually they are superior persons. You can’t put a corporation in prison for instance.

Legally but not literally.

Yes, but corporate entities are often in denial. Just like non-corporate entities.

Tachenon.5270:

tolunart.2095:

Bellizare.5816:

Actually companies spend millions of dollars on research, draw the wrong conclusions, and go bankrupt every day.

It’s really not that unusual.

The unusual part is that if it’s so easy to tell all that research is wrong that a random person on the Internet can figure it out after spending a few hours reading the forums, then the devs (who are generally speaking a lot smarter and know a lot more about the game than a random person on the Internet) would have already figured it out before spending all that money.

Therefore, the premise that “I know more about the game than the group of trained professionals who have worked with the game every day for years” is utter nonsense. You can try to justify it all you want, but I’m not going to treat it as anything more than the inflated-ego BS that it is.

I am not a game development company and know little of their ways, but it seems likely that the time for ‘all that research’, especially if it required mass quantities of cash, was before launch. Heck, before beginning work on the product. Since they are changing so many of the things that they chose to deploy at launch, do you suppose they did ‘all that research’ then and somehow got it all wrong, and are now operating from information gleaned from a second round of ‘all that research’, or are they just now getting around to doing ‘all that research’ for the first time and are currently struggling to utilize the information thereby obtained to make up for their lack of foresight?

From what I can glean from what’s been said, the research is new, not from launch. I’m guessing that free weekends didn’t turn into purchases at a high enough rate. I’m guessing that they commissioned the research based on that.

I’m guessing they made the changes based on the research because retaining more players in the early game is better for the later game.

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

tolunart.2095:

Bellizare.5816:

Actually companies spend millions of dollars on research, draw the wrong conclusions, and go bankrupt every day.

It’s really not that unusual.

The unusual part is that if it’s so easy to tell all that research is wrong that a random person on the Internet can figure it out after spending a few hours reading the forums, then the devs (who are generally speaking a lot smarter and know a lot more about the game than a random person on the Internet) would have already figured it out before spending all that money.

Therefore, the premise that “I know more about the game than the group of trained professionals who have worked with the game every day for years” is utter nonsense. You can try to justify it all you want, but I’m not going to treat it as anything more than the inflated-ego BS that it is.

I am not a game development company and know little of their ways, but it seems likely that the time for ‘all that research’, especially if it required mass quantities of cash, was before launch. Heck, before beginning work on the product. Since they are changing so many of the things that they chose to deploy at launch, do you suppose they did ‘all that research’ then and somehow got it all wrong, and are now operating from information gleaned from a second round of ‘all that research’, or are they just now getting around to doing ‘all that research’ for the first time and are currently struggling to utilize the information thereby obtained to make up for their lack of foresight?

From what I can glean from what’s been said, the research is new, not from launch. I’m guessing that free weekends didn’t turn into purchases at a high enough rate. I’m guessing that they commissioned the research based on that.

I’m guessing they made the changes based on the research because retaining more players in the early game is better for the later game.

Yes, but research does not guarantee success. Often quite the opposite. Research interpretation is horribly muddied by expected outcomes. Hence Japan war gamed and won WW II.

Bellizare.5816:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

tolunart.2095:

Bellizare.5816:

Actually companies spend millions of dollars on research, draw the wrong conclusions, and go bankrupt every day.

It’s really not that unusual.

The unusual part is that if it’s so easy to tell all that research is wrong that a random person on the Internet can figure it out after spending a few hours reading the forums, then the devs (who are generally speaking a lot smarter and know a lot more about the game than a random person on the Internet) would have already figured it out before spending all that money.

Therefore, the premise that “I know more about the game than the group of trained professionals who have worked with the game every day for years” is utter nonsense. You can try to justify it all you want, but I’m not going to treat it as anything more than the inflated-ego BS that it is.

I am not a game development company and know little of their ways, but it seems likely that the time for ‘all that research’, especially if it required mass quantities of cash, was before launch. Heck, before beginning work on the product. Since they are changing so many of the things that they chose to deploy at launch, do you suppose they did ‘all that research’ then and somehow got it all wrong, and are now operating from information gleaned from a second round of ‘all that research’, or are they just now getting around to doing ‘all that research’ for the first time and are currently struggling to utilize the information thereby obtained to make up for their lack of foresight?

From what I can glean from what’s been said, the research is new, not from launch. I’m guessing that free weekends didn’t turn into purchases at a high enough rate. I’m guessing that they commissioned the research based on that.

I’m guessing they made the changes based on the research because retaining more players in the early game is better for the later game.

Yes, but research does not guarantee success. Often quite the opposite. Research interpretation is horribly muddied by expected outcomes. Hence Japan war gamed and won WW II.

You’re 100% right. Research doesn’t guarantee success. Nor does it guarantee failure. I surely, however, would trust research over some raised voices on the forums…unless there’s such a huge outcry that it’s a unanimous thing.

Like the commander tag thing, or the gold to gems thing.

Vayne.8563:

Bellizare.5816:

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

tolunart.2095:

Bellizare.5816:

Actually companies spend millions of dollars on research, draw the wrong conclusions, and go bankrupt every day.

It’s really not that unusual.

The unusual part is that if it’s so easy to tell all that research is wrong that a random person on the Internet can figure it out after spending a few hours reading the forums, then the devs (who are generally speaking a lot smarter and know a lot more about the game than a random person on the Internet) would have already figured it out before spending all that money.

Therefore, the premise that “I know more about the game than the group of trained professionals who have worked with the game every day for years” is utter nonsense. You can try to justify it all you want, but I’m not going to treat it as anything more than the inflated-ego BS that it is.

I am not a game development company and know little of their ways, but it seems likely that the time for ‘all that research’, especially if it required mass quantities of cash, was before launch. Heck, before beginning work on the product. Since they are changing so many of the things that they chose to deploy at launch, do you suppose they did ‘all that research’ then and somehow got it all wrong, and are now operating from information gleaned from a second round of ‘all that research’, or are they just now getting around to doing ‘all that research’ for the first time and are currently struggling to utilize the information thereby obtained to make up for their lack of foresight?

From what I can glean from what’s been said, the research is new, not from launch. I’m guessing that free weekends didn’t turn into purchases at a high enough rate. I’m guessing that they commissioned the research based on that.

I’m guessing they made the changes based on the research because retaining more players in the early game is better for the later game.

Yes, but research does not guarantee success. Often quite the opposite. Research interpretation is horribly muddied by expected outcomes. Hence Japan war gamed and won WW II.

You’re 100% right. Research doesn’t guarantee success. Nor does it guarantee failure. I surely, however, would trust research over some raised voices on the forums…unless there’s such a huge outcry that it’s a unanimous thing.

Like the commander tag thing, or the gold to gems thing.

Well said.

Bellizare.5816:

Yes, but research does not guarantee success. Often quite the opposite. Research interpretation is horribly muddied by expected outcomes. Hence Japan war gamed and won WW II.

I’m not saying it’s infallible. But the opinion of a trained professional with solid data to study is better than wild guessing by a random passer-by.

The forums are full of armchair developers who have no access whatsoever to Anet’s data, but say that the obvious and simple answer to all their problems is to do X. Whether that’s “release and expansion,” “nerf warriors,” “precursor crafting,” or whatever, they claim absolute certainty when they don’t even have basic data like how many players log in at least once a month.

I’m not saying those players never have a point, but they get mad because “Anet isn’t listening,” when their demands are not immediately met. Anet listens to the players, and studies the data and discusses potential changes to the game and their consequences, and makes a decision based on all of these things, not just “warriorbob.1234 posted on the forums that we need to redesign all the dungeons from the ground up – do it now!”

Many major and minor changes happened because players wanted them – but not just because players wanted them. Ascended gear and fractals, tougher boss fights, the wardrobe, changes to traits, even the NPE changes happened because Anet identified things that their players want or problems that made the game less fun for players.

It’s simply not possible to please every player, no matter what changes are made (or even if no changes are made), someone will complain, so success is not measured on the forums. The forums will gather complaints, and nothing can change this. The see the results when players who haven’t logged on in months come back and start playing the game again. When box sales increase because it’s easier for new players to learn the game. When gem sales increase because they offer the things more players want.

If that doesn’t happen, they collect data about that too, and discuss what went wrong and how to fix it. But doing what some random player on the forums says to do – solely because some random player said to do it is pure foolishness and a waste of time and money. It’s like investing in a “hot stock tip” given to you by the guy who makes your morning latte without checking out the tip to see if it’s real. It could be, but why should you take his word for it? If he’s such an expert on the stock market, why is he making coffee for $11 an hour?

echo.2053:

Boneheart.3561:

Not a single ’I’m mad’ poster has given me even a copper of their stuff. They say they love the game, why don’t they give to the people that still play it.

C’mon, Guzzi. I could use some Ectoplasm, to Salvage into Dust.

Because your suppose to catch them prior to them quitting the game not afterward. Why would you reinstall and relog back into a game you no longer enjoy? It doesn’t really matter if he makes random people who still play the game happy or not if he isn’t gonna play the game anymore.

On a side note though if you give him a reason “worth” his time to relog in pretty sure youll be able to get that stuff

Good point. New suggestion: But a donate button on the forums, so when someone makes a leaving-thread they can donate their stuff to some random lucky forumite. Granted giving away your stuff would make it very difficult to come back… which is very often the case.

Hi everyone,

Since this thread couldn’t stay constructive, we’ll now close it.

Thank you for your understanding.