Guild Wars 2

Death should be advoided….question is why. GW2 has systematically removed death penalties to where there is no consequences to wipes other then Time to try again. Because of this anything you do or accomplish is technically easy because no one ever counts the amount of deaths required. Everyone is also equivalently skilled cause there is no skill required to stay alive. I am bias but i would like this to be a discussion of death in GW2 and how you as a player feel it should be represented.

Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game. It is so easy to level in GW2 I honestly think you should be reset to level 1 honestly there would be no zerkers then and Anet would finally be able to dish out loot for bosses. End game wise it only takes you like 2 weeks to make an 80. Would remove a lot of boredum that is for sure.

What would you put in place. The issue with the penilty being greater is the fact that GW2 is more for new/casual mmo players. Yeah the penalty for death later in game is low, but to newer player’s it works because you don’t have as much money, and a silver to revive may seem like a lot. But what do you suggest? Making wp cost relate to your lvl? Making it so you can only revive at certain wp?

As weird as it sounds, I was kind of mad at the update to remove cost for armor repairs.

Ironically it’s where most of my money went because I kind of suck at the game, but I felt accomplished when I did succeed, and there was more at stake to loosing. Now when I get downed in combat I’m all “eh whatever”, when before I would frantically struggle and use vengeance always.

Not sure if on the same page but my opinion on death.

I whole-heartedly agree with the fact that death is meaningless in this game and carries no consequence if you should die. However resetting people to lvl 1 is so far in the extreme that it would never be considered. Why? I’ll just give one example atm – You’re in a fight and disconnect, then return to find your character reverted to level 1.

The old GW1 Death Penalty would be nice if applied here in GW2 however. It gave a -15% penalty to all stats and damage, if I remember correctly, every time you died. Maxing out at -60%.

Omar Aschi Popp.7496:

As weird as it sounds, I was kind of mad at the update to remove cost for armor repairs.

Don’t think its weird, Omar, as I felt the same way. It really took the only penalty for dying out of the game. Even though is wasn’t much of one to begin with at least there was that.

Squad wipe of a dungeon path could force reset of the path. There is a lot of things that could be implemented. Broken armor cant be repaired for example only salvaged.

Games are always risk vs reward base harder something is always greater the reward usually. Reason rewards are always same in GW2 is because nothing in game has consiquences death has no meaning currently in GW2.

There are extreams to this which is not what I’m suggesting because to much negative progress equal no forward progress.

Permadeath all the way .. maybe then some people will stop complaining how easy this game is.

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

Not really .. people always complain how easy this game is, while they have maybe died already 100+ times. With permadeath 1 single death will suddenly make the game feel much harder.

If you play the way that you really avoid death in any way, you will notice that there are quite some mobs that can really be very nasty and you can die fast if you don’t expect that.

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

For every risk there is a reward if there is no risk there is no reward. Death is something that forces you to question your actions is the risk really worth it is it worth trying to answer the question if i might be shot in the head. What reward to you really expect for answering what is 2+2. 1c

No one will rome the map alone again that is for sure.

Perm death is the extreme of this discussion with account death an forcing you to buy a new game is probably only thing more extreme.

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

I think your logic is flawed.

The threat of consequence for a risky action is a great motivator. For some people the threat alone would make it harder for them, because they’d take measures to avoid it (as they should). While others would find it more difficult if they did indeed die in the game and it had some form of penalty (granted being reset is far too extreme).

Currently in GW2…

Player: 2+2=4
ArenaNet: Good job! You’re doing great.

Another player: 2+2=22
ArenaNet: Good job! You’re also doing great.

Death penalty (or more generally, a failure penalty) in a mmo that doesn’t have a good risk / reward system is somewhat pointless. It would be more of an annoyance than an interesting game element. The game simply isn’t designed something like this in mind.
Death penalty works a lot better in games that have proper risk / reward structure such as Eve online.

Another player: 2+2=22
ArenaNet: Good job! You’re also doing great.

That’s not the case though. It’s more like this:

Player: 2+2=22
ArenaNet: try again.

Player:2+2=22
CCP: buy another plex pls.

Player: 2+2=4
ArenaNet: Correct! You can get your reward from the gem shop.

Again, the consequences of failure are unrelated to the difficulty of the problem.

Would a jumping puzzle get harder if we charged you 1 gold for every fall? No.

Your palms might sweat more, but that is a different issue.

Or is it that the establishment of a good risk/reward system must begin with a death penalty?

Fafnir.5124:

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

For every risk there is a reward if there is no risk there is no reward. Death is something that forces you to question your actions is the risk really worth it is it worth trying to answer the question if i might be shot in the head. What reward to you really expect for answering what is 2+2. 1c

No one will rome the map alone again that is for sure.

Perm death is the extreme of this discussion with account death an forcing you to buy a new game is probably only thing more extreme.

Unless you need a valid ID to activate your game when you buy it, and when you die you get banned from the game forever.

On topic of death penalty I don’t care either way there are times when dieing is bad and times where it can’t be avoided. Plus then you have to figure out if you die in SPvP or WvW is the penalty the same or do you need to code in different penalties.

Naevius.3185:

Again, the consequences of failure are unrelated to the difficulty of the problem.

Would a jumping puzzle get harder if we charged you 1 gold for every fall? No.

Your palms might sweat more, but that is a different issue.

and if there was 5 gold at the end wouldn’t that make you try harder?

I like the idea that broken armor cant be repaired though…

Fafnir.5124:

Naevius.3185:

Again, the consequences of failure are unrelated to the difficulty of the problem.

Would a jumping puzzle get harder if we charged you 1 gold for every fall? No.

Your palms might sweat more, but that is a different issue.

and if there was 5 gold at the end wouldn’t that make you try harder?

Still doesn’t affect the difficulty.

Death penalties, if you boil it down, are just time sinks. Which is why they are more common in subscription MMOs.

Fafnir.5124:

Naevius.3185:

Again, the consequences of failure are unrelated to the difficulty of the problem.

Would a jumping puzzle get harder if we charged you 1 gold for every fall? No.

Your palms might sweat more, but that is a different issue.

and if there was 5 gold at the end wouldn’t that make you try harder?

True and true.

But to have people admit to not caring whether they die or not because it doesn’t matter, oh and by the way people do admit to this, and just return into the fight without a care…. It just adds to the half-aware, spam 1 fests that we have now. Why? Because they don’t have to care about dying. They don’t have to care about dodging, reviving, listening to people, etc etc. Why? Because there is no consequence and it gets things done.

Risk vs. Reward.

I would find it far more rewarding to play in a game that actually had a penalty for stupidity, instead of one that fosters it.

Naevius.3185:

Death penalties, if you boil it down, are just time sinks.

That is your stance?

Guild Wars 2 is a time sink. Every game is a time sink.

Naevius.3185:

Fafnir.5124:

Naevius.3185:

Again, the consequences of failure are unrelated to the difficulty of the problem.

Would a jumping puzzle get harder if we charged you 1 gold for every fall? No.

Your palms might sweat more, but that is a different issue.

and if there was 5 gold at the end wouldn’t that make you try harder?

Still doesn’t affect the difficulty.

Death penalties, if you boil it down, are just time sinks. Which is why they are more common in subscription MMOs.

They can be more than just time sinks, they add an element of tension that some people enjoy.

Moreover they can actually impact upon the difficulty of a task as people panic.

That said, in this uber casual mmo, harsh death penalties would make zero sense.

Fenrir.3609:

… harsh death penalties would make zero sense.

Exactly right. I wouldn’t be asking for anything extreme or harsh here.

Death Penalty (DP) is an effect that decreases a character’s maximum health and energy by 1-60%. It is acquired by dying and can be reduced by gaining experience, countered by Morale Boosts, or removed by consumables. – Guild Wars wiki

A -15% penalty for every death. Either don’t die (preferred) OR gain experience to remove it. Consumables may be too easy in GW2, versus what it was in GW1, as we just have SO MANY of them. However if we made it to where 1 nourishment removed 1% of penalty, perhaps that would be a decent gold sink? It would even raise the prices of all those cheap foods on the market.

Permadeath and level resets in a themepark made for the masses.
Lovely idea.
Although I see mounts being in the game before this,so hold your
breath a bit and it will be done.
Or maybe not?

Thanks for the leLs

Not everyone is asking for “Permadeath and level resets”.

no one can stop Death!

Most are are agreement there has to be something. death penalties range from nothing to permadeath. Could have areas, say they reintroduce underworld cause of grenth weakening hold over his realm it is a region of permadeath cause someone is trying to take over and paths can revolve around that. Nothing is saying these effects have to be global either. Death system has to be revamped though after they significantly nerfed it to the ground.

I prefer the die-revive-try-again model myself. Death should be an acknowledgement of my failure and the prelude to another attempt to overcome the challenge (too bad GW2 has little of this, but think about how single player games handle safe points).

One thing that would be funny if you die you pay 1g to person that rezs you. Some berserkers would probably hate that though.

Why not do self-imposed death penalties?

TheDaiBish.9735:

Why not do self-imposed death penalties?

For what a drop multiplier coin multiplier? Free legendary?

Although it could be covered under a gamble with grenth though self imposed difficulties and such.

Fafnir.5124:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Why not do self-imposed death penalties?

For what a drop multiplier coin multiplier? Free legendary?

Where did I ask for a free legendary?

TheDaiBish.9735:

Fafnir.5124:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Why not do self-imposed death penalties?

For what a drop multiplier coin multiplier? Free legendary?

Where did I ask for a free legendary?

no no no….not point im making even if you establish self imposed difficulty how would establish reward based on difficulty easily.

I personally like 24 hour lock out on death as a death penalty. Would be per character but its effect of death would still be significantly felt.

Death penalties tend to impact games like this rather negatively. It creates an environment where people are much more careful, as well as make people much more hostile towards one another. Here are some things I noticed in games that have moderate to severe death penalties.

• People don’t try content until level cap with full equipment. If a dungeon is marked at level 20, people still won’t do it until they reach level cap. This is because death penalty slows them down on the way to the cap (either with an exp or gold penalty). Most dungeons and new areas will be avoided by the general population until a guide is posted. New areas won’t be visited until the player is overleveled for that area’s level rating (won’t go into a level 20 zone until you’re level 30).
• Difficult content will be ignored. Even with good rewards, people will avoid the hard content. Boss Blitz causes a lot of deaths, for instance. People would avoid this event completely if there was a harsh death penalty, and people will always rely on the safest way to earn rewards.
• Experimentation of builds will not happen. People want to use safe builds to keep themselves from dying. While sub-optimal/personalized builds are uncommon now, a death penalty will render them extinct.
• People will blame deaths on party members. We already have a lot of toxicity in Dungeons and Fractals parties. Harsh death penalties will only magnify this problem, as toxic players will blame and verbally abuse others for their deaths.

I would vote no on harsh death penalties. I don’t see any reason to stifle a person’s sense of adventure with the sense of fear. Why would you stop people from conquering the Temple of Lyssa with the threat of loss exp or gold. Why would anyone do a jumping puzzle if they’ll lose gold/exp if they happen to die?

Fafnir.5124:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Fafnir.5124:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Why not do self-imposed death penalties?

For what a drop multiplier coin multiplier? Free legendary?

Where did I ask for a free legendary?

no no no….not point im making even if you establish self imposed difficulty how would establish reward based on difficulty easily.

Ahhh, I get you.

Well, I was just responding about your comment on difficulty in your OP (which mentions nothing of rewards).

Not only that, your comment that no difficult death system = no true difficulty is false. There’s a difference between ‘challenging’ and ‘punishing’, and punishing, especially when it comes to death mechanics, isn’t necessarily a good thing.

You could keep the current death system but still have content that’ll be hard to overcome.

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

This. So much this. “Difficulty” in any challenge is how hard it is to pull it off. Severe punishments for failure don’t make things harder. They just discourage me from trying in the first place. Knowing that I failed is punishment enough.

There is an inverse proportionality between punishment and difficulty. If you make something punishing upon death, and make it really hard, no one will bother to play it. So, if you have severe punishments for death, you have to make death rare, and thus have to tone down the difficulty of the game.

I like the flip side: death is cheap, but the less costly death is, the more frequent you can make death. Low punishments means that it is possible to crank up the difficulty. Low punishments encourage me to try riskier things, like flying solo in dungeons. Low punishments let me try out new tactics, and even just have fun with everything. I can laugh about how horrible something went when I don’t have to spend a week grinding to get it all back.

If you want more stringent punishments, put them on yourself. Don’t put them on others.

Death penalties are left out of games these days simply because it’s annoying. There’s nothing more frustrating than spending 3 hours exp grinding, getting DCed, and wasting those 3 hours.

Punishing people for death doesn’t add anything to the game other than a sour taste in your mouth. No one likes dying, just the very act of it happening is something people avoid; you don’t see people going ‘man, so much fun dying in Skyrim!’ even though that’s a single player game. So given that fact there’s no point penalising people further for it.

The death penalty in Gw1 was annoying as heck.

putting death penalty on this game will give ppl more reason to run zerker build over anything else so is a bad idea

this game is easy for 2 reason

1) zerker build way to OP and makes any dungeon run a joke

2) Bosses just stand there and take a beating

Drakent.9605:

putting death penalty on this game will give ppl more reason to run zerker build over anything else so is a bad idea

this game is easy for 2 reason

1) zerker build way to OP and makes any dungeon run a joke

2) Bosses just stand there and take a beating

dps vs suitability. you die your squad is kittened what will people pick. you are telling me zerkers never go down?

If there was no death life wouldn’t be valued and this I see as one of the core issue of this game for both players and npcs. Most people only cared about Lions arch npcs once they died.

Fafnir.5124:

Drakent.9605:

putting death penalty on this game will give ppl more reason to run zerker build over anything else so is a bad idea

this game is easy for 2 reason

1) zerker build way to OP and makes any dungeon run a joke

2) Bosses just stand there and take a beating

dps vs suitability. you die your squad is kittened what will people pick. you are telling me zerkers never go down?

If there was no death life wouldn’t be valued and this I see as one of the core issue of this game for both players and npcs. Most people only cared about Lions arch npcs once they died.

Zerker do go down but there play style is kill as many you can before you die and it works perfect , zerker build don’t stop to revive there mates, they keep hack and slashing until boss is dead even if 1 man is standing and this works good for them and is reason why you see ( zerker only group) is a dps race not a survival static

So by putting a death penalty you aren’t making the game harder for every 1 but only for none zerker players , giving zerker build another reason to be the only class to be play

Dying in game should make you die irl.

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

actually, it does.
lets not choose death, lets say you lose the game.
lets say winning the game gets you 10 dollars.

So now which is harder 2+2 with only one answer given?
Or 2+2 where you can guess infinitely.

i will tell you even a 2 or 3 year old given infinite guesses will beat the game that doesnt end when you guess incorrectly
But many will lose the game that only gives you one chance.

so yeah 2+2 is harder with harsh consequences than without, its just that its so easy you think the consequences are irrelevant.

For example, if everyone dying in a fractal reset that fractal, it would be more difficult. Whole strategies would change.

Lol OP that’s crazy. Not many people would ever play a mmo where dying resets you to level 1 or your armor breaks forever.

The mob you were trying to kill resets, and you have to run all the way back and start all over again (or give up). That’s enough of a time sink.

AsmallChicken.9634:

Dying in game should make you die irl.

Lock yourself in your room and set up a system where poison is released slowly into the room as your HP falls in game.

Enjoy.

I think people die more then they think in game. And no one realizes how much just because there is no consequences. It will cause players to question how they play significantly more. I think it is a chicken and the egg thing does the risk come before the reward or the reward before the risk? Although you can argue there are risks with no rewards i guess.

robertul.3679:

Lol OP that’s crazy. Not many people would ever play a mmo where dying resets you to level 1 or your armor breaks forever.

damaged is not broken so you got to die a lot with out repair for it to break and i think it is kinda stupid to not do a repair inbetween.

No thanks. After the severe and harsh death penalties that I put up with in other mmos, I like GW2’s system just fine.

Where is the value and accomplishment in a try until you win game. One of the reasones no content is truly hard and rewards will never be good. I argue GW2 has no system and the argument here is that there should be something. As system stands there are dugeon runs people do naked so armor or traiting really does nothing for success of anything. Zerker build is only for time of few mins which still makes me laugh. Because GW2 has attributed no value of life and death of the player there will never be a challenge that cant be over come by repetitive trys..