Guild Wars 2

Agreed. GW2 simply isn’t designed for harsh penalties, the core of this game is low risk, low reward.

Currently there is no death penalty armor repair was only one but they removed it. Waypoint costs are cost to travel not rez you don’t see increased cost if you are dead. Death effects has large impact on game play. If you can repeat until you win i think it takes away from the prestige of wining honestly. If you think a few silver is something to fear when people are making 100s of g a week i think you are really getting your priorities wrong.

How about a death in a dungeon should comprise of 20% of the final reward of the dungeon.

1) You are awesome and you want hard penalties to feel great. Fret not that is no problem, just be friggin awesome and consequent at the same time. Delete your loser character as soon as he hits the ground. Problem solved, everyone happy.

2) You are awesome but not that awesome? You still want to be more awesome than that casual loser that falls down every two seconds? Pay Evon 5% of your total gold worth every time you die. How? Place a sell order for the amount you own and then take it off again afterwards. Increase this number as your awesomness rises until you change to option one.

The lack of penalties for failure is on par with the lack of reward for success.

Fafnir.5124:

Currently there is no death penalty armor repair was only one but they removed it. Waypoint costs are cost to travel not rez you don’t see increased cost if you are dead. Death effects has large impact on game play. If you can repeat until you win i think it takes away from the prestige of wining honestly. If you think a few silver is something to fear when people are making 100s of g a week i think you are really getting your priorities wrong.

How about a death in a dungeon should comprise of 20% of the final reward of the dungeon.

So if I’m in a dungeon full damage melee while rest of the group stay at max range with PVT and I happen to get downed once and nobody moves an inch to get me up, I’m the bad player who should get lower reward?

I’m for something similar to the death penalty in GW1 but not for any major financial penalty (tho the removal of the repair costs DID take away the major reason to NOT die). Maybe WP costs should be doubled if you are dead? Not sure how that would translate to 5-man team areas…..

Hey there my well plated heavy armored Warrior and Guardian friends,do you know that outside are still some kitten fragile Professions which if they go close combat are almost 1 hited?and 2 hited in downed state?
What do you say about FPS,Laggspikes,hardly counterable npc abilities and bugs?

Yes I am agree that more severe punishments needed for die but perma things are not a solution.
I undestand that many Heavy plated enjoy the lot of invulnerabilities and resistance to damage even in full Berserker gear/accesories but there are thieves,rangers(who deal kitten damage from range),mesmers… … …this only f PvE,in pvp…better not even join then…

Fafnir.5124:

Currently there is no death penalty armor repair was only one but they removed it. Waypoint costs are cost to travel not rez you don’t see increased cost if you are dead. Death effects has large impact on game play. If you can repeat until you win i think it takes away from the prestige of wining honestly. If you think a few silver is something to fear when people are making 100s of g a week i think you are really getting your priorities wrong.

How about a death in a dungeon should comprise of 20% of the final reward of the dungeon.

Prestige? What prestige? Isn’t this game about having fun?

And 100 gold per week? How can you make that much?

Amnariel.3659:

Hey there my well plated heavy armored Warrior and Guardian friends,do you know that outside are still some kitten fragile Professions which if they go close combat are almost 1 hited?and 2 hited in downed state?
What do you say about FPS,Laggspikes,hardly counterable npc abilities and bugs?

Yes I am agree that more severe punishments needed for die but perma things are not a solution.
I undestand that many Heavy plated enjoy the lot of invulnerabilities and resistance to damage even in full Berserker gear/accesories but there are thieves,rangers(who deal kitten damage from range),mesmers… … …this only f PvE,in pvp…better not even join then…

The run at it until it dies and stacking and zerg mentality in general is because players don’t fear their own deaths. The attributes of Death in the game directly correlates with game play and strategy. GW2 by removing the only death penalty in the game removed all strategy from it for why fear death when you lose nothing.

Fafnir.5124:

Amnariel.3659:

Hey there my well plated heavy armored Warrior and Guardian friends,do you know that outside are still some kitten fragile Professions which if they go close combat are almost 1 hited?and 2 hited in downed state?
What do you say about FPS,Laggspikes,hardly counterable npc abilities and bugs?

Yes I am agree that more severe punishments needed for die but perma things are not a solution.
I undestand that many Heavy plated enjoy the lot of invulnerabilities and resistance to damage even in full Berserker gear/accesories but there are thieves,rangers(who deal kitten damage from range),mesmers… … …this only f PvE,in pvp…better not even join then…

The run at it until it dies and stacking and zerg mentality in general is because players don’t fear their own deaths. The attributes of Death in the game directly correlates with game play and strategy. GW2 by removing the only death penalty in the game removed all strategy from it for why fear death when you lose nothing.

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

ofLegends.9853:

Fafnir.5124:

Amnariel.3659:

Hey there my well plated heavy armored Warrior and Guardian friends,do you know that outside are still some kitten fragile Professions which if they go close combat are almost 1 hited?and 2 hited in downed state?
What do you say about FPS,Laggspikes,hardly counterable npc abilities and bugs?

Yes I am agree that more severe punishments needed for die but perma things are not a solution.
I undestand that many Heavy plated enjoy the lot of invulnerabilities and resistance to damage even in full Berserker gear/accesories but there are thieves,rangers(who deal kitten damage from range),mesmers… … …this only f PvE,in pvp…better not even join then…

The run at it until it dies and stacking and zerg mentality in general is because players don’t fear their own deaths. The attributes of Death in the game directly correlates with game play and strategy. GW2 by removing the only death penalty in the game removed all strategy from it for why fear death when you lose nothing.

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

If you are dead you have zero time left. Maybe with each death a dragon minion vet should spawn where you are that would be an interesting mechanic. And zerg wipes would be pritty funny then especially against teq.

“Death is only the beginning.”

— Imhotep

Majic.4801:

“Death is only the beginning.”

— Imhotep

can you really quote him with a movie quote?

Fafnir.5124:

can you really quote him with a movie quote?

Just did.

Besides, everyone knows Arnold Vosloo is the real Imhotep, not some impostor who stole the name 4700 years ago.

ofLegends.9853:

Why is it that people want things to be “harder”, so instead of making them harder for themselves, they want to impose on everyone else?

This is a great, succinct way of putting it. I see this central theme in all the worst threads. The core principle: they find something about themselves — something they have, or something they excel at — and design new mechanics around giving them a leg up on anyone who isn’t in their boat.

• If they have ample real-world cash to spare, they argue about how crucial it is for MMOs to have subscription fees to “maintain a better community,” or say things like “if you can’t afford $15/month, you shouldn’t be playing an MMO.”
• If they like to farm/grind and have tons of free time, they want to see any and all diminishing returns or time-gated content abolished, or they come up with ways for Legendaries to be even bigger and shinier.
• If they played Guild Wars 1, they brainstorm more and more rewards and accolades for people who completed Hall of Monuments achievements.
• If they are a highly-competitive “hardcore” player, they want higher difficulty, higher punishment for failure, WoW-style raids that 1% of players will ever complete, and the sacred right to kick anyone from their group if not in full zerker gear
• If they are part of a huge guild, they want to see WvW shut down for one day each week to make room for exclusive Guild VS Guild combat modes.

In most cases, there are constructive and positive ways to phrase what it is they really want. But too often, the core “idea” is essentially to make the game worse for those who aren’t in the OP’s position. I mean, even in this topic, the OP complained that the game wasn’t hard enough. So, what was the solution? Target those who are already struggling, and hassle them by wasting their time or taking their gold.

Fyrebrand.4859:

So, what was the solution? Target those who are already struggling, and hassle them by wasting their time or taking their gold.

Winning is not enough.

Others must lose!

Fyrebrand.4859:

ofLegends.9853:

Why is it that people want things to be “harder”, so instead of making them harder for themselves, they want to impose on everyone else?

This is a great, succinct way of putting it. I see this central theme in all the worst threads. The core principle: they find something about themselves — something they have, or something they excel at — and design new mechanics around giving them a leg up on anyone who isn’t in their boat.

• If they have ample real-world cash to spare, they argue about how crucial it is for MMOs to have subscription fees to “maintain a better community,” or say things like “if you can’t afford $15/month, you shouldn’t be playing an MMO.”
• If they like to farm/grind and have tons of free time, they want to see any and all diminishing returns or time-gated content abolished, or they come up with ways for Legendaries to be even bigger and shinier.
• If they played Guild Wars 1, they brainstorm more and more rewards and accolades for people who completed Hall of Monuments achievements.
• If they are a highly-competitive “hardcore” player, they want higher difficulty, higher punishment for failure, WoW-style raids that 1% of players will ever complete, and the sacred right to kick anyone from their group if not in full zerker gear
• If they are part of a huge guild, they want to see WvW shut down for one day each week to make room for exclusive Guild VS Guild combat modes.

In most cases, there are constructive and positive ways to phrase what it is they really want. But too often, the core “idea” is essentially to make the game worse for those who aren’t in the OP’s position. I mean, even in this topic, the OP complained that the game wasn’t hard enough. So, what was the solution? Target those who are already struggling, and hassle them by wasting their time or taking their gold.

Gold is so bountiful in this game that there is rapid inflation of all goods gold is the equivalent of silver during launch. People chose to give up an awsome fractal for 30 pieces of silver. Are you willing to make sacrifices for the world of GW2 or are you not. People didn’t feel deaths at divinities reach yet people where crying for those at lions arch. Everything in gw2 is easy to acquire other than rng stuff. Without the weight of death nothing you do actions in events nor because the same solution will occur wither you are there or not npcs will live. What does death mean in the game. Anyway this is a discussion to put it into black and white is completely destroying the issue at hand.

Anyway I still stand by my statement if there is never a risk there will never be a reward and content difficulty is all the same because there is no risk.

Fyrebrand.4859:

ofLegends.9853:

Why is it that people want things to be “harder”, so instead of making them harder for themselves, they want to impose on everyone else?

This is a great, succinct way of putting it. I see this central theme in all the worst threads. The core principle: they find something about themselves — something they have, or something they excel at — and design new mechanics around giving them a leg up on anyone who isn’t in their boat.

• If they have ample real-world cash to spare, they argue about how crucial it is for MMOs to have subscription fees to “maintain a better community,” or say things like “if you can’t afford $15/month, you shouldn’t be playing an MMO.”
• If they like to farm/grind and have tons of free time, they want to see any and all diminishing returns or time-gated content abolished, or they come up with ways for Legendaries to be even bigger and shinier.
• If they played Guild Wars 1, they brainstorm more and more rewards and accolades for people who completed Hall of Monuments achievements.
• If they are a highly-competitive “hardcore” player, they want higher difficulty, higher punishment for failure, WoW-style raids that 1% of players will ever complete, and the sacred right to kick anyone from their group if not in full zerker gear
• If they are part of a huge guild, they want to see WvW shut down for one day each week to make room for exclusive Guild VS Guild combat modes.

In most cases, there are constructive and positive ways to phrase what it is they really want. But too often, the core “idea” is essentially to make the game worse for those who aren’t in the OP’s position. I mean, even in this topic, the OP complained that the game wasn’t hard enough. So, what was the solution? Target those who are already struggling, and hassle them by wasting their time or taking their gold.

Very nice points; yes, it does seem like a trend among other players….

Seems like a lot of players in here are both for and against the OP’s idea, but I still say nothing is stopping them from imposing their ideas on themselves. I’m just fine with how the death is already.

Add back repair costs. I agree death should be avoided. Or add a system like GW1, of course only for PvE which goes away after some time.

@fafnir

You’ve gone from a content perspective to a story perspective.

And you’re still wrong about how there can’t be challenging content without a death penalty.

If you got a piece of content where people only need to autoattack and not worry about others, and then you got a piece of content that needs people to work together, utilising the full depth of the system, you can’t say that they’re both of the same skill level simply because there’s no severe death penalty.

Look at, say, a skill challenge where you fight an NPC and Liandri. Are they both the same skill levels simply because there’s a more severe death penalty?

Now, risk / reward is an entirely seperate issue to challenge, although when balancing this you can substitute the risk for challenge. The greater the risk / challenge, the higher the reward should be.

Rust Never Sleeps

As others have pointed out, players who want death to mean more can always step up to the plate, take the initiative and put their money where their mouse is…

Guild Wars 2 – Iron man Challenge

Do you have what it takes? Only one way to find out.

…

(Well, two, actually. I never wanted to try anything like this in the first place. So I already know I don’t have what it takes.)

Majic.4801:

Rust Never Sleeps

As others have pointed out, players who want death to mean more can always step up to the plate, take the initiative and put their money where their mouse is…

Guild Wars 2 – Iron man Challenge

Do you have what it takes? Only one way to find out.

…

(Well, two, actually. I never wanted to try anything like this in the first place. So I already know I don’t have what it takes.)

I now know what I’m doing with my 9th character spot

Rouven.7409:

1) You are awesome and you want hard penalties to feel great. Fret not that is no problem, just be friggin awesome and consequent at the same time. Delete your loser character as soon as he hits the ground. Problem solved, everyone happy.

2) You are awesome but not that awesome? You still want to be more awesome than that casual loser that falls down every two seconds? Pay Evon 5% of your total gold worth every time you die. How? Place a sell order for the amount you own and then take it off again afterwards. Increase this number as your awesomness rises until you change to option one.

I lol-ed.

Thanks for this.

I’m definitely the casual loser xD.

Here’s an idea, Fafnir……since you want death to be a substantial penalty……everytime your character dies……go give 1 gold to some random player passing by. That way you’ll be happy because death will cost you something, and those of us who like no penalties for death will also still be happy.

Altho, that iron man challenge a few posts up sounds like that would suit you best.

What I get from the OP is: I don’t waste enough time in this game, I need to be forced to waste more time.

Drakent.9605:

That is the reason why Zerker is such a popular build, requires 0 skills to play , the stats are so OP that it aloud 5 zerker stack together and cleave the hell out of everything in seconds. As I say zerker build don’t spend time reviving there friend but only dpsing

You try the same game play with none zerker build they drop like fly’s, this is why I laugh so hard in the inside when I pug with ppl and they say STACK and is b/c they have no clue what they are doing.

If you guys want this to be more of a challenge you need to change everything but the way how death works b/c is not the problem

1) have bosses move around instead of just standing in spot like giants dummies. make the person work for his damage

2) increase bosses HP, fight are to shorts , a boss with a elite group of players should take 2-3 min to kill not 30 seconds normal group should take 4-6min

3) Nerf zerker build some more

Lol’d.

What a dreadfully ignorant thing to say.

ammayhem.5962:

What I get from the OP is: I don’t waste enough time in this game, I need to be forced to waste more time.

I’d argue that that wasted time would make players understand there class more and make people less likely to die which are all plus in my book. I guess i should put real life expectations into a game or have you value your own life is a misappropriation of your time. Should content be able to be rushed what difficulty should things be at are all balance issues. However, as it stands death has no value at all. Which has created play styles which anet is trying to design to not let us use. Any imposed death penalty would probably be minuscule at best so why everyone has such harsh rejection to it I really don’t know at all. Until death has a value completion of any event has no value title have no value.

Is death something that should be avoided in GW2?

Fafnir.5124:

Gold is so bountiful in this game that there is rapid inflation of all goods gold is the equivalent of silver during launch.

The people who die all the time and consistently wipe in dungeons are not the people who have all the gold. Adding a higher cost to dying is essentially taxing the poor.

Fafnir.5124:

f there is never a risk there will never be a reward and content difficulty is all the same because there is no risk.

A gold/XP/item cost after death does not even begin to address actual content difficulty. It only installs gimmicky padding of game hours. Having to farm a bit more to make up for your losses is an annoying grind, but it’s not a meaningful challenge.

Why would an environment where failure is more severely punished be a good place to introduce harder content? If anything, it’s the opposite. If there’s no harsh penalty for failure, players are more willing to jump into tougher situations, experiment, explore, and try again if they do fail. If failure becomes significantly unprofitable, then people won’t want to try anything challenging unless it’s under the most ideal conditions. I can guarantee you, stuff like the Queen’s Gauntlet would certainly be way less popular if every defeat handed players penalties to gold, XP, lost gear, etc.

Fafnir.5124:

Gold is so bountiful in this game that there is rapid inflation of all goods gold is the equivalent of silver during launch.

So, at launch, exotics and runes were selling for single pieces of silver each?

The people who are dying aren’t the ones who are swimming in gold – The ones swimming in gold are the ones capable of farming (Which requires NOT losing time to frequent death), or safely sitting at the TP playing the markets.

Fyrebrand.4859:

Fafnir.5124:

Gold is so bountiful in this game that there is rapid inflation of all goods gold is the equivalent of silver during launch.

The people who die all the time and consistently wipe in dungeons are not the people who have all the gold. Adding a higher cost to dying is essentially taxing the poor.

Fafnir.5124:

f there is never a risk there will never be a reward and content difficulty is all the same because there is no risk.

A gold/XP/item cost after death does not even begin to address actual content difficulty. It only installs gimmicky padding of game hours. Having to farm a bit more to make up for your losses is an annoying grind, but it’s not a meaningful challenge.

Why would an environment where failure is more severely punished be a good place to introduce harder content? If anything, it’s the opposite. If there’s no harsh penalty for failure, players are more willing to jump into tougher situations, experiment, explore, and try again if they do fail. If failure becomes significantly unprofitable, then people won’t want to try anything challenging unless it’s under the most ideal conditions. I can guarantee you, stuff like the Queen’s Gauntlet would certainly be way less popular if every defeat handed players penalties to gold, XP, lost gear, etc.

You can either have positive or negative reinforcement to force players to care about their life more. You seem to think that items gold xp have a fixed value they do not the more they are handed out the less value they have exp is so easy to get in this game I doubt anyone would complain or even notice it if they where not told about it first. DP are a fundamental component that has strong implications on how a game is played. Should players be trained to not die.

Players are already trained to “Not Die”.

Their ability to do so varies, though. And sometimes, there are things more important than Not Dying. Jormag’s Claw isn’t going to suicide-bomb itself.

Fafnir.5124:

Anyway I still stand by my statement if there is never a risk there will never be a reward and content difficulty is all the same because there is no risk.

I am very happy with ’no risk" thank you very much. (and I die ALOT.)

You want it to be more challenging, then make it more challenging for yourself. Leave us players who are happy with the game out of your ‘improvements’.

Taygus.4571:

Fafnir.5124:

Anyway I still stand by my statement if there is never a risk there will never be a reward and content difficulty is all the same because there is no risk.

I am very happy with ’no risk" thank you very much. (and I die ALOT.)

You want it to be more challenging, then make it more challenging for yourself. Leave us players who are happy with the game out of your ‘improvements’.

Right there with ya, Taygus! Completely agree!

I always chuckle anyways when someone talks about “risk” when speaking of a video game….lol. There is no actual ‘risk’ in a video game…..maybe you have to spend a few more hours to do a certain ‘risky’ thing that then gives you a ‘cool, flashy’ reward. But it’s always the same formula…… dumping more hours into the time sink than others might be willing to do.

GW2, overall, is good fun to me…its a very nice, entertaining diversion from real life…..I can spend a ton of hours playing it when I feel like it, or I can play it for a little bit and still leave with a smile on my face.

That’s my reward. I smile. I laugh. I am entertained. That’s all I want from an online game anymore. I could care less about your supposed ‘risk’ in game…..especially when there are tons of other games out there that have the sort of ‘challenge’ that you want. It’s nice to finally have a good mmorpg that seems to be geared more toward the casual sort of player. (while still having some tougher content in it when I want to act like a pseudo-hardcore player….lol)

Beldin.5498:

Naevius.3185:

>>Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game.

If I pose the problem “What is 2+2?”, it does not get harder just because I threaten to shoot you for a wrong answer. Your logic is flawed.

Not really .. people always complain how easy this game is, while they have maybe died already 100+ times. With permadeath 1 single death will suddenly make the game feel much harder.

If you play the way that you really avoid death in any way, you will notice that there are quite some mobs that can really be very nasty and you can die fast if you don’t expect that.

You’re proposing the system from Diable 2 and 3 expert mode right?
I play the game for fun, so I don’t enjoy that type of system.
Also this will only encourage selfish game-play style that everyone wants to survive and no-one wants to fight.

people who say that death not mattering doesnt make things harder are lying to themselves.
Simply put, you have to play better, and work together better when death matters. In phantasy star online, they had a mode called challenge mode, they took the same game, and gave you predetermined levels and gear, you had an item called a scape doll, that gave you a free ressurection, and a limited amount per level.

This made the very same game, WAY harder. You actually had to learn enemy patterns, work together etc.

Severe death penalties just add stress for me, not any additional difficulty or feelings of achievement. I don’t need more stress in my life. I play GW2 as a stress reliever, not stress adder.

phys.7689:

people who say that death not mattering doesnt make things harder are lying to themselves.

Simply put, you have to play better, and work together better when death matters. In phantasy star online, they had a mode called challenge mode, they took the same game, and gave you predetermined levels and gear, you had an item called a scape doll, that gave you a free ressurection, and a limited amount per level.

This made the very same game, WAY harder. You actually had to learn enemy patterns, work together etc.

Or…maybe we understand that you don’t need death to be punishing for content to be challenging.

The content itself should be the roadblock. If you don’t play well (learn enemy patterns, work together ect), you don’t progress. Death has no bearing on that, since when you’re dead, you aren’t actually attempting the content. All it does is make it more punishing, it doesn’t actually make the content challenging.

Teon.5168:

Taygus.4571:

Fafnir.5124:

Anyway I still stand by my statement if there is never a risk there will never be a reward and content difficulty is all the same because there is no risk.

I am very happy with ’no risk" thank you very much. (and I die ALOT.)

You want it to be more challenging, then make it more challenging for yourself. Leave us players who are happy with the game out of your ‘improvements’.

Right there with ya, Taygus! Completely agree!

I always chuckle anyways when someone talks about “risk” when speaking of a video game….lol. There is no actual ‘risk’ in a video game…..maybe you have to spend a few more hours to do a certain ‘risky’ thing that then gives you a ‘cool, flashy’ reward. But it’s always the same formula…… dumping more hours into the time sink than others might be willing to do.

GW2, overall, is good fun to me…its a very nice, entertaining diversion from real life…..I can spend a ton of hours playing it when I feel like it, or I can play it for a little bit and still leave with a smile on my face.

That’s my reward. I smile. I laugh. I am entertained. That’s all I want from an online game anymore. I could care less about your supposed ‘risk’ in game…..especially when there are tons of other games out there that have the sort of ‘challenge’ that you want. It’s nice to finally have a good mmorpg that seems to be geared more toward the casual sort of player. (while still having some tougher content in it when I want to act like a pseudo-hardcore player….lol)

Definitely right there with you. If death had some idiotic “challenge” with it, the game would be very much less fun to me and I would simply find another game to enjoy. There are many.

However, I also find gw2 very casual-friendly in that you can make some progress with very little play time. Compared to wow where you HAD to play for at least an hour or two to feel like you got anything done, and even then it was only scraping the bottom of the barrel. This game is very nice as it is IMO.

phys.7689:

In phantasy star online, they had a mode called challenge mode, they took the same game, and gave you predetermined levels and gear, you had an item called a scape doll, that gave you a free ressurection, and a limited amount per level.

But what you’re talking about is a separate game mode, where they limit your level and gear. That’s very different from taking GW2 as-is and just saying “charge players some gold every time they die. That’ll make it hard.”

An optional challenge mode like this might actually be a good idea, in the right context. Maybe it could be a new path for certain dungeons, or a new dungeon type, with restricted gear/stats, or limited resurrections.
Or they could emulate the concept of a roguelike, with a semi-randomized dungeon that you have to just get through as far as you can, with better rewards the further you get — but once you get downed, you’re kicked out and it resets.

Creating a unique, self-contained place or option where survival is required to progress, is one thing. Enacting harsher penalties to everyone each and every time they die in the game, is quite another. “Challenge” should be about what happens to you while you’re alive, not after you’re dead.

Not everybody wants a harder game!

It’s very easy for you to make this game harder for yourself, want prestige? use twitch and youtube while you’re doing it.

Let us have a game that isn’t frustrating/challenged crazed. I am quite happy with this game, I don’t want more difficulty.

I can already hear the vitriol from failed dungeon runs.

“You kitten noobs! You made me lose my 15% MF bonus!”

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Theres a simple answer for death penalty, except such extreme stupid nonsense, like level reset, permadeath ect. that would totally ruin the whole game and make it just completely unfun for everyone….

However, there are penalties, that will lead to the point, that you want not to permanently die, and still don’t lead instantly to the point, that you want to ragequit because of all the silly nonsense people think about here, would be “good”, when in fact it would make the game just totally annoying for everybody.

The answer is:

Malus Effects.

Die once = Your Magic Find gets decreased by 10%
Die again, before your first Malus has been removed = Magic Find -25%, Gold Find -10%
Die again and each time becomes the Malus Effect stronger and needs longer, until it gets removed.
Theres nothing you can do to removed like, like just killing silly monsters, like people were used to it to remove the demoralizstion by just killing a few mobs…

Nah, you just either sit out your penalty time, or you go to a Shrine NPC to make up for a Donation to it, to receive a Blessing from that NPC to remove your Demoralization Curse from you to revert your Status back to normal.

What kind of Demoralization Curse you receive after a Death (happens just only in PvE, not in PvP/WvW) will be determinded by randomness.
The only thing thats clear is, that death per death, the Curse gets stronger and the player would need to donate more Gold to the Shrine Maiden to get that Curse removed instantly.

Win win for all.

• The game gets another Gold Sink
• The game gets a better Death Penalty, without punishing the player with nonsensical frustrating stuff
• Its a hard enough penalty that it will surely lead to players wanting to try harder to play smart, instead of dieing them through everything nonstop, so that they don’t cumulate too much of the Demoralization Curse too quickly that it would cost them a big sum of gold to just get rid of it instantly or having to weit instead a long time, until its duration is over, what might lead perhaps even to the point, that the Curse might become even stronger, if you don’t play the game cautiously and skillfully trying to actually avoiding to die as best as possible.

Demoralization Curse Types:

Broken Mirror = Reduces your Magic Find.
Black Cat = Reduces your Karma Gain
Stopped Clock = Reduces Exp Gain
Borrowed Salt = Reduces Gold Find

Just some obvious examples of the 4 most simple things that come into mind.
But I’m sure, ANet could come up with some interestign thigns more, that would feel like a demoralization, but which aren’t so frustrating and out of sense, like resetting a character back to level one >.>

Azhure.1857:

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

TheDaiBish.9735:

phys.7689:

people who say that death not mattering doesnt make things harder are lying to themselves.

Simply put, you have to play better, and work together better when death matters. In phantasy star online, they had a mode called challenge mode, they took the same game, and gave you predetermined levels and gear, you had an item called a scape doll, that gave you a free ressurection, and a limited amount per level.

This made the very same game, WAY harder. You actually had to learn enemy patterns, work together etc.

Or…maybe we understand that you don’t need death to be punishing for content to be challenging.

The content itself should be the roadblock. If you don’t play well (learn enemy patterns, work together ect), you don’t progress. Death has no bearing on that, since when you’re dead, you aren’t actually attempting the content. All it does is make it more punishing, it doesn’t actually make the content challenging.

except, given infinite deaths, you will progress. Thats the problem you can brute force many things.

Its like you guys are saying the task of hitting 5 shots in an hour in basketball, and 5 shots in a row are the same level of difficulty. Its really not.

phys.7689:

TheDaiBish.9735:

phys.7689:

people who say that death not mattering doesnt make things harder are lying to themselves.

Simply put, you have to play better, and work together better when death matters. In phantasy star online, they had a mode called challenge mode, they took the same game, and gave you predetermined levels and gear, you had an item called a scape doll, that gave you a free ressurection, and a limited amount per level.

This made the very same game, WAY harder. You actually had to learn enemy patterns, work together etc.

Or…maybe we understand that you don’t need death to be punishing for content to be challenging.

The content itself should be the roadblock. If you don’t play well (learn enemy patterns, work together ect), you don’t progress. Death has no bearing on that, since when you’re dead, you aren’t actually attempting the content. All it does is make it more punishing, it doesn’t actually make the content challenging.

except, given infinite deaths, you will progress. Thats the problem you can brute force many things.

Its like you guys are saying the task of hitting 5 shots in an hour in basketball, and 5 shots in a row are the same level of difficulty. Its really not.

So what I got out of this post is that progression is a bad thing because we are given infinite attempts. That’s kind of the whole point: progression.

PS: You still have to get 5 shots in a row, but you have an hour to do it instead of 5 minutes. The amount of deaths/punishment for dying doesn’t change the objective that you’re trying to complete.

Good ideas, Orpheal.

ofLegends.9853:

Azhure.1857:

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.

ofLegends.9853:

phys.7689:

TheDaiBish.9735:

phys.7689:

people who say that death not mattering doesnt make things harder are lying to themselves.

Simply put, you have to play better, and work together better when death matters. In phantasy star online, they had a mode called challenge mode, they took the same game, and gave you predetermined levels and gear, you had an item called a scape doll, that gave you a free ressurection, and a limited amount per level.

This made the very same game, WAY harder. You actually had to learn enemy patterns, work together etc.

Or…maybe we understand that you don’t need death to be punishing for content to be challenging.

The content itself should be the roadblock. If you don’t play well (learn enemy patterns, work together ect), you don’t progress. Death has no bearing on that, since when you’re dead, you aren’t actually attempting the content. All it does is make it more punishing, it doesn’t actually make the content challenging.

except, given infinite deaths, you will progress. Thats the problem you can brute force many things.

Its like you guys are saying the task of hitting 5 shots in an hour in basketball, and 5 shots in a row are the same level of difficulty. Its really not.

So what I got out of this post is that progression is a bad thing because we are given infinite attempts. That’s kind of the whole point: progression.

PS: You still have to get 5 shots in a row, but you have an hour to do it instead of 5 minutes. The amount of deaths/punishment for dying doesn’t change the objective that you’re trying to complete.

progression is not about infinite attempts, its about getting better. You have not got better because you were able to zombie through.
A 5% shooter hasnt made progress when he hits 100 shots, if he is still missing 95% of the time, hes just taking more shots.
And even in your 5 min vs 1 hour, its still easier to do in one hour. I can get 5 shots in a row in an hour of shooting, but can i hit 5 shots in a row when the game is on the line? which player is showing more skill, which task is harder, who is a more valuable player?

ofLegends.9853:

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

Funny, I thought I did.

Many people are using “greater death penalties” or “perma” to describe how “insane” a DP idea is to themselves and anyone reading this thread. When not everyone on this thread is crying out for harsh measures. Its a nice argument tactic but it doesn’t fly with me.

If there is a penalty, consequence for dying, people will actually start to think before they act. As everyone should already be doing in combat – but many are not – because of the lack of risk. To me that makes a game not only more enjoyable, but also utilizes more of the core combat mechanics that we are supposed to be using. But we aren’t.

To me it makes the game as hard as it should be because of the risk. You’re just calling it “frustrating”, when I call the very same thing “harder” or “more difficult”, because you don’t agree with the topic at hand.