Guild Wars 2

In most non-MMO games, when I lose, the progress that I made since the last save, and I have to contemplate what I should do differently to avoid that loss. There are differences out there such as roguelikes (the mistake could lie a long time before death), ironmans (where you asked for such a penelty beforehand), and competitive games (your opposition makes progress). If you place harsher penelties, players will opt for more defensive strategies and take less risks in their approach to progress (this is what created the QD train). If armour repairs applied to Queen’s Gauntlet, I certainly wouldn’t be sacrificing my time to Liadri, since I would only be making negative progress.

Now, I have played an MMO with harsh penelties (RuneScape, and I shall speak of circa 2005), and my approach to not losing all my kit to dying was either to avoid dangerous content, or to tackle it with cheap suboptimal gear, because it’s a game and it’s in my interest to balance all possible outcomes against the time I put in, in terms of both what I’m doing, and how long it took to get there.

There is a difference between hard and frustrating, though.

Take Liadri, for example. The fight itself, as far as her abilities and mechanics go, is challenging (for the average player). The cost of tickets to enter the arena, having the arena in the open map, thus subjecting the player to lag and waiting for a turn to get back in to fight – these things are merely frustrating.

Levelling is fast enough. How about you lose 1 level per death. And just remove level requirements for gear from the game, or at least remove the level requirement once something has been soulbound to a character (make something similar for Asc accountbound only items).

Bob F It.5701:

In most non-MMO games, when I lose, the progress that I made since the last save, and I have to contemplate what I should do differently to avoid that loss. There are differences out there such as roguelikes (the mistake could lie a long time before death), ironmans (where you asked for such a penelty beforehand), and competitive games (your opposition makes progress). If you place harsher penelties, players will opt for more defensive strategies and take less risks in their approach to progress (this is what created the QD train). If armour repairs applied to Queen’s Gauntlet, I certainly wouldn’t be sacrificing my time to Liadri, since I would only be making negative progress.

Now, I have played an MMO with harsh penelties (RuneScape, and I shall speak of circa 2005), and my approach to not losing all my kit to dying was either to avoid dangerous content, or to tackle it with cheap suboptimal gear, because it’s a game and it’s in my interest to balance all possible outcomes against the time I put in, in terms of both what I’m doing, and how long it took to get there.

yeah, and you then make that content more rewarding to balance the risk/required skill. Design it so that you cant succeed goin in there with crappy armor unless you are really good, now you will focus on getting really good, which is the point really

phys.7689:

progression is not about infinite attempts, its about getting better. You have not got better because you were able to zombie through.

And to get better, generally two things are needed: Analysis of what’s going wrong, and practice in getting it right. Death penalties often put roadblocks in the way of at least practicing as one can’t practice if one is undoing the effects of the penalty.

It’s also worth pointing out that gw2’s death system does not allow for infinite attempts. It allows for 7 attempts. After that, armor starts breaking which creates stat penalties. Sure, one can go repair to remove those, but that really isn’t any different than undoing any other penalty listed in this thread. It’s only a matter of how much frustration gw2 wants to put on it’s playerbase.

Fenrina.2954:

phys.7689:

progression is not about infinite attempts, its about getting better. You have not got better because you were able to zombie through.

And to get better, generally two things are needed: Analysis of what’s going wrong, and practice in getting it right. Death penalties often put roadblocks in the way of at least practicing as one can’t practice if one is undoing the effects of the penalty.

It’s also worth pointing out that gw2’s death system does not allow for infinite attempts. It allows for 7 attempts. After that, armor starts breaking which creates stat penalties. Sure, one can go repair to remove those, but that really isn’t any different than undoing any other penalty listed in this thread. It’s only a matter of how much frustration gw2 wants to put on it’s playerbase.

You practice to succeed, but if succeeding doesnt mean avoiding death, then death is not a mechanic that matters. Many contents you put yourself in high risk situations and die, but its ok, because death doesnt do anything negative anyhow.

Hey one guy is probably gonna die running past those 20 mobs, but hey he can just try again right?
2 people may die stack zerking this boss, but its actually the leet way to play.

Even tequatl tactics, stand here and just get hit, we ll try to get you up fast, if you die run back fast.

getting better at this game is not currently about not dying, which negates so many mechanics.

I dont want something horrible, and it shouldnt be everywhere, but there should be some stuff thats like, ok, now its time to play well, training wheels come off. Then the goal will be playing well enough not to die, at the same time doing it faster.

And thats what it is, essentially GW2 is on training wheels right now.

phys.7689:

And thats what it is, essentially GW2 is on training wheels right now.

That’s because the game’s difficulty curve is non-existent in the open world. The game never throws a new mechanic at the player unless it’s a new monster, and those new monsters are rare after the first ~30 levels. A Cave Troll doesn’t change even after 50 levels. Only in maps like the Orr maps does the game try to change this in the open world. The game does not try to prepare players for harder content.

This has nothing to do with the death penalty. Games with even weaker death penalties still outdo gw2 in having a better difficulty curve.

Fenrina.2954:

phys.7689:

And thats what it is, essentially GW2 is on training wheels right now.

That’s because the game’s difficulty curve is non-existent in the open world. The game never throws a new mechanic at the player unless it’s a new monster, and those new monsters are rare after the first ~30 levels. A Cave Troll doesn’t change even after 50 levels. Only in maps like the Orr maps does the game try to change this in the open world. The game does not try to prepare players for harder content.

This has nothing to do with the death penalty. Games with even weaker death penalties still outdo gw2 in having a better difficulty curve.

i agree that content isnt designed with high depth in mind, but part of the training means people have to actively avoid dying, right now its officially a good strat to zombie as fast as possible.

phys.7689:

except, given infinite deaths, you will progress. That’s the problem you can brute force many things.

Its like you guys are saying the task of hitting 5 shots in an hour in basketball, and 5 shots in a row are the same level of difficulty. Its really not.

It’s a game, you have infinite tries anyway. The only thing punishing death mechanics do is lengthen the time between the failed attempt and the next attempt. It has no bearing on the difficulty of the content, and to think so is just wrong.

The content is the component that provides the challenge, death penalties just provide some arbitrary gate to trying again straight away, whether it be having to go repair your armour, or starting the entire dungeon from scratch.

As for brute-forcing things, that’s only applicable in the open world. In dungeons, if you die you can’t WP until everyone is out of combat.

Finally, your example. No, they’re not of equal difficulty. I agree with this. It gets easier, since you learn what you need to adjust. In basketball, it’s angle, how much power ect. In the game, it’s swapping skills and traits, knowing what to dodge / interrupt ect, and this is not a bad thing in the slightest, since if you simply ram your head into it repeatedly without trying to learn the encounter, you won’t progress.

This just come to me as well; there is a death penalty. Die 4 times in a minute and you go straight to Defeated on the fifth. Each Downed as well reduces the chance of the the player Rallying.

Azhure.1857:

To me it makes the game as hard as it should be because of the risk. You’re just calling it “frustrating”, when I call the very same thing “harder” or “more difficult”, because you don’t agree with the topic at hand.

You do not speak for everyone.

You can easily make this game harder for yourself, please go do that.

So am I a really bad player when I died like 10 times when trying to solo Spider Queen without dodging and with melee skills only (and eventually got it done without taking ANY damage)?

Maybe my character should have been sent back to tutorial for some basic training?

phys.7689:

ofLegends.9853:

Azhure.1857:

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.

No, the dungeon is NOT more difficult. Just more frustrating.
As many others have pointed out, it’s a game. We don’t want to be frustrated by death because it already sucks enough to die. If you want to make death “harder” (it’s not), then go ahead and give yourselves penalties. Nobody is stopping you. I haven’t seen anyone reply to THAT point. Guess it’s got too much logic…

ofLegends.9853:

phys.7689:

ofLegends.9853:

Azhure.1857:

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.

No, the dungeon is NOT more difficult. Just more frustrating.
As many others have pointed out, it’s a game. We don’t want to be frustrated by death because it already sucks enough to die. If you want to make death “harder” (it’s not), then go ahead and give yourselves penalties. Nobody is stopping you. I haven’t seen anyone reply to THAT point. Guess it’s got too much logic…

because they want to force it on everyone, it’s the only way they can feel amazing…………………………………….

Taygus.4571:

ofLegends.9853:

phys.7689:

ofLegends.9853:

Azhure.1857:

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.

No, the dungeon is NOT more difficult. Just more frustrating.
As many others have pointed out, it’s a game. We don’t want to be frustrated by death because it already sucks enough to die. If you want to make death “harder” (it’s not), then go ahead and give yourselves penalties. Nobody is stopping you. I haven’t seen anyone reply to THAT point. Guess it’s got too much logic…

because they want to force it on everyone, it’s the only way they can feel amazing…………………………………….

That’s what I’m getting too. Nobody has said “I won’t force myself to do a penalty because x” but I suspect the reason is that “nobody else has to”……… Makes no sense. They want penalties, they can do them.

LoL, losing (any amount of) levels for dying. That would go over just wonderfully in an MMO.

Woljnir.7810:

LoL, losing (any amount of) levels for dying. That would go over just wonderfully in an MMO.

There were MMO’s that had that.

GW1’s DP was the hardest to deal with, losing power and HP up to a max of 60% DP. That would be hard to do with GW2 since we have level scaling in the game. This is why 55 HP Monks were an exploit in GW1 (it should have been DP based on your original HP, not what you have equipped). This is why GW2, didn’t go that way.

People don’t like the DP in GW2? It is a loss of armor, etc. You have to get it fixed. In Gw1, you had to leave the instance and restart – or use food (which there was in GW1). I think it is reasonable.

Why ask for an artificial penalty when there is already a real life one, time. The greatest penalty is always, time spent recovering from a death. Pretty much any death penalty on top of that just amplifies the time penalty for no real reason.

Wethospu.6437:

So am I a really bad player when I died like 10 times when trying to solo Spider Queen without dodging and with melee skills only (and eventually got it done without taking ANY damage)?

Maybe my character should have been sent back to tutorial for some basic training?

it doesnt have to be a penalty like that anyhow. The Point is to negatively reinforce death, or postively reinforce living in certain circumstances.

lets say the dungeons, had challenge mode.
greater rewards, or special rewards.
conditions for success are;
cant die/limited deaths
reward scales based on time to complete
amount of unique enemies slain

Open world version might be like, a running buff to rare item drop rate, (that effects chests) that gets lower with each death, and gets worked off with experience gained. (like GW1 but with item rarity/gold bonus instead of hp/mana reduction.

the precise implementation is up for debate, but the idea is, make people want to live.

and lets be honest, you might be the man, but if you could solo the whole dungeon without dying, you would be more of the man.

ofLegends.9853:

phys.7689:

ofLegends.9853:

Azhure.1857:

ofLegends.9853:

Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.

The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.

Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.

Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.

Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?

There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.

Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.

Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.

As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.

Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.

My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?

The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.

No, the dungeon is NOT more difficult. Just more frustrating.
As many others have pointed out, it’s a game. We don’t want to be frustrated by death because it already sucks enough to die. If you want to make death “harder” (it’s not), then go ahead and give yourselves penalties. Nobody is stopping you. I haven’t seen anyone reply to THAT point. Guess it’s got too much logic…

Actually it is more difficult.
play Contra with 3 lives and 4 continues
play contra with 30 lives and 4 continues
tell me for real which one is more difficult
tell me for real which one is a better show of your skills at contra.

I mean hey i get you dont want it to happen, but you really need to stop pretending that it is not easier to have infinite tries/lives.

Just say, yeah its more difficult, but i dont really want things to be more difficult, life is annoying already.

Wow, talk about wanting to take the fun out of a game.

Permadeath. No one would do a world boss, ever. We have all died during one. Also one takes one person to mess up a pull in a high level frac, party wide Permadeath. Your playing an alt that’s a little more squishy than your main. You drop down a clif that you’ve done loads on your main and lived. Permadeath.

Do you see where I’m going with this? People would A) stop playing or content would be abandond because lefts face it people can be kitten holes, and you wouldn’t want to risk you level 80 with best in slot gear bing wiped of the face of the planet because so one is having a bad day.

If anything if you die you should have say 15% less health for a set amout of time stacking up to 60% max. This could then tick down by 15% per the set amount of time. DP in guild wars was a great motivator.

But as ANet said. They wanted to move way from that and that the cost of way point revives should be enough. I don’t like paying the cost to use a way point at the best of times. I’m tight like that.

Maybe I’m alone here, but I agree with Anet’s initial phylosophy about death. To me death is the penalty itself. Because to me, if I cannot complete content without dying then I have failed. Time, gold or reduced effectiveness are merely additional penalties to me, not the main penalty itself.

We all feel differently about death penalties, but at the end of the day it is down to Anet to decide which penalty is the most fitting for their game. I’m happy with a time penalty on its own. It is still an effective a way to seperate the skilled from the learning.

PacoXI.7690:

Why ask for an artificial penalty when there is already a real life one, time. The greatest penalty is always, time spent recovering from a death. Pretty much any death penalty on top of that just amplifies the time penalty for no real reason.

why have death at all?
no matter how you slice it death is a game mechanic that is supposed to make you avoid it.
Once you realize death serves a purpose in the game, then the question is how much time is appropriate, any loss incurred translates to a loss of time anyhow. gold is time, drop rate is time, even if you lost exp, thats time.

when you really think about it, its more a debate of how much time you lose, and how that loss is implemented.

Right now we have a really light time penalty, you actually lose more time from just not wearing highest DPS armor than you do from dying repeatedly.

who loses more time, kamikaze zerker team where everyone dies but one guy at every major battle wracking up a total of 15 team deaths, and takes 12 minutes to beat the dungeon, or survivor team, who takes zero deaths and takes 18 minutes to beat the dungeon.

which playstyle is more rewarded? who are you incentivizing.

And that is another reason why losing condition matters. Right now its actually a smarter strategy to die repeatedly than to play in ways that avoid death. Sure you would be better off not dying at all, but better to die 15 times than to play smart.

Rin.1046:

Maybe I’m alone here, but I agree with Anet’s initial phylosophy about death. To me death is the penalty itself. Because to me, if I cannot complete content without dying then I have failed. Time, gold or reduced effectiveness are merely additional penalties to me, not the main penalty itself.

We all feel differently about death penalties, but at the end of the day it is down to Anet to decide which penalty is the most fitting for their game. I’m happy with a time penalty on its own. It is still an effective a way to seperate the skilled from the learning.

people talk about the time penalty in GW like its real virtually existent in all but a few cases.
If i die fighting Balthazar i take a 30 second walkback time penalty. If i die doing a heart, its often even less. If i die next to my friend i take a 15 second time penalty. Waypoint costs are seldom even really a death cost, because i waypoint all the time anyway.

If everyone had your hatred of death it would not be an issue, but most dont. Thats why bad pugs would rather fail at stacking 2-3 times than actually fight carefully. Its why people scale up bosses ignoring tactics/mechanics and sit on the floor waiting to be ressed, because the way to beat the death penalty? sit around and wait for the winners to revive you.

People are not trained to succeed in this game. The living bonus/death penalty is way too light. Only the stigma of death remains, but that will vary from player to player, the game mechanics itself dont really encourage it

phys.7689:

Rin.1046:

Maybe I’m alone here, but I agree with Anet’s initial phylosophy about death. To me death is the penalty itself. Because to me, if I cannot complete content without dying then I have failed. Time, gold or reduced effectiveness are merely additional penalties to me, not the main penalty itself.

We all feel differently about death penalties, but at the end of the day it is down to Anet to decide which penalty is the most fitting for their game. I’m happy with a time penalty on its own. It is still an effective a way to seperate the skilled from the learning.

people talk about the time penalty in GW like its real virtually existent in all but a few cases.
If i die fighting Balthazar i take a 30 second walkback time penalty. If i die doing a heart, its often even less. If i die next to my friend i take a 15 second time penalty. Waypoint costs are seldom even really a death cost, because i waypoint all the time anyway.

If everyone had your hatred of death it would not be an issue, but most dont. Thats why bad pugs would rather fail at stacking 2-3 times than actually fight carefully. Its why people scale up bosses ignoring tactics/mechanics and sit on the floor waiting to be ressed, because the way to beat the death penalty? sit around and wait for the winners to revive you.

People are not trained to succeed in this game. The living bonus/death penalty is way too light. Only the stigma of death remains, but that will vary from player to player, the game mechanics itself dont really encourage it

It wouldn’t change anything. People want to play this game the way they play the others, even though dodge and live another day, is easy to do. People will just complain more – just look at this forum, most threads are complaint threads.

phys.7689:

Wethospu.6437:

So am I a really bad player when I died like 10 times when trying to solo Spider Queen without dodging and with melee skills only (and eventually got it done without taking ANY damage)?

Maybe my character should have been sent back to tutorial for some basic training?

it doesnt have to be a penalty like that anyhow. The Point is to negatively reinforce death, or postively reinforce living in certain circumstances.

lets say the dungeons, had challenge mode.
greater rewards, or special rewards.
conditions for success are;
cant die/limited deaths
reward scales based on time to complete
amount of unique enemies slain

Open world version might be like, a running buff to rare item drop rate, (that effects chests) that gets lower with each death, and gets worked off with experience gained. (like GW1 but with item rarity/gold bonus instead of hp/mana reduction.

the precise implementation is up for debate, but the idea is, make people want to live.

and lets be honest, you might be the man, but if you could solo the whole dungeon without dying, you would be more of the man.

Sorry for wasting your time but not actually interested of discussing this seriously.

phys.7689:

People are not trained to succeed in this game. The living bonus/death penalty is way too light. Only the stigma of death remains, but that will vary from player to player, the game mechanics itself dont really encourage it

Why does it bother YOU, how people play? and what people want out of a game?

Death Penalties? How very Retro! Which is not, I hasten to add, necessarily a bad thing.

Just curious – all those in favor of death penalties, how do you feel about the so-called ‘Holy Trinity’? Would you like to see it returned to prominence, as well? How about some old fashioned non-cardiac quests like the ones we had in GW2’s venerable predecessor? I myself rather miss those…

Fafnir.5124:

(…)It is so easy to level in GW2 I honestly think you should be reset to level 1 honestly there would be no zerkers then and Anet would finally be able to dish out loot for bosses. End game wise it only takes you like 2 weeks to make an 80. Would remove a lot of boredum that is for sure.

Thats the ticket, oh wait people already complain about leveling and alt and are CONSTANTLY making suggestions on how to (essentially) remove leveling from GW2.

Imagine getting reset to level 1 every time you die, you couldn’t use your gear anymore for at least 2 weeks, nor play any content.

As is you can’t find pugs for most dungeon paths, even the easy ones are filled with elitists and to me that was always a good way to check the pulse of an MMO.
I always shake my head in disappointment when I see a 1k AP guy demanding (while he lays dead on the ground mind you) to kick a 15k AP one just because he so happens to be in a lvl 70 toon on lets say AC…

While you might think heavy penalties for death is a good thing, I believe you’re only saying that because you haven’t put enough thought on it.
But since ascended gear is account bound now you can do a little experiment, delete your toon every time you die.
Your name is saved for a while so you can rename the new one the same, your ascended gear will be safe and exotic, well that’s easy to get.

So do that then let us know how many times you did it before you realized it’s an awful bad idea, my guess is after reading this you won’t do it even once to see whats it like.

Dean Calaway.9718:

Fafnir.5124:

(…)It is so easy to level in GW2 I honestly think you should be reset to level 1 honestly there would be no zerkers then and Anet would finally be able to dish out loot for bosses. End game wise it only takes you like 2 weeks to make an 80. Would remove a lot of boredum that is for sure.

Thats the ticket, oh wait people already complain about leveling and alt and are CONSTANTLY making suggestions on how to (essentially) remove leveling from GW2.

Imagine getting reset to level 1 every time you die, you couldn’t use your gear anymore for at least 2 weeks, nor play any content.

As is you can’t find pugs for most dungeon paths, even the easy ones are filled with elitists and to me that was always a good way to check the pulse of an MMO.
I always shake my head in disappointment when I see a 1k AP guy demanding (while he lays dead on the ground mind you) to kick a 15k AP one just because he so happens to be in a lvl 70 toon on lets say AC…

While you might think heavy penalties for death is a good thing, I believe you’re only saying that because you haven’t put enough thought on it.
But since ascended gear is account bound now you can do a little experiment, delete your toon every time you die.
Your name is saved for a while so you can rename the new one the same, your ascended gear will be safe and exotic, well that’s easy to get.

So do that then let us know how many times you did it before you realized it’s an awful bad idea, my guess is after reading this you won’t do it even once to see whats it like.

o.o
You’re on my realm.

I wish to say one more thing in this topic,what happened to me right now and is against introduction of anything severe punishment for dead.

I explored Orr,then I found a jumping puzzle,simple enough but take some time to reach up and when I reached the top I didn’t saw those spirit weapons then I just got killed in seconds with a lvl 80 thief(no stealth option) before reaching the chest…only because I was unaware…so I ask you now I should be punished more beside losing the loot and the need to jump up again?

With warrior and guardian I never had such problems but thief and other medium/light armor classes as I said before will be punished and they die very often and not by their fault sometimes but luck…so I ask again we need to be punished for our very fragile paper class where a single mistake can cost downed state and a chain sometimes instant death?

It’s been said that a greater death penalty will make people think before they act. I seriously doubt that that will work with most folks. More likely they will simply become more risk adverse and be inclined to sit back and let others fail, or just rage quit to avoid dying.

Or just make people not play at all, since the whole point of this being a game is trial and error. Punishment for dying is just going to make the majority of players find another game.

Taygus.4571:

phys.7689:

People are not trained to succeed in this game. The living bonus/death penalty is way too light. Only the stigma of death remains, but that will vary from player to player, the game mechanics itself dont really encourage it

Why does it bother YOU, how people play? and what people want out of a game?

A number of reasons;
its an online game, so how people play effects you

A lack of incentive to stay alive lowers the desire to play well, and the tension of will you succeed or not

death is a mechanic in a game designed to help teach you what you did wrong, but currently it is an acceptable tactic to embrace death and power through.

The fact that people arent learning how to play limits how much depth the developers can add. They have to balance for the average player, if the average player is a kamikaze with low skill in any other facet, thats what they have to design for

Every reward is balanced based on how much of it can come into the game and how much it can take out of the game. By being more difficult, they can put better rewards, by increasing the opportunity cost of dying, more leaves the game. The only way they can have anything besides time sink being the main method of achieving good things, is by having skill be a larger factor.
One of the reasons rewards suck in this game is because they have to balance every rewards with almost no losses.

I dont really like death penalties, but the deeper content seems to be suffering for its absence.

ofLegends.9853:

Or just make people not play at all, since the whole point of this being a game is trial and error. Punishment for dying is just going to make the majority of players find another game.

hmm this explains a difference in thinking, i dont think of games being trial and error, i think of them being tests of skill/reaction/prediction.
While trial and error is a method of learning/teaching, i find trial and error type games to be missing in the depth category.

Anyhow, If the devs dont add death penalties, i wouldnt go crazy, but honestly if they dont add way more depth, i feel like many people will leave the game after about a year. Unless, they can provide really engaging stories and events. But based on LS1, i dont know if that is probable.

bob.5680:

It’s been said that a greater death penalty will make people think before they act. I seriously doubt that that will work with most folks. More likely they will simply become more risk adverse and be inclined to sit back and let others fail, or just rage quit to avoid dying.

Playing games with heavy death penalties, it does in fact make people play like they are scared, (not everybody), and it does make people rage (not everybody) but they actually tend to play at a better level, because they have to in order to succeed, The glass cannons actually play like they are glass, the people supporting work harder to keep everyone going.

People adapt to the norm, but sometimes they are highly engaged while being at the norm, and sometimes they are pretty bored. Based on what people seem to be saying here in the forums, and what i have seen in game, its less about the path, and more about getting whatever item easier/faster. And the same people often will say they find it boring, so make it shorter and easier.
That wont make it less boring, it will just give you more progress while being bored. The designers have to find ways to keep people engaged while minimizing boredom. There are ways other than battle design, but they would require world/story/etc to be good so the battle doesnt matter for entertainment.

phys.7689:

A number of reasons;
its an online game, so how people play effects you

A lack of incentive to stay alive lowers the desire to play well, and* the tension of will you succeed or not*

I don’t want to have to deal with that feeling for every thing I do in game. Go solo some dungeons.
(also how other people play, only afects you if you party up with them. So you know, join a guild with like minded peeps.

death is a mechanic in a game designed to help teach you what you did wrong, but currently it is an acceptable tactic to embrace death and power through.

I never in inbrace death. I try and avoid it all costs. you add more death penalties, and I will do one of 2 things, never try a jumping puzzle again, never attempt to solo or duo dungeons, never attempt arah/TA aetherblade. Most likely I’d just quit the game.

The fact that people arent learning how to play limits how much depth the developers can add. They have to balance for the average player, if the average player is a kamikaze with low skill in any other facet, thats what they have to design for

anet is cerrently not balancing content for the average player. LS2 will have achieves geared towards “skilled” players.
Also, most people don’t play to die.

Every reward is balanced based on how much of it can come into the game and how much it can take out of the game. By being more difficult, they can put better rewards, by increasing the opportunity cost of dying, more leaves the game. The only way they can have anything besides time sink being the main method of achieving good things, is by having skill be a larger factor.
One of the reasons rewards suck in this game is because they have to balance every rewards with almost no losses.

and here’s the crux of it. " I want more rewards than those peasant players. I not only wnat more rewards but want them to be punished, so that I can have even more than those peasant crappy players.

Rewards do not suck in this game, The RNG can be a little low, but I get plenty of exotics and always feel like “woo and exo, yay ^^” when I get one. I’ve gotten 2 ascended boxes in the last 5 months.
What kind of rewards do you want? an increased chance at something because you’re a super duper player who never dies? aww, well, tough. Alot of this content is group based, death penalties will put a larger dependence on self-survival, rather than working together.

I dont really like death penalties, but the deeper content seems to be suffering for its absence.

and how does it suffer?

phys.7689:

bob.5680:

It’s been said that a greater death penalty will make people think before they act. I seriously doubt that that will work with most folks. More likely they will simply become more risk adverse and be inclined to sit back and let others fail, or just rage quit to avoid dying.

Playing games with heavy death penalties, it does in fact make people play like they are scared, (not everybody), and it does make people rage (not everybody) but they actually tend to play at a better level, because they have to in order to succeed, The glass cannons actually play like they are glass, the people supporting work harder to keep everyone going.

People adapt to the norm, but sometimes they are highly engaged while being at the norm, and sometimes they are pretty bored. Based on what people seem to be saying here in the forums, and what i have seen in game, its less about the path, and more about getting whatever item easier/faster. And the same people often will say they find it boring, so make it shorter and easier.
That wont make it less boring, it will just give you more progress while being bored. The designers have to find ways to keep people engaged while minimizing boredom. There are ways other than battle design, but they would require world/story/etc to be good so the battle doesnt matter for entertainment.

death penalties don’t make something more interesting. What they do, is kitten people off, induce rage(which is very negative on a community). They are VERY annoying, and if you want to play a game that’s going to punish you for every mistake, well there are games out there for that. I’d rather play to relax, tyvm

phys.7689:

bob.5680:

It’s been said that a greater death penalty will make people think before they act. I seriously doubt that that will work with most folks. More likely they will simply become more risk adverse and be inclined to sit back and let others fail, or just rage quit to avoid dying.

Playing games with heavy death penalties, it does in fact make people play like they are scared, (not everybody), and it does make people rage (not everybody) but they actually tend to play at a better level, because they have to in order to succeed, The glass cannons actually play like they are glass, the people supporting work harder to keep everyone going.

People adapt to the norm, but sometimes they are highly engaged while being at the norm, and sometimes they are pretty bored. Based on what people seem to be saying here in the forums, and what i have seen in game, its less about the path, and more about getting whatever item easier/faster. And the same people often will say they find it boring, so make it shorter and easier.
That wont make it less boring, it will just give you more progress while being bored. The designers have to find ways to keep people engaged while minimizing boredom. There are ways other than battle design, but they would require world/story/etc to be good so the battle doesnt matter for entertainment.

Well, that’s not been my experience. More often than not I would wind up being the only one actually playing or even left in the group.

If Anet ever made most of the increased death penalties being suggested here I’d simply quit playing the game altogether. As I mentioned earlier, I play video games as a stress reliever, not to prove something to either myself or others. Just for fun. Serious death penalties suck the fun right out of a game for me.

Death Penalties are essentially a form of time gate between attempts at a piece of content you cannot complete flawlessly. Humans learn through repetition. Slowing the learning process does not necessarily improve a player’s skill level. Making a player wait longer to reattempt a boss fight after he missed one dodge against the boss’ one shot kill attack does not increase the player’s skill at dodging the attack. A player that gets lucky and makes that dodge the first time will actually learn less than the player who fails and tries again.

What is needed, in my opinion, in general are not death penalties on the player but encounters that cannot be overcome with attrition. Bosses getting a “morale boost” that heals them for some small amount, or perhaps provides them with a short term invulnerability buff, when they defeat a character would incentivize not dying without directly penalizing a character.

Ashen.2907:

Death Penalties are essentially a form of time gate between attempts at a piece of content you cannot complete flawlessly. Humans learn through repetition. Slowing the learning process does not necessarily improve a player’s skill level. Making a player wait longer to reattempt a boss fight after he missed one dodge against the boss’ one shot kill attack does not increase the player’s skill at dodging the attack. A player that gets lucky and makes that dodge the first time will actually learn less than the player who fails and tries again.

What is needed, in my opinion, in general are not death penalties on the player but encounters that cannot be overcome with attrition. Bosses getting a “morale boost” that heals them for some small amount, or perhaps provides them with a short term invulnerability buff, when they defeat a character would incentivize not dying without directly penalizing a character.

I’m actually not against this idea. … and note, I like things to be on easy mode.

I think the developers like us to die.

Get in there guns blazing and try. If you die, maybe rethink your strategy. If not, just go on ahead and do it again.

Spontaneous. Chaotic. Thriving. Potential tales of reviving and turning the tide.

Not players who stand there with their excel chart, calculating they need one more XYZ traited player level OP to make sure you are not dying.

Teamwork, not jealous players who will try to save their own sorry bum first. Yes, 90% will run and not try to rez someone. That’s ok. I think it’s great any time I help some stranger get up again and I just get away with it. Yeah bummer if it doesn’t work. So what?

Ashen.2907:

(…)

What is needed, in my opinion, in general are not death penalties on the player but encounters that cannot be overcome with attrition. Bosses getting a “morale boost” that heals them for some small amount, or perhaps provides them with a short term invulnerability buff, when they defeat a character would incentivize not dying without directly penalizing a character.

Why does that remind me of the boss blizz. Oh yes, because more players = bad. Same here, don’t come close you underleveled @$^^$ – you are going to ruin the whole thing for us. Anet make instances so we can play alone!

Yes, it’s a good idea, for instanced content, dungeons, guild missions perhaps. Team gauntlets?

Rouven.7409:

I think the developers like us to die.

Get in there guns blazing and try. If you die, maybe rethink your strategy. If not, just go on ahead and do it again.

Spontaneous. Chaotic. Thriving. Potential tales of reviving and turning the tide.

Not players who stand there with their excel chart, calculating they need one more XYZ traited player level OP to make sure you are not dying.

Teamwork, not jealous players who will try to save their own sorry bum first. Yes, 90% will run and not try to rez someone. That’s ok. I think it’s great any time I help some stranger get up again and I just get away with it. Yeah bummer if it doesn’t work. So what?

I couldn’t agree more!

Rouven.7409:

Ashen.2907:

(…)

What is needed, in my opinion, in general are not death penalties on the player but encounters that cannot be overcome with attrition. Bosses getting a “morale boost” that heals them for some small amount, or perhaps provides them with a short term invulnerability buff, when they defeat a character would incentivize not dying without directly penalizing a character.

Why does that remind me of the boss blizz. Oh yes, because more players = bad. Same here, don’t come close you underleveled @$^^$ – you are going to ruin the whole thing for us. Anet make instances so we can play alone!

Yes, it’s a good idea, for instanced content, dungeons, guild missions perhaps. Team gauntlets?

I had assumed that the emphasis for something of this sort would be on instanced content. Open world content is entirely too subject to variables outside a player’s (or team’s) control for what I suggested (or death penalties for that matter).

Ashen.2907:

I had assumed that the emphasis for something of this sort would be on instanced content. Open world content is entirely too subject to variables outside a player’s (or team’s) control for what I suggested (or death penalties for that matter).

Ok, sorry, since a death penalty is usually universal I assumed this would be universal as well.

Do you think, and disclaimer I don’t do them, do you think that something like this would make fractals more appealing? Because from what I hear here on the forums they are too easy.

Should hard-core instanced content like fractals, maybe gauntlet (?), get either harsher (death) penalties or less forgiving circumstances like your idea?

Rouven.7409:

Ashen.2907:

I had assumed that the emphasis for something of this sort would be on instanced content. Open world content is entirely too subject to variables outside a player’s (or team’s) control for what I suggested (or death penalties for that matter).

Ok, sorry, since a death penalty is usually universal I assumed this would be universal as well.

Do you think, and disclaimer I don’t do them, do you think that something like this would make fractals more appealing? Because from what I hear here on the forums they are too easy.

Should hard-core instanced content like fractals, maybe gauntlet (?), get either harsher (death) penalties or less forgiving circumstances like your idea?

Wa… wait a moment!! The gauntlet… well, not the gauntlet, Liadri is frustrating enough already!! Don’t need anything to make it worse.
You can add more gambits or something like that.
But for people that can’t defeat her making things even more frustrating is a bit too much!!

And I don’t get why people want to make GW2 harder, meaner and more hardcore. GW2 is supposed to be different. A nicer game.

Ashen.2907:

Death Penalties are essentially a form of time gate between attempts at a piece of content you cannot complete flawlessly. Humans learn through repetition. Slowing the learning process does not necessarily improve a player’s skill level. Making a player wait longer to reattempt a boss fight after he missed one dodge against the boss’ one shot kill attack does not increase the player’s skill at dodging the attack. A player that gets lucky and makes that dodge the first time will actually learn less than the player who fails and tries again.

What is needed, in my opinion, in general are not death penalties on the player but encounters that cannot be overcome with attrition. Bosses getting a “morale boost” that heals them for some small amount, or perhaps provides them with a short term invulnerability buff, when they defeat a character would incentivize not dying without directly penalizing a character.

actually death in games are not really about a time gate, its generally about showing you what you did wrong, or testing how skilled/intellegient you are. It is possible to design systems that dont use death and achieve the same thing, but in a game where you are role playing a adventurer, it make some sense.

But i suppose some people dont really play games to face challenges, thats fine, but i think some parts of the game should be designed with challenge in mind.

I honestly believe those that want permadeath are those that play the TP.

Think of how much gold they would make if everyone had to start all over from level 1 when they die. Need supplies to craft your way back to 80. Need weapons and armor at least for level 80 once you get there. Et cetera, et cetera.

The worst death penalty in GW2 is exclusion. You will likely get booted from Fractals/dungeons if you die too often.

I am another one who would like death to have more of a penalty attached to it, some of the time.

For me the obvious answer is to have a choice at character creation whether you create a normal character or one that suffers a more severe death penalty but better rewards in terms of loot etc.

Alternatively they could put in a reward for not dying, you already have an achievement for experience gained with out way porting, dying etc. Add another achievement for reaching level 80 without dying and one for world completion with out dying. complete with titles and chests (Been there, done that, didn’t die?)

It has been mentioned that greater death penalty would mean people didn’t play. If that were true no one would have played a hardcore character in Diablo, or taken part in the Ironman contest in WoW, both of which were popular.

I do have a few characters that I do play hardcore already, if they die they get deleted. My choice, and it does give a whole different mindset when playing.

Oenanthe.6549:

(…)
Alternatively they could put in a reward for not dying, you already have an achievement for experience gained with out way porting, dying etc. Add another achievement for reaching level 80 without dying and one for world completion with out dying. complete with titles and chests (Been there, done that, didn’t die?)

It has been mentioned that greater death penalty would mean people didn’t play. If that were true no one would have played a hardcore character in Diablo, or taken part in the Ironman contest in WoW, both of which were popular.

I do have a few characters that I do play hardcore already, if they die they get deleted. My choice, and it does give a whole different mindset when playing.

I do like the world completion idea.

Diablo is not a MMO.

Ironman in Wow is player created, as you mentioned in your last sentence you are already doing that. There is no reason players could not start the GW2 Ironman challenge.

Oenanthe.6549:

I do have a few characters that I do play hardcore already, if they die they get deleted. My choice, and it does give a whole different mindset when playing.

Yep, one of risk aversion for many players. Can’t afford to die…reduce risk by avoiding risky situations…simple.