— Former engi main | Bring back my Power Rifle Grenadier!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0OWwwqPxDI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0OWwwqPxDI
Greater penalties for Death
You know what would be a far better way to improve skill in players? Rewarding them for better play. Positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative reinforcement. If you reward players for playing better they will naturally try harder. For example, you could have better loot rolls from boss chests if you did not die during the encounter.
I would much rather see positive incentives to encourage good gameplay than negative punishments to deter bad.
Harsh death penalties, in order to create fear of death (which I think is what some here are after), are ok if you are playing a survival horror game. But GW2 is not a survival horror game. GW2 is supposed to entertain you in other ways, not from the adrenaline rush of fear. That doesn’t mean they cannot add challenging and skill requiring content, but it does mean that they need to balance the challenge with how it makes you feel, and harsh death penalties, more often than not, are not fun (unless you’re playing a survival horror game of course).
You know what would be a far better way to improve skill in players? Rewarding them for better play. Positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative reinforcement. If you reward players for playing better they will naturally try harder. For example, you could have better loot rolls from boss chests if you did not die during the encounter.(…)
Nice idea, but how would it work? We already have people AFK on the side. You could translate this practically to quick make DPS as needed (aka tag), then go to safety until others downed “the boss”, finish “the event”.
Professional speed runners get an extra in dungeons (which they already have because they are faster) while the others already have the incentive not to die because of the potential wipe and more time lost.
I’d like to be more positive about this, but I just see too much potential for abuse.
Edit: abuse is the wrong word …
“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
(edited by Rouven.7409)
My second sentence in my previous post was to make it an optional choice, if you don’t want it, don’t take it, but increase the reward relative to the penalty. Others may be putting it forward for everyone, I wanted to give people the choice.
To clarify, while Diablo 3 was mainly a single player game it had a multiplayer option so Hardcore characters can be played alongside normal ones.
I know very few players who either play hardcore or Ironman who were risk averse, part of the joy of it is taking the risks and winning, it was one reason I put in the world completion part, you can’t do that without taking a few risks.
If you play this way you accept the risks. Death due to disconnecting is probably the worst death to suffer.
What did you win in wow for ironman?
“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
What did you win in wow for ironman?
Nothing. You got a bit of prestige among the other people trying the challenge, but most of us did it purely because it was there.
Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.
The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.
Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.
Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?
There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.
Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.
Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.
As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.
Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.
My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?
The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.No, the dungeon is NOT more difficult. Just more frustrating.
As many others have pointed out, it’s a game. We don’t want to be frustrated by death because it already sucks enough to die. If you want to make death “harder” (it’s not), then go ahead and give yourselves penalties. Nobody is stopping you. I haven’t seen anyone reply to THAT point. Guess it’s got too much logic…Actually it is more difficult.
play Contra with 3 lives and 4 continues
play contra with 30 lives and 4 continues
tell me for real which one is more difficult
tell me for real which one is a better show of your skills at contra.I mean hey i get you dont want it to happen, but you really need to stop pretending that it is not easier to have infinite tries/lives.
Just say, yeah its more difficult, but i dont really want things to be more difficult, life is annoying already.
That’s not even the same comparison at all. A proper analog would be
Play Contra with infinite lives and continues
Play Contra with infinite lives and continues, but you have to wait 10 minutes between deaths.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I, for one, am so thankful that a poster has taken the important time from his/her day to tell us all why death penalties are important to game structure, player ability and confidence, and general player attitude and skill.
Who knew there was a player psychology profile that benefits from harsher death penalties. And who knew that sweeping generalizations and assumptions about game health, player skill, and challenging content could all be related to harsher death penalties.
I wonder if one can go to school to achieve such an in depth understanding of mmo player psychology/skill as it relates to death penalties and/or the absence of them?
/eyeroll
Forum discussions -
Mmo players with a screw loose vs mmo players with two screws loose. All very important stuff.
-Zenleto-
Mmo players with a screw loose vs mmo players with two screws loose. All very important stuff.
-Zenleto-
What did you win in wow for ironman?
Nothing. You got a bit of prestige among the other people trying the challenge, but most of us did it purely because it was there.
Let’s do it. Let’s start the GW2 Ironman World Completion “Been there done that didn’t die” challenge.
We still have the star next to the character name, right? So we need two screenshots.
Edit: Just have to figure out how to make the WvW part of it fair depending on your home server.
“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
(edited by Rouven.7409)
Death Penalties are essentially a form of time gate between attempts at a piece of content you cannot complete flawlessly. Humans learn through repetition. Slowing the learning process does not necessarily improve a player’s skill level. Making a player wait longer to reattempt a boss fight after he missed one dodge against the boss’ one shot kill attack does not increase the player’s skill at dodging the attack. A player that gets lucky and makes that dodge the first time will actually learn less than the player who fails and tries again.
What is needed, in my opinion, in general are not death penalties on the player but encounters that cannot be overcome with attrition. Bosses getting a “morale boost” that heals them for some small amount, or perhaps provides them with a short term invulnerability buff, when they defeat a character would incentivize not dying without directly penalizing a character.
Bosses already do that, though. In dungeons, if you die, you cannot revive until either all your party members are out of combat or all of them are dead.
If no one is in combat with the boss, they regain their health to full.
Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.
The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.
Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.
Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?
There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.
Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.
Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.
As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.
Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.
My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?
The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.
This is a dungeon – if you fail the dungeon, you can just retry it. The bigger problem is that it leaves the person just sitting there until the dungeon is over.
Nice idea, but how would it work? We already have people AFK on the side. You could translate this practically to quick make DPS as needed (aka tag), then go to safety until others downed “the boss”, finish “the event”.
Professional speed runners get an extra in dungeons (which they already have because they are faster) while the others already have the incentive not to die because of the potential wipe and more time lost.
I’d like to be more positive about this, but I just see too much potential for abuse.
Edit: abuse is the wrong word …
I agree, if a positive reinforcement system was implemented wrong it could cause more issues than it solved, and that may be why most companies opt for the easier to produce negative reinforcement system. But I’m sure a good system could be created.
No deaths in an event with a decent amount of participation could be one way to judge skill. And having a short timeout on the activity check could be an easy way to stop AFKer’s getting rewarded, and to ensure players continue to play their part throughout an event.
Another way could be to have a score system, whereby you get extra points for healing (when players need it), successfully controlling bosses (failed or resisted attempts don’t count), successful evades/blocks and so on. This would reduce player rewards from just spamming skill 1 and encourage them to actively use their other skills (and successfully, not just spamming them).
I’m sure there are ways for a positive system to be implemented, without it causing any problems or getting abused. The problem is, for a developer, it is much easier to implement a punishment system into the game. For one thing they have been made before so the template is already there. Another thing that makes it easy is that the condition required is simple, the player just needs to die, while monitoring skill requires more checks being made.
But, if you can find a way to successfully monitor how much a player participates in content, you could easily implement a positive reinforcement system. The hardest part is finding a way to monitor participation (successful healing, support, control, etc, not just damage). I’m sure it can be done, it’s just a matter of whther the developers can/will.
Honestly, I don’t really think we need significant changes to what happens when you die. We’re not all that different from GW1 in a lot of instances, except when it comes to dungeons and missions – a team wipe or an npc death there could mean starting over from scratch. Here it tosses you back to checkpoint, which I tend to prefer. I have enough stress in my real life, I don’t need the game I play to relax to pile more on.
If you desire to incentivize people to not die, reward them for doing so, rather than punishing them if they do. Positive reinforcement tends to be a better tool than negative. Put timers on dungeon paths similar to timers on Faction’s missions – Stadard, Expert, Master – and give them better shinnies for beating it within that time teir. Give them bonus objectives like Prophecies or Nightfall missions that offer better rewards. This allows for the person to partake of the additional challenge if they so choose, and rewards them for accomplishing it. Rather than punishing them for something that may or may not have been their fault (lag, someone running through and dumping aggro on you, etc).
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Generic positive reinforcement is only effective in smaller scale and rather closely supervised environments. The path of least resistance to increased rewards will always result in abuse of the system. Why do you think Electric fences and shock collars exist?
While it’s a nice idea, it won’t work. The smarter players will quickly figure out how to abuse the system, post it on forums like these and everyone will be earning the better rewards without learning to play better in a matter of days.
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Generic positive reinforcement is only effective in smaller scale and rather closely supervised environments. The path of least resistance to increased rewards will always result in abuse of the system. Why do you think Electric fences and shock collars exist?
While it’s a nice idea, it won’t work. The smarter players will quickly figure out how to abuse the system, post it on forums like these and everyone will be earning the better rewards without learning to play better in a matter of days.
You mean exactly like what happens now….
So, they’re kitten ed if they do. kitten ed if they don’t. Anet may as well throw in the towel then.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
It has been mentioned that greater death penalty would mean people didn’t play. If that were true no one would have played a hardcore character in Diablo, or taken part in the Ironman contest in WoW, both of which were popular.
I do have a few characters that I do play hardcore already, if they die they get deleted. My choice, and it does give a whole different mindset when playing.
Alot of people who play GW2 are here because they don’t want hardcore.
Hardcore games may be popular but so are casual games (Fable/Sims. )
and yes many people who play GW2 as a chill out game, would quit with more death penalties, because it’s not what they’re playing GW2 for.
It’s certainly not what I play games for.
That’s not even the same comparison at all. A proper analog would be
Play Contra with infinite lives and continues
Play Contra with infinite lives and continues, but you have to wait 10 minutes between deaths.
actually no, i have never suggested anything like a direct time sink or time out box after death.
look at contra;
When you die, you lose your special weapons, when you run out of lives you start at the beginning of level, when you run out of continues you have to start at the beginning of the game.
I have beat contra with 30 lives (up up down down left right left right BA select start) Its not a test of skill.
Die excessively and you lose things/have to restart
put the same exact mechanic in GW and its only effect is that its a time sink? odd logic.
Because, as many others have said already, running back is annoying as **** and the worst thing to waste is TIME. Time we could be doing something else, like doing whatever it was we were trying to do before we died.
The “time sink” argument seems pointless to me. Truly. I’m really not trying to anger people on this thread, please consider that, but logging into an MMORPG is in itself a time sink.
Running back can be annoying, largely depending on distance and obstacles, but it is minor. Also there are people that could care less about waypointing because when the event is done they will be revived anyways. All they have to do is lay there, have other people do the work (at a slower pace because of the dead), and wait for revival. Rarely is there consequence for that as most times they still get event credit and loot. Why do they still get the reward? Because they recklessly threw themselves at a boss or mob without a care, put in a burst of damage, and then found themselves on their kitten.
Two examples of people not waypointing.
Temple of Grenth – Its understandable because it can be a very challenging event. However the dead pile up and STAY there because, “someone else will finish the event”. Event fails? “Doesn’t matter much. I was watching TV and hoping to get a reward on the side.”
Golem – One of the absolutely most insane spots to ‘not waypoint when dead’. It is literally right next to this particular event. Yet I still see people throw themselves into melee or mid-range without watching for attacks, dodging, etc. They die but they did a burst of dmg. The zerg will complete the event on their own.Again, the ‘Time Sink’ argument is frustrating to me. Would it be an enjoyable game if you sat down at your computer, logged into GW2, and within 30 seconds of logging in were handed everything to you?
There is no risk in combat, there is only reward – regardless of skill. Yes, this is my opinion. I’m allowed to share it.
Many have asked on this thread why, “so many want to make the game harder?” I can only speak for myself and not the rest. But my answer would be because it isn’t hard. Stupidity is rewarded in this game. Yes, there are reasons we die that are beyond our control sometimes – but they are overshadowed by the number of deaths that are avoidable.
Why do we even have DPS, Control, and Support roles? Why do we have combat mechanics? They’re a part of this game, or they are supposed to be, yet they are not being utilized.
As I’ve stated a few times on this thread. I’m not supporting permadeath, level reversal, or the removal of items/loot from a player’s inventory. Something temporary that can be seen as a penalty, but not so harsh that it would be game breaking for those that died by unfortunate means. Something that could be removed through some other means.
Many people have already given you a much better opinion and in better words than I have.
My favorite is the one that says something to the effect of “greater death penalties don’t make the game harder, they just make it more frustrating”. Why not reply to that one?
The problem is that quote is not true. lets say you have a dungeon where if people die, they cant be revived until the dungeon is over. That penalty has made the dungeon WAY more difficult, it also changes strategies, now getting someone alive is a priority, there will be tactics and strategies for dealing with someone being downed(so they wont die).
yes, it is also frustrating, but you SHOULD be frustrated when you die, its a negative situation. It should not be the expected behavior. It makes you actually desire to play better.This is a dungeon – if you fail the dungeon, you can just retry it. The bigger problem is that it leaves the person just sitting there until the dungeon is over.
this wasnt a serious suggestion for a game mechanic, more just illustrating how different death conditions can actually effect gameplay and difficulty a lot, since he and others a claiming that death conditions dont make anything more difficult.
I personally have never liked the way any MMORPG has dealt with death penalties. For me, dying in and of itself is punishment enough, and I try very hard to die as little as possible. However, I’m also not very good at the combat portion of the game, so I die. Sometimes a lot. For me, having to pay the cost of the waypoint is enough. I’m cheap (even with in-game currency), so any loss of money is a big deal for me.
I’m personally just fine with how it’s being handled in GW2.
Forum Warrior/Mesmer according to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Forum-Classes/first#post3577563
Generic positive reinforcement is only effective in smaller scale and rather closely supervised environments. The path of least resistance to increased rewards will always result in abuse of the system. Why do you think Electric fences and shock collars exist?
While it’s a nice idea, it won’t work. The smarter players will quickly figure out how to abuse the system, post it on forums like these and everyone will be earning the better rewards without learning to play better in a matter of days.
You mean exactly like what happens now….
So, they’re kitten ed if they do. kitten ed if they don’t. Anet may as well throw in the towel then.
There’s an old saying about trying to please everyone and time….. how does it go?
There is nothing wrong with attempting changes to improve the game, but the facts about human nature the “path of least resistance” will not change either in this game or RL.
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
You mean exactly like what happens now….
So, they’re kitten ed if they do. kitten ed if they don’t. Anet may as well throw in the towel then.
There’s an old saying about trying to please everyone and time….. how does it go?
There is nothing wrong with attempting changes to improve the game, but the facts about human nature the “path of least resistance” will not change either in this game or RL. What we are now talking about has nothing to do with Death Penalty, but the fact that the game does not do a very good job at teaching player HOW to properly play the game. Some classes reinforce bad habits (I’m looking at you Ranger….yes, I play one).
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Alternatively they could put in a reward for not dying, you already have an achievement for experience gained with out way porting, dying etc. Add another achievement for reaching level 80 without dying and one for world completion with out dying. complete with titles and chests (Been there, done that, didn’t die?)
Those particular ones would encourage craven and antisocial play.
In Guild Wars 1, before they changed Survivor to use cumulative XP gained between deaths (instead of something you can only fill up from level 1), I hated teaming with would-be Survivors. Because they tended to be absolute rubbish at supporting the team in tight spots. Way too timid and way too prone to abandoning the group.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
but part of the training means people have to actively avoid dying, right now its officially a good strat to zombie as fast as possible.
No, “not dying” isn’t a major part of that. The game does not use death as the main indication of failure. It uses “event succeed” and “event failed” to show the players how well they did. While often times not dying and event success go hand in hand, it’s not 100% correlation.
Die excessively and you lose things/have to restart
put the same exact mechanic in GW and its only effect is that its a time sink? odd logic.
You don’t see why? The contra example you provide is common among games from the nes and snes era. That system was used for two reasons. One was that many of those games are short games. It’s there to prolong them so players get their money’s worth despite being short. In other words, it is a proper time sink.
The other reason is many were ports of arcade games. Arcades used difficulty and frequent deaths to get people to put a lot of quarters into the game. In contras case, this is more likely as contra was originally an arcade game. As an aside for those that don’t know, the code mentioned is the Konami Code, and cheat codes like that were commonplace back then.
(edited by Fenrina.2954)
the death penalty can be increased a bit, i’d agree (make it mean something more than it does now)………but otherwise can’t disagree with the sentiment of the OP more.
if you want to play hardcore….do it. delete your character when it dies….no on is stopping you.
i’d rather they significantly increase rewards for no deaths (in instanced content). that would go farther in promoting less “zerk or nothing” parties.
Chaos Organ (Ele), Pistol Opera (Thief), Modular Man (Eng)
MARA (EU) Gunnar’s Hold
MARA (EU) Gunnar’s Hold
but part of the training means people have to actively avoid dying, right now its officially a good strat to zombie as fast as possible.
No, “not dying” isn’t a major part of that. The game does not use death as the main indication of failure. It uses “event succeed” and “event failed” to show the players how well they did. While often times not dying and event success go hand in hand, it’s not 100% correlation.
Die excessively and you lose things/have to restart
put the same exact mechanic in GW and its only effect is that its a time sink? odd logic.You don’t see why? The contra example you provide is common among games from the nes and snes era. That system was used for two reasons. One was that many of those games are short games. It’s there to prolong them so players get their money’s worth despite being short. In other words, it is a proper time sink.
The other reason is many were ports of arcade games. Arcades used difficulty and frequent deaths to get people to put a lot of quarters into the game. In contras case, this is more likely as contra was originally an arcade game. As an aside for those that don’t know, the code mentioned is the Konami Code, and cheat codes like that were commonplace back then.
If failure is supposed to teach us that’s a problem because very few contents can be failed. In general the way the design failure conditions Occur don’t teach most of the players who participate Hpw to pkay. Often people just die and keep going and if they ignore mechanics they still succeed.
As far as contra it wasn’t about time sink, its about challenge. In an arcade you lose more money the worse you play. Quarters act as both negative reinforcement and a clear measurement of skill and progress.
You take the quarters out, and now anyone can succeed, they don’t have much reason to dodge bullets, learn patterns, etc.
I had a friend who could beat contra with no deaths with the weak starter weapon. He was much better than me. I’m not gonna even try to say what he could do was not difficult. Many people in this thread would though
Which I find totally unreasonable.
No. So far, there is no good reason that’s been made that a greater death penalty would improve anything in the game. It’s not broken, no need to break it.
Death Penalties are essentially a form of time gate between attempts at a piece of content you cannot complete flawlessly. Humans learn through repetition. Slowing the learning process does not necessarily improve a player’s skill level. Making a player wait longer to reattempt a boss fight after he missed one dodge against the boss’ one shot kill attack does not increase the player’s skill at dodging the attack. A player that gets lucky and makes that dodge the first time will actually learn less than the player who fails and tries again.
What is needed, in my opinion, in general are not death penalties on the player but encounters that cannot be overcome with attrition. Bosses getting a “morale boost” that heals them for some small amount, or perhaps provides them with a short term invulnerability buff, when they defeat a character would incentivize not dying without directly penalizing a character.
actually death in games are not really about a time gate, its generally about showing you what you did wrong, or testing how skilled/intellegient you are. It is possible to design systems that dont use death and achieve the same thing, but in a game where you are role playing a adventurer, it make some sense.
I tend to agree. Keep in mind that I said, “death penalties,” are a form of time gate, not, “death in games.”
But i suppose some people dont really play games to face challenges, thats fine, but i think some parts of the game should be designed with challenge in mind.
I enjoy a challenge in a game. Having my armor take damage, or my character lose experience, or the like due to failing an encounter does not make the encounter itself any more challenging. More exciting perhaps. Knowing that you will face a form of punishment for not executing perfectly may very well add some spice to a difficult encounter, but that is all.
Imagine a DP system in which your credit card is billed $.10 every time your character dies. Would the Liadri fight be more difficult as a result ? Is the fight less difficult, or even easy, now, due to the lack of such a DP ?
…Of course not.
To me it makes the game as hard as it should be because of the risk. You’re just calling it “frustrating”, when I call the very same thing “harder” or “more difficult”, because you don’t agree with the topic at hand.
You do not speak for everyone.
You can easily make this game harder for yourself, please go do that.
No kitten, Sherlock. That’s why I said “to me”.
As for just making this game harder for myself. I’m afraid it is harder because I’m surrounded by a large number of people that don’t care to actually play like they give a kitten .
Next time you want to call me out for making it sound like I speak for everyone, you may want to make sure I’m doing just that.
I dont really like death penalties, but the deeper content seems to be suffering for its absence.
+1
Agree completely.
Positive reinforcement is much more effective than negative reinforcement.
Yes and no.
Positive reinforcement > Negative Reinforcement TRUE
+R and -R > Positive reinforcement alone TRUE
If you’re going to pull the operant conditioning card, you may as well acknowledge all of it. Training systems that rely strictly on +R alone tend to have their own negatives. An example in dog training: The canine in question does Behavior A and/or Command B because it knows, through consistent +R, that it will be rewarded. Canine subject then decides not to do Command B the next day because it is either not in the mood or Behavior X is more rewarding to the canine at that moment.
Positive Reinforcement alone has flaws. Major flaws.
But, if you can find a way to successfully monitor how much a player participates in content, you could easily implement a positive reinforcement system. The hardest part is finding a way to monitor participation (successful healing, support, control, etc, not just damage). I’m sure it can be done, it’s just a matter of whther the developers can/will.
Very good point.
I always do love when I’m running more support, reviving players, healing those in need, removing conditions, etc etc – but didn’t pump in enough damage so therefore didn’t get enough “credit”.
Alot of people who play GW2 are here because they don’t want hardcore.
A relatively minor death penalty, like the one that existed in Guild Wars, is not hardcore. It existed in both Normal mode and Hard mode. Nor was it game breaking.
Large difference is that Guild Wars was strictly instanced with its DP. However GW2 has both Open World and instanced content. It would be interesting to see if and how they would implement a similar DP into a game such as this one.
I understand that whenever ANYONE makes a suggestion on these forums that could even partially be described as increasing difficulty in this game, people tend to rage down on them like they’re nothing but evil people that want others to suffer. I’m afraid it isn’t true. I want everyone to play the game and have fun doing it. I REALLY do.
However this game is “easy mode” as is. It is not even close to being hardcore. An example of how easy it is to play in this game. I had a guildmate just the other night that was playing an Xbox game and another game on his laptop with his folks, all while “playing” GW2. Personally I don’t know how he does it… but the fact that he can… it says a lot about GW2.
Why are we so eager for gaining loot the fastest and easiest way possible, all the time? In the end, what is the point? If there is so little to be proud of…
DP strongly influence game play and strategy. Decisions you make in game fighting technique build are all influenced by it. GW2 has a minor armor repair one that was removed so now there is none.
I liked my minion DP. On death become a random dragon minion based on the map you are on and now we got open world pvp which is attached to lore and player generated content in one go. Have minions become hostile to npc in villages and such. Waypoint to turn back to normal or die second time.
I think resetting a dungeon because of excessive deaths would be fine. Outside of dungeons, I don’t see a need for more than a monetary penalty or temporary debuff for PvE.
Death penalty is not needed in PvP.
Death penalty can make the game harder, but a better and more direct way to increase difficulty is to simply make death more likely, e.g. stronger/more enemies, environment hazards, projectile spam, reduced attack telegraphing time…
Also, there are reasons to play a game beyond material reward/punishment/value/risk, such as aesthetic appreciation/attachment, the joy of customizing a character and seeing it in various settings. The intrinsic competitive thrill of victory/shame of defeat in PvP.
I liked my minion DP. On death become a random dragon minion based on the map you are on and now we got open world pvp
Well, I’d be cool with that, but mainly because of the open world PvP, not the death penalty part…
(edited by voidwater.2064)
A relatively minor death penalty, like the one that existed in Guild Wars, is not hardcore. It existed in both Normal mode and Hard mode. Nor was it game breaking.
Large difference is that Guild Wars was strictly instanced with its DP. However GW2 has both Open World and instanced content. It would be interesting to see if and how they would implement a similar DP into a game such as this one.
I understand that whenever ANYONE makes a suggestion on these forums that could even partially be described as increasing difficulty in this game, people tend to rage down on them like they’re nothing but evil people that want others to suffer. I’m afraid it isn’t true. I want everyone to play the game and have fun doing it. I REALLY do.
However this game is “easy mode” as is. It is not even close to being hardcore. An example of how easy it is to play in this game. I had a guildmate just the other night that was playing an Xbox game and another game on his laptop with his folks, all while “playing” GW2. Personally I don’t know how he does it… but the fact that he can… it says a lot about GW2.
Why are we so eager for gaining loot the fastest and easiest way possible, all the time? In the end, what is the point? If there is so little to be proud of…
I have to agree with you to a point on this. The game is very easy and it feels like it got even easier with the latest patches but usually the guys that pop up in these threads tend to be the ones wanting the perma death option and really set that vibe for other more casual readers of the forums.
As for the whole perma death option, in a game like this that idea is horrible. The game is not geared towards the uber hardcore. Its designed more towards the casual gamer. If perma death would be instituted the perma death of GW2 would follow suit, and we don’t want that.
To the whole risk vrs reward… the reward isn’t based on how much you are risking. its more based on RNG. Even if you look at just coin gain alone, getting a significant amount of gold in a day from drops is based on what you randomly happen to get. The only assured coin is from dungeon completion for the most part.
As for the “being proud” of getting loot… given the random nature of loot as it is I’d be “proud” of getting an exotic from some random trash mob… cus then it means that my luck isn’t totally against me today. Proud is more in the achievements category in this game. and even then there’s not much worthy of pride.
It is kind of funny when you look at these kinds of threads. They always tend to bring out extremists.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
Harsh death penalties would punish experimentation and discourage players from trying to solo stuff in order to get better (and profit from it).
(edited by FenrirSlakt.3692)
no
It is kind of funny when you look at these kinds of threads. They always tend to bring out extremists.
Agreed. Unfortunately a lot of people are looking at this thread as either pro-permadeath or anti-DP entirely.
You also made some good points. Thank you.
Death should be advoided….question is why. GW2 has systematically removed death penalties to where there is no consequences to wipes other then Time to try again. Because of this anything you do or accomplish is technically easy because no one ever counts the amount of deaths required. Everyone is also equivalently skilled cause there is no skill required to stay alive. I am bias but i would like this to be a discussion of death in GW2 and how you as a player feel it should be represented.
Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game. It is so easy to level in GW2 I honestly think you should be reset to level 1 honestly there would be no zerkers then and Anet would finally be able to dish out loot for bosses. End game wise it only takes you like 2 weeks to make an 80. Would remove a lot of boredum that is for sure.
guild wars 2 is a casual game.
the death penalty in guild wars 2 is fine as it is.
we do not fix what is not broken.
Death should be advoided….question is why. GW2 has systematically removed death penalties to where there is no consequences to wipes other then Time to try again. Because of this anything you do or accomplish is technically easy because no one ever counts the amount of deaths required. Everyone is also equivalently skilled cause there is no skill required to stay alive. I am bias but i would like this to be a discussion of death in GW2 and how you as a player feel it should be represented.
Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game. It is so easy to level in GW2 I honestly think you should be reset to level 1 honestly there would be no zerkers then and Anet would finally be able to dish out loot for bosses. End game wise it only takes you like 2 weeks to make an 80. Would remove a lot of boredum that is for sure.
guild wars 2 is a casual game.
the death penalty in guild wars 2 is fine as it is.
we do not fix what is not broken.
fix what there is nothing there. Some would argue a zero difficulty curve is something that needs to be fixed.
Death should be advoided….question is why. GW2 has systematically removed death penalties to where there is no consequences to wipes other then Time to try again. Because of this anything you do or accomplish is technically easy because no one ever counts the amount of deaths required. Everyone is also equivalently skilled cause there is no skill required to stay alive. I am bias but i would like this to be a discussion of death in GW2 and how you as a player feel it should be represented.
Without a difficult death system nothing is truly difficult in the game. It is so easy to level in GW2 I honestly think you should be reset to level 1 honestly there would be no zerkers then and Anet would finally be able to dish out loot for bosses. End game wise it only takes you like 2 weeks to make an 80. Would remove a lot of boredum that is for sure.
guild wars 2 is a casual game.
the death penalty in guild wars 2 is fine as it is.
we do not fix what is not broken.
fix what there is nothing there. Some would argue a zero difficulty curve is something that needs to be fixed.
before we continue this discussion further, have you played fractals difficulty level 50?
Ultimately I feel death should be felt and avoided through game mechanics somehow.
by the way, you are free to role play that kind of feelings when your in game characters died. you do not need in game mechanics to force those feelings onto yourself.
and i think you are in the minority here in this case. i am very sure that there are lot of people who are very happy with the current “death penalty” system of guild wars 2.
Ultimately I feel death should be felt and avoided through game mechanics somehow.
by the way, you are free to role play that kind of feelings when your in game characters died. you do not need in game mechanics to force those feelings onto yourself.
and i think you are in the minority here in this case. i am very sure that there are lot of people who are very happy with the current “death penalty” system of guild wars 2.
Really if I’m the voice of a minority i guess i should start speaking louder. To say there is a system in place is a joke I hope cause there is none. There are thousands of ways dp can be implemented some of which i find really interesting and wanted to discuss here. Although i should thank everyone who keep asking for no change for bumping the thread up. I just thought that having dp individualistic to each event in open world would be prity interesting on how they could be implemented. Dragon minions rising from your corpse and such. How you play and play style you use is directly correlate with consequences of your actions. Do you deny how game would be fundamentally different if a DP was in place? Then all we are arguing about right now is just degrees which ultimately we have no say over anyway.
I wonder if a placebo DP will have same effect as real one >.>
Ultimately I feel death should be felt and avoided through game mechanics somehow.
by the way, you are free to role play that kind of feelings when your in game characters died. you do not need in game mechanics to force those feelings onto yourself.
and i think you are in the minority here in this case. i am very sure that there are lot of people who are very happy with the current “death penalty” system of guild wars 2.
Really if I’m the voice of a minority i guess i should start speaking louder. To say there is a system in place is a joke I hope cause there is none. There are thousands of ways dp can be implemented some of which i find really interesting and wanted to discuss here. Although i should thank everyone who keep asking for no change for bumping the thread up. I just thought that having dp individualistic to each event in open world would be prity interesting on how they could be implemented. Dragon minions rising from your corpse and such. How you play and play style you use is directly correlate with consequences of your actions. Do you deny how game would be fundamentally different if a DP was in place? Then all we are arguing about right now is just degrees which ultimately we have no say over anyway.
I wonder if a placebo DP will have same effect as real one >.>
what if when there is excessive death at an event, the big powerful enemies leave or step back and send some weaker enemies with less good drops.
essentially the enemy jumps back and says, another dead cow, walks away and the B team comes in and fight. In dungeons you could have certain events/enemies that only trigger based on how well you did.
They could also have more champions and varied enemies sent to places where they succeed a lot, maybe some uniques. Thats one problem with orr it gets less interesting with more success.
It could really be more dynamic this way, if players performance effected content in zones. Of course it might be too impersonal, some people will just figure they arent losing anything ad play crappily
Before we continue this discussion further, have you played fractals difficulty level 50?
Hue.
I think that the best way they could do a death penalty is something akin to what was in GW1. While ultimately from a lore perspective the meaning of death has not been the same ever since Grenth took over from Dhuum (He was pro permadeath btw) it wouldn’t be to hard to imagine the same system here. Grenth “Punished” players by taking a chunk of their stats 1-60% (at 15% per death) but never more than 60%. This was cleared if you used certain items, zones into a city or outpost, or killed a boss (denoted by special aura glows). The same could easily apply here with vets, elites, champs and legendary mobs taking a chunk of the death penalty away at a time or, for simplicity sake, it wares off over time.
The only problem is from a lore standpoint the Gods are missing…so “Grenth in unable to punish you at the moment. Please leave your name and number after the tone, Thank you.”
While this would ultimately mean that experimentation would be more difficult in certain instances it also makes the game a bit more anti-zerg. If you actually have to think about the enemies moves and how to avoid getting hit rather than just face tank everything it leads to a more worth wile experience in my opinion. It would definitely be interesting trying to do that against the countless dungeon bosses which most “meta” players want to melee into the corner of a room and call that skill…
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer
what if when there is excessive death at an event, the big powerful enemies leave or step back and send some weaker enemies with less good drops.
Not sure about that. Mainly because any system that had such a drastic impact on the groups performance would ‘cause even more elitism in open world content. Where as if we could find a way to penalize the individual players for dying, which may or may not slow a group’s performance down, I think that would be more reasonable.
Granted I would want for the “group” at an event to see a downed player and try harder to revive them before they die, and your suggestion may do just that. However I also wouldn’t want the players that are trying, are thinking on their feet, are communicating – Well I wouldn’t want them to be largely affected.
I think that the best way they could do a death penalty is something akin to what was in GW1. While ultimately from a lore perspective the meaning of death has not been the same ever since Grenth took over from Dhuum (He was pro permadeath btw) it wouldn’t be to hard to imagine the same system here. Grenth “Punished” players by taking a chunk of their stats 1-60% (at 15% per death) but never more than 60%. This was cleared if you used certain items, zones into a city or outpost, or killed a boss (denoted by special aura glows). The same could easily apply here with vets, elites, champs and legendary mobs taking a chunk of the death penalty away at a time or, for simplicity sake, it wares off over time.
The only problem is from a lore standpoint the Gods are missing…so “Grenth in unable to punish you at the moment. Please leave your name and number after the tone, Thank you.”
While this would ultimately mean that experimentation would be more difficult in certain instances it also makes the game a bit more anti-zerg. If you actually have to think about the enemies moves and how to avoid getting hit rather than just face tank everything it leads to a more worth wile experience in my opinion. It would definitely be interesting trying to do that against the countless dungeon bosses which most “meta” players want to melee into the corner of a room and call that skill…
Agreed.
As for ArenaNet’s stance on “death” not really existing in GW2 because of the lore situation – I find it funny that I can still use /death but /defeated does nothing. Which if you don’t know, is what ArenaNet now calls the “death” status.
I’d say the death system in this game is fine. It’s a half way meet between traditional MMO time wasting penalty optimized for sustaining multiple players to the simplicity of death penalties in your typical single player RPG (not counting rouge likes)
The current death penalty is potentially having to pay for a wp cost. At the moment death is more a penalty to those around you than to the dead themselves. A dead guy still boosts the world boss. This is only further amplified by the whole “if I wait around long enough I’ll get resed by some nice guy running by.” In normal instances this is fairly true. In a major world boss event….usually the dead is getting cursed at by everyone still alive.
In my opinion the death system needs to be tweaked some way so that the mentality that is normally inflicted on people (the one mentioned above) from the start doesn’t effect the world boss events. In that regard I doubt any kind of death penalty would change things.
lvl80{Insert Class Here} Current main: Meana Mischeif-Mesmer