Guild Wars 2

I’ve been playing for a while now without mentioning this much, but….in a game which prided itself on removing much of the griefing and trolling that occurs in other MMOs, and with the goal of fostering a positive community of good-natured players….why have you left SO MANY options available for players to grief and troll each other?

Don’t get me wrong, you did a great job. Loot tables are individualized so no fighting over loot, everyone gets XP for kills, no resource node griefing, etc. But there are some areas of this game which leave even larger gaps available in terms of griefing options, and it blows my mind that they weren’t noticed before the game even came out. In fact, some of them I remember seeing players complaining about back then, too.

I’m just going to cover the three that bug me most, I leave it to others to provide their own pet peeves in this area:

1) You chose not to add player-to-player direct trade because of the possibility of scamming, and claim that the Trading Post and mail system perfectly supplement them…but they don’t. Sometimes I want to trade with a very specific stranger and don’t trust him to pay me after I give him the shiny. The Trading Post only allows broad-spectrum trades, and the Mail system requires putting a LOT of trust in whoever you’re sending your stuff to. It makes me think that the REAL reason you refuse to add P2P direct trade is because your professional economist decided that the world needed that extra gold sink of Trading Post fees. Well, I hate to break it to your professional economist, but in the real world, sometimes even complete strangers trade their products for money with each other and it’s not done through a store, but rather a direct face-to-face trade. And the tax man doesn’t come riding in on a horse to stop the transaction, nor does he assess taxes on those trades. I’ve purchased used games in this manner before. Yes, it’s possible that someone will be scammed as a result of P2P trade. But it’s no more likely than through the mail system you’re trying to push on us, in fact it’s far easier to scam someone through the mail. And reporting would still be an option, provided you program the trading system to keep a log of transactions (which I know you can do). Your game doesn’t offer a basic feature in numerous other MMOs and RPGs, including GW1.

2) You introduce jumping puzzles in World vs World and then make that one of the absolute best ways of getting Badges of Honor….and yet you don’t include any sort of invunerability buff in that area to prevent players from attacking each other or camping the puzzle, preventing other factions from completion. I’m sorry but the very last place I want to fight is a jumping puzzle. Often as a matter of courtesy since the puzzle is the “true enemy”, I let enemy players continue through the puzzle. In fact, not a few minutes before posting this, I allowed a Kaineng thief through the Mistwrought Vault in EB’s map, and I have no problem with that….the problem is the other three Kaineng players who thought they’d get their giggles from trying to kill us (I killed at least two such people). Not everyone is so courteous. This also happens a lot in the borderlands spawn points, where a team will camp the borderlands gate and kill anyone who tries to pass through….a legit strategy, but still mean-spirited. This is so easily fixed that it’s surprising you haven’t already fixed it in the four months of time since the game came out.

3) One common way to grief an AFK player is to aggro mobs and then run past the AFKer. The mobs will eventually leave your aggro and target the AFKer, resulting in his death. Now yes, it was stupid of him to AFK anywhere except a city. But I’ve seen a lot of newer players get fooled in this manner and it’s sort of sad you don’t have an “AFK” mechanic in place to prevent it. Especially since GW1 could identify when you had been idle for an extended period and mark you as AFK. GW2, on the other hand, insists on waiting until you’ve been AFK for (it seems like) much longer, and then kicks you from the game. But by then it’s often too late. You need to make it possible for players to AFK at will.

I have deep respect for the players out there who keep to some code of ethics and help their fellow players. You have a good community in the game, ANet, for the most part. But it really bugs me that there are still holes in the fabric, ways available for that minority of people who get their jollies out of spoiling other people’s fun to keep causing trouble for the rest of us. Please try to remove these things from the game so that the game will be completely centered around all of the good-natured people in Tyria, rather than a haven for spoil-sports!

Hmmm.

1.) I agree there are far too many gold sinks in the game, but I’m sure the mail system was never intended to be used as a form of trade, but instead to share stuff with friends/guildies. So if you’re using it to perform trades, you’re setting your own self up to be scammed. Hell, all I use it for is to send offline messages to friends.

2.) Don’t be bad? I’ve killed hundreds if not thousands in the EB jump puzzle, and yes a lot of people go there and don’t give a crap about the chest, but kill people instead. It’s very easy to trait for survival and run by people. Learn to hide, learn to use stability, use the stealth fountains efficiently, and you’ll be fine. If it’s so camped you think you’ll never get the chest, it’s not too hard to form a mob and conquer it.

3.) I actually haven’t seen anyone pull stuff on me while afk for the purpose of griefing, though what I do find annoying is when you’re minding your own business, completing a heart or something, and some obnoxious/ignorant player runs by with aggro that’s chasing him, and as a result you’re now fighting 10 things instead of 1. As for being kicked from the game while afk, simple fix: ctrl+right click your heal skill so that it’ll autocast. As long as you’re using skills the game won’t kick you out and you can afk for extended periods of time. If you’re dead and about to be kicked from a map, but don’t want to be, open up your h panel and take off / put back on armor and it will stop calling you “inactive.”

1.) Tax agencies DO tax bartered goods. Not sure which country you come from that don’t doesn’t do that. And how exactly does having a trading post equate to griefing and trolling. Really? Your fault for taking the risk of mail transactions. Not Arenanet’s fault.

2.) You expect to go to a WvW area and be greeted with kisses and hugs? You don’t like getting killed, don’t go to the area.

3.) Their fault for being afk.

So I love using the outpost, I kill people in puzzles, and I don’t even bother rezzing people who are afk. If that makes me a griefer, kitten I’m a bad person. I should get banned.

1) p2p mail trading is the equivalent of using the black market, if you get scammed, it’s your own fault for going outside the framework set-up to protect you and the economy.

2) it’s a PvP zone, enemies attacking you is not griefing, it’s the point of the mode you are playing. Sure, some players choose to let enemy players pass, that’s their prerogative. Mine is to kill or impede invaders in any way I can.

3) Don’t go afk in a hostile zone. If you want to “safely” go afk, just log out. it won’t cost you anything.

There are some actual ways to grief in the game but these 3 examples are not griefing.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

1) p2p mail trading is the equivalent of using the black market, if you get scammed, it’s your own fault for going outside the framework set-up to protect you and the economy.

2) it’s a PvP zone, enemies attacking you is not griefing, it’s the point of the mode you are playing. Sure, some players choose to let enemy players pass, that’s their prerogative. Mine is to kill or impede invaders in any way I can.

3) Don’t go afk in a hostile zone. If you want to “safely” go afk, just log out. it won’t cost you anything.

There are some actual ways to grief in the game but these 3 examples are not griefing.

Here are some griefing scenarios:
-choir bell spamming
-luring mobs to node miners
-dropping lots of siege at a door to prevent people from supplying one at a time
-luring more mobs to someone solo’ing champs/vets
-taking aggro and luring mob away

The three OP listed are just things he/she doesn’t like in the game and wants to be tailored to his/her tastes.

I actually do the mob killing afker a lot, it’s a lot of fun and really satisfying to watch their every piece of armor gets destroyed slowly in the process. Yes, I just want to watch others suffer, no other particular reasons. I do it whenever I see characters standing in some places with mobs around, even if they’re not afking.

Ways not to get griefed:
1) Dont trade outside of the TP. Its a good enough system and the gold sink is actually good for the game.
2) Roam the JP with a group of server buddies. The WvW JPs are in a PvP zone so you cannot expect to roam through there without coming up against someone/people with the potential to kill you or stifle your progress. If the JPs became PvE areas they would have to reduce the number of badges gained due to the ease of getting them! In that case youve not added anything to the game.
3) Why afk in the outside world when you click twice to go Into the Mists where youre perfectly safe? Its really not hard.

All three are non-issues in my opinion.

If I am trying to do some pve (or anything at all) in a pvp zone, I expect to be attacked at any moment. It IS a pvp zone, after all. If people want to pve safely, they should stay in pve-only zones.

If I’m foolish enough to go afk in an area where I can be attacked by npcs, regardless of whether they are pulled to me by another player, that is my fault.

Some times you need be slapped in game and in the forums…..dont be stupid, you dont get slapped.

critickitten.1498:

Often as a matter of courtesy since the puzzle is the “true enemy”, I let enemy players continue through the puzzle. In fact, not a few minutes before posting this, I allowed a Kaineng thief through the Mistwrought Vault in EB’s map, and I have no problem with that….the problem is the other three Kaineng players who thought they’d get their giggles from trying to kill us (I killed at least two such people). Not everyone is so courteous.

Nothing personal, but you’re not contributing to your server. You’re a waste of a spot in the wvw queue. I wish they’d just remove these JPs from wvw.

Yeah wvw really needs the best way to get badges be from actually participating.

OP, don’t be silly. A trade window would be nice, your other suggestions are kitten.

It seems to me that the OP is less about griefing, and more about requesting features the game does not currently support.

1) Trading outside of the TP is a feature. The mail system was not intended for trades between strangers. Adding a trade feature would increase griefing, not reduce it. People will scam, given an opportunity. At least with the current system the potential victim in a mail-based scam ought to know better.

2) WvW is a PvP zone. You are asking for a feature allowing players to be immune to PvP in a PvP zone while in a JP. While there is nothing wrong with asking for such, accusing people of griefing because they are PvPing in a PvP zone seems like a stretch.

3) This is asking for an immunity feature for someone who wants to AFK in an area where combat can occur. As others have pointed out, there is an easy fix for this.

We may need to agree to disagree over these items, but I do not believe that players are entitled to a PtP trade system, immunity to PvP in a PvP zone, or immunity to attack while AFK.

I don’t know why they give badges from the jp anyway. Like the guy above me said you should get them from participating in combat like taking keeps or defending.

I love how people are taking personal offense to me pointing out problems with the game and are going so far as to insult me over it rather than provide genuine feedback. That really builds a productive discussion. Oh wait, no it doesn’t.

Rebuttal to those dissing point 1: A direct Peer-To-Peer trading system is something commonly requested by many players in the game, and a common feature of virtually every MMO on the market, including GW1. ANet currently either expects players to risk scamming via the mail system, or else always put items up on the trading post (where you risk them not selling immediately). What if you’re right next to someone who would happily buy the item from you after a little haggling, something that many players do in every other MMO out there? Tough luck I guess. I can’t actually believe people are trying to argue that P2P trading is somehow less safe than the mail system they replaced it with, it’s the most ridiculous assertion I’ve ever seen. There’s nothing wrong with P2P trading and it is extremely safe and effective so long as you check what you’re trading BEFORE you hit “accept”. This argument of “your fault if you trust someone with mail” can be easily reversed: it’s your own fault if you trade via P2P and don’t check the contents of the sale before accepting it.

Rebuttal to those dissing point 2: The problem is that the devs stated that WvW is considered a “PvE” zone, and they put jumping puzzles in there with that thought in mind and didn’t consider the fact that players would naturally abuse the PvP nature of WvW to keep people from completing the puzzles. I absolutely agree that the puzzles shouldn’t even be there, and that it’s not really fair to say that people PvPing in a PvP zone is bad….but again, that’s not the player’s fault, it’s the devs’ faults for declaring that WvW is officially a PvE zone and then placing these features inside of it. This is like complaining that people will inevitably use cars to stage races in the streets. Yes, it’s an unintended side effect of having cars, but when you create cars that go far beyond the speed limit and then design parts for the purposes of modifying those cars to have nearly-illegal performance levels, you don’t really get to complain about how the customers use those cars. WvW is considered PvE by the devs, ergo it needs to be designed so that players are not able to disrupt each other’s experiences as the puzzles are supposed to be the real challenge. This is why a lot of people have expressed hatred over the shared jumping puzzles: having other people there disrupts their own experience. The WvW puzzles are that, except magnified because now those other players can also shoot you off a cliff.

Rebuttal to those dissing point 3: As I already stated in my original post, yes, it is the player’s own fault for AFKing outside of a city. On the other hand, there is NO in-game tutorial that warns them about this. None. The player generally gets to find out the hard way. And in a game where the learning curve is steep as is, it’s best not to design your game lacking things that a new player would expect. It’s not “babying the game down” to allow players to AFK, it’s not “appealing to the casual market”, it’s nothing except a simple function that would allow players to keep the game running. GW1 dealt with AFKing better than GW2 does (and mind, GW1 still allows AFKers to die quite horribly but at least it lets those players stay online), that’s not a positive step forward for the genre. The game clearly knows when you’re not playing because it kicks you eventually, but in the mean time, that opens up avenues for new players to possibly get trolled, and after you get an AFK boot you have to re-login. I don’t see why the idea of a player-enabled AFK mode (which you can disable for WvW to prevent any issues there) is so offensive to people that they have to get outraged and have rustled jimmies at the very thought of it.

magicthighs.5372:

Nothing personal, but you’re not contributing to your server. You’re a waste of a spot in the wvw queue. I wish they’d just remove these JPs from wvw.

General rule of thumb: if you have to start off a post with “nothing personal”, you’re about to insult the poster, which is making it personal. It’s like saying “no offense” because the next words you say are guaranteed to be something offensive.

As for the expressed opinion itself: my server isn’t very good in WvW to begin with, and doesn’t have enough players to fill the queue most of the time, so I’m not “wasting a spot in the queue” as there isn’t one to begin with. Also, I’m an active contributor to WvW almost daily. I just also run the puzzle because it’s more efficient for getting badges than killing players due to terrible loot drops (another thing they need to fix).

Because they aren’t problems with the game.

1) Okay, yeah I can agree a trading system would be nice. But I wouldn’t say you’re taking a ‘risk’ if something doesn’t sell immediately.

2) When did they say WvW was PvE over PvP? It’s both, and with a greater influence of PvP. JP shouldn’t be as rewarding as they are in WvW, but for people like me who like PvP and JP, well, I absolutely adore them. If you don’t want to participate in PvP, do JP in the open world. There are tones.

Oh, and I completely disagree with your statement about speeding not being the drivers fault? :/ I hope that’s not what you meant by this and I’m just not understanding your point.

3) I suppose some people might feel this should be implemented, but then again after, as you said you learn the hard way, you’re not going to do it again are you?

It doesn’t matter WHAT anyone does to prevent trolling/griefing. They will ALWAYS find a way around it.

emikochan.8504:

Because they aren’t problems with the game.

I actually laughed out loud at this post. There are always problems in every game. There is no such thing as perfection.

Even the devs have admitted that things aren’t going as well as they’d hoped and that they’re working on it. You can’t possibly believe that the game is absolutely perfect as is, that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Because even the devs don’t think that.

Lil Green Dragn.8049:

2) When did they say WvW was PvE over PvP? It’s both, and with a greater influence of PvP.

It’s designed to function like PvE.

It’s considered part of the PvE world for map completion, provides kills and resource hubs and loot drops just like PvE, and kills/activities there contribute towards PvE achievements. Also, all of the PvE events thus far have altered the WvW maps as well….such as the Wintersday gifts, which appeared not only in normal PvE maps but also WvW.

It’s a PvE world in which PvP exists. I don’t disagree that PvP is the bulk of it, as it should be, but it’s clearly considered a PvE zone by the developers. So if they want to consider it a PvE zone, it would make sense for the zone to follow the PvE philosophy of “players helping players”.

Oh, and I completely disagree with your statement about speeding not being the drivers fault? :/ I hope that’s not what you meant by this and I’m just not understanding your point.

No, that’s not it at all. I’m saying that the car’s manufacturers can’t exactly come out and say “hey, stop using our barely-street-legal car to race” if they built it that way.

They built WvW as a PvE zone. Ergo it should follow their PvE philosophy. Honestly I don’t think the puzzles should exist in there at all. But since they do and they aren’t going away, it only makes sense to design them with the notion that rival servers will be naturally inclined to troll each others’ jumping puzzles. I believe strongly in their philosophy of creating a cooperative game environment, and to that end, I think killing in JPs should be off-limits.

3) I suppose some people might feel this should be implemented, but then again after, as you said you learn the hard way, you’re not going to do it again are you?

Ah, but herein lies the core question you must ask yourself, then:

Do you want to design your game around learning via helpful tool tips, experience, and friendly advice from fellow players, things which all promote healthy interaction and make the game easier to learn and get engaged in?

Or do you want to design your game around trial-and-error and/or insta-death mechanics that are intended to frustrate you with their difficulty so that you feel some sense of achievement by surpassing these things?

I think the devs intend to make the former, but in several areas I see a lot of the latter elements. And that’s not very good design mostly because it’s inconsistent. The game’s learning curve isn’t necessarily easy for someone used to traditional MMOs or RPGs. You may not win them over by frustrating them in early portions of the game with things like this, and you certainly don’t win many fans over to your new model by encouraging the use of such frustration mechanics more and more as you get further in the game (which GW2 most certainly does).

My suggestion is not intended to “baby down” the game as some would claim, but rather to add a useful feature that all levels could benefit from, one that helps avoid errors that might frustrate a newer player not used to this sort of game.

critickitten.1498:

It’s considered part of the PvE world for map completion, provides kills and resource hubs and loot drops just like PvE, and kills/activities there contribute towards PvE achievements. Also, all of the PvE events thus far have altered the WvW maps as well….such as the Wintersday gifts, which appeared not only in normal PvE maps but also WvW.

It’s a PvE world in which PvP exists. I don’t disagree that PvP is the bulk of it, as it should be, but it’s clearly considered a PvE zone by the developers. So if they want to consider it a PvE zone, it would make sense for the zone to follow the PvE philosophy of “players helping players”.

I think that, rather than a PvE zone, the devs consider WvW to be a “mixed PvE/PvP” zone, which would make it PvPvE. It’s sort of like a PvP server in other games, albeit with rather more PvP objectives and less PvE ones because it’s not a PvP-enabled copy of the entire PvE world. Saying that the same dynamics that apply in the open world should apply in WvW ignores the fact that players can fight each other, and especially that WvW exists to allow players to fight each other in a less controlled environment than sPvP.

I’ve never been griefed or trolled. Today I did my rich ori pop real quick and we (3-5 strangers) were all up on rezzing and aggroing for each other. Your request for custom options is just a request for custom options.

1 is an additional feature you want – suggestions forum is the best place.
2 is meant to be fought over, it is a WvW resource. For those wishing not to fight they even provide invisibility buffs. This I would say is working as intended. Player to player combat in a zone designed for it is not griefing.
3 is user error.

None of the things you mentioned are griefing.

I don’t think players need a tutorial about where to log out. imo it’s not a big deal to be killed in this game. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’ve never lost gear or items as a result of being killed, either by npcs or by another player. All it costs me is repair money, and I don’t remember hearing anyone say they couldn’t afford to repair their gear.

Sometimes the best lesson is to actually experience cause and effect. Go afk some place where you can be attacked. Die. Lesson learned, and without a tutorial.

critickitten.1498:

emikochan.8504:

Because they aren’t problems with the game.

I actually laughed out loud at this post. There are always problems in every game. There is no such thing as perfection.

Even the devs have admitted that things aren’t going as well as they’d hoped and that they’re working on it. You can’t possibly believe that the game is absolutely perfect as is, that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Because even the devs don’t think that.

Lil Green Dragn.8049:

2) When did they say WvW was PvE over PvP? It’s both, and with a greater influence of PvP.

It’s designed to function like PvE.

It’s considered part of the PvE world for map completion, provides kills and resource hubs and loot drops just like PvE, and kills/activities there contribute towards PvE achievements. Also, all of the PvE events thus far have altered the WvW maps as well….such as the Wintersday gifts, which appeared not only in normal PvE maps but also WvW.

It’s a PvE world in which PvP exists. I don’t disagree that PvP is the bulk of it, as it should be, but it’s clearly considered a PvE zone by the developers. So if they want to consider it a PvE zone, it would make sense for the zone to follow the PvE philosophy of “players helping players”.

Oh, and I completely disagree with your statement about speeding not being the drivers fault? :/ I hope that’s not what you meant by this and I’m just not understanding your point.

No, that’s not it at all. I’m saying that the car’s manufacturers can’t exactly come out and say “hey, stop using our barely-street-legal car to race” if they built it that way.

They built WvW as a PvE zone. Ergo it should follow their PvE philosophy. Honestly I don’t think the puzzles should exist in there at all. But since they do and they aren’t going away, it only makes sense to design them with the notion that rival servers will be naturally inclined to troll each others’ jumping puzzles. I believe strongly in their philosophy of creating a cooperative game environment, and to that end, I think killing in JPs should be off-limits.

3) I suppose some people might feel this should be implemented, but then again after, as you said you learn the hard way, you’re not going to do it again are you?

Ah, but herein lies the core question you must ask yourself, then:

Do you want to design your game around learning via helpful tool tips, experience, and friendly advice from fellow players, things which all promote healthy interaction and make the game easier to learn and get engaged in?

Or do you want to design your game around trial-and-error and/or insta-death mechanics that are intended to frustrate you with their difficulty so that you feel some sense of achievement by surpassing these things?

I think the devs intend to make the former, but in several areas I see a lot of the latter elements. And that’s not very good design mostly because it’s inconsistent. The game’s learning curve isn’t necessarily easy for someone used to traditional MMOs or RPGs. You may not win them over by frustrating them in early portions of the game with things like this, and you certainly don’t win many fans over to your new model by encouraging the use of such frustration mechanics more and more as you get further in the game (which GW2 most certainly does).

My suggestion is not intended to “baby down” the game as some would claim, but rather to add a useful feature that all levels could benefit from, one that helps avoid errors that might frustrate a newer player not used to this sort of game.

He said that “they” are not problems with the game, not “there” are no problems with the game.

WvW is primarily a PvP zone, the jumping puzzle rewards PvP rewards so if you have no interest in PvP what are you doing there in the first place.

This game has flaws, no direct trading is one of them but complaining about getting killed in a PvP zone, really?

“Babying down” and accessibility go hand in hand, which is what you are suggesting. And this game has enough hand holding as is.

critickitten.1498:

Rebuttal to those dissing point 2: The problem is that the devs stated that WvW is considered a “PvE” zone, and they put jumping puzzles in there with that thought in mind and didn’t consider the fact that players would naturally abuse the PvP nature of WvW to keep people from completing the puzzles.

That statement doesn’t make a lot of sense given that the devs purposefully placed triggered traps in the EB puzzle as a tool for players to hinder opponents from completing the puzzle.