Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

3. That might actually make it worst. People might get suspicious others in their group got items they’re keeping secret to sell for profit. For this to work transparency is a must and item drops would have to be visible to all in the party. I dont see it working otherwise.

I’m not saying to use this system on everything in the game, the couple of silver from Ascended Armors/Weapons/Rings isn’t worth the inventory slot. And if anything only guilds / friends will use the system, or good hearted individuals who want to share their luck with others.

OK you can salvage some accound bound exotics for ectos, or salvage that Carapace Coat you got for some extra Silk. That’s why keeping them hidden is important, otherwise we get the “pay me 5s before I give it you”.

Do you suspect someone of getting a Fractal skin when you finish a Fotm run? I certainly don’t because there is hardly any reason to lie.

In short I am sure we all got good drops that we really didnt care for. Essentially its a good drop thats “wasted”. your system makes that 5 times less likely to happen on average. The question is did designers take that into consideration when choosing drop rates?

I think the developers should focus on the individual chances of an item dropping, no matter where it will end up in the end. But of course that’s a question for the devs and how they see it

5s before I give it to you is great, I am more worried about hey you want this chest piece give me 25g or continue taking your chances with the rng gods up to you. But anyhow even if drops are secret they can still happen. That and potentially much worst scamming. Hey send me 10g and I send it to you. Tks for the 10g I think I will keep the item to bye bye tks for your donation etc…

Serophous.9085:

Obtena.7952:

Exactly. The idea just recasts the grind into some other form that is more pleasing to some players, but it still exists. Somehow, they have convinced themselves it’s a better option. Adding more avenues to allow grind is not a way to fix grinding. That’s been my biggest issue with his suggestion all through 40+ pages of these threads. Doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge that.

~

“And that’s why all his suggestions are just laughable and pointless.” You seem to think there would be one solution to solve it all and I claim to have that solution. Not sure where you get that from but I do not think that and I never say that. When talking about this subject I always talk about how the effect of the grind depends on your preferred game-play.

So if you think there is one solution to solve it all you are wrong and you are right that my solution is also not that solution. But instead of being so mad that my solution does not work for you, you could also add your on solution. That would be way more helpful.

My idea’s maybe don’t work ‘are bad’ for you. They do work for another big group. Maybe your solution would help your group.. then again, where is your solution?

“Anet gave their definition and that was that, but people here cannot accept it because it isn’t their definition.” Also Anet did not give their definition, they said what type of grind they tried to prevent with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’. In fact they even acknowledge the grind I talk about was there (and by doing so acknowledge also according to them it falls in the definition of grind).

The thing we discuss here is that also that grind is a problem, whether they try to solve that part with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’ or not because grind is still grind.

Anyway, by coming up with this again you keep running in circles. So if you really want to help the thread you would come with your idea or solution instead of keep running in circles.

Only telling somebody’s else solution does not work for you and starting again to talk about Anets definition and people definition does not help.

maddoctor.2738:

Well this has been discussed a lot before. The basic idea is that something is not “optional” if it blocks you from experiencing content. And “optional” is anything that is only pretty and doesn’t lock you out of content. Even the developers who make this game make the split between optional and required grind, so no need to say it’s not a valid argument, if it’s where the developers are basing the entire game on.

Only “not optional” thing in guild wars 2 is agony resistance. Almost all other content can be “done” without any armor and trinkets, you just need some weapons. Some classes don’t even need weapons – engis, eles, warriors.

maddoctor.2738:

Now imagine this situation:

You get a Fractal Sword but already have it, your friend gets a Fractal Dagger that they already have, you want a Fractal Dagger, they want a Fractal Sword. Both players are super unhappy.

Uh… I don’t see how this is a counter argument to what I said. Yes, it is still RNG, and you can get fractal sword instead of fractal dagger 10000 times in a row. You already can get sword instead of dagger 10000 times in a row. But if drop will be guaranteed at lvl 50, it will be much better. It will be a lot more better if you will be able to throw fractal skins into mystic forge to receive 1 other fractal skin.

Yes, it’s not a perfect solution. Perfect solution would be making such drops 100% dependent on corresponding achievements. Want fractal sword skin? Do this achievement. Want fractal dagger skin? Do that achievement.

maddoctor.2738:

Why does RNG FEEL better in a more traditional MMORPG system? Let’s do a comparisson between the two, by imagining how Fractals would work in a more traditional loot distribution system:

[…]

That’s a pretty good point but I don’t think that devs will make system more “traditional” and add loot distribution.

CutePicsHunter.7430:

Uh… I don’t see how this is a counter argument to what I said. Yes, it is still RNG, and you can get fractal sword instead of fractal dagger 10000 times in a row. You already can get sword instead of dagger 10000 times in a row. But if drop will be guaranteed at lvl 50, it will be much better. It will be a lot more better if you will be able to throw fractal skins into mystic forge to receive 1 other fractal skin.

It wasn’t supposed to be a counter argument because I agree with you. I just gave another example. I probably failed at typing it correctly!

maddoctor.2738:

Why does RNG FEEL better in a more traditional MMORPG system? Let’s do a comparisson between the two, by imagining how Fractals would work in a more traditional loot distribution system:

[…]

That’s a pretty good point but I don’t think that devs will make system more “traditional” and add loot distribution.

Well, I’ve already listed various benefits of using a different loot distribution system over what we currently have. I think the pros are too many to neglect, while the cons are tweakable to be lessened or even removed.

Adding some form of loot distribution IS going to reduce the grind seen by the players. If only the devs would see it.

I hope HoT hardcore content is NOT Instanced based (like a raid) if it uses the same reward system we have now. Instanced/hardcore content cannot work without proper loot distribution!

Galen Grey.4709:

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

3. That might actually make it worst. People might get suspicious others in their group got items they’re keeping secret to sell for profit. For this to work transparency is a must and item drops would have to be visible to all in the party. I dont see it working otherwise.

I’m not saying to use this system on everything in the game, the couple of silver from Ascended Armors/Weapons/Rings isn’t worth the inventory slot. And if anything only guilds / friends will use the system, or good hearted individuals who want to share their luck with others.

OK you can salvage some accound bound exotics for ectos, or salvage that Carapace Coat you got for some extra Silk. That’s why keeping them hidden is important, otherwise we get the “pay me 5s before I give it you”.

Do you suspect someone of getting a Fractal skin when you finish a Fotm run? I certainly don’t because there is hardly any reason to lie.

In short I am sure we all got good drops that we really didnt care for. Essentially its a good drop thats “wasted”. your system makes that 5 times less likely to happen on average. The question is did designers take that into consideration when choosing drop rates?

I think the developers should focus on the individual chances of an item dropping, no matter where it will end up in the end. But of course that’s a question for the devs and how they see it

5s before I give it to you is great, I am more worried about hey you want this chest piece give me 25g or continue taking your chances with the rng gods up to you. But anyhow even if drops are secret they can still happen. That and potentially much worst scamming. Hey send me 10g and I send it to you. Tks for the 10g I think I will keep the item to bye bye tks for your donation etc…

There is no point in making a loot distribution system for account bound gear if it works the same way as trading on the TP (or trading with mails) This is indeed the trickiest part, how to design a ui/interface for it, while not allowing players to get scammed.

I’m sure if there is a positive agreement by the game designers that this idea of sharing loot is needed / important, then they can think some interesting solutions to this, obviously very important, problem.

Possible solutions:

1) allow players to “opt-out” from getting specific gear types that they already own, so other players in the party get them instead. The system can then be completely transparent for the players, they won’t see anything at all. The main problems are
a) you won’t be able to give the item to a specific person
b) players won’t “opt-out” so they get the items (even for 5s)

2) allow players to “send/gift” the items while they are in the same group. Right click on someone → send gift (only for account bound items, doesn’t work like mail). This is easily scammable as someone might post a chat link of an item they don’t have, or they won’t honor the “deal” at all. To prevent this from happening they could add a timer (20 seconds?) when they get an item that keeps the item party-bound for that timer only. So players need to work super fast to transfer their gear, not enough time to “bargain”. Of course this has some obvious drawbacks too

I’m trying to think of some better ways of doing this

maddoctor.2738:

Fortunately in this game you don’t HAVE to grind (it’s not required), but there are numerous items (optional) that can’t be acquired without repeating content over and over. For this reason, the game appears like a grind for some people, but not for others, based on which of those optional things they go for.

So, here comes the question: “How to eliminate grind?” The reason this discussion even exists is because of RNG loot. Because there is a chance to get things that is far lower than 100%, players have to repeat content repeatedly to get what they want.

Is that the only problem that causes repetition?

Here’s my point: best items in the game must be a reward for player’s skills. Crafting or buying legendary has nothing to do with skill. Receiving ascended rings you want and fractal skins you want in fractals is all about just grinding them – drop is too random. You can’t just beat lvl 50 fractals and be sure that in the end there will be guarantied fractal skin drop, not exact skin, but at least something.

Mini Liadri (and the title) comes to mind as a reward for player skill. The mini is account bound, and everyone that has it shows how skilled they are. The mini has a 100% chance of dropping once you beat Liadri. Can all items be like Liadri and “drop” with 100% chance?

The answer is no, because Liadri isn’t supposed to be repeatable, it’s an extremely hard encounter that tests player skills and doesn’t offer much reward otherwise. There is no reason to repeat Liadri once you get the mini (unless you just want to test yourself again). If the entire game was like this, even with easier content, then there would be no replayability at all. Do A until you finish it, get the unique skin/title/whatever if offers, forget A even exist. You can’t do an MMORPG this way at all.

Extremely hard content (like Liadri) can use this method of acquisition, but not everyday “easy” content. Once players are done with it, they need an extra reward from it. Something else to keep them going there, just a unique skin isn’t enough to entice players forever.

True, that is why I would still allow for some RNG. Being it Liadri, Liadri would drop 100% change but there might also be other drops with 5% change. As you lock it behind content at least the RNG can be lower (so less grind) but some people here then complain my solution would still allow for grind (the RNG). What you say is exactly why I do allow for that.

I would not have a solution to get rid of that completely but I would love to hear it. At least it would reduce it or would turn the big grind in multiple smaller farms.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Waiting too much kills joy. Patience is nice, but like everything, its best in moderation.

This I agree with.

This is the definition of being Entitled.

/Thread, Have fun in your circle J

Diva.4706:

The best way to avoid anything feeling like a grind, is to change what you do often, and don’t constantly look at the end reward as the only reward.

The problem is that people usually do it anyway because it’s the road of least resistance. That one thing makes them the best money.

What I suggest (putting items behind content) in its nature let people do different types of content all with no or a smaller rng (grind).

So it’s possible to design the game in a way it would at least steer the people in a different direction.

It’s fun watching a circular argument that no one will agree on. I don’t personally feel this game is grindy at all.

Stark.1350:

It’s fun watching a circular argument that no one will agree on. I don’t personally feel this game is grindy at all.

Then what about those who do? Shouldn’t something be done for them?

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

Interestingly enough, Karma might be a satisfactory solution so long as you can Account Bind things acquired with it. The reason? Karma is significantly easier to accumulate than Gold, and the potential to transmute Karma -> Gold needs to be throttled very carefully.

I don’t know. I have like 4 million karma sitting in my bank. Unless the karma stuff that comes out is VERY expensive, which will put off new people, people like me will just get everything very quickly.

One of the reasons new currencies are added is to get people out in the world doing stuff. Karma would make me item rich perhaps, but objective poor.

OMGaaaaawd you might actually be able to GASP progress I can imagine how terrible that must be! Actually getting the items you need to complete the progress you’re doing in progression that is simply such a terrible idea I know, actually moving forward with something you put the time into in completing. I know I know who would have thought that actually reaching your goals would be such a boring and tedious thing. I mean who actually achieves their achievements with time spent doing things like oh I dunno playing the game! Totally new concept! LOL /sarcasm

I always find these arguments funny because of that fact like seriously, how terrible would it be to actually be able to progress. You know what I was doing before coming back here and checking these replies?

I progressed in another title I’m playing right now. You know how quickly I did it on one of my alts. three days for one piece a gear. Guess how, I did 2 dailies a day and a series of passive missions with my followers, got the currency turned it in and bam another piece of gear.

Guess what I’m going to do after getting geared? Fish.

These arguments are so funny really they are….exactly when did actually progressing in a game become the most terrible axis of evil event in MMO gaming? Like when did it become the equivalent of <insert the worst imaginable crime possible> to actually have not just equal access to progression as everyone else but to actually complete it in a reasonable amount of time to oh I don’t know enjoy the rest of the game?

smh

Nice sarcasm. My response didn’t deserve it, but whatever…

As for what I said, you’re not actually paying attention to it. At the end of the day all ANY MMORPG is is a list of things to do. At least in PvE that’s true, and I"m a PvE’er. You say you can progress, but if you progress instantly there’s nothing to play for. You’re in the exact same boat you were before that came out. Because of part progress is the journey, it’s not only about getting the shiny for some of us.

It’s like planning a vacation and going on it and coming home with souvenirs, instead of skipping the vacation and just getting the souvenirs.

Which is to say for me, it would be pointless.

There’s a false equivalence going on here and many have stated it and the opposite is true. When you go to any other game out there with a similar system of progression as GW2, that progression is typically reasonable. In titles in which they didn’t promise there wouldn’t be a grind there is no grind in those titles, there’s simply a small minor equally available easily accomplished time gate.

That’s the point. This game has a grind. There is no ifs there’s no buts it’s a grind. STO used to have progression, now it’s gotta grind because of the 3.5 years to get a single progression of specialization down and some of us fear that spec in this game will become just that again, a grind as we’ve already seen in ascended gear.

And once again you’re using a logical fallacy as an argument against those of us who want reasonable, not instant gratification, reasonable gratification for accomplishing these tasks. This gear isn’t legendary gear. It doesn’t deserve such an enormous amount of time, it doesn’t deserve to be locked behind RNG DR and other draconian loot busting methods that have prevented this game from being fun for many of us on unlucky accounts.

It’s simply not right and to keep repeating the logical fallacies as an argument does nothing to improve the game.

Blude.6812:

Azhure.1857:

Lo and behold, the forum goers have done it again…
Fighting for hours, days, even weeks on end.
Running in circles trying to attain that magical and elusive grand prize:

Consensus--This amulet radiates power and hums a low tune. (Special effect: Randomly plays General Lee’s Dixie horn when a player jumps with this item equipped.)

• +42 Power
• +42 Precision
• +42 Toughness
• +42 Vitality
• +42 Condition Damage
• +42 Ferocity
• +42 Healing Power
• +100% to Magic Find

This thread is such a grind.

It’s optional—-you don’t have to read it—so therefore it is not a grind. LOL

You’re the best. * highfive *
Love it. Thank you.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.

Lets take say vision of the mists staff. lets focus specifically on the 250 ecto. I picked this item because 100 mystic coins requirement makes it quite obvious by design this item is designed to take 100 days to earn. Ecto cost 33s so currently thats 82g which means
and average of 82s per day. Quite reasonable.

Now Scenario 1.
lets assume we make ectos untradable and obtainable only via random drop of a dungeon. Now I dont know how many dungeons people run on average per day… Lets say the average is 3 for the sake of argument that means we make a drop rate of 33% so that on average people get 1 drop per day and they can earn 250 ectos in the 100 days as intended. That means 300 dungeon runs. As someone who doesnt really like dungeon running thats for me would be infinitely more grindy than earning 82s doing whatever i feel like per day.

Now Scenario 2.
Lets keep ecto tradable and make them drop via dungeons so that people who want to farm them directly can do that or people who want to do something else are free to do something else.

First thing you’d need to do now is make rares no longer salvagable into ectos why because that still be the biggest source of ectos which would mean that in order to keep the 100 day target the drop rate from dungeons would be so low that it might as well not exist at all. So the only source of ectos is now dungeons. A single dungeon run nets you an average of 3g which means that if things balance out we now have an ecto drop rate of 15% and ectos sell for 3g each. That means for anyone who uses all dungeon rewards to buy ectos and keeps all ecto drops they’ll still need to do 300 dungeon runs on average. people who want to go directly for ectos through drops now need to do 600 dungeon runs and people who just want to avoid dungeons now need to play more then 3x as much as before to keep with the 100 day target. Either way you look at it scenario 2 is worst then scenario 1 in terms of grind.

I am not criticizing your idea, I know you’re passionate about it but every way I look at it I can only seeing making grind much much worst, so please tell me what am I missing ? is there a 3rd scenario I am missing or do you think any of my logic is flawed? what gives?

It’s just my idea and it’s not something I am really passionate about.

Anyway, there are a few ‘problems’ with your scenario. First of all there is the 100 day limit you want to keep in order. I understand why you do that but by doing you limit the possibility too reduce the grind to less than 100 runs.

That is simply a limitation you put on there. Then there are the eco’s. I usually refer to gold as that is the main currency in GW2 but it really is about currency and in a way eco’s are the currency here.

Personally for crafting all the mats (where you need many of) I would not make the mats hard to get. It should be something you should be able to get pretty easy, so go to one spot, farm it for half an hour and be done with it. The hard thing to get would be one ingredient you only need 1 of, or the recipe itself. Depending on what you want to achieve.

Anyway, for your example I will keep myself to the 100 day limit (what is already a compromise to what I suggested, but to make it work in your scope) but I will drop the eco’s.. I mean, the whole idea of what I say is working directly towards your item, not with some currency between it.

What you then could do is making a drop-change of 0,5% (This is not exact math, not going to do the exact math now but it’s good enough for the example) for the weapon itself, that means on average it will drop once every 100 runs. Then to hold on to the 100 day time-gate you let the dungeon only give the reward once a day.

So now the average number of runs would be 100 instead of 300 or 600 in your example, while keeping onto the 100 day time-gate.. on average that is.

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Indeed.

The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.

I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.

Or scenario 3: make Vision of the Mists itself drop from content, say a 0.1% to drop from the Temple of Lyssa event. So players who want Vision of Mists will either grind to get gold to buy it, grind to get the ectos themselves to forge it, or grind the Temple of Lyssa event to directly get it.

I think that’s more like it for a “rewards through content” idea.

This would even be more in line with my suggestion. One thing however. When the average other loot is less, there is also less reason for people to grind / farm the content purely for gold. That means you can higher the drop-rate on the one or two specific items that do drop.

When you do this with content that people grind for its overall good loot (like with the world-bosses) the item would drop to much, meaning the TP would get saturated with it meaning the item would have very little value. So to reduce that problem you would have to make the RNG worse and it might come to a point again not reasonable doable to work towards it and you would have gotten the gold to buy it first. Exactly where we are now.

So this works best for content that has no general reason to be grinded because of its (general) good loot and gold.

People could still just do it for the item to sell it (so to grind for gold) but it would not be something you would do with big groups of people because that would make the value drop and when you grind it for gold that is not what you want. So in that way the gold-grinders are being spread out more and that in its turn prevents the TP from getting saturated with the item.

I read very little of the larger debates in this thread, but it seems like several people are confusing the burned out, frustrated sensations they experience when working really hard for gold, cosmetics, or whatever else they want in the game by repeating dungeons, farming locations, or other events ad nauseam with the symptoms of grind.

They’re absolutely right, in the simplest sense. They are grinding, the frustration they possess does come from a grind. Grind -does- exist in GW2. However, it was not placed there by the developers. The grind the aforementioned players are experiencing is brought upon largely by themselves and general unwillingness to slow down and enjoy the game for what it is in order to achieve faster rewards.

Tired of farming X map? Go do something else. virtually everything in this game throws money at you, from harvesting onions to going deep-sea fishing for certain drops in Southsun. When you’re tired of it, go someplace else. Do an event. Party with someone. Mix it up.

Tired of completing the entire world for that gift? Take it easy. Listen to the npc dialogue. Go someplace you’ve been before and stop pressing for completion when it’s no longer fun. Go play on the underwater organ or something. Your legendary isnt a limited edition drop (And the limited edition things, for that matter, are -easy- to get)., you’ll get it when you get it. Dont blaze through the content for content.

I don’t think its fair to the developers to place the general unhappiness of the grinding community on them. It isn’t largely grind by design, it’s grind by method and the desire for what is as close to instant gratification as possible. Yes, precursors being rng is a travesty, but it’s being worked on.

Play the game. Play the market. Go see what people are doing. If you feel like the game is work, you’re doing it wrong. After all, what are you gonna do once you get twilight? swing it around for a month then quit?

Adding more avenues for grind wont fix it. Farming faster wont fix it. Fixing the matter of grind and general reward pacing requires a little wit and willingness to explore the nooks and crannies of the map for the drops that people -want- on the tp, but are not being provided. Everyone’s at the train, everyone’s at the world bosses; getting the same loot and trying to sell it even though the saturation is making that process hardly lucrative for the time and monotony involved.

I might even dare to say that people feeling that there -is- a grind actually do need to L2P. In the greatest sense of the phrase.

Grind is still grind

… According to every schmuck and half-wit who wants to define literally anything as grind.

Yes. Grind is grind.

CETheLucid.3964:

Grind is still grind

… According to every schmuck and half-wit who wants to define literally anything as grind.

Yes. Grind is grind.

Now imagine if some ppl are claiming themself as ’’Collectors’’ and they thinking that collecting gold from various activities is Grind :PP
Where in every game comes naturaly , but in GW2 is Grind :P
They choosed the life/way of the ’’Collector’’ but suddenly they hate grind :P
And in the end they want more Grind with an alternate form :P

But Grind is Grind :P

Edit : Becuase some ppl behave like little brats ….
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Southsun_Kasmeer
Bikini Mini pet used to be sold in the Gem Store or chance to drop ingame

It seems the community INGAME consist of very clever ppl .
They Farmed that area for that pet and they pocket the extra gold for themselfs .
But because they pocketed the gold , and there wasnt any MAJOR gold sink (SOMTHING TO WASTE THE GOLD OR CONVERT IT TO SOMETHING ELSE !) , the gold Inflitrate the market .
And ’’No’’ …. using the extra gold to buy something from the Action House , is not ‘’Gold Sink’’ (deleting/removing Gold-Money from ingame) but a circular solution and the Gold Inflitration will still grow fast over time .
If you problems collecting gold now …. imagine in the future …..

And in order to avoid sutioations like in others games where an Weapon Echant from an other player cost 300-400 gold (or in the WoW Pandaria x-pack armor skin that cost 1.000.000 gold bit (not buytout) from the Black Market) , they simply avoided the idea of items that can be farmed ingame and you can pocket the money , for now .

You have 10 days freedom :P
I expet some cool ideas till then …

the whole idea from madddoctor going to a party wide loot system is bad because that inevitably more than one person is going to want an item guild groups change partys change etc

and then you have the N before G system again and the possibiility for some bad RNG luck will force a grind on you before you get “lucky”

Lets talk about who cares? And get over it.

eithinan.9841:

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Waiting too much kills joy. Patience is nice, but like everything, its best in moderation.

This I agree with.

This is the definition of being Entitled.

/Thread, Have fun in your circle J

No, it really isnt, waiting for things has nothing to do with entitlement

believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment.

now, if someone thought, they specifically should not have to wait, and everyone else should, that would be entitled.

Point of the statement is, waiting for things is not inherently good.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

CETheLucid.3964:

Grind is still grind

… According to every schmuck and half-wit who wants to define literally anything as grind.

Yes. Grind is grind.

Now imagine if some ppl are claiming themself as ’’Collectors’’ and they thinking that collecting gold from various activities is Grind :PP
Where in every game comes naturaly , but in GW2 is Grind :P
They choosed the life/way of the ’’Collector’’ but suddenly they hate grind :P
And in the end they want more Grind with an alternate form :P

But Grind is Grind :P

Edit : Becuase some ppl behave like little brats ….
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Southsun_Kasmeer
Bikini Mini pet used to be sold in the Gem Store or chance to drop ingame

It seems the community INGAME consist of very clever ppl .
They Farmed that area for that pet and they pocket the extra gold for themselfs .
But because they pocketed the gold , and there wasnt any MAJOR gold sink (SOMTHING TO WASTE THE GOLD OR CONVERT IT TO SOMETHING ELSE !) , the gold Inflitrate the market .
And ’’No’’ …. using the extra gold to buy something from the Action House , is not ‘’Gold Sink’’ (deleting/removing Gold-Money from ingame) but a circular solution and the Gold Inflitration will still grow fast over time .
If you problems collecting gold now …. imagine in the future …..

And in order to avoid sutioations like in others games where an Weapon Echant from an other player cost 300-400 gold (or in the WoW Pandaria x-pack armor skin that cost 1.000.000 gold bit (not buytout) from the Black Market) , they simply avoided the idea of items that can be farmed ingame and you can pocket the money , for now .

You have 10 days freedom :P
I expet some cool ideas till then …

When I am a collector, some other game sends me all over the world, rewarding a specific item for a specific content. Giving more meaning to the item and making the hunt for items more fun.

When you are a collector in GW2 you can’t hunt down most of the items directly. It’s all about gold (or some other currency) and maybe there are then 6 or so methods to get that gold. (dungeons, farm train (of what we have 3? types) and farming world-bosses)

So while you have some choice in how to grind the gold, it still is, want item x? grind gold, next item, grind gold, next item grind gold and so on.

Of course at the same time new items are being added all the time, and let not fool each other. In the current system it’s supposed to be a grind in the hope people will buy there way out of it by buying gems to buy gold or buy the item. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac&t=2m26s

So there is a very big difference from being a collector in GW2 or in such other game.

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

I doubt that they will ever do the ‘quest for items’ collection method. That requires a quest line for every new item they want to put into the game. They seem to be going towards the ‘tokens for playing in the map’ method instead.

There was a long thread about RNG, that has fallen off the front page now that they’ve (dis)improved the forum, called RNG as a concept: Discuss. In that thread, which was started by ANet economist John Smith, the posters in there strongly recommended the token system and ANet has taken those recommendations and put that system into the Silverwastes and Dry Top maps with items sold by merchants that can only be purchased with in map tokens (geodes and badges).

If this was a new game it would be easier to set up from the start OPs suggestion for all the things that could be collected, but at this late date, I suspect it will be tokens instead,

So all i have gained from this thread is the realization that there are more self entitled players in this game than it thought. MMOs need a type of grind to keep those players in the game that want to achieve something that takes time.

Most people need goals or visions of what they want to achieve in the future. Working for money is a grind but people do it to achieve a set thing over time.
Without any grind in a MMO, people would only pvp’/wvw for competition and no one would PvE, which is a huge part of the game. There would be no crown pavilion because it is a grind, no marionette, no wintersday, no dragon bash, no SAB, not evne fractals of dungeons. There is no room for anything that involves more than 1 hour of participation because then it becomes a grind.

Sure the game isn’t optimized for those who want to achieve everything in 1 hour, but without it people wouldn’t play the game. You cant please everyone.

Play another game if the minimal grind that is fully optional offends you. We have a cosmetic grind that NEEDS to be long to keep people in the game.

Panites.6798:

So all i have gained from this thread is the realization that there are more self entitled players in this game than it thought. MMOs need a type of grind to keep those players in the game that want to achieve something that takes time.

Most people need goals or visions of what they want to achieve in the future. Working for money is a grind but people do it to achieve a set thing over time.
Without any grind in a MMO, people would only pvp’/wvw for competition and no one would PvE, which is a huge part of the game. There would be no crown pavilion because it is a grind, no marionette, no wintersday, no dragon bash, no SAB, not evne fractals of dungeons. There is no room for anything that involves more than 1 hour of participation because then it becomes a grind.

Sure the game isn’t optimized for those who want to achieve everything in 1 hour, but without it people wouldn’t play the game. You cant please everyone.

Play another game if the minimal grind that is fully optional offends you. We have a cosmetic grind that NEEDS to be long to keep people in the game.

Nobody here said it goals to be short. It did get mention by people like you saying that is what people asked for.. but in reality nobody asked for that.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I doubt that they will ever do the ‘quest for items’ collection method. That requires a quest line for every new item they want to put into the game. They seem to be going towards the ‘tokens for playing in the map’ method instead.

There was a long thread about RNG, that has fallen off the front page now that they’ve (dis)improved the forum, called RNG as a concept: Discuss. In that thread, which was started by ANet economist John Smith, the posters in there strongly recommended the token system and ANet has taken those recommendations and put that system into the Silverwastes and Dry Top maps with items sold by merchants that can only be purchased with in map tokens (geodes and badges).

If this was a new game it would be easier to set up from the start OPs suggestion for all the things that could be collected, but at this late date, I suspect it will be tokens instead,

Tokens are nice thing to have to the side. Like Dungeon x reward something with 100% change (complete it, and get it) then some RNG but at the same time some token system at least allows you to get some other things that should not be the main goal but more like a nice to have. (much like the dungeon sets).

Make tokens the main way and it’s just as bad as what we already have. Tokens are just a currency and all the currencies in the game help to create this grind.

I also said that, in that thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/11#post4521223.
and
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907

From a developer viewpoint tokens / currencies are easy way to have control over the economy but from a game perspective it is sort of boring.

“If this was a new game it would be easier to set up” Well, it would be a option for HoT.

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

You seriously still believe in the unlucky accounts? I have watched you on the forums spouting this for over 2 years and no one that I play with has a luckier or unluckier account than any one else. Add to the fact that you have claimed multiple times to have quit————I don’t even know what to say anymore. TLDR: I want a tin foil hat in the gem store so I can mail it to this guy.

(My opinion)

Most games have replayability through gear grind doing dungeons or raids. Since ANet doesn’t have that, they have aimed their replayability towards cosmetic grind, The quest line type is “do once then it’s over with.”. You don’t repeat the quest, there is no replayability.

Perhaps I’m wrong but to me the quest line type OP is asking for fits in more with the old linear type games. In those, the game gives you quests and leveling to do, then endgame gear grind content. The people do those and with the next expansion it repeats. It’s more “on rails”.

ANet wants a game where there is as little “one time and done” content as possible. I could see them putting in quests for a few specific items, but not as a major feature of the game because, truthfully, it’s a lot of work and once it’s done it’s abandoned. The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again.

So this is my opinion as to why they aren’t going to put in quest type content.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

(My opinion)

Most games have replayability through gear grind doing dungeons or raids. Since ANet doesn’t have that, they have aimed their replayability towards cosmetic grind, The quest line type is “do once then it’s over with.”. You don’t repeat the quest, there is no replayability.

Perhaps I’m wrong but to me the quest line type OP is asking for fits in more with the old linear type games. In those, the game gives you quests and leveling to do, then endgame gear grind content. The people do those and with the next expansion it repeats. It’s more “on rails”.

ANet wants a game where there is as little “one time and done” content as possible. I could see them putting in quests for a few specific items, but not as a major feature of the game because, truthfully, it’s a lot of work and once it’s done it’s abandoned. The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again.

So this is my opinion as to why they aren’t going to put in quest type content.

First of all I am not talking about endgame gear grind and I did also not suggest that anywhere.

For most people events are a one time thing as well so not much changes there. In fact, the fact that people see events repeating also makes it feel less of you making a change.

Traditional quest mixed with events would be a nice thing as it allows for getting a better connection with the world (you learn more about NPC’s and there place in the world) it gives more a feeling of making a difference (you helped that npc) and more on topic it’s a good way to rewards items.

Sure it’s something you can only do once but isn’t that also why is makes it less of a grind (what we try to achieve in this topic).

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

bloodletting wolf.2837:

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

You seriously still believe in the unlucky accounts? I have watched you on the forums spouting this for over 2 years and no one that I play with has a luckier or unluckier account than any one else. Add to the fact that you have claimed multiple times to have quit————I don’t even know what to say anymore. TLDR: I want a tin foil hat in the gem store so I can mail it to this guy.

I am still trying to figure out what he meant by this.

tigirius.9014:

People keep forgetting that not everyone has the same access to loot in this game.

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

FTFY.

but if this is referring to me, I said what I have had to say. Nothing has been posted that contradicts what I have said that has any basis in reality, soooo, I am not going to repeat my self. I will simply participate in this whacked out discussion giving it the respect it deserves.

Devata.6589:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

(My opinion)

Most games have replayability through gear grind doing dungeons or raids. Since ANet doesn’t have that, they have aimed their replayability towards cosmetic grind, The quest line type is “do once then it’s over with.”. You don’t repeat the quest, there is no replayability.

Perhaps I’m wrong but to me the quest line type OP is asking for fits in more with the old linear type games. In those, the game gives you quests and leveling to do, then endgame gear grind content. The people do those and with the next expansion it repeats. It’s more “on rails”.

ANet wants a game where there is as little “one time and done” content as possible. I could see them putting in quests for a few specific items, but not as a major feature of the game because, truthfully, it’s a lot of work and once it’s done it’s abandoned. The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again.

So this is my opinion as to why they aren’t going to put in quest type content.

First of all I am not talking about endgame gear grind and I did also not suggest that anywhere.

For most people events are a one thing as well so not much changes there. In fact, the fact that people see events repeating also makes it feel less of you making a change.

Traditional quest mixed with events would be a nice thing as it allows for getting a better connection with the world (you learn more about NPC’s and there place in the world) it gives more a feeling of making a difference (you helped that npc) and more on topic it’s a good way to rewards items.

Sure it’s something you can only do once but isn’t that also why is makes it less of a grind (what we try to achieve in this topic).

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

If you read what I was talking about, it wasn’t about endgame gear grind but where games put grind and why.

I was trying to explain by comparison. I’ll try again.

Games have to have grind to keep people playing. The games with endgame gear grind put it there, with the quests you talk about as filler content. Guild Wars 2 has endgame cosmetic grind to keep people playing long term. Quests for cosmetic items as a one time and done don’t fit. It would be like having WoW put its endgame gear grind behind a one and done quest line system instead of doing repeated dungeons and raids.

That’s why ANet is putting in the token system with the merchants selling cosmetic items with map tokens. Lots of replayability. It’s ANet’s version of grinding dungeons for gear. And it’s why they won’t put items in a one and done quest line.

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest thread for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

What about trying to push people who just make that circular grind argument away to try to discuss what the heck to do about the grind?

Oh, wait, because I enjoy the game mostly as-is, I must be one of the threats. Nevermind.

So none of the suggestions have actually “fixed” grinding for the people that like to play this game a lot. If there was no grind involved, I litterally would have everything already, and then what?

Like it or not, no grind would mean all rewards would be extremely easily optainable which means a lot less replay value of the current content.

tigirius.9014:

It’s simply not right and to keep repeating the logical fallacies as an argument does nothing to improve the game.

This entire post is a logical fallacy as based on the last line of it. First of all it doesn’t address what I said at all. If you don’t understand my post, that’s cool, but don’t try to make it say something it doesn’t.

More important you’re claiming I’m repeating logical fallacies that “do nothing to improve the game”. That’s a logical fallacy because you’re assuming the other suggestions here would improve the game.

I think some people are more out of touch with the genre than others. They assume what would work for them would work for most people, and that’s one assumption I’m not making. Frankly I think most of the assumptions I’ve seen you make are out of touch, even if I probably personally wouldn’t have problems with the game that you or even Devata deliver.

The problem is, I’m not a typical MMO player and unfortunately, there are a whole lot of people that come to games TO grind. I see this all the time in my guild and no matter how much I talk about it, I can’t seem to break the habit.

People will come into a game and choose what they grind for. That’s what they’re looking for…something new to grind for. Even though I’d prefer no grind at all, I’ll admit that having optional grind is probably not bad for the game..and it’s all optional because content isn’t locked out because of it. That’s not a logical fallacy. That’s a definition as I define things. If you define them differently read my early post. We can’t even talk about this because we can’t agree on a definition.

But the real issue is the number of players who stop playing when they have nothing to grind for. It’s anecdotal but I’ve seen it with my own eyes, a lot more than once. If people don’t have something to "work towards " (read grind for) they simply lose interest.

Why has this happened to this genre? I have some ideas, but no one really cares what they are. lol

Dear Devata.

Please stop complaining about grind when there is none. You can get anything you would ever want in the game by doing whatever you feel like doing at that particular moment. It might take longer than the “optimal” method but you WILL get there eventually.

The one thing you have to change is your attitude. Don’t look at XY shiny you want to get and don’t check how much gold you still need to get it. Just play the game for fun, don’t do stuff you don’t remotely enjoy. One day you’ll notice you can afford that shiny and you will enjoy having it even more because you did not grind for it.

Devata.6589:

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

Sorry but token systems don’t work and it’s not because they are not fun or grindy or boring. The tokens in this game have one major flaw, they have no cap.

So when players get all they want with tokens from a specific type of content, if that content also awards gold or materials, they will continue running it and accumulate a vast amount of tokens (that they have no use for).

Then, once the token merchants are “updated” Anet will have to make the prices of new items rather high, to account for older players, but the high prices will be bad for newer players.

The best token in the game are Guild Merits because they cap at 250. So guilds cannot accumulate thousand upon thousand of merits to “get ready” for Guild Halls. Now, if Anet wants to add specific Guild Hall features behind merits, they can do it easily and have good requirements, instead of some insane requirements.

We saw what happened with the new skills they introduced. The original system of skills costing a couple of skill points wasn’t going to work now that players had loads of skill points on their characters, so they increased the cost of acquiring new skills a LOT -making it harder for newer players to get those skills.

Other players asked to make karma more important, but karma has the exact same problem with tokens. Players get karma by doing anything, and they don’t need to spend it, therefore they can get millions of karma, creating a huge difference between old and new players and forcing the developers (if they add anything with karma) to have some insane prices.

Think about it, if all currencies in the game, Badges of Honor, Karma, Dungeon Tokens, LS tokens etc had an upper cap, we wouldn’t NEED new currencies anymore. Simply add new things on the merchant for a set amount of tokens and you are done, due to the cap, no player would be able to get everything by the time it’s released. So new content could award old currencies without any problem.

Heck they could even add an upper cap for gold too, so after some amount of gold, players would be “forced” to invest in some items, like how GW1 worked. Although that’s much harder to do due to the TP.

tl;dr make all currencies work like guild merits (give them an upper cap), then the game won’t need any new currencies at all

Back in my day its wasnt grind it was immersive and it was called Hunting when you wanted something bad enough you would go hunt the creatures for it and that is how MMO’s have always been played if you didnt have said grind the game would just be one big theme park and linear as all hell. I miss the old eq1 days of kicking back and hunting or camping certain areas though in todays age people would call it grind back them we called it socializing and hanging out hunting critters.

eithinan.9841:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

You seriously still believe in the unlucky accounts? I have watched you on the forums spouting this for over 2 years and no one that I play with has a luckier or unluckier account than any one else. Add to the fact that you have claimed multiple times to have quit————I don’t even know what to say anymore. TLDR: I want a tin foil hat in the gem store so I can mail it to this guy.

I am still trying to figure out what he meant by this.

tigirius.9014:

People keep forgetting that not everyone has the same access to loot in this game.

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

FTFY.

but if this is referring to me, I said what I have had to say. Nothing has been posted that contradicts what I have said that has any basis in reality, soooo, I am not going to repeat my self. I will simply participate in this whacked out discussion giving it the respect it deserves.

It was not referring to you, it was also not referring to one person in particular but the type of comments that really have no goal of participating other than trolling in 1 to max 3 lines. And I honestly believe they think believe that there contribution is helping the game by ‘attack’ those who have a complain. Obviously it doesn’t.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Devata.6589:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

(My opinion)

Most games have replayability through gear grind doing dungeons or raids. Since ANet doesn’t have that, they have aimed their replayability towards cosmetic grind, The quest line type is “do once then it’s over with.”. You don’t repeat the quest, there is no replayability.

Perhaps I’m wrong but to me the quest line type OP is asking for fits in more with the old linear type games. In those, the game gives you quests and leveling to do, then endgame gear grind content. The people do those and with the next expansion it repeats. It’s more “on rails”.

ANet wants a game where there is as little “one time and done” content as possible. I could see them putting in quests for a few specific items, but not as a major feature of the game because, truthfully, it’s a lot of work and once it’s done it’s abandoned. The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again.

So this is my opinion as to why they aren’t going to put in quest type content.

First of all I am not talking about endgame gear grind and I did also not suggest that anywhere.

For most people events are a one thing as well so not much changes there. In fact, the fact that people see events repeating also makes it feel less of you making a change.

Traditional quest mixed with events would be a nice thing as it allows for getting a better connection with the world (you learn more about NPC’s and there place in the world) it gives more a feeling of making a difference (you helped that npc) and more on topic it’s a good way to rewards items.

Sure it’s something you can only do once but isn’t that also why is makes it less of a grind (what we try to achieve in this topic).

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

If you read what I was talking about, it wasn’t about endgame gear grind but where games put grind and why.

I was trying to explain by comparison. I’ll try again.

Games have to have grind to keep people playing. The games with endgame gear grind put it there, with the quests you talk about as filler content. Guild Wars 2 has endgame cosmetic grind to keep people playing long term. Quests for cosmetic items as a one time and done don’t fit. It would be like having WoW put its endgame gear grind behind a one and done quest line system instead of doing repeated dungeons and raids.

That’s why ANet is putting in the token system with the merchants selling cosmetic items with map tokens. Lots of replayability. It’s ANet’s version of grinding dungeons for gear. And it’s why they won’t put items in a one and done quest line.

“It would be like having WoW put its endgame gear grind behind a one and done quest line system instead of doing repeated dungeons and raids.”
Let’s not forget, quests is only one part of what I suggested and this example you give is interesting because endgame for me in WoW was not the ‘gear grind’. It was the hunt for those cosmetics (and hunt for hunter-pets and fun crafts like engineering). Those cosmetics are in many cases locked behind those quest and quest-chains. Also in dungeons, but all of them, not just the highest level raids.

You are wrong to think that gear grind is ‘the’ endgame for WoW, it’s the endgame in WoW for just a group of WoW players, while cosmetics hunt is the end-game for another group and RPing is it for yet another group and PvP is the endgame for another group and so on.

So the end-game you seem to suggest is not possible is exactly the end-game for me in many MMO’s including WoW. But funny enough, in this game that is all about cosmetics, it’s not.

Devata.6589:

It’s just my idea and it’s not something I am really passionate about.

Anyway, there are a few ‘problems’ with your scenario. First of all there is the 100 day limit you want to keep in order. I understand why you do that but by doing you limit the possibility too reduce the grind to less than 100 runs.

That is simply a limitation you put on there. Then there are the eco’s. I usually refer to gold as that is the main currency in GW2 but it really is about currency and in a way eco’s are the currency here.

Personally for crafting all the mats (where you need many of) I would not make the mats hard to get. It should be something you should be able to get pretty easy, so go to one spot, farm it for half an hour and be done with it. The hard thing to get would be one ingredient you only need 1 of, or the recipe itself. Depending on what you want to achieve.

Anyway, for your example I will keep myself to the 100 day limit (what is already a compromise to what I suggested, but to make it work in your scope) but I will drop the eco’s.. I mean, the whole idea of what I say is working directly towards your item, not with some currency between it.

What you then could do is making a drop-change of 0,5% (This is not exact math, not going to do the exact math now but it’s good enough for the example) for the weapon itself, that means on average it will drop once every 100 runs. Then to hold on to the 100 day time-gate you let the dungeon only give the reward once a day.

So now the average number of runs would be 100 instead of 300 or 600 in your example, while keeping onto the 100 day time-gate.. on average that is.

I know that the 100 day limit makes it impossible to reduce the 100 run limit but as you know its necessary. Its the one thing that is probably immutable in the design and any solution / suggestion we come up with will need to respect that if we are to have any chance for it to be adopted by the devs. Thats why I stress on it.

Well yeah strictly speaking ecto is a currenct, if you change to that to a single rare drop, that rare drop would be currency itself but wouldnt it feel a ton more grindy if you’re trying to get something that will drop once in an average of 100 days then it is trying to get something that drops an average of 3 per day? technically its exactly the same but the fact you’re doing a little progress each and every day tricks us into thinking its less grindy.

I can see a number of issues with your final plan.

1. 100 runs instead of 600 is definitely a lot better but 100 runs of doing something you dont enjoy is still much worst then doing something else you enjoy and will still feel more grindy (being you dont enjoy it)

2. time gating. based on past experience people hate being forced to limit their effort to just 30 minutes a day out of their game session working towards the goal they want.

3. for an average of 100 runs you will get nothing of value towards your goal, there will be no small gratification to offset that grindy feel which i do believe will make the feeling worst

4. some people just like to play solo and hate grouping and hate dungeons, are they cut out from all rewards that require this particular drop? because while they may be open to do a dungeon once or twice, 100 times seems a bit far fetched for these kind of players

now though I am pointing out the negative, dont get me wrong I also see advantages on what you propose.

1. Incentives people to run more dungeons
2. force people to not burn out (if you dont enjoy it at least you only have to do it for 30 mins a day max)
3. potentially help pugs find more teams to play with due to larger dungeon demand
4. make the reward feel more meaningful since you had to do specific work rather then just “goof” around for 100 days.

Do you agree with the adv / disadv i came up with and if so do you think the adv are bigger then the disadv?

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

It’s just my idea and it’s not something I am really passionate about.

Anyway, there are a few ‘problems’ with your scenario. First of all there is the 100 day limit you want to keep in order. I understand why you do that but by doing you limit the possibility too reduce the grind to less than 100 runs.

That is simply a limitation you put on there. Then there are the eco’s. I usually refer to gold as that is the main currency in GW2 but it really is about currency and in a way eco’s are the currency here.

Personally for crafting all the mats (where you need many of) I would not make the mats hard to get. It should be something you should be able to get pretty easy, so go to one spot, farm it for half an hour and be done with it. The hard thing to get would be one ingredient you only need 1 of, or the recipe itself. Depending on what you want to achieve.

Anyway, for your example I will keep myself to the 100 day limit (what is already a compromise to what I suggested, but to make it work in your scope) but I will drop the eco’s.. I mean, the whole idea of what I say is working directly towards your item, not with some currency between it.

What you then could do is making a drop-change of 0,5% (This is not exact math, not going to do the exact math now but it’s good enough for the example) for the weapon itself, that means on average it will drop once every 100 runs. Then to hold on to the 100 day time-gate you let the dungeon only give the reward once a day.

So now the average number of runs would be 100 instead of 300 or 600 in your example, while keeping onto the 100 day time-gate.. on average that is.

I know that the 100 day limit makes it impossible to reduce the 100 run limit but as you know its necessary. Its the one thing that is probably immutable in the design and any solution / suggestion we come up with will need to respect that if we are to have any chance for it to be adopted by the devs. Thats why I stress on it.

Well yeah strictly speaking ecto is a currenct, if you change to that to a single rare drop, that rare drop would be currency itself but wouldnt it feel a ton more grindy if you’re trying to get something that will drop once in an average of 100 days then it is trying to get something that drops an average of 3 per day? technically its exactly the same but the fact you’re doing a little progress each and every day tricks us into thinking its less grindy.

I can see a number of issues with your final plan.

1. 100 runs instead of 600 is definitely a lot better but 100 runs of doing something you dont enjoy is still much worst then doing something else you enjoy and will still feel more grindy (being you dont enjoy it)

2. time gating. based on past experience people hate being forced to limit their effort to just 30 minutes a day out of their game session working towards the goal they want.

3. for an average of 100 runs you will get nothing of value towards your goal, there will be no small gratification to offset that grindy feel which i do believe will make the feeling worst

4. some people just like to play solo and hate grouping and hate dungeons, are they cut out from all rewards that require this particular drop? because while they may be open to do a dungeon once or twice, 100 times seems a bit far fetched for these kind of players

now though I am pointing out the negative, dont get me wrong I also see advantages on what you propose.

1. Incentives people to run more dungeons
2. force people to not burn out (if you dont enjoy it at least you only have to do it for 30 mins a day max)
3. potentially help pugs find more teams to play with due to larger dungeon demand
4. make the reward feel more meaningful since you had to do specific work rather then just “goof” around for 100 days.

Do you agree with the adv / disadv i came up with and if so do you think the adv are bigger then the disadv?

artificial time gates are stupid.
Its a bad mechanic. Especially ones like 100 day things. Keep people logging in by making a good game, not by limiting progress.

It doesnt really matter if someone does something that takes 24 hours, in 24 hours, a week or a month.
the same time was invested.

the type of mechanical, simulation inspired changes you are talking about, are part of why the game feels grindy.
the average person/group taking a week to master a fight is not the same as making someone wait a week to do something.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest thread for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

What about trying to push people who just make that circular grind argument away to try to discuss what the heck to do about the grind?

Oh, wait, because I enjoy the game mostly as-is, I must be one of the threats. Nevermind.

No you aren’t. While we may disagree on points you give arguments explain what you think and why. that is perfectly fine.

cranos.5913:

So none of the suggestions have actually “fixed” grinding for the people that like to play this game a lot. If there was no grind involved, I litterally would have everything already, and then what?

Like it or not, no grind would mean all rewards would be extremely easily optainable which means a lot less replay value of the current content.

The suggestion I made does not hurt the people who like the current grind, they can still do that.

serenke.4806:

Dear Devata.

Please stop complaining about grind when there is none. You can get anything you would ever want in the game by doing whatever you feel like doing at that particular moment. It might take longer than the “optimal” method but you WILL get there eventually.

The one thing you have to change is your attitude. Don’t look at XY shiny you want to get and don’t check how much gold you still need to get it. Just play the game for fun, don’t do stuff you don’t remotely enjoy. One day you’ll notice you can afford that shiny and you will enjoy having it even more because you did not grind for it.

“Please stop complaining about grind when there is none.” Sure when there is no more grind I will not complain anymore.

“You can get anything you would ever want in the game by doing whatever you feel like doing at that particular moment.” All nice on paper but in practice it works differently and that is why so many people consider this game to be so grindy. What is the real problem.

Besides, what I feel like doing is hunting down items directly but for most items that’s not possible.

“It might take longer than the “optimal” method but you WILL get there eventually." This would only be true if you look at the items individually. You want item x, just wait and you get the gold, you want item y, just wait and you get it, you want z, just wait and you get it. Sure.. But you want x, y and z (that are not all items!) and of all the items added in a month there is one you want, you will only get further behind. (what is obviously mend to be the case from a financial perspective, that is what is supposed to get people to spend money.. But I am looking at it form a game perspective)

Not that this (not being able to get all items you like, or running what behind) itself is the biggest problem, but it does show where this theoretic answer fails in reality.

“The one thing you have to change is your attitude. " It’s not an attitude, liking to hunt down items is a game-play. You know ‘play the way you want’. Hunting down items is a huge part of the end-game for a large group of players in many mmo’s. Including in GW2 but here that is mainly grinding gold.
And when I say ‘including GW2’ I mean especially for GW2 as GW2 is built so much around cosmetics so it would attract people who like this sort of stuff. (again, from a financial point not strange that they then monetize that part (likely the biggest group), but from a game perspective the result is not so good). It would be an educated guess to expect many of those people eventually left (grinding is not what they want, and buying what they want also gets old), with HoT coming up many of them will return so it’s now important to manage to hold them this time. Scare them away again and they won’t be back for expansion 2.

“. Just play the game for fun, don’t do stuff you don’t remotely enjoy.” I don’t. That does not mean I do not see the grind and a huge part of the end-game (hunting down item) is a grind. It simply results in playing less and less. Waiting and hoping Guild-halls will create new interesting and fun stuff to do with the guild and hoping the changes to WvW will bring what WvW needs at this time.

“One day you’ll notice you can afford that shiny and you will enjoy having it even more because you did not grind for it.” I would enjoy it most if I hunted it down because that gives the item more value for a game perspective. You completed x content to get that item. Much like many people point to Liadri as the mini they are most proud of.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

Sorry but token systems don’t work and it’s not because they are not fun or grindy or boring. The tokens in this game have one major flaw, they have no cap.

So when players get all they want with tokens from a specific type of content, if that content also awards gold or materials, they will continue running it and accumulate a vast amount of tokens (that they have no use for).

Then, once the token merchants are “updated” Anet will have to make the prices of new items rather high, to account for older players, but the high prices will be bad for newer players.

The best token in the game are Guild Merits because they cap at 250. So guilds cannot accumulate thousand upon thousand of merits to “get ready” for Guild Halls. Now, if Anet wants to add specific Guild Hall features behind merits, they can do it easily and have good requirements, instead of some insane requirements.

We saw what happened with the new skills they introduced. The original system of skills costing a couple of skill points wasn’t going to work now that players had loads of skill points on their characters, so they increased the cost of acquiring new skills a LOT -making it harder for newer players to get those skills.

Other players asked to make karma more important, but karma has the exact same problem with tokens. Players get karma by doing anything, and they don’t need to spend it, therefore they can get millions of karma, creating a huge difference between old and new players and forcing the developers (if they add anything with karma) to have some insane prices.

Think about it, if all currencies in the game, Badges of Honor, Karma, Dungeon Tokens, LS tokens etc had an upper cap, we wouldn’t NEED new currencies anymore. Simply add new things on the merchant for a set amount of tokens and you are done, due to the cap, no player would be able to get everything by the time it’s released. So new content could award old currencies without any problem.

Heck they could even add an upper cap for gold too, so after some amount of gold, players would be “forced” to invest in some items, like how GW1 worked. Although that’s much harder to do due to the TP.

tl;dr make all currencies work like guild merits (give them an upper cap), then the game won’t need any new currencies at all

That was a quote and I also don’t think tokens are very good. They could be a side thing but that should be it.

I don’t agree we should cap all currencies but we sure could do with way less currencies and less of it (reward less in currency and more in direct loot people are after, but that’s really in short my suggestion)

Devata.6589:

When I am a collector, some other game sends me all over the world, rewarding a specific item for a specific content. Giving more meaning to the item and making the hunt for items more fun.

When you are a collector in GW2 you can’t hunt down most of the items directly. It’s all about gold (or some other currency) and maybe there are then 6 or so methods to get that gold. (dungeons, farm train (of what we have 3? types) and farming world-bosses)

So while you have some choice in how to grind the gold, it still is, want item x? grind gold, next item, grind gold, next item grind gold and so on.

Of course at the same time new items are being added all the time, and let not fool each other. In the current system it’s supposed to be a grind in the hope people will buy there way out of it by buying gems to buy gold or buy the item. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac&t=2m26s

So there is a very big difference from being a collector in GW2 or in such other game.

Only in the short term, every single collection item is an item that drops and every single one of them drops from multiple places so yeah you’d burn out if you try going farming every item in the exotic collection. But if you’re playing the game you’ll be killing champions and earning champion bags and what not. In turn that will give you one of the collection items now and again. Granted personally I had 4 drop on me. Thats like 4 in a year.. out of 34 so baring duplicates it will take 8 years to finish it all which is crazy long no doubt. 1 is already in… had this been something added at launch I’d already be nearly 1/2 way in without even having to put any effort into it.

As for other games, which games are you talking about? cause the ones that do collections that I am aware of (rift, eq2, neverwinter, WoW) arent really that much different. Both in rift and Eq2 what is called shines are heavily dependent on rng. they’re not much different then what gw2 does. you either spend a really long time hunting them down or much easier you buy them. Most people do a bit of both.

Neverwinter is even worst. some collections require massive grinds while others require buying directly for real money.

Wow has a mix, but it too has some collections that can only be completed by spending real money (and thats with a sub no less) while others require massive grinds or you buy what you need off the AH which we know what most people do when faced with this choice

Gw2 seem pretty in line with what others too, make no mistake, not saying gw2 is better, its not. while strictly speaking its entirely possible to complete every collection without spending a single cent its not really realistic. I am not sure anyone can really make enough gold to finish all those black lion weapon sets in an entire life time. but likewise I dont think its possible to complete every collection in the other mmos either not even if you have access to unlimited amount of in game money. Dont think collections are things you’re meant to ever fully complete.

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

hold your horses now… what do you mean no real arguments?

Goldrock.9076:

Back in my day its wasnt grind it was immersive and it was called Hunting when you wanted something bad enough you would go hunt the creatures for it and that is how MMO’s have always been played if you didnt have said grind the game would just be one big theme park and linear as all hell. I miss the old eq1 days of kicking back and hunting or camping certain areas though in todays age people would call it grind back them we called it socializing and hanging out hunting critters.

Well as far as I know it was always hunting down an item (that means going directly for an item and is what I talk about). That could in some cases mean farming a dungeon or a mob.

Or farm mats (usually this was easy and fast done.. going to farm some mats, brb).

Or grinding for gold. This was doing specific things that rewarded gold you then used to buy what you needed.

Hunting critters? I did never hear somebody say something like that.

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest thread for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

What about trying to push people who just make that circular grind argument away to try to discuss what the heck to do about the grind?

Oh, wait, because I enjoy the game mostly as-is, I must be one of the threats. Nevermind.

No you aren’t. While we may disagree on points you give arguments explain what you think and why. that is perfectly fine.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/2#post4729972
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/2#post4730145
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/3#post4730757
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/3#post4731500
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/9#post4743313

There you go. I’ve already made my case in the prior thread before it went into the double digits.

If you want to simulate a 30+ page merry-go-round of circular argument, you can reread it every new page that this one gets to your hearts content.

If you say anything that isn’t more or less a repeat of what you already had to say back then, I’ll consider a more meaningful reply. Maybe.

I’ll dip my little toe into the argument now and then, and that’s my choice to make. But when it comes to forum grinding, I’m a filthy casual. Just too grindy for my blood.

Sorry.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.

And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).

Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.

Generally, I don’t find GW2 grindy, but that changes when I think about my crafters and their demand for material. Recently, I decided to level my weaponsmith from 300 to 400. After several crafted pieces, I found myself in a situation without any necessary materials and that has put me into a situation where I do have to grind to get them. Of course, there is always trade post, but prices there prevent me from buying as many materials as I would need, and that again, points me in a direction of a grind.
I have recently returned to GW2 and don’t know if that has been changed, but at the start, you were “punished” for excessive grinding of PVE content, by not getting anything after a short amount of time spent in the same area.
That, and the necessity to grind in order to get needed materials, does not go along well.