Guild Wars 2

Devata.6589:

Having a hard time translating this.

Yeah, we know.

rhapsody.3615:

That’s only a piece of what I said. If you read the rest of my post, you would see that getting top tier gear isn’t the same. Sorry, I’m not letting you make me look like an idiot. In GW2, yes, you play a dungeon a few times to acquire a piece of equipment. That piece of equipment (speaking in exotics, not ascended) has all max stats the moment it is obtained, minus your choice of rune.

So not only it does not have maxed stats (it’s not ascended), but also it requires an upgrade (the runes) in order to become as powerful as it can be.

Just like the game you mentioned. It’s the same (grindy) thing.

Test.8734:

rhapsody.3615:

That’s only a piece of what I said. If you read the rest of my post, you would see that getting top tier gear isn’t the same. Sorry, I’m not letting you make me look like an idiot. In GW2, yes, you play a dungeon a few times to acquire a piece of equipment. That piece of equipment (speaking in exotics, not ascended) has all max stats the moment it is obtained, minus your choice of rune.

So not only it does not have maxed stats (it’s not ascended), but also it requires an upgrade (the runes) in order to become as powerful as it can be.

Just like the game you mentioned. It’s the same (grindy) thing.

Hey bud maybe you should test dear ester seem to be your kind of game mate

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Having a hard time translating this.

Yeah, we know.

To proper English I left that part out initially because I did not want to come over rude towards you. Anyway, nice that of the comment this is all you had something to say about.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?

“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”

I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.

Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

The other definitions might or might not apply.

But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.

If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.

Even if it was true that was ‘the most common usages’ it does not mean the other usages suddenly do not count as grind anymore. So if people talk about grind they all count equally (that includes Anet talking about grind!). And that paragraph where you quoted from even ends with the sentence [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] so the article itself refers to grind for getting additional items. Exactly what is going on here.

Besides you did not make a statement and defined what you meant. You simply quoted a definition (well part of it) from wiki seemingly to proof that, that was the definition of grind. It was not like you said.. I do not find it grindy because for me grindy means this and it does not fit into this. If you did then we might be able to agree it did not fit into your definition what is btw completely irrelevant for the people who consider it grindy.

It seems like everybody here agrees there is grind in GW2 only some want to ignore it because that grind does not count according to them. And I can understand that that grind does not effect there personal game-play but that does not mean it does not count for other people.

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

The only grind I have really found is:
Crafting to 500 – you have to make a bunch of items you don’t want/need so you end up salvaging or selling them and it’s BORING.

Ascended armor – Maybe because the effort for such a tiny gain seems not worth it (I still make it anyway)

WXP – Mostly the fact that I don’t Ktrain

Everything else for me is strictly optional or I happen to get the stuff through my normal play. Even for ascended weapons it’s not much effort to crap one out every week or so.

Just my opinion.

Devata.6589:

Davey.7029:

If you call Guild Wars 2 grindy, then you really haven’t played any other MMORPG.

That is an assumption I know for a fact is wrong as I do consider GW2 grindy and did play multiple other mmo’s.

How? Plenty of MMO’s require you to stay in the same zone and grind for days until you can move to the next one, and then grind even more.

In many MMO’s the max level isn’t even achievable to the average player, and in the ones where it is possible to reach the cap, you grind for gear for about 6 months until the next content update is released and your gear is then becomes obsolete.

And let’s not talk about MMO’s where you actually have to reach the level cap until you can participate in any form of PvP. In Guild Wars 2 you can start doing PvP right from the start.

That’s one of the reasons of why people keep coming back to this game, because other MMO’s feel so old and outdated.

Vayne.8563:

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Indeed. By never using the words “grind” and “level” close to each other, ArenaNet has made it clear that they have never considered “grind” to mean only level grinding. In fact, their statements about not wanting people to grind show how they see grind as something far more encompassing.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Indeed. By never using the words “grind” and “level” close to each other, ArenaNet has made it clear that they have never considered “grind” to mean only level grinding. In fact, their statements about not wanting people to grind show how they see grind as something far more encompassing.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue

English much? By using them close together they imply that that is what I’m talking about.

The only thing I feel personally alienated by that seems to be to be a ridiculous grind is traits now that they’ve gone full idiot with trait locking.

Everything else is pretty optional. Traits are not optional any more than wearing gear is optional.

i think they meant leveling grind or endless gear threadmill when new max level are introduced.

vanity grind is another matter, it’s by choice.

Devata.6589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Having a hard time translating this.

Yeah, we know.

To proper English I left that part out initially because I did not want to come over rude towards you. Anyway, nice that of the comment this is all you had something to say about.

Not much left to say, there is no honest discussion to be had. I’ve attempted to clarify this to you at least three times. And that’s just me.

Other people are saying the same thing. You double down and repeat your mantra of all things are grind and therefore GW2 is grind.

By saying everything is optional and therefore qualifies as a grind to support your argument, it follows that everything is considered a grind.

You said this. Not me.

Following this logic, I suppose you’re correct in the same way I’m related to the sun. We’re the exact same thing, the sun and I. We’re both made out of atoms after all.

Screw the relevant details, right?

You’re using relativism logic and stretching yourself like spaghetti to make an argument for grind when there isn’t any in any honest sense compared to other games in the same genre. GW2 stands apart in this regard.

I can’t help you understand this concept if you’re not getting me after three posts. Can’t say I didn’t try. Maybe it’s the language barrier?

Gene Archer.8560:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

As long as raids don’t have agony we will be fine.

You forget the stat boost. 5% is 5%. The moment raids are geared to ascended, that means that exotic gear is 5% less efficient.

Good thing we have a long way to go then because current raids aren’t even geared to exotics. When people solo content meant for teams … you know the bar in the game is set pretty low.

Lots of people associating need with want in this thread. The guy that separated farming from grinding got it right on the money. Really, the problem is that grinding is just a subjective term; the second someone perceives they have to get something by doing the same thing TOO many times, it’s a grind to them.

I have no doubt that Anet top brass know their industry and its history so their statement about the lack of grind in GW2 is quite genuine. I have noticed that as MMO’s evolve, they do get less grindy so when I see people complain … I just chuckle a bit. For example, just for a jaunt down memory lane … anyone here ever level to 220/70/30 in Anarchy Online? I doubt any that have will QQ about the ‘grind’ in GW2.

Obtena.7952:

Good thing we have a long way to go then because current raids aren’t even geared to exotics. When people solo content meant for teams … you know the bar in the game is set pretty low.

Care to tell me who has been soloing Tea Kettle and Worms, then?

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams, not a single team. The content you mentioned isn’t balanced around gear, it’s balanced around co-operation and player volume; those are RAID content, not instanced (re. dungeon/fractals) content.

Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

Obtena.7952:

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams. Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

You said people were soloing content meant for teams. I asked you who was soloing the raids. You said noone, cause those are meant for teams.

Sooo…which is it, then? Either people are soloing team content or they aren’t.

Funny, though, casue this game looks like every other MMO on the market to me in terms of grind and RNG, especially with ascended gear.

And I’m not a noob, so looks like you’re wrong.

I guess you’re experience is simply too limited to have sufficient perspective to speak on the topic then. You are aware that MMO’s have been around since mid 90’s? If you simply compare GW2 to what exists right now, then you don’t have a very relevant baseline. Without that history, then it’s clear why people don’t understand Anet’s statement and fluff it off.

Play a game where it takes 1000’s of hours to max out a character, then come back here and realize how very ridiculous the complaints are. Hell, people can BUY most of the stuff in this game with RL money. How much more carebear do you want it?

Obtena.7952:

I guess you’re experience is simply too limited to have sufficient perspective to speak on the topic then. You are aware that MMO’s have been around since mid 90’s?

Perfectly aware. I’ve played Korean grinders with less grind and RNG than this game. I have all the perspective I need to speak on this subject, not that you get to decide who gets to speak on it to begin with.

Obtena.7952:

If you simply compare GW2 to what exists right now, then you don’t have a very relevant baseline.

So how far back does one have to go for a relevant baseline? And who decides said baseline?

You?

No, I don’t think so.

I think the point people often miss discussing on this topic is there is a difference between grinding and challenging content. There are few items in the game I’ve earned that actually felt like rewards, one of which, is the Liadri mini. I actually had to think my way into receiving that reward. Why can’t we have more content like that? Not content that requires RNG, zergs, specific professions, x amount of time spent doing y task repeatedly or z amount of real world cash spent. Let’s get some honest to goodness, challenging content.

One of the things I picked up on in the pax presentation is that they are going to make the game “really, really hard”. This could be a great thing, or bad thing, all depends on implementation.

Obtena.7952:

Gene Archer.8560:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

As long as raids don’t have agony we will be fine.

You forget the stat boost. 5% is 5%. The moment raids are geared to ascended, that means that exotic gear is 5% less efficient.

Good thing we have a long way to go then because current raids aren’t even geared to exotics. When people solo content meant for teams … you know the bar in the game is set pretty low.

Lots of people associating need with want in this thread. The guy that separated farming from grinding got it right on the money. Really, the problem is that grinding is just a subjective term; the second someone perceives they have to get something by doing the same thing TOO many times, it’s a grind to them.

I have no doubt that Anet top brass know their industry and its history so their statement about the lack of grind in GW2 is quite genuine. I have noticed that as MMO’s evolve, they do get less grindy so when I see people complain … I just chuckle a bit. For example, just for a jaunt down memory lane … anyone here ever level to 220/70/30 in Anarchy Online? I doubt any that have will QQ about the ‘grind’ in GW2.

Anarchy Online was painful. Even gearing your toon was a grind if you wanted to build a certain way since you had to travel all over the map going to all of the different vendors.

Ascended is grindy as heck.

It also is either “not mandatory” or “not BiS if downleveling”. Someone did the math once and showed it might be better to have an Exotic in there instead of Ascended in certain cases.

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams. Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

You said people were soloing content meant for teams. I asked you who was soloing the raids. You said noone, cause those are meant for teams.

Sooo…which is it, then? Either people are soloing team content or they aren’t.

Funny, though, casue this game looks like every other MMO on the market to me in terms of grind and RNG, especially with ascended gear.

And I’m not a noob, so looks like you’re wrong.

You are comparing 5 man dungeons with raids dude that is not fair. If you want comapre 5 man dungeons with content from other games than compare them with 5 man dungeons from these games and hey! As a tank (paladin) I soloed bunch of 5 man heroics in epic ascended gear when they were relevant.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ascended is grindy as heck.

It also is either “not mandatory” or “not BiS if downleveling”. Someone did the math once and showed it might be better to have an Exotic in there instead of Ascended in certain cases.

I’m pretty sure you hit a power cap in some lower level zones, not counting might. If I’m correct, didn’t look too much into it, ascended gear didn’t provide anything over exotic. Not even bloodlust sigil would take you over the cap.

An important fact being missed here is that ascended is not a grind at all unless you want instant gratification. Playing the game as normal gets you all the materials you’ll need. If you beat down the door to get to the end as soon as possible, yes, you’ll have to go out of your way to achieve that method. The way to accelerate the process is to, as those define it, grind. You have an option to blast through content but when you get bored because you finished faster based on a method you CHOSE, don’t go and tailor your definition of grindy to your argument because it’s convenient. It’s grindt because you grinded. Don’t want to? Go enjoy the game and get the items at a slower, normal pace.

Players are quick to define any activity they do as grind. “Oh, I grinded world bosses.” “I grinded dungeons.” I grinded WvW". No, you played the game. If you didn’t enjoy yourself then instead of coming here to complain, evaluate why you’re playing the game in the first place.

The vast majority of the Silverwastes, the most recent area they gave us to keep us busy, is grind.

Grind events to get badges to get extractors to grind breach/vinewrath bosses for parts/carapace boxes for the collections.

Sure, its optional, but this is the content they want us to do.

Fernling.1729:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ascended is grindy as heck.

It also is either “not mandatory” or “not BiS if downleveling”. Someone did the math once and showed it might be better to have an Exotic in there instead of Ascended in certain cases.

I’m pretty sure you hit a power cap in some lower level zones, not counting might. If I’m correct, didn’t look too much into it, ascended gear didn’t provide anything over exotic. Not even bloodlust sigil would take you over the cap.

Pretty much what I recall hearing, though nobody was clear on “how low”. That plus the fact its stat boost is mostly useless and the main reason for it (Agony Resistance being possible) doesn’t matter outside of Fractals (yet) . . .

It’s mostly just showy, flashy junk which in some cases doesn’t look as nice as lesser armor or weapons.

VodCom.6924:

Some people clearly need a recall :

• An MMO is considered “grindy” if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”
• Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it “grindy”
• In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals. Of all these only fractals of level 10+ require ascended equipment. Thus one with exotic gear can access 100% of endgame content since you walk through the same fractals at level or 50 (only the difficulty changes).
• And GW2 gives you tools to bypass the leveling process for your alts (exp tomes + skill scrolls + gold to buy traits).

With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :

• Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
• bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game.

Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game.

+1
I agree with all that you said, VodCom. People aren’t being realistic about all the things involved in making and playing an MMORPG.

Pockets.3201:

The vast majority of the Silverwastes, the most recent area they gave us to keep us busy, is grind.

Grind events to get badges to get extractors to grind breach/vinewrath bosses for parts/carapace boxes for the collections.

Sure, its optional, but this is the content they want us to do.

Technically, the whole game is grind if you look at it that way. Grind events to get the stuff or the experience, or the achievements. Grind WvW for its stuff. Grind dungeons for their stuff. Grind anything you want for gold so you can buy more stuff you don’t need.

. . . honestly, it’s thankfully less of a grind than real life is.

Grind: the skill is not enough, you must to farm specific contents to be able to play something else.
For example this is why wvw not grindy (mostly). You play wvw and buy your stuff at the npc for badges and some golds. Btw we must to buy jewels if pvt is not good and sigils/runes not cheap

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Pockets.3201:

The vast majority of the Silverwastes, the most recent area they gave us to keep us busy, is grind.

Grind events to get badges to get extractors to grind breach/vinewrath bosses for parts/carapace boxes for the collections.

Sure, its optional, but this is the content they want us to do.

Technically, the whole game is grind if you look at it that way. Grind events to get the stuff or the experience, or the achievements. Grind WvW for its stuff. Grind dungeons for their stuff. Grind anything you want for gold so you can buy more stuff you don’t need.

. . . honestly, it’s thankfully less of a grind than real life is.

Isn’t that the truth.

Nothing that you “grind” for in this game is required in order to play the game. Not even the vast majority of the endgame. As others have already stated — too many of you are forcing it upon yourselves. Not ArenaNet. Just yourselves. But you don’t want to hear that…. so I’m pretty much wasting my time right now.

McWolfy.5924:

Grind: the skill is not enough, you must to farm specific contents to be able to play something else.

Very loosely translated: “Every game is grindy”. Gods, even Catan sounds grindy under that interpretation.

Unless “playing something else” means “taking the game out and putting another one in”.

Azhure.1857:

Nothing that you “grind” for in this game is required in order to play the game. Not even the vast majority of the endgame. As others have already stated — too many of you are forcing it upon yourselves. Not ArenaNet. Just yourselves. But you don’t want to hear that…. so I’m pretty much wasting my time right now.

No, you’re grinding forum rep. Keep going, you might make the Forum Warrior title, hehe

I think a lot of them realize it’s their choice, but would find it easier to shout “Skinner Box”. After all, within a Skinner Box it’s also a choice to continue or to seek something . . . it’s just that the choice is in a different context.

Games are interesting that way. I find games which don’t have even a minor amount of “grind” are not usually played as often. And when there’s more than a single player around the table/game the threshold seems to change wildly depending on if the players actually can get along with each other.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Pockets.3201:

The vast majority of the Silverwastes, the most recent area they gave us to keep us busy, is grind.

Grind events to get badges to get extractors to grind breach/vinewrath bosses for parts/carapace boxes for the collections.

Sure, its optional, but this is the content they want us to do.

Technically, the whole game is grind if you look at it that way. Grind events to get the stuff or the experience, or the achievements. Grind WvW for its stuff. Grind dungeons for their stuff. Grind anything you want for gold so you can buy more stuff you don’t need.

. . . honestly, it’s thankfully less of a grind than real life is.

“Its not as bad as real life” isn’t a shining endorsement of the activities.

Until this DXP weekend I’ve never used events for leveling. I’d just complete maps as I played, hit events if they happened nearby and weren’t annoying ones. There was no grinding really, I leveled no matter what I was doing. And that was through five of my level 80 characters.

I don’t WvW, so I can’t say much there, and I rarely do dungeons as I don’t have many people to do them with, and find much of the gear from them ugly.

Hell, I despise player run economies so I don’t even use gold that much. I’ve never had more than 200g in my pocket at once since launch.

I’ve manged to avoid most of the grind. Until the Silverwastes anyway.

Cause really, what else am I going to do at this point?

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Grinding has a traditional meaning with regard to MMOs. People want to apply their own definition to grind.

For years, the only definition I EVER heard for grind was killing mobs to level. Everything else was farming.

Yes, people use the word grind every liberally, but then, Guild Wars 1 had plenty of grind too if you were talking optional grind. You just didn’t grind for levels.

Anet explained what they meant by grind many times in interviews and at conventions after the manifesto.

If you choose to try to apply a different definition, it’s probably not Anet’s fault.

Anet made it clear in the PAX announcement that THEY do not share the interpretation that you mention. The founder and current head of the company as well as the director of the game made statements indicating that grind was not specific or exclusive to leveling.

We are not the ones applying a definition different than your own. Anet’s top people are.

No I’m using the definition in wikipedia, and I’d love to see those quotes, because I watched the whole thing and I didn’t see them. So where are they?

You didnt see the part, for example, where Colin referenced Anet’s no grind philosophy as regards to learning new abilities such as hang gliding, gaining access to otherwise unaccessible content by learning native languages, etc…all without any character leveling ?

To be fair they also claimed that the absolutely delivered on their original design plans, that didn’t happen so I wouldn’t put too much stock in what the top people were saying here consdering how this game was launched, how many plans were thrown into the mystic toilet after launch. I also use their definition of grind but for some reason they keep denying that what they put into the game is in fact a grind instead of seeing it as a progression. It’s an exceedingly lengthy process to achieve a goal, that’s a grind. That doesn’t include their leveling process but certainly to get top tier gear it is absolutely.

It’s also an absolute grind for most people to try to gather T6 materials of a particular type directly due to their DR and RNG programming and their RMTAH centric economy but I’m sure that if you spoke with one of them (who’s never played the game from day one without dev powers activated and the best gear ever) they’d all tell you that it’s perfectly balanced.

So really who are we going to believe here? Reality or something some guy is telling you that doesn’t experience that reality when they login day in and day out?

This seems like a perfect op to bring up the situation with loot just after they made changes to the number of dye drops we got in zones 30+ it’s another great example. Thousands of us were telling them there was something wrong, they didn’t listen they even went so far as to tell us all it was all in our heads, then after 9 months they discovered there was in fact an issue with loot only after it got so bad that whole chests were disappearing in dungeon runs. Remember that? But those who do will believe them when they say there’s no grind…

Ascended IS mandatory for fractal lv50, the only content at the moment remotely “challenging” to a group.

70 AR requires fully infused accessories, and 2 extra ascended pieces be they weapons or armor.

And if you wish to change weapon setups? Guess what go grind some more ascended or get screwed in fractal 50 with unavoidable agony pulses.

I know the majority of PvE players in this game are casuals who like their mindless zergball open world farm where nothing really matters, but ascended gear does make a difference in fractal 50 and it definitely makes a difference in pvp where a 5% stat advantage is still an advantage.

Pockets.3201:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Pockets.3201:

The vast majority of the Silverwastes, the most recent area they gave us to keep us busy, is grind.

Grind events to get badges to get extractors to grind breach/vinewrath bosses for parts/carapace boxes for the collections.

Sure, its optional, but this is the content they want us to do.

Technically, the whole game is grind if you look at it that way. Grind events to get the stuff or the experience, or the achievements. Grind WvW for its stuff. Grind dungeons for their stuff. Grind anything you want for gold so you can buy more stuff you don’t need.

. . . honestly, it’s thankfully less of a grind than real life is.

“Its not as bad as real life” isn’t a shining endorsement of the activities.

No, nor is it a serious comparison. Take it as one at your own peril.

Until this DXP weekend I’ve never used events for leveling. I’d just complete maps as I played, hit events if they happened nearby and weren’t annoying ones. There was no grinding really, I leveled no matter what I was doing. And that was through five of my level 80 characters.

I don’t WvW, so I can’t say much there, and I rarely do dungeons as I don’t have many people to do them with, and find much of the gear from them ugly.

Hell, I despise player run economies so I don’t even use gold that much. I’ve never had more than 200g in my pocket at once since launch.

I’ve manged to avoid most of the grind. Until the Silverwastes anyway.

Cause really, what else am I going to do at this point?

Well, that sums up my time in GW1 after finishing just about everything – might as well work on Vanquishing because what the heck else is there to do?

masterJP.5048:

No grinding to have BIS gear , Grinding for Skins (Which is Legendaries and Dungeon rewards) is how they keep you busy and is not required , Which is why they are grindy. Ascended give a small stat increase so I suppose that can be considered grindy. But not that much a increase

No game requires you to grind. You dont like raiding? Dont do it, you wont need the gear anyway. You like raiding? Do it, you will suck at first but you will get your drops from raiding and keep up with the content you are playing.

I’m very happy with the way grind is approached in this game. It’s there if I want to get my teeth into a long term goal, and I’m not really losing out if I don’t feel like it. This game is pretty much everything I’ve wanted in an MMO and is also one of my favourite games of all time. They nailed this and created a superb gameworld with great balance. If you don’t enjoy grinding, you don’t have to.

Test.8734:

Here we have a full transcript of yesterday’s presentation (thanks to the guy who wrote all that down).

Interestingly, twice Colin mentions “our no-grind philosophy for Guild Wars 2”.

It appears ArenaNet really believes their own Manifesto, when the same Colin said, “We don’t want players to grind”.

We just need to let them know that, between Ascended items and slow dungeon rewards and Legendaries and the new level-based unlocks and the new trait system unlock and etc etc, well… Their “no-grind philosophy” has been extremely grindy.

The only explanation is that they are delusional, or they are being disingenuous, relying on a highly specific definition that most people wouldn’t use. But it really shows that they don’t know what the hot button topics are for their players which is quite remarkable.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

This is from Wikipedia:

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.¹² *The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Realm of the Mad God, Tibia, or Lineage ³ in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. *

Wouldn’t the rest of the quote be relevant as well?

“Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.”

I don’t think GW2 has terrible grind. I just can’t believe how grindy ascended gear is, which just so happens to be the best gear in the game, but that could possibly be cancelled out because there is no gear treadmill.

Nope the rest of the quote isn’t relevant. That is to say what I’ve said is providing THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

Everything Anet has said from beginning to end, since the time of the manifesto supports the definition of THE MOST COMMON USEAGE.

The other definitions might or might not apply.

But if there is a MOST COMMON USEAGE, and that useage is supported by context, continually, then people who are not using the MOST COMMON USEAGE are being willfully ignorant.

If I make a statement and define what I mean and someone comes along and says this sentence can also mean this and this, it’s not relevant at all to my statement.

Even if it was true that was ‘the most common usages’ it does not mean the other usages suddenly do not count as grind anymore. So if people talk about grind they all count equally (that includes Anet talking about grind!). And that paragraph where you quoted from even ends with the sentence [Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.] so the article itself refers to grind for getting additional items. Exactly what is going on here.

Besides you did not make a statement and defined what you meant. You simply quoted a definition (well part of it) from wiki seemingly to proof that, that was the definition of grind. It was not like you said.. I do not find it grindy because for me grindy means this and it does not fit into this. If you did then we might be able to agree it did not fit into your definition what is btw completely irrelevant for the people who consider it grindy.

It seems like everybody here agrees there is grind in GW2 only some want to ignore it because that grind does not count according to them. And I can understand that that grind does not effect there personal game-play but that does not mean it does not count for other people.

As I said, not once, but many times across many threads, if a word has multiple definitions, it’s up to people to define what they mean by it. Anet did that, not once, but many times.

If people refuse to accept that, it’s their own issue.

Let me be lear about two things.

I did hear Anet say they wanted a grind free game. I did not hear them say,’ we want a grind free game but this is what we see as grind and all other other forms of grind don’t count for us as grind so can and will be in the game’.

Second, the fact that they said it would be grind free is nice to refer to in this discussion and makes it even more important but not in any way is it required for the complaint. There are other grindy games people complain about the grind while the company never said it would have no grind. Are they then not allowed to complain about it? Remember the forums back during season 1 when people complained about temporary content. Anet never stated they would not have temporary content. So that statement might make it even more important but it’s not like if it’s required for people to complain about something they dislike in a game.

People dislike this grind and so they complain about it. The defense against that in general in this forum seems to be that it does not fits in there (person defending) definition of a grindy game (while agreeing the grind people complain about does indeed exist) or your defense is that Anet did not specifically mention this grind but was (according to you?) talking about another type of grind. Both seem irrelevant to the complaint. It does not disproof the complaint, it does not devaluate the complaint, it does not make the complaint go away.

Silverwastes and Dry Top is nothing but boring grind for the items there.

Davey.7029:

Devata.6589:

Davey.7029:

If you call Guild Wars 2 grindy, then you really haven’t played any other MMORPG.

That is an assumption I know for a fact is wrong as I do consider GW2 grindy and did play multiple other mmo’s.

How? Plenty of MMO’s require you to stay in the same zone and grind for days until you can move to the next one, and then grind even more.

In many MMO’s the max level isn’t even achievable to the average player, and in the ones where it is possible to reach the cap, you grind for gear for about 6 months until the next content update is released and your gear is then becomes obsolete.

And let’s not talk about MMO’s where you actually have to reach the level cap until you can participate in any form of PvP. In Guild Wars 2 you can start doing PvP right from the start.

That’s one of the reasons of why people keep coming back to this game, because other MMO’s feel so old and outdated.

“you grind for gear for about 6 months until the next content update” that is a form of grind people say is in WoW. Now I don’t feel the need to reach level cap itself as a goal, I might need it to get the items I want but usually I leveled up along the way. I also never feel the need for the best gear (That according to some is required). So I don’t feel the grind in those games. Does that mean the people complaining about that grind are wrong?, does it mean there is no grind in those game? Of course not, it just means it does not affect me. In this game it’s just the other way around. The type of grind you talk about might not be so much here but the other type is here. The thing is, this game is more based about cosmetics then getting best gear so if anything this type of grind you don’t care about might be even more of a problem for this game then for games build around getting best gear.

Zenith.7301:

Ascended IS mandatory for fractal lv50, the only content at the moment remotely “challenging” to a group.

70 AR requires fully infused accessories, and 2 extra ascended pieces be they weapons or armor.

And if you wish to change weapon setups? Guess what go grind some more ascended or get screwed in fractal 50 with unavoidable agony pulses.

I know the majority of PvE players in this game are casuals who like their mindless zergball open world farm where nothing really matters, but ascended gear does make a difference in fractal 50 and it definitely makes a difference in pvp where a 5% stat advantage is still an advantage.

Let me tell you why that’s BS.

Beginning with the most egregious BS,

• Ascended armor, weapons, and trinkets provide a net bonus of zero, zilch, nothing for you in PvP.

All gear is normalized in PvP from whites to purples. Your gear means nothing in PvP. You customize that with the PvP jewels.

• Level 50 fractals is an optional endeavor, probably wonderful money wise and exceedingly challenging… and not compulsory or necessary at all.

No body needs a level 50 fractal. No one.

The most rewarding things that fractals has to offer you (exclusive weapon skins) are potential rewards long before level 50. That’s by design.

Now, what does that tell you about the intentions of the designers there with regards to grind?

Come on now. Put on your thinking cap. I know you can figure this out!

Gene Archer.8560:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

As long as raids don’t have agony we will be fine.

You forget the stat boost. 5% is 5%. The moment raids are geared to ascended, that means that exotic gear is 5% less efficient.

5% may be much or little depending on the impact stats have in a game compared to skill. If you look into it, you’ll find that in GW2, skill has amuch larger impact than stats, thus making those 5% fairly meaningless. I dare to say you will never be able to find content in this game that require that 5% stat boost because the difference will always be vastly outdone by differences in player skill levels.

And I’m not talking about “casual” vs. “hardcore”. I know a lot of people who have every right to consider themselves good, are experienced and well-equipped (including ascended) with their characters, know the content, and still would have difficulties low-manning dungeons they run regularly. Others you will find with mostly exotics that do the same dungeons as duo or even solo.

As long as the skill difference between the good and the best has such a huge impact on this game, 5% different in stats won’t be an issue in any kind of content. Those 5% won’t save your behind if you can’t read and react to the combat flawlessly.

As for aquiring ascended, I don’t grind, since my free time is too valuable to me, and I don’t farm, since I find it a boring activity. I am, however, a hoarder, and have stored/processed pretty much all of the materials I find on my numerous alts (I enjoy leveling … currently on characters #13+14 of 23), and advanced crafting/crafted ascended equipment whenever I found I had enough resources in store. As of now, I have a complete, hand-crafted set of light and heavy ascended armour each (although I don’t play the two characters wearing that all that often), plus 5 crafted weapons. I’ve also got three armour boxes (one each from pvp, wvw, and fractals, neither of which I play all that regularly) waiting for whenever I decide to gear one of the medium professions.

Did it take me longer than others to aquire ascended equipment? Yes. Did I have to grind for it? No. Did I have to farm for it? No. Why did I craft it at all, if I don’t find it to have much influence on my gaming (aside from high-level fractals)? Because it was something to do, and I enjoy collecting and filling my wardrobe . I’d rather “waste” my resources that way than sell everything for useless (to me) gold.

Mike O"Brien; GW2 Design Manifesto Blog

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Note: “Force you onto a grinding treadmill” This is a clear reference to gearing up for endgame and the repetitive endgame gear treadmill where the gear is required for content completion.

Is it Fun? Colin Johanson on how ArenaNet Measures Success

Fun impacts loot collection: The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Seems to me that two of the most prominent pieces of pre-launch advertising refer to lack of gear treadmills. Also note: “… so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so…”

Grind is in the experience of the player. Some people like long-term goals. That was the rationale behind Ascended, and the rationale given by many of those who defended the inclusion of Ascended. Since there has only been the one tier added, it’s a little soon to call it a gear treadmill. The point, though, is that Legendary Weapons and other cosmetic items require a lot of collecting are aimed at a demographic that likes involved, long-term goals. However, there are people who are not in that demographic , but who want those items. Those people are going to experience grind because they choose to go after something not aimed at them.

So, does GW2 have short and intermediate-range goals for players to shoot at? There are plenty, but after 2+ years, many players will have reached the less-involved goals. That’s the real issue here. Easily achieved goals meet the needs of those who want goals but don’t like to pursue something long term. However, catering to those players can involve high resource use because it takes almost as much effort to produce a short-time pursuit as a long-time pursuit, but it holds player attention for a much shorter time.

Hm, I seem to play another game than you who tell us GW2 is grindy.

I bought a second account months ago after they introduced the NPE, just to check that out. And I hold it strictly separate from my main account (no helping). I played about 15 hours per week on it. After about 3 weeks I was at level 80 with that account’s main character. After 4 weeks I had a full set of exotic armor and the most used weapons. Two weeks later I had the ascended trinkets. And that without feeling that I grinded too much. Just the opposite: It was fun. Except trait unlocking, sigh…

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.

You are absolutely need it if you want to fight another players at the WvW.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Having a hard time translating this.

Yeah, we know.

To proper English I left that part out initially because I did not want to come over rude towards you. Anyway, nice that of the comment this is all you had something to say about.

Not much left to say, there is no honest discussion to be had. I’ve attempted to clarify this to you at least three times. And that’s just me.

Other people are saying the same thing. You double down and repeat your mantra of all things are grind and therefore GW2 is grind.

By saying everything is optional and therefore qualifies as a grind to support your argument, it follows that everything is considered a grind.

You said this. Not me.

Following this logic, I suppose you’re correct in the same way I’m related to the sun. We’re the exact same thing, the sun and I. We’re both made out of atoms after all.

Screw the relevant details, right?

You’re using relativism logic and stretching yourself like spaghetti to make an argument for grind when there isn’t any in any honest sense compared to other games in the same genre. GW2 stands apart in this regard.

I can’t help you understand this concept if you’re not getting me after three posts. Can’t say I didn’t try. Maybe it’s the language barrier?

Oow but it’s completely clear what you and some other people are saying. The grind is there but it’s not the grind you mind much, it’s ‘optional’ for you because it does not lock out content (you like to do). That is nice, but that does not take away the grind that other people complain about or even left the game for. And so it does not remove the complaint. It only shows it’s not a problem for you what is completely irrelevant for the people who do mind that grind.

“You double down and repeat your mantra of all things are grind” that is something you made up and keep repeating. Not once I said that. I said all things are optional and so the ‘this does not count as grind because it’s not mandatory’ excuse is nonsense, but I did not say everything is a grind.

“By saying everything is optional and therefore qualifies as a grind to support your argument, it follows that everything is considered a grind.”
Yeah this conclusion of you makes no sense what so ever. Besides, I did say everything is optional, I did not say that makes everything grind. I only said that means all grind is grind and not like you say only the grind you consider required is grind.
So in short. Me: grind = grind. You grind = sometimes counts as grind but other times it does not.

“You said this. Not me.” Pretty sure you said it “it follows that everything is considered a grind.” You make this very illogical conclusion. I did say everything is optional but you came that that illogical conclusion based on that.

“You’re using relativism logic” Wait, it was your logical conclusion remember. I said everything is optional on what you logically (uhum) concluded I said everything was grind.

“ grind when there isn’t any in any honest sense compared to other games in the same genre.” What other games? Again it seems you are referring to the grind you personally have a problem with. There is not so much of the grind you dislike in this game as there is in some of those other games you refer to. That is great for you, why don’t you want this to be the case for all GW2 players?

“Maybe it’s the language barrier?” That might be it. But that’s oke, I won’t judge you on that.

SilverWF.4789:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.

You are absolutely need it if you want to fight another players at the WvW.

HAH. . . . that’s priceless.

No. No you don’t. You need to be a warrior or thief Then you can kill to your black, shriveled, lifeless heart’s content.

Obtena.7952:

Nothing .. those are content meant for many teams, not a single team. The content you mentioned isn’t balanced around gear, it’s balanced around co-operation and player volume; those are RAID content, not instanced (re. dungeon/fractals) content.

Point still stands … in the industry, GW2 is not grindy by traditional definitions. Maybe in 10 years it might be considered so, but for now, only the most noob players would QQ about grindy GW2.

If you have no real arguments just start naming people you disagree with ‘Noobs’.

Not to mention that those ‘noobs’ are asking for something more interesting than the grind there is now. The defenders seem to like the brainless grind (or are not interested in the collecting (also mention as one of the important things for GW2 in the presentation!) those thing). So now wanting challenging content makes you a noob? But being fine with brainless grinding makes you a pro?

Makes sense!