Guild Wars 2

I can’t think of anything I could not do in masterwork greens that I can in exotics. Fractals requiring agony resist are obviously their own animal, but I’d bet many nickels on that I could go clear dungeons in zerker greens just about as well as I do in my ascended zerker. Sure, there’d be an output reduction, but it wouldn’t have any impact what do ever on my traits, my sigils or my runes.

Challenge accepted. I’ve found my fun new thing to do for the evening – see what the difference feels like between greens and ascended.

naiasonod.9265:

I can’t think of anything I could not do in masterwork greens that I can in exotics. Fractals requiring agony resist are obviously their own animal, but I’d bet many nickels on that I could go clear dungeons in zerker greens just about as well as I do in my ascended zerker. Sure, there’d be an output reduction, but it wouldn’t have any impact what do ever on my traits, my sigils or my runes.

Challenge accepted. I’ve found my fun new thing to do for the evening – see what the difference feels like between greens and ascended.

You can run dungeons in WoW in all white twill doesn’t make it effective or the slightest bit rewarding nor does it invalid the fact that max level gear was supposed to stop at Exotic at launch.

tigirius.9014:

naiasonod.9265:

I can’t think of anything I could not do in masterwork greens that I can in exotics. Fractals requiring agony resist are obviously their own animal, but I’d bet many nickels on that I could go clear dungeons in zerker greens just about as well as I do in my ascended zerker. Sure, there’d be an output reduction, but it wouldn’t have any impact what do ever on my traits, my sigils or my runes.

Challenge accepted. I’ve found my fun new thing to do for the evening – see what the difference feels like between greens and ascended.

You can run dungeons in WoW in all white twill doesn’t make it effective or the slightest bit rewarding nor does it invalid the fact that max level gear was supposed to stop at Exotic at launch.

ColinJohanson.2394:

EgonVenkman.1907:

No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.

I wonder if Colin or other developers are still following this thread because there are some interesting discussions going on nice showing the the different type of players feeling different about the different types of grind (or absence thereof depending on the game-play) that are in this game.

It would not be bad at all as they used this information an an attempt to improve the whole rewarding in HoT as rewarding is one of the few / main things in GW2 that many people do feel negative about. While not all people do of course.

I kinda wish Colin would comment on the BiS infusions. These are the 5 stat + 5 ar infusions which only have one source, mystic forge recipe, requires MORE t6 mats than a legendary of a full set (1400 for all slots, 2000 if you wants both weapons slots + underwater). AND 14-20 STACKS of karka shells or passion fruit.
Yes I know there are wvw infusions, but if you step into fractal 50 your instant dead. Well unless you have two +23 ar infusions and a +24 on rings and back. that only takes 33,554,532 +1 ar infusions to make.
This is an instant that either you wear:
subpar equipment (5 ar with no stats)
grind the same mobs or gold for the same 2 materials to make the BiS infusions
OR
You are gated out of content not because of skill, but because you don’t want to drop 800g-1000g.

AR needs to be removed from fractals, or the cost of fine infusions needs to be lowered.

Shadowmoon.7986:

AR needs to be removed from fractals, or the cost of fine infusions needs to be lowered.

All the AR you need is available for fractal relics though. I wouldn’t call their lack of a +5 stat “subpar.” +5 is doing very little for you anyway.

Nah, the infusion system needs to be completely redesigned.
Its nothing but a terrible grind system, that becomes rapidly exorbitantly bigger and bigger only rising proportionally super fast into heights, where it quickly becomes impossible for a player to get better with this silly formula to improve infusiobs that requires you for each subsequent +1 to double each time your efforts in grindign for infusions or gold to buy the unfusions you need….

The Infusion and AR system are in a dire need of a redesign to make GW2 more alt character friendly again because as it stands right now with this horrible AR/Infusion system, players are literally FORCED to play and build up AR/Infusions only just 1 single character, because doing the work for more than just 1 character is way too tedious and grindy as hell.

AR needs to become an accountbound feature, which should be working like Magic Find and infusions should work like Luck Essences. So more infusions you use, so more rises your AR Bonus for your Account, so that ALL OF YOUR CHARACTERS can profit equally from your runs into the fractals, regardless with which of your characters you are currently playing.

Thise mini stat boosting infusions are also way too costy with their T6 stack costs
250 T6 Bloods/Claws is just ridiculous for that tiny bonus of 5 points for a single stat.
if that would be the amount for a complete armor set, then it would be ok, but for every single armor piece?? laughable, thats for just one single armro set then whoping 1500 T6 Bloods or claws regardign your build

Just think about it, we don’t haven seen yet even any masterwork, rare, exotic or even ascennded infusions and we still are just only at fine and they require such a huge grind, just to be able to get your theoretically perfect max statted equipment

to quote Colin
“- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)”
+5 of a stat doesn’t sound like alot, but +70 extra stats do really add up. Again it is a statistical advantage.

Shadowmoon.7986:

to quote Colin
“- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)”
+5 of a stat doesn’t sound like alot, but +70 extra stats do really add up. Again it is a statistical advantage.

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

captainteemo.6537:

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.

Gw2 might still have a bit of grinding for stuff in it but it is so much better than many other games out there, as in i have a few where you have to spend atleast 4 hours of hard grinding using op methods to get 1/10 of the way to a new item. Then upgrade it takes even longer, gw2 we barely have to gring anything, and its fun and interesting grind too imo

Zero Day.2594:

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

Where did he ever admit this about infusions?
Only statement he backed away from was “having best statistical gear by the time you hit 80” from the is it fun blog post.

Shadowmoon.7986:

Zero Day.2594:

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

Where did he ever admit this about infusions?
Only statement he backed away from was “having best statistical gear by the time you hit 80” from the is it fun blog post.

No admittance of faults occurred no apology to the fans for making the mistake of adding two things to the game they claimed would never happen (gear treadmill/power creep – grind) nothing….in fact according to the show they are in full denial mode “we delivered what we set out to do” and “games change sometimes” are pretty much all we heard. There’s rose tinted glasses and then there are full on blinders.

Shadowmoon.7986:

Zero Day.2594:

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

Where did he ever admit this about infusions?
Only statement he backed away from was “having best statistical gear by the time you hit 80” from the is it fun blog post.

Oh infusion, yeah that they didn’t say anything about. I thought it was about ascended gear…

tigirius.9014:

Shadowmoon.7986:

Zero Day.2594:

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

Where did he ever admit this about infusions?
Only statement he backed away from was “having best statistical gear by the time you hit 80” from the is it fun blog post.

No admittance of faults occurred no apology to the fans for making the mistake of adding two things to the game they claimed would never happen (gear treadmill/power creep – grind) nothing….in fact according to the show they are in full denial mode “we delivered what we set out to do” and “games change sometimes” are pretty much all we heard. There’s rose tinted glasses and then there are full on blinders.

ColinJohanson.2394:

EgonVenkman.1907:

No matter what current method chosen, it is still light years away from your very comment that by level 80, players should have the best statistical loot in the game.

Yeah to be clear on that one, as we’ve said before: we made that statement before the game launched, ultimately realized we didn’t think it was the right decision for Gw2 – and changed our mind. I fully own making this statement, the day I said it was our plan – our lead designer decided it was the wrong direction for the game after we stated it, and we changed direction.

Sometimes plans will change, I can assure you it’s never our intention to intentionally mislead/trick anyone, that’s simply the nature of development: from time to time things we say at one point later have to change.

That’s at least 1 of the two things.

tigirius.9014:

Shadowmoon.7986:

Zero Day.2594:

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

Where did he ever admit this about infusions?
Only statement he backed away from was “having best statistical gear by the time you hit 80” from the is it fun blog post.

No admittance of faults occurred no apology to the fans for making the mistake of adding two things to the game they claimed would never happen (gear treadmill/power creep – grind) nothing….in fact according to the show they are in full denial mode “we delivered what we set out to do” and “games change sometimes” are pretty much all we heard. There’s rose tinted glasses and then there are full on blinders.

I don’t think they need to admit fault, and I don’t think they need to apologize. You’re talking about a change made years ago, and they offered at the time, refunds to people who didn’t like that change, even going as far as offering a refund for six months. And many people didn’t care about the change at all.

There was a “grass roots” movement of people to whom vertical progression of any kind was a four letter word, but that movement didn’t represent any kind of majority. If you didn’t like the changes to the game, you should have cut your losses right then, and gotten a refund which apparently some people did.

If you chose to stay and you continue to complain, you are entitled to exactly nothing.

you people are delusional… they are bending you over like sheep.. take for instance the new harvest nodes… they have gone from a 3 pack for 800 gems on the store to a single node RNG from BL chests you HAVE to buy keys to get…. nothing says raaaaaaaaaaaape like like that…

Because it was pretty much cried foul over the nodes being sold not being “worth it”. So, take it from the Gem Store and drop it into the chests, make them tradeable, and there you go.

Not like you really need them. A couple places I know of can generate quite a bit of Platinum and such. Not to mention Mithril and Elder Wood . . . Orr is a great place to search, especially Malchor’s Leap.

tigirius.9014:

No admittance of faults occurred no apology to the fans for making the mistake of adding two things to the game they claimed would never happen (gear treadmill/power creep – grind) nothing….in fact according to the show they are in full denial mode “we delivered what we set out to do” and “games change sometimes” are pretty much all we heard. There’s rose tinted glasses and then there are full on blinders.

Well fans asked for more stuff they can work on on their max-level chars, so ANet delivered. It’s always a bit surprising when later people figure out that “Wait, now we have to grind gear? WTF, I wanted a gear upgrade, not this!”.

Don’t ask for “more gear to obtain” when you don’t want Ascended. Because players complained like mad how there was nothing to do at 80 because you were immediately decked out in max gear. All through beta and early release. ANet delivered. Ofc it was a terrible idea and should have never happened but hey, player feedback.

(There’s a reason good devs don’t really listen to their players, players are a terrible source of input for your dev direction.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Not like you really need them. A couple places I know of can generate quite a bit of Platinum and such. Not to mention Mithril and Elder Wood . . . Orr is a great place to search, especially Malchor’s Leap.

Yeah, the harvest nodes are a bit of a weird thing. They don’t provide something you cannot get much faster out in the world, especially when it comes to wood and ores because they’re just so abundant (at least plants have the herb-plants which are difficult to get a lot of).

Carighan.6758:

tigirius.9014:

No admittance of faults occurred no apology to the fans for making the mistake of adding two things to the game they claimed would never happen (gear treadmill/power creep – grind) nothing….in fact according to the show they are in full denial mode “we delivered what we set out to do” and “games change sometimes” are pretty much all we heard. There’s rose tinted glasses and then there are full on blinders.

Well fans asked for more stuff they can work on on their max-level chars, so ANet delivered. It’s always a bit surprising when later people figure out that “Wait, now we have to grind gear? WTF, I wanted a gear upgrade, not this!”.

Don’t ask for “more gear to obtain” when you don’t want Ascended. Because players complained like mad how there was nothing to do at 80 because you were immediately decked out in max gear. All through beta and early release. ANet delivered. Ofc it was a terrible idea and should have never happened but hey, player feedback.

(There’s a reason good devs don’t really listen to their players, players are a terrible source of input for your dev direction.)

Actually I didn’t even want stats on the gear but they made that change right at Beta and I had to deal with it, adding a whole other set of gear that no one wanted but the 1% most of which aren’t even playing this game anymore and who say things like GW2 what’s that whenever a news article comes out about it wasn’t a smart move because history has shown that the casuals are generally the ones that stay with games years after release and the rush to the end crowds have left for their next fix. That’s number one.

Number 2 they didn’t do what many of us were asking for, in fact they’ve made Karma complete useless really we asked for expanding the sets you could buy with Karma to make the Exotic sets from karma vendors more in line with what you could get from crafting, that never happened so where people are getting this idea that Ascended was wanted and welcome is beyond me.

Shadowmoon.7986:

to quote Colin
“- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)”
+5 of a stat doesn’t sound like alot, but +70 extra stats do really add up. Again it is a statistical advantage.

But the hole ‘need’ part is questionable. I do not ‘need’ BiS gear.. I do also not ‘need’ exotic gear and that is the same in those other games people point towards like WoW. Yeah maybe back in 1990 there where games where you needed to farm 1 mob to get gear to be able to kill the next mob meanwhile there is nothing else to do??? But that ‘need’ to grind does not exist in any of the modern game. You can simply play those games and level up while doing so and getting the required gear along the way.
So if you look at it from that way what does the whole ‘no grind philosophy‘ still stand for as if it’s a unique thing GW2 offers? All games on the market offer that.

Now of course the ‘need’ part does in those games exist at max level. You can do dungeons and some PvP and even raids with normal gear. The moment you need to grind for gear in those games is IF is you want BiS or IF you want to do PvP on the highest level or IF you want to do raids at the highest level. There is always the IF and it’s your choice.

But how is that then different from GW2? Some people here talk about ascended gear that you need IF you want to do fractals as the highest level and you need to do an endless gold grind IF you want to collect the coolest skins.

So I still find the ‘need’ part really questionable.

captainteemo.6537:

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).

So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).

So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.

Watch this.

I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.

Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.

In some cases, I wanted those stats more than I need ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.

In the end, it’s all just a matter of what you consider grind. I thought Lotro was far more grindy than Guild Wars 2. DDO is certainly more grindy than Guild Wars 2. And I certainly felt like I was grinding in AOC.

tigirius.9014:

Number 2 they didn’t do what many of us were asking for, in fact they’ve made Karma complete useless really we asked for expanding the sets you could buy with Karma to make the Exotic sets from karma vendors more in line with what you could get from crafting, that never happened so where people are getting this idea that Ascended was wanted and welcome is beyond me.

Yet I feel they are caving in. Carapace and Luminescent were added, also implementing that “Difficult to acquire gear looks” players have been asking for in the Luminescent upgrades. And though some parts of them are grindy, plenty (achievement-based) are not.

I can however understand not using Karma for it. Really. Some players are sitting on millions of karma. I have >2,5 million, and that’s after creating a legendary. Without ever farming for Karma actively. I just do some WvW, some PvP, some PvE. 2,5k hours players.

What they’d first need to implement is a reason (and a system not involving 50000 clicks) for me to drain my 2,5 million karma. Then once they got everyone back to a reasonable baseline they could add new stuff to karma. But in absence of such a system, I can understand rather using other systems for it.

More so because this is a thread about not wanting to grind, so adding things to a grind-currency like karma – I have 2,5 mil but I bet the moment they implement it threads would pop up what a grind it is to get that karma for the new stuff! – instead of say, hard-mode achievements, would be counterproductive.

Zero Day.2594:

Shadowmoon.7986:

to quote Colin
“- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)”
+5 of a stat doesn’t sound like alot, but +70 extra stats do really add up. Again it is a statistical advantage.

And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…

The fault he admitted was stating lvl80s should have the best gear in the game when they get to 80. He explicitly in this thread acknowledges ascended gear as BiS but denies the acquisition of ascended is a grind.

Carighan.6758:

Don’t ask for “more gear to obtain” when you don’t want Ascended. Because players complained like mad how there was nothing to do at 80 because you were immediately decked out in max gear. All through beta and early release. ANet delivered. Ofc it was a terrible idea and should have never happened but hey, player feedback.

This has been refuted time and again. There were some complaints but it was hardly a overwhelming no. of complaints.

Conncept.7638:

Rasimir.6239:

Excuse me, but if you need ascended gear for the content you listet, then I’m sorry to say but that’s not a problem of power creep but a simple problem of l2p.

No I’m afraid it is a learn to think issue on your part. All of that content has a win condition based on harsh and unforgiving failure timers, if you don’t bring max stats you are contributing to the content failing, if enough people don’t the content is a lost cause before it even begins. Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm, tequatl, and vinewraith runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none. Be in BiS gear, or don’t show up.

You do realize that the game down-leveling you for Tequatl and Tripple Trouble also means that your ascended gear is downleveled to stats that are exactly the same as exotic lvl 80 gear of the same stat set?

And yes, I have done TA Aetherpath, Dry Top and Silverwastes with plenty characters in less than full exotics, and with plenty friends that were nowhere near their first piece of ascended equipment. You don’t need ascended anywhere in this game aside from level 20+ fractals (10+ if you don’t know the encounters well).

People requiring BiS (ascended) equipment for simply succeeding in content in this game in a decent timeframe don’t know what they’re doing in the first place.

Vayne.8563:

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2.

Indeed. And this topic has proved that your definition of grind (and that you claimed was ArenaNet’s definition) was wrong; it’s not ArenaNet’s definition of grind. From which we see that your interpretation of the Manifesto was wrong as well (see my signature for details). Thus, if that’s how the discussion starts, and in that you were wrong, well…

When the primary source of content is Achievements and Collections, it’s safe to say the no grind philosophy is dead.

Lord Kuru.3685:

When the primary source of content is Achievements and Collections, it’s safe to say the no grind philosophy is dead.

Hey, look at that, Titles for Hall of Monuments is waving hello!

:)

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2.

Indeed. And this topic has proved that your definition of grind (and that you claimed was ArenaNet’s definition) was wrong; it’s not ArenaNet’s definition of grind. From which we see that your interpretation of the Manifesto was wrong as well (see my signature for details). Thus, if that’s how the discussion starts, and in that you were wrong, well…

What was said in the manifesto was said in the manifesto. It’s a paragraph. You can ask anyone in the world to ask what they meant by something they said 4 years ago, and it has about as much chance as being wrong as right.

Do you even think Colin wrote the manifesto?

The paragraph is quite clear. All you have to do is look at the words in it.

Colin is answering questions from four years ago based on stuff that’s said since. But the manifesto is something that anyone can read and see, and without having a previous definition of grind, depending on the document itself for grind, it’s self-explanatory.

If you don’t agree, it doesn’t change anything. There’s not a single word in that paragraph about gear. Not one.

Out of all of the ascended items, armour is the most costly part and is the least needed except for fractals 50 which aren’t exactly rewarding enough to have something to complain about. The priority should be to get weapons since they bring the highest improvement and trinkets which are very easy to get.

Also, let’s not forget that in all the content that’s not level 80, your ascended gear is being downscaled to exotic. So for all those hard bosses like teq or wurm, there is virtually no difference if you are running around with exotic or ascended gear.

To reiterate, the only part of ascended gear that could be considered really grindy is an ascended armour but it’s silly to consider it obligatory anywhere except FotM scale 50. The stats gain is miniscule at best (something around 14 more major stat and 11 more minor stats) and its costs can go as high as 500g.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Obtena.7952:

Equipping yourself in this game to be competitive has no grind. You don’t need BiS gear or Ascended to complete any of the content or compete in WvW. This is what I believe Anet is saying.

This has always been my take on the “no grind”, debate in this game.

No place in the game requires anything beyond EXOTIC equipment (really you can do it all with RARE gear). (EDIT: Ok, you need Ascended in some form for Fractals) The number of methods to obtain these tier of equipment is quite wide and requires NO GRIND at all.

Ascended and Legendary gear is completely optional (sans mid to high level Fractals) despite what some players want to claim.

basically you can experience every fractal without any resistance. so even for this exotic is enough.

BammBamm.6719:

basically you can experience every fractal without any resistance. so even for this exotic is enough.

Yes, it was, and still is Been there, done all of the originals within the first couple weeks of release in nothing but Exotics and Rares. Still doing them with four pieces of Ascended Gear, three pieces of Rare Gear, and the rest are Exotic. Except the aquabreather, natch.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

`

~

Watch this.

I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.

Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.
~ snap for space

What your basically saying is that factually you can’t say there is grind because grind is an opinion.

“It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.” So it’s also NOT like captainteemo said that this game is not grindy and people who say so simply haven’t played any other games. That is FACTUALLY untrue! (What was my main point) Besides it’s not only about it being an opinion, it has also to do with what part of the game / game-play you like (something I did mention many times before). If he is a person who likes BiS gear he might not see the grind people see who like cosmetics and the other way around.

In addition it is also factual that there are many people grinding gold in this game, (like the champ trains or EotM). To throw in another fact, there are many, many items that you can only obtain yourself in two ways.. buying them for cash (what is not playing the game) or buying with gold.

Of course then there are the many things that are not really obtainable in a viable way in the game directly but where the only viable option is to grind gold to get them. But then you would of course say it’s technically possible and so factually untrue (plus that the grind is an opinion) what is correct if it comes to those items. Of course there is a big difference between realistically and technically and we also have something as common sense but I know those don’t really count for you when trying to make your point. That’s why I started with the facts here and this common sense paragraph is for other readers.

So factually people are grinding gold and factually there are many items only game wise obtainable in this game with gold.

Of course it’s personal how much grind you consider bad, no denying that (while again common sense does get you a long way here) but an item I earn by completing a quest does not fall in the category ‘grind’ what is a much used way to reward those items in the other games while for most of those items here I have as only option grinding gold what already would make it even more grindy based on that alone. Even without the common sense of the amount of grind is required in GW2 for collecting those type of items.

“So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.”
It was captainteemo who made a statement like this, not me. I am not saying he might not experience any grind in those games or less grind in this game. I think he is telling the truth about that part and likely experience less grind because he plays in another way prefers other parts of the game / gameplay.

You would have done a great job arguing why captainteemo’s statement is wrong, not mine.

So sorry, but this tactic of trying to disprove something with these sorts of arguments do not work on me, and really, why are you still using them? I did see you use the same tactics in discussions where people said many players where leaving the game, on what you basically said they could not make that statement, they did not have the numbers. Forums where just a minority and there guilds where just a subgroup and so on (basically also ignoring common sense because you could not factually proof it). Of course eventually Anet came with the NPE also saying they were losing to many players even before they got 80. Turns out those people you tried to knock down with this sort of arguments where right. Same for temporary content discussions, so Vayne please let’s try to have a normal discussion instead of trying to use these sort of tactics and let also no dismiss common sense.

I would appreciate that. The common sense stuff is also what the players experience you see. It’s irrelevant for the player that something as grind is also bound to opinion and so it can’t factually / scientifically be said it is a grind. Completely irrelevant, they experience a grind and might dislike that part of the game. That’s it, and that’s all that is relevant here.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

`

~

Watch this.

I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.

Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.
~ snap for space

What your basically saying is that factually you can’t say there is grind because grind is an opinion.

snip

So factually people are grinding gold and factually there are many items only game wise obtainable in this game with gold.

Of course it’s personal how much grind you consider bad, no denying that (while again common sense does get you a long way here) but an item I earn by completing a quest does not fall in the category ‘grind’ what is a much used way to reward those items in the other games while for most of those items here I have as only option grinding gold what already would make it even more grindy based on that alone. Even without the common sense of the amount of grind is required in GW2 for collecting those type of items.

“So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.”
It was captainteemo who made a statement like this, not me. I am not saying he might not experience any grind in those games or less grind in this game. I think he is telling the truth about that part and likely experience less grind because he plays in another way prefers other parts of the game / gameplay.

You would have done a great job arguing why captainteemo’s statement is wrong, not mine.

So sorry, but this tactic of trying to disprove something with these sorts of arguments do not work on me, and really, why are you still using them? I did see you use the same tactics in discussions where people said many players where leaving the game, on what you basically said they could not make that statement, they did not have the numbers. Forums where just a minority and there guilds where just a subgroup and so on (basically also ignoring common sense because you could not factually proof it). Of course eventually Anet came with the NPE also saying they were losing to many players even before they got 80. Turns out those people you tried to knock down with this sort of arguments where right. Same for temporary content discussions, so Vayne please let’s try to have a normal discussion instead of trying to use these sort of tactics and let also no dismiss common sense.

I would appreciate that. The common sense stuff is also what the players experience you see. It’s irrelevant for the player that something as grind is also bound to opinion and so it can’t factually / scientifically be said it is a grind. Completely irrelevant, they experience a grind and might dislike that part of the game. That’s it and that’s all that is relevant here.

The argument doesn’t work on you because you’ve already made up your mind. To people who haven’t made up their mind, they can make up their own minds whether my argument is sound.

You don’t get to define grind your way. You don’t get to make up your own definitions. In any statement using a word with multiple definitions, it’s the speaker who defines how he’s using the word. If people after that want to use the word differently and then call that speaker a liar, well, that’s their own affair. I don’t think it’s right and I’ll never think it’s right.

So yes, by your definition there is grind in this game. But since the original statements weren’t using your definition, I don’t see the relevance of your statement.

The manifesto, where all this started, never mentioned gear in the paragraph about grind. It never mentioned gold. It mentioned combat.

You want to go off in a different direction and talk about other stuff go ahead. But don’t try to pretend it’s reasonable.

Yes I agree with you. Your definition of grind, as used by you, is in the game. But it’s not the only definition of grind and it’s not the definition of grind as implied by the words of the manifesto.

Again, if you can see anything in that paragraph about gear or about gold or about vertical progression, I’d love to see it.

No one can produce that evidence because it doesn’t exist. I’m using the actual words of the manifesto, to which Anet referred.

You’re using another definition, which may not be empirically wrong, but it’s misleading when taken with what Anet said.

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2.

Indeed. And this topic has proved that your definition of grind (and that you claimed was ArenaNet’s definition) was wrong; it’s not ArenaNet’s definition of grind. From which we see that your interpretation of the Manifesto was wrong as well (see my signature for details). Thus, if that’s how the discussion starts, and in that you were wrong, well…

What was said in the manifesto was said in the manifesto. It’s a paragraph. You can ask anyone in the world to ask what they meant by something they said 4 years ago, and it has about as much chance as being wrong as right.

Do you even think Colin wrote the manifesto?

The paragraph is quite clear. All you have to do is look at the words in it.

Colin is answering questions from four years ago based on stuff that’s said since. But the manifesto is something that anyone can read and see, and without having a previous definition of grind, depending on the document itself for grind, it’s self-explanatory.

If you don’t agree, it doesn’t change anything. There’s not a single word in that paragraph about gear. Not one.

Nor is there any word (in that document) that states they do not consider gear or cosmetics grind as a grind or that it would not fit in there no grind philosophy.

Also this thread was created based on the no grind being talked about again during the announcement of HoT (where it was mentioned more in the context of doing something only once on your account instead of once per character, not leveling as there is no increase in level cap with HoT).

But seriously, are you now saying Colin is wrong?

However, again it’s not really relevant. It’s great Colin did clear up what they meant with their ‘no grind philosophy’ but that does not mean peoples complains about grind (that might not be the type of grind that Anet tries to prevent because of their ‘no grind philosophy’) is not valid. It still is. They have something in the game they dislike so they rightfully so talk about it on the forum hoping Anet will do something about it.

Blade Syphon.4325:

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

See, this is the part of your quote that kind of rubbed me the wrong way, and kind of makes it seem that you’re either a bit jaded in how you see the game, or simply don’t want to actually admit to the fact that, yes, grinding Ascended Armor is just that, a grind.

You’re absolutely right, you don’t NEED to farm World Bosses, Champions, and Jumping Puzzles to get the drops that come from them…But then what are your other options then? Wait a month to get stuff from the Monthly Reward Track? Grind PvP Reward Tracks for them?

The other options are there, but they are so mind numbingly slow by comparison, that people feel obligated to farm the same Champion Train, World Boss rotation, and quick Jumping Puzzles to get the materials you need for your Ascended Armor, and that by it’s very definition goes totally against what you just tried to say.

I don’t have to kill the same World Boss each day for a hope at getting a piece of Ascended Armor, but I certainly did need to kill them each day back when I was working on it to get the Dragonite Ore needed to make the Ingots, just as I needed to the same for Empyreal Fragments and Bloodstone Dust.

Saying “You can do it in multiple ways doesn’t make it a grind” doesn’t work, when those multiple ways are either so unrewarding as to not be worth doing, or simply doing the same content each day to get the same rewards.

Honestly, if you really want to stand by the mantra of “You don’t need to grind to get Ascended Armor”, then there should actually be ways players can get the armor outside of crafting or paying to RNGesus that they get an Ascended Chest that has the armor type they need. Take a page out of your competitors, and let players by armor through Laurels, or offer more inventive ways to get the Armor though long quest lines or what not.

Because right now, yes, getting Ascended Armor is either a very expensive endeavor, or a very long grind of doing the same mundane tasks to get the materials needed to make the armor. Hiding behind the arugment of “But we have more then one way to get those materials” doesn’t work either, as like I said before those other methods are either just as repetitive (replacing World Boss grinding with Guild Mission grinding for Dragonite Ore, as an example) or so unrewarding (PvP Tracks), that there’s very little reason to actually do it.

So why do it if it there’s very little reason to do so? Ascended armor is a 5% boost. That’s it. The only reason you could ever need it is if you’re doing ultra high level fractals and you need the agony resist. That’s it.

Why not just play the game, take your time and make a piece when you can? Why frustrate yourself?

Because I said it many times and I’ll say it again. Want, not need, forces self imposed grind.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

captainteemo.6537:

`

~

~

~

The argument doesn’t work on you because you’ve already made up your mind. To people who haven’t made up their mind, they can make up their own minds whether my argument is sound.

You don’t get to define grind your way. You don’t get to make up your own definitions. In any statement using a word with multiple definitions, it’s the speaker who defines how he’s using the word. If people after that want to use the word differently and then call that speaker a liar, well, that’s their own affair. I don’t think it’s right and I’ll never think it’s right.

So yes, by your definition there is grind in this game. But since the original statements weren’t using your definition, I don’t see the relevance of your statement.

The manifesto, where all this started, never mentioned gear in the paragraph about grind. It never mentioned gold. It mentioned combat.

You want to go off in a different direction and talk about other stuff go ahead. But don’t try to pretend it’s reasonable.

Yes I agree with you. Your definition of grind, as used by you, is in the game. But it’s not the only definition of grind and it’s not the definition of grind as implied by the words of the manifesto.

Again, if you can see anything in that paragraph about gear or about gold or about vertical progression, I’d love to see it.

No one can produce that evidence because it doesn’t exist. I’m using the actual words of the manifesto, to which Anet referred.

You’re using another definition, which may not be empirically wrong, but it’s misleading when taken with what Anet said.

“You don’t get to define grind your way.”

Uhhm, you are the person here trying to define grind and define what Anet was talking about in an attempt to disprove or proof something people are saying. Not me.

I just talk about the grind me and other people experience. Besides, also Colin confirmed in this thread that there is the type of grind I talk about in GW2 (and so in the process of doing so showing also he does also define that as grind). It was just not on their ‘no grind philosophy’ list of the type of grind they wanted to prevent.

“It’s the speaker who defines how he’s using the word. If people after that want to use the word differently and then call that speaker a liar, well, that’s their own affair” Isn’t that exactly what you are doing? Where exactly did I do that?

“But since the original statements weren’t using your definition, I don’t see the relevance of your statement.” To what ‘original statements’ are you referring? You mean captainteemo’s statement? He said “You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. ~, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.”, that is clearly a statement to everybody here saying there is a lot of grind.. So that’s also me. He does not say ‘people complaining about gear grind’ or something along those lines. No he says ‘you guys’ and refers very generally to ‘grind’ so that fully applies to me and so also to my definition of grind. Maybe he didn’t oversee that there are also other forms of grind then the one he sees or cares about in games but that’s then on his behalf. The way he said it, it was addresses at everybody talking about the bad grind and that includes me so that makes my definition relevant. While it might not be the grind he did talk about of simply forgot about this grind.

“The manifesto, where all this started, never mentioned gear in the paragraph about grind. It never mentioned gold. It mentioned combat.” So wait, with “original statements” you where referring to the manifesto? Again it’s still irrelevant even if the manifesto would not mention grind at all. People find the game grindy (also explaining what they find so grindy) so complain about it. No matter what the manifesto said.

“But it’s not the only definition of grind and it’s not the definition of grind as implied by the words of the manifesto.” What would be relevant if I would say “this grind is bad BECAUSE the manifesto says it’s not there.” However I don’t. I (and other with me) say it’s bad, that’s it.

“You’re using another definition, which may not be empirically wrong, but it’s misleading when taken with what Anet said.” Again.. What I don’t do! I say it’s bad, my point is, that it’s bad. My point is not Anet promised it would not be there. That was at best an additional reason for people to be mad about it but in the end it’s irrelevant for people disliking the grind.

Vayne.8563:

If you don’t agree, it doesn’t change anything. There’s not a single word in that paragraph about gear. Not one.

And? There’s not a single word about levelling. Not one.

In fact, in the document from four years ago, ArenaNet said “Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward”.

Not to mention how Colin confirmed in this topic that they never meant grind as just levelling.

Which has always been obvious, really. It’s good to have confirmation so those saying otherwise can be proved wrong.

Vayne.8563:

You don’t get to define grind your way. You don’t get to make up your own definitions. In any statement using a word with multiple definitions, it’s the speaker who defines how he’s using the word.

Exactly. The definition that “grind = levelling” has always been part of Vayne’s little world and little else. ArenaNet has never meant grind in such a way, as Colin described in this topic. Ergo, since the speaker on the Manifesto was ArenaNet, not Vayne… Your own definition of grind is irrelevant (not to mention flawed).

Conncept.7638:

Just ask TTS how many people they bring along in exotic gear to their triwurm, tequatl, and vinewraith runs, the answer you will get is absolutely none. Be in BiS gear, or don’t show up.

Not actually commenting on the no-grind part of this conversation… but as someone in TTS who has done Teq and Triwurm with them, in both zerg and reflect… I’ve never seen a gear check even called for, other than if you’re in condi or reflect, needing a certain type of weapon or trait setup (you know… so you can do the thing you’re in that team for). The character I bring is in full orange, since most of my ascended is on a different character.

So, whatever your actual point may be, don’t use fake information to try and validate it.

I find this whole back and forth argument about the definition of grind to be both funny and a little sad; it’s nearly irrelevant and it will NEVER make anybody feel better.

What I said back on page seven stands. I have my own subjective experience of this game, and regardless of whether I use the word ‘grind’ to express that concept or some other word that might conceptually meet with Vayne’s approval, what I am saying is that I am having a problem that makes me not enjoy GW2.

I am having a problem that makes me not enjoy GW2. It is related to the amount of ‘work’ I have to do in game that infringes on my enjoyment of the game. That’s what matters here, and I hope Anet is wise enough to listen to that and not to bandy definitions around.

Arguing definitions is the weakest, most self-servingly soppy defense tactic. It solves nothing. Problems exist even if you try to make them not by redefining words.

ColinJohanson.2394:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

Awesome. Please explain how I can get my hands on 1500 silk scraps without grinding so that I can craft my next ascended piece. Or about five times that for the full set. Keep in mind that my bank account is currently weighing in at 21 gold. That’s not even enough to purchase the required silk for a single piece from the TP right now.

I thought that maxing my crafting would be the limiting factor, but boy was I in for a shock! If providing a grind-free experience is the intent, then the game is currently failing at it.

This is what I mean when I talk about grind.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=daily+grind

I don’t rightly care about the definition Anet applies because they’ve got every incentive to make sure that their operant definition falls one hair of technicality away from what most of what they have in the game to do is.

‘Oh, you don’t have to grind to be level 80 and have great gear!’ – Technically true. In functional reality? It isn’t going to FEEL very true to a good few for reasons various and sundry.

How things feel – the tactile experience of a system – is all that really winds up mattering to the person sitting in front of any screen upon which GW2 is playing. Most peoples’ sensations of when something starts to feel like grindy work won’t be exactly the same, and for some it will vary so extremely as to scarcely seem like the same discussion at all were they to engage upon it.

Anet has to draw a line somewhere and arbitrarily fabricate; yes, I said it, fabricate; an artificial operant definition of grind. This they have done, and nobody’ll ever find me taking shots at them for trying.

Their definition and how they approach it, however, leaves me smirking in that unamusedly wry fashion of one that knows what you’re doing there and isn’t buying the innocent look on your face.

They get an ‘E’ for effort on this one, but if we’re going to split hairs about it like we’re conniving boys trying to wheedle our way under our date’s prom dress, I’m disinterested in having the conversation at all.

If I find it tedious, repetitive and boring, I’m gonna call it grind. If its technical name in the old latin as set forth by the American Gaming Terminoloy Association in 1889 is Farming, I really don’t care, and all the Doctor Hairsplitter Ph.Dorks can take this job and shove it.

I ain’t here to work. If the thing feels like its trying to make me work a new job to get the fancy thing they put at the end of their latest Build-A-Yellow-Brick-Road, there’s a very good chance I ain’t gonna do it.

And I really don’t care what anyone else thinks. Call me lazy and I’ll take a look around my lovely home, at all my career achievements, at my education and my family and know that very little in my life is the reward that comes to a lazy man.

If I have to start making excuses for the game I’d like to love with the same desperate, twisted, reaching and graspingly pathetic sojourn into ever-the-less credible extremity as an abuse victim defending their abuser, I ain’t gonna play that game anymore.

GW2’s been pretty decent so far, for where I keep my lines. They really picked a fight with the chiefest of my personal lines with what their trait locking rubbish, but that didn’t have much impact on my ability to enjoy my pre-alt-cataclysm chars just fine.

Their NPE is weird and feels to me like it was designed by someone that had never played GW2 and never intended to attempt to.

Getting legendaries has always been a bewildering list of boring chores from my angle of perception, and I’ve baffled every time I’ve seriously thought about why they implemented the legendary system in what seems to me to be the most inelegantly fun-destroying way possible.

It encapsulates everything I feel to be wrong about this game, because getting a legendary has you either farming mats or farming gold to outright buy one.

There is no story involved. There is no RPG experience even remotely associated with it. There isn’t even one whiff of a story blurb associated with the final products.

You undergo your Tedium Test and, if you can endure the sheer monotony long enough, you get this (imo) ridiculous to outlandishly fugly object that makes obnoxious noises or looks like Hasbro might file a copyright infringement suit over it.

Some people apparently enjoy the process, or are at least willing to endure it at the mere thought that they’ll then have status and prestige that will somehow set them apart.

And that’s how Anet ‘hides’ its grind – they make it optional and define grind as something you have to do in order to function. Their toes are right on the line of technicality.

So, as said, they get an ‘E’ for effort on this one, but I’m not fooled, and I really don’t care what their operant definition is. I’m not gonna do what feels like tedious work to me and if they make too much of what I want to get or do be walled behind too much of what I regard as being tedious work?

I’ll move on to some other game. There won’t be any indignant forum posts if ever that day comes, and nobody’ll get to have my stuff.

They get an ‘E’ for effort on this one, but if we’re going to split hairs about it like we’re conniving boys trying to wheedle our way under our date’s prom dress, I’m disinterested in having the conversation at all.

SNORT.

Oh my god, thank you for making my day. Yes, you said what I wanted to say with all the comedic vitriol it deserved. I’d buy you a beer, dude.

Lheimroo.2947:

I find this whole back and forth argument about the definition of grind to be both funny and a little sad; it’s nearly irrelevant and it will NEVER make anybody feel better.

What I said back on page seven stands. I have my own subjective experience of this game, and regardless of whether I use the word ‘grind’ to express that concept or some other word that might conceptually meet with Vayne’s approval, what I am saying is that I am having a problem that makes me not enjoy GW2.

I am having a problem that makes me not enjoy GW2. It is related to the amount of ‘work’ I have to do in game that infringes on my enjoyment of the game. That’s what matters here, and I hope Anet is wise enough to listen to that and not to bandy definitions around.

Arguing definitions is the weakest, most self-servingly soppy defense tactic. It solves nothing. Problems exist even if you try to make them not by redefining words.

That is exactly what I did try to explain to Vayne’s but like always I need many more words for it then other people do. Hope your short but to the point explanation makes it more clear for Vayne.

Also the discussion I have with him is not so much to define grind as like I said before and you said here is completely relevant. But what bugs me (and so why I go in a discussion with him) is that he is trying to use this definition of grind conversation basically in a way to dismiss what people have to say about it. As if the definition was relevant.

I also don’t plan on going on with that discussion with him, if he still does not get it, so be it.

@naiasonod.
Accept for the idea that Legendary’s look uhhm well as you said and the hate for cataclysm (They added some nice fun to get (grind free) cosmetics in that expansion). I do agree with the rest.

This game has so many good things but somehow for every positive thing they also did something bad.

- Make a game based on cosmetics: Love it! Make getting those cosmetics the worse grind I did ever see.. Noo. Why! (I know why, they monetize that part of the game).

What brings me to the second part:
- Release the game as B2P: Love it. No stupid cash-shop influence, no monthly fee and as they need to earn money it means many expansions to keep the game interesting for years to come.. Oow wait forget about all that, focus on the cash-shop creating the same negatives as all those F2P game.. Noo. Why?

- Introducing events to make the world more alive and making the you feel like you make a difference and no ’’ kill X of y): Love it (except that I never believed the second part). Remove the quest that in fact give more the feeling of making a difference then the events do (still loving the events for making the world feel alive), having the events being the being kill X for Y while missing the interesting quest and quest chains that send you all over the world and the fun way they can give you a reward with a story attached to the reward. Why?

- Making a beautiful where there are hidden areas you can discover: Love it! Add hearths, PoI, Vista’s and Waypoints you have to unlock for map completion what is important for creating the main goal in the game a legendary. Resulting in world exploration not being interesting exploration but having it be a boring checklist you are checking of.. Nooo Why?

- Going for an open world: Love it! Making all maps instances, putting in way-points making your experiencing not an open world and the joy of riding / walking into a new map having in stead of this open world feeling more the feeling of separated things linked with loading screens.

If all of the above (and grind being like number one on my list) would have been the positive GW2 approach but without the negative GW2 approach they seem to have coming with every positive GW2 approach this game would have easily been the best MMO on the market.

I still enjoy the game for other things but if I look at this list I keep asking myself… Yes I love it…. Nooo… Why???

Bernie.8674:

ColinJohanson.2394:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

Awesome. Please explain how I can get my hands on 1500 silk scraps without grinding so that I can craft my next ascended piece. Or about five times that for the full set. Keep in mind that my bank account is currently weighing in at 21 gold. That’s not even enough to purchase the required silk for a single piece from the TP right now.

I thought that maxing my crafting would be the limiting factor, but boy was I in for a shock! If providing a grind-free experience is the intent, then the game is currently failing at it.

haha wait for grinding all them mats/gold for Mighty Infusions

I gigle every time when I read how is farming gold and mats for MONTHS in GW2 so much better than “grind” in other games. Like really

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Well, you did say “absolutely”, so we’re both exceptions to the absolute.

Fair enough, pardon the extremity of my statement.

But the point is they don’t look or hope for exotics, they look for ascended, and it’s completely understandable given ANets borked system. As much as we like to deny it (I don’t have ascended gear either) that ascended gear, even though it only amounts to a 10% or lower increase in stats, when spread over hundreds of players, makes a massive difference between success or failure of the abovementioned events.

Well well. I’m glad there has been an official response. A response that falls flat onto it’s own face.

By their definition they avoid grind by presenting multiple ways to get the same thing. I suppose this is true. All areas of the game will earn you gold (although some are more effective than others and this imbalance is an issue), and even if what you do will not get you the key ingredients you need, you can buy it instead.

Unless, of course, these key ingredients are account bound and can not be bought off the TP in which case you have no choice.

However, all of the above is moot because of one simple truth. The “statistical best in slot gear” can only be obtained via crafting. Sorry but depending on the obscenely low drop rate with an even lower chance at getting the specific item you need (dagger, medium armor chest, etc.) and with an even lower chance that it’ll have the stat combo you need doesn’t count. It is far too rare and unpredictable to matter. It’s inconsequential.

So where is the choice?

naiasonod.9265:

captainteemo.6537:

After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.

Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.

There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.