Guild Wars 2

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

Eh. I’m going sour on the whole MMO market. Show me a single player game that subjects it’s players to either periodic bi-or-tri-yearly grinds or single mountain-like grinds. They don’t exist, and they’d get savaged by critics and players alike if they tried.

Oh they exist heard of Skyrim, but why does no one complain? simple we can without discrimination or recrimination cheat, if I want a billion gold its just a tip toe through to Google and its good as done, we have our fun with them and move on.

Devata.6589:

I am pointing to that story for two years. I never forget it in the fog. And if you don’t like it, why support it because by buying you wait out of the grind you support the grind. Spend your money on expansions, buy expensive collectors edition if you want to support the game but don’t buy your way out of the grind because that way you only hurt the game.

I look at that differently, in the end I’m hurting myself so here is my calculation;

Life is finite, mine being half over at 40 time is at a premium and every hour wasted mashing a mouse button for a virtual achievement which doesn’t really exist other than a graphical representation on my screen and a collection of finely adjusted atoms on AreanNet’s hard drive database, is time wasted. Life should not be wasted doing frivolous tasks that in the end amount to ‘work’ not ‘play’.

So you don’t look at it any different. Your comment is a long version of telling you don’t like grind and should not grind. The thing I say is,.. don’t support it. If enough people won’t support it, it will go away. As long as people support it, it will continue to come and will only get worse.

Besides, you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting all the players. (Well of course not you personally but as a group of people who support the grind by buying their way out of it)

DavidH.7380:

I agree with you about this being a factor in how people look at the issue. I’m kind of the opposite side of the coin from you. I came to GW2 specifically because I was looking for an MMO that wouldn’t keep moving the goalposts on me every time I made any progress. For a while, the whole idea that the other games would move on without me if I didn’t play was motivating, but then it just began to seem like a pointless and endless treadmill just to try not to get left behind.

SWTOR at least in its latest expansion made it very easy to catch up.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

…I don’t see ascended CRAFT especially grindy – most of materials needed for it drops EVERYWHERE – the only issue of it it limit of one ecto refine of each type per day – but that have nothing to do with grind – you have materials you are just required to wait and can do other stuff meanwhile….

The ascended light armor set requires 36 bolts of damask which means you have to collect 10800(!!) silk scraps. Of course you can buy the damask. At 12g each you need to grind around 430 gold. All of that is pure grind!

The “Light of Dwayna” requires 4500 scraps of silk. I got down to only a few silvers three times in order to get that item. I went down to only a few silvers three times in order to get the silk. Just that ONE item required for the crafting cost that much. The grind was so kitten and boring I nearly quit playing the game entirely! ANet nearly lost a customer because of their kittenty decision with the amount of silk required.

morrolan.9608:

DavidH.7380:

I agree with you about this being a factor in how people look at the issue. I’m kind of the opposite side of the coin from you. I came to GW2 specifically because I was looking for an MMO that wouldn’t keep moving the goalposts on me every time I made any progress. For a while, the whole idea that the other games would move on without me if I didn’t play was motivating, but then it just began to seem like a pointless and endless treadmill just to try not to get left behind.

SWTOR at least in its latest expansion made it very easy to catch up.

Could you please PM me what they did to achieve that. I might have to play that game more.

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

Eh. I’m going sour on the whole MMO market. Show me a single player game that subjects it’s players to either periodic bi-or-tri-yearly grinds or single mountain-like grinds. They don’t exist, and they’d get savaged by critics and players alike if they tried.

Oh they exist heard of Skyrim, but why does no one complain? simple we can without discrimination or recrimination cheat, if I want a billion gold its just a tip toe through to Google and its good as done, we have our fun with them and move on.

Devata.6589:

I am pointing to that story for two years. I never forget it in the fog. And if you don’t like it, why support it because by buying you wait out of the grind you support the grind. Spend your money on expansions, buy expensive collectors edition if you want to support the game but don’t buy your way out of the grind because that way you only hurt the game.

I look at that differently, in the end I’m hurting myself so here is my calculation;

Life is finite, mine being half over at 40 time is at a premium and every hour wasted mashing a mouse button for a virtual achievement which doesn’t really exist other than a graphical representation on my screen and a collection of finely adjusted atoms on AreanNet’s hard drive database, is time wasted. Life should not be wasted doing frivolous tasks that in the end amount to ‘work’ not ‘play’.

So you don’t look at it any different. Your comment is a long version of telling you don’t like grind and should not grind. The thing I say is,.. don’t support it. If enough people won’t support it, it will go away. As long as people support it, it will continue to come and will only get worse.

Besides, you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting all the players. (Well of course not you personally but as a group of people who support the grind by buying their way out of it)

My efforts as singularity are meaningless, it would require a large chunk of players in order for that to have any effect at all, and even then it’s ArenaNet’s game they can run it how they choose too at the end of the day for all the love & care they give there community the brass tacks of it is they have to make money period.

Those crafting sites on the net should be also displaying how many gems you’d have to buy for each item and how much in real world cash it would cost you, then I’d think we’d have some sort of evaluation in which to have a better argument.

Add back all the interesting questing mechanics. Questing is boring as kitten now without them. What the kitten Colin?!

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

Eh. I’m going sour on the whole MMO market. Show me a single player game that subjects it’s players to either periodic bi-or-tri-yearly grinds or single mountain-like grinds. They don’t exist, and they’d get savaged by critics and players alike if they tried.

Oh they exist heard of Skyrim, but why does no one complain? simple we can without discrimination or recrimination cheat, if I want a billion gold its just a tip toe through to Google and its good as done, we have our fun with them and move on.

Devata.6589:

I am pointing to that story for two years. I never forget it in the fog. And if you don’t like it, why support it because by buying you wait out of the grind you support the grind. Spend your money on expansions, buy expensive collectors edition if you want to support the game but don’t buy your way out of the grind because that way you only hurt the game.

I look at that differently, in the end I’m hurting myself so here is my calculation;

Life is finite, mine being half over at 40 time is at a premium and every hour wasted mashing a mouse button for a virtual achievement which doesn’t really exist other than a graphical representation on my screen and a collection of finely adjusted atoms on AreanNet’s hard drive database, is time wasted. Life should not be wasted doing frivolous tasks that in the end amount to ‘work’ not ‘play’.

So you don’t look at it any different. Your comment is a long version of telling you don’t like grind and should not grind. The thing I say is,.. don’t support it. If enough people won’t support it, it will go away. As long as people support it, it will continue to come and will only get worse.

Besides, you are not only hurting yourself, you are hurting all the players. (Well of course not you personally but as a group of people who support the grind by buying their way out of it)

My efforts as singularity are meaningless, it would require a large chunk of players in order for that to have any effect at all, and even then it’s ArenaNet’s game they can run it how they choose too at the end of the day for all the love & care they give there community the brass tacks of it is they have to make money period.

Those crafting sites on the net should be also displaying how many gems you’d have to buy for each item and how much in real world cash it would cost you, then I’d think we’d have some sort of evaluation in which to have a better argument.

Like I said, not you personal but you as a group. If all you individuals would not support the grind the group would likely be big enough.

Yes they need to make money, thats exactly why they can’t just run the their game as they want if that system does not earn them enough. I would still prefer the B2P model with regular expansion over this current model.

In time it’s likely cheaper to use real money then game-time if that is what you mean. While not a perfect comparison because at the moments you are gaming you would likely not be working / making money anyway, also if you were not gaming.

Photonman.6241:

Add back all the interesting questing mechanics. Questing is boring as kitten now without them. What the kitten Colin?!

You mean like the more traditional quest? Yeah I am in favor of them. Not the kill x of y but the nice interesting quest chains. I also want to know about the NPC’s in this world. In fact I care more about those small stories then the big story.

Dynamic events are great to make the world feel more alive. But they don’t feel like you make a difference because they keep repeating while with a quest, if you helped a guy, you helped him.. something changed.

So a mix of both would be great I think (even since I played back in beta) and they do fit into the no grind discussion as they are very suited for rewarding specific rewards linked to them, even telling a little story about the item you get rewarded.

As long as you will not need to complete all the quests to get map-completion or anything along those lines.

morrolan.9608:

Obtena.7952:

People aren’t recognizing that this is one reason why GW2 does as well as it does. Relative to other games, it’s grind is very low. Therefore it attracts a good portion of the market.

Its already been said in this thread that WoW has less grind, SWTOR is similar to WOW and has less grind as does ESO. So comparative to others Western MMOs its grind is not low.

That’s a nice story. I can attest that from my own experience SWTOR does NOT have less grind that GW2 because SWTOR requires me to have certain tiers of gear to successfully complete much of the PVE content or compete in PVP. Furthermore, that gear isn’t just thrown at you .. it is, by definition, a grind to get it; repeated content to get gear or tokens from raid drops. Nothing is more grindy than that. GW2 does not do that to me, EVER. I can access almost everything this game has to offer with my ascended trinkets and exotic loadout and complete it successfully or compete with that in WvW. The BiS gear in this game does not differentiate more than the players skill.

I can only speak to what I have hear on WoW, which is that it’s KNOWN for it’s grind, though I have never personally experienced it.

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

…I don’t see ascended CRAFT especially grindy – most of materials needed for it drops EVERYWHERE – the only issue of it it limit of one ecto refine of each type per day – but that have nothing to do with grind – you have materials you are just required to wait and can do other stuff meanwhile….

The ascended light armor set requires 36 bolts of damask which means you have to collect 10800(!!) silk scraps. Of course you can buy the damask. At 12g each you need to grind around 430 gold. All of that is pure grind!

The “Light of Dwayna” requires 4500 scraps of silk. I got down to only a few silvers three times in order to get that item. I went down to only a few silvers three times in order to get the silk. Just that ONE item required for the crafting cost that much. The grind was so kitten and boring I nearly quit playing the game entirely! ANet nearly lost a customer because of their kittenty decision with the amount of silk required.

This. This right here is the world’s perfect example. The game has been out 2.5 years. An expansion is coming that does nothing to raise the cap or negate your gear. That’ll probably be around for let’s say, 1-2 years.

So at the minimum, you have/had 3.5 years to get silk enough to craft it. Silk drops like candy. After a week of playing I’ll have 500 in my bank. Just by playing the game however I want.

Not to mention the item isn’t anything you need. It’s just a special cosmetic that you want.

So, once again. “Grind” in this game is only caused by self-inflicted want that you don’t have the willpower to control.

/thread

No one has to grind in this game. And no one NEEDS ascended gear.

But if you WANT to grind, there are plenty of grind opportunities that don’t take away playability from people who don’t.

No grind necessary, but plenty of grind if you want it!

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

Mo Mo.1947:

No one has to grind in this game. And no one NEEDS ascended gear.

But if you WANT to grind, there are plenty of grind opportunities that don’t take away playability from people who don’t.

No grind necessary, but plenty of grind if you want it!

Yep—just buy the game, install it and then never play—-that’s the ONLY way to avoid the grind unless you just use the credit card, buy hundreds of $$$ of gems every other week. Its there if you really want it

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

Seems to me that WoW got more popular when it dropped grind and eased barriers to entry to raids, and that it got less popular when it added grind and raised barriers to play. Seems to me that that’s the formula for the whole market, in fact.

Close so very close its actually grind vs money, subject player(s) to an increased volume of grind and the player(s) will either choose the grind or pay money to escape said grind (me being one of those people), get the balance just right and you’ll get comments like what we see here, and the actual real story gets forgotten in the fog.

I am pointing to that story for two years. I never forget it in the fog. And if you don’t like it, why support it because by buying your way out of the grind you support the grind. Spend your money on expansions, buy expensive collectors edition if you want to support the game but don’t buy your way out of the grind because that way you only hurt the game.

However I think it’s still great you know this from yourself and are openly telling that here. Other people would try to even fool themselves talking about wanting to support the game and bla bla. Even going as far as there is no grind, the grind they buy themselves out of.

So point for you on that part however I would still suggest working on the first part.

@ Vayne Did you read that?

And this:

NiBlack.3149:

NiBlack.3149:

As person who just began ascended crafting I don’t mind “some” grind. Honestly the only issue with ascended crafting I have with cloth and probably later with leather.

I’m sort in the same boat as you, I will say this if it wasn’t for my (Credit Card) I highly doubt I would have gotten my currently 1 and only 500 ranked crafting to that point, even maxing 7 characters to 80 salvaging everything that lands in my inventory, I’m still left with resorting to my credit card.

?

So maybe it’s not a blind hate, that cash-shop focus dislike of me (as you suggested). Maybe I am not making excuses simply because of my dislike, but what I am saying is simply reality and the dislike is born out of that reality? These people at least seems to proof the grind works for the cash-shop focus. And so is it that hard to think the grind in there because of this reason?

But that would of course made all my statements about this well-founded.

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

More to the point, I have a boatload of other characters who don’t have a single piece of ascended gear…well maybe rings from fractals that I’ve done but that’s it, and none of those characters are excluded from content.

That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.

You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it, but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.

You have an opinion and it’s a strong one and everything is jaded based on that opinion. I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model. That’s the worst kind of science.

Stark.1350:

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

…I don’t see ascended CRAFT especially grindy – most of materials needed for it drops EVERYWHERE – the only issue of it it limit of one ecto refine of each type per day – but that have nothing to do with grind – you have materials you are just required to wait and can do other stuff meanwhile….

The ascended light armor set requires 36 bolts of damask which means you have to collect 10800(!!) silk scraps. Of course you can buy the damask. At 12g each you need to grind around 430 gold. All of that is pure grind!

The “Light of Dwayna” requires 4500 scraps of silk. I got down to only a few silvers three times in order to get that item. I went down to only a few silvers three times in order to get the silk. Just that ONE item required for the crafting cost that much. The grind was so kitten and boring I nearly quit playing the game entirely! ANet nearly lost a customer because of their kittenty decision with the amount of silk required.

This. This right here is the world’s perfect example. The game has been out 2.5 years. An expansion is coming that does nothing to raise the cap or negate your gear. That’ll probably be around for let’s say, 1-2 years.

So at the minimum, you have/had 3.5 years to get silk enough to craft it. Silk drops like candy. After a week of playing I’ll have 500 in my bank. Just by playing the game however I want.

Not to mention the item isn’t anything you need. It’s just a special cosmetic that you want.

So, once again. “Grind” in this game is only caused by self-inflicted want that you don’t have the willpower to control.

/thread

It’s always funny if people end a statement with something like /thread. Seems like they think their statement is so strong it completely destroys everything that has been said and so the thread can be closed.

But you still simply don’t get it. For those who ‘self-inflict’ the grind (that we know a lot of people do because all the grinding going on GW2 (based on that alone you can consider the game grindy)) it is because most of the stuff they want in this game they can only get (in a viable way) by grinding gold for it. Others might not self-inflict the grind, but that means the whole experience of collecting such items is removed from the game for them.

That is why the grind, or the need to grind IF you want to go for those things, is bad for the game. You can not in a fun (or less grindy) way directly work towards most of those items, and this being a game that should be the case. It would not have to be easy but there should be a better way then grinding… And buying is not playing!

The game maybe makes people self-inflict ´optional´ grind because it’s the only viable way. But in the end, grind is grind and there is no real good in-game alternative for this grind and that is bad.

Is it funny if I do:

“/thread^2”?

Zenith.7301:

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

like pretty much everything in any other MMO ever

Brahmincorle.1264:

Zenith.7301:

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

like pretty much everything in any other MMO ever

Really? I was unaware of raidwide auras that tick for a % of your health if you havent grinded hundreds of gold worth of gear and infusions.

Zenith.7301:

Brahmincorle.1264:

Zenith.7301:

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

like pretty much everything in any other MMO ever

Really? I was unaware of raidwide auras that tick for a % of your health if you havent grinded hundreds of gold worth of gear and infusions.

dude it was ironic post complementing your ironic post, I agree with you

Isn’t it ironic how white knights on this forum and even some devs point fingers at other games and their grind but call their own horendous grind “optional”? I lol’d so much on some posts in this thred

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

~

~

~

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

More to the point, I have a boatload of other characters who don’t have a single piece of ascended gear…well maybe rings from fractals that I’ve done but that’s it, and none of those characters are excluded from content.

That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.

You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it, but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.

You have an opinion and it’s a strong one and everything is jaded based on that opinion. I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model. That’s the worst kind of science.

“~Stuff about ascended gear~
That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.”

Uhhm no I don’t refuse that. For me it’s about cosmetics. I couldn’t care less about BiS gear. That’s likely why those other games where never a grind for me.

“You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it”
No, Vayne, the other way around. There are a few things I dislike and I ‘well-founded’ blame (mainly) one aspect of the game for most of those things. This is also where the `Well-founded or not” part is kinda important.. the part you try to dismiss before starting the rest of your comment.

“but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.”
Come on Vayne, how many times did I not already acknowledge that in this thread??
I could start quoting them all but I would suggest you go and read back.

I do acknowledge that, I also say that it’s mainly depending on what part of the game you focus / what game-play you prefer. (next to how well you can tolerate the grind)
For example you are now talking about ascended stuff, so BiS gear. Maybe that part is grindy in WoW and I so do acknowledge that people who prefer that sort of stuff might then find WoW more grindy as GW2.

I really couldn’t say much about that because as I don’t care even a little bit for BiS stuff, I never tried to get it in WoW and have also not been trying to get it in GW2 so I can’t compare it.

What I prefer is the hunt for cosmetics, toys, mini’s, mounts, finishers and all that sort of fun items. I did try to go for those things in both games (as far as they exist in the games) and had fun doing that in WoW, it sometimes was some farming for one item, other where challenging but the total experience was never a grind, in fact it was a lot of fun.
In GW2 on the other hand the only real way to get most of these items is grinding gold and I never really could set myself to do that. I have been ask by friends to come along when they where grinding but 10 min in I was gone. (one exception ever, guess I had a strange day).

So it’s completely possible that some people think GW2 is more grindy and others think another MMO is more grindy. It really depends on what you are most interested in and I acknowledge this fact for much longer as this thread exists.

“I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model.” Again, it’s just the other way around.

I do wonder, if I was not arguing mainly about only a few issues (The fact that you are now trying to use to discredit my comments you seemingly can’t argue against in another way) but I would complain about a lot, would you then try to discredit my comments by saying I did just argue for the sake of arguing because I complained about so many things and so I could not be unbiased?

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

~

~

~

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

More to the point, I have a boatload of other characters who don’t have a single piece of ascended gear…well maybe rings from fractals that I’ve done but that’s it, and none of those characters are excluded from content.

That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.

You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it, but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.

You have an opinion and it’s a strong one and everything is jaded based on that opinion. I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model. That’s the worst kind of science.

“~Stuff about ascended gear~
That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.”

Uhhm no I don’t refuse that. For me it’s about cosmetics. I couldn’t care less about BiS gear. That’s likely why those other games where never a grind for me.

“You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it”
No, Vayne, the other way around. There are a few things I dislike and I ‘well-founded’ blame (mainly) one aspect of the game for most of those things. This is also where the `Well-founded or not” part is kinda important.. the part you try to dismiss before starting the rest of your comment.

“but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.”
Come on Vayne, how many times did I not already acknowledge that in this thread??
I could start quoting them all but I would suggest you go and read back.

I do acknowledge that, I also say that it’s mainly depending on what part of the game you focus / what game-play you prefer. (next to how well you can tolerate the grind)
For example you are now talking about ascended stuff, so BiS gear. Maybe that part is grindy in WoW and I so do acknowledge that people who prefer that sort of stuff might then find WoW more grindy as GW2.

I really couldn’t say much about that because as I don’t care even a little bit for BiS stuff, I never tried to get it in WoW and have also not been trying to get it in GW2 so I can’t compare it.

What I prefer is the hunt for cosmetics, toys, mini’s, mounts, finishers and all that sort of fun items. I did try to go for those things in both games (as far as they exist in the games) and had fun doing that in WoW, it sometimes was some farming for one item, other where challenging but the total experience was never a grind, in fact it was a lot of fun.
In GW2 on the other hand the only real way to get most of these items is grinding gold and I never really could set myself to do that. I have been ask by friends to come along when they where grinding but 10 min in I was gone. (one exception ever, guess I had a strange day).

So it’s completely possible that some people think GW2 is more grindy and others think another MMO is more grindy. It really depends on what you are most interested in and I acknowledge this fact for much longer as this thread exists.

“I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model.” Again, it’s just the other way around.

I do wonder, if I was not arguing mainly about only a few issues (The fact that you are now trying to use to discredit my comments you seemingly can’t argue against in another way) but I would complain about a lot, would you then try to discredit my comments by saying I did just argue for the sake of arguing because I complained about so many things and so I could not be unbiased?

Guild Wars has always had grind for cosmetics. It was always supposed to. I don’t see why you can’t recognize that.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

~

~

~

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

More to the point, I have a boatload of other characters who don’t have a single piece of ascended gear…well maybe rings from fractals that I’ve done but that’s it, and none of those characters are excluded from content.

That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.

You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it, but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.

You have an opinion and it’s a strong one and everything is jaded based on that opinion. I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model. That’s the worst kind of science.

~

Guild Wars has always had grind for cosmetics. It was always supposed to. I don’t see why you can’t recognize that.

I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I know GW1 was way more about lore and PvP then cosmetics. Mini’s you mainly got from birthdays and then there where like two sets of prestige armor of what at least one was really grindy?

That would then be similar to only the legendary being a grind in GW2.

Could be wrong but thats what I know about it. I don’t think you can really compare that to how GW2 works. It’s much more an MMO where collecting items is also a more important part of the game. So turning that into a grind is also different then doing that in GW1 I would think.

Then again, I could not really start a discussion with you about GW1 as I simply don’t know enough about it.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

~

~

~

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

More to the point, I have a boatload of other characters who don’t have a single piece of ascended gear…well maybe rings from fractals that I’ve done but that’s it, and none of those characters are excluded from content.

That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.

You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it, but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.

You have an opinion and it’s a strong one and everything is jaded based on that opinion. I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model. That’s the worst kind of science.

~

Guild Wars has always had grind for cosmetics. It was always supposed to. I don’t see why you can’t recognize that.

I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I know GW1 was way more about lore and PvP then cosmetics. Mini’s you mainly got from birthdays and then there where like two sets of armor of what at least one was really grindy?

Could be wrong but thats what I know about it. I don’t think you can really compare that to how GW2 works. It’s much more an MMO where collecting items is also a more important part of the game. So turning that into a grind also different then doing that in GW1 I would think.

Then again, I could not really start a discussion with you about GW1 as I simply don’t know enough about it.

Guild Wars 1 was a grind for cosmetics. Just about everything in that game was about having different look to your armor or weapon.

A basic set of armor costs 10% of the elite armor, but elite armor had the same stats. Exactly the same stats.

The people who came from Guild Wars 1, always expected this cosmetics grind. What we didn’t want was ascended gear, or level cap increases. That’s because we had the same stats from the first game through all the rest of the games. We didn’t want or need more. We didn’t want ascended gear, because it was too hard to get and it remains, in my mind, too hard to get. The only good thing about it to me is that you don’t need it. I don’t feel it adds anything to the game.

There were two sets of armor that was massively hard to get and a boatload of rare weapon skins as well.

I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter. Then even if you did get one as a drop, it might not have been for the stats you wanted anyway.

There were also minis that were so rare, even as rich as I got, I’d never have been able to afford them. The mini polar bear for example, if you wanted to buy it with gold, you’d have to farm endlessly for years.

And you’d have to buy it from another player, because there was no marketplace there. You’d have to stand around kamadan and negotiate to buy or sell anything.

So Guild Wars 2, which had the update model you keep saying is better, still had the same type of grind for cosmetics.

Stark.1350:

So at the minimum, you have/had 3.5 years to get silk enough to craft it. Silk drops like candy. After a week of playing I’ll have 500 in my bank. Just by playing the game however I want.

Please tell me how you want to play, because I play 2+ hours every night and it takes about a month to get a stack. I need to start playing the way you want.

Stark.1350:

Not to mention the item isn’t anything you need. It’s just a special cosmetic that you want.

Ascended gear has significantly better stats than exotic. It’s not just cosmetic.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

~

~

~

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

More to the point, I have a boatload of other characters who don’t have a single piece of ascended gear…well maybe rings from fractals that I’ve done but that’s it, and none of those characters are excluded from content.

That’s the difference that you refuse to acknowledge.

You have one aspect of the game that you can’t stand and you blame everything else for it, but you don’t acknowledge that others, not just me, find other MMOs more grindy than this one.

You have an opinion and it’s a strong one and everything is jaded based on that opinion. I don’t think you could approach this game in an unbiased manner because you’re looking for things to support your dislike of the business model. That’s the worst kind of science.

~

Guild Wars has always had grind for cosmetics. It was always supposed to. I don’t see why you can’t recognize that.

I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I know GW1 was way more about lore and PvP then cosmetics. Mini’s you mainly got from birthdays and then there where like two sets of armor of what at least one was really grindy?

Could be wrong but thats what I know about it. I don’t think you can really compare that to how GW2 works. It’s much more an MMO where collecting items is also a more important part of the game. So turning that into a grind also different then doing that in GW1 I would think.

Then again, I could not really start a discussion with you about GW1 as I simply don’t know enough about it.

Guild Wars 1 was a grind for cosmetics. Just about everything in that game was about having different look to your armor or weapon.

A basic set of armor costs 10% of the elite armor, but elite armor had the same stats. Exactly the same stats.

The people who came from Guild Wars 1, always expected this cosmetics grind. What we didn’t want was ascended gear, or level cap increases. That’s because we had the same stats from the first game through all the rest of the games. We didn’t want or need more. We didn’t want ascended gear, because it was too hard to get and it remains, in my mind, too hard to get. The only good thing about it to me is that you don’t need it. I don’t feel it adds anything to the game.

There were two sets of armor that was massively hard to get and a boatload of rare weapon skins as well.

I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter. Then even if you did get one as a drop, it might not have been for the stats you wanted anyway.

There were also minis that were so rare, even as rich as I got, I’d never have been able to afford them. The mini polar bear for example, if you wanted to buy it with gold, you’d have to farm endlessly for years.

And you’d have to buy it from another player, because there was no marketplace there. You’d have to stand around kamadan and negotiate to buy or sell anything.

So Guild Wars 2, which had the update model you keep saying is better, still had the same type of grind for cosmetics.

“I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter.”

Wait, so you could get it without gold but by directly working for it. Well if they could do that in GW2 I would already be very happy. And then it would be in line with GW1 as well. It sounds like the drop-rate was a little to low (it should be viable to get it) but again I can’t say much about it as I did not play it a lot. Maybe the scepter was equal to the GW2 legendary, I don’t know?

Maybe GW1 had 1 extremely rare (legendary) version of everything (every weapons, 1 armor set and one mini) while the rest was doable. Without knowing that sort of things I sadly can’t really say much about it.

What surprises me is this part: “Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it.” so then you should perfectly understand why I say I don’t want the gold grind but why I want to directly work towards it.

The grind in this game is both optional and mandatory. Why? Because you CAN choose not to aim for anything that requires grinding but that means you’re left with WvWvW, EotM, Conquest and jumping puzzles. That’s it. Everything else from cosmetics and high-end gear to crafting and events require a lot of grinding. Excessive amounts in many cases. Grinding that, by the way, you get punished for through the diminishing returns system.

It’s optional but unless you love 3D platforming or PvP, the game has very little content to offer that’s not locked behind grinding.

Test.8734:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.

Which, ironically, came from the days of P2P games. Without that model, having players coming and going as new (paid) content is released could work. But developers are too used to the old mentality, and grind is just too easy to make, that grind is what we get.

It’s what the player base wants, too. They just do not want to have gear REQUIRED to play the game locked behind 600 hours of game play with drops that are random and need or greed dice rolls etc.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

~

~

~

Well-founded or not, it’s an opinion. I have full ascended items on three characters and I’ll never have to grind on those characters again. Not for gear.

More to the point, I have a boatload of other characters who don’t have a single piece of ascended gear…well maybe rings from fractals that I’ve done but that’s it, and none of those characters are excluded from content.

snip

~

Guild Wars has always had grind for cosmetics. It was always supposed to. I don’t see why you can’t recognize that.

I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I know GW1 was way more about lore and PvP then cosmetics. Mini’s you mainly got from birthdays and then there where like two sets of armor of what at least one was really grindy?

Could be wrong but thats what I know about it. I don’t think you can really compare that to how GW2 works. It’s much more an MMO where collecting items is also a more important part of the game. So turning that into a grind also different then doing that in GW1 I would think.

Then again, I could not really start a discussion with you about GW1 as I simply don’t know enough about it.

Guild Wars 1 was a grind for cosmetics. Just about everything in that game was about having different look to your armor or weapon.

A basic set of armor costs 10% of the elite armor, but elite armor had the same stats. Exactly the same stats.

The people who came from Guild Wars 1, always expected this cosmetics grind. What we didn’t want was ascended gear, or level cap increases. That’s because we had the same stats from the first game through all the rest of the games. We didn’t want or need more. We didn’t want ascended gear, because it was too hard to get and it remains, in my mind, too hard to get. The only good thing about it to me is that you don’t need it. I don’t feel it adds anything to the game.

There were two sets of armor that was massively hard to get and a boatload of rare weapon skins as well.

I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter. Then even if you did get one as a drop, it might not have been for the stats you wanted anyway.

There were also minis that were so rare, even as rich as I got, I’d never have been able to afford them. The mini polar bear for example, if you wanted to buy it with gold, you’d have to farm endlessly for years.

And you’d have to buy it from another player, because there was no marketplace there. You’d have to stand around kamadan and negotiate to buy or sell anything.

So Guild Wars 2, which had the update model you keep saying is better, still had the same type of grind for cosmetics.

“I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter.”

Wait, so you could get it without gold but by directly working for it. Well if they could do that in GW2 I would already be very happy. And then it would be in line with GW1 as well. It sounds like the drop-rate was a little to low (it should be viable to get it) but again I can’t say much about it as I did not play it a lot. Maybe the scepter was equal to the GW2 legendary, I don’t know?

Maybe GW1 had 1 extremely rare (legendary) version of everything (every weapons, 1 armor set and one mini) while the rest was doable. Without knowing that sort of things I sadly can’t really say much about it.

What surprises me is this part: “Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it.” so then you should perfectly understand why I say I don’t want the gold grind but why I want to directly work towards it.

When I say I could have bought it with gold it was a lot of gold. I’d have had to grind/farm the gold to get the gold to buy it. Afterwhich Id’ have spent all my gold. It’s EXACTLY like this game in that way. Same deal.

With ascended stuff you can farm the gold to buy the components to craft it with no waiting. In that game, I’d have had to farm the gold to buy the scepter and bankrupt myself in the process and then start all over.

The fact is, the thing you’re saying would make some sort of difference, didn’t make that sort of difference in Guild Wars 1.

Devata.6589:

Stark.1350:

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

…I don’t see ascended CRAFT especially grindy – most of materials needed for it drops EVERYWHERE – the only issue of it it limit of one ecto refine of each type per day – but that have nothing to do with grind – you have materials you are just required to wait and can do other stuff meanwhile….

The ascended light armor set requires 36 bolts of damask which means you have to collect 10800(!!) silk scraps. Of course you can buy the damask. At 12g each you need to grind around 430 gold. All of that is pure grind!

The “Light of Dwayna” requires 4500 scraps of silk. I got down to only a few silvers three times in order to get that item. I went down to only a few silvers three times in order to get the silk. Just that ONE item required for the crafting cost that much. The grind was so kitten and boring I nearly quit playing the game entirely! ANet nearly lost a customer because of their kittenty decision with the amount of silk required.

This. This right here is the world’s perfect example. The game has been out 2.5 years. An expansion is coming that does nothing to raise the cap or negate your gear. That’ll probably be around for let’s say, 1-2 years.

So at the minimum, you have/had 3.5 years to get silk enough to craft it. Silk drops like candy. After a week of playing I’ll have 500 in my bank. Just by playing the game however I want.

Not to mention the item isn’t anything you need. It’s just a special cosmetic that you want.

So, once again. “Grind” in this game is only caused by self-inflicted want that you don’t have the willpower to control.

/thread

It’s always funny if people end a statement with something like /thread. Seems like they think their statement is so strong it completely destroys everything that has been said and so the thread can be closed.

But you still simply don’t get it. For those who ‘self-inflict’ the grind (that we know a lot of people do because all the grinding going on GW2 (based on that alone you can consider the game grindy)) it is because most of the stuff they want in this game they can only get (in a viable way) by grinding gold for it. Others might not self-inflict the grind, but that means the whole experience of collecting such items is removed from the game for them.

That is why the grind, or the need to grind IF you want to go for those things, is bad for the game. You can not in a fun (or less grindy) way directly work towards most of those items, and this being a game that should be the case. It would not have to be easy but there should be a better way then grinding… And buying is not playing!

The game maybe makes people self-inflict ´optional´ grind because it’s the only viable way. But in the end, grind is grind and there is no real good in-game alternative for this grind and that is bad.

Please explain how grind equates to playing the game normally and allowing things to come to you over time.

Hylgeriak.8250:

Swagger.1459:

still waiting on the “focus on zero grind” part for ascended weapons and armor to be implemented…

you chose to make it a grind for yourself if you decide to actively go for the required mats instead of bunkering them while regularly playing the stuff you want and wait until you can efford it. There’s no content in GW2 that’s not entirelly doable without ascended gear

your reply has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. it wasn’t supposed to be a grind in the first place hence the “focus on zero grind” part. also, it is not about waiting or not waiting. it’s not about doable or not doable. it’s not about needing or not needing. it’s about the required methods to obtain ascended weapons and armor contradict the statements I quoted.

To bored to read all of it, but IMO it’s a grind, you either grind for a legendary to look good, or good looking skins, or you grind for better stats. There’s no difference. I’ve never cared on any game to be the strongest gear wise, I work for it, grind for it, but not with the feeling that i’m going to be stronger. It’s a goal I set for myself to get, and whatever it is, skins, gears, mini’s, tonics, idc, I have to grind for it, and in GW2 i’ve never grinded so hard to get 1 skin.

It’s the content GW2 has, if it’s not a grind cause you’re not forced to do it, it means your game has no content that’s worth anything, which isn’t the case to me but that seems to be the way arenanet looks at it?

climonite.8537:

To bored to read all of it, but IMO it’s a grind, you either grind for a legendary to look good, or good looking skins, or you grind for better stats. There’s no difference. I’ve never cared on any game to be the strongest gear wise, I work for it, grind for it, but not with the feeling that i’m going to be stronger. It’s a goal I set for myself to get, and whatever it is, skins, gears, mini’s, tonics, idc, I have to grind for it, and in GW2 i’ve never grinded so hard to get 1 skin.

It’s the content GW2 has, if it’s not a grind cause you’re not forced to do it, it means your game has no content that’s worth anything, which isn’t the case to me but that seems to be the way arenanet looks at it?

I don’t think Anet looks at it the way you’re saying. You have to look at it within the context of the genre.

There are many many MMORPGs out there where if you don’t have the newest/highest tier of gear, you simply can’t do certain content. You’re physically locked out of that content. You can’t even ATTEMPT that content.

While I leveled in Rift I had stats going up all the time. When I got to max level, they added a new stat I never had before called focus.

Until my focus was 100, I couldn’t queue for a specific dungeon. And the amount of damage I could do to creatures in that dungeon was zero. That is you needed 100 focus to do any damage at all to that creature. It was required by the game. If I tried to use the LFG tool to queue for the dungeon, the game itself would tell me I don’t meet those requirements.

In Guild Wars 2, from just drops and playing, you get pretty much the gear you need in the open world. You get karma just playing to buy some stuff, but even if you were all in greens, you wouldn’t be excluded from much content.

It makes a world of difference to me. It’s not just that I don’t have to grind for that gear but without grinding for it, I can play pretty much everything in the game. Just about all the game is open to me except the highest level fractals, which were designed specifically for people who like that play style.

But I can still experience every fractal without grinding.

I don’t understand why some of you are saying that Ascended gear is only cosmetic…
I admit I haven’t logged into the game in a while… but Last I checked, Ascended gear is Best in Slot, is it not?

It doesn’t matter if something CAN be done in Exotic gear or Rare gear or whatever… that’s not really the point. The point is that Anet is sticking to their statement of having a “No Grind Philosophy” and that players should be able to naturally obtain Best in Slot gear through normal gameplay with no grind….

This is simply not true… Ascended gear contradicts the No Grind Philosophy…
As stated above, one would need to collect Thousands of the same mats for Ascended gear. So what exactly is the Argument? That because we are given more than one way to obtain those mats, The grind disappears?

Ok so here is a box that contains a prize. You can have the prize by doing either; 10 thousand pushups, 10 thousand situps, or 10 thousand squats. Since you have been given multiple ways to earn that prize, it’s not considered a grind.

Whether you are willing to put in the time and effort and work to get that prize is irrelevant… it IS a grind, in a game that claims to have no grind….

To those who look at Guild Wars 1 and think there was no grind or farming, I remember entire guilds dedicated to farming.

Faction farming guilds, gold farming guilds….I had a friend who farmed feathers over and over ad nauseum just to buy the stuff he wanted in game. I had friends who did the Vatteir farm. I had friends who raptor farmed. I’m sure those who played remember VS farming (voltaic spear for those at home). Anyone else farm those Z keys to open the Zaishen Chest?

Remember those double lightbringer point weekends were everyone was farming lightbringer points in the sufurous wastes. How many times did we run the same content for the rarest chance of a mini polar bear.

The grind, for me anyway, hasn’t changed MUCH from Guild Wars 1. But yeah, the ascended gear was definitely a departure for me.

I’m just glad they’ve now confirmed there’ll never be another tier of gear and they won’t raise the level cap either.

Forgot all the time I spent farming decayed orr emblems outside Bergen Hot Springs on my 55 monk. lol

Edit: Oh and let’s not forget ecto farming on solo rits in the Underworld. We never ever called it grinding. We called it farming.

Vayne.8563:

I’m just glad they’ve now confirmed there’ll never be another tier of gear and they won’t raise the level cap either.

Except things change, and decisions change, so we may well see another tier of gear. After all, there wasn’t supposed to be gear past Exotic, either. That’s why Legendaries originally carried the same stat levels as Exotic Gear.

ANet’s word isn’t really worth a lot, quite frankly.

Zenith.7301:

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

Fractals are a kind of dungeon run. Dungeons are like the very definition of grinding. You run them over and over.

I’ve done dungeons maybe like 5-10 times in the history of the game release and I’m doing fine playing all the non-grind content with my exotic non-ascended gear.

You say 70 AR is not optional. But fractals level 50 is very optional, lol.

If you play dungeons or fractals you are CHOOSING to grind. You can always choose to play something non-grindy.

Thus: Grind not required.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

I’m just glad they’ve now confirmed there’ll never be another tier of gear and they won’t raise the level cap either.

Except things change, and decisions change, so we may well see another tier of gear. After all, there wasn’t supposed to be gear past Exotic, either. That’s why Legendaries originally carried the same stat levels as Exotic Gear.

ANet’s word isn’t really worth a lot, quite frankly.

First of all they said this recently in an interview. We don’t really know about ascended, because Anet did also say that ascended was mentioned by them pre launch and had always been meant to be in the game. Of course, that doesn’t mean it was meant to be in the game in it’s current form.

However, Anet has kept most of their words. If I was dealing with a person and 90% of the time they kept their word, I would consider those people quite honest.

It’s amazing that we hold developers to higher standards than our own familes.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

I’m just glad they’ve now confirmed there’ll never be another tier of gear and they won’t raise the level cap either.

Except things change, and decisions change, so we may well see another tier of gear. After all, there wasn’t supposed to be gear past Exotic, either. That’s why Legendaries originally carried the same stat levels as Exotic Gear.

ANet’s word isn’t really worth a lot, quite frankly.

That’s just speculation. Did Anet actually say there would never be a tier past exotic? I don’t think they did.

Ok but in the end everyone wants a legendary at some point, or a full ascended set. You don’t need it, but with that goal in mind you keep playing, and to hit that goal you do need to grind to get it.

I also don’t like to run around doing WvW or PvP in a ugly looking armor, again I don’t need it, but the game wouldn’t be fun for me without awesome looking skins, to get them I need to grind.

I could decide not to worry about skins, legendarys, ascended, but then the game wouldn’t be fun for me, so to keep the game fun, i’d have to grind. If I take out the those things and don’t bother working for them, it means the game has no content I like doing, which is looking good while killing people XD

Obtena.7952:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

I’m just glad they’ve now confirmed there’ll never be another tier of gear and they won’t raise the level cap either.

Except things change, and decisions change, so we may well see another tier of gear. After all, there wasn’t supposed to be gear past Exotic, either. That’s why Legendaries originally carried the same stat levels as Exotic Gear.

ANet’s word isn’t really worth a lot, quite frankly.

That’s just speculation. Did Anet actually say there would never be a tier past exotic? I don’t think they did.

They never said it, no. But they did say that BIS gear should be relatively easy to get without grinding, and I’d say ascended gear, at very least, changed that.

But then a lot of people who came from other games, got max level gear and left. Anet really had no choice but to do SOMETHING. They decided on a compromise. Give people something to grind for that isn’t actually required to do anything, and at least keep people playing longer. Give those who like to grind out gear something to do (yes there are people who want that play style).

The compromise doesn’t leave everyone happy. Hardliners on both sides will take issue with it. Those who wanted NO vertical progression are going to have a cow. Those who want full on gear progession won’t stay…but many people, like me, are sort of in the middle. I don’t like it, but I can see why they did it.

Vayne.8563:

First of all they said this recently in an interview.

I know, I’ve seen the interview. And I really don’t care if it was an interview -or- recent.

They also said in an interview that things like the shooting gallery were ready, in game, and available. The shooting gallery was given as an example of things that they talk about because those things are definitely, positively, in the game.

ANet putting something in an interview doesn’t mean much of anything, because later down the line they can just change their mind, anyway.

Vayne.8563:

We don’t really know about ascended, because Anet did also say that ascended was mentioned by them pre launch and had always been meant to be in the game.

Which is why everything in game up to that point suggested it was nothing more than an ill-thought tacked on thing? It was PR spin, nothing more. It was as much PR spin as Mike O’Brien’s post about “more and better communication while keeping hold of a policy that would never allow more and better communication”

Vayne.8563:

However, Anet has kept most of their words. If I was dealing with a person and 90% of the time they kept their word, I would consider those people quite honest.

And then they change their mind and decide the best thing for the game is another tier of gear.

Like they’ve already done once before.

You can look at quantity all you want. I’d rather look at the quality of that “honesty”, and said quality is rather…poor.

Vayne.8563:

It’s amazing that we hold developers to higher standards than our own familes.

Well, one is a business that exists solely to make money. The other is a unit of people related through blood, circumstance, and (hopefully good) feelings that rely on one another to exist in this world.

Gee, I wonder which one I’m going to give more leeway to.

GW2 simply does not have a grind unless you choose it. So many people keep talking about Ascended being a grind. You may choose to grind it out so you can have it NOW. But you know what? If you just play the game, doing what you enjoy, you can still get what you want in time.

I have 5 level 80’s that have all Ascended weapons, trinkets and backs. I never grind. One of those characters also has full Ascended armor and I still never grind. I just salvage all my stuff and refine when I have enough. I buy some of the lower tier mat’s from the TP when I need them.

With this game, its a mindset. If you really want something, you can set it as a long term goal and just play the game the way you want. You may be surprised how easy you can get stuff. If you have to have in NOW, then you make the choice to grind it out.

One of the reasons you can take your time in GW2 is the lack of a gear treadmill. That Ascended gear that I took my sweet time making will still be my best equipment for years to come. I don’t need to rush it, knowing that in 6 – 12 months I have to do it again when the next expansion hits.

I’m now working on a set of Ascended light armor. I won’t grind for it, not even for a minute, but I’ll have it eventually.

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Zaklex.6308:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

nGumball.1283:

Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.

Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon Age

It’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.

And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.

Note, those are all single player games…name an MMO that has no “grind” and I’ll agree you have a point. Otherwise it’s like talking apples and oranges.

P.S. – I put “grind” in quotes because one persons “grind” is another persons “fun”.

play guild wars (not GW2), no grind at all.
it’s all cosmetic and gear is easily maxed out, unlike GW2 where you get spit on the moment you wear rare armor instead of exotic.
GW has white armor as maxed gear, if that was the case in GW2 then you can talk about no grind in GW2, till then grind away.

I grinded just as much in Guild Wars 1 as I did here, to make my skills more powerful. It wasn’t GEAR grind, but it was still grind to become more powerful.

Considering that in GW2 the materials to craft and the drops from bosses are all locked behind a pretty hefty and manipulated (with DR no less) RNG system that statement is a lie. Sorry, but you had a direct result for completing the tasks for obtaining the skills you wanted, there was no dice roll to see if you got it or got some other ability.

The two are not the same.

Vayne.8563:

It’s amazing that we hold developers to higher standards than our own familes.

Oh and I can’t speak for yours but if anyone in my family did what I’ve experienced with this team I would feel just as betrayed!

Mo Mo.1947:

Zenith.7301:

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

Fractals are a kind of dungeon run. Dungeons are like the very definition of grinding. You run them over and over.

I’ve done dungeons maybe like 5-10 times in the history of the game release and I’m doing fine playing all the non-grind content with my exotic non-ascended gear.

You say 70 AR is not optional. But fractals level 50 is very optional, lol.

If you play dungeons or fractals you are CHOOSING to grind. You can always choose to play something non-grindy.

Thus: Grind not required.

By this logic WoW, SWTOR or TESO are also “no grind” games

Brahmincorle.1264:

Mo Mo.1947:

Zenith.7301:

What part of not “optional” do people not get from fractal 50. 70 AR is not OPTIONAL.

Fractals are a kind of dungeon run. Dungeons are like the very definition of grinding. You run them over and over.

I’ve done dungeons maybe like 5-10 times in the history of the game release and I’m doing fine playing all the non-grind content with my exotic non-ascended gear.

You say 70 AR is not optional. But fractals level 50 is very optional, lol.

If you play dungeons or fractals you are CHOOSING to grind. You can always choose to play something non-grindy.

Thus: Grind not required.

By this logic WoW, SWTOR or TESO are also “no grind” games

Everything is on the same level in GW2, while in the other games raiding is the final point.

First of all sorry for my bad english.

TL DR : GW2 do not require you to do "Champion Train " style which is running in circle around the map to kill the same mob over and over again to level up from 1-80 and waiting for a single mob to drop certain item , all you need to do is establish yourself and create the variation of activity during each play time yourself

A. New Entry to Exotic : Establish Yourself

TLDR : if you able to establish yourself getting exotic and ascended accessory don not feel like a grind, the stat you will get with this setup can tackle any content such as wvw and dungeon

Find yourself good guilds that will help you run through group content such as doing dungeon story and wvw, while you enjoy the journey through every map available and also enjoy some chat with them and other. As you approach or near 80 you can join the guild mission which give you Guild Commendation and combine that with laurel and Dungeon token around 1 or 2 month from your first 80 you will have character full of exotic and Ascended Accessory

B. Beyond 80 : it was human nature to surpass every border

TLDR : This part is for dedicated player that want to dedicated more effort to the game

1. Crafting ascended armor weapon and legendary : too expensive ? " bad grind ?"

I say no, do we know why Guild Wars 2’s Trading post still working ?, imo its because people still buy and sell low level material which make the economy somewhat still running and new entry player can make some gold buy selling “that soft wood log”

Ascended armor and weapon can give the owner prestige and extra sense of achievement and for weapons it is more cheaper than legendary with “that precursor”, even the guy with full ascended and dual legendary cant steamroll people on wvw or pvp and nobody will rage if you do bigger damage on dungeon or pve content.

2. Fractals

i am not doing this content but my friend which have fractal weapons say that this was his prize for hardwork and he will be sad if this item drop on level 1 and also your character do not get torn to pieces by those who use fractal weapons either

C. Conclusion

If you able to establish yourself you will get exotic armor and weapon WITH ascended accessory with that setup you can tackle this content or tomorrow’s

Precursor need to be easier

Even with full ascended you can t steamroll people on wvw and no one will rage if you do more damage on dungeon or pve content

This game have grind but you dont feel the grind if you have community and be social while getting yout objective

When devs or manage makes decision that ends up detracting from the experience of the customers then the customers have the right to complain, voice their opinions and show distrust, especially when this isn’t the companies first time for doing it.

Who are you to tell us that we can’t express our opinions when you do so blatently?.. we judge because this is a product we paid for.

Whether the decision they make is easy or not is irrelevant because it does not concern the customers, its not our problem. All that matters is do you deliver what you advertised. When you don’t deliver, then the we have a problem and then threads like this will pop up.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

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I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I know GW1 was way more about lore and PvP then cosmetics. Mini’s you mainly got from birthdays and then there where like two sets of armor of what at least one was really grindy?

Could be wrong but thats what I know about it. I don’t think you can really compare that to how GW2 works. It’s much more an MMO where collecting items is also a more important part of the game. So turning that into a grind also different then doing that in GW1 I would think.

Then again, I could not really start a discussion with you about GW1 as I simply don’t know enough about it.

Guild Wars 1 was a grind for cosmetics. Just about everything in that game was about having different look to your armor or weapon.

A basic set of armor costs 10% of the elite armor, but elite armor had the same stats. Exactly the same stats.

The people who came from Guild Wars 1, always expected this cosmetics grind. What we didn’t want was ascended gear, or level cap increases. That’s because we had the same stats from the first game through all the rest of the games. We didn’t want or need more. We didn’t want ascended gear, because it was too hard to get and it remains, in my mind, too hard to get. The only good thing about it to me is that you don’t need it. I don’t feel it adds anything to the game.

There were two sets of armor that was massively hard to get and a boatload of rare weapon skins as well.

I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter. Then even if you did get one as a drop, it might not have been for the stats you wanted anyway.

There were also minis that were so rare, even as rich as I got, I’d never have been able to afford them. The mini polar bear for example, if you wanted to buy it with gold, you’d have to farm endlessly for years.

And you’d have to buy it from another player, because there was no marketplace there. You’d have to stand around kamadan and negotiate to buy or sell anything.

So Guild Wars 2, which had the update model you keep saying is better, still had the same type of grind for cosmetics.

“I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter.”

Wait, so you could get it without gold but by directly working for it. Well if they could do that in GW2 I would already be very happy. And then it would be in line with GW1 as well. It sounds like the drop-rate was a little to low (it should be viable to get it) but again I can’t say much about it as I did not play it a lot. Maybe the scepter was equal to the GW2 legendary, I don’t know?

Maybe GW1 had 1 extremely rare (legendary) version of everything (every weapons, 1 armor set and one mini) while the rest was doable. Without knowing that sort of things I sadly can’t really say much about it.

What surprises me is this part: “Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it.” so then you should perfectly understand why I say I don’t want the gold grind but why I want to directly work towards it.

When I say I could have bought it with gold it was a lot of gold. I’d have had to grind/farm the gold to get the gold to buy it. Afterwhich Id’ have spent all my gold. It’s EXACTLY like this game in that way. Same deal.

With ascended stuff you can farm the gold to buy the components to craft it with no waiting. In that game, I’d have had to farm the gold to buy the scepter and bankrupt myself in the process and then start all over.

The fact is, the thing you’re saying would make some sort of difference, didn’t make that sort of difference in Guild Wars 1.

Only you completely ignore the fact that you could directly work towards those items as well what makes it completely different in this game.

Also you ignore the idea / question if there where only a few extremely hard to get / grindy things while the rest was maybe all more viable and less grindy to get. The fact that you do makes me wonder if that is the case what would indeed make that on part with the legendaries.

If only the legendaries would be like this I would be oke with it, but the problem is that it’s the case for most of the cosmetics in GW2 so it still seems to be very different.

Stark.1350:

Devata.6589:

Stark.1350:

Kashrlyyk.5364:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

…I don’t see ascended CRAFT especially grindy – most of materials needed for it drops EVERYWHERE – the only issue of it it limit of one ecto refine of each type per day – but that have nothing to do with grind – you have materials you are just required to wait and can do other stuff meanwhile….

The ascended light armor set requires 36 bolts of damask which means you have to collect 10800(!!) silk scraps. Of course you can buy the damask. At 12g each you need to grind around 430 gold. All of that is pure grind!

The “Light of Dwayna” requires 4500 scraps of silk. I got down to only a few silvers three times in order to get that item. I went down to only a few silvers three times in order to get the silk. Just that ONE item required for the crafting cost that much. The grind was so kitten and boring I nearly quit playing the game entirely! ANet nearly lost a customer because of their kittenty decision with the amount of silk required.

This. This right here is the world’s perfect example. The game has been out 2.5 years. An expansion is coming that does nothing to raise the cap or negate your gear. That’ll probably be around for let’s say, 1-2 years.

So at the minimum, you have/had 3.5 years to get silk enough to craft it. Silk drops like candy. After a week of playing I’ll have 500 in my bank. Just by playing the game however I want.

Not to mention the item isn’t anything you need. It’s just a special cosmetic that you want.

So, once again. “Grind” in this game is only caused by self-inflicted want that you don’t have the willpower to control.

/thread

It’s always funny if people end a statement with something like /thread. Seems like they think their statement is so strong it completely destroys everything that has been said and so the thread can be closed.

But you still simply don’t get it. For those who ‘self-inflict’ the grind (that we know a lot of people do because all the grinding going on GW2 (based on that alone you can consider the game grindy)) it is because most of the stuff they want in this game they can only get (in a viable way) by grinding gold for it. Others might not self-inflict the grind, but that means the whole experience of collecting such items is removed from the game for them.

That is why the grind, or the need to grind IF you want to go for those things, is bad for the game. You can not in a fun (or less grindy) way directly work towards most of those items, and this being a game that should be the case. It would not have to be easy but there should be a better way then grinding… And buying is not playing!

The game maybe makes people self-inflict ´optional´ grind because it’s the only viable way. But in the end, grind is grind and there is no real good in-game alternative for this grind and that is bad.

Please explain how grind equates to playing the game normally and allowing things to come to you over time.

Things don’t just come over time, I never make the amount of gold I would need to buy the cosmetics I like, by playing the game ‘normally’.

Not to mention that hunting down items is what I like to do.. so what would be the preferred way of ‘playing the game normally’ for me.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

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I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I know GW1 was way more about lore and PvP then cosmetics. Mini’s you mainly got from birthdays and then there where like two sets of armor of what at least one was really grindy?

Could be wrong but thats what I know about it. I don’t think you can really compare that to how GW2 works. It’s much more an MMO where collecting items is also a more important part of the game. So turning that into a grind also different then doing that in GW1 I would think.

Then again, I could not really start a discussion with you about GW1 as I simply don’t know enough about it.

snip

There were two sets of armor that was massively hard to get and a boatload of rare weapon skins as well.

I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter. Then even if you did get one as a drop, it might not have been for the stats you wanted anyway.

There were also minis that were so rare, even as rich as I got, I’d never have been able to afford them. The mini polar bear for example, if you wanted to buy it with gold, you’d have to farm endlessly for years.

And you’d have to buy it from another player, because there was no marketplace there. You’d have to stand around kamadan and negotiate to buy or sell anything.

So Guild Wars 2, which had the update model you keep saying is better, still had the same type of grind for cosmetics.

“I tried to get a frog scepter for years in Guild Wars 1. Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it. I ran the dungeon bogroot growths until I couldn’t look at it any more. No frog scepter.”

Wait, so you could get it without gold but by directly working for it. Well if they could do that in GW2 I would already be very happy. And then it would be in line with GW1 as well. It sounds like the drop-rate was a little to low (it should be viable to get it) but again I can’t say much about it as I did not play it a lot. Maybe the scepter was equal to the GW2 legendary, I don’t know?

Maybe GW1 had 1 extremely rare (legendary) version of everything (every weapons, 1 armor set and one mini) while the rest was doable. Without knowing that sort of things I sadly can’t really say much about it.

What surprises me is this part: “Yes I could have bought it with gold, but I wanted to get it.” so then you should perfectly understand why I say I don’t want the gold grind but why I want to directly work towards it.

When I say I could have bought it with gold it was a lot of gold. I’d have had to grind/farm the gold to get the gold to buy it. Afterwhich Id’ have spent all my gold. It’s EXACTLY like this game in that way. Same deal.

With ascended stuff you can farm the gold to buy the components to craft it with no waiting. In that game, I’d have had to farm the gold to buy the scepter and bankrupt myself in the process and then start all over.

The fact is, the thing you’re saying would make some sort of difference, didn’t make that sort of difference in Guild Wars 1.

Only you completely ignore the fact that you could directly work towards those items as well what makes it completely different in this game.

Also you ignore the idea / question if there where only a few extremely hard to get / grindy things while the rest was maybe all more viable and less grindy to get. The fact that you do makes me wonder if that is the case what would indeed make that on part with the legendaries.

If only the legendaries would be like this I would be oke with it, but the problem is that it’s the case for most of the cosmetics in GW2 so it still seems to be very different.

The point is I worked for that other thing for years and didn’t get it due to RNG. And somehow you think that’s better?

Buying it was an option but it was just too much money to spend. There were other things I wanted more.

The point is, that game wasn’t so different from this game, but you keep saying if this game was more like that, making money off expansions it would be different.

It’s not really. Not in the sense you’re claiming it would be.