Guild Wars 2

SenorMoody.5908:

Even by Anet’s interpretation of the word “Grind”…
Stating that they have a “No grind philosophy” is completely false…

- To obtain the best gear / stats, a character NEEDS ascended.
- To get Ascended gear, you NEED to grind mats for crafting, or gold for buying
- This is a very time consuming and boring grind.
- This is just using Anet’s interpretation of the word.

GW2 does not have a lot of grind… but to say they have “No Grind” is false.
Maybe they should start saying that Anet has a “Low Grind Philosophy”, then
maybe people wouldn’t get so upset.

you haven’t read Colins Post I’m afraid time consuming is not yet grind according to ArenaNet definition listed above – grind is when you are required to repeatedly do same boring thing over and over again. I don’t see ascended CRAFT especially grindy – most of materials needed for it drops EVERYWHERE – the only issue of it it limit of one ecto refine of each type per day – but that have nothing to do with grind – you have materials you are just required to wait and can do other stuff meanwhile.

also as maybe Fractals may look like a sanctuary of grind – and personally I used to see them this way – randomness of maps and variety of them make fractals much less repetive and by this one fractal ascended trinket is sth like 10 dailies of level 10-20 fractals

aso they are ascended trinkets for guild commendations that are extremely easy to get when you are a part of big enought guild + there are laurels as well

the very only thing from ascended tier that I consider somewhat actually requiring grinding of any kind are fractal backpacks – but you can quite easilly – although time consumingly get ascended backpack via scavenger hunt which is far from being boring and repetive (maudrey) so as getting full ascended requires TIME you can get all set without anything matching ANet definition of grind

Redfield.6174:

VodCom.6924:

Some people clearly need a recall :

• An MMO is considered “grindy” if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”
• Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it “grindy”
• In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals. Of all these only fractals of level 10+ require ascended equipment. Thus one with exotic gear can access 100% of endgame content since you walk through the same fractals at level or 50 (only the difficulty changes).
• And GW2 gives you tools to bypass the leveling process for your alts (exp tomes + skill scrolls + gold to buy traits).

With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :

• Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
• bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game.

Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game.

THIS. Just stick with this comment and erase the rest, please.

Just on your last point , " Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game "…

Curious, why would they cater and bend to one small minority of players and not others? (and they have said they knew it would have the reaction it got before they released ascended gear )

There are other vocal minority, or even almost majority of players that have large concerns about some areas of this game that get little to no attention their way.

I’d start with pointing out that there are probably more people that like LS, but theres probably more people that dislike it than there were people that clamored for Ascended gear. Just a guess though…

Aside from that…
-Dungeon revamps: theres a dungeon crawl minority that has been completely overlooked.
-Encouragement to play in the open world in any zone: Theres a section of the playerbase that wants to just log in and complete dynamic events in any zone that they choose, but not feel like they have wasted their time. 1.5 silver and 12k XP is a horrible way for rewarding what many consider the whole point of this game.

Just a few examples…

And I understand that they can’t possible address every pocket of players, but I do find it interesting that they addressed the one pocket of players (and issue) that would create one of the largest controversies and debated topics on these forums(and in game).

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

Maybe my guild isn’t special. Maybe there are a lot of guilds like mine out there. I seem to run into people from those guilds quite frequently, so it’s likely my guild isn’t the only one.

I see plenty of posts that agree with what I say on these forums and none of them people who post them…well sometimes one of them, is in my guild. The rest of the people posting agreement are in other guilds.

Your attempts to discredit me with those types of generalities are pretty silly. And that’s all they are.

For months and months you’ve been banging on about the one single issue that you’re obsessed about, and everything you say comes back to that single issue. It’s the root of all evil to you.

It doesn’t make any of your arguments stronger.

“Your attempts to discredit me with those types of generalities are pretty silly.”
You mean me saying you have a special guild? That is because in every discussion I see you have (also the ones I am not involved in) if somebody says ‘this is what I see in my guild’ you almost always answer ‘well I see something completely different in my guild.’ that’s all. No attempt to discredit you. There was just no need to say this here as I already know that. I also do not say it’s not true so it’s in no way discrediting your statement(s).

“For months and months”
About 2 years to be exact.

“you’ve been banging on about the one single issue”
In fact there are multiple issues I talk(ed) about. Here ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/8#post4741950 ) is a pretty complete list of what I dislike. Ofcourse there were also a few other like the fact that in WvW it became more about flipping keeps then really trying to get and hold your stuff (because that was less rewarding) plus that it seemed a little meaningless, something that should be fixed in HoT!! Great news. And the temporary content (where you were also active in, but then basically defending it or at least trying to dismiss what people where saying) what Anet did already change.

But yeah it’s a slim list and the cash-shop focus (that is the ‘one issue’ you talk about right?) is the number one on the list. But heey, isn’t that better? It shows I’m not here just to complain for the sake of complaining but I only talk about things I do indeed feel strongly about. That would be a positive one would think?, better than the people who pop up in almost so many completely unrelated threads seemingly just to argue, complain or defend for the sake of it.

“that you’re obsessed about, and everything you say comes back to that single issue. It’s the root of all evil to you.”
hmm did you even stop to think about the possibility that it’s the other way around? I find that one thing so very bad because I do run into things I dislike and that seem to have their cause (there root) into that one thing. I dislike the grind, the grind seems to be there because of the cash-shop focus and so I dislike the cash-shop focus.

“It doesn’t make any of your arguments stronger.” Nor weaker. My arguments are what they are and the grind is what it is.

cesmode.4257:

Curious, why would they cater and bend to one small minority of players and not others? (and they have said they knew it would have the reaction it got before they released ascended gear )

Because this minority wanted something easy to make and something very easy to monetize (gems → gold → materials from TP).

cesmode.4257:

Aside from that…
-Dungeon revamps: theres a dungeon crawl minority that has been completely overlooked.
-Encouragement to play in the open world in any zone: Theres a section of the playerbase that wants to just log in and complete dynamic events in any zone that they choose, but not feel like they have wasted their time. 1.5 silver and 12k XP is a horrible way for rewarding what many consider the whole point of this game.

Just a few examples…

And I understand that they can’t possible address every pocket of players, but I do find it interesting that they addressed the one pocket of players (and issue) that would create one of the largest controversies and debated topics on these forums(and in game).

Well they could addres 2 crowds at the same time by making ascended armor/weapons a guaranteed drop in fractals and harder dungeons (this would require fixing all exploits in Arah and revamp of bosses to not make it easy farm). Ofc with option to craft it like now.

Redfield.6174:

VodCom.6924:

Some people clearly need a recall :

• An MMO is considered “grindy” if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”
• Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it “grindy”
• In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals. Of all these only fractals of level 10+ require ascended equipment. Thus one with exotic gear can access 100% of endgame content since you walk through the same fractals at level or 50 (only the difficulty changes).
• And GW2 gives you tools to bypass the leveling process for your alts (exp tomes + skill scrolls + gold to buy traits).

With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :

• Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
• bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game.

Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game.

THIS. Just stick with this comment and erase the rest, please.

This. 10,000 times this.

Brahmincorle.1264:

cesmode.4257:

Curious, why would they cater and bend to one small minority of players and not others? (and they have said they knew it would have the reaction it got before they released ascended gear )

Because this minority wanted something easy to make and something very easy to monetize (gems -> gold -> materials from TP).

cesmode.4257:

Aside from that…
-Dungeon revamps: theres a dungeon crawl minority that has been completely overlooked.
-Encouragement to play in the open world in any zone: Theres a section of the playerbase that wants to just log in and complete dynamic events in any zone that they choose, but not feel like they have wasted their time. 1.5 silver and 12k XP is a horrible way for rewarding what many consider the whole point of this game.

Just a few examples…

And I understand that they can’t possible address every pocket of players, but I do find it interesting that they addressed the one pocket of players (and issue) that would create one of the largest controversies and debated topics on these forums(and in game).

Well they could addres 2 crowds at the same time by making ascended armor/weapons a guaranteed drop in fractals and harder dungeons (this would require fixing all exploits in Arah and revamp of bosses to not make it easy farm). Ofc with option to craft it like now.

Ascended weapons/armor are random drops from anywhere in the game. They are incredibly rare, but they do drop.

Stark.1350:

Brahmincorle.1264:

cesmode.4257:

Curious, why would they cater and bend to one small minority of players and not others? (and they have said they knew it would have the reaction it got before they released ascended gear )

Because this minority wanted something easy to make and something very easy to monetize (gems -> gold -> materials from TP).

cesmode.4257:

Aside from that…
-Dungeon revamps: theres a dungeon crawl minority that has been completely overlooked.
-Encouragement to play in the open world in any zone: Theres a section of the playerbase that wants to just log in and complete dynamic events in any zone that they choose, but not feel like they have wasted their time. 1.5 silver and 12k XP is a horrible way for rewarding what many consider the whole point of this game.

Just a few examples…

And I understand that they can’t possible address every pocket of players, but I do find it interesting that they addressed the one pocket of players (and issue) that would create one of the largest controversies and debated topics on these forums(and in game).

Well they could addres 2 crowds at the same time by making ascended armor/weapons a guaranteed drop in fractals and harder dungeons (this would require fixing all exploits in Arah and revamp of bosses to not make it easy farm). Ofc with option to craft it like now.

Ascended weapons/armor are random drops from anywhere in the game. They are incredibly rare, but they do drop.

yes they are random but they should be 100% guaranteed drop as a reward for completing difficult content.

Amplifiction.8413:

Perhaps players complaining about grinding need to abandon this maximum-efficiency way of thinking.

Why the assumption those complaining are going for the maximum-efficiency way?
I simply want to hunt down items in the game but for most of them the only (viable) option is grinding gold.

‘just playing the game and earning the gold along the way’ is not an option because it does not give you enough money, but then again one of the things I like to do is the hunt.. that would be part of ‘playing the game’.

I can understand that if people only have the option of grinding for gold what they might not really like they will go for the most optimal approach to at least minimize the grind, doing else would in a way mean they are punishing themselves. Or like me, you don’t grind any gold but also miss out what usually would have been a big part of the game for you.

Redfield.6174:

VodCom.6924:

Some people clearly need a recall :

• An MMO is considered “grindy” if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”
• Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it “grindy”
• In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals. Of all these only fractals of level 10+ require ascended equipment. Thus one with exotic gear can access 100% of endgame content since you walk through the same fractals at level or 50 (only the difficulty changes).
• And GW2 gives you tools to bypass the leveling process for your alts (exp tomes + skill scrolls + gold to buy traits).

With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :

• Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
• bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game.

Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game.

THIS. Just stick with this comment and erase the rest, please.

So the fact that many people experience a lot of grind in GW2 (again depending mainly on what game-play elements they prefer) should be dismissed, ignored and censored.

You know why censorship is so bad? Because if

Honestly, at this point it amuses me a lot more how there was the same sort of grind (barring Ascended, which you don’t need short of high level Fractals) in GW1 and that game was okay.

Seriously. Gamer Title Track, Legendary Defender of Ascalon, and Legendary Grandmaster Cartographer.

Lishtenbird.2814:

I am more confused by the Masteries. It totally looks like instead of gear grind, we will get skill grind. But on paper? Yes, “no gear treadmill”.

So i’m not the only one who had that thought o.O

Beldin.5498:

Lishtenbird.2814:

I am more confused by the Masteries. It totally looks like instead of gear grind, we will get skill grind. But on paper? Yes, “no gear treadmill”.

So i’m not the only one who had that thought o.O

There’s always been skill grind in Guild Wars, starting with Factions at any rate. We had to level up our Kurzick and Luxon skills. Later our Sunspear and Lightbringer Skills. After that it was our norn, deldrimor, ebon vangard and asura skills.

But it’s still completely different from gear grind, not because it’s not grinding or it is grinding. It’s because you don’t end up with stat creep.

Vayne.8563:

Beldin.5498:

Lishtenbird.2814:

I am more confused by the Masteries. It totally looks like instead of gear grind, we will get skill grind. But on paper? Yes, “no gear treadmill”.

So i’m not the only one who had that thought o.O

There’s always been skill grind in Guild Wars, starting with Factions at any rate. We had to level up our Kurzick and Luxon skills. Later our Sunspear and Lightbringer Skills. After that it was our norn, deldrimor, ebon vangard and asura skills.

But it’s still completely different from gear grind, not because it’s not grinding or it is grinding. It’s because you don’t end up with stat creep.

It still sounds like gear-progression in other MMOs. They said that is now needed
to have these skills, else you can’t beat the content. Thats much the same like in
other games where you need t5 gear to beat t6 and so on.

At least these are gating mechanics that didn’t exist till now in GW2, besides fractals.

The question is in the end how “grindy” it is to get those skills.

[edit]
Ok .. of course we have a gating mechanism actually .. that is the character level .. but thats it.
[/edit]

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

For me, no. I played the original for 7 years, getting best gear in that game was pretty quick, it was also a more versatile system.

Stark.1350:

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Bored and leaving players are problem for all MMOs, not just b2p. They solved that in other games with new content on regular basis that takes more than an hour to complete…. I like this solution more than dull gold farming, using credit card or years of gathering materials by “casual” play.

Stark.1350:

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

How is playing 4.5 years in exotics different from playing 4.5 years in ascended gear? It sounds same to me. But once again BiS gear is not why players leave, they leave because they are done with existing content but this is topic for different discussion. This one is about grind, not about lackluster end-game content in general.

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

I fully admit I may not be representative of the crowd..

But seriously? I haven’t played this game for any substantial amount of time at a go in several months, and I attribute that directly to being demotivated by being presented with a massive chore list every time I log in.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again here: getting max gear doesn’t feel good for me. It feels like a relief, like I’ve finally done my laundry and can get to play freely now. That’s not a motivation to come into a video game with, so I haven’t been.

Take the chore lists away or make them less of a chore, and I’d be in love with this game again.

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

No, I am already not interested in Acended. But what is a little boring is that the cosmetics hunt I would love to do is just a boring gold-grind.

Not going to do that but then you take away a big part of the content and so things do become boring faster yes.

Hope this answered your questions.

@Leimhroo: Chore list? This doesn’t seem to exist in my version of the client

Earning gold in this game is easy, even for casual players like myself. Yes, it would be nice to have other options to obtain cosmetics, but ANet have already made some moves in that direction.

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

No.

Levels, any sort of gear progression…all artificial forms of content.

If arenanet was able to keep us engaged without ascended gear and without upping the levels, then they would be exceptionally successful.

If ascended gear did not exist today, and I had a reason to go off exploring or play in any zone that I wanted at the current time, then gear grinds and increasing level caps would not matter.

Contextually from GW1, ascended armour was prestige armour:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Prestige_armor

It had no stat difference, but was a way to show you had worked a long time to get something or had the in game wealth to afford the armour (Fissure of Woe was a farmed armour… Vabbian armour was just crazy expensive).

If the GW2 ascended armour had no stat difference, then I would agree; but when they let that tiny amount of power creep into the ascended armour they muddied the waters of the manifesto (with good reason.. this was a strategic business health related decision on their part.. you can’t fault them for doing what they felt was good for their bottom line, but it was a slap in the face for some players…)

Typically Anet will introduce something that is initially grindy and then slowly ease back on the difficulty/rng over time ( tequatl for example, even the mordrem organ extraction tools are an example of them removing some of the grind/rng over time..) Initial grinders can lord things over casuals on their boss gear, but eventually the rest of the player base can catch up if they put some time in..

To characterize people as being petulant selfish children for wanting more options to get ascended armour/weapons is selfish and elitist. The game was sold on the promise that best in slot gear would come to you as you played (and there were a tonne of ways to get exotic gear across all play styles… karma being the one most people used or dungeons/wvw, crafting was always a slower path to get exotics but you had more options on getting what you wanted….)
Anet added more options over time and now exotics aren’t too hard to get and generally come form playing the game

I’d like to see ascended weapons/armour treated the same as exotic in the expansion with more options to get gear beyond crafting; some people don’t like crafting or have the time/patience to farm… that’s not their thing, no reason to punish them for playing what they like. (Mystic Forge? new Wvw map? new dungeons, hearts, mini dungeons, Karma, jumping puzzles etc. ) All of these could ease people into ascended gear much like how the exotics were done.

I’d also expect a set of prestige armour that puts the ascended armour grind to shame but is the same tier… that would probably be legendary armour…. but please don’t make it fugly…. ascended armour is over the top ornate fugly IMO. It should be distinct, but not gaudy to the point of impracticality.

Astraea.6075:

@Leimhroo: Chore list? This doesn’t seem to exist in my version of the client

Earning gold in this game is easy, even for casual players like myself. Yes, it would be nice to have other options to obtain cosmetics, but ANet have already made some moves in that direction.

Are chores not usually easy? A routine or minor duty or task. So I would think the brainless gold-grind might fit in that definition don’t you think?

See, this is where I get lost. You have 4.5 years to obtain something. You could easily gather the gold necessary to do that, by just logging in and playing the game how you want to play it. I can’t equate that to “grind”.

“Grind” isn’t fun. I didn’t like having to log into WoW, and do repetitive quests to grind faction out. That to me is grind. And the next expansion was the same thing. And the next.

Logging in, playing how I want to play, and over time, having everything come to me in that fashion, is fun.

That’s just me though. I don’t see any more point to argue with people in this thread. Thanks.

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

For the number of hours played (1800), I actually find it deterring that not one of my characters is in BiS gear. I find it even further deterring that the only way to get there is by crafting it.

I WvW and I’m in a good guild. So no it wouldn’t cause things to get boring. Rather I may even enjoy it more.

There are many reasons to play and keep on playing that have nothing to do with getting your characters equipped in BiS gear.

PvP
WvW
LS (for the actual story)
LS (for new skins)
Achievements
Trading/Farming (for simply amassing gold)

In fact, since they don’t plan on going any further than ascended, then activities that have nothing to do with getting BiS gear is all that remains once you get it. So unless one of those reasons is enough, ANet was going to lose you as a player sooner or later. The question is, does it make a difference if it was sooner or later wrt these types of players?

These players can be put into three groups.

1. Those that simply buy their way into it as much as possible. RL cash → Gems → Gold. Use the gold to buy what you need to power level the crafting (plenty of guides), then use the gold to buy what ever mats you need. Any mats that can’t be bought you just have to do what is required to collect. Regardless if it takes 1 month or 1 year, they spent the same amount of RL cash on it. ANet is paid the same.

2. Those that will play the game to gather mats and/or earn gold to level their crafting and craft the gear. Doesn’t matter if it takes them 1 month or 1 year, they won’t put up RL cash regardless. ANet is not paid.

3. Those that will only spend the RL money if it’s expected to take 1 year but won’t bother if it’ll only take them 1 month. This is the only case where the difference in time determines if ANet is paid or not.

So were talking a fraction of a fraction of the player base.

Deamhan.9538:

Stark.1350:

Alright, I’m going to ask everyone in this thread a very simple question.

Say ascended armor was made much easier to obtain. Say it only took a month to complete “challenging content” to fully deck out your character.

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game? And for people that answer yes, isn’t that a major problem for a non-subscription MMO?

Also keep in mind, that there are not adding any gear progression or level changes in the expansion. The game has been out for 2.5 years. And it’s going to be another couple before we see another. So let’s say, you’ve had 4.5 years to obtain your ascended gear and you can get it done in a month now. See if that changes your answer.

For the number of hours played (1800), I actually find it deterring that not one of my characters is in BiS gear. I find it even further deterring that the only way to get there is by crafting it.

I WvW and I’m in a good guild. So no it wouldn’t cause things to get boring. Rather I may even enjoy it more.

There are many reasons to play and keep on playing that have nothing to do with getting your characters equipped in BiS gear.

PvP
WvW
LS (for the actual story)
LS (for new skins)
Achievements
Trading/Farming (for simply amassing gold)

In fact, since they don’t plan on going any further than ascended, then activities that have nothing to do with getting BiS gear is all that remains once you get it. So unless one of those reasons is enough, ANet was going to lose you as a player sooner or later. The question is, does it make a difference if it was sooner or later wrt these types of players?

These players can be put into three groups.

1. Those that simply buy their way into it as much as possible. RL cash -> Gems -> Gold. Use the gold to buy what you need to power level the crafting (plenty of guides), then use the gold to buy what ever mats you need. Any mats that can’t be bought you just have to do what is required to collect. Regardless if it takes 1 month or 1 year, they spent the same amount of RL cash on it. ANet is paid the same.

2. Those that will play the game to gather mats and/or earn gold to level their crafting and craft the gear. Doesn’t matter if it takes them 1 month or 1 year, they won’t put up RL cash regardless. ANet is not paid.

3. Those that will only spend the RL money if it’s expected to take 1 year but won’t bother if it’ll only take them 1 month. This is the only case where the difference in time determines if ANet is paid or not.

So were talking a fraction of a fraction of the player base.

And how many of those do you think would be willing to buy an expansion on a more regular base (about 1 a year) if that would then add new interesting stuff to do but would also mean there was no need for the gold-grind for almost everything in the game?

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

Name one game in America or even in the UK where the grind produced millions of players? One. There isn’t one so I know the answer already and trust me I read about every single one of them including indies on multiple news sites. In fact, those with major grinds say for example, Wildstar, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that western audiences hate grind and that it always lowers the population. The population is directly affected also by how high the RNG is. Archeage anyone? Seriously, there are countless other examples out there.

Farmville. Thanks.

Let me rephrase that since you need clarification we are discussing MMOs and not microtransaction facebook games.

Name on MMO in America or EU that has a high population after adding an endless grind. You won’t find one.

So farmville is a game we should hope GW2 ends up emulating?

Seems to me that WoW got more popular when it dropped grind and eased barriers to entry to raids, and that it got less popular when it added grind and raised barriers to play. Seems to me that that’s the formula for the whole market, in fact.

Seems to me GW2 only does well because the vast majority of people can willfully ignore the existence of ascended. I’d actually love to know the metrics; how many player accounts out of the whole have ever equiped all 6 armor slots with ascended gear?

My guess it’s an extremely low percentage; most people ignoring it and only occasionally going for a piece when it seems painless enough. The number of people in this thread.. defenders, basically, who say ’don’t bother with it, it isn’t necessary’, is the source of my suspicion.

But I can’t bring myself to ignore it and carry on as if it doesn’t exist. I don’t want to play a game where I have to engage in that kind of mental gymnastics.

Lheimroo.2947:

Seems to me that WoW got more popular when it dropped grind and eased barriers to entry to raids, and that it got less popular when it added grind and raised barriers to play. Seems to me that that’s the formula for the whole market, in fact.

Close so very close its actually grind vs money, subject player(s) to an increased volume of grind and the player(s) will either choose the grind or pay money to escape said grind (me being one of those people), get the balance just right and you’ll get comments like what we see here, and the actual real story gets forgotten in the fog.

People aren’t recognizing that this is one reason why GW2 does as well as it does. Relative to other games, it’s grind is very low. Therefore it attracts a good portion of the market.

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

Name one game in America or even in the UK where the grind produced millions of players? One. There isn’t one so I know the answer already and trust me I read about every single one of them including indies on multiple news sites. In fact, those with major grinds say for example, Wildstar, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that western audiences hate grind and that it always lowers the population. The population is directly affected also by how high the RNG is. Archeage anyone? Seriously, there are countless other examples out there.

Farmville. Thanks.

Let me rephrase that since you need clarification we are discussing MMOs and not microtransaction facebook games.

Name on MMO in America or EU that has a high population after adding an endless grind. You won’t find one.

They ALL add endless grind. WoW is faction grind. You can’t deny it’s not there, because it is. Name one MMORPG that’s added no kind of grind.

I’ll wait here.

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

Name one game in America or even in the UK where the grind produced millions of players? One. There isn’t one so I know the answer already and trust me I read about every single one of them including indies on multiple news sites. In fact, those with major grinds say for example, Wildstar, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that western audiences hate grind and that it always lowers the population. The population is directly affected also by how high the RNG is. Archeage anyone? Seriously, there are countless other examples out there.

Farmville. Thanks.

Let me rephrase that since you need clarification we are discussing MMOs and not microtransaction facebook games.

Name on MMO in America or EU that has a high population after adding an endless grind. You won’t find one.

Wartune.

Vayne.8563:

Some of us looked at the entire paragraph and figured out what it meant from that context. Some of us took a pre-existing definition in our heads and ignored the context.

Yep. You did the latter, by assuming that ArenaNet was taking about level grind despite how they have didn’t mention level in association with grind in the Manifesto, and despite how they have already clarified what they meant at least twice.

When are you going to stop ignoring context and ArenaNet’s clarifications, and admit you were wrong?

Stark.1350:

With nothing else to work towards, yes or no – would you get bored with the game?

Are you talking about playing a game to have fun, or about work?

I don’t know about you, but I don’t work for free. I work in something I enjoy and I’m paid for it. In a game, I’m not going to work – I’m going to have fun. If there’s not enough content for me to have fun, just a lot of grind, I’m not going to play at all.

I think this is a matter of age. Children have a lot of free time and so don’t value enough the time they have to spend; it’s common to see them doing something mindless just to pass time. Adults, in other hand, realize how productive and lucrative their time is, and focus on having good experiences with the time they have; they are less likely to spend their free time doing something boring over and over (aka grind) and more likely to only invest their time when they enjoy doing so.

Test.8734:

Are you talking about playing a game to have fun, or about work?

I don’t know about you, but I don’t work for free. I work in something I enjoy and I’m paid for it. In a game, I’m not going to work – I’m going to have fun. If there’s not enough content for me to have fun, just a lot of grind, I’m not going to play at all.

I think this is a matter of age. Children have a lot of free time and so don’t value enough the time they have to spend; it’s common to see them doing something mindless just to pass time. Adults, in other hand, realize how productive and lucrative their time is, and focus on having good experiences with the time they have; they are less likely to spend their free time doing something boring over and over (aka grind) and more likely to only invest their time when they enjoy doing so.

And yet . . . Achievement Hunter exists.

interview snip from 2012…

“Elsewhere in the AMA thread, Studio Design Director Chris Whiteside revealed the backlash was “definitely expected” by ArenaNet, and releasing Ascended gear “would have been better at launch.” He subsequently bombshelled his bombshell by declaring, “We have no intention of adding a new rarity gear such as Ascended.”

Ultimately, ArenaNet will begin moving forward with itiered loot. “We have never said there would be no vertical progression,” Whiteside concluded. “We do intend to focus on horizontal, but we will have vertical progression moving forward with the focus on zero grind and a very low power curve.”"

still waiting on the “focus on zero grind” part for ascended weapons and armor to be implemented…

As person who just began ascended crafting I don’t mind “some” grind. Honestly the only issue with ascended crafting I have with cloth and probably later with leather.

Every armor piece need at least 3 damask for insignia only (annoying more if you want cloth armor), cloth you can obtain only by killing monsters at appropriate level (quantities required for crafting, yes you can TP them but generally people who selling them also have to kill monsters, to salvage items you need items first that only drop from monsters (or you can chesse mistic forge karma items but in long run it also is not worth I think)) , and requirements of cloth are large… For goodness sake even refining silk cost 100 pieces (and silk is 3 scraps) while other materials are 50 (and you need more cloth)…

Maybe 5% is not big difference… But what if there will be content in future that this 5% (to be funnier lets add to this meta only) will make difference?

Swagger.1459:

still waiting on the “focus on zero grind” part for ascended weapons and armor to be implemented…

you chose to make it a grind for yourself if you decide to actively go for the required mats instead of bunkering them while regularly playing the stuff you want and wait until you can efford it. There’s no content in GW2 that’s not entirelly doable without ascended gear

Zaklex.6308:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

nGumball.1283:

Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.

Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon Age

It’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.

And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.

Note, those are all single player games…name an MMO that has no “grind” and I’ll agree you have a point. Otherwise it’s like talking apples and oranges.

P.S. – I put “grind” in quotes because one persons “grind” is another persons “fun”.

play guild wars (not GW2), no grind at all.
it’s all cosmetic and gear is easily maxed out, unlike GW2 where you get spit on the moment you wear rare armor instead of exotic.
GW has white armor as maxed gear, if that was the case in GW2 then you can talk about no grind in GW2, till then grind away.

sorudo.9054:

Zaklex.6308:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

nGumball.1283:

Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.

Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon Age

It’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.

And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.

Note, those are all single player games…name an MMO that has no “grind” and I’ll agree you have a point. Otherwise it’s like talking apples and oranges.

P.S. – I put “grind” in quotes because one persons “grind” is another persons “fun”.

play guild wars (not GW2), no grind at all.
it’s all cosmetic and gear is easily maxed out, unlike GW2 where you get spit on the moment you wear rare armor instead of exotic.
GW has white armor as maxed gear, if that was the case in GW2 then you can talk about no grind in GW2, till then grind away.

I grinded just as much in Guild Wars 1 as I did here, to make my skills more powerful. It wasn’t GEAR grind, but it was still grind to become more powerful.

sorudo.9054:

Zaklex.6308:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

nGumball.1283:

Please sir, find that game that has no grind and only has content and enjoy it for yourself.

Elder Scrolls
Mass Effect
Fallout
Dragon Age

It’s actually quite easy to make a game with no grind and only content. The thing is, you won’t be able to play it for a loooong time. All of the individual titles in those franchises I played like 100 to 400 hours each. Guild Wars 2 I played 2,500 hours.

And that’s what MMO devs want, to keep you playing. So yea, it is possible, they just won’t do it.

Note, those are all single player games…name an MMO that has no “grind” and I’ll agree you have a point. Otherwise it’s like talking apples and oranges.

P.S. – I put “grind” in quotes because one persons “grind” is another persons “fun”.

play guild wars (not GW2), no grind at all.
it’s all cosmetic and gear is easily maxed out, unlike GW2 where you get spit on the moment you wear rare armor instead of exotic.
GW has white armor as maxed gear, if that was the case in GW2 then you can talk about no grind in GW2, till then grind away.

Have you ever played GW1?! Man, grinding those achievements there for the HoM titles was a pure nightmare (sweet tooth, party animal, etc etc).

Glad, I can do all of the content in GW2 without ascended armor too, no no need to worry about equipment

Obtena.7952:

People aren’t recognizing that this is one reason why GW2 does as well as it does. Relative to other games, it’s grind is very low. Therefore it attracts a good portion of the market.

Its already been said in this thread that WoW has less grind, SWTOR is similar to WOW and has less grind as does ESO. So comparative to others Western MMOs its grind is not low.

Hylgeriak.8250:

bunkering them while regularly playing the stuff you want and wait until you can efford it. There’s no content in GW2 that’s not entirelly doable without ascended gear

Blindly parroting dev rethorics doesn’t suddenly make things available by ‘doing your own thing’. That has been debunked many times in this very thread.
Moreover, if ascended is not needed for any type of content, it can either be removed entirely (also cuz fashion crime), or harmonized with the remaining gear as far as stats are regarded.

Hylgeriak.8250:

Have you ever played GW1?! Man, grinding those achievements there for the HoM titles was a pure nightmare (sweet tooth, party animal, etc etc).

Err, I mostly pvp on GW and I easily maxed out both of those titles you mention with the sweets and alco items from pvp reward chests. Vanquishing and cartographing are a different beast, but I have 30+ pts in HoM from 90% pvp with some added flavour of pve. Must be magic.

Similar to the posts above whining about players ‘creating’ grind for themselves, if you chose to make title acquisition a tiresome grind, the blame is on you – I obtained mine by doing the things that made fun, and I skipped those which felt tedious or boring.

Concerning your example, sweets and alcohol were readily available from myriad of sources, in particular during events, so neither of those were really tiresome to obtain, if you just play the game regularly. That is something which by NO means applies to the attrocity that is ascended armor/weaps.

This apologist talking reads a lot like voluntary self-inflicted brain-washing because people are hell bent on believing the game does things differently, when it actually doesn’t. Baffling.

morrolan.9608:

Obtena.7952:

People aren’t recognizing that this is one reason why GW2 does as well as it does. Relative to other games, it’s grind is very low. Therefore it attracts a good portion of the market.

Its already been said in this thread that WoW has less grind, SWTOR is similar to WOW and has less grind as does ESO. So comparative to others Western MMOs its grind is not low.

But grind for what exactly. If ascended gear is the last tier of armor and weapons, and that’s all that is, then I’m done grinding now. People in those other games will be grinding for gear long after I’m done.

So how can this be more grinding?

NiBlack.3149:

As person who just began ascended crafting I don’t mind “some” grind. Honestly the only issue with ascended crafting I have with cloth and probably later with leather.

I’m sort in the same boat as you, I will say this if it wasn’t for my (Credit Card) I highly doubt I would have gotten my currently 1 and only 500 ranked crafting to that point, even maxing 7 characters to 80 salvaging everything that lands in my inventory, I’m still left with resorting to my credit card.

^The curse of the f2p busines model.
owait

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Honestly, at this point it amuses me a lot more how there was the same sort of grind (barring Ascended, which you don’t need short of high level Fractals) in GW1 and that game was okay.

Seriously. Gamer Title Track, Legendary Defender of Ascalon, and Legendary Grandmaster Cartographer.

GW1 didn’t have cash->gold. It had a lot of questionable ideas but still no cash->gold, so the grind was moreso an incredibly poor man’s endgame.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Obtena.7952:

People aren’t recognizing that this is one reason why GW2 does as well as it does. Relative to other games, it’s grind is very low. Therefore it attracts a good portion of the market.

Its already been said in this thread that WoW has less grind, SWTOR is similar to WOW and has less grind as does ESO. So comparative to others Western MMOs its grind is not low.

But grind for what exactly. If ascended gear is the last tier of armor and weapons, and that’s all that is, then I’m done grinding now. People in those other games will be grinding for gear long after I’m done.

So how can this be more grinding?

You know, this is the core of the issue.

I admit there’s something of an issue of perception here.. but ask why people perceive things one way and not the other, you can’t really say. It’s like asking why some people like seafood and others don’t – it’s honestly a matter of genes, of a person’s own innate nature.

And it’s not very useful to argue with such a personal perception; it’s like telling your kid that he should eat his fish and stop grumbling like a spoiled brat. You never know, as a parent, if he’s just being contrary or if he’s one of those people who just happen to not actually like the dang taste and who never ever will.

Sorta the same reason the whole ‘Just try pvp, you’ll like it!’ crowd bugs me. I have tried it, I don’t. Thank you. I’m an adult, stop treating me like a kid who won’t eat his brussel sprouts.

I personally found those other MMOs less grindy, and I’ll tell you why.

I’d prefer an endless succession of periodic small hills to a single giant mountain. The mountain kinda makes my soul go numb in anticipation. The small hill? I can do that. I might know there’s another one coming up in another couple months, but.. it bugged me only after YEARS of playing under that gear grind system.

This one? This ‘one giant mountain, right up front’ system? It just.. right off the bat. And it ain’t just one; it’s one mountain for every alt I care to try on. So.. why shouldn’t I just say no, right at the start? It’s a genuinely unpleasant experience, to me.

Eh. I’m going sour on the whole MMO market. Show me a single player game that subjects it’s players to either periodic bi-or-tri-yearly grinds or single mountain-like grinds. They don’t exist, and they’d get savaged by critics and players alike if they tried.

Multiplayer games? Well. I mean, somehow we’ve built up this cultural tolerance for them doing things that would get singleplayer games utterly mauled. I’m losing my tolerance.

I don’t think it’s a singular attitude, either. Mike O’Brien joked a couple days ago during a HoT interview that if he’d announced a raised level cap or a new gear tier the crowd would have rushed the stage.. and honestly? Obviously he was exaggerating.. a bit.

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne.8563:

But grind for what exactly. If ascended gear is the last tier of armor and weapons, and that’s all that is, then I’m done grinding now. People in those other games will be grinding for gear long after I’m done.

So how can this be more grinding?

You know, this is the core of the issue.

I admit there’s something of an issue of perception here.. but ask why people perceive things one way and not the other, you can’t really say. …

I personally found those other MMOs less grindy, and I’ll tell you why.

I’d prefer an endless succession of periodic small hills to a single giant mountain. The mountain kinda makes my soul go numb in anticipation. The small hill? I can do that. I might know there’s another one coming up in another couple months, but.. it bugged me only after YEARS of playing under that gear grind system.

This one? This ‘one giant mountain, right up front’ system? It just.. right off the bat. And it ain’t just one; it’s one mountain for every alt I care to try on. So.. why shouldn’t I just say no, right at the start? It’s a genuinely unpleasant experience, to me.

I agree with you about this being a factor in how people look at the issue. I’m kind of the opposite side of the coin from you. I came to GW2 specifically because I was looking for an MMO that wouldn’t keep moving the goalposts on me every time I made any progress. For a while, the whole idea that the other games would move on without me if I didn’t play was motivating, but then it just began to seem like a pointless and endless treadmill just to try not to get left behind.

There is definitely stuff I will NEVER achieve in GW2. But so far it seems to me like the designers have made an honest attempt to do a delicate balancing act. With my relatively fresh 80s in Karma and TP exotics it appears I can do and play everything in the game with the exception of dialing up the difficulty setting in fractals. The road ahead is long and daunting, but so far it isn’t discouraging since I don’t feel restricted by the lack of progress and I know I can put it down for a while and pick it up again later without losing any ground.

Of course, motivation is a tricky thing. Once I’ve played the game for a longer period of time, I can see how those same things could be demotivating. “Should I play GW2 and work toward a legendary or go see the new XYZ movie? Eh, I don’t really need a legendary for anything, and I can always get one next month, so lets just go see a movie.”

aerial.7021:

Lheimroo.2947:

Seems to me that WoW got more popular when it dropped grind and eased barriers to entry to raids, and that it got less popular when it added grind and raised barriers to play. Seems to me that that’s the formula for the whole market, in fact.

Close so very close its actually grind vs money, subject player(s) to an increased volume of grind and the player(s) will either choose the grind or pay money to escape said grind (me being one of those people), get the balance just right and you’ll get comments like what we see here, and the actual real story gets forgotten in the fog.

I am pointing to that story for two years. I never forget it in the fog. And if you don’t like it, why support it because by buying your way out of the grind you support the grind. Spend your money on expansions, buy expensive collectors edition if you want to support the game but don’t buy your way out of the grind because that way you only hurt the game.

However I think it’s still great you know this from yourself and are openly telling that here. Other people would try to even fool themselves talking about wanting to support the game and bla bla. Even going as far as there is no grind, the grind they buy themselves out of.

So point for you on that part however I would still suggest working on the first part.

@ Vayne Did you read that?

And this:

NiBlack.3149:

NiBlack.3149:

As person who just began ascended crafting I don’t mind “some” grind. Honestly the only issue with ascended crafting I have with cloth and probably later with leather.

I’m sort in the same boat as you, I will say this if it wasn’t for my (Credit Card) I highly doubt I would have gotten my currently 1 and only 500 ranked crafting to that point, even maxing 7 characters to 80 salvaging everything that lands in my inventory, I’m still left with resorting to my credit card.

?

So maybe it’s not a blind hate, that cash-shop focus dislike of me (as you suggested). Maybe I am not making excuses simply because of my dislike, but what I am saying is simply reality and the dislike is born out of that reality? These people at least seems to proof the grind works for the cash-shop focus. And so is it that hard to think the grind in there because of this reason?

But that would of course made all my statements about this well-founded.

Lheimroo.2947:

Eh. I’m going sour on the whole MMO market. Show me a single player game that subjects it’s players to either periodic bi-or-tri-yearly grinds or single mountain-like grinds. They don’t exist, and they’d get savaged by critics and players alike if they tried.

Oh they exist heard of Skyrim, but why does no one complain? simple we can without discrimination or recrimination cheat, if I want a billion gold its just a tip toe through to Google and its good as done, we have our fun with them and move on.

Devata.6589:

I am pointing to that story for two years. I never forget it in the fog. And if you don’t like it, why support it because by buying you wait out of the grind you support the grind. Spend your money on expansions, buy expensive collectors edition if you want to support the game but don’t buy your way out of the grind because that way you only hurt the game.

I look at that differently, in the end I’m hurting myself so here is my calculation;

Life is finite, mine being half over at 40 time is at a premium and every hour wasted mashing a mouse button for a virtual achievement which doesn’t really exist other than a graphical representation on my screen and a collection of finely adjusted atoms on AreanNet’s hard drive database, is time wasted. Life should not be wasted doing frivolous tasks that in the end amount to ‘work’ not ‘play’.

Zenith.7301:

I don’t need to be lv80 either to do explorables. It’s fun to get carried isn’kitten

You know, i thought about it for awhile if i should respond or not…Because i really dont care about some random no name over the internet, but in the end, i went ahead.

Its nice to not now how well i play isnt it? you can be as insulting as you want! Whats even better is that im usually the player carrying everyone else! with my bad runes and stuff! For dungeons or for pvp(rarely as i hate pvp on everything but my mesmer), regardless of what class i bring. Yesterday i carried a dungeon group of level 35s through AC exp on a necro, you know…the class nobody wants. Just because someone doesn’t run the expensive runes and sigils doesnt meant they suck, or that they cant carry their own weight, or they cant do anything that people wearing said runes can do. all it takes is a little more effort on the players part. itd be nice if you realized that, otherwise keep on being a kitten . in the meantime ill be playing the game, as i always have, trying my hardest and doing very well.