Guild Wars 2

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Sorry about I’m a writer and an editor. Colin is responding to an ever-changing industry, to specific complaints. I’m looking at the original manifesto. The words in it, period. Nothing else.

It’s irrelevant what you are (or were). You have are trying to ignore ArenaNet’s clarification, both from right now and from 4 years ago. In both of those times, and in the Manifesto itself, it has been made clear that you are wrong, and that your interpretation is flawed.

Unfortunatelly, the grind is real, and ascended gear is its proof.

No, I’m looking at the evidence of the original manifesto. That’s all I’ve done for years. The evidence of the original manifesto and what was said not only in it, but to clarify it in the months immediately after.

Your definition of grind is definitely real. I only question it’s relevance.

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

I could care less what they say because my reality is when I log in and play the game and see what I can do without full Ascended setups.

Then why did you even post in this thread to begin with? Seems to me the only one who wanted to argue for the sake of arguing was yourself, since you apparently don’t care about any of this in the first place.

Also it’s funny that you’re now saying you couldn’t care less what ANet says when just a moment ago you were arguing that it’s what ANet says that ultimately matters.

Anet’s word matters. When I say I don’t care what it is, that’s me saying it doesn’t impact or matter when I play the game. That’s not a contradiction. One is about control, the other is about impact.

Anet can say they intend to replace Charr with pink panda characters. That doesn’t impact my time ingame until it’s actually IN the game. It matters to me because I think it would be stupid to make that change and I don’t think I would like that change but until it actually HAPPENS, I’m going to enjoy this game as much as I do until it does.

I’m just presenting arguments for why the game shouldn’t change based on the premise it’s ‘grindy’ because I don’t feel it is. I think such a change would simply be a gesture to grasp at players with one foot out the door already. I think Anet shouldn’t waste their time with those people. They should develop the game for the market they are targeting and if the market is there, they will have their share. The game can’t be everything to everyone.

Even by Anet’s interpretation of the word “Grind”…
Stating that they have a “No grind philosophy” is completely false…

- To obtain the best gear / stats, a character NEEDS ascended.
- To get Ascended gear, you NEED to grind mats for crafting, or gold for buying
- This is a very time consuming and boring grind.
- This is just using Anet’s interpretation of the word.

GW2 does not have a lot of grind… but to say they have “No Grind” is false.
Maybe they should start saying that Anet has a “Low Grind Philosophy”, then
maybe people wouldn’t get so upset.

Stark.1350:

Funny really. If I were maxed out in a game in two weeks, I would be bored out of my mind and not want to play it either.

Regarding this quote. There is a point with it and this seems to be what Anet seems to focus on. One of the “issues” I’ve heard was ANet complaining that players got into exotics much quicker than they anticipated.

There is certainly truth in it. People will get bored if they got everything there is to get and done everything there is to do. There needs to be a goal for players to strive for. But there is another side to this coin. I haven’t got that many hours 1900 hours across 755 days but when, after all that time, the only ascended I have are trinkets on just two characters (still missing both accessories on one). The other side of the coin is when it takes too long, people get fed up and quit.

Obtena.7952:

I think Anet shouldn’t waste their time with those people. They should develop the game for the market they are targeting and if the market is there, they will have their share. The game can’t be everything to everyone.

You’re right.

Which is why Ascended shouldn’t exist in the first place at all. Because that’s not the market that ANet was ever targeting to begin with.

But ANet targeted them, and now we’re stuck with the Ascended Grind in a “no-grind philosphy” game. And as long as Ascended exists in its current form, we’re going to have yet another MMO where you still wind up grinding for BiS. Which this game was not supposed to be.

And, for the record, those people currently with one foot out the door that you don’t want ANet targeting? A good number of them are the original targets of this game. Not the people who want gear progression and grindy, time consuming BiS gear.

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

I think Anet shouldn’t waste their time with those people. They should develop the game for the market they are targeting and if the market is there, they will have their share. The game can’t be everything to everyone.

You’re right.

Which is why Ascended shouldn’t exist in the first place at all. Because that’s not the market that ANet was ever targeting to begin with.

But ANet targeted them, and now we’re stuck with the Ascended Grind in a “no-grind philosphy” game. And as long as Ascended exists in its current form, we’re going to have yet another MMO where you still wind up grinding for BiS. Which this game was not supposed to be.

And, for the record, those people currently with one foot out the door that you don’t want ANet targeting? A good number of them are the original targets of this game. Not the people who want gear progression and grindy, time consuming BiS gear.

I won’t argue the Ascended point. I’m on the fence there. I agree it didn’t fit with the game because of the targeted market but on the other hand, it’s not needed so the impact of it’s existence is low for the market the game targets. I just feel it’s there if you want it, but it’s OK if you don’t have it.

I can’t comment on the things that define the people who are on the outs because I don’t have information telling me why they are leaving or unhappy with the game. I know you don’t have that information either.

What I do know is what I already stated. If they focus on the players they want to have and do a good job, they will keep and build on a strong, loyal playerbase. If players are flighty enough to leave over the questionable claim that the game is grindy, those players likely have other issues pushing them out the door, even if the grind was eliminated. Grind, especially the self-inflicted kind offered by this game, is not a motivator for the targeted players to leave the game. It’s a bad move to placate exiting players.

Obtena.7952:

If players are flighty enough to leave over the questionable claim that the game is grindy, those players likely have other issues pushing them out the door. It’s a bad move to placate them.

It’s flighty to leave a game that can’t seem to choose a vision and keep to said vision? It’s flighty to leave a game that claims it wants to have a no-grind philosophy, but completely contradicts said philosophy with things like Ascended Gear?

One must wonder what you consider beyond flighty to be then.

Obtena.7952:

I’m on the fence there.

Per your own words, you shouldn’t be. Ascended was introduced because of “flighty” people. And you don’t want ANet to cater to “flighty” people.

But they already have catered to flighty people! So I say bring on the flighty catering! Maybe we can get the game back to its original intended goals!

Gene Archer.8560:

It’s flighty to leave a game that can’t seem to choose a vision and keep to said vision? It’s flighty to leave a game that claims it wants to have a no-grind philosophy, but completely contradicts said philosophy with things like Ascended Gear?

I don’t see the contraction that you are talking about. Ascended gear (the hard to get stuff) doesn’t contradict Anet’s no-grind philosophy because it’s not needed or doesn’t exclude players from content, with the exception of the higher level fractals. Even if you need it for higher level fractals, the progression for obtaining it is on par with fractal progression.

I don’t agree that Ascended gear was introduced for flighty people, so there’s no problem with me being neutral about it’s existence. That’s just your poor association.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t see the contraction that you are talking about.

Anet’s “no-grind philosophy” includes BiS gear. Ascended is BiS gear. But obtaining Ascended right now is a grind.

Ergo, ANet has contradicted its “no-grind philosophy”.

It doesn’t matter if you personally need said gear or not. All that matters, per your own arguments, is ANet’s intention. Their intention is that BiS gear is easily obtained by everyone. Their intention is that gear not be grindy. Clearly their intention and view is that gear shouldn’t be grindy because gear is something that players need. Ascended is gear, therefore Ascended is needed according to ANet.

But so long as Ascended exists in its current form, they have contradicted their philosophy.

Your complete and utter inability to see the contradiction that is staring you right in the face doesn’t mean the contradiction isn’t there. I’ll be able to stop running in circles when you open your eyes.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t agree that Ascended gear was introduced for flighty people,

You can disagree all you want, but it was introduced for the people that want gear progression in their games. At the time of its introduction, those were the people leaving the game.

So at the time of its introduction, ANet catered to the “flighty” people. The people that were leaving just because Exotic was the final tier, and it was a final tier that was easy to get.

If those people weren’t flighty, then neither are the current people.

I think I get this now. And people like to ask for the impossible.

Each person here, individually, wants anet to design the game around THEIR needs, THEIR definitions of what is grind, THEIR wants. If anet fails to meet those standards, then its horrible, grindy, and unfun.

This thread is just starting to turn into a shouting match between people and clashing of ideals, all failing to accept one thing, anet’s definition. Apparently, just as we can’t accept each others, we can’t accept their. Tell me, in the example with DDO, what happens if someone says 20 times is too much of a grind? What about 10? Where is the line drawn?

Now, ask yourselves this. What content have you been denied? What haven’t you n able to play because you don’t have full ascended for, other than the obvious high level fractals? Did people fail the LS because of no ascended? Did people fail dungeons because of no ascended? What are you denied exactly without ascended? People gloat over gw1 with story and the pve and apparently never complained about do the same dungeons over and over again for collecting items for rare gear that was only for looks. How is that any different than now?

I could mention how path of exile or warframe have greater grind than gw2, but it wouldn’t matter. They would be dismissed in some way as they wouldn’t match with someone elses opinion.

In the end, what matters is, are you having fun? Yes? Great! Keep playing! Voice concerns or problems, but don’t act like you are a boss. A customer is a customer. Anet will try to keep you, but if demands become absurb, then its best to just ignore.

If you aren’t having fun, and if you feel anet is just ignoring you, then its time to just leave. Logging on, posting on forums, is still showing them you have interest. If you want to really see change, you need to stop showing up as numbers. TESO went b2p because not enough people signing up for subscription, rift and SWTOR went f2p after being buy and sub because of low numbers.

If anets numbers are in the area they want them, then they won’t worry. But continuing to post on forums or log in is saying the opposite to them.

But hey, why does my opinion matter? I’m having fun playing how the game is right now, which is taboo to everyone else apparently. I’m just the odd one out.

Fafnir.5124:

Full outfit of exotic only costs 20g too. And only way to get challenge play with only white gear. Only difficulty in the game is from Lag.

You have to rune that gear, and the runes come at 6-12g a piece.

Zenith.7301:

You have to rune that gear, and the runes come at 6-12g a piece.

Depends on the runes you want, just saying…

Dante.1763:

Zenith.7301:

You have to rune that gear, and the runes come at 6-12g a piece.

Depends on the runes you want, just saying…

You know what the runes that are expected are.

Zenith.7301:

You know what the runes that are expected are.

Pirate? Oh, no wait, I know, Rata Sum!

Vayne.8563:

No, I’m looking at the evidence of the original manifesto. That’s all I’ve done for years. The evidence of the original manifesto and what was said not only in it, but to clarify it in the months immediately after.

…All of which have never even come close to saying that “grind” means only “level grind”. The Manifesto said something different, the clarification released concurrently said differently, and now Colin is saying differently.

For years, you have been wrong. That has easily been proved a few times now.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

No, I’m looking at the evidence of the original manifesto. That’s all I’ve done for years. The evidence of the original manifesto and what was said not only in it, but to clarify it in the months immediately after.

…All of which have never even come close to saying that “grind” means only “level grind”. The Manifesto said something different, the clarification released concurrently said differently, and now Colin is saying differently.

For years, you have been wrong. That has easily been proved a few times now.

Let me know when you can prove Colin wrote the manifesto, k thanks.

Vayne.8563:

Let me know when you can prove Colin wrote the manifesto, k thanks.

Do you really think the Game Director, who spoke the paragraph we are discussing, didn’t have a say on those lines? K thanks.

You are gasping at straws instead of admiting you were wrong, and have been wrong all this time. ArenaNet’s definition of grind (and do notice it’s not “Colin’s definition”) has always been different from “level grind”. As has always been obvious.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

Let me know when you can prove Colin wrote the manifesto, k thanks.

Do you really think the Game Director, who spoke the paragraph we are discussing, didn’t have a say on those lines? K thanks.

You are gasping at straws instead of admiting you were wrong, and have been wrong all this time. ArenaNet’s definition of grind (and do notice it’s not “Colin’s definition”) has always been different from “level grind”. As has always been obvious.

I’m saying that the game designer, who read those lines, probably didn’t nickle and dime every term like the fan base does. What makes you think he went to whoever wrote it and said, exactly what do you mean by grind.

The manifesto was a statement of intent made long before the game got out. It was a way to give an idea of where they wanted to go.

I’m almost positive they didn’t let lawyers parse it and argue it’s relative merits before producing it.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto was a statement of intent made long before the game got out. It was a way to give an idea of where they wanted to go.

Yep. They said they didn’t want players to grind, and made it clear they meant grind in a broad meaning. It was something very easily understood, that didn’t really need laywers to define its terms, despite how a very small number of players never understood it and still refuse to understand it even with multiple clarifications from ArenaNet. They have said then, just as they have said now, that “grind” means far more than level grind. Trying to change the subject won’t change this fact.

Stark.1350:

HEY ANET. I WANT TO BE HANDED EVERYTHING AND TO BE GEARED OUT IN TWO WEEKS. ME-ME-ME, NOW-NOW-NOW. I can’t bear to work for anything and have long term goals.

That’s the culture you live in but I don’t think its rooted in quite where your addressing your statement.

First we’ll assume some basic facts; This is a game, not a job thus the usage the word “work” is out of place as we don’t play games to “work” but to relax have fun entertain ourselves, the definition of casual means different things to different people because some have more time than others do.

The problem is balance you cannot call something casual if it contains hardcore content (even a tiny bit) because that can ostracize a casual player(s) experience because his/her time is limited, one thing that should -never- be behind grind is gear when it comes to casual players.

Zenith.7301:

Dante.1763:

Zenith.7301:

You have to rune that gear, and the runes come at 6-12g a piece.

Depends on the runes you want, just saying…

You know what the runes that are expected are.

I do? Huh…im sorry…i must be playing wrong…my eles armor set cost about…maybe 12 silver for the runes, all of them…There are other ways to play you know, beside whats set in stone…you dont need those uber expensive runes, you dont need ascended Armor or weapons to be able to play the game just fine. better than fine if you know what you are doing. i have no ascended armor on any of my characters, and i can handle every game mode including Fractals and PVP, and the harder world bosses without trouble.. So…and heres the big part… for me their no grind policy works fine. if you want ascended armor, obviously its not, as you have to grind for it..its really all in the interpretation of what you see as grind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It has little to do with whether the game is grindy or not (this is something which can be debated for about fifty pages, and my opinion has been noted several times thus far). It has to do with the general attitude of “they deserve it”.

Ahhh, I think I’ve located the disconnect. That’s not the sentiment I’m implying at all, which might not necessarily be clear. For my view, its far less a matter of “they deserve it” than “nobody can fix it but yourself”.

To the point of the game seeming too grindy, there are some things I regard as being way too grindy to ever appeal to me (looking at you, current legendary acquisition method), but that, to me, isn’t a problem because I don’t have to do that.

If I chose to do that, knowing that I loath that sort of grind, and I was angry and frustrated throughout the entire process? That’s where I’d have only my own butt to kick for it – that, right there, would be be having chosen to take crap I knew I didn’t want and wasn’t going to be happy accepting.

Nobody’s fault but my own, in that case.

I have no idea what you do or what you go through in life on the RL side, though believe you me, I have nothing but sympathy for the general morass of hardships and struggles people of every stripe get saddled with. My general philosophy, poorly elaborated upon and lending well to misinterpretation as it was, is thus -

Its my choice as to what I’m going to do about most anything that comes along. Nobody is or even can be responsible for my choices but me. If crap comes along that I hate, but I don’t do what I could to change it or alter my view of the circumstance by coming at it from another view, I have nobody but myself to blame for not having made the attempt.

Nobody deserves to be mistreated, nope. I fully agree with you on that. Here in the context of the game of GW2, if someone knows they find too many things to be too grindy, why would they force themselves to play it?

At some point, a person has to take responsibility for where they’re at and what they’re allowing to happen to them, especially in an environment that’s purely elective like this one.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto was a statement of intent made long before the game got out. It was a way to give an idea of where they wanted to go.

Yep. They said they didn’t want players to grind, and made it clear they meant grind in a broad meaning. It was something very easily understood, that didn’t really need laywers to define its terms, despite how a very small number of players never understood it and still refuse to understand it even with multiple clarifications from ArenaNet. They have said then, just as they have said now, that “grind” means far more than level grind. Trying to change the subject won’t change this fact.

Some of us looked at the entire paragraph and figured out what it meant from that context. Some of us took a pre-existing definition in our heads and ignored the context.

That’s all it is, and that’s all it will ever be.

Ascended gear was definitely added as a way to keep the “BiS chasers” playing.

BUT… ANet also did it in a really clever way. Because Ascended gear requires lots of lower tier mats, it keeps demand for those lower tier mats high. In another conventional MMO, prices for non-max level stuff eventually fall to near zero because high level characters have no more need for low level stuff. But this way, low level mats are still in demand, and thus provide incentive for max level players to still visit lower level maps. It’s a really smart and ingenious way to ensure that playing anywhere in the game is still profitable, and newer players/lower level characters are also compensated appropriately in a way that doesn’t see them fall too far behind the veterans.

So yes, while I still would have preferred not having Ascended gear, I understand that it now serves a very important role in the GW2 economy, and is actually a good thing for the game at large.

So they started with a “no grind” philosophy and but then added grind and (disingenuously?) said it was optional.

Honestly, I see only ascended being only relevant to PvE, but specifically fractals. That’s why there’s only agony in fractals and not anywhere else in the game.
For me, exotic is BiS simply because affordable and can easily be switched out for different playstyles or meta changes.
You can’t do that easily with ascended gear. Having one set of full ascended must have been a pain in the kitten to get, but whoops a significant change happens in the game and your set is nothing more than a wet blanket.

I can definitely see people making a “grind problem” for themselves if they want to use ascended gear outside of fractals or across alts. Seems like they want ascended gear to be as easily obtainable as exotics. What’s next? Legendaries? Well what do ya know, precursor hunt is just around the corner…
Where did that “I wanna grind!” or “I wanna be hardcore!” minority go to? Seems they shriveled up and left the rest of us to deal with this ascended contradiction.

aerial.7021:

Stark.1350:

HEY ANET. I WANT TO BE HANDED EVERYTHING AND TO BE GEARED OUT IN TWO WEEKS. ME-ME-ME, NOW-NOW-NOW. I can’t bear to work for anything and have long term goals.

That’s the culture you live in but I don’t think its rooted in quite where your addressing your statement.

First we’ll assume some basic facts; This is a game, not a job thus the usage the word “work” is out of place as we don’t play games to “work” but to relax have fun entertain ourselves, the definition of casual means different things to different people because some have more time than others do.

The problem is balance you cannot call something casual if it contains hardcore content (even a tiny bit) because that can ostracize a casual player(s) experience because his/her time is limited, one thing that should -never- be behind grind is gear when it comes to casual players.

I’ve always stood by this too. Gaming is definitely entertainment, if i feel like it’s a labor i move on.

I really don’t have much of a problem with ascended gear, but i get why people do. Calling it working though, that’s a stretch. As far as i can tell though, people will enjoy getting gear they want. I just wish they’d separate the stats from gear in some way, either by being able to always select a stat or change out insignias. I think that would greatly help toward making ascended feel a bit less grindy.

Dante.1763:

Zenith.7301:

Dante.1763:

Zenith.7301:

You have to rune that gear, and the runes come at 6-12g a piece.

Depends on the runes you want, just saying…

You know what the runes that are expected are.

I do? Huh…im sorry…i must be playing wrong…my eles armor set cost about…maybe 12 silver for the runes, all of them…There are other ways to play you know, beside whats set in stone…you dont need those uber expensive runes, you dont need ascended Armor or weapons to be able to play the game just fine. better than fine if you know what you are doing. i have no ascended armor on any of my characters, and i can handle every game mode including Fractals and PVP, and the harder world bosses without trouble.. So…and heres the big part… for me their no grind policy works fine. if you want ascended armor, obviously its not, as you have to grind for it..its really all in the interpretation of what you see as grind.

I don’t need to be lv80 either to do explorables. It’s fun to get carried isn’kitten

munkiman.3068:

aerial.7021:

Stark.1350:

HEY ANET. I WANT TO BE HANDED EVERYTHING AND TO BE GEARED OUT IN TWO WEEKS. ME-ME-ME, NOW-NOW-NOW. I can’t bear to work for anything and have long term goals.

That’s the culture you live in but I don’t think its rooted in quite where your addressing your statement.

First we’ll assume some basic facts; This is a game, not a job thus the usage the word “work” is out of place as we don’t play games to “work” but to relax have fun entertain ourselves, the definition of casual means different things to different people because some have more time than others do.

The problem is balance you cannot call something casual if it contains hardcore content (even a tiny bit) because that can ostracize a casual player(s) experience because his/her time is limited, one thing that should -never- be behind grind is gear when it comes to casual players.

I’ve always stood by this too. Gaming is definitely entertainment, if i feel like it’s a labor i move on.

I really don’t have much of a problem with ascended gear, but i get why people do. Calling it working though, that’s a stretch. As far as i can tell though, people will enjoy getting gear they want. I just wish they’d separate the stats from gear in some way, either by being able to always select a stat or change out insignias. I think that would greatly help toward making ascended feel a bit less grindy.

It should be the way it was in Guild Wars 1, I don’t mean stats themselves but how armor functioned, for those that I haven’t played Guild Wars 1 (what is wrong with you?), by the time you’d got to Droknar’s Forge following the ‘story’ you could afford the highest stat armor available to anyone in the game, you didn’t have to follow the story-line either you could get runs from Beacon’s Perch to Droknar’s Forge at any level.

If you wanted affordable exotic armor or grinding obsidian armor it just gave you a different look, so the point I am making here is stats should never be behind grind on a casual game.

My problem I suppose is a little unique in a sense I’m not a fan of any of the styles of ascended armor, so now I need to craft a set of armor I’m not a fan of and then to transmute it to look like exotic stat armor or even lower.

I’m sorry I appear to be critical of the game the truth is it is what is I adore the game I just wish people would get over this mentality of; “want something? work for it” attitude in the real world this absolutely applies, in our virtual games for relaxing entertainment it has no place what-so-ever.

Vayne.8563:

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

“Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on” there is a huge difference between having a boring brainless gold-grind to get everything and things to work to. If I again was to compare that to those other games the hunt for the skins (mini’s, wapons and armor, mounts, toys and other fun items, leveling crafts all about that sort of items) that could keep me busy for a long time, likely up until the next expansion.

If I compare this to GW2 that whole game-play is completely gone because I am not going to do this boring grind. Nonetheless the total amount of time you spend does not have to be so very different. The journey is different. The not so grindy one is better, while it still has parts of farming in it.

“too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.” Just have a skin? It was not an endless gold grind as in GW2 (while usually you did have that option as well for many items) but you for sure did not just get it. And why use the term ‘brainwashed’ why then not use the term ‘spoiled’ (with fun way to obtain those skins) but then again, that is not a negative thing so that’s why you use the term ‘brainwashed’?

“You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.” That’s true while again common sense is useful here. Then again, you made clear you mixed up the terms (boring endless gold) grind with ‘things to do’. And then yes common sense is on your side. People will likely leave sooner when there is nothing to do then when there is something to do. But again, things to do, does not mean it has to be and endless boring gold grind. While I agree it will likely involve some farming as repeating content you can almost not get rid of in a game if you want to keep people busy for a longer time.

One thing I noticed in the guild is that you always have people more interested in specific parts of the game. The longest to stay where the WvW / PvP people. The cosmetics where one of the fastest to leave. Those now left are the ones not really interested in specific things but who just like the social interaction. Just in general what I see. I know Vayne, you have a very special guild where everything is different.

Vayne.8563:

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

Name one game in America or even in the UK where the grind produced millions of players? One. There isn’t one so I know the answer already and trust me I read about every single one of them including indies on multiple news sites. In fact, those with major grinds say for example, Wildstar, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that western audiences hate grind and that it always lowers the population. The population is directly affected also by how high the RNG is. Archeage anyone? Seriously, there are countless other examples out there.

Stark.1350:

HEY ANET. I WANT TO BE HANDED EVERYTHING AND TO BE GEARED OUT IN TWO WEEKS. ME-ME-ME, NOW-NOW-NOW. I can’t bear to work for anything and have long term goals.

And I suppose you’ll tell us all next that this is somehow better than “ANET I WANT THE GAME TO BE JUST LIKE MY TABLETOP MMO AND I WANT EXACTLY 0 ADVANCEMENTS IN UI, NO BALANCE IN PVE BECAUSE PVP SHOULD RULE EVERYTHING, AND I WANT TO WHINE UNTIL YOU MAKE THE GAME ALL ABOUT MY TINY PORTION OF THE POPULATION!”

Because that’s already happened you see, Nov 2012. Asking the devs to make a 180 in their PVE designs to make it for a larger audience is neither selfish nor is it part of the crowd that rushes through things. All you’d have to do is spend five minutes searching the forums and google and you’d find that not only does the casual crowd NOT rush through anything, but that they go after the gear they like that looks good. Also, you’d find that the people who can’t wait are part of the elitist groups who are always in a rush through dungeons, who advocate for Zerker builds, and who are nostalgic for all games to return to the mess we had in 2004 when MMOs were in their infancy.

And this is all outside of the fact that their early interviews indicated that they didn’t want their game to be all about a gear grind.

Your myth is broken you can stop spreading it now thanks.

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

Name one game in America or even in the UK where the grind produced millions of players? One. There isn’t one so I know the answer already and trust me I read about every single one of them including indies on multiple news sites. In fact, those with major grinds say for example, Wildstar, have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that western audiences hate grind and that it always lowers the population. The population is directly affected also by how high the RNG is. Archeage anyone? Seriously, there are countless other examples out there.

Farmville. Thanks.

Obtena.7952:

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

I could care less what they say because my reality is when I log in and play the game and see what I can do without full Ascended setups.

Then why did you even post in this thread to begin with? Seems to me the only one who wanted to argue for the sake of arguing was yourself, since you apparently don’t care about any of this in the first place.

Also it’s funny that you’re now saying you couldn’t care less what ANet says when just a moment ago you were arguing that it’s what ANet says that ultimately matters.

Anet’s word matters. When I say I don’t care what it is, that’s me saying it doesn’t impact or matter when I play the game. That’s not a contradiction. One is about control, the other is about impact.

Anet can say they intend to replace Charr with pink panda characters. That doesn’t impact my time ingame until it’s actually IN the game. It matters to me because I think it would be stupid to make that change and I don’t think I would like that change but until it actually HAPPENS, I’m going to enjoy this game as much as I do until it does.

I’m just presenting arguments for why the game shouldn’t change based on the premise it’s ‘grindy’ because I don’t feel it is. I think such a change would simply be a gesture to grasp at players with one foot out the door already. I think Anet shouldn’t waste their time with those people. They should develop the game for the market they are targeting and if the market is there, they will have their share. The game can’t be everything to everyone.

“I think such a change would simply be a gesture to grasp at players with one foot out the door already. I think Anet shouldn’t waste their time with those people. They should develop the game for the market they are targeting "

Or players who even left and will come back with HoT and then might stay if it’s better.
The market is people who are into cosmetics and that’s the group who will find the most grind.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

To those who claim that grind lowers the population, there’s evidence it works both ways. Not enough grind can lower the population as well.

Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on and too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.

That’s the problem Anet ran into when they made the choice to add ascended gear.

You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.

“Anet was losing people who ran out of stuff to work on” there is a huge difference between having a boring brainless gold-grind to get everything and things to work to. If I again was to compare that to those other games the hunt for the skins (mini’s, wapons and armor, mounts, toys and other fun items, leveling crafts all about that sort of items) that could keep me busy for a long time, likely up until the next expansion.

now if I compare this to GW2 that while game-play is completely gone because I am not going to do this boring grind. Nonetheless the total amount of time you spend does not have to be so very different. The journey is different. The not so grindy one is better, while it still has parts of farming in it.

“too many people have been brainwashed by other games to think that they can just have a skin end game.” Just have a skin? It was not an endless gold grind as in GW2 (while usually you did have that option as well for many items) but you for sure did not just get it. And why use the term ‘brainwashed’ why then not use the term ‘spoiled’ (with fun way to obtain those skins) but then again, that is not a negative thing so that’s why you use the term ‘brainwashed’?

“You’re making assumption that more people leave because of grind than stay because of it. We simply don’t know that’s true.” That’s true while again common sense is useful here. The again, you made clear you mixed up the terms (boring endless gold) grind with ‘thing to do’. And then yes common sense is on your side. People will likely leave sooner when there is nothing to do then when there is something to do. But again, things to do, does not mean it has to be and endless boring gold grind. While I agree is will likely involve farming as repeating content you can almost not get rid of in a game if you want to keep people busy for a longer time.

One thing I noticed in the guild is that you always have people more interested in specific parts of the game. The longest to stay where the WvW / PvP people. The cosmetics where one of the fastest to leave. Those now left are the ones not really interested in specific things but just like the social interaction. Just in general what I see. I know Vayne, you have a very special guild where everything is different.

Maybe my guild isn’t special. Maybe there are a lot of guilds like mine out there. I seem to run into people from those guilds quite frequently, so it’s likely my guild isn’t the only one.

I see plenty of posts that agree with what I say on these forums and none of them people who post them…well sometimes one of them, is in my guild. The rest of the people posting agreement are in other guilds.

Your attempts to discredit me with those types of generalities are pretty silly. And that’s all they are.

For months and months you’ve been banging on about the one single issue that you’re obsessed about, and everything you say comes back to that single issue. It’s the root of all evil to you.

It doesn’t make any of your arguments stronger.

SenorMoody.5908:

GW2 does not have a lot of grind… but to say they have “No Grind” is false.
Maybe they should start saying that Anet has a “Low Grind Philosophy”, then
maybe people wouldn’t get so upset.

That is still depending on what game-play you prefer the most. It might not have a lot of grind for the things you like to do. It has a lot, like the most I have ever seen, for people who like to hunt for cosmetics and other fun items. In fact nearly all those items are only viable obtainable by grinding gold (a never ending grind) with a few exceptions like Liadri that is talked so positively about by many, no wonder.

Lheimroo.2947:

They get an ‘E’ for effort on this one, but if we’re going to split hairs about it like we’re conniving boys trying to wheedle our way under our date’s prom dress, I’m disinterested in having the conversation at all.

SNORT.

Oh my god, thank you for making my day. Yes, you said what I wanted to say with all the comedic vitriol it deserved. I’d buy you a beer, dude.

Seconded.

Naiasonod – you gathered all of my sentiments in one masterful and brilliantly eloquent piece of a forum post, breaking down all that is wrong with the pve side of the game whilst spicing things up with splendidly witty comments.
Thank you.

Obtena.7952:

GW2 provides it’s own experience.

You mean, anti-experience.

First off, I don’t personally find this to be a grindy game. I play the content I want to play and get gold and other rewards that I can use to further my long term goals. It may not be the most rewarding content, but I’m not in a hurry and I’m not forced to do specific content to get rewards I can use (even if it’s just gold).

To my mind, the “no grind philosophy” is more of a development ideal than a statement of fact. It’s the ideal they try to hold themselves to, and being human, they will sometimes fail to meet those ideals fully.

So I feel that the posters in this thread who are trying to prove the philosophy is false are missing the point, and would be better off directing their efforts towards highlighting the areas of the game that fall short of that ideal and offering constructive suggestions on possible improvements.

Again, I don’t find this to be a grindy game, but that doesn’t mean I’m trying to invalidate anybody else’s experience, I’ve just been following this thread and am tired of the bickering crowding out the reasonable points that other posters are making that could help ANet improve the game.

It’s not a grindy game. Actually, it’s the least grindy MMO I’ve ever played. There is more than one way to obtain materials. We have a trading post for instance, that offers a lot of items. Among them are materials required for ascended gear. There are even more ways to get gold to pay for those items.

Players always want the most efficient way to get their hands on stuff, and so they start grinding. That is their choice, not Anets. Perhaps players complaining about grinding need to abandon this maximum-efficiency way of thinking. There is plenty of opportunity in life to apply this kind of logic. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, you’re either very young or very lucky. It’s just a bad way of thinking when you’re relaxing and doing stuff for fun. That is still what gaming is about, right?

Obtena.7952:

Gene Archer.8560:

Obtena.7952:

I think Anet shouldn’t waste their time with those people. They should develop the game for the market they are targeting and if the market is there, they will have their share. The game can’t be everything to everyone.

You’re right.

Which is why Ascended shouldn’t exist in the first place at all. Because that’s not the market that ANet was ever targeting to begin with.

But ANet targeted them, and now we’re stuck with the Ascended Grind in a “no-grind philosphy” game. And as long as Ascended exists in its current form, we’re going to have yet another MMO where you still wind up grinding for BiS. Which this game was not supposed to be.

And, for the record, those people currently with one foot out the door that you don’t want ANet targeting? A good number of them are the original targets of this game. Not the people who want gear progression and grindy, time consuming BiS gear.

If they focus on the players they want to have and do a good job, they will keep and build on a strong, loyal playerbase. If players are flighty enough to leave over the questionable claim that the game is grindy, those players likely have other issues pushing them out the door, even if the grind was eliminated. Grind, especially the self-inflicted kind offered by this game, is not a motivator for the targeted players to leave the game.

You make 3 mistakes here.
1 How much you might want to deny it, the grind is not really questionable. There is an extreme amount of grind (while the amount of grind a person can put up with is personal) for specific parts of the game, especially the cosmetics part.

2 Is it self-inflicted grind? If they are leaving they are not self-inflicting the grind anymore do they? It’s likely not as simply as people say ‘oow it’s to grindy I leave’. It’s likely more so that what they like to do is grindy so they get tired of it, not self-inflicting any more grind (buying your way out of it also is boring), but then have the problem something they like (hunting items) is then taken away from the game for them, so there preferred end-game is pretty much gone so get bored with the game sooner and leave.

3 It for sure is a motivator for the targeted players to leave the game for this reason. See part 2 and combine that with the fact that the targeted players are those more interested in cosmetics then stats. The main goal for this game is a (well was) purely cosmetic item. They target exact these players.

Or do you think there targeted players are those being able to put up with a lot of grind? Because it isn’t. Let’s face it, they want people to skip the grind by buying the gold or the items from the cash-shop. They target people who like cosmetics and then try to make money on those cosmetics but by doing so remove the game-play (or make it its boring grind) around those cosmetics. Eventually scaring those same people they targeted away.
It’s something you will notice more in the long run (this I have been saying for about 2 years) and at this moment we are reaching the ‘long run’ point. HoT is there possibility to fix this, get those people back and hold them. But it will require them to rethink their current payment-model.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Now, to point out back what I started with: Nobody deserves to be forcibly treated poorly. If they choose to? That’s their choice, and I would pity them for choosing it if there was a better option. But to say they deserve it because they didn’t insist on better or nothing? That’s the point I found insulting – a thinly veiled “they got what’s coming to them”. No, no, I reject the philosophy which says such and offers no pity, no compassion, but only contempt.

I’m really sorry. I know where you’re coming from and to a point, I could relate. But that point . . . no, no that’s a place I cannot plant my feet to stand. I think people deserve better.

It has little to do with whether the game is grindy or not (this is something which can be debated for about fifty pages, and my opinion has been noted several times thus far). It has to do with the general attitude of “they deserve it”.

In other words, if you choose to willingly tolerate something (unnecessary) you don’t find acceptable, you’ve got no case to argue. It’s irrelevant whether the source of ill-treatment is intentional or not. If you cannot tolerate something, either change it/contribute to changing it, or accept it us such and all the crap that comes with it. So it’s entirely correct and warranted to say ‘you had it coming’.

Pity or compassion only find somewhat of a place in all this if the ‘victim’ had no other option but to accept it against its wishes/needs. However this game does not fall into that category.

Serophous.9085:

I think I get this now. And people like to ask for the impossible.

Each person here, individually, wants anet to design the game around THEIR needs, THEIR definitions of what is grind, THEIR wants. If anet fails to meet those standards, then its horrible, grindy, and unfun.

This thread is just starting to turn into a shouting match between people and clashing of ideals, all failing to accept one thing, anet’s definition. Apparently, just as we can’t accept each others, we can’t accept their. Tell me, in the example with DDO, what happens if someone says 20 times is too much of a grind? What about 10? Where is the line drawn?

Now, ask yourselves this. What content have you been denied? What haven’t you n able to play because you don’t have full ascended for, other than the obvious high level fractals? Did people fail the LS because of no ascended? Did people fail dungeons because of no ascended? What are you denied exactly without ascended? People gloat over gw1 with story and the pve and apparently never complained about do the same dungeons over and over again for collecting items for rare gear that was only for looks. How is that any different than now?

I could mention how path of exile or warframe have greater grind than gw2, but it wouldn’t matter. They would be dismissed in some way as they wouldn’t match with someone elses opinion.

In the end, what matters is, are you having fun? Yes? Great! Keep playing! Voice concerns or problems, but don’t act like you are a boss. A customer is a customer. Anet will try to keep you, but if demands become absurb, then its best to just ignore.

If you aren’t having fun, and if you feel anet is just ignoring you, then its time to just leave. Logging on, posting on forums, is still showing them you have interest. If you want to really see change, you need to stop showing up as numbers. TESO went b2p because not enough people signing up for subscription, rift and SWTOR went f2p after being buy and sub because of low numbers.

If anets numbers are in the area they want them, then they won’t worry. But continuing to post on forums or log in is saying the opposite to them.

But hey, why does my opinion matter? I’m having fun playing how the game is right now, which is taboo to everyone else apparently. I’m just the odd one out.

“Each person here, individually, wants anet to design the game around THEIR needs, THEIR definitions of what is grind, THEIR wants. If anet fails to meet those standards, then its horrible, grindy, and unfun.” No, basically only Vayne was going on about the definition. The only other discussion about the meaning of grind was if ‘need’ would be required. Overall it’s clear what people consider grind and there is also a market of MMO’s you can compare things to.

The only real difference between people here seems the one who want BiS gear and who do not want that to be grindy, and the cosmetics people who do not want that to be grindy. So the common thing (about tose complaining aobut this) here is that the game is grindy (at parts extremely, also when put against what the market does and Colin agreed there was grind) and people want that grind to be gone or less. That’s the common denominator here.
No need to design the game around every persons personal demands.

Anet’s ‘definition’ was about what fitted in the ‘no grind philosophy’ what is interesting to know but not relevant for the ask for less grind (also of types of grind that do not fall within the current no grind philosophy).

“all failing to accept one thing, anet’s definition.” There was only one person not accepting Anet’s definition / Colin’s post and that was Vayve. For the rest again this is interesting but irrelevant for the question for less grind.

“What content have you been denied?” A fun and direct way of hunting and collecting most of those cosmetics, other than the boring gold-grind.

About the ‘you should leave or else you still show interest’. We all still have interest and at the same time also a lot of people do leave. I see the payment-model as the biggest reason for this so I will not spend any money on the cash-shop but will on expansion. That also shows up in their numbers.

“I’m having fun playing how the game is right now, which is taboo to everyone else apparently.” What comment in here made you believe that?

Stark.1350:

Zenith.7301:

Dante.1763:

Zenith.7301:

You have to rune that gear, and the runes come at 6-12g a piece.

Depends on the runes you want, just saying…

You know what the runes that are expected are.

This is complete and utter bull. The runes as expected by who? Why do you let anyone dictate how you play?

HEY ANET. I WANT TO BE HANDED EVERYTHING AND TO BE GEARED OUT IN TWO WEEKS. ME-ME-ME, NOW-NOW-NOW. I can’t bear to work for anything and have long term goals.

That’s how most of you sound in this thread. What a joke.

I want to get all the cosmetic stuff more in a liadri or MF (remember the back-pack and the mini) way instead of the current brainless grind gold way or buy your way out of it. How is that for me me me me, now now now?

I think I did say it before to you (or it was somebody else). The ME ME ME, NOW NOW NOW crowd should be pretty happy with the current system. Me is easy enough, just a boring grind and now is also possible by buying their way out of most of the grind.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Pity or compassion only find somewhat of a place in all this if the ‘victim’ had no other option but to accept it against its wishes/needs. However this game does not fall into that category.

I disagree; some players (maybe) the vocal majority saying its “grindy” are victims, because they are addicted to a game they enjoy and that makes them a victim of circumstance, its like having a child you love him till his last breath but he does something constantly that you hate.

Honestly, this is the same bullkitten as always.

Twisting definitions of words so that they somehow fit into what was said.

Fact is:

1. A grind is a grind
2. Another grind is still a grind
3. Having more than one grind to reach a goal doesn’t make anything less grindy

Maybe people have personal preferences on what kind of grind is the lesser evil, but saying because you have a choice of grinds the game is not grindy is like saying you have a choice of different chores so the chores are no longer a chore.

How does that make any sense.

Meanwhile I am pressing 1, 1 and 1 again to level a ranger in EotM.

Zenith.7301:

I don’t need to be lv80 either to do explorables. It’s fun to get carried isn’kitten

It’s actually even more fun to do explorables on your non-80 and carry a bunch of 80s with super expensive gear that end up not knowing half of their class or encounter mechanics .

I said it before, and I’ll say it again: In this game, stat difference doesn’t have nearly the impact that player skill and encounter knowledge has. I can (and have) carry 80s that have mindlessly farmed gold to buy the gear that somebody proclaimed is the best. Don’t get me wrong, the gear is really the best, but it doesn’t help them much if they don’t know how to play the best, and sadly, a large part of players in this game doesn’t, for a myriad of reasons.

Many of the players that feel they need to grind for ascended equipment to “bring the best I can to the fight” would be much better served if they started on a quest of in-depth encounter knowledge and practiced their personal skill first.

aerial.7021:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Pity or compassion only find somewhat of a place in all this if the ‘victim’ had no other option but to accept it against its wishes/needs. However this game does not fall into that category.

I disagree; some players (maybe) the vocal majority saying its “grindy” are victims, because they are addicted to a game they enjoy and that makes them a victim of circumstance, its like having a child you love him till his last breath but he does something constantly that you hate.

In that case the right way of action is to do your best to change it (aka provide player feedback), and once you feel like you’ve done everything in your power, either accept things as they are or re-think your decision and fight the addiction.
However inaction from the get-go leaves you without any real case/right to complain about the crap you’ve chosen -willingly or not – to be subjected to.
I wouldn’t compare it to a parent-child relation, however, unless the addiction would be an extremely serious condition.

I read what Colin said, but I haven’t read what any of you have said.

I have been out of the game a while, but I guess you can acquire all of the materials needed to craft ascended gear via world bosses, temples, dungeons, etc. So by Colin’s definition, no this isn’t a grind.

And he is correct, we are free to form our own opinions on what a grind is.

One of the issues I take with Colin’s statement is that, and correct me if I am wrong, you can only acquire ascended gear via grinding (or at least the drop rate of ascended gear is most likely abysmally low). What if I dont like crafting and do not have a crafter up to max level? Must I grind that up, and then go farm all of the different modes for materials? Crafting for ascended gear may not be an activity I like.

Why can’t these actual pieces be rewards for dungeon play or something?

Amplifiction.8413:

It’s not a grindy game. Actually, it’s the least grindy MMO I’ve ever played. There is more than one way to obtain materials. We have a trading post for instance, that offers a lot of items. Among them are materials required for ascended gear. There are even more ways to get gold to pay for those items.

Players always want the most efficient way to get their hands on stuff, and so they start grinding. That is their choice, not Anets. Perhaps players complaining about grinding need to abandon this maximum-efficiency way of thinking. There is plenty of opportunity in life to apply this kind of logic. If you don’t know what I’m talking about, you’re either very young or very lucky. It’s just a bad way of thinking when you’re relaxing and doing stuff for fun. That is still what gaming is about, right?

Well said. Thank you.

VodCom.6924:

Some people clearly need a recall :

• An MMO is considered “grindy” if one has to repeat a small set of simple and uninteresting tasks in order to reach the level cap and enjoy the “end-game content”
• Having objects or rewards that require grind in a game does not make it “grindy”
• In GW2 the end-game content can be summed up as : dry top + silverwastes ; megaboss ; living world ; dungeons and fractals. Of all these only fractals of level 10+ require ascended equipment. Thus one with exotic gear can access 100% of endgame content since you walk through the same fractals at level or 50 (only the difficulty changes).
• And GW2 gives you tools to bypass the leveling process for your alts (exp tomes + skill scrolls + gold to buy traits).

With that in mind, one cannot possibly claim that GW2 is a grindy MMO. The ones who do either :

• Want everything handeled to them immediately without breaking a sweat.
• bash the game for the sake of bashing Anet/the game.

Edit : I’d also like to remind you all that ascended tier items were added because a vocal minority (not pointing fingers here) asked for something to grind for once they’ve finished the game.

THIS. Just stick with this comment and erase the rest, please.