So where is the choice?
there is always choice… p2w choice
BiS weapon you can get is not GS, dagger or staff… it is your credit card
"No-grind philosophy"
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.
There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.
But it’s more so.. At least for the part I am most interested in.
Ascended weapons/armour are the best tier of gear, there’s no arguing that.
Let’s just ignore the rings for now and look at armour/weapons and sources of them shall we?
Sources of exotic gear:
-crafting
-drop (RNG)
-Karma
-Dungeons (tokens)
-WvW (Badges)
- Trading Post
- Achievements (map/zone completion etc.)
Sources of Ascended Gear:
-crafting
-drop (RNG)
- Achievements
The most reliable routes for ascended gear are crafting or achievements
I can’t take the “no grind” philosophy to heart when the only source of top tier gear is to craft it or grind it out as an achievement (or get a lucky drop)
I wouldn’t mind the craft route (which I’m doing), and that would be fine if not for these little “gems” in the building process:
- Globs of dark Matter:
Source: Salvaging exotics (RNG), account bound.
- Ectoplasm Refinement (mithrilium, silk weaving thread, elonian leather, deldrimor, spiritwood):
Source: Time Gated
- Augur’s Stone
Source: 20 skill points
for the Ectoplasm Refinement the time gating isn’t as offensive as the sheer amount of tier based materials needed to create them. if you don’t have enough Alts at a low enough level to farm the relevant tier, you’re farming for bags or buying them off the TP.
I seriously doubt anyone could deck out all of their chars in multiple sets of ascended gear/weapons by just playing the game and not having to spend serious coin obtained from farming or grinding out the mats to do it (or dropping real coin in the gemstore/TP).
if they really believed in their no grind philosophy, they would make some of the account bound stuff tradeable on the TP or available for Karma (which I would hope they do in the expansion). Or put in multiple methods to actually play the game and get this tier of gear. (WvW badges? sPvP reward tracks? Karma? Dungeon Tokens?)
I’d love to see a level 80 karma vendor selling ascended weapons/armour in the expansion area.. or even a reliable dark matter glob source from karma… till I see similar diversity in ascended as we do for exotic the whole “no grind” thing is just lip service for what is really a hugely time gated reality…
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).
So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.
Watch this.
I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.
It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.
Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.
In some cases, I wanted those stats more than I need ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.
In the end, it’s all just a matter of what you consider grind. I thought Lotro was far more grindy than Guild Wars 2. DDO is certainly more grindy than Guild Wars 2. And I certainly felt like I was grinding in AOC.
You run a raid in DDO 20 times and you are guaranteed a list of choices not to mention many of the raids you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a loot drop and many times people get something they already have and put it up for grabs to the party. So in 60 days you are just about guaranteed to get your item. Crafting items and upgrading epics can feel like a grind but in all of those you know if you keep at it you will get what you want eventually.
The only guarantee in GW2 is that with enough gold you can get what you want. The only thing to work towards is gold. Save up gold to make this item. Now what do you do? Move on to something else to get the next item? Nope. You start grinding more gold doing the exact same thing you were doing. I prefer my grinds to change not be the exact same thing for the life of the game.
When I started doing dungeons I liked the way you earned tokens. It was nice to have a goal and know that when you reached it you start working on something else. It goes very nicely with the wardrobe. It would be nice if there was more of this, where you can work towards something other than gold.
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).
So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.
Watch this.
I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.
It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.
Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.
In some cases, I wanted those stats more than I need ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.
In the end, it’s all just a matter of what you consider grind. I thought Lotro was far more grindy than Guild Wars 2. DDO is certainly more grindy than Guild Wars 2. And I certainly felt like I was grinding in AOC.
You run a raid in DDO 20 times and you are guaranteed a list of choices not to mention many of the raids you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a loot drop and many times people get something they already have and put it up for grabs to the party. So in 60 days you are just about guaranteed to get your item. Crafting items and upgrading epics can feel like a grind but in all of those you know if you keep at it you will get what you want eventually.
The only guarantee in GW2 is that with enough gold you can get what you want. The only thing to work towards is gold. Save up gold to make this item. Now what do you do? Move on to something else to get the next item? Nope. You start grinding more gold doing the exact same thing you were doing. I prefer my grinds to change not be the exact same thing for the life of the game.
When I started doing dungeons I liked the way you earned tokens. It was nice to have a goal and know that when you reached it you start working on something else. It goes very nicely with the wardrobe. It would be nice if there was more of this, where you can work towards something other than gold.
Still, tokens are also just a currency like gold. What imho is a nice side thing you earn along the way but the main goal / item should be or some rng drop or a guaranteed drop for completing something like a dungeon or a quest.
(edited by Devata.6589)
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.
There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.
I have a philosophy in life, and it goes a little something like this – if you’re willing to tolerate crap, you deserve all the crap you’re willing to tolerate.
One is only the smartest person in the room if they are alone.
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again.
So running dungeons over and over again don’t fall into that category? Currently dungeon running is the only effective way to make money. Let’s say you don’t PvP, or have multiple characters.
What then? Is this not considered a “boring activity”? In the games current state dungeons become stale and boring because you aren’t effective in them unless you run ONE set of gear: berserker.
http://strawpoll.me/3648686/r Queue for PvP from any map. Vote Here. Zojoel [ASAP Zerg]
— snipped because long — If you want to know what I’m talking about click the posters name above and read his post; it was worth the few minutes it took me to read it.
If I could +1K this post, I would, but I’ll have to settle for +1. I really do not experience grind in GW2 _except- when I decide to go for certain things. However, what I’m finding over time is that while the base game remains fun and combat is a joy, more stuff gets added that feels tedious (seemingly for the same reason that sub games do the same crap), and fewer things get added that don’t feel that way. This means the box I play in is less of the entire game than it used to be.
When they start replacing stuff that was non-grindy with stuff that is grindy (traits, I’m looking at you), the box I play in gets actually smaller, not just percentage-wise in comparison to the entire game.
And yeah, I know MMO’s are generally about wasting players’ time, but somehow I thought this game would do less of that than it is.
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.
There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.
I have a philosophy in life, and it goes a little something like this – if you’re willing to tolerate crap, you deserve all the crap you’re willing to tolerate.
I’m tolerating it just fine. My character is decked out in ascended gear, no problem. When I feel there’s too much grind, I’ll stop playing. Clearly I don’t feel that way now. I’ve been through the grind of WoW, EQ and EQ2 – which is why don’t play those games anymore.
Accept the fact that those that invest more time into a game are going to get more out of it.
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
I did play other games before GW2 and I recently also did play another MMO for a while again. Including MMO’s that are part of the so called grindy games, but the matter of fact is that for the part I like in mmo’s, my preferred game-play (And that is the important part here) GW2 is by far the most grindy of them all. So much that I don’t do that part of the game in GW2, what is sad as GW2 is known for this part (cosmetics).
So please don’t come here and tell people who complain about grind don’t know what they are talking about. They do.
Watch this.
I played other MMORPGs and I find them, almost universally, to be more grindy than Guild Wars 2. So the people who complain about grind don’t know what they’re talking about. It’s very easy to say that. It’s still just your opinion and other people have other opinions.
It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2. It’s not particularly bad.
Because in Guild Wars 2, to max my skills like Luxon and Sunspear and Lightbringer and all the Eye of the North skills, I had to farm a lot of points. It sure felt grindy to me.
In some cases, I wanted those stats more than I need ascended gear in Guild Wars 2.
In the end, it’s all just a matter of what you consider grind. I thought Lotro was far more grindy than Guild Wars 2. DDO is certainly more grindy than Guild Wars 2. And I certainly felt like I was grinding in AOC.
You run a raid in DDO 20 times and you are guaranteed a list of choices not to mention many of the raids you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a loot drop and many times people get something they already have and put it up for grabs to the party. So in 60 days you are just about guaranteed to get your item. Crafting items and upgrading epics can feel like a grind but in all of those you know if you keep at it you will get what you want eventually.
The only guarantee in GW2 is that with enough gold you can get what you want. The only thing to work towards is gold. Save up gold to make this item. Now what do you do? Move on to something else to get the next item? Nope. You start grinding more gold doing the exact same thing you were doing. I prefer my grinds to change not be the exact same thing for the life of the game.
When I started doing dungeons I liked the way you earned tokens. It was nice to have a goal and know that when you reached it you start working on something else. It goes very nicely with the wardrobe. It would be nice if there was more of this, where you can work towards something other than gold.
Still, tokens are also just a currency like gold. What imho is a nice side thing you earn along the way but the mail goal / item should be or some rng drop or a guaranteed drop for completing something like a dungeon or a quest.
I agree some what. Tokens are just another currency like gold but they are basically a guaranteed drop. You run it x times and you know that you will get the item. I do agree that it would be nice if there were more rewards like when finishing the personal story and getting your choice of a pact weapon. I think there should be more of both of those types of rewards. They can keep the RNG for normal loot drops from mobs and chests but it would be nice to have a whole lot less of the BLTC RNG.
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.
There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.
I have a philosophy in life, and it goes a little something like this – if you’re willing to tolerate crap, you deserve all the crap you’re willing to tolerate.
I’m tolerating it just fine. My character is decked out in ascended gear, no problem. When I feel there’s too much grind, I’ll stop playing. Clearly I don’t feel that way now. I’ve been through the grind of WoW, EQ and EQ2 – which is why don’t play those games anymore.
Accept the fact that those that invest more time into a game are going to get more out of it.
LOL, “grind” in WoW.
In 2 weeks of raiding Warlords I’m already on my full raid itemset. In a month I had my upgraded legendary ring.
You don’t know grind. Even the legendary weapons at worst took 3 months, and they were GUARANTEED, not some RNG crap randomly gifted to people so that you could work toward the weapon without needing to play the Auction House game.
GW2 is ALL grind. They say items are optional. Well duh, everything in a game is optional, and when most of the activities and skins released in the game are “optional” and made to be huge gold grinds to drive their gem store exchanges, is when people get tired of this game.
I don’t play this game to farm gold or play the auction house to get what I want. If I do fractal 50 everyday, I should get my kitten skins. Not every other century because of the horrendous RNG.
In all my hours of gampleya I have not seen a single precursor. My friend got 2 precursor drops. The second he sold to fund completing his Twilight while I had to work for 4 months to grind up gold to get mine.
This game is one big casino with every kitten “optional” content addition being implemented via RNG black lion boxes to drive up their gem sales.
In 2 years they didn’t release a single additional dungeon with extra armor and weaponsets. Every “new” skin was either the 183791263823th backpack piece or a 0.03872% drop chance helm.
2 kitten years of not a single dungeon with explorable paths, and they haven’t even fixed the ones already ingame! Arath is still full of exploits as are most of them.
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.
There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.
I have a philosophy in life, and it goes a little something like this – if you’re willing to tolerate crap, you deserve all the crap you’re willing to tolerate.
I’m tolerating it just fine. My character is decked out in ascended gear, no problem. When I feel there’s too much grind, I’ll stop playing. Clearly I don’t feel that way now. I’ve been through the grind of WoW, EQ and EQ2 – which is why don’t play those games anymore.
Accept the fact that those that invest more time into a game are going to get more out of it.
LOL, “grind” in WoW.
In 2 weeks of raiding Warlords I’m already on my full raid itemset. In a month I had my upgraded legendary ring.
You don’t know grind. Even the legendary weapons at worst took 3 months, and they were GUARANTEED, not some RNG crap randomly gifted to people so that you could work toward the weapon without needing to play the Auction House game.
GW2 is ALL grind. They say items are optional. Well duh, everything in a game is optional, and when most of the activities and skins released in the game are “optional” and made to be huge gold grinds to drive their gem store exchanges, is when people get tired of this game.
I don’t play this game to farm gold or play the auction house to get what I want. If I do fractal 50 everyday, I should get my kitten skins. Not every other century because of the horrendous RNG.
In all my hours of gampleya I have not seen a single precursor. My friend got 2 precursor drops. The second he sold to fund completing his Twilight while I had to work for 4 months to grind up gold to get mine.
This game is one big casino with every kitten “optional” content addition being implemented via RNG black lion boxes to drive up their gem sales.
In 2 years they didn’t release a single additional dungeon with extra armor and weaponsets. Every “new” skin was either the 183791263823th backpack piece or a 0.03872% drop chance helm.
2 kitten years of not a single dungeon with explorable paths, and they haven’t even fixed the ones already ingame! Arath is still full of exploits as are most of them.
Clearly you never played vanilla WoW. Or a couple of the expansions after that. I loved faction grinding.
Oh, and I raided Onyxia 40+ times. Guess how many times I saw the T2 warlock helmet drop? Everything in a game is not optional. If you couldn’t get gear to help on a raid, you were a liability at best. I wonder why the guild I was in always gave the best armor to the main tank first. Because they couldn’t do the raid without it.
Funny really. If I were maxed out in a game in two weeks, I would be bored out of my mind and not want to play it either.
And you even mention, that in 4 months of playing, you earned enough gold to get your precursor. The game’s been out for 2.5 years. Why such a rush to get an item you can easily view as a long term goal? Your post is utter trash.
And I raided vanilla Naxxramas. I would say gearing my vanilla high end raider was less work than getting ascended in GW2.. it was definitely more challenging, and it did take it’s share of hours, but it was far less soul destroyingly repetitive.
I still got tired of that, though, so why would I – older, wiser – tolerate even worse in a supposedly grind-free game? This.. this lawyering over the definition of grind is grotesque.. it might win points if Anet is trying to claim ‘no grind’ on a HoT box, cuz they could get away with it. But it won’t win any loyalty from me.
Zenith’s right. WoW may have require you to get a new tier of gear semi-frequently, but the actual task is not that bad at all, especially nowadays.
You want to compare GW2’s current grinds to anything? I’d say.. the frostsaber rep, vanilla wow, would be appropriate.
(edited by Lheimroo.2947)
I played TBC and WOTLK… upgraded my T4/crafted tanking gear into T5 in like 2,5 moths. My T6 took even less because I have became main tank for my guild and had loot priority for tanking gear. “Grinding” my full Zul Aman set (just for looks) took me about the same time. Remember… it was 2 dungeons for tier armor which is like 2 hours (sometimes more with B team) twice a week. It was nothing compared to GW2 in therms of time spend on “grinding” for at the time BiS gear.
My T7 was piece of cake…. it was so much faster on WOTLK already.
I left before Cataclism so I dont know how is it now but I bet it is less grindy than GW2 unless you are stubborn fool who is trying to play singleplayer in MMO.
You want to compare GW2’s current grinds to anything? I’d say.. the frostsaber rep, vanilla wow, would be appropriate.
You’re all missing a critical aspect of what defines grind; “NEED”. No part of GW2 requires the ‘grindy’ Ascended gear in the same way that you and your other WoW collegues describe what gear you DID need to do new content raids in WoW. Therefore, the WoW to GW2 gearing comparison is irrelevant if you are trying to say one is more grind than the other.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Getting gear in WoW is extremely easy, has been for at least 3 expansions now. Besides, the best gear in WoW isn’t needed unless you plan on playing the highest difficulty raids(heroic and now mythic I believe), which an extremely small amount of the playerbase participates. You can still experience the raids with less difficulty in just a couple days after hitting max level. The same argument used for high level fractals could be used here.
Sorry, Obtena. Chris Whiteside said in this very thread that Anet considers ascended top tier gear and expects people to get it. And besides that, I do not include ‘need’ in my definition of grind. If something is too much work, it’s a grind and I don’t do it. Period. Needed or not.
As Zenith said, everything in the end is ‘optional’ if you look at it broadly enough. So show me something to go for in this game that isn’t nearly as grindy? Show me the one challenging boss that.. if I defeat it, group or not, has even a 1/4 chance of dropping the actual finished item I want, without requiring months of work crafting?
I remember several raiding nights in vanilla wow I’d get two items for four hours of fairly enjoyable challenging work. That experience DOES NOT EXIST HERE.
(edited by Lheimroo.2947)
Well, you did say “absolutely”, so we’re both exceptions to the absolute.
Fair enough, pardon the extremity of my statement.
But the point is they don’t look or hope for exotics, they look for ascended, and it’s completely understandable given ANets borked system.
Not actually commenting on the no-grind part of this conversation… but as someone in TTS who has done Teq and Triwurm with them, in both zerg and reflect… I’ve never seen a gear check even called for, other than if you’re in condi or reflect, needing a certain type of weapon or trait setup (you know… so you can do the thing you’re in that team for). The character I bring is in full orange, since most of my ascended is on a different character.
So, whatever your actual point may be, don’t use fake information to try and validate it.
No, please, do continue.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.
There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.
I have a philosophy in life, and it goes a little something like this – if you’re willing to tolerate crap, you deserve all the crap you’re willing to tolerate.
I’m sorry, no, nobody deserves that.
I tolerate a lot of crap, from people, from “customers” (I use the term loosely) and from people who think they know me online. I tolerate the prep, the research, the legwork to get things done as close to right as I can the first time. I tolerate people showing up with stupid dice games at my table and wanting me to play proclaiming it’s really fun.
I do this for a myriad amount of reasons, but chief among them? I know there’s worse things to have inflicted on me, and have been through at least four of them in the last three years.
Second? Because it’s often fun enough to have something tangential to the exercise I’m tolerating going on that I don’t have to think about it. Like having good music or a movie playing while doing the dice games, or having one real fun time in guild chat while attempting again to vanquish the Garden of Seborhin (and failing).
It is, unfortunately, almost insulting to suggest because I put up with it, that I somehow deserve it heaped upon me.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
You do not have to grind, if you do not “need” to get Legendary or ascended Gear in a few months.
They might be the best gear for years from now.
You can get most of the necessary ingredients by just playing the new content now and then.
(edited by TamTiTam.9574)
Sorry, Obtena. Chris Whiteside said in this very thread that Anet considers ascended top tier gear and expects people to get it. And besides that, I do not include ‘need’ in my definition of grind. If something is too much work, it’s a grind and I don’t do it. Period. Needed or not.
That’s a personal perception issue then. It’s irrelevant if someone expects players to get Ascended, it’s not necessary to play the game. Perhaps Anet has plans for content that requires Ascended. If that’s the case, we will have to wait a while before QQIng about grinding.
If your definition of grind doesn’t include need, then it’s not relevant to the discussion because it’s not you that is developing this game around your own definition of grind, it’s Anet.
I remember several raiding nights in vanilla wow I’d get two items for four hours of fairly enjoyable challenging work. That experience DOES NOT EXIST HERE.
That’s true, it doesn’t have that experience and that’s a good thing because if people want the WoW experience, they should just play WoW. GW2 provides it’s own experience. That’s why people play GW2.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
You do not have to grind, if you do not “need” to get Legendary or ascended Gear in a few months.
They might be the best gear for years from now.
You can get most of the necessary ingredients by just playing the new content now and then.
You do not need to grind WoW raids. You can wait and just do 5 mans and in 3 months they become legacy raids that anyone can complete easymode.
See what I did there?
It all starts with your definition of grind. The grind in this game is comparable, to me, to the grind in Guild Wars 2.
Indeed. And this topic has proved that your definition of grind (and that you claimed was ArenaNet’s definition) was wrong; it’s not ArenaNet’s definition of grind. From which we see that your interpretation of the Manifesto was wrong as well (see my signature for details). Thus, if that’s how the discussion starts, and in that you were wrong, well…
What was said in the manifesto was said in the manifesto. It’s a paragraph. You can ask anyone in the world to ask what they meant by something they said 4 years ago, and it has about as much chance as being wrong as right.
Do you even think Colin wrote the manifesto?
The paragraph is quite clear. All you have to do is look at the words in it.
Colin is answering questions from four years ago based on stuff that’s said since. But the manifesto is something that anyone can read and see, and without having a previous definition of grind, depending on the document itself for grind, it’s self-explanatory.
If you don’t agree, it doesn’t change anything. There’s not a single word in that paragraph about gear. Not one.
Nor is there any word (in that document) that states they do not consider gear or cosmetics grind as a grind or that it would not fit in there no grind philosophy.
Also this thread was created based on the no grind being talked about again during the announcement of HoT (where it was mentioned more in the context of doing something only once on your account instead of once per character, not leveling as there is no increase in level cap with HoT).
But seriously, are you now saying Colin is wrong?
However, again it’s not really relevant. It’s great Colin did clear up what they meant with their ‘no grind philosophy’ but that does not mean peoples complains about grind (that might not be the type of grind that Anet tries to prevent because of their ‘no grind philosophy’) is not valid. It still is. They have something in the game they dislike so they rightfully so talk about it on the forum hoping Anet will do something about it.
Sorry about I’m a writer and an editor. Colin is responding to an ever-changing industry, to specific complaints. I’m looking at the original manifesto. The words in it, period. Nothing else.
Colin has multiple responsibilities, including PR. The words of the manifesto, however, don’t change from year to year. They’re not like memories. They’re recorded. We KNOW what they say.
You ask anyone to describe anything from four years ago, and you’ll get discrepancies from reality. If you want to argue about what was meant in the manifesto, use the wording of the manifesto to back up what you meant. Do you know why you don’t? Because you can’t. The wording isn’t there to support what you’re saying. The wording is there to support what I’m saying. It really is that simple.
There is a paragraph in the manifesto where they talk about grind and in that paragraph they do NOT talk about gear, or gold. They talk about combat. They talk about people repeating stuff over and over again and want to make combat fun again. So they gave us multiple ways to level.
But in addition to that, in early panels where they spoke about it, BACK THEN, they reiterated this. They didn’t say anything about gear on those panels in reference to the manifesto.
I won’t bother arguing with you, you’ve made up your mind. But it doesn’t make you right.
You do not have to grind, if you do not “need” to get Legendary or ascended Gear in a few months.
They might be the best gear for years from now.
You can get most of the necessary ingredients by just playing the new content now and then.You do not need to grind WoW raids. You can wait and just do 5 mans and in 3 months they become legacy raids that anyone can complete easymode.
See what I did there?
The difference in WoW is, that there is always a new Tier.
You are not able to get the “best Gear” by just playing now and then.
Slowly saving Tokens for Tier 17 might not feel as attractive when you know, they will be weak and “legacy” in a few month.
GW2 sometimes feels more grindy for me then WoW, because I do not mind repeating challenging Dungeons as much as… well, most GW2-PvE content.
But it definitely does not force you to grind.
(edited by TamTiTam.9574)
Full outfit of exotic only costs 20g too. And only way to get challenge play with only white gear. Only difficulty in the game is from Lag.
You want to compare GW2’s current grinds to anything? I’d say.. the frostsaber rep, vanilla wow, would be appropriate.
You’re all missing a critical aspect of what defines grind; “NEED”. No part of GW2 requires the ‘grindy’ Ascended gear in the same way that you and your other WoW collegues describe what gear you DID need to do new content raids in WoW. Therefore, the WoW to GW2 gearing comparison is irrelevant if you are trying to say one is more grind than the other.
No it’s not because there was also no ‘need’ in WoW to grind. It’s exactly as you say “you DID need TO do new content raids in WoW” and that is a choice isn’kitten Just like fractals lvl 50 is a choice in GW2. IF you want to do the hardest raid THEN you ‘needed’ to grind (and how bad people did experience that grind is personal), else you did not ‘need’ to grind.
I was never interested in those hardest raids in WoW (not that I am against raids btw but they simply did not have my first priority). I have always been more interested in cosmetics (one of the reasons GW2 seemed interesting for me) and so I never experienced the heavy grind you talk about. There was some farming going on for my cosmetics (and fun items / toys / mini’s) hunt but never a very heavy grind. So I could just play that game completely the way I wanted without any grind what means the statement that you ‘need’ to grind there is false. You only ‘need’ it IF you want something.
Now in GW2 I would still prefer the cosmetic stuff but IF I want to get that here I ‘need’ to grind like hell (And since I do not do that, that part of the game is absent for me in GW2). So the ‘need’ is similar, it are both ‘need if’s’ just maybe for another part of the game and whether that effects you depends on what part you prefer.
Problem is GW2 did focus on cosmetics so did draw many people interested in that so you would expect the percentage of people preferring that is higher in a game like GW2. So maybe that group also has the highest percentage of players leaving GW2? And like I did say before in this thread, many of those people who left might come back for HoT but if they fall into the same traps (like the grind) again and so will leave within 6 months after the expansion Anet will have lost them forever. They will not be coming back for the second expansion. So HoT is the last opportunity to do something to not forever lose a lot of players.
BTW ‘need’ is not something I see as a requirement for something to be grind. But it’s something many people bring up and what Colin mentioned as part of there ‘no grind philosophy’ so that’s why I to talk about it. However, grind is grind also if there is no ‘need’ (as there is basically never).
(edited by Devata.6589)
BTW ‘need’ is not something I see as a requirement for something to be grind. But it’s something many people bring up and what Colin mentioned as part of there ‘no grind philosophy’ so that’s why I to talk about it.
It’s not relevant what you think is a requirement for grind because you don’t develop the game around your idea. On the other hand, Colin does mention it because that IS what is relevant. Anet develops the game around their own concept of no-grinding. Twisting the definition to suit your own argument, then claiming Anet fail at their own no-grind approach because it doesn’t suit your own definition is just nonsense.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
True. There was a lot of cosmetic stuff you had to grind for.
Especially in the LS.
You never get to choose between many different activities you could do to attain it.
Just one Map, a few Taks to repeat and often a limited timeframe. Thats Grind.
More cosmetics outside of the Cash-Shop, that do not require repeating the same tasks in the same Area again and again and again… – would make the Anti-Grind philosophy more believable.
You have a wide variety of possiblities to get ascended ingridients. They could try to find a similar concept for cosmetics. I really would like to exchange LS-Tokens (even if the exchange rate is bad), so I do not have to grind a specific Map for cosmetics.
(edited by TamTiTam.9574)
Sorry, Obtena. Chris Whiteside said in this very thread that Anet considers ascended top tier gear and expects people to get it. And besides that, I do not include ‘need’ in my definition of grind. If something is too much work, it’s a grind and I don’t do it. Period. Needed or not.
That’s a personal perception issue then. It’s irrelevant if someone expects players to get Ascended, it’s not necessary to play the game. Perhaps Anet has plans for content that requires Ascended. If that’s the case, we will have to wait a while before QQIng about grinding.
If your definition of grind doesn’t include need, then it’s not relevant to the discussion because it’s not you that is developing this game around your own definition of grind, it’s Anet.
I remember several raiding nights in vanilla wow I’d get two items for four hours of fairly enjoyable challenging work. That experience DOES NOT EXIST HERE.
That’s true, it doesn’t have that experience and that’s a good thing because if people want the WoW experience, they should just play WoW. GW2 provides it’s own experience. That’s why people play GW2.
“If your definition of grind doesn’t include need, then it’s not relevant to the discussion because it’s not you that is developing this game around your own definition of grind, it’s Anet.”
That is of course complete nonsense. If he experience grind and dislikes part of the game because of it his complain is completely relevant in this topic. What is irrelevant is that it does not fit in Anet ‘no grind philosophy’. That would only be relevant if Lheimroo would be pointing towards that as reason why it should not be in GW2. But he is not doing that. He is simply saying there is grind and he does not like it. (And maybe suggesting that is the reason it should not be here.. because people dislike it)
“That’s true, it doesn’t have that experience and that’s a good thing because if people want the WoW experience, they should just play WoW. GW2 provides it’s own experience. That’s why people play GW2.”
People play GW2 because of the boring grind in stead of fun rewards rewarded for content (and having the grind as option)? Seems highly unlikely. There might be many reasons why people play GW2 but I think the group that is playing GW2 for the grind is very slim I think. And there is nothing wrong with a game having a look at other games to try and take the best of those games into your game. It would only make the game better.
And to come back on your “That’s why people play GW2.”. How about.. That’s why people leave GW2?
Oow wait you are fine with that, you even tell them to leave. Thats completely no problem for the game. The fact that income and so likely player-base has been dropping since launch is perfectly fine of course.
Oow wait you are fine with that, you even tell them to leave. Thats completely no problem for the game. The fact that income and so likely player-base has been dropping since launch is perfectly fine of course.
Yes, In fact, I encourage people to leave if they don’t like playing it. I’m smart enough to know that not every game can be everything for everyone and I’m smart enough to know that if people think this game is a grind, they don’t understand what this game is about and who it caters to. GW2 shouldn’t try to be a Wow-clone. It should stick to it’s current business model. It works, otherwise they would have packed it in long ago.
Your attempt to link declining game population and income with grind is cute, but not based on any actual evidence; at least no information you have access to.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
That’s a personal perception issue then. It’s irrelevant if someone expects players to get Ascended,
Except the ones expecting players to get Ascended is ANet themselves, as per Colin’s statements, so it’s perfectly relevant.
That’s a personal perception issue then. It’s irrelevant if someone expects players to get Ascended,
Except the ones expecting players to get Ascended is ANet themselves, as per Colin’s statements, so it’s perfectly relevant.
They can expect it, it doesn’t mean players need it to access content or be successful in the game. Those things aren’t related. Perhaps Anet has some plans we don’t know about where their expectations for players to need Ascended are actually IN the game, but for now, it’s not.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
You know, it was a grind to get all ascended gear on three characters (which I’ve done). It was absolutely a grind. It’s probably much easier to get outfitted in other MMOs with the current max gear.
Of course I’m done grinding now, while the people in those other games will be grinding again in a couple of months. And a couple of months after that. And a couple of months after that. When the expansion comes out, months from now, I’ll still have max gear.
Also the grind is a lot less if you’re not in a rush for stuff. It’s only really grind if you want to have it now. Otherwise, most of the stuff you need comes to you as you play.
to quote Colin
“- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)”
+5 of a stat doesn’t sound like alot, but +70 extra stats do really add up. Again it is a statistical advantage.And he admitted their fault.
Some people can’t seem to digest it still…The fault he admitted was stating lvl80s should have the best gear in the game when they get to 80. He explicitly in this thread acknowledges ascended gear as BiS but denies the acquisition of ascended is a grind.
Which is lightly, subtly saying that perhaps it takes a bit of time getting ascended… and that you won’t have it at 80 for various reasons.
This is probably the best you will get out of them.
Nor is there any word (in that document) that states they do not consider gear or cosmetics grind as a grind or that it would not fit in there no grind philosophy.
Also this thread was created based on the no grind being talked about again during the announcement of HoT (where it was mentioned more in the context of doing something only once on your account instead of once per character, not leveling as there is no increase in level cap with HoT).
But seriously, are you now saying Colin is wrong?
However, again it’s not really relevant. It’s great Colin did clear up what they meant with their ‘no grind philosophy’ but that does not mean peoples complains about grind (that might not be the type of grind that Anet tries to prevent because of their ‘no grind philosophy’) is not valid. It still is. They have something in the game they dislike so they rightfully so talk about it on the forum hoping Anet will do something about it.
Sorry about I’m a writer and an editor. Colin is responding to an ever-changing industry, to specific complaints. I’m looking at the original manifesto. The words in it, period. Nothing else.
Colin has multiple responsibilities, including PR. The words of the manifesto, however, don’t change from year to year. They’re not like memories. They’re recorded. We KNOW what they say.
You ask anyone to describe anything from four years ago, and you’ll get discrepancies from reality. If you want to argue about what was meant in the manifesto, use the wording of the manifesto to back up what you meant. Do you know why you don’t? Because you can’t. The wording isn’t there to support what you’re saying. The wording is there to support what I’m saying. It really is that simple.
There is a paragraph in the manifesto where they talk about grind and in that paragraph they do NOT talk about gear, or gold. They talk about combat. They talk about people repeating stuff over and over again and want to make combat fun again. So they gave us multiple ways to level.
But in addition to that, in early panels where they spoke about it, BACK THEN, they reiterated this. They didn’t say anything about gear on those panels in reference to the manifesto.
I won’t bother arguing with you, you’ve made up your mind. But it doesn’t make you right.
“If you want to argue about what was meant in the manifesto, use the wording of the manifesto to back up what you meant. Do you know why you don’t?”
Because it is irrelevant?
“Because you can’t.”
Pff well if you say so.. No serious here you go.
“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment. " FUN!!! as in FUN!!! rewards. Not great stats no FUN rewards. I want FUN items like toys and skins and mini’s. Because that is FUN! And this sentence says I can get them without grind.
Now it’s still irrelevant especially after Colin’s post here. But heey, you got what you asked for.
And about context. It’s in the combat chapter what seems correct as combat is what usually rewards you stuff in GW2, and it’s in a separate paragraph that does not say a thing about ‘need’, leveling, gear or whatsoever. All it says is what I quoted.. the whole paragraph!
I will also leave it with this as this discussion is just as irrelevant for this thread as your definition of grind is, or the manifesto is or what types of grind fall or do not fall within Anet’s ‘No grind philosophy’. All 100% irrelevant for people experiencing grind and talking about it in this thread hoping Anet will do something about it.
They can expect it, it doesn’t mean players need it to access content or be successful in the game. Those are two different things.
But according to you, all that matters is ANet’s intention as far as things like grind and what is needed or not needed.
And their intention is that everyone has Ascended, because it’s BiS. The fact that some or most players don’t “need” it is wholly irrelevant. Anet’s intent is that all players have BiS gear, and they consider Ascended BiS.
After a short break from playing gw2 and coming back to it from other MMOs. You guys seriously don’t know what it means for an MMO to be grindy. Guildwars2 has it pretty good. If you’re upset, go try out other mmos and see for yourself.
Hey, well, there’s cow crap in the water over in India, so we shouldn’t complain about turds in ours? Bugger off.
There’s cow crap in every water, everywhere in the MMO world. There is grind in any game you can mention. Appreciate the fact this one is less so.
I have a philosophy in life, and it goes a little something like this – if you’re willing to tolerate crap, you deserve all the crap you’re willing to tolerate.
I’m sorry, no, nobody deserves that.
I tolerate a lot of crap, from people, from “customers” (I use the term loosely) and from people who think they know me online. I tolerate the prep, the research, the legwork to get things done as close to right as I can the first time. I tolerate people showing up with stupid dice games at my table and wanting me to play proclaiming it’s really fun.
I do this for a myriad amount of reasons, but chief among them? I know there’s worse things to have inflicted on me, and have been through at least four of them in the last three years.
Second? Because it’s often fun enough to have something tangential to the exercise I’m tolerating going on that I don’t have to think about it. Like having good music or a movie playing while doing the dice games, or having one real fun time in guild chat while attempting again to vanquish the Garden of Seborhin (and failing).
It is, unfortunately, almost insulting to suggest because I put up with it, that I somehow deserve it heaped upon me.
Why do you find it insulting, or almost so as the exacting case may be? If one does not like something, change it, change one’s approach to it to be something more likeable or don’t do it.
Change the things you cannot accept, but do not lightly accept the things you cannot change – try, or be prepared to settle for something compromised.
I too deal with a lot of clients (and occasionally that term is strictly applied because calling them kitten-faced kittens isn’t professional), and I won’t tolerate much guff from them. I’ve been in positions where I had to choose between having a job and putting up with enormous amounts of crap – I worked ceaselessly to no longer be in such positions.
Here, in a game like this where everything is literally fabricated and there is no such thing as anything being unchangeable? Here, in a game wherein which literally everything, right down to even playing it, is utterly optional?
Tolerating crappy excuses does little but continue the trend of gave developers regarding we players as dumb animals fit only to be milked, bilked and discarded at their leisure.
Tolerating crappy justifications for design decisions sight-unseen with no explanations tendered or even attempted gets us things like the currently live trait locking scheme and nigh-on ten months of basically being ignored no matter what’s been said or not, and ya know what?
We as a gaming population on the whole have bought and paid for that treatment. We’ve allowed it. We’ve tolerated it. We’ve enabled and tacitly permitted it.
These companies, they’re not our friends. They’re not our allies, no matter how effective the intended spin of their PR might be. The sentiments of specific devs here and there? Irrelevant.
Me, I’ll tolerate a certain amount of crap when it comes to friends, family and my career, but I harbor no delusions about who made the choice to do so. When I elect to tolerate a client’s terrible, arrogant attitude to save myself the hassle of getting someone upstairs involved, that’s my choice.
I’ve got no one to blame but myself when I’ve decided to accept something rather than change either it or my approach upon it. If I’m cool with owning that, so be it, and it is nobody’s fault but my own if I chose poorly.
It boils down, quite simply, to what you’re willing to accept. Clearly, you have a different threshold of tolerance for various things than I have – that doesn’t make you wrong and me right or vice versa; right and wrong don’t even enter the picture on such matters.
Are you happy with what you choose to tolerat? If so, you must be doing it right per your own wants and needs.
Me? I’m not happy accepting shoddy excuses and thinly veiled gloss-overs of non-professional conduct. I do not owe ArenaNet the same consideration I would extend to a family member or a friend, and given the utterly transient nature of our business relationship, I would consider myself terminally foolish if I did.
One is only the smartest person in the room if they are alone.
BTW ‘need’ is not something I see as a requirement for something to be grind. But it’s something many people bring up and what Colin mentioned as part of there ‘no grind philosophy’ so that’s why I to talk about it.
It’s not relevant what you think is a requirement for grind because you don’t develop the game around your idea. On the other hand, Colin does mention it because that IS what is relevant. Anet develops the game around their own concept of no-grinding. Twisting the definition to suit your own argument, then claiming Anet fail at their own no-grind approach because it doesn’t suit your own definition is just nonsense.
“It’s not relevant what you think is a requirement for grind because you don’t develop the game around your idea.”
It is relevant because I am a player (and not the only player) who finds an element of the game not so great and so inform the developer of this who might use that information to prevent to many players leaving the game because they also might experience the same problem. That is known as player feedback. It’s one of the main reasons games have forums.
Is this really so hard to grasp.
There are many, many, many, many threads on this forum of people talking about stuff that is not something Anet ever said anything about or in fact go’s exactly against what Anet is doing (possible on purpose) and all those threads and those comments are also 100% relevant as it’s all player feedback!
“Twisting the definition to suit your own argument, then claiming Anet fail at their own no-grind approach because it doesn’t suit your own definition is just nonsense. " Yeahhhh,, except.. that part is not happening is it?? Nobody (hyperbole!!) is saying (after Colin’s comment) Anet is failing there own no-grind approach. They are just saying that the game still is grindy for them and / or that the no-grind approach of Anet is not addressing the grind they experience or maybe even suggesting Anet’s grind philosophy is not very good because it does not addresses many types of grind. But nobody is saying Anet is failing at there own rules.. well nobody, not me at least and for sure not after Colin’s statement.
(edited by Devata.6589)
They can expect it, it doesn’t mean players need it to access content or be successful in the game. Those are two different things.
But according to you, all that matters is ANet’s intention as far as things like grind and what is needed or not needed.
And their intention is that everyone has Ascended, because it’s BiS.
I do like that irony but it’s a little out of context. The fact remains that Anet has not done anything ingame that requires me to have full Ascended gear and therefore, there is no reason for any player to subject themselves to grinding it out.
What do they actually mean when they say they intend for everyone to have Ascended gear? That doesn’t tell me they want everyone to rush out and grind it in the next week … in fact, that indicates to me they might rethink how people get it or how gear progresses in the game. I think we can agree it would be disastrous for Anet to release content gear locked to full Ascended without accounting for how it’s obtained. Based on how I’ve seen them react to other materials and gearing issues, I think there would be some adjustments.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
It is relevant because I am a player (and not the only player) who finds an element of the game not so great and so inform the developer of this who might use that information to prevent to many players leaving the game because they also might experience the same problem. That is known as player feedback. It’s one of the main reasons games have forums.
It’s interesting when a group of players lose perspective because of their self proclaimed importance as players. Feedback isn’t the problem. No one is saying you can give it. I think the take away here is that what you define as grind isn’t relevant to the concept of the game because you aren’t developing it or defining what the game is, even if your an almighty player.
In fact, players rarely have an influence in defining the concept of the game. Those things are set in stone long before it’s even released. Most of these arguments stem from the idea of players that think they do. Admittedly, I can think of an example of a game where the concept was completely rethought after release; Star Wars Galaxies. I’m not even sure that was due to player feedback. If it was, I’m not sure that’s a positive example for the players that want to influence concept.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Oow wait you are fine with that, you even tell them to leave. Thats completely no problem for the game. The fact that income and so likely player-base has been dropping since launch is perfectly fine of course.
Yes, In fact, I encourage people to leave if they don’t like playing it. I’m smart enough to know that not every game can be everything for everyone and I’m smart enough to know that if people think this game is a grind, they don’t understand what this game is about and who it caters to. GW2 shouldn’t try to be a Wow-clone. It should stick to it’s current business model. It works, otherwise they would have packed it in long ago.
Your attempt to link declining game population and income with grind is cute, but not based on any actual evidence; at least no information you have access to.
So you fail to see the game needs players to survive? And what is wrong with improving the game? Especially as the ways to reduce grind do not even have to change anything for players who prefer endless brainless grind. You just also get an option to directly work for the item without the grind. Is an addition option really.
They had the model of no expansions but only LS and then at some point decided that was not working and so did decided to go for an expansion after all. So seems like they them-self are not even completely sure / happy about the model.
Also I don’t try to link population to grind only. Things people dislike in general is linked to population, grind being one of them.
You want to compare GW2’s current grinds to anything? I’d say.. the frostsaber rep, vanilla wow, would be appropriate.
You’re all missing a critical aspect of what defines grind; “NEED”. No part of GW2 requires the ‘grindy’ Ascended gear in the same way that you and your other WoW collegues describe what gear you DID need to do new content raids in WoW. Therefore, the WoW to GW2 gearing comparison is irrelevant if you are trying to say one is more grind than the other.
You must grind for AR in order to be able to do high level fractals. Your argument is invalid right there.
In both games you don’t need BiS gear for anything else than top tier content for which it was made (tryhard WvWvW, high level fractals/high rank arenas and latest raids). But in WoW you are getting BiS gear made for raids by doing raids, arena sets for playing arenas… in GW2 you are getting BiS gear for farming gold, paying with real money or tedious grind if you are foolish enough to farm materials by yourself.
Reward system in GW2 is just wrong and pretending that it is not true is wrong too.
(edited by Brahmincorle.1264)
It is relevant because I am a player (and not the only player) who finds an element of the game not so great and so inform the developer of this who might use that information to prevent to many players leaving the game because they also might experience the same problem. That is known as player feedback. It’s one of the main reasons games have forums.
It’s interesting when a group of players lose perspective because of their self proclaimed importance as players. Feedback isn’t the problem. No one is saying you can give it. I think the take away here is that what you define as grind isn’t relevant to the concept of the game because you aren’t developing it or defining what the game is, even if your an almighty player.
In fact, players rarely have an influence in defining the concept of the game. Those things are set in stone long before it’s even released. Most of these arguments stem from the idea of players that think they do. Admittedly, I can think of an example of a game where the concept was completely rethought after release; Star Wars Galaxies. I’m not even sure that was due to player feedback. If it was, I’m not sure that’s a positive example for the players that want to influence concept.
So what are you doing here then?
And it sure as hell looked like you where saying I (and everybody here) could not give it.. you know because what we said was not what Anet has in it’s no grind philosophy?
Another thing I (and other players) did talk a lot about (complain) on this forums was the temporary content. We (the players) did manage to changes Anet’s opinion about that didn’t we? It has nothing to do with ‘’self proclaimed importance". We simply are the customer and that is the importance we have and we don’t have.. the importance of a customer.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I do like that irony but it’s a little out of context. The fact remains that Anet has not done anything ingame that requires me to have full Ascended gear
But by your own arguments, that’s irrelevant, because what matters is ANet’s design decisions and intent.
and therefore, there is no reason for any player to subject themselves to grinding it out.
So what happens when ANet does give a reason for people to subject themselves to it? (Because apparently Fractals isn’t a good enough reason because…reasons)
If Ascended exists without ever being “necessary”, then why does it even exist in the first place? If Ascended serves a purpose, then it exists and is as such necessary for said purpose, and as such, is needed.
I mean, I don’t understand your argument anymore. The game developers themselves say they want people to have BiS gear, and yet that’s not enough for you, despite you saying it’s the developers decisions about the game that ultimately matter in terms of need vs want.
If they intend for all players to have BiS gear, then clearly Ascended is considered a need by their perspective.
Either ANet is the be all end all, or they aren’t. Which is it?
What do they actually mean when they say they intend for everyone to have Ascended gear? That doesn’t tell me they want everyone to rush out and grind it in the next week …
It tells me that Ascended isn’t supposed to be a grind. But Ascended is very clearly a grind. You can’t look at the sheer amount of silk needed, especially for Light Ascended Armor, and tell me that isn’t a grind.
So you fail to see the game needs players to survive? And what is wrong with improving the game?
I don’t fail to see those things but I don’t agree that the game is so grindy that it’s a significant factor in attracting new players or fixing it would be an improvement.
Sorry about I’m a writer and an editor. Colin is responding to an ever-changing industry, to specific complaints. I’m looking at the original manifesto. The words in it, period. Nothing else.
It’s irrelevant what you are (or were). You have are trying to ignore ArenaNet’s clarification, both from right now and from 4 years ago. In both of those times, and in the Manifesto itself, it has been made clear that you are wrong, and that your interpretation is flawed.
Unfortunatelly, the grind is real, and ascended gear is its proof.
…
I guess you just want to argue, so I will make it simple for you.
As long as the game content doesn’t require players to have full Ascended gear, there isn’t an reason to choose to grind a full Ascended gear set when it’s possible to obtain it casually. If Anet wants to contradict what the game is with what they say it should be, your argument is with them. For me, that’s just indicative of game evolution. I could care less what they say because my reality is when I log in and play the game now and see what I can do without full Ascended setups. No amount of politicking changes that.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Me? I’m not happy accepting shoddy excuses and thinly veiled gloss-overs of non-professional conduct. I do not owe ArenaNet the same consideration I would extend to a family member or a friend, and given the utterly transient nature of our business relationship, I would consider myself terminally foolish if I did.
It boils down, quite simply, to what you’re willing to accept. Clearly, you have a different threshold of tolerance for various things than I have – that doesn’t make you wrong and me right or vice versa; right and wrong don’t even enter the picture on such matters.
Are you happy with what you choose to tolerat? If so, you must be doing it right per your own wants and needs.
And so, we’ve come full circle.
Why do you find it insulting, or almost so as the exacting case may be? If one does not like something, change it, change one’s approach to it to be something more likeable or don’t do it.
Change the things you cannot accept, but do not lightly accept the things you cannot change – try, or be prepared to settle for something compromised.
And what makes you think there is anything “lightly accepting” about how I approach things? Or anyone else in a position where they either have the choice to eat a bullet or continue on? You accept it because the alternative is unthinkable, not because you like it.
You go on. You get through it. Then when you have what you went into that torment for, you leave it behind.
I too deal with a lot of clients (and occasionally that term is strictly applied because calling them kitten-faced kittens isn’t professional), and I won’t tolerate much guff from them. I worked ceaselessly to no longer be in such positions.
So you understand why someone does have to put up with the unpleasant, and just focus on what waits on the other side of it. You put up with it, because you need to.
Here, in a game like this where everything is literally fabricated and there is no such thing as anything being unchangeable? Here, in a game wherein which literally everything, right down to even playing it, is utterly optional?
Yes.
Because it’s not like I play this game all the time. Sometimes I just don’t feel like putting up with it, and so I don’t. I don’t insist people play the game if they’re not happy with it.
Take a break. Do it in smaller bursts you can manage. Re-evaluate how much you really want what you’re grinding for. Or, better yet, how much it’s needed.
If you want it bad enough, or if you need it, you’ll make it happen. It’s no different than anywhere else, virtual or not.
Now, to point out back what I started with: Nobody deserves to be forcibly treated poorly. If they choose to? That’s their choice, and I would pity them for choosing it if there was a better option. But to say they deserve it because they didn’t insist on better or nothing? That’s the point I found insulting – a thinly veiled “they got what’s coming to them”. No, no, I reject the philosophy which says such and offers no pity, no compassion, but only contempt.
I’m really sorry. I know where you’re coming from and to a point, I could relate. But that point . . . no, no that’s a place I cannot plant my feet to stand. I think people deserve better.
It has little to do with whether the game is grindy or not (this is something which can be debated for about fifty pages, and my opinion has been noted several times thus far). It has to do with the general attitude of “they deserve it”.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
I could care less what they say because my reality is when I log in and play the game and see what I can do without full Ascended setups.
Then why did you even post in this thread to begin with? Seems to me the only one who wanted to argue for the sake of arguing was yourself, since you apparently don’t care about any of this in the first place.
Also it’s funny that you’re now saying you couldn’t care less what ANet says when just a moment ago you were arguing that it’s what ANet says that ultimately matters.