Guild Wars 2

“Mommy!”
“Yes, dear?”
There’s a nasty bug here mommy, come kill it!"
“Yes, dear”

I have a friend who do not like to learn. For him, if the game stays unchanged, is happy. All he want is to play together with his guild mates.

Other people want to have chalenges and variation. To see new content. Developers cannot create content (for free or for money) at the peace the player asimilate it.

But you have always the choice to play more games at same time.

Actually you must do that! If you call yourself a gamer!
Don’t waste your time playing over and over the same content which you do not like.
Why would you do that?

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant.

It’s not irrelevant at all. Without demonstrating a reward as a result of repeating content is a requirement to advance or access other parts of the game, it’s not a grind.

In the context of this argument it is irrelevant. Let me put this another way. Suppose you enjoy playing your game at ultra settings. Prior to purchasing a new computer you research the system requirements for playing the game at ultra settings and make your purchasing decision with those requirements in mind. Then upon installing the game you find out that those requirements were, in fact, understated. As it turns out, you are actually going to need a really beefy computer to play the game on ultra. By your logic you really have nothing to be upset about because you don’t need to play the game on ultra settings. However, that doesn’t change the fact that you were given a set of expectations, that the game failed to live up to those expectations, and that you’re disappointed in your purchasing decision because it was made under what amounted to false pretenses. The purchase wasn’t a complete loss because you’re still going to get some use out of that computer, and you can still play the game. However, there’s no getting away from that bitter aftertaste. Need doesn’t enter into it. The fact remains that expectations were set, but expectations weren’t met.

Grind is not repeating specific content, Grind is having content locked behind repeating specific content. Repeating specific content in this game is self imposed grind.

Carry on…

edit: notice the capitalization.

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant.

It’s not irrelevant at all. Without demonstrating a reward as a result of repeating content is a requirement to advance or access other parts of the game, it’s not a grind.

In the context of this argument it is irrelevant. Let me put this another way. Suppose you enjoy playing your game at ultra settings. Prior to purchasing a new computer you research the system requirements for playing the game at ultra settings and make your purchasing decision with those requirements in mind. Then upon installing the game you find out that those requirements were, in fact, understated. As it turns out, you are actually going to need a really beefy computer to play the game on ultra. By your logic you really have nothing to be upset about because you don’t need to play the game on ultra settings. However, that doesn’t change the fact that you were given a set of expectations, that the game failed to live up to those expectations, and that you’re disappointed in your purchasing decision because it was made under what amounted to false pretenses. The purchase wasn’t a complete loss because you’re still going to get some use out of that computer, and you can still play the game. However, there’s no getting away from that bitter aftertaste. Need doesn’t enter into it. The fact remains that expectations were set, but expectations weren’t met.

You’re missing the fact that Anet defines the expectation, not the customer. I think the only thing you can fault them with is being ambiguous. I frankly don’t even think they promised a ‘grind-free’ game. I would love to see the source of this statement because it seems to be taken as gospel truth. People just latch onto something they didn’t understand in the first place. What I can tell you is that Colin recently addressed this and I did read that … they seem to be closer to what they want to achieve than what people give credit for.

eithinan.9841:

Grind is not repeating specific content, Grind is having content locked behind repeating specific content. Repeating specific content in this game is self imposed grind.

Carry on…

edit: notice the capitalization.

While that would seem to be where ANet has hung their hat on grind, it is not the state of the word as it is evolving in real time. Buzz words in popular culture seldom retain consistent definitions across time. There is too much access to information and exposure to different ways to view things for a given definition to hold for the long term.

Okay…
I think this thread now deserves a gif or picture of someone flagellating a deceased equine. Anyone have one handy?

Azhure.1857:

Okay…
I think this thread now deserves a gif or picture of someone flagellating a deceased equine. Anyone have one handy?

A picture won’t stop them. They think they can see it still twitching.

@ Azhure & Just a flesh wound

Why? You guys want to demonstrate the state of the game if people get bored of the grind after the release of HoT and leave again within half a year? Personally I don’t think the game will then be completely dead, but it will get the status of a second rang MMO that could have done so much better but didn’t. A memory for many gamers. Instead of one of the serious alternatives / choices there are for MMORG gamers.

Anyway, as loyal players you should try to add something better to the suggestion then a picture that really, If you care for the game, even if you would disagree. You seem to do care for the thread because you are willing to spend time in it.

Test.8734:

When making grind, they don’t have to worry about making content fun. When making grind, they don’t really have to worry about making it polished. They can just give people stuff to grind for, and that’s it.

Yeah, except if they do, some people will just say “No thanks.” and either leave, or play far less, or only play on a certain (lower) level.

I don’t really have a problem with grinding for purely cosmetic rewards, as long as the grind is open to all.

I do have a problem with grinding for stat, or enhancement upgrades, as that is just pure gear grind (however much ANet may try to say it isn’t) which some people will inevitably view as compulsory (even if ANet say it isn’t).

The problem is, from what I have observed as a relatively new player, a portion of the playerbase have turned dungeons into a horrendous borefest of skip>stack>melee>skip>stack>melee and simply won’t allow anyone to try to play them differently, even if their prof and weaps suggest that they should.

As that is deemed to be less efficient (whether it actually is, or not).

That is what grinding for stuff does to some people and sadly, as the most grind-obsessed (and therefore, experienced), they are the ones who end up setting the rules.

It makes them look for the most efficient way, or more likely a way that one person has at one point decided is most efficient for them (whether it actually is for everyone, or not); rather than the ways which are the most enjoyable to play/replay.

If the first time you try to play a path you find it boring, due to the repetitive and totally predictable way other people force you to play it, there is something seriously wrong somewhere…

No content should be boring and predictable the first time you play it.

Seems to me that the real challenge for ANet is to create interesting content, where it is simply not possible for players to reduce it to this level of exclusivity and dictatorial, repetitive, tedium.

The content alone should dictate how it should be played (hopefully, in an interesting and varied way); not a few bullish, overly obsessed players.

Devata.6589:

@ Azhure & Just a flesh wound

Why? You guys want to demonstrate the state of the game if people get bored of the grind after the release of HoT and leave again within half a year? Personally I don’t think the game will then be completely dead, but it will get the status of a second rang MMO that could have done so much better but didn’t. A memory for many gamers. Instead of one of the serious alternatives / choices there are for MMORG gamers.

Anyway, as loyal players you should try to add something better to the suggestion then a picture that really, If you care for the game, even if you would disagree. You seem to do care for the thread because you are willing to spend time in it.

Grind or no grind, people always get bored eventually. Some sooner, some later. Instead of complaining about it, the better option is just to take a break. It’s healthy. Then when new content comes out, they return refreshed and ready to play… for however long until they get bored again. That’s just how life goes. Even people that don’t “grind” get bored and need a change of pace. That’s the nature of the beast.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

@ Azhure & Just a flesh wound

Why? You guys want to demonstrate the state of the game if people get bored of the grind after the release of HoT and leave again within half a year? Personally I don’t think the game will then be completely dead, but it will get the status of a second rang MMO that could have done so much better but didn’t. A memory for many gamers. Instead of one of the serious alternatives / choices there are for MMORG gamers.

Anyway, as loyal players you should try to add something better to the suggestion then a picture that really, If you care for the game, even if you would disagree. You seem to do care for the thread because you are willing to spend time in it.

Grind or no grind, people always get bored eventually. Some sooner, some later. Instead of complaining about it, the better option is just to take a break. It’s healthy. Then when new content comes out, they return refreshed and ready to play… for however long until they get bored again. That’s just how life goes. Even people that don’t “grind” get bored and need a change of pace. That’s the nature of the beast.

Sure, but grind can definitely contribute to that, and them returning is not as naturally as you seem to think (else no game would ever really lose people when it had a good release). Also I think the type of being bored you simply get over time even from content you like is different than when you get bored or burned out from grind 9or other negative reasons).. The difference is that with the one you just leave, while with the other you leave with bad taste in your mouth.

When people feel working towards their goals (no matter if it are cosmetics or stats) is boring they simply will consider the content not good. If you leave with a bad feeling then you are less likely to return.

I do think many will return for HoT but I do also think that if they get bored soon again with that as well (because of the same type of grind that made them go away the first time) most will not come back for the second expansion.

Devata.6589:

Sure, but grind can definitely contribute to that, and them returning is not as naturally as you seem to think (else no game would ever really lose people when it had a good release). Also I think the type of being bored you simply get over time even from content you like is different than when you get bored or burned out from grind 9or other negative reasons).. The difference is that with the one you just leave, while with the other you leave with bad taste in your mouth.

I won’t disagree that grind contributes; however, as we’ve seen repeatedly in this thread the definition of ‘grind’ varies (sometimes drastically) from person to person. So how much or how little it contributes will vary from person to person.

As for people returning, sometimes life happens. People outgrow games. They find others they like better. They change jobs and don’t have time to play. Etc, Etc. There are a million reasons why people don’t come back which really having nothing to really do with the game itself. Thus, the game loses people. By their very nature, games (as with all hobbies) fight a war of attrition in their fight to survive. Unfortunately it is a losing battle. Eventually it will come to an end. It might not be tomorrow. It might not be 10 years from now, but eventually it will.

When people feel working towards their goals (no matter if it are cosmetics or stats) is boring they simply will consider the content not good. If you leave with a bad feeling then you are less likely to return.

A lot of people get “bored” (read: burned out) simply because they treat the game like a job instead of like a game. They burn themselves out, and then they force themselves to continue for whatever reasons, which then yeah, that leaves a bad taste in their mouth when they finally decide they need a break. That’s not the game’s fault, and that’s more than just ‘being bored.’ A lot of what people have been talking about isn’t being bored. It’s being burnt out and not walking away, which yes, at that point it discourages people from returning. However, they are creating that negativity themselves because they just don’t seem to know how to stop and walk away.

For those that do just walk away when they get bored, that negativity doesn’t exist. When they come back it’s more of a ‘hey, haven’t done this in a while, let’s give it a try.’ Sometimes they find themselves refreshed and enjoy the play again, sometimes not.

I do think many will return for HoT but I do also think that if they get bored soon again with that as well (because of the same type of grind that made them go away the first time) most will not come back for the second expansion.

I agree, it is likely that many will return for HoT. Of those, many of them will consume the content as quickly as possible, and then whine they are bored and leave. Others will spend a little more time, decide they are bored, and leave as well. Others still will play it at a more leisurely pace and completely not understand wtf those first tow groups are talking about because they aren’t bored in the least. And of course, there will be rainbow of player types between just those 3 examples that I can’t even begin to address all of them.

And some will come, hate it immediately, and throw tantrums that they want it to be something else entirely

Not. All. Games. Are. For. All. People.

It is that simple.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

~

I won’t disagree that grind contributes; however, as we’ve seen repeatedly in this thread the definition of ‘grind’ varies (sometimes drastically) from person to person. So how much or how little it contributes will vary from person to person.

As for people returning, sometimes life happens. People outgrow games. They find others they like better. They change jobs and don’t have time to play. Etc, Etc. There are a million reasons why people don’t come back which really having nothing to really do with the game itself. Thus, the game loses people. By their very nature, games (as with all hobbies) fight a war of attrition in their fight to survive. Unfortunately it is a losing battle. Eventually it will come to an end. It might not be tomorrow. It might not be 10 years from now, but eventually it will.

When people feel working towards their goals (no matter if it are cosmetics or stats) is boring they simply will consider the content not good. If you leave with a bad feeling then you are less likely to return.

A lot of people get “bored” (read: burned out) simply because they treat the game like a job instead of like a game. They burn themselves out, and then they force themselves to continue for whatever reasons, which then yeah, that leaves a bad taste in their mouth when they finally decide they need a break. That’s not the game’s fault, and that’s more than just ‘being bored.’ A lot of what people have been talking about isn’t being bored. It’s being burnt out and not walking away, which yes, at that point it discourages people from returning. However, they are creating that negativity themselves because they just don’t seem to know how to stop and walk away.

For those that do just walk away when they get bored, that negativity doesn’t exist. When they come back it’s more of a ‘hey, haven’t done this in a while, let’s give it a try.’ Sometimes they find themselves refreshed and enjoy the play again, sometimes not.

I do think many will return for HoT but I do also think that if they get bored soon again with that as well (because of the same type of grind that made them go away the first time) most will not come back for the second expansion.

I agree, it is likely that many will return for HoT. Of those, many of them will consume the content as quickly as possible, and then whine they are bored and leave. Others will spend a little more time, decide they are bored, and leave as well. Others still will play it at a more leisurely pace and completely not understand wtf those first tow groups are talking about because they aren’t bored in the least. And of course, there will be rainbow of player types between just those 3 examples that I can’t even begin to address all of them.

And some will come, hate it immediately, and throw tantrums that they want it to be something else entirely

Not. All. Games. Are. For. All. People.

It is that simple.

You seem to forget a few things that might make it an even bigger issue for GW2. The game was promoted with a no-grind-philosophy and it’s all about cosmetics. So you would expect it to especially attract people who like cosmetics and who do not like grinding. However in reality there is a lot of grind (while indeed this is different per person) and especially for cosmetics there is a big grind.

“As for people returning, sometimes life happens. People outgrow games.” Yeah, obviously I was not talking about those people. The examples you give here are true for any game but not any game loses so many people that it becomes a second rank game and GW2 does not have to be one of those who does but if it does not seriously looks at the reasons for people to leave (those that Anet can do something about) then it might become one of those games.

“Eventually it will come to an end.” Just as the people you referred to also this is not what we talk about here. Nobody here suggest that heir idea’s would mean the game will life on forever. Please stay within the context of the discussion.

“A lot of people get “bored” (read: burned out) simply because they treat the game like a job instead of like a game.” And the way a game is designed can increase or decrease this. Eventually it also does not matter if they do it themselves or not, it’s not good for the game.

“Not. All. Games. Are. For. All. People.” And if your game it not it for to many people it’s a problem for the game.

Devata.6589:

You seem to forget a few things that might make it an even bigger issue for GW2. The game was promoted with a no-grind-philosophy and it’s all about cosmetics. So you would expect it to especially attract people who like cosmetics and who do not like grinding. However in reality there is a lot of grind (while indeed this is different per person) and especially for cosmetics there is a big grind.

No, I don’t forget that at all. They have clarified (repeatedly) what they meant by no grind, and cosmetics were not it. The game is cosmetically based, yes, in that your “end game” was not about “preparing to play,” It wasn’t a never ending gear slog. It’s about hunting different looks you want, different skinned accessories. Yes, some of those accessories (like minis) can only be achieved through purchasing them on the TP. They can’t be “earned” by “killing 10 rats” directly. You already know that I don’t necessarily agree with that design decision either, but that’s the route they chose to go. And honestly, I’d much prefer a mini or an armor skin in the gem store, which I can “grind gold” to earn instead of having something like zerker stats only available via the gem store.

“As for people returning, sometimes life happens. People outgrow games.” Yeah, obviously I was not talking about those people. The examples you give here are true for any game but not any game loses so many people that it becomes a second rank game and GW2 does not have to be one of those who does but if it does not seriously looks at the reasons for people to leave (those that Anet can do something about) then it might become one of those games.

You’re making it out like GW2 is in dire straights due to the amount of people it’s lost, and that’s just not true. New people rotate in and out all the time; however, you sort of missed the overall point I was trying to make with that section.

“A lot of people get “bored” (read: burned out) simply because they treat the game like a job instead of like a game.” And the way a game is designed can increase or decrease this. Eventually it also does not matter if they do it themselves or not, it’s not good for the game.

Yes, game design plays an important role in burn out. However, so does a person’s ability to control themself. This game is designed so you can put it down, and come back whenever you like; however, people just don’t do it. They push themselves. They treat it like it’s a subscription based game that they “must” play to “get their money’s worth” and that’s not how it’s intended to be. Anet doesn’t delete your account for being inactive. They don’t let someone else take your character name. They don’t make you re-subscribe to come back.

“Not. All. Games. Are. For. All. People.” And if your game it not it for to many people it’s a problem for the game.

Except that once again, you’re assuming doom and gloom, which is not the case. Yes, GW2 has lost players. Yes, it’s not making record profits anymore, however, it seems to be far from the impending doom you seem to think is looking over it because of its reward system.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

~

“They have clarified (repeatedly) what they meant by no grind, and cosmetics were not it.” They clarified that once 2,5 year after release. That does not change the fact that when they did promote the game at release, by talking about a no-grind-philosophy they created / attacked a player base that disliked grind. And that is even true now that they did clarify that on this forum as by far most people will not read that one thread where Colin clarified this.

“It’s about hunting different looks you want” Indeed and here you have my point. It’s this people it attracts, those who like to hunt (not grind) different looks and cosmetics. But the hunt does not exist for most of these items in the game, there is a currency-grind instead.

“You already know that I don’t necessarily agree with that design decision either, but that’s the route they chose to go.” And that is the ‘mistake’ (some think it’s a mistake, some don’t) we are talking about. It’s something they can change.

“honestly, I’d much prefer a mini or an armor skin in the gem store, which I can “grind gold” to earn instead of having something like zerker stats only available via the gem store.” Best would both not have it, personally I would rather have it the other way around as I do care for cosmetics but don’t care for stats. That just depends on your preferred game-play and this brings us back to the second paragraph. The game being about cosmetics and exactly that part being the grind.

“You’re making it out like GW2 is in dire straights due to the amount of people it’s lost” no am not, but the game has been losing income (and so likely players) quarter after quarter and if it keeps doing that the game will get the status I talked about. That is not the same as being in dire straights but it is not what it could have been.

“Yes, game design plays an important role in burn out. However, so does a person’s ability to control themself.”
Yeah, but the person’s ability to control themselves is not relevant for the thread as that is not something we can do about, but Anet can do something about the game design. Besides, even if they can that does not mean the game is fine. I would love those cosmetics but I refuse to do some boring brainless grind so I guess I do have that control, but that does not mean I do miss that hunt leaving me with far less to do that there could be.

“This game is designed so you can put it down, and come back whenever you like” In what way. Again this is true if you talk about stats but not when we talk about cosmetics, you only will get further behind.

“Except that once again, you’re assuming doom and gloom” Maybe we have another definition of doom or different expectation what this game could have been. But I don’t think it’s doomed as in that the servers would shut down. I do think it might get into a state far from what it could have been. I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

~

“They have clarified (repeatedly) what they meant by no grind, and cosmetics were not it.” They clarified that once 2,5 year after release. That does not change the fact that when they did promote the game at release, by talking about a no-grind-philosophy they created / attacked a player base that disliked grind. And that is even true now that they did clarify that on this forum as by far most people will not read that one thread where Colin clarified this.

“It’s about hunting different looks you want” Indeed and here you have my point. It’s this people it attracts, those who like to hunt (not grind) different looks and cosmetics. But the hunt does not exist for most of these items in the game, there is a currency-grind instead.

“You already know that I don’t necessarily agree with that design decision either, but that’s the route they chose to go.” And that is the ‘mistake’ (some think it’s a mistake, some don’t) we are talking about. It’s something they can change.

“honestly, I’d much prefer a mini or an armor skin in the gem store, which I can “grind gold” to earn instead of having something like zerker stats only available via the gem store.” Best would both not have it, personally I would rather have it the other way around as I do care for cosmetics but don’t care for stats. That just depends on your preferred game-play and this brings us back to the second paragraph. The game being about cosmetics and exactly that part being the grind.

“You’re making it out like GW2 is in dire straights due to the amount of people it’s lost” no am not, but the game has been losing income (and so likely players) quarter after quarter and if it keeps doing that the game will get the status I talked about. That is not the same as being in dire straights but it is not what it could have been.

“Yes, game design plays an important role in burn out. However, so does a person’s ability to control themself.”
Yeah, but the person’s ability to control themselves is not relevant for the thread as that is not something we can do about, but Anet can do something about the game design. Besides, even if they can that does not mean the game is fine. I would love those cosmetics but I refuse to do some boring brainless grind so I guess I do have that control, but that does not mean I do miss that hunt leaving me with far less to do that there could be.

“This game is designed so you can put it down, and come back whenever you like” In what way. Again this is true if you talk about stats but not when we talk about cosmetics, you only will get further behind.

“Except that once again, you’re assuming doom and gloom” Maybe we have another definition of doom or different expectation what this game could have been. But I don’t think it’s doomed as in that the servers would shut down. I do think it might get into a state far from what it could have been. I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

first of all could you add an extra linebreak inbetween your replies and the quotes of who you are respoinding to your posts are difficult to read

i take exception to the last part and i don’t play many mmo’s anymore other than GW2 can’t afford a subsription and i like the designs and gameplay of it better than the other f2p one i had been playing

and the thing that sets gw2 apart is a absolutely no advancing otherwise vertical gear grind for me i can do everything but high level fractals without ascended armor / weapons i have a good guild so i can get ascended amulets/accesorries and rings fairly easily ( rings take fractals but you can do a 1-9 fractal and get a pristine relic without any other ascended gear)

I played vanilla WoW and thinking back that was an awful gear grind 40 people raids meant 1 waiting for the specific item that i needed (hunter gear) to drop and then rolling against the 4+ other hunters in the raid if it dropped at all

now my guild back then was quite transient so the 40 people rotated a bunch so i probably would have had more luck if it wasn’t

but i NEVER want to have to go through something like that again

my point is i don’t know of any other mmo where you don’t have to do that or something similar to get end game gear other than GW2 you can do a bunch of different content to get ascended pieces or just logging in (laurels) so no it isn’t a grind to me as you can get the stuff you need doing other things (slower yes) but you still make progress

Devata.6589:

I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

Yes yes yes , we have heard the doomslayers 3 years now … thanks you for your contribution :P

A WIld Prophet appears !

Before making comments , you have to educate yourself
Like that in the previous wow exmpasnion 12 million bought the x-pack and 1 year later they had 6,7 million subs .
So ppl come and go as they please .
So ‘’wild population swings’’ exists , but you simply closes your ears

Simply … if you dont know some basic ’’thngs’’/informations …. you can ask us …

Now … truly smart ppl can play multiply video gameo games …. while we are stuck with the ‘’other kind’’ in the forums :P

Devata.6589:

The scope compared too what? If they would push out an expansion a year I would personally be fine with those expansions being a little smaller then your average expansion you see in a game like WoW that pushes out an expansion every 2 years. Or they could do one smaller expansion and then one bigger and then small again and so on.

The scope compared to HoT of course. Its not easy to compare one game with another. Enviroments in Gw2 take a ton more work to create then in WoW. Dynamic events take also considerable longer to create then regular quests. etc..

Devata.6589:

So yes I would personally be fine with a smaller scope if they pushed it out every year.

thing is people are already a bit uneasy that HoT might not be that big based on Devs statement regarding number of maps. Its still early, we dont know how big it is so its kind of hard to state whether or not 33% or 66% smaller expansions would be fine or not.

Devata.6589:

About when they started with HoT, based on what developers said (indirectly) it seems like they had some things going on for a longer time but the biggest part of the development for HoT started after the Chinese release was up and running.

For example, in one interview (I think with Angry Joe) Colin was asked why it took 3 years, on what Colin said that the Chinese release had a lot of their attention. In another interview (or maybe the same) they also said something like they first went for the LS but now decided to go for this (mixed) approach. Of course we also know they recently hired a raid guy. Bare in mind, I say this all out of memory, things might been said slightly different.

Its also possible that work on content started years ago but only recently they decided to release it as an expansion and thus the work he was talking about what that of consolidating stuff into an expansion. After there has to be sizeable team working on the expansion and that team has been missing from like day 1.

Devata.6589:

It’s hard to say when HoT will be released but lets say they they release it on the 3 year anniversary and we assume that the biggest part of the development indeed started after the Chinese release, that means the bulk of the work will have taken them 1 to 1.5 year. And that is then while also having been pushing out LS. Besides, because people have been waiting for 3 years they likely expect a very big scope now (so that is another possible trap).

I doubt that for the reasons already stated. I think he probably meant that work on the expansion paused while they focused those resources to get the Chinese version done rather then there was a skeleton crew working on this before the Chinese release.

IndigoSundown.5419:

eithinan.9841:

Grind is not repeating specific content, Grind is having content locked behind repeating specific content. Repeating specific content in this game is self imposed grind.

Carry on…

edit: notice the capitalization.

While that would seem to be where ANet has hung their hat on grind, it is not the state of the word as it is evolving in real time. Buzz words in popular culture seldom retain consistent definitions across time. There is too much access to information and exposure to different ways to view things for a given definition to hold for the long term.

As such the actual purest meaning of the word is the only one that should be considered as a promise.

If the word is evolving to mean repeating actions, then playing a game is grinding, period. If you do the same thing twice you’re grinding. That’s a load. That is also what most arguments claiming grind break down to. Anyone who actually puts any thought into it should realize that most of these arguments, and especially the original argument that brought this thread into being, are meaningless.

What was described is what a grind is. I’ll go farther as to saying a real a true grind requires the acquisition of the items the content it gated behind to be based on RNG. Do content for a chance to get an item. Repeat content until item is acquired. Move on to next content for chance at different item.

phys.7689:

playing things many times to get better isnt really grind, because its not based on how many times you do it, but how well you do it. I mean, you may find it boring, or frustrating, but thats not a grind.

That’s actually precisely what a grind is.

What makes something grindy is a repetition of an action that is essentially boring.

now if its a challenging content and that you have not conquered it makes you want to try again.. than sure, that could make repetition completely non-grindy but the moment you become frustrated and bored if you’re forced to repeat that content or else you have no other option than thats where grind begins.

Kal Spiro.9745:

IndigoSundown.5419:

eithinan.9841:

Grind is not repeating specific content, Grind is having content locked behind repeating specific content. Repeating specific content in this game is self imposed grind.

Carry on…

edit: notice the capitalization.

While that would seem to be where ANet has hung their hat on grind, it is not the state of the word as it is evolving in real time. Buzz words in popular culture seldom retain consistent definitions across time. There is too much access to information and exposure to different ways to view things for a given definition to hold for the long term.

As such the actual purest meaning of the word is the only one that should be considered as a promise.

If the word is evolving to mean repeating actions, then playing a game is grinding, period. If you do the same thing twice you’re grinding. That’s a load. That is also what most arguments claiming grind break down to. Anyone who actually puts any thought into it should realize that most of these arguments, and especially the original argument that brought this thread into being, are meaningless.

What was described is what a grind is. I’ll go farther as to saying a real a true grind requires the acquisition of the items the content it gated behind to be based on RNG. Do content for a chance to get an item. Repeat content until item is acquired. Move on to next content for chance at different item.

rng is irrelevant to grind. If you have a rng of 75% chance at a drop, i doubt that would be a grind, but if you have a guaranteed drop that you need to get 2000 times, most people will call that a grind.

grind has to do with the amount of repetitive activities you need to do in order to progress.
Its never going to have a pure non subjective meaning, because, different people are going to have different thresholds for repetition.

However, just because something is subjective doesnt mean you cant get some type of understanding.

I would say that the grind in gw2, is caused by them creating a grindy philosophy for endgame. (which is cosmetic)

unfortunately they extended the grind to best in slot with the addition of ascended, most specifically the armor and weapons.

Thing is there are 2 elements to grind. Game design and player behaviour.

I personally think its a mistake to except any game design alone will ever solve the grind issue. Case in point there were examples given of what Arenanet could do to make the game less grindy that people pointed out would actually make the game more grindy if implemented.

It has to come a bit from both.

Anet can only provide the tools essentially but its players who have to use them.

That gold like in real life is a token system meant to translate one value into another is one such tool. You want reward X? put Y work doing whatever you feel like and you can get X. That makes it possible to avoid repetition for a long long while. I am sure if people wanted they could spend at least 500+ hours doing stuff that earns them gold without repeating a single thing, even on a complete new alt if they choose. repeating everything once every 500 hours isnt really that grindy is it? but like its been pointed out many many times thats something that players have to choose at the expense of time which is where behaviour comes in.

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

playing things many times to get better isnt really grind, because its not based on how many times you do it, but how well you do it. I mean, you may find it boring, or frustrating, but thats not a grind.

That’s actually precisely what a grind is.

What makes something grindy is a repetition of an action that is essentially boring.

now if its a challenging content and that you have not conquered it makes you want to try again.. than sure, that could make repetition completely non-grindy but the moment you become frustrated and bored if you’re forced to repeat that content or else you have no other option than thats where grind begins.

frustration just means you are annoyed, that can happen at any time on one try or the 1000th
boredom is the same. If you define something as being bored, as grindy, then even doing something once is grindy, which is not what grind is about.

Also, i contend that repetition to achieve skill/knowledge isnt really grindy, because doing the same thing(that doesnt work) will not allow you to progress.

now this isnt to say you want people to quit from frustration, but just that frustration and grind are two different types of issues

Obtena.7952:

You’re missing the fact that Anet defines the expectation, not the customer. I think the only thing you can fault them with is being ambiguous.

You’re missing the fact that I was specifically referring to ascended gear, and just last month Colin explicitly called out ascended gear as an element of the game that the manifesto promised would be grind-free. He also stated that this intention still holds.

Obtena.7952:

I frankly don’t even think they promised a ‘grind-free’ game. I would love to see the source of this statement because it seems to be taken as gospel truth. People just latch onto something they didn’t understand in the first place. What I can tell you is that Colin recently addressed this and I did read that … they seem to be closer to what they want to achieve than what people give credit for.

Well , you’re in luck because I just happen to have the source right here:

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.

I don’t think there’s any ambiguity about that.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is there are 2 elements to grind. Game design and player behaviour.

I personally think its a mistake to except any game design alone will ever solve the grind issue. Case in point there were examples given of what Arenanet could do to make the game less grindy that people pointed out would actually make the game more grindy if implemented.

It has to come a bit from both.

Anet can only provide the tools essentially but its players who have to use them.

That gold like in real life is a token system meant to translate one value into another is one such tool. You want reward X? put Y work doing whatever you feel like and you can get X. That makes it possible to avoid repetition for a long long while. I am sure if people wanted they could spend at least 500+ hours doing stuff that earns them gold without repeating a single thing, even on a complete new alt if they choose. repeating everything once every 500 hours isnt really that grindy is it? but like its been pointed out many many times thats something that players have to choose at the expense of time which is where behaviour comes in.

game design includes player behavior. The simple answer, is stop developing rewards based around 500 hours of play. Why isnt chess grindy? because it isnt designed around 500 hours of play, that is most likely to succeed with repetive play. Why isnt basketball grindy? because its not designed that way.

You mentioned this before, when you say content should last a player 100 hours. Yes, you want to design content that is highly replayable, no, the best answer to that is not to make you have to repeat it for 200 times to get some reward, that just makes the journey less entertaining. It actually tends to make the repetions themselves, less entertaining.

For example, a playoff player may have hit 800 shots in order to have a winning season, many of those shots may have been exciting, some more than others, doesnt feel like a grind, but if you tell the same player to shoot 800 shots before he can win, you make it feel like a chore, and whether you have to shoot 1 shot a day, or 800 shots in one day, its still gonna feel like a grind.

point is, focus reward on the best, most entertaining gameplay possible, in small bursts, with short term goals. Long term goals should be a collection of SATISFYING short term goals.
In the basketball example, winning a game is a satisfying short term goal, shooting till you hit 30 shots a day and going home, is less satisfying. (for many people)

Like i said for guild halls, building a room, is a satisfying short term goal. Grinding 20 gold a day so that when you hit 4000 gold you can buy a compeleted guild hall, is less satisfying (Satisfaction per day is low)

phys.7689:

I would say that the grind in gw2, is caused by them creating a grindy philosophy for endgame. (which is cosmetic)

unfortunately they extended the grind to best in slot with the addition of ascended, most specifically the armor and weapons.

Which is fine because you don’t actually need either of those things. Anyone should be content to be in exotics and don’t need to go all the way to Ascended unless they’re willing and prepared to grind it.

The same with anything cosmetic, if you really want it be prepared for grind. But to progress through 80 levels, to complete the dungeons, to complete the personal story, even to complete the living world story, at no point during any of this do you need grind to complete it.

In my opinion, which isn’t really relevant to this, but I feel like putting it in, endgame needs to be grindy. If there is no end to the game and you can just get whatever it is you want the first time you do it, there is no point in repeating content. In order to ensure repeated content and continued game play for endgame there has to be grind.

Kal Spiro.9745:

phys.7689:

I would say that the grind in gw2, is caused by them creating a grindy philosophy for endgame. (which is cosmetic)

unfortunately they extended the grind to best in slot with the addition of ascended, most specifically the armor and weapons.

Which is fine because you don’t actually need either of those things. Anyone should be content to be in exotics and don’t need to go all the way to Ascended unless they’re willing and prepared to grind it.

The same with anything cosmetic, if you really want it be prepared for grind. But to progress through 80 levels, to complete the dungeons, to complete the personal story, even to complete the living world story, at no point during any of this do you need grind to complete it.

In my opinion, which isn’t really relevant to this, but I feel like putting it in, endgame needs to be grindy. If there is no end to the game and you can just get whatever it is you want the first time you do it, there is no point in repeating content. In order to ensure repeated content and continued game play for endgame there has to be grind.

you can make something satisfying,and highly repeatable, without making it grindy

art
music
sports
food

there are many things people repeat that doesnt feel grindy.

phys.7689:

Kal Spiro.9745:

phys.7689:

I would say that the grind in gw2, is caused by them creating a grindy philosophy for endgame. (which is cosmetic)

unfortunately they extended the grind to best in slot with the addition of ascended, most specifically the armor and weapons.

Which is fine because you don’t actually need either of those things. Anyone should be content to be in exotics and don’t need to go all the way to Ascended unless they’re willing and prepared to grind it.

The same with anything cosmetic, if you really want it be prepared for grind. But to progress through 80 levels, to complete the dungeons, to complete the personal story, even to complete the living world story, at no point during any of this do you need grind to complete it.

In my opinion, which isn’t really relevant to this, but I feel like putting it in, endgame needs to be grindy. If there is no end to the game and you can just get whatever it is you want the first time you do it, there is no point in repeating content. In order to ensure repeated content and continued game play for endgame there has to be grind.

you can make something satisfying,and highly repeatable, without making it grindy

art
music
sports
food

there are many things people repeat that doesnt feel grindy.

Cool, in what way are any of these things endgame in an MMO?

phys.7689:

game design includes player behavior. The simple answer, is stop developing rewards based around 500 hours of play. Why isnt chess grindy? because it isnt designed around 500 hours of play, that is most likely to succeed with repetive play. Why isnt basketball grindy? because its not designed that way.

But in chess you are also repeating the same thing over and over. Each game of chess uses the same rules as the last one, so why is repeating Vinewrath called “grindy” but playing chess isn’t? I think repetition itself isn’t the answer. Instead, the reason Chess doesn’t feel grindy but VW is, is because the outcome of a game of chess isn’t known before you even start. That’s what makes it different from VW, which is only a “few minute delay before we get the rewards”. If Vinewrath was exciting and hard enough to not have a 100% success rate and instead was something to look forward to when it started, it wouldn’t be grindy at all. Trying to beat Tequatl or Triple Trouble with the guild wars community didn’t feel grindy, even if we repeated it multiple times until we got them. It became a “grind” AFTER we found out the mechanics and made them both easy modes.

phys.7689:

In the basketball example, winning a game is a satisfying short term goal, shooting till you hit 30 shots a day and going home, is less satisfying. (for many people)

Actually, in basketball, that’s called practice, and it can involve a lot more than 30 makes in one session.

Kal Spiro.9745:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

As such the actual purest meaning of the word is the only one that should be considered as a promise.

If the word is evolving to mean repeating actions, then playing a game is grinding, period. If you do the same thing twice you’re grinding. That’s a load. That is also what most arguments claiming grind break down to. Anyone who actually puts any thought into it should realize that most of these arguments, and especially the original argument that brought this thread into being, are meaningless.

What was described is what a grind is. I’ll go farther as to saying a real a true grind requires the acquisition of the items the content it gated behind to be based on RNG. Do content for a chance to get an item. Repeat content until item is acquired. Move on to next content for chance at different item.

Fwiw, I never thought ANet broke a promise. I never expected there would not be rewards in this game that would involve large amounts of repetition. I played the original GW, and there was plenty of that there. I just didn’t think that BiS gear would be one of them. In retrospect, I should have seen the between-the-lines text when they chose to put virtually every character stat on gear, and to use trinity-style stats in a non-trinity game.

I don’t think the word is evolving to the point where performing the same action is equal to grind. After all, at the simplest level, we are all pressing keys or mouse buttons. Rather, the word is evolving to mean repeating the same content (be it SW, a dungeon, or world bosses) past the point of boredom (and still being far from one’s goal). This is a function of the societal tendency for instant gratification.

As to your last paragraph, that represents one iteration of the term’s evolution. The first usage I can remember in online games was having to kill hundreds of mobs to level up, so you could kill thousands more to level up again, rinse and repeat. The term “grinder game” was not originally about gear acquisition.

It’s fine that words evolve. It’s a pity when forum threads turn into arguments about what a word means, when it’s perfectly clear (sometimes) what the person means by grind. The OP means having to farm large amounts of gold rather than farm specific mobs/dungeons/etc. for rewards he desires. It’s not my personal idea of grind, but it’s what the thread is about.

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

In the basketball example, winning a game is a satisfying short term goal, shooting till you hit 30 shots a day and going home, is less satisfying. (for many people)

Actually, in basketball, that’s called practice, and it can involve a lot more than 30 makes in one session.

Kal Spiro.9745:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

As such the actual purest meaning of the word is the only one that should be considered as a promise.

If the word is evolving to mean repeating actions, then playing a game is grinding, period. If you do the same thing twice you’re grinding. That’s a load. That is also what most arguments claiming grind break down to. Anyone who actually puts any thought into it should realize that most of these arguments, and especially the original argument that brought this thread into being, are meaningless.

What was described is what a grind is. I’ll go farther as to saying a real a true grind requires the acquisition of the items the content it gated behind to be based on RNG. Do content for a chance to get an item. Repeat content until item is acquired. Move on to next content for chance at different item.

Fwiw, I never thought ANet broke a promise. I never expected there would not be rewards in this game that would involve large amounts of repetition. I played the original GW, and there was plenty of that there. I just didn’t think that BiS gear would be one of them. In retrospect, I should have seen the between-the-lines text when they chose to put virtually every character stat on gear, and to use trinity-style stats in a non-trinity game.

I don’t think the word is evolving to the point where performing the same action is equal to grind. After all, at the simplest level, we are all pressing keys or mouse buttons. Rather, the word is evolving to mean repeating the same content (be it SW, a dungeon, or world bosses) past the point of boredom (and still being far from one’s goal). This is a function of the societal tendency for instant gratification.

As to your last paragraph, that represents one iteration of the term’s evolution. The first usage I can remember in online games was having to kill hundreds of mobs to level up, so you could kill thousands more to level up again, rinse and repeat. The term “grinder game” was not originally about gear acquisition.

It’s fine that words evolve. It’s a pity when forum threads turn into arguments about what a word means, when it’s perfectly clear (sometimes) what the person means by grind. The OP means having to farm large amounts of gold rather than farm specific mobs/dungeons/etc. for rewards he desires. It’s not my personal idea of grind, but it’s what the thread is about.

practice isnt the playing the game. Its practicing individual skills.

Do you think basketball would be popular if the game was designed such that you go, make 20 shots and go home? after doing this for 200 days you win the playoffs?

Bernie.8674:

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.

I don’t think there’s any ambiguity about that.

About as much ambiguity as there is in the fact that you don’t need to grind to get ascended. You can choose to, if you want to get it exceptionally fast, but as long as we’re throwing around quotes and arguing about semantics, anyone who still thinks they’re going against their word might want to re-read it until they understand what he meant by “need to,” i.e. there is no other way, e.g. working on it slowly over a long period as you simply play whatever you want q.e.d.

Andred.1087:

Bernie.8674:

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.

I don’t think there’s any ambiguity about that.

About as much ambiguity as there is in the fact that you don’t need to grind to get ascended.

That’s true Ascended is mostly just time gated. There isn’t any significant grind to it, unless you force it to be to get the mats.

Andred.1087:

Bernie.8674:

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.

I don’t think there’s any ambiguity about that.

About as much ambiguity as there is in the fact that you don’t need to grind to get ascended. You can choose to, if you want to get it exceptionally fast, but as long as we’re throwing around quotes and arguing about semantics, anyone who still thinks they’re going against their word might want to re-read it until they understand what he meant by “need to,” i.e. there is no other way, e.g. working on it slowly over a long period as you simply play whatever you want q.e.d.

There is grind behind it. You still have to do content repeatedily to get the materials.
And ANet went out of their way to make armor even worse than the other ascended gear.
If you look at the Ascended cloth (which in of itself is used a lot – all armor categories use cloth, plus insignias use cloth) it uses twice as much silk as other materials use the equivalent T5 materials. Its 100 silk, compared to 50 in all others, compound to that that cloth is already hard to find (since its only available through salvaging), and you see the discrepancy of the prices of silk compared to the same tier leather (which is also only available from salvaging, although apparently leather items do seem to be more common, i guess?).

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

You’re missing the fact that Anet defines the expectation, not the customer. I think the only thing you can fault them with is being ambiguous.

You’re missing the fact that I was specifically referring to ascended gear, and just last month Colin explicitly called out ascended gear as an element of the game that the manifesto promised would be grind-free. He also stated that this intention still holds.

Obtena.7952:

I frankly don’t even think they promised a ‘grind-free’ game. I would love to see the source of this statement because it seems to be taken as gospel truth. People just latch onto something they didn’t understand in the first place. What I can tell you is that Colin recently addressed this and I did read that … they seem to be closer to what they want to achieve than what people give credit for.

Well , you’re in luck because I just happen to have the source right here:

ColinJohanson.2394:

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.

I don’t think there’s any ambiguity about that.

I totally ambiguous because nothing there define what Anet means by grind. Besides, that’s not a promise of a grind free game either.

Andred.1087:

About as much ambiguity as there is in the fact that you don’t need to grind to get ascended.

That may originally have been true, but the sheer quantity of silk that is now required (7200+, depending on your class) combined with the current cost of silk has made it a requirement in the current game. The alternative is to “naturally” acquire silk at the rate of about 10 a day (which is about what I average from doing my daily completionist, participating in weekly guild missions, opening the bandit chest in my instance, and engaging in a random activity — world bosses, fractals, dungeon run, etc.). So we’re looking at roughly two years to craft an ascended set without grinding. If you know of a way I can complete my ascended set sometime in the next year without grinding I’m glad to hear it. In the past anyone I’ve asked suggests that I run champ trains and silverwastes. In otherwords, grind.

Kal Spiro.9745:

That’s true Ascended is mostly just time gated. There isn’t any significant grind to it, unless you force it to be to get the mats.

The time gating is not an issue. The mats are the issue. Specifically, the mats required to craft damask. When it takes 30 days to gather the 300 silk scraps for a single bolt of damask, the one-a-day limit isn’t even a factor.

Obtena.7952:

I totally ambiguous because nothing there define what Anet means by grind. Besides, that’s not a promise of a grind free game either.

I’ll repeat it again. I was talking about ascended gear. Why are you generalizing my statement to “grind-free game?” Also, read the post I linked. The definition of grind is contained there.

Bernie.8674:

Andred.1087:

About as much ambiguity as there is in the fact that you don’t need to grind to get ascended.

That may originally have been true, but the sheer quantity of silk that is now required (7200+, depending on your class) combined with the current cost of silk has made it a requirement in the current game. The alternative is to “naturally” acquire silk at the rate of about 10 a day (which is about what I average from doing my daily completionist, participating in weekly guild missions, opening the bandit chest in my instance, and engaging in a random activity — world bosses, fractals, dungeon run, etc.). So we’re looking at roughly two years to craft an ascended set without grinding. If you know of a way I can complete my ascended set sometime in the next year without grinding I’m glad to hear it. In the past anyone I’ve asked suggests that I run champ trains and silverwastes. In otherwords, grind.

Are you really sure there is not a way , or there is not an PvE Heart Vendor that sell soulbound 64-73 lvl gear in the Open world , for simply with Karma ?

Are you really sure you cant buy 200 Soulbound Blue Cloth Armors with the Karma , from that vendor and go straight to the Mystic forge to combine then ?

Are you really sure that if you combine 4 Soulbound (blue items) wont give an Unsoulbound item that you salvage for Silk ?

Edit : brb going to sleep :P

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

I totally ambiguous because nothing there define what Anet means by grind. Besides, that’s not a promise of a grind free game either.

I’ll repeat it again. I was talking about ascended gear. Why are you generalizing my statement to “grind-free game?” Also, read the post I linked. The definition of grind is contained there.

Yes, I see that … and according to their definition IN THE POST YOU LINK, you don’t need to grind for Ascended gear because they define grind as having to repeated do the same boring content over and over again. IN GW2 you don’t need to do that to get ascended gear. If you are subjecting yourself to boring content, that’s YOUR fault. If everything in this game is boring to you, then you have bigger issues than grind. You shouldn’t even be playing the game if it bores that much. That’s the beautiful thing about Anet’s definition … it depends on the player because the key word here is BORING. Only a player can decide what bores them, not Anet.

You still don’t address my point that they never promised to deliver grind-free anything, even though according to there definition, they appear to be.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

~

~

“You’re making it out like GW2 is in dire straights due to the amount of people it’s lost” no am not, but the game has been losing income (and so likely players) quarter after quarter and if it keeps doing that the game will get the status I talked about. That is not the same as being in dire straights but it is not what it could have been.

“Yes, game design plays an important role in burn out. However, so does a person’s ability to control themself.”
Yeah, but the person’s ability to control themselves is not relevant for the thread as that is not something we can do about, but Anet can do something about the game design. Besides, even if they can that does not mean the game is fine. I would love those cosmetics but I refuse to do some boring brainless grind so I guess I do have that control, but that does not mean I do miss that hunt leaving me with far less to do that there could be.

“This game is designed so you can put it down, and come back whenever you like” In what way. Again this is true if you talk about stats but not when we talk about cosmetics, you only will get further behind.

“Except that once again, you’re assuming doom and gloom” Maybe we have another definition of doom or different expectation what this game could have been. But I don’t think it’s doomed as in that the servers would shut down. I do think it might get into a state far from what it could have been. I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

first of all could you add an extra linebreak inbetween your replies and the quotes of who you are respoinding to your posts are difficult to read

i take exception to the last part and i don’t play many mmo’s anymore other than GW2 can’t afford a subsription and i like the designs and gameplay of it better than the other f2p one i had been playing

and the thing that sets gw2 apart is a absolutely no advancing otherwise vertical gear grind for me i can do everything but high level fractals without ascended armor / weapons i have a good guild so i can get ascended amulets/accesorries and rings fairly easily ( rings take fractals but you can do a 1-9 fractal and get a pristine relic without any other ascended gear)

I played vanilla WoW and thinking back that was an awful gear grind 40 people raids meant 1 waiting for the specific item that i needed (hunter gear) to drop and then rolling against the 4+ other hunters in the raid if it dropped at all

now my guild back then was quite transient so the 40 people rotated a bunch so i probably would have had more luck if it wasn’t

but i NEVER want to have to go through something like that again

my point is i don’t know of any other mmo where you don’t have to do that or something similar to get end game gear other than GW2 you can do a bunch of different content to get ascended pieces or just logging in (laurels) so no it isn’t a grind to me as you can get the stuff you need doing other things (slower yes) but you still make progress

I am not completely sure what part you do not agree with? I did never suggest we should have a gear grind or anything like that.

About the grind in WoW vs GW2. What I also said many times it really depends on your preferred game-play. I play WoW as well but never had a problem with grind there, simply because I care for cosmetics and not for stats. Cosmetics and other fun items there are not a big grind but most have all their own fun way of hunting them down. Getting the best gear there might be a grind.

In GW2 it’s just the other way around. However at the same time GW2 is all build around cosmetics, so that makes it imo even worse. Now if you as player prefer stats (as is, getting the gear to do the highest level content) yes I completely understand that you might not consider GW2 to be a grind.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

Yes yes yes , we have heard the doomslayers 3 years now … thanks you for your contribution :P

A WIld Prophet appears !

Before making comments , you have to educate yourself
Like that in the previous wow exmpasnion 12 million bought the x-pack and 1 year later they had 6,7 million subs .
So ppl come and go as they please .
So ‘’wild population swings’’ exists , but you simply closes your ears

Simply … if you dont know some basic ’’thngs’’/informations …. you can ask us …

Now … truly smart ppl can play multiply video gameo games …. while we are stuck with the ‘’other kind’’ in the forums :P

Well if you take the WoW example. Sure they go up and down, but over the 10 years total they did manage to keep up a big player-base.

GW1 was also able to keep a steady player-base over it’s life-spawn GW2 on the other hand has seem a drop ever since release (in income at least).

About people talking about a doomsday for 3 years. Personally I always looked at it for the long-term (2-5 / 3 years) because GW2 simply had a good core so has a good momentum. With HoT coming in this period I would add another half year to that (3,5 year), but not in the dooms-day scenario that it would be completely dead after that (IF they would not fix some of these core problems like the grind) but that it simply would become some second rank MMO while at the moment I think it is still a first rank MMO. However also now it’s not as popular as it could have been imho.

While I must also say Anet is very good at preventing a real drop in players to happen. Not so much with the LS but with the right solution just in time. For example when people got tired pretty soon after release Fractals was a good way to solve that. Then the temporary content of the LS was a real thread to the game and also that got solved imo just in time to prevent to many people getting burned out by that. Then now somewhere between the 2,5 and 3 years they come with the expansion. So who knows what they come with 5 / 6 months after release, maybe something that solves this grind or at least puts enough other things in the game to keep people busy with that moving away from the cosmetics as their focus point.

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

I totally ambiguous because nothing there define what Anet means by grind. Besides, that’s not a promise of a grind free game either.

I’ll repeat it again. I was talking about ascended gear. Why are you generalizing my statement to “grind-free game?” Also, read the post I linked. The definition of grind is contained there.

Yes, I see that … and according to their definition IN THE POST YOU LINK, you don’t need to grind for Ascended gear because they define grind as having to repeated do the same boring content over and over again. IN GW2 you don’t need to do that to get ascended gear.

Yeah, right. It’s about as correct as saying that you don’t need to work to live comfortably. Because you can earn money by doing things you like, or win a lottery (not going event o mention trying to define “living comfortably” to mean “at a subsistence level”, because you don’t need more, right?). So, technically true, but in practice a lot of bullkitten.

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I see that … and according to their definition IN THE POST YOU LINK, you don’t need to grind for Ascended gear because they define grind as having to repeated do the same boring content over and over again. IN GW2 you don’t need to do that to get ascended gear.

If grind is defined as repeating boring content over and over again, and the act of crafting is boring and repetitive, and (reliably) getting ascended weapons and armor requires crafting, then it is, by that definition, a grind.

Edit: Note that I am not saying that it is a bad thing for a game to have some grind. It kind of seems to go with the territory in this genre, but it is here. It does exist.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

I totally ambiguous because nothing there define what Anet means by grind. Besides, that’s not a promise of a grind free game either.

I’ll repeat it again. I was talking about ascended gear. Why are you generalizing my statement to “grind-free game?” Also, read the post I linked. The definition of grind is contained there.

Yes, I see that … and according to their definition IN THE POST YOU LINK, you don’t need to grind for Ascended gear because they define grind as having to repeated do the same boring content over and over again. IN GW2 you don’t need to do that to get ascended gear.

Yeah, right. It’s about as correct as saying that you don’t need to work to live comfortably. Because you can earn money by doing things you like, or win a lottery (not going event o mention trying to define “living comfortably” to mean “at a subsistence level”, because you don’t need more, right?). So, technically true, but in practice a lot of bullkitten.

That analogy doesn’t make sense. If you need to live comfortably, there are certain things you must do depending on your definition of living comfortably. If you want to own ascended armor, you still must do certain things, but one of them isn’t to subject yourself to boring content.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I see that … and according to their definition IN THE POST YOU LINK, you don’t need to grind for Ascended gear because they define grind as having to repeated do the same boring content over and over again. IN GW2 you don’t need to do that to get ascended gear.

If grind is defined as repeating boring content over and over again, and the act of crafting is boring and repetitive, and (reliably) getting ascended weapons and armor requires crafting, then it is, by that definition, a grind.

Edit: Note that I am not saying that it is a bad thing for a game to have some grind. It kind of seems to go with the territory in this genre, but it is here. It does exist.

Again, crafting being boring is a subjective opinion. It’s player dependent. If it bores you, just do a little bit at a time. You’re simply describing a self-imposed problem that Anet doesn’t need to intervene to address. The key word in Anet’s definition is boring. There are ways to avoid being bored, especially since we have options and choice.

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Actually, in basketball, that’s called practice, and it can involve a lot more than 30 makes in one session.

practice isnt the playing the game. Its practicing individual skills.

Do you think basketball would be popular if the game was designed such that you go, make 20 shots and go home? after doing this for 200 days you win the playoffs?

Generally, whatever passes for grind in GW2 is not a team sport. Even dungeons, which are a group effort, rarely represent a team the way the word is used in basketball. Basketball practice is not a spectator sport the way the games are. MMO PvE is not a spectator sport either. Using a team spectator sport as an analogy for a cooperative non-spectator game has its flaws.

Peoples’ interest in basketball (as players or spectators) is in the competition. The game remains the same, but individual games are different. Different levels of individual effort or whether one or more players have on or off days play a huge part in outcomes. The key is that the play is interesting because the outcome is generally uncertain. Expecting an MMO developer to be able to generate uncertainty in PvE content is a huge ask, especially since large segments of the MMO player base get upset over failure in games. So how, as a developer, are you going to entice players to play content over and over again if they don’t have to repeat it for rewards?

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

Yes, I see that … and according to their definition IN THE POST YOU LINK, you don’t need to grind for Ascended gear because they define grind as having to repeated do the same boring content over and over again. IN GW2 you don’t need to do that to get ascended gear.

If grind is defined as repeating boring content over and over again, and the act of crafting is boring and repetitive, and (reliably) getting ascended weapons and armor requires crafting, then it is, by that definition, a grind.

Edit: Note that I am not saying that it is a bad thing for a game to have some grind. It kind of seems to go with the territory in this genre, but it is here. It does exist.

Again, if crafting being boring is a subjective opinion. It’s player dependent. If it bores you, just do a little bit at a time. You’re simply describing a self-imposed problem that Anet doesn’t need to intervene to address.

Boring is always subjective. I am not the one who used it to define grind.

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.