Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards. Yet for some reason you hang your hat on this issue hoping someone at Anet agrees with your weak link between the two AND your proposal to fix it. I wish you GL with that because that’s about 3 steps removed from what I see the typical Dev team for an MMO doing.

Devata i mainly objected to the “better” statement in your post bigger maybe better not in my opinion and I shared why

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Crafting doesn’t need to be repetitive or boring, depending on how you do it. Player choice … it’s a thing. Admittedly, I don’t think they had a good way to get ascended armor to players other than crafting without straying from their game concepts of casual friendly, TP based, gold standard etc… so if anything the crafting element is as close to whatever traditional definition of grind players might have and maybe even Anet will admit the crafting requirement for Ascended is grindy, I don’t know. If they do, then it’s obvious it’s a necessary, unpleasant deviation from their philosophy.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

I like WvW (well it gets a little boring after a while, but HoT might give it some new life), I like the guild, guild-missions and hope guild-halls will be implemented in a good way. So there are things else I would have left already.

But yes, if it comes to the core of this game, cosmetics, then there is little fun for me as a boring brainless never-ending currency grind is not my thing.

And yes it’s the reward system that is my problem. I prefer an interesting hunt as reward system over a grindy system. Grind is always linked to the reward system, and not in a weak way.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Devata i mainly objected to the “better” statement in your post bigger maybe better not in my opinion and I shared why

Well there is a reason I said “better / bigger”. Just depends how you define the word I guess thats exactly why I put it that way.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.

Here’s an example of what would not work in most other MMO’s in the market right now which works in GW2: take a year break and come back with no loss in character power. (I actually did that and came back 3 weeks ago due to HoT hype). My characters level of power remained the absolute same as 1 year ago since there was no gear depreciation. Try doing that in just about any other MMO and you’ll be in for a suprise.

Is there grind in GW2? Yes. Is there powercreep that requires constant grind to “keep up”? No. (minor gated content in fractals due to agony, but getting the needed ar is dirt easy nowadays).

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

I like WvW (well it gets a little boring after a while, but HoT might give it some new life), I like the guild, guild-missions and hope guild-halls will be implemented in a good way. So there are things else I would have left already.

But yes, if it comes to the core of this game, cosmetics, then there is little fun for me as a boring brainless never-ending currency grind is not my thing.

And yes it’s the reward system that is my problem. I prefer an interesting hunt as reward system over a grindy system. Grind is always linked to the reward system, and not in a weak way.

You haven’t figured out that fixing grind wont necessarily result in what you are after. You argue grind is bad, but then argue for a different way to grind. That’s not a sensible way to get what you want. Just say what you want in a thread that won’t contradict it. It’s quite ridiculous to be frank.

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly.

Sure, and if this was a purely academic discussion, that would be correct. We can imagine all the ‘perfect’ ways to have anything we want. They aren’t relevant when it actually comes down to considerations to implement them. The reality is that assuming Anet even agrees with any of this stuff you say, they aren’t going to ask you how it should be implemented; they are going to do it their way and unlikely to do it ‘correctly’ according to what you think. This is where the rubber hit the road.

Devata.6589:

Cyninja.2954:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.

Here’s an example of what would not work in most other MMO’s in the market right now which works in GW2: take a year break and come back with no loss in character power. (I actually did that and came back 3 weeks ago due to HoT hype). My characters level of power remained the absolute same as 1 year ago since there was no gear depreciation. Try doing that in just about any other MMO and you’ll be in for a suprise.

Is there grind in GW2? Yes. Is there powercreep that requires constant grind to “keep up”? No. (minor gated content in fractals due to agony, but getting the needed ar is dirt easy nowadays).

Doing new or higher level content is also optional.

Playing content a different level in the ‘hierarchy of needs’ than the option to craft ascended gear. The fulfillment from playing the game is a different level than the fulfillment of obtaining something from playing the game. Therefore, your comparison is not sensible.

Once you start arguing semantics you might as well shut up.

So Anet said there will be no grind according to their definition of grind.

Which is different from the definition everybody else uses, and would also make other MMOs grind free if applied to them.

Better go enjoy your grind free MMO lol.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly.

Sure, and if this was a purely academic discussion, that would be correct. We can imagine all the ‘perfect’ ways to have anything we want. They aren’t relevant when it actually comes down to considerations to implement them. The reality is that assuming Anet even agrees with any of this stuff you say, they aren’t going to ask you how it should be implemented; they are going to do it their way and unlikely to do it ‘correctly’ according to what you think. This is where the rubber hit the road.

Maybe but if there are to many of ‘me’ it will in the end mainly be ‘their’ loss.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

Your and my experience of WoW grind must have been a very different one. Take off the rose tinted glasses. The grind in WoW was just as bad if not worse crafting wise. Go some where and you had you materials after a couple of minutes? More like fly (ride for the vanilla players) for multiple hours hunting shared material nodes to craft useless items just to increase your crafting skill.

There is also one of the biggest differences. WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting level for the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion. In GW2 crafting actually provides items required in the ingame economy, big difference balance wise.

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

Your and my experience of WoW grind must have been a very different one. Take off the rose tinted glasses. The grind in WoW was just as bad if not worse crafting wise. Go some where and you had you materials after a couple of minutes? More like fly (ride for the vanilla players) for multiple hours hunting shared material nodes to craft useless items just to increase your crafting skill.

There is also one of the biggest differences. WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting level for the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion. In GW2 crafting actually provides items required in the ingame economy, big difference balance wise.

The difference is that Blizzard never aimed to make a grind free mmo.
Anet does claim that.

Now while its obviously crap that only works because of their very convenient definition of grind, there are still a lot of people buying that crap.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Cyninja.2954:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.

Here’s an example of what would not work in most other MMO’s in the market right now which works in GW2: take a year break and come back with no loss in character power. (I actually did that and came back 3 weeks ago due to HoT hype). My characters level of power remained the absolute same as 1 year ago since there was no gear depreciation. Try doing that in just about any other MMO and you’ll be in for a suprise.

Is there grind in GW2? Yes. Is there powercreep that requires constant grind to “keep up”? No. (minor gated content in fractals due to agony, but getting the needed ar is dirt easy nowadays).

Doing new or higher level content is also optional.

That’s a different level of ‘needs’ than the option to craft ascended gear. The fulfillment from playing the game is a different level than the fulfillment of obtaining something from playing the game. Therefore, your comparison is not sensible.

That totally depends on the player. There are plenty people who care more for cosmetics then for doing the highest level dungeons (that they them maybe would need the best gear for).

So for them the ‘need’ or ‘fulfillment’ is not in playing that content but in getting those cosmetics.

Devata.6589:

Maybe but if there are to many of ‘me’ it will in the end mainly be ‘their’ loss.

OK, but that’s neither here nor there; it’s an empty threat because Anet knows better than anyone about how their choices to develop the game affect customer retention, acquisition rates, etc… They know better than any of us. Arguments about ‘losing customers’ have no basis in facts. These scare tactics and fear-mongering are laughable, especially if you’re the person holding the data.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Cyninja.2954:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.

Here’s an example of what would not work in most other MMO’s in the market right now which works in GW2: take a year break and come back with no loss in character power. (I actually did that and came back 3 weeks ago due to HoT hype). My characters level of power remained the absolute same as 1 year ago since there was no gear depreciation. Try doing that in just about any other MMO and you’ll be in for a suprise.

Is there grind in GW2? Yes. Is there powercreep that requires constant grind to “keep up”? No. (minor gated content in fractals due to agony, but getting the needed ar is dirt easy nowadays).

Doing new or higher level content is also optional.

That’s a different level of ‘needs’ than the option to craft ascended gear. The fulfillment from playing the game is a different level than the fulfillment of obtaining something from playing the game. Therefore, your comparison is not sensible.

That totally depends on the player. There are plenty people who care more for cosmetics then for doing the highest level dungeons (that they them maybe would need the best gear for).

So for them the ‘need’ or ‘fulfillment’ is not in playing that content but in getting those cosmetics.

You don’t understand what I said. The kind of need that playing the game fulfills is different than the kind of need that is fulfilled when you obtain some gear while playing the game. That’s important to recognize if you want to appear intelligent when making comparisons between different, optional activities. Bottom line, you can only compare within the same level of needs fulfillment. Few people understand this.

The need to play is not at the same level as the need to obtain gear because obtaining gear depends on someone already fulfilling their need to play. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, go have a look and understand how it applies to this situation.

Arkinos.7245:

Now while its obviously crap that only works because of their very convenient definition of grind, there are still a lot of people buying that crap.

There is a reason people ‘buy that crap’. It’s because they are objective, apply it to how they play and realize it works within the structure of this game. They also recognize that it’s a very reasonable approach; set a target, implement and see how close you are to the goal. Anet sets the targets by defining grind in their game. That’s so unreasonable to you because you can’t break out from your predispositions or because their definition of grind doesn’t appeal to you, regardless if it’s right or not.

Arkinos.7245:

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

Your and my experience of WoW grind must have been a very different one. Take off the rose tinted glasses. The grind in WoW was just as bad if not worse crafting wise. Go some where and you had you materials after a couple of minutes? More like fly (ride for the vanilla players) for multiple hours hunting shared material nodes to craft useless items just to increase your crafting skill.

There is also one of the biggest differences. WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting level for the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion. In GW2 crafting actually provides items required in the ingame economy, big difference balance wise.

The difference is that Blizzard never aimed to make a grind free mmo.
Anet does claim that.

Now while its obviously crap that only works because of their very convenient definition of grind, there are still a lot of people buying that crap.

I never said Blizzard aimed to accomplish such a feat. I was answering the comparison that crafting in WoW was supposedly “fun”. At the same time pointing out that even when comparing both crating mechanics, one of them provides near no usefull items at endgame, the other one does.

Second you might want to reread the part about powercreep and not having to grind to keep up with it, which is essentially what anet promised and has delivered on. Every game has grind, maybe you’ll want to educate yourself about how many forms of grind there actually are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_%28video_gaming%29 . Even repeatedly replaying a shooter stage, fighting game, etc. can be considered grinding due to trying to hones ones skills.

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

Your and my experience of WoW grind must have been a very different one. Take off the rose tinted glasses. The grind in WoW was just as bad if not worse crafting wise. Go some where and you had you materials after a couple of minutes? More like fly (ride for the vanilla players) for multiple hours hunting shared material nodes to craft useless items just to increase your crafting skill.

There is also one of the biggest differences. WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting level for the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion. In GW2 crafting actually provides items required in the ingame economy, big difference balance wise.

Getting to the place indeed always took time while I don’t think that is considered grinding (nor do I have a problem with that, it makes the world feel bigger). And yes half a hour was usually enough to get the mats you needed for the next item you where working on. (No need to grind for gold multiple hours to buy the mats you need like in GW2)

Then crafting useless items.. well that is likely true for some crafts (that I did not like those) but for the fun crafts that isn’t true.. Well considering I did not see cosmetics as useless.

The second thing on the list you could create with engineering was dynamite what was already fun to fool around with. Then a bomb, then better dynamite then a mini, then a target dummy, then other types of dynamite, then fireworks, then some strange toys, then companions that would heal you, then exploding sheeps.. and so on and so on. No grind in that, it was like being a boy in a candy shop getting from the one candy to the next. There was never a lot of leveling between those items.

Now that is exactly what we should see in a ‘casual’, ‘cosmetic’ focused game like GW2 for it to be a real big success imho. And of course the hunt for that sort of things.

“WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting” Lol, no I did it to get the next item.. now in GW2 crafting is useless until level 400 or 500. Are you sure you are not mixing up some things?

“or the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion.” Well like in the example, it where not 1 or 2 items and the nice thing about toys and cosmetics is that they do not get obsolete in the next expansion.

I completely get where you are coming from, don’t get me wrong.

You are the type of person who wants the best gear / stats, maybe also wants to do the hardest dungeon. Me on the other hand, I have no problem with doing the hardest dungeon but don’t care for gear and if that locks me out of that dungeon so be it, for me those cosmetics are a huge part of the game.

So from your perspective I can completely understand you love how GW2 is not a grind for you and I can understand how WoW was grind for you. But for people who like cosmetics and the hunt for cosmetics it’s just the other way around.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Maybe but if there are to many of ‘me’ it will in the end mainly be ‘their’ loss.

OK, but that’s neither here nor there; it’s an empty threat because Anet knows better than anyone about how their choices to develop the game affect customer retention, acquisition rates, etc… They know better than any of us. Arguments about ‘losing customers’ have no basis in facts. These scare tactics and fear-mongering are laughable, especially if you’re the person holding the data.

Ah this again. I did hear the same from people defending the temporary content in the threads about that. Eventually also Anet had to come back on that.

Also Anet can be wrong or blinded by some things. And the data does show income only going down while the Living Story was supposed to keep it steady. Another thing where it looks like Anet was wrong while again enough people on the forums stated from the beginning the LS would not be able to hold customers.

No, Anet is not some oracle that is all seeing.

Devata.6589:

Getting to the place indeed always took time while I don’t think that is considered grinding (nor do I have a problem with that, it makes the world feel bigger). And yes half a hour was usually enough to get the mats you needed for the next item you where working on. (No need to grind for gold multiple hours to buy the mats you need like in GW2)

Then crafting useless items.. well that is likely true for some crafts (that I did not like those) but for the fun crafts that isn’t true.. Well considering I did not see cosmetics as useless.

The second thing on the list you could create with engineering was dynamite what was already fun to fool around with. Then a bomb, then better dynamite then a mini, then a target dummy, then other types of dynamite, then fireworks, then some strange toys, then companions that would heal you, then exploding sheeps.. and so on and so on. No grind in that, it was like being a boy in a candy shop getting from the one candy to the next. There was never a lot of leveling between those items.

Now that is exactly what we should see in a ‘casual’, ‘cosmetic’ focused game like GW2 for it to be a real big success imho. And of course the hunt for that sort of things.

“WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting” Lol, no I did it to get the next item.. now in GW2 crafting is useless until level 400 or 500. Are you sure you are not mixing up some things?

“or the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion.” Well like in the example, it where not 1 or 2 items and the nice thing about toys and cosmetics is that they do not get obsolete in the next expansion.

I completely get where you are coming from, don’t get me wrong.

You are the type of person who wants the best gear / stats, maybe also wants to do the hardest dungeon. Me on the other hand, I have no problem with doing the hardest dungeon but don’t care for gear and if that locks me out of that dungeon so be it, for me those cosmetics are a huge part of the game.

So from your perspective I can completely understand you love how GW2 is not a grind for you and I can understand how WoW was grind for you. But for people who like cosmetics and the hunt for cosmetics it’s just the other way around.

What your basically saying is, you want a crafting profession for doodles and useless stuff, and no, none of the items in engineering in WoW were any where near useful for years. They were fluff, I’ll agree to that. They were funny (sometimes) and essentially served as comedic relief. The majority of crafting was not.

It’s not about maximum stats. It’s about Anet stating that they want to allow players to experience as much of their game (events, dungeons, story, etc.) as they can with a minimum of grind required even with the addition of new content. This game is Buy2play, they’re business model demands some kind of revenue. Optional and cosmetic items is their approach.

I get more and more the feeling this game really isn’t for you. You might want to check out some other more traditional MMOs where the “fluff” is added in for “free” thanks to a recurring subscription.

Cyninja.2954:

Arkinos.7245:

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

Your and my experience of WoW grind must have been a very different one. Take off the rose tinted glasses. The grind in WoW was just as bad if not worse crafting wise. Go some where and you had you materials after a couple of minutes? More like fly (ride for the vanilla players) for multiple hours hunting shared material nodes to craft useless items just to increase your crafting skill.

There is also one of the biggest differences. WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting level for the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion. In GW2 crafting actually provides items required in the ingame economy, big difference balance wise.

The difference is that Blizzard never aimed to make a grind free mmo.
Anet does claim that.

Now while its obviously crap that only works because of their very convenient definition of grind, there are still a lot of people buying that crap.

I never said Blizzard aimed to accomplish such a feat. I was answering the comparison that crafting in WoW was supposedly “fun”. At the same time pointing out that even when comparing both crating mechanics, one of them provides near no usefull items at endgame, the other one does.

Second you might want to reread the part about powercreep and not having to grind to keep up with it, which is essentially what anet promised and has delivered on. Every game has grind, maybe you’ll want to educate yourself about how many forms of grind there actually are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_%28video_gaming%29 . Even repeatedly replaying a shooter stage, fighting game, etc. can be considered grinding due to trying to hones ones skills.

honing ones skills has zero to do with grinding.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Cyninja.2954:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.

Here’s an example of what would not work in most other MMO’s in the market right now which works in GW2: take a year break and come back with no loss in character power. (I actually did that and came back 3 weeks ago due to HoT hype). My characters level of power remained the absolute same as 1 year ago since there was no gear depreciation. Try doing that in just about any other MMO and you’ll be in for a suprise.

Is there grind in GW2? Yes. Is there powercreep that requires constant grind to “keep up”? No. (minor gated content in fractals due to agony, but getting the needed ar is dirt easy nowadays).

Doing new or higher level content is also optional.

That’s a different level of ‘needs’ than the option to craft ascended gear. The fulfillment from playing the game is a different level than the fulfillment of obtaining something from playing the game. Therefore, your comparison is not sensible.

That totally depends on the player. There are plenty people who care more for cosmetics then for doing the highest level dungeons (that they them maybe would need the best gear for).

So for them the ‘need’ or ‘fulfillment’ is not in playing that content but in getting those cosmetics.

You don’t understand what I said. The kind of need that playing the game fulfills is different than the kind of need that is fulfilled when you obtain some gear while playing the game. That’s important to recognize if you want to appear intelligent when making comparisons between different, optional activities. Bottom line, you can only compare within the same level of needs fulfillment. Few people understand this.

The need to play is not at the same level as the need to obtain gear because obtaining gear depends on someone already fulfilling their need to play. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, go have a look and understand how it applies to this situation.

“Bottom line, you can only compare within the same level of needs fulfillment. Few people understand this.” It seems like you fail to understand that this ‘needs fulfillment’ is personal.

“The need to play is not at the same level as the need to obtain gear” you see this for example. What is playing, but lets keep it at doing some higher level dungeons (as that is what is usually locked out by gear).

For you doing that dungeon might be on a higher level. Another person however might not give a kitten thing about that dungeon but is all bout getting that gear or cosmetic. So for him that dungeon is on a lower lever while those items are on a higher level. Even if there would be some item locked behind that dungeon he still cares more for the item then for the dungeon.

Just because you find the one more interesting does not mean its on some universal higher level.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Maybe but if there are to many of ‘me’ it will in the end mainly be ‘their’ loss.

OK, but that’s neither here nor there; it’s an empty threat because Anet knows better than anyone about how their choices to develop the game affect customer retention, acquisition rates, etc… They know better than any of us. Arguments about ‘losing customers’ have no basis in facts. These scare tactics and fear-mongering are laughable, especially if you’re the person holding the data.

Ah this again. I did hear the same from people defending the temporary content in the threads about that. Eventually also Anet had to come back on that.

Also Anet can be wrong or blinded by some things. And the data does show income only going down while the Living Story was supposed to keep it steady. Another thing where it looks like Anet was wrong while again enough people on the forums stated from the beginning the LS would not be able to hold customers.

No, Anet is not some oracle that is all seeing.

No they are not, and I’m sure things developed and changed as they went along (see ascended armor). Their recent announcement of HoT and its features shows that they are still commited to some of their initial design decisions. (Buy2play, cosmetics are optional, no powercreep).

Once they decide to move away from that, we can talk.

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

~

~

“They were fluff,”
And while it seems this is completely not understandable for you.. in an MMORPG there are plenty of people who care more for that fluff that for some numbers.

“This game is Buy2play, they’re business model demands some kind of revenue. Optional and cosmetic items is their approach.”
Yeah Buy2Play indeed, but they moved more to a system you see with F2P game so cash-shop games. In a Buy2Play game you buy the content you play, not the items in that content. That is why I always bring up this thing (well now you do that). It’s that shift from truly B2P to cash-shop (F2P like model) that is indeed the core of this problem. Would they have focused on expansion instead to make their money, releasing an expansion a year there would be no need to take the fun out of cosmetics and make it one big boring grind.

Obviously from a monetize perspective it makes a little sense (when not thinking long-term). Create a game about cosmetics, get all those people who like cosmetics, promote your game as not being a grind (ah yeah no we mean grind for gear) to make sure you also get people who don’t like grind, then make those cosmetics a big boring grind and give people a way to buy out of their grind.

Well yeah you found the core of the problem we are talking about here.

So in the end, 2,5 years after release we are left with a game that is not for those who like cosmetics but mainly for those who like stats or are fine with grinding. Of course that is also undermining their complete business model. Sure their is still a group left they is fine with simply buying what they want but the big question is if that group is big enough.

“I get more and more the feeling this game really isn’t for you.”
If it comes to the cosmetics parts no it isn’t indeed. Funny thing is, this game all being about cosmetics it should be.. Now you obviously not caring so much about cosmetics you can wonder if it should have been your game.

And yes I do play those games once in a while simply for the joy of hunting down those items. Something GW2 should have offered but doesn’t. Also it’s not about something being ‘for free’. I don’t mind buying an expansion a year. I was prepared to have spend more money on GW2 then I did, simply because I do not buy gems but was willing to buy expansions (on a yearly base), even collector editions. So it has nothing to do with expecting something for free. It simply has to do with fun.

Devata.6589:

No, Anet is not some oracle that is all seeing.

You’re right, they aren’t an oracle but they aren’t stupid either … are you trying to imply they should bet against their own better judgement? THAT would be stupid.

Obtena.7952:

You argue grind is bad, but then argue for a different way to grind.

Yeah, that’s confused me a bit too. But I must bow to the superior intellect and/or not-insane one and decree there is no grind in their model, only “selective farming”.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

No, Anet is not some oracle that is all seeing.

You’re right, they aren’t an oracle but they aren’t stupid either … are you trying to imply they should bet against their own better judgement? THAT would be stupid.

I don’t think it’s stupid to do that, but I do think it is stupid to wager something you cannot afford to lose.

They cannot afford to lose.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obtena.7952:

You argue grind is bad, but then argue for a different way to grind.

Yeah, that’s confused me a bit too. But I must bow to the superior intellect and/or not-insane one and decree there is no grind in their model, only “selective farming”.

Where did ‘they’ say their model was completely grind free?

If you define different smaller farms as a grind (that depends on the person) it could be less grind and smaller junks of grind but nowhere did I see anybody say their model would dissolve all grind in the game for everybody completely.

If you define anything with RNG as grind I don’t think you can completely remove grind (while again that depends on how you define it. Like somebody else stated here. An item with a drop-change of 75% is rarely considered a grind while it still is RNG) but reduce it and make smaller chunks of different farms of it and combine it more with non-grindy ways to get rewards.

Devata.6589:

Well if you take the WoW example. Sure they go up and down, but over the 10 years total they did manage to keep up a big player-base.

GW1 was also able to keep a steady player-base over it’s life-spawn GW2 on the other hand has seem a drop ever since release (in income at least).

About people talking about a doomsday for 3 years. Personally I always looked at it for the long-term (2-5 / 3 years) because GW2 simply had a good core so has a good momentum. With HoT coming in this period I would add another half year to that (3,5 year), but not in the dooms-day scenario that it would be completely dead after that (IF they would not fix some of these core problems like the grind) but that it simply would become some second rank MMO while at the moment I think it is still a first rank MMO. However also now it’s not as popular as it could have been imho.

While I must also say Anet is very good at preventing a real drop in players to happen. Not so much with the LS but with the right solution just in time. For example when people got tired pretty soon after release Fractals was a good way to solve that. Then the temporary content of the LS was a real thread to the game and also that got solved imo just in time to prevent to many people getting burned out by that. Then now somewhere between the 2,5 and 3 years they come with the expansion. So who knows what they come with 5 / 6 months after release, maybe something that solves this grind or at least puts enough other things in the game to keep people busy with that moving away from the cosmetics as their focus point.

So GW1 had a steady player-base while GW2 is always declining? Got any data to back that up? Because the actual data we do have tells a different story:

This is a graph of GW1 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-1.jpg[/img]

and this is a graph of GW2 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-2.jpg[/img]

As you can very clearly see from the graphs, the worst point in GW2 history (Q4 2014) had more income than the BEST point in GW1 history (Q4 2006)

Yes GW2 has a problem with sales. GW2 has a very steady income, with the big spike at release and another possible spike when HoT is released, but otherwise the game is very stable when it comes to income.

Maybe when you are talking about a steady decline in income you were watching the GW1 data and not the GW2 data? Because the data suggest otherwise. I’d love to see where you get your info, besides “that’s what I think” which is where you are basing everything. Well what you think and reality are different.

According to you, a game that at it’s lowest point outperforms GW1 is going to “die” some day soon? I don’t think that makes any kind of sense. I guess GW1 was always a second-rank MMO to you, if at it’s best couldn’t perform better than how GW2 is performing now….

Devata.6589:

Where did ‘they’ say their model was completely grind free?

If you define different smaller farms as a grind (that depends on the person) it could be less grind and smaller junks of grind but nowhere did I see anybody say their model would dissolve all grind in the game for everybody completely.

And ANet never said their game was completely grindless either, yet . . .

If you define anything with RNG as grind I don’t think you can completely remove grind (while again that depends on how you define it. Like somebody else stated here. An item with a drop-change of 75% is rarely considered a grind while it still is RNG) but reduce it and make smaller chunks of different farms of it and combine it more with non-grindy ways to get rewards.

Which you keep saying, but you offer no ideas of how it would work other than “it just would”. In fact, I seem to recall you also said it wasn’t your job to work anymore on it other than to offer a vague idea.

As good an idea as it looks, maybe it’s just another one of those which doesn’t work out when introduced to players. I mean it’s not like there’s a shortage
of things which look fun but really don’t work that way when put to the test . . .

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Well if you take the WoW example. Sure they go up and down, but over the 10 years total they did manage to keep up a big player-base.

GW1 was also able to keep a steady player-base over it’s life-spawn GW2 on the other hand has seem a drop ever since release (in income at least).

About people talking about a doomsday for 3 years. Personally I always looked at it for the long-term (2-5 / 3 years) because GW2 simply had a good core so has a good momentum. With HoT coming in this period I would add another half year to that (3,5 year), but not in the dooms-day scenario that it would be completely dead after that (IF they would not fix some of these core problems like the grind) but that it simply would become some second rank MMO while at the moment I think it is still a first rank MMO. However also now it’s not as popular as it could have been imho.

While I must also say Anet is very good at preventing a real drop in players to happen. Not so much with the LS but with the right solution just in time. For example when people got tired pretty soon after release Fractals was a good way to solve that. Then the temporary content of the LS was a real thread to the game and also that got solved imo just in time to prevent to many people getting burned out by that. Then now somewhere between the 2,5 and 3 years they come with the expansion. So who knows what they come with 5 / 6 months after release, maybe something that solves this grind or at least puts enough other things in the game to keep people busy with that moving away from the cosmetics as their focus point.

So GW1 had a steady player-base while GW2 is always declining? Got any data to back that up? Because the actual data we do have tells a different story:

This is a graph of GW1 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-1.jpg[/img]

and this is a graph of GW2 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-2.jpg[/img]

As you can very clearly see from the graphs, the worst point in GW2 history (Q4 2014) had more income than the BEST point in GW1 history (Q4 2006)

Yes GW2 has a problem with sales. GW2 has a very steady income, with the big spike at release and another possible spike when HoT is released, but otherwise the game is very stable when it comes to income.

Maybe when you are talking about a steady decline in income you were watching the GW1 data and not the GW2 data? Because the data suggest otherwise. I’d love to see where you get your info, besides “that’s what I think” which is where you are basing everything. Well what you think and reality are different.

According to you, a game that at it’s lowest point outperforms GW1 is going to “die” some day soon? I don’t think that makes any kind of sense. I guess GW1 was always a second-rank MMO to you, if at it’s best couldn’t perform better than how GW2 is performing now….

that shows that guildwars1 was able to build or maintain its earnings throughout its life(keep in mind gw was primarily box sales), whereas Gw2 has been downhill since release.
GW1 decline basically occurs when they decide to put most resources to gw2, which makes sense.

basically, gw1 was able to maintain its intial playerbase, and even expand on it, whereas the first 2.5 years of gw2 show a fairly consistent decrease.

Now, you are right, gw2 has earned more than gw1 by far, but if you are talking about maintaining/increasing earnings(and probably playerbase) GW2 was failing.

now, with the expansion coming out, that may change, but that remains to be seen. I personally believe they waited too long, and wont have enough in this expansion to go back to initial sales numbers, or beat it, like they did with gw1, but they will probably do pretty well.

phys.7689:

that shows that guildwars1 was able to build or maintain its earnings throughout its life(keep in mind gw was primarily box sales), whereas Gw2 has been downhill since release.

How do you come to that conclusion? The GW2 graph is a very stable one, aside from the huge spike and decline at release. And even at its worst point it’s still higher than GW1 ever did.

basically, gw1 was able to maintain its intial playerbase, and even expand on it, whereas the first 2.5 years of gw2 show a fairly consistent decrease.

But after Nightfall was released it never really expanded the playerbase, EotN had less appeal than Nightfall.

Now, you are right, gw2 has earned more than gw1 by far, but if you are talking about maintaining/increasing earnings(and probably playerbase) GW2 was failing.
now, with the expansion coming out, that may change, but that remains to be seen. I personally believe they waited too long, and wont have enough in this expansion to go back to initial sales numbers, or beat it, like they did with gw1, but they will probably do pretty well.

The Campaigns of GW1 were new games, not expansions, that’s why an expansion (Nightfall) outperformed the original game. That can’t be done in an expansion as easily

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

playing things many times to get better isnt really grind, because its not based on how many times you do it, but how well you do it. I mean, you may find it boring, or frustrating, but thats not a grind.

That’s actually precisely what a grind is.

What makes something grindy is a repetition of an action that is essentially boring.

now if its a challenging content and that you have not conquered it makes you want to try again.. than sure, that could make repetition completely non-grindy but the moment you become frustrated and bored if you’re forced to repeat that content or else you have no other option than thats where grind begins.

frustration just means you are annoyed, that can happen at any time on one try or the 1000th
boredom is the same. If you define something as being bored, as grindy, then even doing something once is grindy, which is not what grind is about.

Also, i contend that repetition to achieve skill/knowledge isnt really grindy, because doing the same thing(that doesnt work) will not allow you to progress.

now this isnt to say you want people to quit from frustration, but just that frustration and grind are two different types of issues

Its not reptition on its own, its no frustration on its own, its not boring…ness? on its own, its all those element coming together that create grind.

Repetition on its own is not grind.
When you’re exploring around strictly speaking you’re pressing w over and over and over again. its probably the most repetitive task you do in an mmo but its not boring, hence it doesnt feel grindy.

The mad clock tower was pretty frustrating until you got the hang of it, it was pretty repetitive too, same level design, the same condition etc… but it was challenging enough that for people who like jumping puzzles it wasnt boring hence not a grind.

for a purely pvp player, pve may be boring but if once in a while they join a guild mate on a dungeon run cause they’re missing 1 player its not going to be a grind (there is no repetition there)

its all these elements coming together that makes a grind. Take the mad clock tower as an example. it was repetitive and frustrating but since i enjoy jumping puzzles it didnt turn into a grind. What if I didnt enjoy jumping puzzles though? after a while I would get bored. So I am repeating this activity, I am frustrated and I am getting bored. dont you think the whole thing will feel like a grind?

I dont see whether you conquered the challenge or not making much difference. Sure once you conquer it some of that “I must win this” drive goes away and that may cause boredom to set in quicker but i dont think anyone is really persistent enough that after a long time trying without success they’ll resist boredom setting in anyway.

Devata.6589:

So in the end, 2,5 years after release we are left with a game that is not for those who like cosmetics but mainly for those who like stats or are fine with grinding. Of course that is also undermining their complete business model. Sure their is still a group left they is fine with simply buying what they want but the big question is if that group is big enough.

“I get more and more the feeling this game really isn’t for you.”
If it comes to the cosmetics parts no it isn’t indeed. Funny thing is, this game all being about cosmetics it should be.. Now you obviously not caring so much about cosmetics you can wonder if it should have been your game.

And you still do not understand what I’ve been trying to point out. This game was NOT catered to people who like to play dress-up. It was catered to people who don’t like powercreep. How is this so hard to understand?

Why would I quit? I enjoy the game as is, get cosmetic items if I want to and set personal goals as needed. Why is it so hard for you to let go of this game and realize, it won’t change to what you want it to be due to 1 simple reason: companys need to make money and Anet business model draws revenue from optional cosmetics.

phys.7689:

game design includes player behavior. The simple answer, is stop developing rewards based around 500 hours of play. Why isnt chess grindy? because it isnt designed around 500 hours of play, that is most likely to succeed with repetive play. Why isnt basketball grindy? because its not designed that way.

You mentioned this before, when you say content should last a player 100 hours. Yes, you want to design content that is highly replayable, no, the best answer to that is not to make you have to repeat it for 200 times to get some reward, that just makes the journey less entertaining. It actually tends to make the repetions themselves, less entertaining.

You’re simplifying things way too much.

For starters there is quite a substential difference between chess and mmos. MMOs are reward driven, chess is not. If you find chess boring there is no reason for your to play chess and you’re not going to force yourself to play chess for 100s of hours because there just isnt a compelling reason to do so. Not so in case of MMOs. In MMOs its unfortunately all about the rewards which is why we have this issue in the first place. Even if its entirely possible to put game play first enjoy your time in Gw2 and get your reward many players put the reward first. They make the reward dictate the game play (what gets you there quickest).

What would happen if you make an MMO more like chess and remove the reward element entirely? Well we can go back to launch and even today actually you can see plenty of people who reject cosmetics as a viable reward system. Did any of those player stay and recommend it to their friends cause even though it might not have any worthy rewards it offers fun gameplay?

Like it or not and trust me I dont like it, Rewards are at the core of MMOs.

This brings us to the next issue. When rewards are at your core you must make sure they never run out. If you go to a fast food burger place if they run out of salads it might not be a big deal, but if they run out of burgers? big no no! same thing here an MMO cannot afford to run out of rewards. Vertical progression games have it easy. Dish out a new tier, lock it behind a time gate make it last enough until you’re ready to release a new tier. You have no worries in that you know once you release a new set everyone and their alts will want to get it and they will get it. With horizontal progression its not that easy unfortunately. You can still release a new cosmetic set every 6 months like a vertical progression MMO does but until a vertical progression game its not going to be something everyone and their alts will want to get because

1. you have people who dont care about cosmetics
2. you have people who will not like it
3. you have people who may like it but it doesnt fit their current characters
4. people who may like it and find it a good fit for their characters but dont feel like putting in the effort required to get it.
5. People who may not like the set as a whole but fancy just a single or a few pieces of the set.

None of what gw2 does is to make content more replayable. if they really wanted to say make your run AC 200 times then why not make vision of the mists weapons acquirable by the tokens one gets on average from 200 runs? Its just about keeping the rewards in play. If you could get vision of the mists or any other named exotic within a few hours of play what would you do a couple of months in when you fully equipped all your alts the way you want?

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

I totally ambiguous because nothing there define what Anet means by grind. Besides, that’s not a promise of a grind free game either.

I’ll repeat it again. I was talking about ascended gear. Why are you generalizing my statement to “grind-free game?” Also, read the post I linked. The definition of grind is contained there.

Yes, I see that … and according to their definition IN THE POST YOU LINK, you don’t need to grind for Ascended gear because they define grind as having to repeated do the same boring content over and over again. IN GW2 you don’t need to do that to get ascended gear.

Yeah, right. It’s about as correct as saying that you don’t need to work to live comfortably. Because you can earn money by doing things you like, or win a lottery (not going event o mention trying to define “living comfortably” to mean “at a subsistence level”, because you don’t need more, right?). So, technically true, but in practice a lot of bullkitten.

no its not the same as saying you dont need to work to live comfortably. Its like saying you can do a single job you enjoy in order to living comfortably as opposed to getting the 2 or 3 highest paying jobs you can regardless if you enjoy them or not.

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

This is a bit perplexing though.

so lets say if you repeat a dungeon 100 times to earn 200g to buy a certain great sword. doing the 100 dungeon runs is boring.

but doing 100 dungeon runs where 99 times you get absolutely nothing, not even 1c but on the 100th run the great sword you’re after drops. you find that fun?

I mean is it really possible the content you’re playing has no baring on your enjoyment only the reward and how exactly you got that dictates is whatever you’re doing is fun or not?

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

that shows that guildwars1 was able to build or maintain its earnings throughout its life(keep in mind gw was primarily box sales), whereas Gw2 has been downhill since release.

How do you come to that conclusion? The GW2 graph is a very stable one, aside from the huge spike and decline at release. And even at its worst point it’s still higher than GW1 ever did.

basically, gw1 was able to maintain its intial playerbase, and even expand on it, whereas the first 2.5 years of gw2 show a fairly consistent decrease.

But after Nightfall was released it never really expanded the playerbase, EotN had less appeal than Nightfall.

Now, you are right, gw2 has earned more than gw1 by far, but if you are talking about maintaining/increasing earnings(and probably playerbase) GW2 was failing.
now, with the expansion coming out, that may change, but that remains to be seen. I personally believe they waited too long, and wont have enough in this expansion to go back to initial sales numbers, or beat it, like they did with gw1, but they will probably do pretty well.

The Campaigns of GW1 were new games, not expansions, that’s why an expansion (Nightfall) outperformed the original game. That can’t be done in an expansion as easily

gw1 was primarily box sales, the measure of its success is how many people want to invest in the next iteration. When eye of the north was released, they were already talking about gw2, (my box had a beta invite sign up in it, lol)

so essentially they maintained or expanded the interest in the product over time.
until the point that they anounced they were working on gw2, which was close to the release of eye in the north. Many people didnt buy Eye, because they felt GW2 existence meant gw1 would be a dying game. In fact the announced eye of the north as the last guild wars expansion

Expansions are often sold as stand alone collections for major companies. FFXI for example, basically released versions that included all the previous core/expansions in one game. This does allow the game to sell as well, (if you combine the expansion only sales and the collection sales)
GW2 is fairly unique in keeping the stand alones seperate forever, but thats probably because they were designed to be self contained, and had a buy to play model.

anyhow, devata is correct, that IF guild wars 2 was able to duplicate the continued interest and desire that gw1 had, and released a game every year, they would have made more money than they made with the current model.

However, the question is, could they do it? Who can say if they could make a new games worth of content in a year, or if they could maintain the same level of player interest that games like gw1, call of duty, or john madden were able to do.

but if they could? yeah it adds up to more money than they made with this plan.

phys.7689:

anyhow, devata is correct, that IF guild wars 2 was able to duplicate the continued interest and desire that gw1 had, and released a game every year, they would have made more money than they made with the current model.

Not really true, Devata is incorrect. What continued interest and desire? GW1 graph is going up and down BECAUSE it’s an expansion based release while GW2 is at a stable pace. Having a stable income (with occasional spikes with expansions) is better than spikes with nearly no income at all in between.

Releasing a game every year is different for a coop rpg and a true MMORPG, they could do it with the lobby game that was GW1 but can’t really do it with GW2. So they went for something different, and that different earns then far more money than the old model, there is no denying this.

phys.7689:

However, the question is, could they do it? Who can say if they could make a new games worth of content in a year, or if they could maintain the same level of player interest that games like gw1, call of duty, or john madden were able to do.

But GW2 DOES maintain the same level of player interest, the graph is stable, it’s the GW1 graph that shows the complete opposite with high fluctuations.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

This is a bit perplexing though.

so lets say if you repeat a dungeon 100 times to earn 200g to buy a certain great sword. doing the 100 dungeon runs is boring.

but doing 100 dungeon runs where 99 times you get absolutely nothing, not even 1c but on the 100th run the great sword you’re after drops. you find that fun?

I mean is it really possible the content you’re playing has no baring on your enjoyment only the reward and how exactly you got that dictates is whatever you’re doing is fun or not?

That’s the GW1 system, to get some high end skins you had to grind the specific content that dropped them for ages. Alternatively, you could earn gold by doing things you actually liked and buy those items.

In GW2 they removed the first option (grind specific content) and use the second option (earn gold how you want without grinding by enjoying the game). However there are lots of items that are acquired through content lately, glorious armor, carapace / luminescent armor etc

The GW1 system was equally grindy, or even way more grindy based on if you liked the content or not because it was pure RNG.

The Collection system is far superior than both systems and if it’s successful with precursors, maybe they will use it for lots of other things too

Galen Grey.4709:

edited for space?

gw2 did not provide enough depth of play to keep people interested when they reached 80. people talking about endgame are not just talking about leveling up. They are basically saying, what do you have for me to do in this game, that is entertaining, when i hit 80?
there really wasnt much, and they didnt design encounters that were very engaging. They were very much focused on a grind based endgame. They just did it poorly. Legendaries were too much of commitment, with too few stops along the way. The other special skins, were not even really known of existing, and required about 1/4th the grind of legendaries, which is still immense.

people talk about raid progression, and dont really realize, the raids themselves are more important than the rewards. The Instances are teired content that people can play through. You take out the Instances, and WoWs progression plan would quickly become stale and boring. WoW uses the rewards to make people play the best designed portions of their game, raids, dungeons, instanced content.

Gw2 rewards the least compelling parts of the game, or makes you play things with so many people that it becomes uncompelling.

Most people didnt stop playing GW1 when they hit 20, do you know why? because there was still a lot to do. There was still challenges to overcome. Still things to find. The truth is, its not the rewards that drive MMOs, its the content. gw2 reward system generally works against the content. Very few satisfying rewards, they focus on giving you a lot of stuff, rather than giving you quality stuff. Very few people ever got a very satisfying drop playing gw2, even though they may have earned a lot of wealth over time.

Now, this doesnt mean you make getting everything easy, but you dont design things as simply as we want people to play this game for 200 hours before they get X item. Thats not compelling, it doesnt keep you engaged. Its basically log in rewards.

your goal isnt to give people something for playing 200 hours, your goal is to make them want to play for 200 hours. Reward can be a part of that, but you have to design it so that it reinforces compelling play.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

However, the question is, could they do it? Who can say if they could make a new games worth of content in a year, or if they could maintain the same level of player interest that games like gw1, call of duty, or john madden were able to do.

But GW2 DOES maintain the same level of player interest, the graph is stable, it’s the GW1 graph that shows the complete opposite with high fluctuations.

it doesnt maintain its initial earnings/players. It has consisdently loss player interest/earnings.

you are looking at the graph wrong. look at the total earnings per year, compared to the total earnings per year.

when you look at it that way you will see that for the first 2-3 years, gw1 basically increased or maintained earnings, whereas GW2 consistenly goes down.

first year of release, 43k million kwan
2nd year of release 53k million kwan
3rd year of release 41k million kwan
fairly consistent, even considering halfway through 3rd year they took resources away from eye of the north, and put them towards gw2, and officially told people gw1 was ending.

now look at gw2
year one 160k million kwan (only 2 quarters)
year two 126 million kwan (4 quarters)
year three 84 million kwan (4 quarters)

did they make a lot more? hell yeah, are they maintaining earnings/interest in the game as well as gw1 did? not really.

if the same business plan worked as well as it did for gw1, based on gw2 initial sales, the numbers should have looked like this
year one 160
year two 192
year three 152

it doesnt really matter how much sales fluctuated throughout the year with gw1, its business plan was based on selling boxes, so of course when there will be drop offs, gw2 is nowhere near as consistent as gw1 is in interest/earnings when you look at it by year.

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

This is a bit perplexing though.

so lets say if you repeat a dungeon 100 times to earn 200g to buy a certain great sword. doing the 100 dungeon runs is boring.

but doing 100 dungeon runs where 99 times you get absolutely nothing, not even 1c but on the 100th run the great sword you’re after drops. you find that fun?

I mean is it really possible the content you’re playing has no baring on your enjoyment only the reward and how exactly you got that dictates is whatever you’re doing is fun or not?

That’s the GW1 system, to get some high end skins you had to grind the specific content that dropped them for ages. Alternatively, you could earn gold by doing things you actually liked and buy those items.

In GW2 they removed the first option (grind specific content) and use the second option (earn gold how you want without grinding by enjoying the game). However there are lots of items that are acquired through content lately, glorious armor, carapace / luminescent armor etc

The GW1 system was equally grindy, or even way more grindy based on if you liked the content or not because it was pure RNG.

The Collection system is far superior than both systems and if it’s successful with precursors, maybe they will use it for lots of other things too

I’ve been there and done that in Gw1 too

yeah I also have high hopes for the collection system, the only think I would improve on it is making it tell the player where they can get items from the collection, or better yet have some npcs give you direction when you talk to them about collections.

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

However, the question is, could they do it? Who can say if they could make a new games worth of content in a year, or if they could maintain the same level of player interest that games like gw1, call of duty, or john madden were able to do.

But GW2 DOES maintain the same level of player interest, the graph is stable, it’s the GW1 graph that shows the complete opposite with high fluctuations.

it doesnt maintain its initial earnings/players. It has consisdently loss player interest/earnings.

you are looking at the graph wrong. look at the total earnings per year, compared to the total earnings per year.

when you look at it that way you will see that for the first 2-3 years, gw1 basically increased or maintained earnings, whereas GW2 consistenly goes down.

The earnings of GW1 during 2005 dropped after release, which is natural for every game, then increased in 2006 because of the two expansions. What about 2007 that had the release of EotN? It plunged downwards. The GW2 graph is flatter across the board, sure it has a decline in it, and probably that’s why they are releasing an expansion now.

But the real question is if a different system would’ve worked in GW2. I don’t think so, people who advocate the expansion system believe that an expansion every year would spike the sales of the game when it was released (like what happened in GW1) however, if there was an expansion every year, then we wouldn’t have a stable income in-between the expansions.

You can’t expect for the game graph to be as it is now, but with an added expansion spike, that’s unreasonable as someone must work on that expansion. So with an expansion every year, the graph would be full of spikes and times of nothingness in-between, you can’t be certain that it would result in better income overall.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

However, the question is, could they do it? Who can say if they could make a new games worth of content in a year, or if they could maintain the same level of player interest that games like gw1, call of duty, or john madden were able to do.

But GW2 DOES maintain the same level of player interest, the graph is stable, it’s the GW1 graph that shows the complete opposite with high fluctuations.

it doesnt maintain its initial earnings/players. It has consisdently loss player interest/earnings.

you are looking at the graph wrong. look at the total earnings per year, compared to the total earnings per year.

when you look at it that way you will see that for the first 2-3 years, gw1 basically increased or maintained earnings, whereas GW2 consistenly goes down.

The earnings of GW1 during 2005 dropped after release, which is natural for every game, then increased in 2006 because of the two expansions. What about 2007 that had the release of EotN? It plunged downwards. The GW2 graph is flatter across the board, sure it has a decline in it, and probably that’s why they are releasing an expansion now.

But the real question is if a different system would’ve worked in GW2. I don’t think so, people who advocate the expansion system believe that an expansion every year would spike the sales of the game when it was released (like what happened in GW1) however, if there was an expansion every year, then we wouldn’t have a stable income in-between the expansions.

You can’t expect for the game graph to be as it is now, but with an added expansion spike, that’s unreasonable as someone must work on that expansion. So with an expansion every year, the graph would be full of spikes and times of nothingness in-between, you can’t be certain that it would result in better income overall.

In gw1, it worked to maintain interest
in gw2, it didnt.

thats probably part of why they decided to go back to expansions, their current system was seeing a consistent drop off with no returning surges. Eventually they would have continued to dwindle to nothing with the old system.

However, they are kind of late, imo, also this expansion doesnt seem that heavy on content.(conjecture based on release news) I doubt they will be able to get back to/exceed initial earnings levels. However, they are still quite profitable, and hot should definately give them a large boost in earnings.