Guild Wars 2

Gene Archer.8560:

killcannon.2576:

I’m tired of hearing about it because it’s just plain not helpful or constructive in any way.

Frankly, it’s all people have left to rally around, because…

killcannon.2576:

Got a specific suggestion? Post it. Got something specific you don’t like? Post it. Open up a decent discussion topic.

…This right here. You think this hasn’t been done? You think people haven’t tried this? Quit acting like that’s some new concept that people haven’t attempted.

Back in 2012, there was a gigantic thread about Ascended Gear. There were several in fact. I remember because I followed them. I posted in at least one of them and made my feelings known.

Know what happened to it? It got “looked at” by the devs before getting sent to the trash bin as Ascended Weapons and Armor got rolled out with nothing from that thread having ever been considered.

There has been a kittening years worth of feedback about stuff like this. About concepts like VP. About things like grind. About horizontal progression. All of it.

All that happens is that the devs “look at it” and “consider the feedback”, and then the thread disappears into obscurity with nothing ever changed.

I bet the same will ultimately happen with the current Character Progression CDI. But you know what? I did post in it. Several times now. I’ve made my feelings and opinions known.

Know who hasn’t posted his thoughts in that thread? Know who hasn’t told the devs his opinion on concepts like Vertical Progression, Horizontal Progression, and how the game can be improved?

The local white knight. Because he’s too busy telling players they’re wrong in threads that involve:

Discussing a glorified three year old commercial

that is supposedly

is beyond pointless.

And yet, for all the “pointlessness”, here you guys are, in this thread.

I am well aware of what some posters do. I’ve butted heads with some of em before on either side of the proverbial fence.

Doesn’t change the fact that “Manifesto this” and “Manifesto that” is a dead horse. Pick a topic you want from the Manifesto and champion that instead of this broad topic. Would be a better discussion.

Or not, don’t care. Have fun.

lordkrall.7241:

So what should they admit?

“Hello, we are a company, and the model we envisioned in our manifesto would not let the game survive nor make us enough money to be worth all the time and effort spent on it, therefore we made changes to interest a bigger audience”?

Holy kitten – one thousand times YES.

Honesty >>> Akward illogical explanations about how manifesto wasn’t literal or has been misunderstood.

“We put Ascended to hold WoW crow a bit more due to Nexon ordering us to milk them, we are sorry but they are the bosses” >>> “blablabla we felt that we lacked progression blablabla we never said anything about exotic being top gear blablabla”

Vayne.8563:

I’m forced to disagree with this. The amount of time spent talking about something indicates its importance.

So Justin Bieber, or insert teen heartthrob of the moment here, is more important than pretty much everything else in the world? Interesting theory ; P

It doesn’t matter that a company advertises other products or aspects of their one product more heavily. If they don’t consider X to be important they should not use X to convince people to buy their product.

I agree with KillCannon on this. The manifesto is a dead issue. Since it’s a statement of intent and since we know that things can change in the development process of an MMO, what’s the actual value in bringing up the manifesto? How does it make your arguments stronger? How does it make your point of view stronger?

Because I’m personally against vertical progression. I don’t particularly like it and I don’t think it’s necessary.

But if I bring up the manifesto in that regard to try to say this is what I like or don’t like, it simply weakens my argument.

It would be better to say that vertical progression is something that creates a problem of stat inflation which will negatively affect the game in the future. That’s assuming that Anet makes the world harder due to the higher stats.

Because if they don’t, the ascended gear trivializes content that was already easy enough and didn’t need to be easier. That’s an argument I can get behind.

But implying that Anet lied to or misled their players? That’s going nowhere and accomplishing nothing.

I dont care if there is vertical progression as long as its not too hard and/or excessively time gated though the solutions found are extremely unbalanced atm.

Lambros Augustus.6594:

I dont care if there is vertical progression as long as its not too hard and/or excessively time gated though the solutions found are extremely unbalanced atm.

The questions around the balance of vertical progression are myriad. If everyone can get them fast, then they serve no purpose, since everyone can get them fast. They don’t solve the problem they were introduced to deal with in the first place….ie the type of player who needs something to work for.

Put in something that’s easy to get that anyone can get and those players won’t be satisfied and the whole exercise is a waste.

The trick is to put it in in such a way where it’s not actually necessary to play the game (which I think Anet did okay on).

That is, they made it hardish to get, without making it impossible. Many people got ascended weapons in two weeks and there are already people walking around in ascended armor.

I’m not the kind of guy who needs stuff to work towards…but I recognized there are others who are. That’s why I believe Anet had to compromise.

The problem with a good compromise is that no one ends up happy. But I’m not sure I see a better option either.

Sadly, this part of the manifesto that rang most true:

“But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2.”

It’s the reason I just don’t really play anymore, despite the amazing world.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I think by slowed down he meant actually gating content behind checks. Stuff like you cant go raiding on FF14 before spending weeks spamming the same two dungeons over and over and over for tokens.

you mean like how you cant do fractals 50 till you grind through fractals 1-49? and grind your resistance gear?

You can experience every fractal before you even hit 10.

The thing everyone seems to imply in this thread is that Anet just made Ascebded stuff to screw over their own manifesto and annoy everyone.

As a fairly large studio with hundreds of staff, working with millions in budget, in sure they probably weighed the benefits and costs of adding Ascended gear before introducing it.

So much crap pouring out in this thread so I hope it will get locked.
There is no cunstructive feedback at all and it only brings hate, no one is making GW2 better in this thread!
I even read some say in this thread that they have stopped playing GW2 because of the break of manifesto, so what are they even doing on this forums!? I bet they are complaining on other forums too.

In my opinion; Guild Wars 2 is one awesome game and the best MMO that’s out on the market at the moment. I returned to LotrO when they released HD and i played it for a week or two but now it is crap, I don’t wanna return becouse that game is grinding your ears out, FedEx quests, Massive ammounts of levels and time to spend on getting them and I have to spend hours doing FedEx quests I don’t like.
In GW2 I have so many options to level.
I don’t have to level to 80 to play with my friends or enjoy the new content.
I don’t have to craft ascended gear to feel usefull in WvW or PvP.
And that is only a few examples.

I have been enjoying Guild Wars 2 from release and I have taken a break from it during the Fractals update but I came back for wintersday and if I take a break I will always come back to see each new update.

Manifesto or not, this game is my favorite game and Devs are doing a realy good job with the game and the forum doing the impossible, trying to please everyone.

Xae Isareth.1364:

The thing everyone seems to imply in this thread is that Anet just made Ascebded stuff to screw over their own manifesto and annoy everyone.

As a fairly large studio with hundreds of staff, working with millions in budget, in sure they probably weighed the benefits and costs of adding Ascended gear before introducing it.

FWIW, I agree that cost-effectiveness was a major factor in considering how to respond to the complaints of “nothing to do/work for.” It was a lot more cost effective to create a shallow stat grind than to fix cosmetic progression to enable an ongoing, robust cosmetic endgame.

However, I think that the initial negative reaction to Ascended prompted a shift in how Ascended was rolled out. After all, this gear type started as “available in fractals only,” and has since evolved into “put time into the game in a way that utilizes the content that was already developed.”

The manifesto was incredible. I was disappointed to see it go away.

chemiclord.3978:

Nike.2631:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

What did people do in GW1 once they reached max level?

Started playing the game.

Really. That’s how horizontal progression schemes work.

It’s how ANY MMO has worked. The “real game” doesn’t start until max level, the “endgame.”

It’s one of the ways that GW2 tried to be different that was outright rejected by the player base. Even now, players only tend to fill the lower level zones if they’re pretty much drug there by the nose (via living story or farming).

And that concept, that the game doesn’t start until max level needs to die in fire. That attitude makes any content below max level merely “level over” country as everyone speed levels to max. What’s the point of those areas or quests if they are nothing but filler. What about a rich story and the hero’s journey?

MMOs were suppose to be just like single player RPGs but with other people who can join you on your adventures and it degenerated into a rush to max level, acquiring BIS gear, min/maxing your traits based on established builds and mechanical raids where you get to be a fix gear in a massive machine whose goal every night is the defeat of the same end boss. A linear leveling path as much on rails as a modern FPS game. And if you want to do some other action during that besides your limited and fix roll, you will be hammered down or expelled. And that’s what you are advocating?

The heart of GW2 is built around coop play. No punishment for helping others. Limited times where a “leader” can force their will upon others to do his bidding. No pigeonholed rolls that your character can’t break out of. A world where you don’t visit an area once as you level up and never again because it’s beneath you but one you can return to again and again.

That’s was the goal of GW2 and they did a pretty good job pulling that off. It’s those players who can’t handle that kind of freedom, not having a spelled out linear path of progression to max level with endless raiding for BIS that can’t adapt. The success of WoW and the clones that modeled their game play off of WoW have created a legion of players who know no other way of play and that’s what sad.

What happened to the sense of adventure found in classic RPGs? It’s now window dressing. You’re an elf, a mutant, a Jedi, doesn’t matter, setting doesn’t matter, story doesn’t matter, just level to max, get best gear, raid until bored. Someone needs to come up with an equivalent picture for what happened to MMOs the way this illustrates what happened to FPS.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Xae Isareth.1364:

The thing everyone seems to imply in this thread is that Anet just made Ascebded stuff to screw over their own manifesto and annoy everyone.

As a fairly large studio with hundreds of staff, working with millions in budget, in sure they probably weighed the benefits and costs of adding Ascended gear before introducing it.

FWIW, I agree that cost-effectiveness was a major factor in considering how to respond to the complaints of “nothing to do/work for.” It was a lot more cost effective to create a shallow stat grind than to fix cosmetic progression to enable an ongoing, robust cosmetic endgame.

However, I think that the initial negative reaction to Ascended prompted a shift in how Ascended was rolled out. After all, this gear type started as “available in fractals only,” and has since evolved into “put time into the game in a way that utilizes the content that was already developed.”

I’m pretty sure that cost wasn’t the over-riding factor. I think speed of execution was far more important.

It’s not like Anet had no devs. The people that are developing these things already existed. It didn’t cost them more to remove them from project X and put them on project Y.

I think the thing here was get something in the game fast, possibly because of panic, possibly because they knew something we didn’t.

Cost may have been a factor but the biggest factor was speed.

One of the big questions that’s been asked over and over is why did Anet not go for a more creative solution, but the answer to that is simple. They went with something they know worked from other places.

I don’t believe they felt they could afford to wait to develop something more creative to see if it might work. And I think if it was “your” company (not yours specifically but the general public yours), most people would look at the time and money already spent and go for the non-gamble way to fix it.

From a business perspective it was the right thing to do.

Think of it this way. If they tried some better/more creative/more acceptable solution and it didn’t work, where would they have been then?

Dark Catalyst.1028:

What did people do in GW1 once they reached max level?

Talk in chat while playing dota.

Vayne.8563:

I’m pretty sure that cost wasn’t the over-riding factor. I think speed of execution was far more important.

It’s not like Anet had no devs. The people that are developing these things already existed. It didn’t cost them more to remove them from project X and put them on project Y.

I think the thing here was get something in the game fast, possibly because of panic, possibly because they knew something we didn’t.

Cost may have been a factor but the biggest factor was speed.

One of the big questions that’s been asked over and over is why did Anet not go for a more creative solution, but the answer to that is simple. They went with something they know worked from other places.

I don’t believe they felt they could afford to wait to develop something more creative to see if it might work. And I think if it was “your” company (not yours specifically but the general public yours), most people would look at the time and money already spent and go for the non-gamble way to fix it.

From a business perspective it was the right thing to do.

Think of it this way. If they tried some better/more creative/more acceptable solution and it didn’t work, where would they have been then?

I’ve little doubt that speed was also an issue, but remember that time needed to program is also a cost issue. Making a robust cosmetic progression might have meant adding more graphic artists.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569

Art Progression

Art progression! It’s horizontal why not do it more!!! Well we do this a lot all ready and a lot of it’s constraints comes down to costs. Every single piece of art we make is not liked by everyone and so the amount of art you have to make to give everyone a smooth art progression curve is very high. The cost of making some pieces of art is also very high (Armor especially) sense very pair of gloves = 10 pairs of gloves due to race/sex. We think art is a great horizontal progression system but not something that can stand 100% alone due to constraints of creation.

If you look at the cosmetics that have been added to the game since launch, the armor — with the exception of back items — has been mostly a few gem store sets. There seem to have been a lot more weapons added than armor.

Vayne, I understand business imperatives. I also know what I like — and I don’t like the direction GW2 has gone since launch. When Rift did not meet your expectations, you criticized TW. I’m criticizing ANet because GW2 no longer meets mine — and mine were at least in part based on their advertising. I don’t hold anything against them, but I would prefer it if they’d change their direction some — which is why I’m following the CDI.

Zeldain.5710:

Vayne.8563:

I’ll never play another subscription game again, because of the design decisions that make subscription games work are the very design decisions that make subscription game suck.

But you don’t think b2p/f2p games are just as bad? The game design decisions are based purely on monetization. Same thing, different coat of paint.

Worse IMHO because the monetisation aspect is about getting people to spend money whereas with a sub its about keeping people playing the game.

The manifesto is like yogurt.
You bought strawberry flavor but you got bananas.
It was then left out in the sun.

I agree with some posters. Those posters who hate this game with a passion, and noteven playing the game, should just move on and shouldn’t even post here.

However, if you just dont play anymore coz of lack time, post here, join the fun.
If you also have great suggestions or feedback, or would like to share constructive stuff, then pls share.
Or if you see something broken that needs fixing, post away.

But if you’re like a bad Ex-girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband/whatever who feel scorned or betrayed or whatever, you will just feel even more worst because the game you so despised about is still well loved and cared for while you lurk around waiting for its demise.

Show your non-support by being the bigger and better person: move on, and leave those who like the game be. If the those of us who love the game are just fooling ourselves, then it won’t do you bad right? So what have you got to lose (beside high blood pressure) if you leave this forum?

If you are still playing, willing to give this game a chance, post away and join CDI. If you don’t believe in any of it, and is falling out of love (and have growing anger) towards the game, pls leave. You won’t like it if you have something you like, and some people keeps spoiling the fun right?

So if you stopped playing, hate this game (I know I repeat myself), I wish you Happy Holidays and time for you guys to move on.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I’m pretty sure that cost wasn’t the over-riding factor. I think speed of execution was far more important.

It’s not like Anet had no devs. The people that are developing these things already existed. It didn’t cost them more to remove them from project X and put them on project Y.

I think the thing here was get something in the game fast, possibly because of panic, possibly because they knew something we didn’t.

Cost may have been a factor but the biggest factor was speed.

One of the big questions that’s been asked over and over is why did Anet not go for a more creative solution, but the answer to that is simple. They went with something they know worked from other places.

I don’t believe they felt they could afford to wait to develop something more creative to see if it might work. And I think if it was “your” company (not yours specifically but the general public yours), most people would look at the time and money already spent and go for the non-gamble way to fix it.

From a business perspective it was the right thing to do.

Think of it this way. If they tried some better/more creative/more acceptable solution and it didn’t work, where would they have been then?

I’ve little doubt that speed was also an issue, but remember that time needed to program is also a cost issue. Making a robust cosmetic progression might have meant adding more graphic artists.

Isaiah Cartwright.8569

Art Progression

Art progression! It’s horizontal why not do it more!!! Well we do this a lot all ready and a lot of it’s constraints comes down to costs. Every single piece of art we make is not liked by everyone and so the amount of art you have to make to give everyone a smooth art progression curve is very high. The cost of making some pieces of art is also very high (Armor especially) sense very pair of gloves = 10 pairs of gloves due to race/sex. We think art is a great horizontal progression system but not something that can stand 100% alone due to constraints of creation.

If you look at the cosmetics that have been added to the game since launch, the armor — with the exception of back items — has been mostly a few gem store sets. There seem to have been a lot more weapons added than armor.

Vayne, I understand business imperatives. I also know what I like — and I don’t like the direction GW2 has gone since launch. When Rift did not meet your expectations, you criticized TW. I’m criticizing ANet because GW2 no longer meets mine — and mine were at least in part based on their advertising. I don’t hold anything against them, but I would prefer it if they’d change their direction some — which is why I’m following the CDI.

When Rift didn’t meet my expectations, and I realized it wasn’t going to meet them, because the direction was clear, I stopped posting on the Rift forums. The company was going somewhere I had no desire to go. I’d played the game, I’d more or less gotten my money’s worth and I moved to another game, first trying AoC and then Lotro. Both had glaring issues.

What I didn’t do was hang around and say that 3 years ago this company said something and then went back on it a year ago. Even if they did go back on a core promise (and I think it’s more core in player’s minds than Anet’s considering how much coverage they gave it), they did it a year ago. A full year. It’s here and it’s not going to change.

So if you want to stay here and continue to complain about something said well before launch, that’s certainly your prerogative.

But it’s not likely to help the situation. It’s not going to change the direction of the game (I don’t believe that group is any longer a majority of the playerbase if it ever was) and it’s not going to help you, as far as I can tell.

I let go of Rift, because it wasn’t the right game for me, because of design decisions made by the company. I also acknowledged, even at the time, that I understood their design decisions.

I let go of Rift, because it wasn’t the right game for me, because of design decisions made by the company. I also acknowledged, even at the time, that I understood their design decisions.

We’d like to let it go but, some of us are passionate enough to not be afraid to tell the developers that their design decisions are self destructive. When a serious competitor emerges and GW2 is still the same old daily grind; that’s when we’ll all disappear.

Calae.1738:

I let go of Rift, because it wasn’t the right game for me, because of design decisions made by the company. I also acknowledged, even at the time, that I understood their design decisions.

We’d like to let it go but, some of us are passionate enough to not be afraid to tell the developers that their design decisions are self destructive. When a serious competitor emerges and GW2 is still the same old daily grind; that’s when we’ll all disappear.

And people were just as passionate over a year ago. Do you know the enough already law? The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets.

I understand, and the devs understand I’m sure, that a percentage of people don’t want vertical progression in this game at all. They didn’t want ascended gear. There is no way conceivable the devs could have missed it.

Those who felt strongest left the game over a year ago. They left when ascended gear was introduced. Those that remain are no longer in a vast majority (in my opinion). But you can and do make a lot of noise.

Being passionate about a game doesn’t always mean having things your way. There is a time to acknowledge that other ways are possible and perhaps even better for most people. Posting here for the last year has not stopped ascended weapons and armor from being released with higher stats. So when is enough?

When does a player say, this isn’t for me and move on. Because the core game HAS changed.

I don’t think I’m any less passionate than anyone else and I too don’t like the ascended gear. But I get why it was done and I’ve chosen to live with it. That doesn’t make me less passionate, it just shows me as a pragmatist.

But hanging around after the decision has been made and implemented for an entire year….I’m just not sure what you think it will accomplish.

Edit: You know, I’m still not sure after all this I’ve been clear about this. So…if you want to complain about the current implementation of current stuff like the ascended armor, by all means, that’s fair game. It’s current and it makes sense.

What doesn’t make sense is continually bringing up a video or article from well over a year ago (and in the case of the manifesto video several years) and continue to use it as a reason to make changes to the game now. It didn’t hold water when people made this thread a year ago, so why keep making the same thread?

Be passionate. If you are worried about stat creep by all means, talk about it….but stop making it look like a broken promise because that won’t change the game for the better at all.

It’s sad to see so many good ideas and potential being squandered. There’s a good reason why this game had as much hype as it did. Maybe we feel it can turn around at some point? Although unlikely, it’s still a possibility.

Vayne.8563:

But hanging around after the decision has been made and implemented for an entire year….I’m just not sure what you think it will accomplish.

They thrive on the attention that posting about this stuff creates – whether that attention is positive or negative. The issue will only go away when no one – not a single person – feeds into the rage by responding to these threads.

When it’s no longer fun to stir up the “fanboys” by pushing their buttons, it’s time to move on to somewhere you can get a reaction, like the SWTOR forums or something.

tolunart.2095:

Vayne.8563:

But hanging around after the decision has been made and implemented for an entire year….I’m just not sure what you think it will accomplish.

They thrive on the attention that posting about this stuff creates – whether that attention is positive or negative. The issue will only go away when no one – not a single person – feeds into the rage by responding to these threads.

When it’s no longer fun to stir up the “fanboys” by pushing their buttons, it’s time to move on to somewhere you can get a reaction, like the SWTOR forums or something.

I’ve become less of a “fan boy” as time goes on…but I remain a pragmatist. I don’t even post much here anymore…because it doesn’t seem to make a difference. I spend far more time on reddit than here, for a number of reasons.

But I still think if people really care and they really want change, they’ll abandon the manifesto argument and go to something relevant to the game today.

Vayne.8563:

I’ve become less of a “fan boy” as time goes on…but I remain a pragmatist. I don’t even post much here anymore…because it doesn’t seem to make a difference. I spend far more time on reddit than here, for a number of reasons.

But I still think if people really care and they really want change, they’ll abandon the manifesto argument and go to something relevant to the game today.

It’s more about how others view you, “Vayne-baiting” has been a popular sport on the forums this last year or so. Just the other day I was thinking how I haven’t seen you posting as much any more, then someone mentions “manifesto” and boom! Two pages of various posters arguing with you and nothing that hasn’t been said a hundred times before.

I think anyone truly interested in making the game better has moved on to other subjects. There is a better chance to be heard by posting in the CDI threads, for example, than beating on the bloody spot where the manifesto horse used to be.

tolunart.2095:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve become less of a “fan boy” as time goes on…but I remain a pragmatist. I don’t even post much here anymore…because it doesn’t seem to make a difference. I spend far more time on reddit than here, for a number of reasons.

But I still think if people really care and they really want change, they’ll abandon the manifesto argument and go to something relevant to the game today.

It’s more about how others view you, “Vayne-baiting” has been a popular sport on the forums this last year or so. Just the other day I was thinking how I haven’t seen you posting as much any more, then someone mentions “manifesto” and boom! Two pages of various posters arguing with you and nothing that hasn’t been said a hundred times before.

I think anyone truly interested in making the game better has moved on to other subjects. There is a better chance to be heard by posting in the CDI threads, for example, than beating on the bloody spot where the manifesto horse used to be.

Pure chance. I happened to log on to check my mail. I’m back off of here once this conversation I’m having via mail is over. lol

Vayne.8563:

I’ve become less of a “fan boy” as time goes on…but I remain a pragmatist. I don’t even post much here anymore…because it doesn’t seem to make a difference. I spend far more time on reddit than here, for a number of reasons.

But I still think if people really care and they really want change, they’ll abandon the manifesto argument and go to something relevant to the game today.

Honestly, while I still think the pre-launch hype was advertising, I’ve accepted that the game has changed enough that it no longer really appeals to me. I hope that this changes, at which point I might return. Thus, I still post thoughts I think are relevant. I’ve been an analyst for a long time, and so I get analytical. For example, I post my negative thoughts about vertical progression in the hopes that there won’t be an additional tier at some point in the future. I’ve posted in most of the CDI posts, but not in the latest one (yet).

I don’t think you’ve said this, but for those other posters who just want critics to dry up and blow away, I don’t think you realize that critics often care about the game as much as or more than the fans do, and complain in hopes that things they don’t like will change. Sure, there are trolls on the internet, but not all the people who complain are trolls.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I’ve become less of a “fan boy” as time goes on…but I remain a pragmatist. I don’t even post much here anymore…because it doesn’t seem to make a difference. I spend far more time on reddit than here, for a number of reasons.

But I still think if people really care and they really want change, they’ll abandon the manifesto argument and go to something relevant to the game today.

Honestly, while I still think the pre-launch hype was advertising, I’ve accepted that the game has changed enough that it no longer really appeals to me. I hope that this changes, at which point I might return. Thus, I still post thoughts I think are relevant. I’ve been an analyst for a long time, and so I get analytical. For example, I post my negative thoughts about vertical progression in the hopes that there won’t be an additional tier at some point in the future. I’ve posted in most of the CDI posts, but not in the latest one (yet).

I don’t think you’ve said this, but for those other posters who just want critics to dry up and blow away, I don’t think you realize that critics often care about the game as much as or more than the fans do, and complain in hopes that things they don’t like will change. Sure, there are trolls on the internet, but not all the people who complain are trolls.

I don’t want the critics to go away. I want the critics to post meaningful, helpful, thoughtful criticism. I don’t think the manifesto threads fall into the category and probably never will.

Either the game has changed from the manifesto or it hasn’t. Either way it’s changed. Clearly their stated intent changed if it has changed. So arguing that the manifesto exists and its changed is pretty much a matter of record, for those who believe it changed.

So we have a several year old video. And since then the game has changed. The question isn’t whether it’s changed and that’s a problem. The question is how has it change, what would be better than the current system. How can the current system be modified to be better.

More ways to get ascended gear, for example, would make it better for people who don’t want to craft.

The manifesto argument is a distracting side show that will change nothing. I’m happy to hear people complain about ascended gear all day if they don’t like it. At least that has a chance of being constructive. Manifesto posts…not so much.

Vayne.8563:

More ways to get ascended gear, for example, would make it better for people who don’t want to craft.

I agree.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto argument is a distracting side show that will change nothing. I’m happy to hear people complain about ascended gear all day if they don’t like it. At least that has a chance of being constructive. Manifesto posts…not so much.

I would agree if Anet was not still officially presenting/supporting the Manifesto. I don’t think the arguments about it will go away as long as it is a current matter. If Anet is still presenting it on the official site its not some ancient video that we shouldn’t bother with any longer.

I don’t think ArenaNet is ever going to live down the Manifesto and what happened in November 2012. Right or wrong, agree or not, I think this is going to haunt them for the life of GW2.

That said, making posts about it isn’t going to change anything. What’s happened has happened. Time to move on. Perhaps to a different game.

I’ve kind of accepted that GW2 is not, and never will be, what I thought it was going to be based on the Manifesto, blogs, hype, and everything else. I think something fundamental changed at ArenaNet sometime between the Manifesto in 2010 and launch in 2012. They are not who they were, and no amount of pointing out these changes is going to bring that back.

If you like the game, great – if not, you have your fond memories of Guild Wars and how, for all its faults, it’s a far more captivating game. Log in there once in a while and mess around.

Meantime, find another game to play. Manifesto discussions are pointless. It’s over and done with. It’s not going to change.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

More ways to get ascended gear, for example, would make it better for people who don’t want to craft.

I agree.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto argument is a distracting side show that will change nothing. I’m happy to hear people complain about ascended gear all day if they don’t like it. At least that has a chance of being constructive. Manifesto posts…not so much.

I would agree if Anet was not still officially presenting/supporting the Manifesto. I don’t think the arguments about it will go away as long as it is a current matter. If Anet is still presenting it on the official site its not some ancient video that we shouldn’t bother with any longer.

Anet has a 3 year old video on their site that doesn’t say anything at all about gear grind or ascended gear or vertical progression. Not one word. It doesn’t matter if you personally interpreted that way.

There’s enough information out now for people to make a decision on buying this game based on what’s on the website.

As for no required grind, there are people on this forums besides me who maintain there is no required grind in this game.

Keeping an old video on a website along with dozens and dozens of other videos is not supporting an old video. It’s just not removing something which some people still think didn’t stray far from the mark.

Your opinion that vertical progression was somehow talked about in the manifesto isn’t backed up by the manifesto video itself.

Vayne.8563:

Anet has a 3 year old video on their site that doesn’t say anything at all about gear grind or ascended gear or vertical progression. Not one word. It doesn’t matter if you personally interpreted that way.

I didn’t say that it did.

Vayne.8563:

As for no required grind, there are people on this forums besides me who maintain there is no required grind in this game.

I did not say that there was.

Vayne.8563:

Keeping an old video on a website along with dozens and dozens of other videos is not supporting an old video. It’s just not removing something which some people still think didn’t stray far from the mark.

Continuing to display an advertisement is supporting that advertisement. It is completely irrelevant that there are other videos present as well.

Vayne.8563:

Your opinion that vertical progression was somehow talked about in the manifesto isn’t backed up by the manifesto video itself.

What are you talking about ? I expressed no such opinion.

All I said there was that so long as ANet chooses to support and display the manifesto it is a valid topic of discussion.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Anet has a 3 year old video on their site that doesn’t say anything at all about gear grind or ascended gear or vertical progression. Not one word. It doesn’t matter if you personally interpreted that way.

I didn’t say that it did.

Vayne.8563:

As for no required grind, there are people on this forums besides me who maintain there is no required grind in this game.

I did not say that there was.

Vayne.8563:

Keeping an old video on a website along with dozens and dozens of other videos is not supporting an old video. It’s just not removing something which some people still think didn’t stray far from the mark.

Continuing to display an advertisement is supporting that advertisement. It is completely irrelevant that there are other videos present as well.

Vayne.8563:

Your opinion that vertical progression was somehow talked about in the manifesto isn’t backed up by the manifesto video itself.

What are you talking about ? I expressed no such opinion.

All I said there was that so long as ANet chooses to support and display the manifesto it is a valid topic of discussion.

And as long as people continue to bring the manifesto into an argument about ascended gear, it will remain completely irrelevant, which is what has been happening. People are muddying the issue by claiming the manifesto video talks about vertical progression, when it doesn’t. They’re claiming it talks about gear grind, which it doesn’t.

So what has changed that people are talking about.

If something in the game isn’t to someone’s liking, the way to change it isn’t to bring up a very old video, whether it’s on the site or not. Let me put this another way completely.

I have the Guild Wars 2 strategy guide in print. In the guide it talks about planting dye seeds to get your dye. That’s not in the game anymore. It’s a document that’s official…I still have it, but how is that relevant to the discussion today?

Just about every MMO has things on their website that are eventually untrue. Almost none of those games delete old videos, even if they have an error or two, because they still have value. Saying that Anet should delete every single thing they ever said from every article they’ve ever posted that no longer holds true is bordering on ludicrous.

They wrote an article on the blog which you can still get which said that WvW matchups would be chosen one way, then they went to a different way and not they’re moving back to the original way.

Half the stuff about the SPvP blogs as the game develops is probably outdated. Maybe they should hire special people to edit old stuff? I’ve yet to see an MMO do that.

Videos that are many years old are many years old. There is value in having them on the site. Talking about them now after they’re three years old is pointless. Unless you think someone has said something in this conversation that hasn’t been said in the last two dozen threads about it.

Exactly what does bringing it up yet again accomplish? What has it ever accomplished? How is it productive? If you’re truly a fan of the game why would you want to waste your time rehashing something unproductive?

Vayne.8563:

And as long as people continue to bring the manifesto into an argument about ascended gear

You have it backwards. This is a discussion thread about the manifesto. Did you not read the title and OP ?

I honestly thought i was buying gw2 a sequal to gw1, everyday for years you would see in trade talk gw2 and peeps were excited, i was excited.

We talked over relms and what race we would play and the profession in guild and alliance chat, everyone waited and waited on gw2 we knew it would be amazing, the best game to ever be made, all new graphics and “everything we loved about gw1” and more, whoop whoop.

The reality is somewhat different, we got gw1 lore.

Gw2 is a good game yes, but its no sequal to gw1, if they made a new gw1 expansion with improved graphics added dodge and jump, id go back gw1 and delete gw2.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

And as long as people continue to bring the manifesto into an argument about ascended gear

You have it backwards. This is a discussion thread about the manifesto. Did you not read the title and OP ?

Sure I read it. I also read the previous threads and the answers to the OP’s question there. I respond to threads, not just individual posts very often. I’m more of a forest person than a tree person. I know what people are saying and I’m talking about what people are talking about.

In the manifesto lied comments, there are usually two maybe three lines brought up. I comment generally on those lines.

I don’t comment on the “everything you loved about Guild Wars 1 line”, because it’s marketing pure and simple. Anet can’t know what anyone loved about Guild Wars 1, much less everyone.

But the other lines I do talk about. This is about the manifesto. There have been multiple threads about it. The first few posts in this thread talk about the other thread.

I’m simply continuing a conversation started there for the benefit of the OP who asked about it.

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

Well you’ll have a slew of new games to be disappointed in in 2014. Good luck with that.

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Even at WoW’s height, when it had grown to 12.4 millions subs, there were people who didn’t like it or even hated it. But it didn’t mean the game didn’t do well, that’s my point.

Whether WoW is shedding players or not isn’t really relevant here. What is relevant is people who really don’t know, don’t like this game, and predict the downfall of the game because of it.

Unless they have a crystal ball, or have knowledge we don’t have, predicting that the game will fail when game X, Y or Z comes out is not constructive, servers no positive purpose and frankly doesn’t help anyone.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Even at WoW’s height, when it had grown to 12.4 millions subs, there were people who didn’t like it or even hated it. But it didn’t mean the game didn’t do well, that’s my point.

Whether WoW is shedding players or not isn’t really relevant here. What is relevant is people who really don’t know, don’t like this game, and predict the downfall of the game because of it.

Unless they have a crystal ball, or have knowledge we don’t have, predicting that the game will fail when game X, Y or Z comes out is not constructive, servers no positive purpose and frankly doesn’t help anyone.

My point is, vaguely, that devs need to pick a direction…a flow….an overarching philosophy and stick with it. As you said earlier in the thread, the game was designed around DE’s; exploration; personal story; and active, skill based combat.

They don’t need the CDI threads. They just need to watch their own marketing material and do what it says. Games start shedding players when they can no longer follow a binding design philosophy.

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Such as? What’s wrong with Timeless Isle? It allows new players or players who’ve come back after a significant break from the game (like me) to experience the current raid content.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Such as? What’s wrong with Timeless Isle? It allows new players or players who’ve come back after a significant break from the game (like me) to experience the current raid content.

Sigh. When they decided to start being “nice” to all the casual weekenders, and instituted the lfr system, and the lfg system, and welfare epics is when the game started shedding players.

There’s a timeline some poster made up over on their forums. It’s pretty telling that when WoW started being casual friendly was when their sub numbers tanked.

The moral here is that instead of chasing players, just design a quality game and stay true to your design philosophy….whatever that may be.

killcannon.2576:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Such as? What’s wrong with Timeless Isle? It allows new players or players who’ve come back after a significant break from the game (like me) to experience the current raid content.

Sigh. When they decided to start being “nice” to all the casual weekenders, and instituted the lfr system, and the lfg system, and welfare epics is when the game started shedding players.

There’s a timeline some poster made up over on their forums. It’s pretty telling that when WoW started being casual friendly was when their sub numbers tanked.

The moral here is that instead of chasing players, just design a quality game and stay true to your design philosophy….whatever that may be.

WoW started being “casual friendly” during Lich King and subs were at an all time high.

And? They didn’t remove anything. They added tools and ways for more people to see the content. You know, those things called raids that the vast majority of people never even set foot in during Burning Crusade. Raids, which they spend significant resources in order to create.

By the way, WoW, a 9 year old game, has more active players than this one does.

killcannon.2576:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Such as? What’s wrong with Timeless Isle? It allows new players or players who’ve come back after a significant break from the game (like me) to experience the current raid content.

Sigh. When they decided to start being “nice” to all the casual weekenders, and instituted the lfr system, and the lfg system, and welfare epics is when the game started shedding players.

There’s a timeline some poster made up over on their forums. It’s pretty telling that when WoW started being casual friendly was when their sub numbers tanked.

The moral here is that instead of chasing players, just design a quality game and stay true to your design philosophy….whatever that may be.

Or simply say casual players be kitten . But casual players need a game of their own and I think GW2 does a darn good job filling that role.

It’s like a gym. Some are full of hulked out protein shake drinking muscleheads who love to grunt and drop the weights from above their head as if there’s a noise making competition and there are gyms for everyone else.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Such as? What’s wrong with Timeless Isle? It allows new players or players who’ve come back after a significant break from the game (like me) to experience the current raid content.

Sigh. When they decided to start being “nice” to all the casual weekenders, and instituted the lfr system, and the lfg system, and welfare epics is when the game started shedding players.

There’s a timeline some poster made up over on their forums. It’s pretty telling that when WoW started being casual friendly was when their sub numbers tanked.

The moral here is that instead of chasing players, just design a quality game and stay true to your design philosophy….whatever that may be.

WoW started being “casual friendly” during Lich King and subs were at an all time high.

And? They didn’t remove anything. They added tools and ways for more people to see the content. You know, those things called raids that the vast majority of people never even set foot in during Burning Crusade. Raids, which they spend significant resources in order to create.

By the way, WoW, a 9 year old game, has more active players than this one does.

lol, all you have to do is look at sub numbers historically. The more casual friendly? the worse the numbers. And they continue to go down that road, it boggles.

Lich was BIG, and it was good content (most of it) and they were riding the wave of TBC. They didn’t add much during Lich that was overtly casual, although they did dumb down the instances and started homogenizing the classes. As the whine grew, and the devs added more and more casual friendly content, they lost their core player base.

I don’t have to defend the statement. It speaks for itself. The more casual friendly WoW has become, the fewer players it has. Of course the casuals would blame it on something else.

Behellagh.1468:

killcannon.2576:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Such as? What’s wrong with Timeless Isle? It allows new players or players who’ve come back after a significant break from the game (like me) to experience the current raid content.

Sigh. When they decided to start being “nice” to all the casual weekenders, and instituted the lfr system, and the lfg system, and welfare epics is when the game started shedding players.

There’s a timeline some poster made up over on their forums. It’s pretty telling that when WoW started being casual friendly was when their sub numbers tanked.

The moral here is that instead of chasing players, just design a quality game and stay true to your design philosophy….whatever that may be.

Or simply say casual players be kitten . But casual players need a game of their own and I think GW2 does a darn good job filling that role.

It’s like a gym. Some are full of hulked out protein shake drinking muscleheads who love to grunt and drop the weights from above their head as if there’s a noise making competition and there are gyms for everyone else.

I totally agree with you.

killcannon.2576:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Dante.1508:

azizul.8469:

manifestos are the things of the past….

Sadly so is Guildwars 2 it seems, especially with 2014 just around the corner..

I’m not saying this in malice, i feel their manifesto was the right direction and listening to the “end gamers” back then was misdirection.

One of which has had repercussions to this day..

See this is particularly the kind of comment this forum doesn’t need. You don’t know how healthy the game is. You don’t know how many people are actually enjoying it. But you say that the game will be a thing of the past, with no evidence whatsoever.

This is not a post that’s helpful or constructive. It is, in fact, just a future prediction based on the fact that some people don’t like this game. Well some people don’t like WoW, but they seem to be doing okay.

It’s so easy to make comments like this, but they’re usually based on people assuming that more people share their opinion than is actually the case.

WoW is shedding players pretty quickly. What is sad though? Their fix is to copy game mechanics from GW2 which the players don’t want in that game. Timeless Isle is a bit of a joke. And they plan to produce their next expansion around those ideas. smh.

Starting to think there is just one big water cooler that all mmo devs drink out of.

Such as? What’s wrong with Timeless Isle? It allows new players or players who’ve come back after a significant break from the game (like me) to experience the current raid content.

Sigh. When they decided to start being “nice” to all the casual weekenders, and instituted the lfr system, and the lfg system, and welfare epics is when the game started shedding players.

There’s a timeline some poster made up over on their forums. It’s pretty telling that when WoW started being casual friendly was when their sub numbers tanked.

The moral here is that instead of chasing players, just design a quality game and stay true to your design philosophy….whatever that may be.

WoW started being “casual friendly” during Lich King and subs were at an all time high.

And? They didn’t remove anything. They added tools and ways for more people to see the content. You know, those things called raids that the vast majority of people never even set foot in during Burning Crusade. Raids, which they spend significant resources in order to create.

By the way, WoW, a 9 year old game, has more active players than this one does.

lol, all you have to do is look at sub numbers historically. The more casual friendly? the worse the numbers. And they continue to go down that road, it boggles.

Lich was BIG, and it was good content (most of it) and they were riding the wave of TBC. They didn’t add much during Lich that was overtly casual, although they did dumb down the instances and started homogenizing the classes. As the whine grew, and the devs added more and more casual friendly content, they lost their core player base.

I don’t have to defend the statement. It speaks for itself. The more casual friendly WoW has become, the fewer players it has. Of course the casuals would blame it on something else.

Maybe they’re leaving because it’s a 9 year old game that they’ve spent a lot of time on, and now that there are other options they want to try them out? It’s pretty simplistic to say sub numbers are dropping because it got “more casual” where there could be a variety of reasons as to why subs are dropping.

Also, much of what made vanilla and burning crusade “hardcore” was just pointless difficulty and time gating. There’s the challenge that comes with defeating a well designed encounter with functioning classes, and then there’s the “challenge” that comes with defeating an encounter because you stacked the right classes (and pigeon holed the weaker ones into a singular role) and spent a couple of weeks grinding mats so you could craft the resist armor needed to trivialize said encounter.