Guild Wars 2

Ever get the feeling that you love the game, but there’s something wrong with it that you just can’t seem to motivate yourself any longer? Well I have been feeling this for days. I have always been a interdependent MMO player, which means that even if all my friends quit playing a game I can continue playing so long as I enjoy it. I don’t need my RL friends playing the same game with me all the time. I can make friends in game well enough.

But this time, something different happened. I found myself loving the game as much as day 1, but the motivation for me to log on and play it? It’s gone. I have thought about it long and hard.

Maybe it’s the fact that Orrs maps are contested way too often you can’t even teleport around the map. Maybe its the economy which has been screwed over by the gold farmers. Or maybe it’s the fact that sPvP doesn’t seem to have a point. (I mean I’m fine with no gear progression in PVP. I get that we’re supposed to be doing it for fun and the armor skins. But those skins just don’t stand out enough to make you wanna get it, and playing with a full team of Thief, Mesmer and Warrior? Well…)

But after much consideration, I have finally pinpoint the problem, and this may be the same reason why so many players no longer play the game – The well disguised grind, and the punishments.

Dungeons Armor -

Whether dungeons are fun, this is entirely subjective, so I’m not going to cry about how dungeons are boring or too hard, because I personally think they’re not. The problem isn’t with the dungeons themselves. The problem is with the reward. To get a set of dungeon armor you need to farm the same dungeon 50 times in a row.

Which is fine.
Anet wants you to farm, and farming is the key to every MMO. But then if you do the same dungeons over and over again, the DR kicks in and you get no reward. This sort of leaves me confused. So Anet wants us the farm, but then Anet punishes us for farming?

I understand to goal to this system is to prevent people from maxing out the game too soon. But if you really think about it, that is just Anet’s excuse for not having enough faith in their own endgame content. They want you to grind different dungeons and play different part of the game – but they don’t reward you for that, instead punishment seem to be the answer for everything.

If I spent a week trying to get a particular dungeon set, do I really wanna spent another week farming another dungeon trying to get a different set which isn’t all that different besides the appearance? Again, not asking gear progression OR better appearance.

I want the grind to be a little more realistic for casual player, that’s all. Also, there are many different armor sets in the game. Most of them require 46k karma a piece. That’s a lot of farming. Sure, some of you are able to get around 30k per day. Some of you have the time; but others don’t.

So they farm enough karma for 1 set, and then stopped farming because:

A: there’s not really a point to farm again since all exotic share the same amount of stats. Sure there are different stats are different exotic armor, but really, imo, the grind atm outweigh the reward. A different stat simply does not warrant you to sit in front of your computer spamming aoes at orr or wvw " all day ".

B: Takes too long doing essentially the same thing over and over again.

if I can play 2 or 3 hours a day and get a piece of the armor set i want, I’ll be more inclined to play the game. Is that too easy? Well considering you have 5 different char slot, doing it for 5 character still gets you some nice playtime. And then there are different armor sets with appearance – if getting them are easy, I might as well get them all.

That sure beats grinding for an entire day for one piece of armor – and then come back to grind another day for another piece. It’s no surprising why so many people are burnt out from playing.

This is not all, though.

Legendary weapon:

They are the best weapon in game in terms of appearance and stats, and there are many hardcore player who have already gotten it. I’m happy for them. For an honest player like myself who dislike gambling, getting the precursor is hard enough. Farming for all the other mats? hmm. All right fine. I’ll do it.

Farming them with the DR in place? Farming different types of mob for different lvl 80 fine mats with exceptionally low drop rates? Farming gold to buy the precursor? Farming karma? Crossing my finger for magic clovers every time I chuck the effort of a 5 hours grind into the forge? No thanks. I’ve got my hands full farming karma. I’m really not going to waste anymore time farming so much crap for a weapon that does only a lil better than most exotic.

Well, if getting legendary is out of the question for me, what else is there? Wvw and Spvp. But then you don’t get any sort of meaningful reward from doing them – it’s all for the kitten. (Sure, you do get gem from spvp torny, but what’s there to buy with gem? Do I need the boosters? or the appearals? Let’s say i’ve grinded enough spvp torny to get the appearals, whats next?)

Some have told me “you’re a grownup, you don’t need reward for doing everything you do.” Sorry to burst your bubble, but if that were true we wouldn’t have achievements.

The whole point of achievements is to trick you into thinking that doing even the mundane task in a game isn’t the waste of time that it is. Rewarding is important.
How many of people go out of their way to fight champion mob everytime they see one? I do it once in a blue moon when I feel like it. Why? because I know I’m going to get some white drop and I could be getting fine mats from killing normal mobs.

That is the main problem of Guild Wars too. Every punishment is too harsh – and there aren’t enough meaningful reward to keep you motivated through the grind.
In essence, the game is set up in the format of a traditional MMO, which requires you to grind for stuff. And this is fine. But then it doesn’t have the same reward as a traditional MMO. And I sure as hell didn’t sign up for a traditional MMO.

How to Fix:

Well I’m not going to make any suggestions. I’m studying game design atm and i know game devs are the most creative people who must be smart enough to work around the problems that may arise. And to accomplished ones like the people who are working for Anet atm, I’m sure fixing this would be child’s play.

Provided if they view this as an actual problem though.

A lot of MMO failed because they weren’t able to sit back and reflect their own shortcomings. Swtor is one of them. Population problems have been constant in swtor but they have only merged the server after months and months of whining because Bioware didn’t want to admit there are problems with their game and people are leaving in flocks.

I don’t see this happen with Anet, but still I’m hoping that the game can become the revolutionary MMO that kept player playing not by the grind, but by how fun it is. I believe in the game. I love the game.The game has enough endgame content, and there are no problems a few twink and update wouldn’t solve. Got every armors in game? New armors with new look is on the horizon! Finish all the dungeons? No worries, new dungeons coming right up! Bored of them all? Wvw, Spvp are there for you to enjoy til the new stuff come out.

These are all legit contents.

But it won’t matter how much content the game has if getting there puts people off. Please address this issue or at least have a look at it. That’s all I’m asking. Thanks!

This is one of the reasons i quit this game. I don’t mind grinding but anet takes it too a whole new level and not in a good way. They also designed the game so if you don’t have alot of time you are almost forced to buy gems to convert to gold. I haven’t played in almost 3 weeks and stuff needed for Legendary weapons was already hundreds of gold. So 3 ways to earn gold, buys gems, play the trading post or grind the f out of dungeons. Boring.

If there is grind, then the game is a grindfest.
If there is no grind, then there is no progression.
You say the game punishes you too hard, I can find 100k people here who think the exact opposite.
GW2 isn’t a panacea really. You like it, you play it. You don’t like it, you don’t play it.
Just like every other game out there.

I for one never needed to “grind”.
I do things I like to get money; WvW and dungeons, mostly.
The problem is when you want something faster than you should obtain it, and therefore start repeating things fast – and come to the realization that GW2 does not reward that behavior.

The game rewards doing different things without having gold earning in your head all the time.
You do funny things, you slowly build money.
I got 3g by just WvWing today.
Yesterday, I got 4g by just doing cursed shore events. Doing, not farming.

Gold advice: Try to play the game for fun and stop your mind from getting stuck like a broken record on mind trips like gold and whatnot.
Have fun, slowly build what you need or want.
Don’t get obsessed over things you want or need.
Have fun.

Red Falcon.8257:

If there is grind, then the game is a grindfest.
If there is no grind, then there is no progression.
You say the game punishes you too hard, I can find 100k people here who think the exact opposite.
GW2 isn’t a panacea really. You like it, you play it. You don’t like it, you don’t play it.
Just like every other game out there.

I for one never needed to “grind”.
I do things I like to get money; WvW and dungeons, mostly.
The problem is when you want something faster than you should obtain it, and therefore start repeating things fast – and come to the realization that GW2 does not reward that behavior.

The game rewards doing different things without having gold earning in your head all the time.
You do funny things, you slowly build money.
I got 3g by just WvWing today.
Yesterday, I got 4g by just doing cursed shore events. Doing, not farming.

/facepalm.

I’m not even talking about gold.

If you actually read half my posts you realize it has very little to do with gold.
(Honestly people who read are so hard to come by nowadays)

Grinding is fine; I’m not saying GW2 is a pure grindfest or anything (though it is, as is most games). I’m saying that there’s a flaw in Anet’s design because they’re sending a mix message. Dungeons armors. You get 60 tokens per run if you do it the first time. Then the reward start diminishing.

This is the dev saying we don’t want you to farm.

But then you need 360 token just for a piece of armor.

This is the dev saying we want you to farm.

Legendary weapons. You need 250 of each lvl 80 fine mats. You need 800k plus karma. You need 200 spare skill points. Gold is actually the easiest thing to get on the material lists.

This is Anet saying, once again, we want you to farm.

But then the drop rate of the lvl 80 fine mats? The DR in zone farming? The chance of getting a magic clover? Trying to get the precursor to make the legendary weapons?

This is Anet saying we don’t want you to farm.

So what Anet is saying is, We want you to farm “slowly”. They do this to extend their playtime per player, unnecessarily making the game longer it actually is, which they didn’t need to do because the game is packed with content.

Honestly please actually read the thing before you reply.
Also, if you think getting 3g is something you should be happy about, go on to trading post and have a look at the cost of every precursor for legendary. Let’s say, if you make 10g a day (and this is very optimistic, nearly impossible for casual players) you’d still need 30 days just to get the precursor.

Also, please don’t exaggerate. If you can actually find 100k people who disagree with me i’ll stop posting for eternity. Looking at your sig, you seem to think everyone who have anything negative to say about GW2 is complaining about the difficulty. Again you are wrong. GW2 content is fine. GW2 grinding is not. It’s not hard to farm; some like myself even find farming fun. But the dev punishes you for farming, forcing you to farm slowly so you’d have to do things you don’t want to do.

Red Falcon.8257:

Gold advice: Try to play the game for fun and stop your mind from getting stuck like a broken record on mind trips like gold and whatnot.
Have fun, slowly build what you need or want.
Don’t get obsessed over things you want or need. 
Have fun.

You probably don’t understand the meaning of the word “need”.
If I ‘need’ something, I must have it or else I can’t do anything without it.
In gw2 there are little things that you need; there are only things you REALLY want, and things you SORT OF want.

Both of which base on one important concept – is it realistic to get it or not, and if getting it is worth it or not.

I sort of want the dungeon set, so I went and spend a week farming it. I got it, but I’m pretty burnt out from “slow-farming”, i’d rather not spend another week getting another set again. If I could run the same dungeon over and over not having to worry about DR, or if I can have the DR but the price on those dungeon pieces lowered, both of which would’ve addressed the problem.

I really want the legendary, but what do I have to sacrifice to get it? My Saturday night out with friends? My school? Once again, I’m repeating myself : grinding is fine. The way the game asks us to grind is not.

Drop-rate for lvl 80 fine mat could’ve been higher. DR could have been less severe. But they are the way it is because Anet wants to extend the playtime, and if you look at the rate the game is declining, you’d see its actually doing them more harm than good.

Once again read before you actually reply, even if the post is long. Thanks!

Very well said. It’s good to hear the perceptions from a casual player.
To let you know, the game punishes many hardcore/active players as well. If you read around, you can see feedbacks by them too. I gave mine too. The game punishes instead of rewarding them because of the structure and weak end-game too.

The game is still new. It can be improve as they have potential.
I’m anticipating 15th November to see what improvements they’ve made.

As a hardcore player i second this, even for me it gets mind numbing, dont get me wrong I like to farm, nonetheless i get punished for doing it.

doesnt make sense honestly.

if I as hardcore gamer get frustrated I feel bad for casual gamers =/.

It’s the depend on what you mean by “grind”

If grind = end game, nothing better to do, then tell me something i don’t know. It’s the plague of all MMO, even the mighty World of Warcraft. But what can you do? It’s faster to enjoy than time to make.

If grind = to level up progress, no.

PVP? isn’t WOW and WAR have the same problem?

Naoko.7096:

Very well said. It’s good to hear the perceptions from a casual player.
To let you know, the game punishes many hardcore/active players as well. If you read around, you can see feedbacks by them too. I gave mine too. The game punishes instead of rewarding them because of the structure and weak end-game too.

The game is still new. It can be improve as they have potential.
I’m anticipating 15th November to see what improvements they’ve made.

Me too.

And I honestly can see how hardcore players are punished as well. Even if you do spend the time farming, you’d still need the magic clover to make legendary weapons.
honestly the game’s great, but this part of the design is empirically horrible.

If I know at the end of a 3 month grind i can get a legendary weapon without needing luck, i’d probably try to grind it out.

The problem is, I don’t.
So I don’t waste my time.

Not to sound mean but none of this so called “grind” is necessary. Its all if you want to do it or not. What are you complaining about? I dont want legendary weapons so i dont grind those…. I dont have too, you can get end level equipment easily.

I ran crucible dungeons for a couple days, got the 2 set pieces I wanted. Never felt like a “grind.” you just come off like you want things easily. and im a casual player with a full time job

CrassBippy.4619:

Not to sound mean but none of this so called “grind” is necessary. Its all if you want to do it or not. What are you complaining about? I dont want legendary weapons so i dont grind those…. I dont have too, you can get end level equipment easily.

I ran crucible dungeons for a couple days, got the 2 set pieces I wanted. Never felt like a “grind.” you just come off like you want things easily. and im a casual player with a full time job

Once again, you clearly have not read a single word in my post.
You merely looked at the title and thought i’m complaining about the grind.

Sorry, but I’m not.

CrassBippy.4619:

I ran crucible dungeons for a couple days, got the 2 set pieces I wanted. Never felt like a “grind.” you just come off like you want things easily. and im a casual player with a full time job

Most player assume that when people say ‘grind’, it automatically means “spending a ‘ong ’ and ’boring’ time doing the same thing over and over again to get something.”

What I actually meant is, " Spending a ‘long’ doing the same thing over and over again to get something."

I’m ok with grinding, really. I did the same thing as well. Ran CM for a week (if you can still get the piece you want in only a few days with the token DR…..good job, sir. ) and got the set of armor I wanted. On ONE character.

Now if there is no DR and i can just do the same dungeon over and over again, I can get a set in less than 2. Then I’ll be more inclined to get every available set, for every character. Anet sees something wrong with that; but I’m asking the question, what’s wrong with ‘doing the same dungeon over and over again?’ If I find it fun and the reward worthwhile, I should be able to do that, shouldn’t I? But i cant.

So after I get my first set, I find myself cower at the prospect of getting another set for another character.

And there lies the problem. Not the grind – but the SLOW grind.
If I change the word ‘grind’ to “farm”, will it make it easier for you to understand?

Denial Of Service.5732:

As a hardcore player i second this, even for me it gets mind numbing, dont get me wrong I like to farm, nonetheless i get punished for doing it.

doesnt make sense honestly.

if I as hardcore gamer get frustrated I feel bad for casual gamers =/.

Exactly the point.

They want you to farm.

But they put restriction in place to prevent you from farming.

o….kay…..

nothing wrong with that design.

/sarcasm.

I could tell you what their message is. It’s have fun doing different things in our game.

if you take the same dungeon path in less than 6 hours (I think) you get less rewards, that means that you can only do a few runs in each dungeon. the idea behind this, I think, is that Anet expects you to go do some pvp or WvW in the mean time, or go Orr and do some events.

I don’t think legendaries count as grinding, that is something that only a few can get. it takes a load of time. (and GW2 grinding is really s*tt*y compared to Lineage 2)

I am a casual player and I don’t have much time to play. I log in when I have the time to farm a dungeon or do some pvp. then I log out. So only hardcore players or people with some free time in their hands can run into this dungeon punishment. (I also like that anyone can join a party for a dungeon, instead of needing specific classes for a party).

I just recently hit 80 so I’m not one to talk, but I get the idea that GW2 is all about events and pvp. because there is no subscription fee anyone can pop up any time there is something interesting going on. like the Halloween Event or doing WvW with your guild.

showatt.9413:

But it won’t matter how much content the game has if getting there puts people off. Please address this issue or at least have a look at it. That’s all I’m asking. Thanks!

What do you mean it won’t matter? matter to whom?
Are you concerned with GW2 future? Are you scared of it becoming a wasteland?

I believe they don’t encourage grinding because there is not much money in that.(since there is no monthly fee) instead they get money from gems. the way they attract attention to this is by the use of Monthly Events and PvP tournaments. (I get the impression that GW2 is designed all around PVP).

A friend that played a lot of GW1 told me it was the main aspect of GW1. think about it as you would LoL or HoN (I know they are not the same type of game, but I get the impression that’s what Anet was aiming for)

Was the main reason behind your post to ask what about GW2 was going to keep the players playing?

If that was the case I believe its the PvP(or WvW), and their combat system(dodge, attack and all that stuff)

Exotics are easy to obtain. There is no grind that isn’t self-imposed.

showatt.9413:

Now if there is no DR and i can just do the same dungeon over and over again, I can get a set in less than 2. Then I’ll be more inclined to get every available set, for every character. Anet sees something wrong with that; but I’m asking the question, what’s wrong with ‘doing the same dungeon over and over again?’

this has nothing to do with your post but:

maybe Anet thinks you shouldn’t spend so much time playing their game non stop(with emphasis in non stop and no emphasis in long time) and they will go out of their way to stop you. like in some old rpg where a message would pop up if you played for too long.

What do you think of GW2 strange class/build system?

I cant stop thinking about it and I find myself coming back to GW2 to test it in PvP and PvE.

getting all the armours for all your characters seems a little like overkill. XD
It looks like you are a hardcore MMO player. and GW2 looks as if it was designed for casual MMO players and GW1 players.

since I have tried and failed playing a ton of MMOs (got bored at lvl 10 and stoped playing) GW2 looks as if it was made for me. max lvl in less than a week.

maybe a bunch of aspects of GW2 are not your cup of tea (but other aspects are!). but if this game is made for casual players then you have nothing to fear about GW2 future.

There’s a lot of factors the leave players unmotivated to continue the game. One of the biggest ones for me is that the game world simply doesn’t care, which is cool and all, but it doesn’t feel like it keeps track of what I’ve done in game… other than the leveling and gear, which are annoying treadmills. Compared to GW1 this game doesn’t feel like the story lore isn’t as important or interesting. I mean in GW1 I got to see changes based on what I did, when I decided to do it. The story and game literally felt like it was all about me. In GW2 events are always cycling, and it’s obvious it’s a cycle, but ANet does mix it up a little bit I’ve noticed; however, since I don’t know exactly what changes they make and when I don’t feel like wasting 30+ minutes trying to figure it all out (call me spoiled by map way-points). The world not caring in GW2 I am simply not enjoying very much. I prefer how GW1 catered to me.

acuerdox.9781:

I could tell you what their message is. It’s have fun doing different things in our game.

But thats them imposing on us the way they want us to play, not letting the player get what s/he wants out of the game.

Bornthisway.4609:

Exotics are easy to obtain. There is no grind that isn’t self-imposed.

Yeah boy, gold just flows into my pockets!

acuerdox.9781:

I could tell you what their message is. It’s have fun doing different things in our game.

And I have already stated in the post – I am aware of this.

The question I’m asking is, why are they doing it?
Do you honestly not see how flawed this design is, forcing players to do the content that they have no interest in doing?

If I want to get a dungeon set fast, and I want it today, I should be able to grind it out and get it fast. But I can’t. Instead I’m literally “forced” to do other part of the game that I don’t necessarily want to do until I have gotten my dungeon set.

This is what I’m talking about. We are getting punished for absolutely no reason whatsoever, and the reason this happen is because Anet’s lack of faith in their own game.

They’re scared that you won’t play anymore once you have acquired everything. They didn’t think their game is fun enough, and I’m telling you – as well as Anet – that I have every faith in the game regarding to content.

The game at the moment is basically Anet telling you " Ok this is how we’ want you to have fun, and if you do it any other way, you get punished.". If you farm too much? you get punished. If you don’t want to do WVW? you get punished ( you need 500 badge for legendary, which has nothing to do with wvw as legendary are more a less a pve thing. Its another “you want it- and this is the only way to get it.”). You stay in the same area for too long ? hoho boy you’re so getting spanked. (DR once again)

This is the reason why I’m making this post.
I want the designers to actually look at their design and the message they’re sending their players – the players who are capable of seeing through the illusion of grandeur and get right down to the design.

Anet doesnt force you into anything. You can still farm to your hearts content and get everything..20 tokens at a time and a different mission at a time..what is so wrong with that? Im pretty sure the original model had the tokens dropping randomly instead of always at the end and you didnt always get even 20.

acuerdox.9781:

showatt.9413:

Now if there is no DR and i can just do the same dungeon over and over again, I can get a set in less than 2. Then I’ll be more inclined to get every available set, for every character. Anet sees something wrong with that; but I’m asking the question, what’s wrong with ‘doing the same dungeon over and over again?’

this has nothing to do with your post but:

maybe Anet thinks you shouldn’t spend so much time playing their game non stop(with emphasis in non stop and no emphasis in long time) and they will go out of their way to stop you. like in some old rpg where a message would pop up if you played for too long.

What do you think of GW2 strange class/build system?

I cant stop thinking about it and I find myself coming back to GW2 to test it in PvP and PvE.

getting all the armours for all your characters seems a little like overkill. XD
It looks like you are a hardcore MMO player. and GW2 looks as if it was designed for casual MMO players and GW1 players.

since I have tried and failed playing a ton of MMOs (got bored at lvl 10 and stoped playing) GW2 looks as if it was made for me. max lvl in less than a week.

maybe a bunch of aspects of GW2 are not your cup of tea (but other aspects are!). but if this game is made for casual players then you have nothing to fear about GW2 future.

I have no problem with the leveling system in GW2.
I have no problem having fun with the characters and builds.

in fact I applaud the design.

GW2 is by far the most unique MMO I have ever played, and yet as much I want to enjoy it, the mix-message Anet is sending out only becomes more glaring with every passing day.

If you look at the game from a designer’s point of view, it is as if the game is stuck between the old fashioned, grindy MMOs and the new, revolutionary MMO that GW2 is supposed to be.

You have the old fashioned method of acquiring gears- that is to farm and to grind dungeons/ karma non-stop. (The requirements of every exotic pieces – except the crafted ones – all require some pretty intense grind. Hell even the crafted ones require you to farm )

And you have the newest design philosophy that player should be able to enjoy the game and that grinding is bad, so Anet goes out of their way to stop people from farming. ( DR in dungeons. DR in getting Globs. DR in staying in the same zone for too long. Champion Mob drops white. Chest rarely give any competent rewards. All of which are designed to stop player from thinking “hmm i want some rare I’mma go with a group of people and just kill champ all day”. )

Also I’m not a hardcore player lol I don’t play more than 4 hours a day. On weekends I used to play about 6 when I was really into it, but now I cant be bothered.

I’m a casual player with a hardcore player’s attitude. Since I’ve always wanted to become a game designer, Part of my enjoyment from playing game is testing the craft and play the game the designer intended us to play.

And i can honestly say, atm, after 2 month of playing as we’re intended, it is very tiresome. We are actually playing a very controlled game without any of the freedom that we supposed to have in playing a game that is clamored to be revolutionary. Instead we’re back to this grind-y farm-y themepark, which would’ve been fun, if we’re allowed to farm to our heart’s content.

Ditton.3149:

Anet doesnt force you into anything. You can still farm to your hearts content and get everything..20 tokens at a time and a different mission at a time..what is so wrong with that? Im pretty sure the original model had the tokens dropping randomly instead of always at the end and you didnt always get even 20.

Which is a pretty kitten bad design, and just because they have made it a little bit better, doesn’t mean the design is now flawless. You need about 1200 token to get absolute everything, which is equal to 60 dungeon runs. 60 runs per set on 1 character is still ridiculous grind. Average dungeon takes about 40 min, less if you run with pros, more if you run with pugs. that’s 40 hours on 1 set. If you play 4 hours a day, that’s 10 days. 10 days of doing nothing but dungeons.

Fortunately i like farming, so i did just that. Got my set in 10 days. another set in another 10 days. And I’m wondering to myself am I supposed to do this for every character i have, or is that unrealistic? What if I wanted every single dungeon set on every character?

If the DR isn’t in placed, then I can do just that, and farm every dungeons and have fun because the reward is worth it. But i can’t. Because the reward is not worth the effort I spent. The people who feel the same as I do have already quit.

It is the same as champion mobs. No one does them because the effort outweigh the reward. People only do them once in a full moon when there are enough people around and when they feel like wasting the time.

And it is certainly the same with legendary weapons.

I refuse to waste god-knows-how-many-hours on making these weapons, not only because the effort outweigh the reward 100 : 1, but also because I know even if I work hard there’s no guarantee I’ll get it.

Saying Anet doesn’t force you to do anything means you don’t have the experience and ability to critically examine the way its design works in turns of reward and punishments, and I won’t bother explaining it to you. Not because I’m a prik, but because it would take too long.

Every MMO has grind, only thing which differs is, what you grind. Life has grind, everything is about grind, its part of life.

WRT to the DR dungeon farm thing: I think I got it down. While I think Anet wants us to farm, I think they want us to do multiple different activities throughout a day, instead of a single monotonous activity. kinda makes sense, and while it may not be the most efficient, you mask the boring and tediousness of the farming event by having variety.

Iunno how to describe grind… whether it’s good or bad; it depends on how you look at it. For me, grind is basically a feeling of doing the same repetitive thing over and and over again to accomplish a task; whether that being on a large scale like map completions & getting your legendary items, or on smaller scales like killing a boss or finishing a Heart Quest, they all require some sort of “grind” to them. That’s perfectly fine IMO.

It’s actually dependent on whether you enjoy “what you’re doing while you grind”. If you hate repeating doing dungeons to earn rewards, then it’s fair to say that “you hate grinding”. Or if you dislike having to run to wave-points after wave-points to get ‘map completion’, then it’s also fair to say that “you hate grinding”.

Personally, I don’t mind grinding dungeons, or grinding wave points. I find that that’s just part of doing anything; things can’t always be brand new. That’s not why GW2 is boring for me.

I get bored in GW2 because there doesn’t seem to be… a fun mechanic that I can repeat doing and not get bored of. In RTS games, I like picking different champs each time, teaming up with 5 man on the mic, and trying to improve each time I play. Those are the things which motivates me to play an RTS game like Dota or League, because it’s fun when sometimes you get 5 man tank team… going to lose probably that game, but just seeing how the team orientates in that situation…. it’s quite entertaining (if you don’t have any ego issue about losing, then yah it is fun).

Another example is how fun it is to just shoot things in FPS games like TF2. I love repeating playing badwater (it’s a map in the game that i’ve played probably 1000+ times now), because rocket jumping in that map is awesome, when spies face-stab you it’s hilarious, fun to watch heavy die (best animation ever), and don’t get me started with using a bow instead of a sniper rifle as sniper.

Those are the things that kept me playing. Iunno what GW2 has which is just as fun… I still do dungeons occasionally, but I’m a ‘mechanics guy’…. mechanics kept me playing LoL for 3 yrs, TF2 for maybe 4-5 yrs. So I know that good mechanics in a game works in keeping its players around; some of my highschool friends still play TF2 sometimes even.

Even in the first MMO I ever played (maple story !!! LOL, it was like 4 years ago), played the game for around 4-5 years before I switched over to RTS/FPS. But man, that game kept me in it (as a kid), cuz it was all about lvling; afterschool my buds and I always get on the Ludi-Party-Quest and hope for good loots. The buy/sell in MapleStory was great… [ended up stop playing it cuz it was old-school grind]. But hey, that’s basically how MMOs still are these days… all just about lvl grind and hard-to-get achievements.

Other than doing party quests (or dungeons/raids) with good buds, I’m not sure that any MMORPG these days have anything in them to naturally keep players playing. (Most of them ain’t got any fun mechanics, they usually just hook you because you’ve got accounts in it with a bunch of stuff…. it’s like you’ve built your own dynasty and you want to keep it alive even if the game itself has already gotten old -cough* WoW). But hey, I’m not really a hardcore MMORPG player so I don’t really understand why ppl play a game that doesn’t have easily entertaining stuffs to do. I never play a game mainly just to be able to ‘surf my own EGO’… we’re all proud cuz we’re human, so yah… losing sucks, not having better gears sucks… but those things are just human-greed, while entertainment is part of our playfulness nature. I think owning things in video game is fine… but if you let it become the reason that you log on everyday – then that’s no longer right. Even with grinding legendary Items…. I don’t think it’s fun to log on everyday just to progress in getting a legendary item set. For me, that is not ‘naturally’ fun at all… I feel the time instead of feeling the fun.

I understand that GW2 is trying to step away from traditional MMO which are mostly about grinding lvls and gears…. but if so – what’s it got for players to do in it which is purely just “cool, awesome, crazy, EPIC”? I mean, I like GW2 explorations & dungeons, but they just run out real fast in terms of “the awesome factor”. First time on any dungeon, it’s always at least ‘pretty awesome’ for any players. But as you run it a few more times, and a few more times, and then a few MORE times… it seems to be throwing the same tricks at you. And tricks aren’t as fun as “toys” – if you get what I’m referring to.

Rocket-Launcher/Bombs/Arrows that Sticks ppl to walls [TF2] Or 60+ Heroes to Choose from playing [LoL] = toys.

Figuring how to beat a content [GW2 Dungeon] = tricks.

penatbater.4710:

WRT to the DR dungeon farm thing: I think I got it down. While I think Anet wants us to farm, I think they want us to do multiple different activities throughout a day, instead of a single monotonous activity. kinda makes sense, and while it may not be the most efficient, you mask the boring and tediousness of the farming event by having variety.

It makes complete sense, of course.
They make a game with so much content – obviously they want you to try everything.
But punishing you for doing things you want to do simply isn’t the way to go. You – and Anet – are assuming farming is boring for everyone. Well it isn’t, as long as the reward is worth it.

Is the reward worth it in GW2? without DR, it is.
With DR, it isn’t. And in case you haven’t notice, DR is everything really. You get DR for dungeons, you get DR for zone farming and you get DR for salvaging. These are punishments.

What are the rewards? Skins.

Omnio.3652:

Every MMO has grind, only thing which differs is, what you grind. Life has grind, everything is about grind, its part of life.

Except grind in life usually come with satisfactory reward, unless you live in China and gets paid 50 cent for a hours worth of hardwork. That’s when I would consider getting a new job.

Does GW2 has satisfactory reward? no.

FluffyDoe.7539:

I understand that GW2 is trying to step away from traditional MMO which are mostly about grinding lvls and gears…. but if so – what’s it got for players to do in it consistently? I mean, I like GW2 explorations & dungeons, but they just run out real fast in terms of “the awesome factor”. First time on any dungeon, it’s always at least ‘pretty awesome’ for any players. But as you run it a few more times, and a few more times, and then a few MORE times… it seems to be throwing the same tricks at you. And tricks aren’t as fun as “toys” – if you get what I’m referring to.

Rocket-Launcher in TF2 = toys.

Figuring how to beat a content = tricks.

Except GW2 actually ISN"T stepping away from that part of MMO. Every single cool things in the game requires an ridiculous amount of grind. This game is actually way more grindy than any other game I have played, not in terms of leveling, but in terms of getting anything worthwhile.

The only ways of making a dungeon stay awesome is to make it so you don’t have to do them so many times to get anything out of them. You can do it for the fun of it, and get properly rewarded every time you do them.

How about 3 unidentified dye for every dungeons? how about 1 fine transmutation stone for every dungeon, on top of the tokens? It is up to Anet to figure out what people consider to be proper reward. I can only say, the system way have atm, it is not enough.

On Dungeon Token Farm-

I can see the issue here. On one hand I can understand the need to DR speed runs, but on the other I really don’t see why DR should effect players that have chosen to use their time solely on the one dungeon. I see the reason for DR on repeat runs of the same path, but would like to see a change in that the DR on repeat runs is removed as long as you complete all four paths. This would allow players to focus on a single dungeon while also preventing the situation of needing to solely do one path repeatedly.

On Karma Farm-

This has gotten a lot better. 4.5k for dailies or more with karma boosting buffs. Players can get a piece in around 8 to 10 days solely from the karma jugs and karma from the DE needed for the daily. Karma has been added to dungeons as well, making it nice if the player has a dungeon run as a typical thing they enjoy doing.

showatt.9413:

penatbater.4710:

WRT to the DR dungeon farm thing: I think I got it down. While I think Anet wants us to farm, I think they want us to do multiple different activities throughout a day, instead of a single monotonous activity. kinda makes sense, and while it may not be the most efficient, you mask the boring and tediousness of the farming event by having variety.

It makes complete sense, of course.
They make a game with so much content – obviously they want you to try everything.
But punishing you for doing things you want to do simply isn’t the way to go. You – and Anet – are assuming farming is boring for everyone. Well it isn’t, as long as the reward is worth it.

Is the reward worth it in GW2? without DR, it is.
With DR, it isn’t. And in case you haven’t notice, DR is everything really. You get DR for dungeons, you get DR for zone farming and you get DR for salvaging. These are punishments.

What are the rewards? Skins.

Omnio.3652:

Every MMO has grind, only thing which differs is, what you grind. Life has grind, everything is about grind, its part of life.

Except grind in life usually come with satisfactory reward, unless you live in China and gets paid 50 cent for a hours worth of hardwork. That’s when I would consider getting a new job.

Does GW2 has satisfactory reward? no.

Reward in a game? WOW. Players are just not who they are used to be. Nice friendly people who love to have fun. I once met a guy in another MMO who told me that there is no reward for PvP so why he should do any PvP… O M G. So simple – because its fun. If you don’t like it, don’t do it, its a game, you can choose from many games, choose the one you have fun with. Do people have any reward from playing football with friends? A better body, maybe, but most of all, they do it cause its fun for them. And today, almost noone cares about fun, just about farming a better gear etc. go to work if you want to farm something so you can buy something. I hope these days when fun was most important in a game will come back one day.

Give people something to work for (whether it’s stats or skins), and they’ll complain it’s too grindy.

Remove the “grind” (however you define it), and people complain they have “nothing to work towards” and that “everything comes too easy”.

You really can’t solve a discussion like this. Really, Omio’s view is best for your health in the long run.

Personally, for ppl who like to do spvp or wvw , chances of getting for example legendary are = 0. Ofc u can say its legendary , but whats legendary about it ? Tons of time spent in orr grinding like kitten for karma and then getting gold (leching other players, buying gems, or buying from botters ).
I dont know about others but i find this system of grinding completely kitten
If they said ok u need 250 of each material, you need 1 mystic forge crafted weapon 250 pvp tokens 250 dungeon tokens and 100% finished map ok that cool. U did all u also farmed , but making game into grind fest its sad.
Btw THE ONLY reason bots still bot around , are the prices of legendary weapons. Nothing else is expensive. So there u go u have grind fest u have bots , but after all its completely Anet fault.

Honestly, I think I gave Anet $60 bucks for them to give me toys to play. I wasn’t looking for “tricks” to solve 24-7 like in the EXP dungeon runs. If I really wanted fun problems to solve, then I’ll go do my physics hw…. (and try to understand why God couldn’t have just let light behave in the properties of Newton’s Law —-- shazam… go die Einstein -^‘’’).

And I would be more than glad if they just give me a huge hammer in GW2 dungeon to smash ghosts around. Seriously, if this whole game was just smash-n-bash; I’m all down for it. With graphics like this…. how can ‘super actiony gameplay’ not be naturally fun in GW2. Don’t understand why they even used these types of combat mechanics for an MMORPG…..

Disclaimer: I read your post.

Seems like you could benefit from simply changing what you want in the game. Plenty of people accept the insanity of acquiring certain items, especially after you already have a full exotic gear. And that’s just fine.

Don’t want to farm for a LONG time? Don’t. Does that mean you can’t get some of the things you do actually want? Yeah, and that’s a bummer, but definitely not an incentive to change many of the things you suggested.

Anet does appear to give mixed signals as to what they want players to do, but I think that in reality, it’s not Anet. They simply try to please many different players, and give the players a lot of different options to play the game. If you don’t want to farm for ages, there’s exotic gear available that you can get within a week. Want more? There’s dungeon farming. Want even more than that? There’s the legendaries. Also the achievements are a reflection on those who want to get the most out of the game.

It’s a mistake to conclude you must want everything the game has to offer. Take what you like from the game, and have fun.

I do realize this attitude might prevent discussions on how to improve the game. If we just accept the game for what it is, it won’t improve. But I think this is one of the meta-design choices in the game that doesn’t require a makeover. It’s more specific issues that should be discussed (e.g., why are dungeons so BORING?).

GW2 is like any other game, infact it’s even worse.
Here you have to grind insane to gain a chance to aquire the materials and pre-legendary in the game. With my calculations it will take another month to gain all the materials for the legendary. In this game you only need $$$ to buy yourself your pre-legendary.

It’s a shame, I hoped GW2 would bring more innovation and would make an end to this grind! You only need real money, this has nothing to do with skills anymore!

To give you an example I bought around 50 keys to open the black lion chest, had not one weapon skin. Don’t fall for this marketing tactics..
You could easily spend more then any other MMO’s where you have to pay monthly..
Bag, really dissapointed, this game is just dominated by gold farmers!

Perhaps I should return to Diablo 3, wich isn’t that better though…

Yes, because you desperately NEED a legendary to play the game and it’s in no way intended as a long-term, optional goal.

Crudelis Perfecto.1659:

GW2 is like any other game, infact it’s even worse.
Here you have to grind insane to gain a chance to aquire the materials and pre-legendary in the game. With my calculations it will take another month to gain all the materials for the legendary. In this game you only need $$$ to buy yourself your pre-legendary.

It’s a shame, I hoped GW2 would bring more innovation and would make an end to this grind! You only need real money, this has nothing to do with skills anymore!

To give you an example I bought around 50 keys to open the black lion chest, had not one weapon skin. Don’t fall for this marketing tactics..
You could easily spend more then any other MMO’s where you have to pay monthly..
Bag, really dissapointed, this game is just dominated by gold farmers!

Perhaps I should return to Diablo 3, wich isn’t that better though…

Funny how people are being dissapointed with every new MMO with same stuff. Maybe MMOs not for you? I don’t have that need to open every black lion chest and I have many in my bank, if I’ll get enough gold maybe I’ll buy gems to open them. They need to get money somehow, or you are going to do best MMO ever for free for all players? Oh god, we are gona love you. Oh w8, you are not gona do it because you can’t, without money it doesn’t work. kitten

P.S. Every new MMO is dominated by gold farmers, those MMOs played a lot are dominated even today, even if these games are way older than GW 2. Accept these facts or you’ll be dissapointed 24/7, that means stress and thats not good for your health.

Im assuming most of you have’nt played games like lineage,EVE or Aion, now those games have a grind and they punish you if your killed in pvp. This game is a walk in the park compared to them lol.

im doing wvw, dungeons and tpvp now. my world PVE has ended at Frostgorge Sound, which is my favourite zone. i went into Orr for about 20 mins, saw someone abusing some boss’s AI by kiting him infinitely while 50 people pounded on it, ported out and never came back.

im doing select dungeons to acquire my favorite looking gear, and loving that aspect of the game.

i really hope that rewards are equally re-distributed across the world so that people will disperse away from Orr.

Amirio.3802:

Im assuming most of you have’nt played games like lineage,EVE or Aion, now those games have a grind and they punish you if your killed in pvp. This game is a walk in the park compared to them lol.

I’m guessing you didn’t even read a single word of any of the post that is currently in this thread.

Lienage and Aion… these games reward your grind with better gears so you can triumph other players with them. With Eve, the grind is for you to gain money in order to buy better ships and upgrades so your ship can be better than other people.

In GW2, at the end of every grind is just some skins. Some of them don’t even have animations like the flame legion sets. (ever wonder why so many people flock to do CoF? It’s not because the dungeons’ fun lmao. ) Yet the grind is equivalent to any generic MMO with real gear progression and more. Seriously, do you even think about the things you post before you post them?

Please at least have the decency to read some of the posts before replying – because not doing that is just plain rude.

Shifty.5187:

Disclaimer: I read your post.

Seems like you could benefit from simply changing what you want in the game. Plenty of people accept the insanity of acquiring certain items, especially after you already have a full exotic gear. And that’s just fine.

Don’t want to farm for a LONG time? Don’t. Does that mean you can’t get some of the things you do actually want? Yeah, and that’s a bummer, but definitely not an incentive to change many of the things you suggested.

Anet does appear to give mixed signals as to what they want players to do, but I think that in reality, it’s not Anet. They simply try to please many different players, and give the players a lot of different options to play the game. If you don’t want to farm for ages, there’s exotic gear available that you can get within a week. Want more? There’s dungeon farming. Want even more than that? There’s the legendaries. Also the achievements are a reflection on those who want to get the most out of the game.

It’s a mistake to conclude you must want everything the game has to offer. Take what you like from the game, and have fun.

I do realize this attitude might prevent discussions on how to improve the game. If we just accept the game for what it is, it won’t improve. But I think this is one of the meta-design choices in the game that doesn’t require a makeover. It’s more specific issues that should be discussed (e.g., why are dungeons so BORING?).

Finally, some intelligent response.

I did have fun with the game. I love it. And it’s worth every single penny I have spent and when I eventually quit (Haven’t quitted yet but it’s getting there) I’ll be quitting with a smiling face.

In regard to dungeon boring, I actually don’t think that’s worth even discussing because I thought Dungeons are alright. Whether something is fun or not, it is entirely subjective and very little can the dev actually get out of the discussion other than some people like it while some other don’t.

That is not the case with this design issue though.

Consider this for a second : If you are asked to do 60 dungeons, and at the end of the 60 dungeons you will be rewarded with a legendary precursor tailored to the specific dungeon you have done, in addition to the armor set you would have purchased and other goodies that can be bought with the tokens? Would you do them and be happy? I would.

60 dungeons is still quite a lot, but we are guaranteed of a very attractive reward which outweigh the effort. Making legendary will still be hard – but now the goal is so much more realistic than throwing 4 greatsword into the forge and hope for the best. And on the off chance you get the precursor you still gotta be throwing more things into forge and hope for the best.

It doesn’t matter how grindy a game is, as long as there is an appealing reward at the end, people will have fun doing them. Because they know they are working towards something. Because they know at the end of that dark tunnel lies a secret garden.

The tokens and other loots you get from dungeons? Those are like the lamps along the dark tunnel. With every passing lamp you becoming more excited about what’s to come.

But at the moment, it’s just a dark tunnel with few draping lamps.
You walk through that tunnel, arrive at the same destination you came but with some candies and chimp changes you’ve picked up, and you find yourself wondering what’s the point of going through it in the first place.

Dungeons are fine imo. With something really attractive at the end – it doesn’t have to be legendary, maybe something like a mount or whatever else the dev could come up with (hell even a statue of your character that you can place in keeps around wvw would’ve made me grind like no tomorrow ) – people will find the dungeon grind fun – or at least more tolerable – to complete.

With just another skin that you throw over your exotic gear, and with these skin taking over 40 epic hours to get, people are going to find dungeons pointless and boring. It really is that simple.

I expect at some point we’ll have daily dungeons or daily pvp maps (maybe weekly) like the Z-key guys in GW1.

NoOneShotU.3479:

I expect at some point we’ll have daily dungeons or daily pvp maps (maybe weekly) like the Z-key guys in GW1.

What are you talking about? I thought they already have monthly for dungeons.
Or are you talking about making dungeon and pvp a daily thing? In that case I welcome the notion. Extra reward is always nice, and it’ll help ease the problem for a while.

As for those who are too lazy to read the wall of text I have posted, here is a summary of the design issue i found. Problems. Not problem. So there’s not just one issue here. There are two:

First the reward for the grind. 50 dungeon runs for better gears with better stats and rune? Sure. 50 dungeons for some skins that has the same stat as other exotic? Well if it’s animated ones like the flame legion set I guess its ok. 50 dungeons for non-animated armors? No thanks. If it’s the same as all other exotic armor I’ll make do with flame legion. This, my friend, isn’t really a good design. A good design will make you want to do every dungeons and more. If every dungeon set has some cool animations to them, people would’ve stayed a bit longer.

Second the DR that comes with the grind, which is a mix signal that Anet sends. The DR unnecessarily prologue the time of grinding, which should have been like pulling off a band-aid. The sooner yo get it done the better. But in GW2 the DR has made it seem like SLOWLY pulling off a band-aid and it hurts like hell.

there’s no endgame progression. I miss working towards gear to complete a huge raid intance. i think giving everyone the same gear works wonders for spvp and could be applied to wvwv as well to avoid gear imbalances in it while also providing endgame gear progression for PVE.

as it is now, if you don’t like wvwvw there’s nothing to do at endgame.

Once you hit 80 all that’s left is grinding. Grinding karma in Orr or doing a dungeon 20ish times for a set of gear. If world completion was actually meaningful maybe there would be a reason to do it, but all you get is……uuummm…nothing actually.

vespers.1759:

there’s no endgame progression. I miss working towards gear to complete a huge raid intance. i think giving everyone the same gear works wonders for spvp and could be applied to wvwv as well to avoid gear imbalances in it while also providing endgame gear progression for PVE.

as it is now, if you don’t like wvwvw there’s nothing to do at endgame.

So let me get this straight -

You miss gear progression.
Spvp has no gear progression.
You want wvw to be like spvp.
But you miss gear progression.

O…kay.

Well, when I first heard about guild wars 2 I knew there wasn’t going to be gear progression at all so how about we leave it out of the game as the game originally intended?

Not having gear progression isn’t the reason why I started this post. I knew perfectly well what I signed up for when I purchased Gw2. Please don’t derail the discussion I have intended to start. Thank you!

Josher.9612:

Once you hit 80 all that’s left is grinding. Grinding karma in Orr or doing a dungeon 20ish times for a set of gear. If world completion was actually meaningful maybe there would be a reason to do it, but all you get is……uuummm…nothing actually.

Lmao yea.

I mean you get ONE of the ingredient to create legendary, which is like, super unrealistic for you to craft them until you actually have the precursor. And even if you do, it’s still bloody hard.

And you get a star next to your name. on 1 character.
OMG i’m gonna go and complete the world multiple times on different character!

• Lol jk. I’m not. *

Seriously how is that good design?

How about a mount with 30 % movement speed (de-mount on damage and usable in combat) at the end of the world completion so the next time you try to complete the world it wouldn’t take as long the first time you did it.

That, I think is good design.
Shoot me for wanting mounts

Bornthisway.4609:

Exotics are easy to obtain. There is no grind that isn’t self-imposed.

Agree.

There are so many ways to get a full exotic set: dungeons, crafting, karma, wvw…

Crafting an exotic item wont cost much and the money required to buy mats/it will be gathered while doing events or dungeon which will get karma or tokens.

Also many dungeon sets share stats so there’s no need to run the same istance or path over and over again, it is possible to just mix items obetained with differents methods and have the top equip.

Yes wearing pieces from different dungeons will probably make your toon look bad, but then it’s just an aesthetic matter so as Bornthisway said GW2 grinds are self imposed.

Mik Hell.8206:

Bornthisway.4609:

Exotics are easy to obtain. There is no grind that isn’t self-imposed.

Agree.

There are so many ways to get a full exotic set: dungeons, crafting, karma, wvw…

Crafting an exotic item wont cost much and the money required to buy mats/it will be gathered while doing events or dungeon which will get karma or tokens.

Also many dungeon sets share stats so there’s no need to run the same istance or path over and over again, it is possible to just mix items obetained with differents methods and have the top equip.

Yes wearing pieces from different dungeons will probably make your toon look bad, but then it’s just an aesthetic matter so as Bornthisway said GW2 grinds are self imposed.

Okay so I only need 1 exotic set. Got it.

No point doing dungeons at all then. I have enough gold to buy a set.

So what now? Running with the zerg day after day, farming karms that you aren’t going to need?

Doing spvp with a bunch of thieve mesmers and warriors for skins that you aren’t going to notice a difference when actually pvping?

Hmmm. I sense a ‘if you don’t find it fun then quit’ arguements coming up. Sorry but some of us actually love the game enough to want to see it improved here. This is the closest game to perfection – imo – on the market and its just lacking a little push.

What is needed is not ‘removing the grind’, but make the grind ‘more realistic’ in turns of effort and rewards. I like the most of the dungeon skins – I sure as hell don’t like them enough to do the same dungeon 50 times to get them when they provide no extra bonus other than looking somewhat good. (Except the flame legion armor because that’s animated.)

I like how you reply to threads as well. Jump into a thread – look for the ones with the least amount of words that you agree with – and proceed to quote and reply. what happened to the good old skimming?

Honestly, I have already explained everything you have said in my posts. At least read a few of them for cry out loud.

I’m not going for dungeon armor because it doesn’t look good. I’ll only comment on getting a Legendary.

Yes it is a grind and you need to farm all your stuff. I don’t have a problem with that. I can make about 5 gold every night, 10 if I’m lucky. What is killing the game for me is that I farm for a week, make about 60G which is then reduced to 0G by the mystic forge, all that work for nothing. I’m so devastated by that loss that I usually end up buying gold. I have a full time job so I have money to spend.

hmm. I just checked the confirmation emails and I’ve already bought about $210,- worth of gems since launch, that crept up on me. Lifetime sub? You know what, I’m giving up on the Legendary. After I’m done with the jumping puzzles and exploration, I’m quieting the game. My stuff will be donated to my guild, the 8 out of 179 that are still on will be happy.