Guild Wars 2 Is Not Grind-Heavy
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Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
Raine figures that only he/she understands game design and everyone who disagrees with him/her couldn’t possibly understand it on the same level, or else they’d agree.
He/she mistakes his/her limits of vision for the limits of the world.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
The difference doesn’t matter. You can beat this game in “greens” with little to NO problem. That ALONE, makes it optional.
It does. This is not subjective and based on opinion, it is objective and fact. with 1 more power I will deal 1 more damage than the guy next to me if he were doing everything the same. Simple as that.
By your reasoning everything is optional. You can enter dungeons at level 2 no problem, go ahead. You don’t even need to wear armor for anything. Troll away
The statistical increase is objective, but the necessity is not. This is a point that many of those who are stating that Ascended gear is ‘optional’ are trying to get to. At current, the statistical bonuses are not required to complete or take part in any content in the game, and your drive to remain effective is largely subjective and dependant on the things you find enjoyable in the game. You can play WvWvW in Whites and still enjoy it if you don’t mind the knowledge that many other people will have a greater statistical advantage over you. Remaining competitive is an option, and many have weighed the effort of acquiring Ascended gear against the benefits it can bring and decided that it’s not for them. I apologise if I’m not explaining this in a way that can’t be considered a ‘troll’, but many of us play games for different reasons. And if you don’t mind the knowledge that you’ll probably die, you can certainly attempt a dungeon naked and at level 2. I don’t really see how accepting that people enjoy different things is a ‘troll’.
Personally, I don’t much care for Ascended gear, and I likely won’t until I’m forced to; I’m currently not forced to. But if I pick up a piece or two via dailies and whatnot, that’s fine with me. I don’t care about being competitive, because nothing I enjoy demands I care, and nothing I’ve seen so far suggests that I ever will truly care.
Behold: Opinions!
The difference doesn’t matter. You can beat this game in “greens” with little to NO problem. That ALONE, makes it optional.
It does. This is not subjective and based on opinion, it is objective and fact. with 1 more power I will deal 1 more damage than the guy next to me if he were doing everything the same. Simple as that.
By your reasoning everything is optional. You can enter dungeons at level 2 no problem, go ahead. You don’t even need to wear armor for anything. Troll away
The statistical increase is objective, but the necessity is not. This is a point that many of those who are stating that Ascended gear is ‘optional’ are trying to get to. At current, the statistical bonuses are not required to complete or take part in any content in the game, and your drive to remain effective is largely subjective and dependant on the things you find enjoyable in the game. You can play WvWvW in Whites and still enjoy it if you don’t mind the knowledge that many other people will have a greater statistical advantage over you. Remaining competitive is an option, and many have weighed the effort of acquiring Ascended gear against the benefits it can bring and decided that it’s not for them. I apologise if I’m not explaining this in a way that can’t be considered a ‘troll’, but many of us play games for different reasons. And if you don’t mind the knowledge that you’ll probably die, you can certainly attempt a dungeon naked and at level 2. I don’t really see how accepting that people enjoy different things is a ‘troll’.
Personally, I don’t much care for Ascended gear, and I likely won’t until I’m forced to; I’m currently not forced to. But if I pick up a piece or two via dailies and whatnot, that’s fine with me. I don’t care about being competitive, because nothing I enjoy demands I care, and nothing I’ve seen so far suggests that I ever will truly care.
This is my stance on the gear, almost to the letter. I don’t care that I’m 5% “behind” the top if it doesn’t keep me from playing whatever content I want.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
OP you’re completely leaving out the early levels of the game where quests turn into “Kill x amount of X” or “Kill the x boss”.
My hate of the Renowned Heart system knows no bounds, and could take up its own thread. The Dynamic Event system is okay and should have been used more.
The difference doesn’t matter. You can beat this game in “greens” with little to NO problem. That ALONE, makes it optional.
It does. This is not subjective and based on opinion, it is objective and fact. with 1 more power I will deal 1 more damage than the guy next to me if he were doing everything the same. Simple as that.
By your reasoning everything is optional. You can enter dungeons at level 2 no problem, go ahead. You don’t even need to wear armor for anything. Troll away
So lets say my ascended gears gives me 15 extra damage and 15 extra damage protection per second. Over the course of a 1v1 battle, I can put out and take hundreds more damage in the battle, a huge difference in close fights.
Now take that to a group level. With 25 people, you suddenly have nearly 400 extra damage and tanking ability over the size of a group. This is thousands of extra damage otherwise not there, possibly an extra dead enemy and an extra living ally.
While less important in PvE, having an increase in dps will always help with doing things faster and more efficient for those who wish to be.
And if you don’t want to do this, that’s fine. But this does affect those who like doing WvW and dungeons, because that is how they play the game. This gear forces you to consider how it impacts your play, because it will impact your play.
Edit: few minutes after mack and proxy darn. A lot of my guild would be much too affected by the thought if better gear when looking for people to kill in WvW.
Edit2: It is much harder for those with situational gear to get the stats they need within a reasonable amount of time because of the time gated reward system.
(edited by Lanser.8520)
Anyone playing GW2 and complaining about “grind” obviously never played EverQuest or Asheron’s Call… talk about needing millions of XP just to raise 1 skill point and grinding for days just to get that 0.001% drop rate ingredient you need for your composite bow… so go cry somewhere else, there is no grind in GW2.
the only grind is for very specific style skins, and for the very top of the line ascended&infused stuff.
everything else makes sense.
Jesus. People on these forums really like to twist their definition of “grind” to suit their complaints. Contrary to belief grind does not mean solely a repetition of tasks (in regards to MMORPGS).
First of all Ascended gear. Something that Anet was planning from the start. This theory crafting on what WILL be rather than what IS is useless. We don’t know how big of an increase they’ll be. If there’ll be even more ways to get them when the other pieces are released. So CURRENTLY ascended gear is optional. Isn’t this game supposed to about skill? That’s what people kept saying. Now that there is gear that adds what…6 stat points (correct me if I’m wrong) we’ll lose all the time? If that 6 stat points are the defining factor to winning or losing…then maybe you should work on your skill a bit more. If fractals and dailies are too hard/too long/too whatever, how would you like to get them?
Now onto laurels. We have a way to get ascended with the absolute minimal amount of effort needed. Seriously. If you are so casual you can’t spend the 30 min (tops) needed for the dailies and a month isn’t long enough to do the monthly…then why do you even need ascended? If you play so little you can’t put in such a minimal amount of effort for the gear then what use would it even be for you? Unfortunately just wanting it isn’t a good enough reason. Now if the dailies are making you do something you don’t want to do, I have to ask…what do you want to do? So far the dailies I’ve seen are things that you’d complete just by playing (except maybe the crafting, but making 10 ingots is so incredibly easy).
In closing…please for the love of God. Read this before saying who “grindy” this game is.
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
What Anet has done with the new dailies is move the grind from FotM to open world PvE. You are right that no one complained about the grind before with the dailies, but they are now. Think about the intent of laurels. It is a new currency to buy higher powered gear. You chase stat inflation with laurels. You grind to get them. That’s why you now see ‘grind’ in connection with dailies. It’s impossible for people to miss it even if they don’t fully understand where it’s coming from, i.e., vertical progression. Grind and Guild Wars really don’t go well together and that’s why players notice it and complain about it.
Jesus. People on these forums really like to twist their definition of “grind” to suit their complaints. Contrary to belief grind does not mean solely a repetition of tasks (in regards to MMORPGS).
First of all Ascended gear. Something that Anet was planning from the start. This theory crafting on what WILL be rather than what IS is useless. We don’t know how big of an increase they’ll be. If there’ll be even more ways to get them when the other pieces are released. So CURRENTLY ascended gear is optional. Isn’t this game supposed to about skill? That’s what people kept saying. Now that there is gear that adds what…6 stat points (correct me if I’m wrong) we’ll lose all the time? If that 6 stat points are the defining factor to winning or losing…then maybe you should work on your skill a bit more. If fractals and dailies are too hard/too long/too whatever, how would you like to get them?
Now onto laurels. We have a way to get ascended with the absolute minimal amount of effort needed. Seriously. If you are so casual you can’t spend the 30 min (tops) needed for the dailies and a month isn’t long enough to do the monthly…then why do you even need ascended? If you play so little you can’t put in such a minimal amount of effort for the gear then what use would it even be for you? Unfortunately just wanting it isn’t a good enough reason. Now if the dailies are making you do something you don’t want to do, I have to ask…what do you want to do? So far the dailies I’ve seen are things that you’d complete just by playing (except maybe the crafting, but making 10 ingots is so incredibly easy).
In closing…please for the love of God. Read this before saying who “grindy” this game is.
Thanks for link. I have a very broad definition of ‘grinding’ born of years of gaming. To me it’s simply performing actions in game to move in the direction of a desired goal. Though the term has a generally negative connotation in terms of it’s etymology, I don’t attach a negative connotation to it.
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
(edited by Raine.1394)
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
We’ve discussed this elsewhere, and while I’m not convinced any of us have much to gain from further discussion, I’ve a few minutes to kill before I have to head out.
I’ve bolded a specific sentence in your quote that acts as a fairly significant statement against vertical progression. I’m not about to suggest that it’s wrong – I’m sure that it applies enough to you to make it worth stating. However, I’d suggest that by boiling down what can be a complex issue into such a simple statement, you’re losing or removing the value. This is important when considering that it forms a crux of your argument.
You acknowledge that implementation is important when it comes to progression – I’d argue this applies as much to horizontal progression as vertical alone, but the distinct statistical associations of vertical tend to give it more weight. It’s harder to justify alienating players when it comes to simply allowing them to enjoy the game on a basic level, as vertical progression threatens to do, than restricting subjective horizontal content. In this case, however, the key word is ‘threaten’ – alienation is not yet truly in place, but the possibility is there. It’s a thing that could happen based on evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. However what threatens you does not necessarily threaten me, and just as I’m wrong in stating that everyone shouldn’t feel threatened, I can’t see how people are justified in stating that everyone should be, because our experiences in-game and the time we all spend are drastically different.
I’ve chosen to remove myself from the equation by not chasing Ascended gear. This is based on a reasonable estimation as to how long it would take me to gain from time spent gathering the items I need against the game time I have available. It’s not a protest – if I incidentally pick up gear during my usual play, I’m happy with that. Despite this, I do not feel alienated in my game time – I do not play to be, or remain statistically competitive, and this is entirely personal. If the danger of vertical progression is the threat of a non-optional grind, I currently consider it a groundless threat. For some, it may not be. Stating either as fact isn’t accurate. Your reliance on the use of a ‘mandatory gear grind’ to define vertical progression in negative connotations is open to criticism based on people’s playstyles and their goals. Even considering that a lot of mandatory actions in this game can be found enjoyable or satisfying tends to undermine this, just as non-mandatory actions can be irritating or unsatisfying.
Even if vertical progression, by your definition, was implemented on 15/11, that does not invalidate the content already enjoyed by many. Provided that one can still enjoy this content and more on a base level regardless of their tier of gear, it won’t. But the issue here is that what someone enjoys is not so easily defined, particularly when attempting to make simple fairly complex issues.
Behold: Opinions!
(edited by proxy.7963)
Thanks for link. I have a very broad definition of ‘grinding’ born of years of gaming. To me it’s simply performing actions in game to move in the direction of a desired goal. Though the term has a generally negative connotation in terms of it’s etymology, I don’t attach a negative connotation to it.
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
GW2 already has vertical progression. Simply leveling is vertical progression. That’s a non-optional “grind”. There is content you can’t do unless you hit 80. I get that there is a difference between getting to level 80 and a gear treadmill, but it’s incorrect to say there is no vertical progression. What is important is to what degree vertical progression is present. So far in GW2 it has been minimal. While ascended gear is the top, you can still do the content without it. That gear isn’t actually required for anything.
We’re not on a treadmill currently. Anet released their last tier of gear late. We can’t assume that we’re on a treadmill just because of that. That’s pretty absurd. Granted they have said veritcal progression will still be in the game, but we don’t know to what extent. Vertical progression is a part of RPGs though. Whether they be online, console, or even table top. It’s not a bad thing, as long as it’s not what the whole game is about. I think GW2 is at a good middle ground. There are some vertical elements, but still some horizontal. Whether this will change or not in the future…I don’t know. But curretnly, the game as it is, it’s not on a treadmill.
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
We’ve discussed this elsewhere, and while I’m not convinced any of us have much to gain from further discussion, I’ve a few minutes to kill before I have to head out.
I’ve bolded a specific sentence in your quote that acts as a fairly significant statement against vertical progression. I’m not about to suggest that it’s wrong – I’m sure that it applies enough to you to make it worth stating. However, I’d suggest that by boiling down what can be a complex issue into such a simple statement, you’re losing or removing the value. This is important when considering that it forms a crux of your argument.
You acknowledge that implementation is important when it comes to progression – I’d argue this applies as much to horizontal progression as vertical alone, but the distinct statistical associations of vertical tend to give it more weight. It’s harder to justify alienating players when it comes to simply allowing them to enjoy the game on a basic level, as vertical progression threatens to do, than restricting subjective horizontal content. In this case, however, the key word is ‘threaten’ – alienation is not yet truly in place, but the possibility is there. It’s a thing that could happen based on evidence, circumstantial or otherwise. However what threatens you does not necessarily threaten me, and just as I’m wrong in stating that everyone shouldn’t feel threatened, I can’t see how people are justified in stating that everyone should be, because our experiences in-game and the time we all spend are drastically different.
I’ve chosen to remove myself from the equation by not chasing Ascended gear. This is based on a reasonable estimation as to how long it would take me to gain from time spent gathering the items I need against the game time I have available. It’s not a protest – if I incidentally pick up gear during my usual play, I’m happy with that. Despite this, I do not feel alienated in my game time – I do not play to be, or remain statistically competitive, and this is entirely personal. If the danger of vertical progression is the threat of a non-optional grind, I currently consider it a groundless threat. For some, it may not be. Stating either as fact isn’t accurate. Your reliance on the use of a ‘mandatory gear grind’ to define vertical progression in negative connotations is open to criticism based on people’s playstyles and their goals. Even considering that a lot of mandatory actions in this game can be found enjoyable or satisfying tends to undermine this, just as non-mandatory actions can be irritating or unsatisfying.
Even if vertical progression, by your definition, was implemented on 15/11, that does not invalidate the content already enjoyed by many. Provided that one can still enjoy this content and more on a base level regardless of their tier of gear, it won’t. But the issue here is that what someone enjoys is not so easily defined, particularly when attempting to make simple fairly complex issues.
You are correct in your assumption around the crux of my argument. You have bolded the correct statement. However, it has nothing to do with “my” definition of it, it’s simply the generally understood definition of it. Vertical progression is, after all, a common element in gaming and people have been discussing it under some label for years. And, it truly is simple. We are not dealing with a complex issue. We can simply consider it in the context of horizontal vs vertical progression. I ran across a good discussion of the issues a while back. Have a look:
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
Thanks for link. I have a very broad definition of ‘grinding’ born of years of gaming. To me it’s simply performing actions in game to move in the direction of a desired goal. Though the term has a generally negative connotation in terms of it’s etymology, I don’t attach a negative connotation to it.
What I have noticed around grinding is that there are optional and non-optional grinds. And, they come from how you choose to implement a sense of progression in a game. With horizontal progression (pre-11/15) all grinds are optional. With vertical progression (post-11/15) the grind is non-optional. By definition, with vertical progression there will come a point where the choice is do the grind or stop playing the game. It’s the introduction of vertical progression to GW that people are complaining about. Many people have been riding treadmills for years and came to GW2 for promised relief. I was one of those. I did get almost 3 months of relief and I am thankful for those 3 months. I am disappointed with the decision to add a mandatory gear grind to the game.
GW2 already has vertical progression. Simply leveling is vertical progression. That’s a non-optional “grind”. There is content you can’t do unless you hit 80. I get that there is a difference between getting to level 80 and a gear treadmill, but it’s incorrect to say there is no vertical progression. What is important is to what degree vertical progression is present. So far in GW2 it has been minimal. While ascended gear is the top, you can still do the content without it. That gear isn’t actually required for anything.
We’re not on a treadmill currently. Anet released their last tier of gear late. We can’t assume that we’re on a treadmill just because of that. That’s pretty absurd. Granted they have said veritcal progression will still be in the game, but we don’t know to what extent. Vertical progression is a part of RPGs though. Whether they be online, console, or even table top. It’s not a bad thing, as long as it’s not what the whole game is about. I think GW2 is at a good middle ground. There are some vertical elements, but still some horizontal. Whether this will change or not in the future…I don’t know. But curretnly, the game as it is, it’s not on a treadmill.
Yes, the game had vertical progression prior to 11/15 both in terms of leveling and tiers of gear. The distinction around 11/15 was the introduction of vertical progression post max level gear at max level. GW1 had vertical progression too but it stopped at max level. This is what we are talking about. In the AMA Anet confirmed that vertical progression would be in the game going forward.
You are correct that you can have elements of horizontal progression with vertical. The problem is that you can’t have no vertical with vertical. It’s a non-optional gear grind by definition. I’ll post the video link on the distinctions again in case you haven’t seen it.
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
What Anet has done with the new dailies is move the grind from FotM to open world PvE. You are right that no one complained about the grind before with the dailies, but they are now. Think about the intent of laurels. It is a new currency to buy higher powered gear. You chase stat inflation with laurels. You grind to get them. That’s why you now see ‘grind’ in connection with dailies. It’s impossible for people to miss it even if they don’t fully understand where it’s coming from, i.e., vertical progression. Grind and Guild Wars really don’t go well together and that’s why players notice it and complain about it.
If the process of the dailies have not changed (only a bit), then the only thing that makes them a grind now, that they were not before, is player interpretation. Adding additional incentive now makes people think of them as a grind, when nothing has actually changed. People wanted incentives to play, Anet gave them incentives, players get upset and call it a grind. I think if Anet caved and gave everybody a Legendary for logging in, someone on the forums would pipe up and call it a grind.
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
Raine figures that only he/she understands game design and everyone who disagrees with him/her couldn’t possibly understand it on the same level, or else they’d agree.
He/she mistakes his/her limits of vision for the limits of the world.
This is an example of an ad hominem. It usually occurs at the end of debate when one party runs out of intellectual gas and resorts to personal attacks. Let me help you out here. Simply take an assertion that I have made and show me why or how it is wrong. This is how the forum game is played. It’s a lot like ping pong. The balls in your court.
You are correct in your assumption around the crux of my argument. You have bolded the correct statement. However, it has nothing to do with “my” definition of it, it’s simply the generally understood definition of it. Vertical progression is, after all, a common element in gaming and people have been discussing it under some label for years. And, it truly is simple. We are not dealing with a complex issue. We can simply consider it in the context of horizontal vs vertical progression. I ran across a good discussion of the issues a while back. Have a look:
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
I’ve seen that post before, and I appreciate where it’s coming from. However, if the definition you have stated is the accepted definition in the development community, then it is being inappropriately applied to GW2 in the current game. Any vertical progression introduced via the Ascended gear is not currently mandatory, and while you might have fears that this will develop over time into something unavoidable, it’s still inaccurate to say that this is the current status of the game. If any vertical progression is considered non-mandatory (thus undermining the definition) then people are free to do as they like – chase horizontal goals for aesthetics, or vertical for efficiency.
Taking quotes for issues related to vertical progression directly from the link:
Vertical Progression Criticism
1) It’s grindy
2) It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3) It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4) It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content
1) It may be ‘grindy’, but we seem to agree that a grind has both positive and negative connotations, depending on who you ask, so this need not be a negative thing. Furthermore, there are plenty of instances of horizontal grind in the game (Dungeon armours and Cultural armours being two). A grind need not be unenjoyable, and much of that is down to personal preference;
2) I’ve previously said that I and others can enjoy all of the content in the current game without investing in Ascended gear provided that we acknowledge the statistical imbalance between those on the lower and higher ends of the gear spectrum. This is an issue with what we value in our games and how we define our enjoyment – there are no instances of simply being unable to take part in anything in the game based on not having Ascended gear. It may become easier with it, but that is not the same thing;
3) This is not currently something we see in-game. I do not define higher level Fractals as ‘content’, as they’re based on repetition of content that anyone can enjoy. This is a potential issue, but not a current one;
4) Dead Zones are the result of many design choices, leveling, basic content and the drive towards player time vs reward efficiency being key amongst them.
Behold: Opinions!
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
What Anet has done with the new dailies is move the grind from FotM to open world PvE. You are right that no one complained about the grind before with the dailies, but they are now. Think about the intent of laurels. It is a new currency to buy higher powered gear. You chase stat inflation with laurels. You grind to get them. That’s why you now see ‘grind’ in connection with dailies. It’s impossible for people to miss it even if they don’t fully understand where it’s coming from, i.e., vertical progression. Grind and Guild Wars really don’t go well together and that’s why players notice it and complain about it.
If the process of the dailies have not changed (only a bit), then the only thing that makes them a grind now, that they were not before, is player interpretation. Adding additional incentive now makes people think of them as a grind, when nothing has actually changed. People wanted incentives to play, Anet gave them incentives, players get upset and call it a grind. I think if Anet caved and gave everybody a Legendary for logging in, someone on the forums would pipe up and call it a grind.
It might be helpful to define grind. From your usage I take it that you attach a negative connotation to it and its etymology justifies this usage. It was originally associated with ‘work’ and generally carries a negative connotation with it. I actually have a neutral understanding of ‘grind’ and define it as simply performing actions in pursuit of a desired goal. I may dislike aspects of any given grind, but I generally enjoy grinding.
The only distinction I make around grinds is that there are optional grinds and non-optional grinds. In horizontal progression all grinds are optional. In vertical progression, because we are talking about the increasing power level of the game, the grind is non-optional. I do attach a negative connotation to non-optional grinds and therefore favor horizontal over vertical progression.
In terms of the dailies, this is what I was getting at. We didn’t need a new currency; we have more than enough of those already. The whole reward structure was created to move the gear grind out of FotM and into the open world. People complaining about a grind associated with the dailies most likely are just realizing that it is a non-optional gear grind.
It’s fine to like vertical progression. For many it’s a good fit and it does give them a sense of progression in a game. Other players prefer horizontal and many bought GW2 due to the absence of a non-optional grind. Once you’ve made it through to an understanding of horizontal vs vertical, the matter is largely personal preference from that point on.
Were people doing dailys before? yes. Were there umpteen billion posts saying dailys were a grind before the introduction of laurels? No. But now that you can actually get something for playing exactly like you did before its a grind?
You don’t play exactly as you did before the new dailies. With the new dailies you play for the new dailies. If you don’t you won’t achieve them. That’s pretty straightforward.
I don’t. I play the new dailies so as to get the new dailies. The old dailies were largely a product of of just playing the game…as it should be.
I play the game exactly as I did before. I did my dailys before everyday for the karma and 5 silver. They want to give me laurels now? Great. It didn’t make the dailys more of a grind, it’s the exact same process (well different process now, which was sorta stupid) takes 15 minutes to half hour. It added no grind, except in your own mind.yes, you are playing the new dailies for the new dailies not as a byproduct of simply playing the game. That is actually a statement of the problem with the new dailies, but you would have to understand gaming and reward to know the difference.
I find it amusing that you know why I do something better than I do. Game theory and skinner boxes are also pretty easy to understand, even for laymen, which you assume me to be. Perhaps you should enlighten the rest of the class with your wondrous knowledge of why we are all now doing something for a totally different reason than we were before. Hint…we have always done it for reward.
and what is up with the misquotes, I never even said half the stuff that is in those quotes
Raine figures that only he/she understands game design and everyone who disagrees with him/her couldn’t possibly understand it on the same level, or else they’d agree.
He/she mistakes his/her limits of vision for the limits of the world.
This is an example of an ad hominem. It usually occurs at the end of debate when one party runs out of intellectual gas and resorts to personal attacks. Let me help you out here. Simply take an assertion that I have made and show me why or how it is wrong. This is how the forum game is played. It’s a lot like ping pong. The balls in your court.
Proxy is doing a fine job of more eloquently stating the arguments that I have had against your severely limited idea of what vertical progression can and can’t be.
If you need more posts on why I think you’re wrong, please read my post history.
My statement was based on your attitude around the forum and the fact that you refuse to even consider a position different to your own. Hardly ad hominem.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
It’s grind heavy if you want it to be, simple as that.
Yes, the game had vertical progression prior to 11/15 both in terms of leveling and tiers of gear. The distinction around 11/15 was the introduction of vertical progression post max level gear at max level. GW1 had vertical progression too but it stopped at max level. This is what we are talking about. In the AMA Anet confirmed that vertical progression would be in the game going forward.
You are correct that you can have elements of horizontal progression with vertical. The problem is that you can’t have no vertical with vertical. It’s a non-optional gear grind by definition. I’ll post the video link on the distinctions again in case you haven’t seen it.
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
I understand the distinction. That’s why I specifically stated that Anet said this was a tier they originally planned. It was added in late. If this tier was with the game originally there would be no discussion. So we’re basing this entire discussion Anets poor decision to not include the final tier (which they have also said it would be).
I understand people’s concerns about vertical progression, but unless we have more details on HOW they will implement vertical progression any speculation is just crying wolf. I’ll also repeat again, at this point in the game ascended gear is NOT A REQUIRMENT. You can complete all content with exotics (or even lower tiers). Ascended gear, at this point in time, is completely optional If that will change, and to what extent it will isn’t known yet.
I have seen that post, and while he brings up good points, I don’t think this applies to GW2 (and I have other issues with his points).
His first point is that it’s grindy (again, wrong usage of the word). If we look at legendaries in GW2. They are considered a grind. They are not better than the current exotics. Nor are they a requirement for anything (except the achievement). Yet we still consider them a grind. Grindy things exist in horizontal progression.
Next he talks about creating brackets (in his words, “You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close”). There will always be a difference between someone at level 1 and 80. Leveling is one the easiest way to show character development. There are other ways to do it, like say gaining stats through completing missions/events/etc., but that is a core element (character development) in many, if not all, RPGs. There will always be a power difference between a new player, and old player. If that is something people do not like, then I honestly don’t think RPGs are their thing. Now gear wise, I do think GW2 has a fairly decent system to address this. You can’t scale up (in world zones), but others can scale down.
Now he talks about power creep. I don’t feel power creep is entirely a bad thing. Again, a large part of RPGs (besides the role-playing lol) is getting stronger. I also think GW2 handled this well with scaling. While at level 80 with exotics you are stronger, you are not so strong that content is trivial. This is seen mainly with dungeons, but it also present in world zones.
Lastly he mentions dead zones. Again, level scaling is a good way to address this. Also the new dailies people seem to hate so much (you mean I have to go do things in the world?! – GW2 forums). For a system to give people a reason to visit world zones you’d think this would be more liked. Especially with the cries of vertical progression being evil.
INB4 calling me a “white knight/fanboy” If it seems like I’ve only talked about GW2 a lot, it’s because that is the game that is relevant to the discussion (see title).
You are correct in your assumption around the crux of my argument. You have bolded the correct statement. However, it has nothing to do with “my” definition of it, it’s simply the generally understood definition of it. Vertical progression is, after all, a common element in gaming and people have been discussing it under some label for years. And, it truly is simple. We are not dealing with a complex issue. We can simply consider it in the context of horizontal vs vertical progression. I ran across a good discussion of the issues a while back. Have a look:
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
I’ve seen that post before, and I appreciate where it’s coming from. However, if the definition you have stated is the accepted definition in the development community, then it is being inappropriately applied to GW2 in the current game. Any vertical progression introduced via the Ascended gear is not currently mandatory, and while you might have fears that this will develop over time into something unavoidable, it’s still inaccurate to say that this is the current status of the game. If any vertical progression is considered non-mandatory (thus undermining the definition) then people are free to do as they like – chase horizontal goals for aesthetics, or vertical for efficiency.
Taking quotes for issues related to vertical progression directly from the link:
Vertical Progression Criticism
1) It’s grindy
2) It creates brackets. You can’t do content with other players unless your character levels / gear scores are sufficiently close
3) It causes power creep. Content is initially too difficult, but once players obtain the gear to do the content, it becomes progressively less difficult until it’s trivial
4) It creates dead zones and content. This happens when the bulk of active characters are at level cap and whenever expansions are released with new content1) It may be ‘grindy’, but we seem to agree that a grind has both positive and negative connotations, depending on who you ask, so this need not be a negative thing. Furthermore, there are plenty of instances of horizontal grind in the game (Dungeon armours and Cultural armours being two). A grind need not be unenjoyable, and much of that is down to personal preference;
2) I’ve previously said that I and others can enjoy all of the content in the current game without investing in Ascended gear provided that we acknowledge the statistical imbalance between those on the lower and higher ends of the gear spectrum. This is an issue with what we value in our games and how we define our enjoyment – there are no instances of simply being unable to take part in anything in the game based on not having Ascended gear. It may become easier with it, but that is not the same thing;
3) This is not currently something we see in-game. I do not define higher level Fractals as ‘content’, as they’re based on repetition of content that anyone can enjoy. This is a potential issue, but not a current one;
4) Dead Zones are the result of many design choices, leveling, basic content and the drive towards player time vs reward efficiency being key amongst them.
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Behold: Opinions!
(edited by proxy.7963)
I can’t argue against the fact that if there is a vertical tier, people will want to move up it. It’s part of human nature. I enjoy having a plateau, a vertical climb to a constant. The introduction of Ascended was and still is controversial to some players, I found it so as well when it was introduced.
The strict definition of grind is objective and can be summarized by just saying any repetitive action an individual finds onerous. But what actions are actually a “grind” are subjective. I can not see the daily as becoming a grind in and of itself simply by adding a greater reward to it. In your opinion, if they had added 50 silver to the daily, would it have become a grind? or is it simply because now you have to associate it with an in game mechanic you may take offense to? Both would be examples of vertical progression, one in terms of gear, the other in terms of gold (which could also be gear).
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
Except Anet stated this was the last tier. So there is no if. I will humor you though (even if the question was not directed at me), and say the point where it would be mandatory is when you can’t do content because of gear. Not having ascended does not impede your ability to do the content, so I have zero issue with it.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
If the curve is shallow , wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
Every dungeon in this game, can be completed with exotics at least, certainly without ascended. I know this because I’ve completed just about all of them. And that’s mostly without any exotic jewelry or backpiece at all. Only my armor is exotic. I’ve done it on an engineer and a mesmer. I have people in my guild who’ve done it on every profession,. including thieves. And since no one in my guild has ascended gear (we don’t really grind the fractals), it’s definitely possible to play this game and win without having ascended gear at all.
Not to say having ascended gear won’t make the game 1% easier (or some percent easier). It’s simply not necessary.
In Guild Wars 1, I beat just about everything without ever using a con set (which are buffs). Doesn’t mean a con set wouldn’t have made it easier, but it wasn’t necessary. Some things were really tough without them, but everything could be beaten.
But this difference we’re talking about here isn’t a con set. It’s a tiny advantage that might get you through a dungeon 1 minute faster if that.
You don’t need this gear. In other games, content is gated. You can’t queue for a dungeon in Rift with a caster if your focus isn’t at least X. That’s it. Can’t use their group finder to queue for a dungeon. It won’t let you. That’s content gating. So you have to grind for gear to get your focus higher (or your to hit if you’re a rogue or your toughness if you’re a tank).
In Guild Wars 2, all the content is viable without ascended gear, and all your builds will function without it. And if you try a build and like it, you can then later decide to save laurels for the rings.
And that’s assuming they don’t introduce other ways to get laurals.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
If the curve is shallow , wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?
No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
Except Anet stated this was the last tier. So there is no if. I will humor you though (even if the question was not directed at me), and say the point where it would be mandatory is when you can’t do content because of gear. Not having ascended does not impede your ability to do the content, so I have zero issue with it.
I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.
There’s no required grind in guild wars 2.
I wish I had what you are taking cause it looks fantastic. Probably the same things the game devs are taking as well.
Denial and subterfuge will not change the fact that there is mandatory gear grind in this game. And it aint even and easy grind it is in fact a hard melicous and not needed.
I also dont believe anything they say especially after Nov 15 and how fast they changed.
They dont seem to be experimenting anything – they seem to be hod podging and slapping things together under the guise of making things better all the while not having a clue/direction at what they are doing.
The one think I do think they understand is that they need to keep players poor and force them to buy gems. It seems that is their strategy and the play your way stuff is marketing.
It is easy to see how off putting this whole thing has been and lack of direction especially HP. The pop has crashed worse than bioware and everything anet says now is second guessed.
I really hope the right the ship but from the track record I doubt it very much and the fact that ESO is still a huge topic in my guild says it all.
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
Except Anet stated this was the last tier. So there is no if. I will humor you though (even if the question was not directed at me), and say the point where it would be mandatory is when you can’t do content because of gear. Not having ascended does not impede your ability to do the content, so I have zero issue with it.
I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.
Lol Hate to kill it but there will be many tiers after ascend. Chris W and Colin J both stated that into the future you can never tell. – I take that as many more tiers.
And yes I agree HP should have been the focus all the way.
And no it wasnt added late/start of game. Do you believe everything they tell you? It was a direct response to the crowd of we have nothing to do. That is why is slapped together so fast without thinking through the implications.
If that were true things would look a lot different not to mention all those fan sites would mention the possibility of ascend and infusion ect. It was a last min decision and a greedy money grab to keep people around and playing over those who wanted what they originally promised. It backfired anet lost those they tried to keep – lost those who originally purchased it under the promise and poisoned the well.
(edited by Narkosys.5173)
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
If the curve is shallow, wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?
No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.
Care to illustrate how the answer is no? Because the way I’m seeing the power curve, the point where the top tier now will become mandatory to continue playing is on the scale of years.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
Ascended gear was never an issue for me, per se, and the stat increase from the initially released pieces don’t mandate that I get them to be able to play the game on a par with other players that have them. But, they are simply the initial pieces. Vertical progression doesn’t progress by stopping. It gives players a sense of progression by progressing. That’s why you choose to add it to a game. And it progresses by periodically raising the power level of the game. This is what causes it to seem grindy; you know you must grind to keep up with the increasing power level of the game.
Arguing from the stat inflation of the initial Ascended items doesn’t really engage with grind issue that comes with vertical progression. I do find the argument that they are insignificant amusing though. It’s the first time I’ve seen the defense of a new game element based on its insignificance.
If you enjoyed the content of the game before the announcement of vertical progression, and you admit that the current status of the game does not mean that you are required to gain the items you associate with vertical progression to play on par with other players, I don’t fully appreciate the loss of faith in the design team. If they constructed an enjoyable game, there’s a substantial chance that they will be able to implement vertical progression in a baseline enjoyable manner regardless of our current associations with the term. And if they add new gear without making it mandatory, then both of us can continue playing (provided that you still do?) without it effecting us severely, as can others who feel the same.
I’m fine with logical arguments against vertical progression. I’m less comfortable with it being treated as a fall guy for developer decisions that simply don’t support what people personally find to be interesting in a game, on a purely subjective level, or that is used to give weight to people’s fears of the unknown.
And I never said that the Ascended gear stat bonuses were insignificant, though it could be argued that I said they’re insignificant to me. That remains true. As I’ve said, I’m more than comfortable for people to have a different opinion provided that they respect the relative significance of my own.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
Except Anet stated this was the last tier. So there is no if. I will humor you though (even if the question was not directed at me), and say the point where it would be mandatory is when you can’t do content because of gear. Not having ascended does not impede your ability to do the content, so I have zero issue with it.
I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.
Lol Hate to kill it but there will be many tiers after ascend. Chris W and Colin J both stated that into the future you can never tell. – I take that as many more tiers.
And yes I agree HP should have been the focus all the way.
Yeah, I know, but I was hoping to see the panic when she discovered that what they actually promised was vertical progression. And, as we know, it doesn’t progress by stopping.
Laurels, dungeons skins, etc. are not grinds. Why? Because ArenaNet is trying their hardest to make sure you don’t grind them.
Thank you! It’s nice to finally see a well-composed post here outlining how the game isn’t grindy, after a flood of posts nonsensically complaining about too much grind.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
That depends on what the scouter says about its power level.
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
No, though depending on the following being met to some degree (though not all need be met, depending on the severity that some are ignored);
1) If the curve was shallow enough to be unnoticeable during my current style of play (which the progression from White -> Exotic has largely been for me);
2) If this gear did not restrict my access to content I enjoy, nor fundamentally restrict others from enjoying theirs;
3) If the community’s drive towards efficiency does not become aggressive. I try and act in a way that I would like to be treated, and I accept that there will always be a drive towards efficiency that I will always find off-putting (which is why I tend not to do dungeons, but that’s another story). I tend to believe that while game mechanics can encourage certain behaviours, there is a point where people should be self-aware enough to mitigate and manage their actions, and this is very strongly influenced by the greater community being able to moderate themselves. It happens;
4) If skipping tiers was compatible with my playstyle and resources, therefore avoiding locking me into a route from 1 -> 2 -> 3 instead of 1 -> 3.
Anyway, I don’t want to this turn into ‘Raine vs. Proxy: Another Thread About Two People’s Opinions Over Vertical Progression’. I think I’ve said my bit, so I’ll shut up now and stop barfing words everywhere. I don’t even fundamentally disagree with you, Raine – the problem is that I just think we’re looking at this thing from different perspectives and not managing to make our feelings meet in the middle. And if true, then that’s a shame.
Behold: Opinions!
(edited by proxy.7963)
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
If the curve is shallow, wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?
No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.
Care to illustrate how the answer is no? Because the way I’m seeing the power curve, the point where the top tier now will become mandatory to continue playing is on the scale of years.
Gladly, a slow grind doesn’t make the question irrelevant, it just means it will take longer to realize. We truly don’t know the scale at this point and you don’t need a scale to answer the question. Can you answer it honestly?
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
No, though depending on the following being met to some degree (though not all need be met, depending on the severity that some are ignored);
1) If the curve was shallow enough to be unnoticeable during my current style of play (which the progression from White -> Exotic has largely been for me);
2) If this gear did not restrict my access to content I enjoy, nor fundamentally restrict others from enjoying theirs;
3) If the community’s drive towards efficiency does not become aggressive. I try and act in a way that I would like to be treated, and I accept that there will always be a drive towards efficiency that I will always find off-putting (which is why I tend not to do dungeons, but that’s another story). I tend to believe that while game mechanics can encourage certain behaviours, there is a point where people should be self-aware enough to mitigate and manage their actions, and this is very strongly influenced by the greater community being able to moderate themselves. It happens;
4) If skipping tiers was compatible with my playstyle and resources, therefore avoiding locking me into a route from 1 -> 2 -> 3 instead of 1 -> 3.Anyway, I don’t want to this turn into ‘Raine vs. Proxy: Another Thread About Two People’s Opinions Over Vertical Progression’. I think I’ve said my bit, so I’ll shut up now and stop barfing words everywhere. I don’t even fundamentally disagree with you, Raine – the problem is that I just think we’re looking at this thing from different perspectives and not managing to make our feelings meet in the middle. And if true, then that’s a shame.
Well, I don’t think it’s always possible to meet in the middle when a well-defined issue is on the table so I don’t see that as a failure. To the extent to which we’ve illuminated the issues I would judge the discussion a success. I think I’ve had enough on this thread as well. Anything more would just be repetition at this point. Cheers.
It only becomes a grind to the players whose mindset is they must have the best right now. If you take the game in the context of playing for several years, there is no grind…just the game. And along the way, you collect the stuff you want or need…or not.
PF/ GOAT on Tarnished Coast (Semi-Retired)
Raf Longshanks-80 Norn Guardian / 9 more alts of various lvls / Charter Member Altaholics Anon
Raf Longshanks-80 Norn Guardian / 9 more alts of various lvls / Charter Member Altaholics Anon
Let me ask you a question. If they kept adding gear with a higher power level than the power level of the current gear, would there come a point where you would feel it was mandatory to acquire the new gear?
If the curve is shallow, wouldn’t that point be so far away that it would become irrelevant?
No, and the question is a simple one. And, if answered honestly, will solve the problem of understanding vertical progression and it’s impact on the game.
Care to illustrate how the answer is no? Because the way I’m seeing the power curve, the point where the top tier now will become mandatory to continue playing is on the scale of years.
Gladly, a slow grind doesn’t make the question irrelevant, it just means it will take longer to realize. We truly don’t know the scale at this point and you don’t need a scale to answer the question. Can you answer it honestly?
The answer is yes, but you have to be honest that if that point takes years to reach, and that point is moving in step with the gear curve, you will never actually reach that point unless you stop playing the game entirely.
If your point is vertical progression hurts people who aren’t playing the game for years at a time, you’re right, but no one’s arguing that fact.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.
Ahh, it would seem my memory of the quote was definitely incorrect. They stated there would be no new tiers at this time. This does changes things, slightly. Though I still feel we need more information before crying that the sky is falling. Is this a new tier every year? Every two?
Lol Hate to kill it but there will be many tiers after ascend. Chris W and Colin J both stated that into the future you can never tell. – I take that as many more tiers.
And yes I agree HP should have been the focus all the way.And no it wasnt added late/start of game. Do you believe everything they tell you? It was a direct response to the crowd of we have nothing to do. That is why is slapped together so fast without thinking through the implications.
If that were true things would look a lot different not to mention all those fan sites would mention the possibility of ascend and infusion ect. It was a last min decision and a greedy money grab to keep people around and playing over those who wanted what they originally promised. It backfired anet lost those they tried to keep – lost those who originally purchased it under the promise and poisoned the well.
That’s fine if you take it that way, but that’s jumping the gun. Saying new tiers does not mean we’ll have a new tier every month.
Do I take the word of the devs more than the cries of an angsty forum group? Yes. I know people like to think game devs are big evil lying money grubbing monsters out to ruin your game (though arguably it’s theirs). Maybe, just maybe, they aren’t lying. I know…it’s a crazy thought. I’m not going to say they handled Ascended well because they truly didn’t. It should never have been released so incomplete. I am curious how they lied to those who bought the game? As it is, there is no gear treadmill. There is no grinding. Regardless of how much people like to think there is. I don’t know if this will change in the future (unfortunately I lack the ability to see into the future).
I play for fun.
If i come accross an item my friend found that can make you 51g per like 2 hours i’ll worry bout money and legendaries then.
The debate between progression types actually ended up being a really enjoyable read, though a lot of it focused on the additional tier of gear and the fact it exists, instead of the method to acquire. I’ve mostly come to terms with the new tier because, yes you don’t have to get the gear, but you can also run in full rares and do content just fine. I’d rather have my shiny things to beat people up in WvW with my guild. Every edge helps the war effort!
The major difference between exotics as a gear ceiling and ascended as a gear ceiling is availability. I don’t mean how common they are or how hard they are to get, but instead how many avenues exist to reach your goal. You can buy exotics through karma, gold, dungeons, WvW tokens, crafting, and drops. If you hit the dungeon time gate, you can go do events for karma and gold until you hit those time gates. Even though time gates exist on methods to acquire exotics, you can easily find a different way. Even if you were disallowed to buy them with gold, you can buy a piece with karma, another with dungeon tokens, and another with WvW tokens. There was always another way to progress towards exotic gear, even if you had already run your daily dungeons.
As of right now, if you hit that time gate, there is no alternative path to progress towards you goal. When people run out of ways to make progress towards something, the complaints begin. The only thing worst than being disallowed from making anymore progress because the game says so, is having no way to progress at all (the problem with precursors and fractal weapons at the moment).
Those who play the game extensively WILL run out of things to do because they will hit the time gates on every activity they want to do. And this is because Anet created an artificial barrier in their attempts to eliminate farming.
Their response to players having nothing to do was to add a new dungeon that… added another time gate with a heavy dose of the RNG everyone dislikes. It just happens that it coincided with their introduction of a new gear tier.
The thing is: people will always grind, and designing mechanics whose intention is to keep people from “grinding” end up backfiring more often than not.
Ask FF14 how popular their “fatigue system” was with the MMO crowd.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
I’d love to see that quote as if they had said that then I’d be out of the forums and into the game in a heartbeat. Please post the link to this statement by Anet.
Ahh, it would seem my memory of the quote was definitely incorrect. They stated there would be no new tiers at this time. This does changes things, slightly. Though I still feel we need more information before crying that the sky is falling. Is this a new tier every year? Every two?
Lol Hate to kill it but there will be many tiers after ascend. Chris W and Colin J both stated that into the future you can never tell. – I take that as many more tiers.
And yes I agree HP should have been the focus all the way.And no it wasnt added late/start of game. Do you believe everything they tell you? It was a direct response to the crowd of we have nothing to do. That is why is slapped together so fast without thinking through the implications.
If that were true things would look a lot different not to mention all those fan sites would mention the possibility of ascend and infusion ect. It was a last min decision and a greedy money grab to keep people around and playing over those who wanted what they originally promised. It backfired anet lost those they tried to keep – lost those who originally purchased it under the promise and poisoned the well.
That’s fine if you take it that way, but that’s jumping the gun. Saying new tiers does not mean we’ll have a new tier every month.
Do I take the word of the devs more than the cries of an angsty forum group? Yes. I know people like to think game devs are big evil lying money grubbing monsters out to ruin your game (though arguably it’s theirs). Maybe, just maybe, they aren’t lying. I know…it’s a crazy thought. I’m not going to say they handled Ascended well because they truly didn’t. It should never have been released so incomplete. I am curious how they lied to those who bought the game? As it is, there is no gear treadmill. There is no grinding. Regardless of how much people like to think there is. I don’t know if this will change in the future (unfortunately I lack the ability to see into the future).
I understand your point.
I however believed the things they said 8 months prior to launch and all the good things they did like naming Rall.
However they so eagerly threw the design philosophy under the bus so easily and consecutive changes to the game I have lost all faith in them and most of their decisions have been on the bioware side of decision making. I dont believe them nor do I believe what they say anymore. I also think all decision are led by one factor and that is money above all else – even to the point that they would rather loose player and refund people than make the game enjoyable for some players.
Just how I see it is all. It all started Nov 15.
You are correct in your assumption around the crux of my argument. You have bolded the correct statement. However, it has nothing to do with “my” definition of it, it’s simply the generally understood definition of it. Vertical progression is, after all, a common element in gaming and people have been discussing it under some label for years. And, it truly is simple. We are not dealing with a complex issue. We can simply consider it in the context of horizontal vs vertical progression. I ran across a good discussion of the issues a while back. Have a look:
http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/
I think there’s some truth to that article.
GW2 = primarily vertical progression
GW1 = primarily horizontal progression
GW2 = a good game that I played for several months
GW1 = a great game that I played for several years
DISCLAIMER: This is all my opinion. Yes, you can have a different opinion. No, I don’t give a flying kitten why your opinion is superior.
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