Guild Wars 2

PopeUrban.2578:

To all the people complaining “we want back what we had” …

Hey, I’m all fine with repairing broken stuff. I’m fine with change. I’m fine with all the stuff they reworked and added for guilds.

What I am not ok, is that ANet repaired something I had on Core and put it behind HoT purchase. They took content from Core, reworked it into the new system and restricted it with HoT.

ANet is reselling content and mechanics that already existed to their players. Yes, they modified those contents and mechanics, but they are still reselling the same stuff back to us.

Thank god I’m not a huge Fractal fan, because those guys lost way more than I did.

Paavotar.3971:

PopeUrban.2578:

To all the people complaining “we want back what we had” …

Hey, I’m all fine with repairing broken stuff. I’m fine with change. I’m fine with all the stuff they reworked and added for guilds.

What I am not ok, is that ANet repaired something I had on Core and put it behind HoT purchase. They took content from Core, reworked it into the new system and restricted it with HoT.

ANet is reselling content and mechanics that already existed to their players. Yes, they modified those contents and mechanics, but they are still reselling the same stuff back to us.

Thank god I’m not a huge Fractal fan, because those guys lost way more than I did.

You seem like a level headed person, so let me ask you.

If the decision were up to you, how would you retain the balance inherent in the new system, while making it what you’d consider fair?

I mean, if it’s an issue of non-HoT guilds not being able to use HoT buffs, now you’ve got a situation where it’s unfair on the part of guild leaders, as the onus is on them to buy HoT and find 2 or more people to help them claim a hall. It’s then extremely unfair to the HoT players to be saddled with acquiring HoT-Specific account bound materials for upgrades. The alternative is, then, to either make those materials tradable, and thus TP fodder, which breaks the entire design of things like map currencies in HoT.

The only alternative, as I see it, would be implementing some sort of core guild hall that only required core materials. In which case, HoT becomes useless in terms of guild hall progression. Just use the core hall, then move to HoT. They then need to fork the upgrade requirements for both halls every time they add new ones, and then fork it again with the next expansion, and so on, which quickly becomes an unneccessary mire of unneeded content equivalency, and stagnates content in large chunks by making its rewards redundant or unneccessary.

Masteries are another thing entirely. I’ll agree that the fractal masteries are strange but what’s the real alternative here? leave the old reward system intact and suddenly you’re looking at HoT players having access to extra fractal levels, and, presumably, even better rewards. The result ends up being the same thing. Fractals are percieved as “paywalled behind HoT for decent rewards.”

All the things people have problems with losing, I can’t see a way to have implemented in HoT’s new balance paradigm without somehow also making HoT redundant, poinless, or actively less rewarding than just playing the same old core stuff. I imagine there were probably some design meeting about this issue and Anet’s staff came to the same conclusion.

I’m interested to hear how you would have attacked the problem.

Wouldn’t keeping existing, core game, elements in place and adding new elements, available to HoT purchasers, be appropriate ?

Expand the system for the expansion rather than contracting the system for those without it.

PopeUrban.2578:

Paavotar.3971:

PopeUrban.2578:

To all the people complaining “we want back what we had” …

Hey, I’m all fine with repairing broken stuff. I’m fine with change. I’m fine with all the stuff they reworked and added for guilds.

What I am not ok, is that ANet repaired something I had on Core and put it behind HoT purchase. They took content from Core, reworked it into the new system and restricted it with HoT.

ANet is reselling content and mechanics that already existed to their players. Yes, they modified those contents and mechanics, but they are still reselling the same stuff back to us.

Thank god I’m not a huge Fractal fan, because those guys lost way more than I did.

You seem like a level headed person, so let me ask you.

If the decision were up to you, how would you retain the balance inherent in the new system, while making it what you’d consider fair?

I mean, if it’s an issue of non-HoT guilds not being able to use HoT buffs, now you’ve got a situation where it’s unfair on the part of guild leaders, as the onus is on them to buy HoT and find 2 or more people to help them claim a hall. It’s then extremely unfair to the HoT players to be saddled with acquiring HoT-Specific account bound materials for upgrades. The alternative is, then, to either make those materials tradable, and thus TP fodder, which breaks the entire design of things like map currencies in HoT.

The only alternative, as I see it, would be implementing some sort of core guild hall that only required core materials. In which case, HoT becomes useless in terms of guild hall progression. Just use the core hall, then move to HoT. They then need to fork the upgrade requirements for both halls every time they add new ones, and then fork it again with the next expansion, and so on, which quickly becomes an unneccessary mire of unneeded content equivalency, and stagnates content in large chunks by making its rewards redundant or unneccessary.

Masteries are another thing entirely. I’ll agree that the fractal masteries are strange but what’s the real alternative here? leave the old reward system intact and suddenly you’re looking at HoT players having access to extra fractal levels, and, presumably, even better rewards. The result ends up being the same thing. Fractals are percieved as “paywalled behind HoT for decent rewards.”

All the things people have problems with losing, I can’t see a way to have implemented in HoT’s new balance paradigm without somehow also making HoT redundant, poinless, or actively less rewarding than just playing the same old core stuff. I imagine there were probably some design meeting about this issue and Anet’s staff came to the same conclusion.

I’m interested to hear how you would have attacked the problem.

Well one way could have been if they added a Tyrian Guild Hall, free for Core as well. It would have been a basic guild hall, with roughly the upgrades and stuff guilds already had. So you could have upgraded so you had the basic buffs, the basic wvw stuff, etc in it.

This would have skewed the upgrade trees a bit, as some of the old upgrades need some of the new upgrades first etc. And this would have required a lot more planning in the upgrade trees overall so that basic upgrades and advanced (the HoT guild halls) would go hand by hand in some relatively intelligent way.

The problem in this would be that then Guild Halls wouldn’t be HoT restricted and ANet would lose a selling point for the expansion, I get that and some of the HoT players could maybe feel bit offended as they bought HoT and yet the Core gets the Guild Halls for free.

Also, it would be nice if Core players could at least be able to claim the buffs. As it is right now it doesn’t matter if my guild has the buffs unlocked as I am not able to claim them for my characters even though I can get into Guild Hall. The NPC giving the buffs just tells me to beat it with the text “You need Heart of Thornes expansion”

I know and understand this is a hard thing to solve as it is right now. I’m just upset that I lost something I already had. The things are not big I lost, but changes like this just feel like we are going backwards in the development when it comes to Core game. I’m afraid that they slowly degrade my core game into free2play account by restricting me from basic mechanics I once had.

First, they nuke dungeon loot. Second, fractal loot isn’t as good unless you have fractal mastery, and now guild boons are not available to core-game only players. It is really pathetic on the part of Anet to coerce players to buy HoT. Guild halls are great and all but they have turned guilds into a gigantic gold and material sink. Seems like very cynical decisions by the developers.

PopeUrban.2578:

Firebaall.5127:

What we should really be complaining about….something that I haven’t seen anybody mention:

The new guild buffs can only be used one at a time. You have to choose which buff is active. That’s a huge nerf.

It’s also completely intentional.

The old system was a constant influence sink to keep up buffs. It’s major problem was that it was trivial to maintain for large guilds, and impossible to maintain for small guilds.

The new system is a front loaded cost, but once it is paid it’s done. This makes it a more accessible system for guilds of all sizes. large guilds may get the upgrades done sooner, but small guilds that take a little longer still have the same access to those buffs.

The old system was initially designed so that you couldn’t afford to have everything at once due to the ongoing costs, but the design was kind of broken by large guilds. The new system is much closer to the intent of the design, while making it more accessible and customizable for all guilds and their members.

The entire guild system revamp was done to reward players tackling economic and content challenges together in a way that’s compelling for guilds of all sizes, and rewards them well. The influence system, and by extension the old buff and banner acquisition model was funkitten tally broken specifically because past certain point as your guild grew, they didn’t just become easier to get. They became essentially free due to all the login and passive inf from people just playing the game, even if every one of them was playing completely alone all the time. meanwhile smaller guilds under the old system could play together every day and still get nowhere near the amount of benefit from their guild.

As for non-HoT players not being able to access HoT services. Honestly, guild halls are part of the expansion. I’m suprised they let those players donate to the treasury or enter the hall in the first place. It’s a buy to play game. It’s not unreasonable to expect that people buy the occasional “required” expansion to gain the lion’s share of content and benefits when that means there are not monthly fees or seemingly “required” cash shop items.

The more you give away for free, the less expansion revenue is gained, and you have to make that money somewhere, which in turn means pushing the gem store much more agressively. The expansion model as a one time equal cost is far more fair to the consumer than predatory and annoying practices like black lion keys to drive revenue.

The people commenting here all bought the game what they had pre HoT (that they paid for) was removed. I’m disgusted when I see HoT players dare to speak about a paying player of GW2 as if they’re a FTP. I hate free to play but I hate when someone who isn’t here free being referred to as a free player. No one is required to ever buy an expansion to be considered a paid player if they bought the core game they’ve paid to be here. The fact Anet gave away what we paid for does not make non HoT owners free players.

Ashen.2907:

Wouldn’t keeping existing, core game, elements in place and adding new elements, available to HoT purchasers, be appropriate ?

Expand the system for the expansion rather than contracting the system for those without it.

The problem here is that the rework of the system is so extensive it’s actually incompatible with the old. They didn’t intend to expand on the influence system because it was flawed. They intended to replace a system of extremely variable cost-per-member enhancements with an ongoing requirement of cost-per-member gain with one higher but fixed costs of a real economic nature that grant permanent unlocks that have zero upkeep costs.

There really wasn’t a way to leave in the old buff system. It was indicative of the massive problems with population imbalance and its effects on the usability of guild upgrades in the old system, and furthermore was incompatible with how buffs scale in the new system. All told you can actually reach higher buff levels in the new system for many things, as all buffs scale up 1% for each new buff acquired, and there are more types of buffs. The tradeoff is that you can only select one at a time, but they don’t cost anything once you have them.

The banners system, similarly, was redesigned so that banners are more expensive overall in terms of scribing costs.

Where avaliable they grandfathered in the old stuff, and even made a couple of special case implementations like the merchant that lets you trade favor for your old banner and consumable unlocks, but even there you can see the intent of the system is clear. Favor for banners is much more expensive than the old influence costs, specifically because the entire thing was designed to make banners more expensive as they stack with the new, more powerful yet more specialized buffs.

In other places they simply threw out the old system entirely. Guild mission unlock progression is gone. Where previously you had to unlock a metric ton of stuff to get bounties, and then more to unlock treks, and so on, you now just get mission types randomly rolled for you and unlock more mission slots. There was really no way to make the old systems limitations transfer because the overall goal was to make guild missions easier to succeed by making them free to attempt and repeat.

The place most people have a sticking point is the loss of the old buff system or how cheap the banner costs were, but both of those systems were horrible implementations that were prohibitively expensive for small guilds, and practically free for large ones. The new system equalizes the access while scaling the rate of progression. It’s more equitable than the old one, where if you were small and wanted to punch above your weight in influence you had to do so constantly with gold>influence trades. This was extremely problematic long term as if you were a small guild trying to keep up buff levels with a large one, you were dumping literally hundreds of gold a week to influence while the large guild did nothing but have people log in for influence. In the new system you can still punch above your weight in gold>materials, but the difference is that you only have to do it once for most things. The large guild can distribute the cost and get those upgrades faster, sure, same as the old system, but once you’ve hit the same buff level you can actually use the upgrades for free no matter your size.

There was nothing to be gained by extending the old system, as it was massively unfair and actively more hostile to small guilds than the new one.

Old system was massively unfair and more hostile to small guilds than the new one???? I think you got that backwards. Check some of the recent threads about this. I see a lot of smaller guilds complaining about the new system not the old system.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Old system was massively unfair and more hostile to small guilds than the new one???? I think you got that backwards. Check some of the recent threads about this. I see a lot of smaller guilds complaining about the new system not the old system.

Yes, what he means is that once everything is unlocked big and small guilds are equal as there are no upkeep costs. It sure takes smaller guilds a lot longer to unlock everything, but in the end, big and small guilds are equal.

The old system didn’t require you to spend personal loot and gold. If you are a small guild with this system, each member has to take a much greater loot hit than if you are in a big guild. It is a terrible system and really discourages being in a small guild.

Dashingsteel.3410:

The old system didn’t require you to spend personal loot and gold. If you are a small guild with this system, each member has to take a much greater loot hit than if you are in a big guild. It is a terrible system and really discourages being in a small guild.

Actually, the old system only required you to spend personal gold if you were in a small guild as influence gain was directly proportional to the number of people online, and how much they played, wheras the influence costs were not.

In the new system every guild has to dig in to their pockets, and in return every guild gets to use their upgrades permanently.

It doesn’t discourage being in a small guild any more than the old system. If you wanted to advance more quickly as a small guild in the old system, you traded gold for inf. The same is true in the new system, only in stead of inf you’re trading gold for mats.

Nothing has changed aside from the fact that guild upgrades are no longer cost free for some, and super expensive for others. Now they have the same cost for everyone. That is the definition of equality.

The main problem I have is that the players of paid Core game can interact with the Guild Treasury and dump tons of materials, they are doing their part of the work for the guild and they get zero benefit from doing so.

They can change some of the game functionality if they will ( like one boon at time ) , its part of the evolution but removing it entirely is not fair.

All i am asking is the ability of the core game player to interact with the Bartender and get the Guild Boon which was something available for all since August 2012.

PopeUrban.2578:

Ashen.2907:

Wouldn’t keeping existing, core game, elements in place and adding new elements, available to HoT purchasers, be appropriate ?

Expand the system for the expansion rather than contracting the system for those without it.

The problem here is that the rework of the system is so extensive it’s actually incompatible with the old.

Anet had the option of introducing new, for HoT owners, system(s) without taking anything away from the core game. They chose to not do so. Anet created the incompatibility you mention. It was a choice to remove game elements from content that players had already paid for in order to add value to the expansion pack.

In what other industry is it okay for a merchant to remove aspects of a product for which you have paid in order to drive sales of their new product (honest question here. I am at a loss trying to remember any specific examples of this outside of GW2)?

“We have decided to remove the entertainment center from your 2012 SUV, but don’t worry the new 2016 model has a great sound system!”

Ashen, wish I could give a plus 1000 to your post

I think the analogies do more harm than good.

People who bought HoT are getting far more loot, access to more guild mechanics, raids, etc for having HoT. That’s fine, you paid for that content. That’s fair. The point is, if you were in a guild prior, you were active, you contribute, but you don’t own HoT then what do you get? Do you get the same experience you had before? The answer is no.

Now there has been reasoning to say why that answer is no but it still seems that a well thought out reward structure would include ways to accommodate people who still had the base game. What has been consistent through this release is that the reward structures both for loot and for guild rewards have changed due to HoT. In GW1, you lost out on story, skins, and new classes with each new release. However the base game didn’t get lost in transition. That is what happened here.

I think that if people were looking at GW2 expansions like GW1 expansions then they were disappointed and I think they have the right to be disappointed. You can’t say that they got all this “free” content for only 50 bucks when the prior GW1 system allowed you to keep your old content while only paying for more not less.

But to the OP’s point, I think giving guild buffs to all guild members regardless of status is only fair based on the ability of the nonHoT guild members being able to donate to the guild in gold and materials.

Mobott.5908:

vespers.1759:

PyrateSilly.4710:

vespers.1759:

I still haven’t preordered.

Well since the game is already live it’s no wonder you can’t pre-order

HoT isn’t a preorder? You must be “having a blast” in raids… owait… Maybe you’re using a swag new legendary weapon… owait… Maybe you’re playing awesome new WvW features?… owait…

Also on a thread related note, i’m doing map completion and taking bets on whether or not it’ll be locked behind HoT too (and by extension legendary weapon crafting).

Nah, but I am having a blast with my elite spec, and with the new PvE content (and the gliding), and the story, and the Revenant, and so on…

Thank you for proving my point.

Ashen.2907:

In what other industry is it okay for a merchant to remove aspects of a product for which you have paid in order to drive sales of their new product (honest question here. I am at a loss trying to remember any specific examples of this outside of GW2)?

still gaming industry but Playstation 3 removed the ability to dual boot overnight with little to no warning when they pushed up a software update, it removed the functionality that many people had bought the hardware for….

theres precedent for it on a larger scale than gw2, and with little to no repercussions either

Yeah, it would be like removing the ability to wear exotic gear or higher from core/f2p and then making you buy HoT to wear it again. While legal, it is very shady and unethical. They basically removed and nerfed core game mechanics, rebranded it, and then put it into HoT and told people to pay for it.

The more I read about HoT and the “bright” future of Guild Wars 2, the more disgusted I get. Some guys here wrote it perfectly, ArenaNet’s new business model is just gross, shady and pretty disrespectful to their existing customers.

Uuuuuurgh WHY WHY WHY did I spend over 200 euros on this game?? HoT keeps on destroying pretty much everything I loved about GW2. And there are STILL those blind customers everywhere who swallow everything and even defend actions that restrict people who don’t want to pay for and play the expanision, they are being obviously robbed of something they already had before. We have paid lot’s of money on this game too so for FUNs sake, don’t treat us like F2P players! This is not normal. Seriously, how in the world can a few people here still defend such actions? For the love of god, I don’t understand humanity sometimes. This is driving me insane.

Let me pay 50 Euros again and make a private server with a GW2 version of 1 year ago….. that would feel like christmas eve right now

rant over~ I know this post’ll so get infracted again

ShelBlackblood.7826:

The more I read about HoT and the “bright” future of Guild Wars 2, the more disgusted I get. Some guys here wrote it perfectly, ArenaNet’s new business model is just gross, shady and pretty disrespectful to their existing customers.

Uuuuuurgh WHY WHY WHY did I spend over 200 euros on this game?? HoT keeps on destroying pretty much everything I loved about GW2. And there are STILL those blind customers everywhere who swallow everything and even defend actions that restrict people who don’t want to pay for and play the expanision, they are being obviously robbed of something they already had before. We have paid lot’s of money on this game too so for FUNs sake, don’t treat us like F2P players! This is not normal. Seriously, how in the world can a few people here still defend such actions? For the love of god, I don’t understand humanity sometimes. This is driving me insane.

Let me pay 50 Euros again and make a private server with a GW2 version of 1 year ago….. that would feel like christmas eve right now

rant over~ I know this post’ll so get infracted again

Maybe they do it because people like you are willing to spend 200 euros on it anyway.

vespers.1759:

Maybe they do it because people like you are willing to spend 200 euros on it anyway.

Don’t “people like you”-me please ;o

I didn’t buy HoT. Those 200 euros where spend for the main game and the things I loved about it (2nd acc, charslots, afterwards buying all GW1 expansions + 3 hero slots).

How should have I known a year ago how this game would be today? x_X seems like I got taught better now, the hard way though

ShelBlackblood.7826:

vespers.1759:

Maybe they do it because people like you are willing to spend 200 euros on it anyway.

Don’t “people like you”-me please ;o

I didn’t buy HoT. Those 200 euros where spend for the main game and the things I loved about it (2nd acc, charslots, afterwards buying all GW1 expansions + 3 hero slots).

How should have I known a year ago how this game would be today? x_X seems like I got taught better now, the hard way though

Sorry i assumed you bought HoT. My apologies. At this point the only thing we can do is wait. If we buy they have no incentive to change. I’m going to wait and see how raids and content releases go and decide then.

vespers.1759:

ShelBlackblood.7826:

vespers.1759:

Maybe they do it because people like you are willing to spend 200 euros on it anyway.

Don’t “people like you”-me please ;o

I didn’t buy HoT. Those 200 euros where spend for the main game and the things I loved about it (2nd acc, charslots, afterwards buying all GW1 expansions + 3 hero slots).

How should have I known a year ago how this game would be today? x_X seems like I got taught better now, the hard way though

Sorry i assumed you bought HoT. My apologies. At this point the only thing we can do is wait. If we buy they have no incentive to change. I’m going to wait and see how raids and content releases go and decide then.

Don’t worry about it. Sorry if I was a bit edgy before! Actually, I’ve observed quite alot of things about HoT and changes to the core game that were released as well. From the 25+ posts a day I read, I only reply to 1-2 of them, but I DO read alot. It just seems to me that the more we get the know about the “current” Guild Wars 2 (nerfs everywhere, zero responses to many bug-related threads, gold/grind-gating, unfinshed content, narrowing non-HoT players, preferring reddit over their own forum,…), the more I don’t feel like I “want” to buy the expansion anymore. Before I knew all that, my thoughts were like “Let’s wait and see how much content we actually get on release, then buy it” and “How does my favourite game magazine rate the game?”. The first one got answered many times before in the forum and on various blogs (and I don’t like the answers…) and the second one is simply: The magazine’s MMO tester doesn’t want to play HoT -as well-

I will keep on reading the forums. But again, I don’t like most of things I read so far.

PyrateSilly.4710:

So things for buying the expansion that those that don’t buy it don’t get? I am not seeing the problem here ……

It’s not even the same problem since we had all this before HoT. It’s not “new” HoT content.

It sucks and I agree that this is wrong but the guild bonuses arent that big of a deal.

ShelBlackblood.7826:

vespers.1759:

ShelBlackblood.7826:

vespers.1759:

Maybe they do it because people like you are willing to spend 200 euros on it anyway.

Don’t “people like you”-me please ;o

I didn’t buy HoT. Those 200 euros where spend for the main game and the things I loved about it (2nd acc, charslots, afterwards buying all GW1 expansions + 3 hero slots).

How should have I known a year ago how this game would be today? x_X seems like I got taught better now, the hard way though

Sorry i assumed you bought HoT. My apologies. At this point the only thing we can do is wait. If we buy they have no incentive to change. I’m going to wait and see how raids and content releases go and decide then.

Don’t worry about it. Sorry if I was a bit edgy before! Actually, I’ve observed quite alot of things about HoT and changes to the core game that were released as well. From the 25+ posts a day I read, I only reply to 1-2 of them, but I DO read alot. It just seems to me that the more we get the know about the “current” Guild Wars 2 (nerfs everywhere, zero responses to many bug-related threads, gold/grind-gating, unfinshed content, narrowing non-HoT players, preferring reddit over their own forum,…), the more I don’t feel like I “want” to buy the expansion anymore. Before I knew all that, my thoughts were like “Let’s wait and see how much content we actually get on release, then buy it” and “How does my favourite game magazine rate the game?”. The first one got answered many times before in the forum and on various blogs (and I don’t like the answers…) and the second one is simply: The magazine’s MMO tester doesn’t want to play HoT -as well-

I will keep on reading the forums. But again, I don’t like most of things I read so far.

I agree 100% with everything you said. Feels like they’ve given up and shifted to autopilot as the game steadily declines. Minus the art department because they are killing it as always (seems to happen in most MMOs). Even IGN noticed it in their review which is saying something.

It feels like the effort is simply not there and it shows in player population. The majority of my friend’s list came for launch and are already beginning to drift off.

SpyderArachnid.5619:

Ryptel.5196:

That is just literally insane that a company is producing a product and providing incentive for customers to pay money for that product.

I mean, we are all entitled to full access to someone else’s livelihood without paying for it. I have this argument every time I need to fly somewhere and I call a taxi. Since my wife normally drives me to the airport, why should I need to pay for the taxi?

It’s complete elitism and infringes my freedom and needs to stop.

Think before you speak. You missed the entire point.

The boons were available pre-HoT for all players to use. Now they were removed, even if you had them before, you lost access to them. Now you have to buy HoT in order to access something you already had.

I think it was satire.

Stand The Wall.6987:

It sucks and I agree that this is wrong but the guild bonuses arent that big of a deal.

It’s the principle that matters. If they just get away with this without any backslashes like this, there is nothing to stop them from doing the same thing on next paid expansion. Rework something new and slap it behind the new expansion.

bump , is a Dev is reading this thread ? could be cool to have a official explanation why this mechanic was removed from the core game.

Farming Flats.5370:

In the old system we had guild boon for everyone in the guild : 10% bonus XP , Karma , gathering stuff like that …

Today it’s now called ‘’ Guild Enhancement ’’ you get by upgrading your Guild Hall.
You need to talk to the Bartender in the tavern to get the guild boon.

Problem is … this is disabled for non-HoT players. It’s a simple boon .. why such a thing is disabled for non-HoT players ? non-HoT players can’t get guild bonus but there is no problem for them to interact with the Treasury and donate to the guild that’s why I think it has no common sense to lock the guild bonus. Is this is intended ??

If non-HoT players don’t have access to the new stuff like the scribe or the Arena , OK it’s fine and you are right …But i have a problem with the stuff we already had and now you are removing it from non-HoT players.

Guild Bonuses for every member in the guild was part of the core game.
Let the non-HoT players interact with the bartender and get the Guild Enhancements.

reddit discussion :
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3rydkz/guild_boon_disabled_for_nonhot_players/

So far, there are some interesting reflections and answers.

I made the same exact post on reddit. Most people cant get around the fact that many things core players used to have are now gone behind HoT. I was down voted to kitten to say the least. Their response was stop being cheap and buy HoT

Anet, may we have your response on this topic???? You need to fix this. A product should be bought on its merits not through underhanded business tactics.

I wonder if ANet will ever answer if this is intentional that Core players can’t claim buffs or was it unintentional and they will fix this soonish™.

2 words:

cash machine.

Ashen.2907:

PopeUrban.2578:

Ashen.2907:

Wouldn’t keeping existing, core game, elements in place and adding new elements, available to HoT purchasers, be appropriate ?

Expand the system for the expansion rather than contracting the system for those without it.

The problem here is that the rework of the system is so extensive it’s actually incompatible with the old.

Anet had the option of introducing new, for HoT owners, system(s) without taking anything away from the core game. They chose to not do so. Anet created the incompatibility you mention. It was a choice to remove game elements from content that players had already paid for in order to add value to the expansion pack.

In what other industry is it okay for a merchant to remove aspects of a product for which you have paid in order to drive sales of their new product (honest question here. I am at a loss trying to remember any specific examples of this outside of GW2)?

“We have decided to remove the entertainment center from your 2012 SUV, but don’t worry the new 2016 model has a great sound system!”

Alright, I’ll bite.

Explain to me a GW2 in which the old influence style system and the new materials focused system could live side by side without one obviously making the other pointless.

Literally every argument about what people “lost” is an argument founded in this idea that the status quo is somehow slanted in favor of HoT owners.

It isn’t.

In fact, guild that had a ton of upgrades pre-HoT have massively cheaper access to every single upgrade from that system that still exists

The fact is people are upset they can’t stack every single passive buff in the game any more, and that they’re upset guild buffs require HoT to use.

The first point is, quite frankly, just silly. That entire system was redesigned specifically because the old system was too powerful and was nerfed permanently for everyone

The second argument I can see merit in, but I also don’t see any reasonable way to grant access to the new buff system without also tying it to the prerequisite guild hall system. The alternative is taking the entire redesign of guilds as being dependant/centered around the guild hall and throwing it out the window.

If it were the case, in stead of threads about how unfair it is you have to have hoT to use the buffs, there would be threads about how unfair it is that only guild leaders have to buy HoT. In the end I’m honestly suprised that non_HoT accounts even have access to guild halls in the first place. I’d assumed they would be limited to accessing their existing services from the guild initiative.

Not only that, where does it end? Move forward in time to the next expansion, or even the next feature patch. Guilds are now built around guild halls. That was the whole point. It wasn’t to sell HoT. It was to fix the guild system. They tied it to a HoT purchase because it’s a minor feature that gives minor buffs, and hey, maybe they’ll agree with you that its fair to place all of the financial burden on guild leadership and give everyone who isn’t a guild leader a free pass.

Never mind the fact that the only reason people can even get in to a guild hall to complain they can’t use some stuff in it is because their guild leader bought HoT, or because he managed to get a party’s worth of other people who also own HoT to actually do an instance to claim the hall. You know, that critical guild mission that the people complaining they can’t use the hall also didn’t help with.

Now you extend the guild systems by extending the halls. How do you then make that system “fair” for non-HoT accounts? Now you have to design the same system twice again. And you’re doing a lot of extra design and implementation work for people who have already told you they’re not interested in paying you for the time spent to develop that system.

Does that seem like a good use of development funds to you? You know, when you could be spending that money extendining the game in new content patches. Content patches that, by hte way, you also need HoT to gain access to.

Core GW2 is still a fantastic value for the money. The fact that one minor portion of the guild system had to be axed for the good of the game, and that you can’t use NPCs that you technically shouldn’t have access to anyway is just nitpicking.

GW2, and HoT in general have tons of problems. There are huge balance issues with elite specs. There are core flaws in the design of WvW. There is an overallocation of resources to an esports platform that makes up an extremely small portion of player interest and revenue. There are far too many “rewards” that go straight to the cash shop in stead of being earned ingame.

However, this particular instance, the transition from influence to guild halls and their specific implementation is probably the most even handed, well designed, and fair thing to come out of HoT.

Asking for the new to coexist alongside the old is like asking for the old trait system to coexist with the new. They’re incompatible. People lost a lot of customization and trait options with the transition to specs, and they lost them because of the elite spec design. Yes. Certain parts were cut specifically for expansion features. Yes, the game will feel somewhat incomplete without the expansion for this reason. No, the buy-to-play game is not designed around people who can’t be bothered to buy new content in order to play with the new systems. Doing so would literally be more work spent in order to appease people willing to spend less money on the product.

Hate arenanet for that if you like. It’s valid. They absolutely value you less as a customer when you decide to stop being a customer. I understand how that’s a problem for people.

PopeUrban.2578:

They absolutely value you less as a customer when you decide to stop being a customer. I understand how that’s a problem for people.

Except just because you choose not to buy HoT doesn’t mean you aren’t a customer. Anet got more of my money just this week with the latest gem shop sale. I fail to see why the money I’ve spent on character slots, skins, and even extra accounts holds less value or makes me less of a customer than if I put that same money toward HoT. If anything, they should like me more. I still happily play through old content, am on less, and demand fewer new shinies or content than most, but still give them cash-monies. It sucks to be considered a non-customer simply because I prefer to spend cash on buying quaggan backpacks to gift instead of romping through Maguuma.

I heard a future patch will finally add gliding in all of Tyria! Though apparently due to incapability issues those with out the access to the glider will be restricted from leaving Lion’s Arch but that’s ok since they’re nothing but freeloaders anyways.