Guild wars 2 moving towards the holy trinity?

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Posted by: evilunderling.9265

evilunderling.9265

he GW2 meta is just as toxic, actually it probably is even more toxic.

There is no such thing as a “toxic meta”, only a handful of ‘toxic’ adherents to the meta, and they do get everywhere. Please, provide your evidence or reasoning for it being worse in GW2 than it is in other MMOs.

Note how many MMOs literally bribe players to join pug runs that might include new or unskilled players.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

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Posted by: Lazaar.9123

Lazaar.9123

You’re not likely to gain credibility by posting a link to a diversity thread, in a holy trinity thread.

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Posted by: Nausiation.1469

Nausiation.1469

he GW2 meta is just as toxic, actually it probably is even more toxic.

There is no such thing as a “toxic meta”, only a handful of ‘toxic’ adherents to the meta, and they do get everywhere. Please, provide your evidence or reasoning for it being worse in GW2 than it is in other MMOs.

Note how many MMOs literally bribe players to join pug runs that might include new or unskilled players.

sorry I’m not some journalist who documents cases of toxicism in mmos for your personal needs of evidence. All I know is I see people get kicked out of dungeons all the time for being necro, and I’ve been kicked at last boss and a ton of other people have been kicked at last boss since the start of the game.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Ok, I’ll sum up what was said about trinity on my part:
1. No trinity is needed
2. While trinity is not needed, it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have different roles in dungeons
2.1. The most efficient way should not be one group of all dps
3. I think there should be 10 rolls of the present, a pair of each of these: condi, support, tank, control, dps (if you REALLY need me to, I’ll give you a description)
Additional thought:
Make trash mobs have quicker and more powerful hits
Bosses have quicker, but weaker attacks with more cc
Give them more life
While you should need these in dungeons, you should not be confined to this in non 5 man raids.

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Posted by: Lazaar.9123

Lazaar.9123

If there is a way for everyone in the party to all be able to dps, that will always be the fastest and most efficient way to do it, because it’s speed+speed+speed+speed+speed. No matter what you really do to diversify builds, there will always be a most efficient way, there will always be a meta, there isn’t a way around that. There isn’t really many people that are against conditions being fixed properly, as long as the change does not affect the effectiveness of power builds. Roles forced by the game actually doesn’t promote diversity, it does the opposite. In the context of support builds, support is different in Guild Wars 2 in that it is more about boons and conditions, and not healing, because people are able to heal themselves. Changing encounters to promote a different meta ultimately doesn’t help at all, as it is just a new meta.

tldr; The ultimate point of diversity is to have multiple ways to complete something, but that actually already exists. It’s up to the players themselves if they wish to use the other options.

(edited by Lazaar.9123)

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Posted by: Bread.7516

Bread.7516

he GW2 meta is just as toxic, actually it probably is even more toxic.

There is no such thing as a “toxic meta”, only a handful of ‘toxic’ adherents to the meta, and they do get everywhere. Please, provide your evidence or reasoning for it being worse in GW2 than it is in other MMOs.

Note how many MMOs literally bribe players to join pug runs that might include new or unskilled players.

sorry I’m not some journalist who documents cases of toxicism in mmos for your personal needs of evidence. All I know is I see people get kicked out of dungeons all the time for being necro, and I’ve been kicked at last boss and a ton of other people have been kicked at last boss since the start of the game.

He said evidence or reasoning, a proper one not “I want it to be this game so I tailor information to fit my needs (really poor job at that)”.

WoW is that way, go play it.

(edited by Bread.7516)

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

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Posted by: Lazaar.9123

Lazaar.9123

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

That idea is extremely anti-diversity. You’re nerfing one playstyle to buff another.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

That idea is extremely anti-diversity. You’re nerfing one playstyle to buff another.

Since everyone can do everything, if you want to play one way, you find a party that doesn’t have it. It’s not a perfect situation, but it’s better than “zerker way or the highway”. So, if engineer was the best at everything, would you nerf it to make other professions playable?

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

So if I and four friends all prefer playing the DPS role, then we can’t do a dungeon together and have to split up and wait for a control and support person, with one having to wait for another DPS person?

No thanks.

I like being able to go into dungeons and use whatever role I want to use. Not whatever role is open for me. Or to wait for someone to come into fill that role.

And if you take a look at the guides for dungeons, you notice a lot of things like: guardians use your wall of reflect here, or ele’s use your might stacking skills here as hard fight’s coming up, or keeping the boss blind or dazed will help here.

Look at that. DPS people doing control or support. Already.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

So if I and four friends all prefer playing the DPS role, then we can’t do a dungeon together and have to split up and wait for a control and support person, with one having to wait for another DPS person?

No thanks.

I like being able to go into dungeons and use whatever role I want to use. Not whatever role is open for me. Or to wait for someone to come into fill that role.

And if you take a look at the guides for dungeons, you notice a lot of things like: guardians use your wall of reflect here, or ele’s use your might stacking skills here as hard fight’s coming up, or keeping the boss blind or dazed will help here.

Look at that. DPS people doing control or support. Already.

Never said you were forced, but the only reason why all dps works is because the mobs are to easy. But in those 5 people cases, dps is the MAIN goal, not a goal.

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Posted by: Lazaar.9123

Lazaar.9123

So, if engineer was the best at everything, would you nerf it to make other professions playable?

No, I would buff the other classes so that they are also able to fill the roles in their own unique ways.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

So, if engineer was the best at everything, would you nerf it to make other professions playable?

No, I would buff the other classes so that they are also able to fill the roles in their own unique ways.

And in the end, what’s the difference? Then you buff the boss, same situation, different number factor.
Edit: suppose engineer is better by stats.

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Posted by: Lazaar.9123

Lazaar.9123

So, if engineer was the best at everything, would you nerf it to make other professions playable?

No, I would buff the other classes so that they are also able to fill the roles in their own unique ways.

And in the end, what’s the difference? Then you buff the boss, same situation, different number factor.

Nope. You have had many explanations to you on the state of things and why certain things do not change anything, by multiple people. If you choose to ignore it all, that’s ultimately your choice.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

So, if engineer was the best at everything, would you nerf it to make other professions playable?

No, I would buff the other classes so that they are also able to fill the roles in their own unique ways.

And in the end, what’s the difference? Then you buff the boss, same situation, different number factor.

Nope. You have had many explanations to you on the state of things and why certain things do not change anything, by multiple people. If you choose to ignore it all, that’s ultimately your choice.

Since I am so ignorant, state what I overlook.

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Posted by: evilunderling.9265

evilunderling.9265

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

In a ‘meta’ group, members of seven out of the eight professions are expected to provide something in the support role. Thieves provide defensive support via blinds, Mesmers use Feedback and the focus to provide defensive support, Guardians have aegis, blinds, and Wall of Reflection for defensive support, and so on. Warriors and eles help the group to maintain might, Rangers and Engineers often help to provide vulnerability.

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

So if I and four friends all prefer playing the DPS role, then we can’t do a dungeon together and have to split up and wait for a control and support person, with one having to wait for another DPS person?

No thanks.

I like being able to go into dungeons and use whatever role I want to use. Not whatever role is open for me. Or to wait for someone to come into fill that role.

And if you take a look at the guides for dungeons, you notice a lot of things like: guardians use your wall of reflect here, or ele’s use your might stacking skills here as hard fight’s coming up, or keeping the boss blind or dazed will help here.

Look at that. DPS people doing control or support. Already.

Never said you were forced, but the only reason why all dps works is because the mobs are to easy. But in those 5 people cases, dps is the MAIN goal, not a goal.

Yes, it would be forced to split up. Because the only way for the roles to become part of the meta is for the game to turn into a forced trinity. And people prefer certain roles because they find them more fun than the other roles.

So if I and four other friends wanted to do a dungeon together, 2 of us would either have to switch to a build or a class that we found boring or split up in order to have fun. And isn’t that a bad thing for this game? That people have to do things that they do not want to do in order to play together? That two people have to sacrifice their enjoyment of the game to play together? Or that a group of friends can’t play together in order to have fun?

Guess what, in holy trinity games, DPS is still the main goal. You just need healers to remain alive. As dead players do 0 DPS. You need tanks to hold aggro because the DPS’ers and the healers can’t take hits without dying. And well, dead players still do 0 DPS.

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

In a ‘meta’ group, members of seven out of the eight professions are expected to provide something in the support role. Thieves provide defensive support via blinds, Mesmers use Feedback and the focus to provide defensive support, Guardians have aegis, blinds, and Wall of Reflection for defensive support, and so on. Warriors and eles help the group to maintain might, Rangers and Engineers often help to provide vulnerability.

And I’d bet that in the niche environments that necros are great in for dungeons or fractals, it’s because of some support or control role. Not their DPS capabilities.

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Posted by: Test.8734

Test.8734

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta

I disagree.

The issue with berseker isn’t that it’s the most effective way to PvE, rather that it’s the most effective way to PvE everywhere.

If we had better designed encounters so one area is actually different from the other, we could have one place in which zerker is the most effective build, another in which a combination of different roles in the most effective build, another in which conditions + control is the most effective build, etc.

We don’t need to have a single meta. If the game were well designed, we would have such variety that different scenarios would have different metas.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

In a ‘meta’ group, members of seven out of the eight professions are expected to provide something in the support role. Thieves provide defensive support via blinds, Mesmers use Feedback and the focus to provide defensive support, Guardians have aegis, blinds, and Wall of Reflection for defensive support, and so on. Warriors and eles help the group to maintain might, Rangers and Engineers often help to provide vulnerability.

The only way to prove which argument states more truly is to test against a much more powerful, non one shot boss. Essentially, the argument is, specialized rolls, or many rolls with a little of each. Testing will tell.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta

I disagree.

The issue with berseker isn’t that it’s the most effective way to PvE, rather that it’s the most effective way to PvE everywhere.

If we had better designed encounters so one area is actually different from the other, we could have one place in which zerker is the most effective build, another in which a combination of different roles in the most effective build, another in which conditions + control is the most effective build, etc.

We don’t need to have a single meta. If the game were well designed, we would have such variety that different scenarios would have different metas.

I could go for this, but in no one place should all 5 players be most efficient with zerker.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

The only comment I have to make on the Zerk meta is that it is not a problem that the meta exists. The problem is that the meta is universal.

It wouldn’t be terribly hard to alter the meta in some dungeon paths. Say one dungeon path had a ton of Mordrem Husks. The meta for that path would almost certainly not be “5 Zerk” but would rather shift to a mix of Zerk, Sinister, and/or celestial. Say another involved escorting an NPC carrying a large object (so no skills) through a dangerous path. You might see Zealot’s or even Clerics being the meta (or at least in the meta makeup) there, depending on how it was set up. You have a bunch of crit-immune enemies in another path? Soldier’s gear would probably be the big one there.

There is no problem at all with Zerker gear being optimal in content. There is a problem when it’s optimal in all content. Thankfully, Anet has been taking steps with enemy and encounter design to make Zerker higher risk and not always the best choice in PVE.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: AegisRunestone.8672

AegisRunestone.8672

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

In a ‘meta’ group, members of seven out of the eight professions are expected to provide something in the support role. Thieves provide defensive support via blinds, Mesmers use Feedback and the focus to provide defensive support, Guardians have aegis, blinds, and Wall of Reflection for defensive support, and so on. Warriors and eles help the group to maintain might, Rangers and Engineers often help to provide vulnerability.

The only way to prove which argument states more truly is to test against a much more powerful, non one shot boss. Essentially, the argument is, specialized rolls, or many rolls with a little of each. Testing will tell.

And what makes you think that ANET will go with your testing argument?

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Posted by: Seera.5916

Seera.5916

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

In a ‘meta’ group, members of seven out of the eight professions are expected to provide something in the support role. Thieves provide defensive support via blinds, Mesmers use Feedback and the focus to provide defensive support, Guardians have aegis, blinds, and Wall of Reflection for defensive support, and so on. Warriors and eles help the group to maintain might, Rangers and Engineers often help to provide vulnerability.

The only way to prove which argument states more truly is to test against a much more powerful, non one shot boss. Essentially, the argument is, specialized rolls, or many rolls with a little of each. Testing will tell.

We don’t mind different areas having a different meta because certain things make it easier to get through. We just don’t want FORCED roles. We don’t want to have to wait for a person with a certain build to come along to do the dungeon. Speed runners don’t have to wait for people who fall under their requirements to run the dungeon. They choose to do so.

We want the freedom to be able to run the dungeon or do the content in the gear that is the absolute opposite of the meta and be able to succeed. If we choose to do so.

Don’t force us to have to have people who fill a certain role.

Edited because my mind moved faster than my fingers and I left out a word.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

In a ‘meta’ group, members of seven out of the eight professions are expected to provide something in the support role. Thieves provide defensive support via blinds, Mesmers use Feedback and the focus to provide defensive support, Guardians have aegis, blinds, and Wall of Reflection for defensive support, and so on. Warriors and eles help the group to maintain might, Rangers and Engineers often help to provide vulnerability.

The only way to prove which argument states more truly is to test against a much more powerful, non one shot boss. Essentially, the argument is, specialized rolls, or many rolls with a little of each. Testing will tell.

And what makes you think that ANET will go with your testing argument?

Nothing, except that we have seen a similar to description mob in the revenant HoT PoI

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

If you want to break the All Zerker meta its as simple as reduce the base healing of self-heals by 15%.

The very best zerker players only need a tiny amount of self healing to cover the truly inescapable damage and their (very) rare mistakes — the loss of 15% won’t kill them, though it may make things a wee bit more thrilling. But from semi-awesome zerker players down to the true posers who put it on because someone tells them to and not because their really well suited to it? Those people will get shredded by even such a small reduction in healing.

The real problem is the defenses that matter don’t scale with any attribute. Aegis and blind are 100% effect, not 50-100% effective based on a stat of the character applying them. Toughness and Vitality are bufferes against mistakes, but they are literally the LAST line of defense. And that’s why, given a choice of how to allocate your stats its better to reduce the time you are subject to threat than to increase your ability to withstand damage you’ll never take in the first place with sufficient evades, blinds, and aegis.

If aegis prevented 50% of the damage and another 1-50% based on your toughness (for example), you’d see people gearing for some Toughness.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

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Posted by: Moo.3408

Moo.3408

Are current meta is “zerker only”. You must have a meta, but why not have it like… 1 support, 1 control, etc. To get rid of zerker only, you need to make it nearly impossible which is why you make the mobs harder. +50% attack speed, and make it to no one shots, then dps only groups are impossible.

In a ‘meta’ group, members of seven out of the eight professions are expected to provide something in the support role. Thieves provide defensive support via blinds, Mesmers use Feedback and the focus to provide defensive support, Guardians have aegis, blinds, and Wall of Reflection for defensive support, and so on. Warriors and eles help the group to maintain might, Rangers and Engineers often help to provide vulnerability.

The only way to prove which argument states more truly is to test against a much more powerful, non one shot boss. Essentially, the argument is, specialized rolls, or many rolls with a little of each. Testing will tell.

We don’t mind different areas having a different meta because certain things make it easier to get through. We just don’t want FORCED roles. We don’t want to have to wait for a person with a certain build to come along to do the dungeon. Speed runners don’t have to wait for people who fall under their requirements to run the dungeon. They choose to do so.

We want the freedom to be able to run the dungeon or do the content in the gear that is the absolute opposite of the meta and be able to succeed. If we choose to do so.

Don’t force us to have to have people who fill a certain role.

Edited because my mind moved faster than my fingers and I left out a word.

The answer has been given to me, I have been enlightened by Test’s answer. If you need more explaining, I shall. By the way, point taken, but that is somewhat like what non zerker players feel.

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Posted by: Faline.8795

Faline.8795

I’d like to speak as someone who is new to Guild Wars.

I came from an MMO that used the Holy Trinity.

Today I fought my first big boss in Guild Wars. Let me say that the fight was AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!

It was a total cluster, unorganized, running around, trying to fight and stay alive, and it was the best battle I had ever been in in a video game!

Why?

Because that is what fights in real life are like! March in with a plan, 10 seconds later the plan goes out the window and you’re fighting for your life. Watch the opening battle in the movie Gladiator. Yup, that’s what it was really like. (No, I was not there personally!)

I’m running around, dps the boss. Someone died. Someone else died. I’d better get down and revive them or this boss will kill us all. The other guy is dps’ing, so the boss isn’t interested in me. Okay. Revive…revive. Oops, the other guy is dead and now the boss sees me. Run!!! Now I’m dead, but someone else is dps’ing the boss. Revive…revive. I’m up, now to finish healing the other dead guy. Oh good, we’re all up now. Dps the boss. And the boss is dead.

My gosh! What a fight!!!!!

Now, if we had the Trinity, some guy would keep the boss focus and all I would do is stand around and try not to steal threat. Oh, okay, here is a boss special move. Counter it and back to dps’ing.

Those fights are boring.

From what I’ve seen, Guild Wars doesn’t have a problem with the fight. The problem is the player who doesn’t think beyond pew pew. The good player knows to pew pew but not so much to attract all the boss’s attention, and also when to hep his comrades.

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Posted by: Wetpaw.3487

Wetpaw.3487

GW2 does not have a trinity, will not have a trinity, and does not need a trinity. There are other games you can play if you want that thing.

Gw2 doesn’t need mounts or gliders, go play Archeage…hang gliders inc.
GW2 doesn’t need vertical gear progression go play WoW- Ascended in.
GW2 doesn’t need to put an emphasis on tank builds-Taunt & slow inc.

Not everything needs to be black and white, grey is good, and so is a better emphasis of builds outside of zerker. It’s coming.

good read here also,
http://www.tentonhammer.com/feature/taunt-will-transform-guild-wars-2s-pve

JQ Druid

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

GW2 does not have a trinity, will not have a trinity, and does not need a trinity. There are other games you can play if you want that thing.

Gw2 doesn’t need mounts or gliders, go play Archeage…hang gliders inc.
GW2 doesn’t need vertical gear progression go play WoW- Ascended in.
GW2 doesn’t need to put an emphasis on tank builds-Taunt & slow inc.

Not everything needs to be black and white, grey is good, and so is a better emphasis of builds outside of zerker. It’s coming.

good read here also,
http://www.tentonhammer.com/feature/taunt-will-transform-guild-wars-2s-pve

Interesting article.

The author does seem to be painfully lacking in understanding of what he is writing about though.

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Posted by: Lazaar.9123

Lazaar.9123

GW2 does not have a trinity, will not have a trinity, and does not need a trinity. There are other games you can play if you want that thing.

Gw2 doesn’t need mounts or gliders, go play Archeage…hang gliders inc.
GW2 doesn’t need vertical gear progression go play WoW- Ascended in.
GW2 doesn’t need to put an emphasis on tank builds-Taunt & slow inc.

Not everything needs to be black and white, grey is good, and so is a better emphasis of builds outside of zerker. It’s coming.

good read here also,
http://www.tentonhammer.com/feature/taunt-will-transform-guild-wars-2s-pve

An article that is entirely based on opinions isn’t going to help you much here. You’ve been wanting the holy trinity in Guild Wars 2 for ages now, that doesn’t mean it’s coming.

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Posted by: Wetpaw.3487

Wetpaw.3487

GW2 does not have a trinity, will not have a trinity, and does not need a trinity. There are other games you can play if you want that thing.

Gw2 doesn’t need mounts or gliders, go play Archeage…hang gliders inc.
GW2 doesn’t need vertical gear progression go play WoW- Ascended in.
GW2 doesn’t need to put an emphasis on tank builds-Taunt & slow inc.

Not everything needs to be black and white, grey is good, and so is a better emphasis of builds outside of zerker. It’s coming.

good read here also,
http://www.tentonhammer.com/feature/taunt-will-transform-guild-wars-2s-pve

An article that is entirely based on opinions isn’t going to help you much here. You’ve been wanting the holy trinity in Guild Wars 2 for ages now, that doesn’t mean it’s coming.

Well all we have is opinions at this time. I also don’t want a hard trinity/required trinity, but this doesn’t mean expanding GW current system is a bad thing, or having a open mind to the possibilities.

and my view is not taking in consideration the current dungeons, and fotm.

JQ Druid

(edited by Wetpaw.3487)

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Posted by: tekfan.3179

tekfan.3179

Arenanet made one huge mistake on their part to emphasize this mono-meta-crap that’s going on: The timer on events!
Wanna do a world boss? Do it in this time!
Wanna do the Silverwastes? Do it in this time!

Also it seems your loot depends to some extend on the damage you caused to a mob.

While there is nothing wrong with the zerker-builds, they can be quite fun to play, I love supportive builds as well. I’d like to play the way I want without the game ignoring my part in something. Or the toxic players that is. It’s always so rewarding to cc the crap out of enemies, keep them in aoe-fields, heal players, remove conditions on players, buff them, rez them, only for some of them to rant about “those players who don’t carry themselves”. I almost had a heart attack because of the surprise I had when a warrior actually was thanking me honestly for the healing in a random dungeon-group, when I was around in my celestial build.

You were always pretty much free to play as you like. There was no special new mechanic needed, you could always work out a build that allowed for your favourite way to play. I’ve got a tanky celestial build for my ele, greatly emphasizing on healing, tanking(/rezzing players in dot-fields) and cc. The dmg-output of that build is pretty low, so I tend to get a lot of green champion-bags with it, no matter if I pretty much healed the whole group of zerkers and kept mobs from attacking them.

Yeah, the game allows you to play the way you like, put it’s a piece of junk in regards to keep track of any deed in crowd-events except for dps or mini-events like ammo-gathering for siege carriers.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

I would like to ask. But why do some of you all care so much if a trinity system was added to the game?

If you dont like it, just dont play the trinity. Why do any of you care if it gets added?

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

One possible solution to this perceived ‘problem’ (I won’t go to much into how this whole deal is 100% purely psychological): (PvE only) leave the current game the way that it is and give every profession a GM trait in the toughness line that instantly and passively procs Taunt on all enemies in range with 100% uptime and a GM trait in the vitality line that increases outgoing healing by 10,000%. This way, all the PHIW can run their roleplaying trinity setups with a healer standing still at range spamming water fields, a tank standing still in the middle of a group of mobs spamming shield block skills and their 3 Damagers standing next to the enemies spamming skills off cooldown. This would also allow the full Meta groups to continue using the games mechanics to keep themselves alive, offensively and defensively support their allies, control enemies, and do high amounts of damage in order to complete content efficiently with the tools the game was designed with/for. The traits, I admit, are a bit contrived, but so is this whole argument. It’s a win/win for everyone.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

One possible solution to this perceived ‘problem’ (I won’t go to much into how this whole deal is 100% purely psychological): (PvE only) leave the current game the way that it is and give every profession a GM trait in the toughness line that instantly and passively procs Taunt on all enemies in range with 100% uptime and a GM trait in the vitality line that increases outgoing healing by 10,000%. This way, all the PHIW can run their roleplaying trinity setups with a healer standing still at range spamming water fields, a tank standing still in the middle of a group of mobs spamming shield block skills and their 3 Damagers standing next to the enemies spamming skills off cooldown. This would also allow the full Meta groups to continue using the games mechanics to keep themselves alive, offensively and defensively support their allies, control enemies, and do high amounts of damage in order to complete content efficiently with the tools the game was designed with/for. The traits, I admit, are a bit contrived, but so is this whole argument. It’s a win/win for everyone.

I believe they dont even need to do all that to make the trinity work.

Simply make Tank aka Controllers, more important by giving them stats that make their CCs stronger without a massive boost to damage. This makes the group based content players bring more CC to the fight, and fights require good CC, than people that play the control build will be more accepted by the community.

Support role players can be there to provide a form of protection to the Controllers, by helping them avoid being hit (such as Resistance boon) and applying Defense and Swiftness so they can avoid unshakable attacks.

Damage role players, aka the zerkers can still be used and effective for killing the Boss before timer runs out.

All roles have an important purpose to the fight. All roles valued in group content.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

Lol this game is too easy if anything, there really is no hardmode for the hardcore players in this game. It just needs more balancing.

PvP is hardmode. Don’t believe me? Try being one of the best at it.

So you saying PvP is PvE?

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

Oh, and so nobody feels left out, after some balancing, we could alter conditions to unload their full damage instantly (exactly like direct damage O.o) but we could call it bleed and burning damage so all the snowflakes could feel speshul (in their own minds) and their ‘damage over time’ skills would finally compete with direct damage.

We could even take it a step further and give every piece of equipment Celestial stats but they could all keep their current roleplay names b/c in GW2, like every other previous MMO that people have been used to, gear stats/names=build/role.

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

Lol! Hehehehe…you’re right Knight, they don’t need to do all of that.

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

I do appreciate that that scenario appealed to someone who wants more diverse, dynamic combat for the sake of GW2 though. Hehehe…

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Posted by: tekfan.3179

tekfan.3179

I would like to ask. But why do some of you all care so much if a trinity system was added to the game?

If you dont like it, just dont play the trinity. Why do any of you care if it gets added?

One problem that you have with a hardcore trinity system is that you need one specific class to do one specific task. The whole success of something depends on that class doing its job right.

Imagine you can’t do something because the new content in GW2 would be designed with a trinity in mind and you would lack the profession in your party that’s the new dedicated tank/dps/healer.

I remember RF Online, a korean mmorpg I once played. The game had a trinity and the tank was a terrible class to play when you weren’t leveling in a party. Pretty much the only thing it was good in was taking hits, taunting and burning through hp-potions.
But when you wanted to level any character in high level areas, you needed a tank that could pull and keep an enemy and had the gear to keep standing in these areas.
This resulted in very few good tanks and therefore long waiting-times to form a party.
When I decided to play a tank and was pretty decent at it, the guild started to throw expensive gear at me to keep me playing, that’s how desperate everyone was for tanks.

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

I’ll be here all week folks…

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

I would like to ask. But why do some of you all care so much if a trinity system was added to the game?

If you dont like it, just dont play the trinity. Why do any of you care if it gets added?

One problem that you have with a hardcore trinity system is that you need one specific class to do one specific task. The whole success of something depends on that class doing its job right.

Imagine you can’t do something because the new content in GW2 would be designed with a trinity in mind and you would lack the profession in your party that’s the new dedicated tank/dps/healer.

I remember RF Online, a korean mmorpg I once played. The game had a trinity and the tank was a terrible class to play when you weren’t leveling in a party. Pretty much the only thing it was good in was taking hits, taunting and burning through hp-potions.
But when you wanted to level any character in high level areas, you needed a tank that could pull and keep an enemy and had the gear to keep standing in these areas.
This resulted in very few good tanks and therefore long waiting-times to form a party.
When I decided to play a tank and was pretty decent at it, the guild started to throw expensive gear at me to keep me playing, that’s how desperate everyone was for tanks.

But if all classes can be a Tank,

All classes a DPS

and all classes a Support

How can you ever “NOT have any of those roles”?

thats what I dont understand about the argument against the trinity.

this isnt Everquest 1 where a class was locked into 1 and only 1 of the trinity roles.
The MMO genre moved away from that back during World of Warcraft’s first expansion which was years ago.

A Guardian for example, can spec into better Control, or they can swap into better support, or better damage.

and thing for a Warrior, except as of now, support for them is not as good.

Eles can spec into control, support or damage.

ect

With changes like this, all classes still can play any role.

only difference is that the group content cant just all be Zerked down like current.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Let’s say it once again.

Taunt does nothing to the Threat list, it doesn’t put you on top of the list like in other MMORPGs with Tanks. The moment the Taunt effect is over, the mob will return back to whoever it was hitting before.

It’s not a tanking system, nor an aggro management system.

As for the OP… you really have no clue about the meta. The king of the current meta is Support, those speed kills are only possible because everyone in the group is supporting, spreading buffs allies, and debuffs on enemies, so they die as quickly as possible.

The “Watch the red bars move” either health bars or threat bars game is elsewhere, why can’t we have a good game for once?

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Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

Gw2 is not moving toward a trinity. The game is also getting much better at designing difficult encounters that go against the whole “stack and dps” 5x zerkers. Instead, EVERYONE will be able to pull their weight by brining more support and control and sacrificing a little dps.

For instance, I often choose to take off-hand focus on my ele (I don’t play the max-dps build) so that I can stack might and invuln-res allies (ally support)) and block projectiles (enemy control). Some of the potential changes to defiance might make more interrupts more viable, increasing CC (another form of control).

Newer encounters that can’t be beaten with “stacking” increase the importance of toughness/vitality, allowing you to survive some of the inevitable hits and take the load off your allies to have to constantly save your bacon.

The best part is, everyone should take into account bringing more support/control effects with these changes. I already prefer to run PUG groups and ignore standard strategy, so I these things into account. The game is a lot of fun when you don’t just use the most basic/failproof strats that the community has developed so far.

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Posted by: tekfan.3179

tekfan.3179

I would like to ask. But why do some of you all care so much if a trinity system was added to the game?

If you dont like it, just dont play the trinity. Why do any of you care if it gets added?

One problem that you have with a hardcore trinity system is that you need one specific class to do one specific task. The whole success of something depends on that class doing its job right.

Imagine you can’t do something because the new content in GW2 would be designed with a trinity in mind and you would lack the profession in your party that’s the new dedicated tank/dps/healer.

I remember RF Online, a korean mmorpg I once played. The game had a trinity and the tank was a terrible class to play when you weren’t leveling in a party. Pretty much the only thing it was good in was taking hits, taunting and burning through hp-potions.
But when you wanted to level any character in high level areas, you needed a tank that could pull and keep an enemy and had the gear to keep standing in these areas.
This resulted in very few good tanks and therefore long waiting-times to form a party.
When I decided to play a tank and was pretty decent at it, the guild started to throw expensive gear at me to keep me playing, that’s how desperate everyone was for tanks.

But if all classes can be a Tank,

All classes a DPS

and all classes a Support

How can you ever “NOT have any of those roles”?

thats what I dont understand about the argument against the trinity.

this isnt Everquest 1 where a class was locked into 1 and only 1 of the trinity roles.
The MMO genre moved away from that back during World of Warcraft’s first expansion which was years ago.

A Guardian for example, can spec into better Control, or they can swap into better support, or better damage.

and thing for a Warrior, except as of now, support for them is not as good.

Eles can spec into control, support or damage.

ect

With changes like this, all classes still can play any role.

only difference is that the group content cant just all be Zerked down like current.

If it would be like that and everybody could do everything, I’d have no problem with that. In fact, I even think it was almost like this in GW2, before someone at ANet had that idea of putting timers on everything. Last but not least, the game appears to have never been designed to put your non-dps activities into account for rewards.

In my opinion we don’t need additional trinity-mechanics in the game, we’re good on that with the equipment, traits and skills we got. We need less time-limits for bosses, a reward-system that takes cc’s, heals, rezzes, buffing and condition-removal into account as much as dps and bosses that make those roles more important and helpful.
Support-, zerker- or trinity-gameplay shouldn’t be required for events, but the experience should feel better and more smoothly if all of them are around, instead of just one.
In an ideal GW2 a zerker should squeal in joy when a heal-spec’ed water-ele joins the fight and heals the crap out of them, as much as the zerker would with a glass cannon ele coming in.

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Posted by: Tman.6349

Tman.6349

Knight and Tefkan, great couple of posts to prove that this is a psychological deal that’s stems from the tunnel vision so many people have acquired from years of previous trinity MMOs. Everyone needs to have their specific, specialized role where I only need to be good at that one thing and someone else will do the other things for me and, if they’re not capable, we’ll wipe, start over, and it can be all their fault. So many players still haven’t accepted that one of GW2’s primary tenants was/is to do away with that notion completely. So many still can’t fathom and haven’t made the jump to accepting that their are no roles to define yourself as in GW2. There’s no bragging rights for “I’m the best ‘X role’ in the game bro!”. Everyone is responsible for every roll. You’re designed to be self-sefficient in the context of cooperative group play. You’re a good general player and capable of doing all the roles simultaneously, or you’re probably making ‘We need a Trinity’ threads.

The above comments about giving ‘tanks’ (we don’t have those) stats to make their CC stronger and giving ‘support roles’ (healers? we don’t have those either) stats to reduce and counter damage to allies are based on the assumptions that every profession doesn’t have access to these things for themselves (this is false) and that the name of the prefix of you gear determines what you can/should do in a party combat scenario (also false).

Every profession is designed to fulfill every aspect of combat independently while still being effective in group dynamics. Healer? Everyone has self heals and weaker party support heals. Tank? Everyone has dodges and personal damage mitigation (ie. Active Defenses) as well as less powerful forms of party damage mitigation (think proactive here instead of reactive like trinity models). Control? Everyone has access to some form of hard or soft crowd control. Damage? Everyone is capable of inflicting both physical and condition damage. When everyone in the group takes personal responsibility for all these things, combat is very dynamic. (AI arguments aside.)

Gear stats are a personal, passive offense/defense slider scale. They determine how much of direct and condition damage you want to do and how much passive defense you need to survive encounters. Everything else about your ‘role’ is determined by your build, not your gear stats. Builds include specific weapon selections, Runesets, Sigils, trait distributions, utility skills, and profession mechanics where they apply. Those are the things that matter in the context of party dynamics. The Meta uses Berserker’s and Sin’s gear because, with proper usage of active defenses, party utility, and mob control, they have the highest potential output for clearing content. That’s just logical; if your group synergy/skill level allows you to completely avoid taking damage with the game’s mechanics, then you should strive to output your maximum damage in that context.

I see a lot of people saying they love this game, but then say they just want to drastically alter it in the same breathe. I think it really comes down to being hung up on what they’ve encountered before in other games and, therefore, not appreciating what GW2 does outside of that mold and accepting the game on it’s own terms.

*Gear prefixes are just words. They don’t have any intrinsic meaning. Please don’t get so hung up on arbitrary words. We could easily just have the Devs change the name of the Pow/prec/fer prefix to ‘Super Uber Battletank OP Heelz’ and the placebo effect would be quite strong I think.

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Posted by: nexxe.7081

nexxe.7081

Guild Wars 2 isn’t moving towards a holy trinity. It wouldn’t even work in Guild Wars 2
A holy trinity would be the opposite of diversity anyway.

Yeah, there’s so much diversity… oh wait. Zerker meta is one role.

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Posted by: rotten.9753

rotten.9753

I could go for this, but in no one place should all 5 players be most efficient with zerker.

You’d be happy to know that both “raid” bosses are where soldier gear is usually used.