Guild Wars 2

tekfan.3179:

You can be viable in the game, doing nothing but supportive deeds. Heck, if I join an event with my supportive build, you can easily observe how players drop less.
But neither the reward-system of the game nor the meta-crazed kind of players will notice that. All that’s registered is the dps.
I do low dps on a champion, because I chose to keep a glassy thief on his feet with the water-attunement? Green bag.
Even better: Besaid thief turns around, thanks me for the rez and then says I do kitten low dps.

Why are you locking yourself into a single role in a game that was specifically created against that?
Support is needed but you’re making yourself as useful as only one third of another player who could also do some DPS and some CC along with the Support.

read this.
http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

Sagat.3285:

Yes hardcore synergy,customization and promotion of stats.

I say all stats should be removed from all equipment.
Each class keep their base stats (like when completely nude) and that’s it.

Attached stats just need to be removed,as long as crit chance/damage exist other stats will be subpar bad idea to implement those two and expect other stats to compete.

Linken.6345:

Vocal minority what can i say, the pve is decent you dont have to be a zerker its just the quickest way

can easily do dungeons in full cleric. How do i know? because i did so last night, alongside a pug party, only thief had zerk…. rest was PVT or something else.

Did it take a lil longer? Yes, about 3 minutes longer.

Do i mind? NO

trinity – GTFO

GiraffeRampage.6420:

Seera.5916:

GiraffeRampage.6420:

Okay youre clearly misreading my statements, im saying having a healing meta not necessarily a holy trinity. Secondly no one is pushing anyone and you dont represent the entire player base as there are alot of people that would enjoy playing a healing class and The healing signet as worthless as you always take more incoming damage than it heals per second.

That’s what dodging and moving around is for.

I play an elementalist. I don’t have a healing signet like warriors do. I have a signet that grants me healing per cast, but that’s less than a warriors per second. And warrior signet is active while stunned, etc. Elementalists aren’t. Because we aren’t casting.

If I’m actually moving around and dodging, I rarely need a heal. And if I do, my heal covers me. And I don’t use my healing signet. Because I prefer my glyph.

And even if I’m not moving around and dodging like I should, my heal still covers me.

So no, I’m not seeing this need for a dedicated healer.

Yea thats easy for you to say when youre speaking from a ranged dps opinion, you get to safely dps a boss where as a melee dps is standing in the hit box to dps a boss and cant get out of large aoe fast enough.

What kind of Ele stands in ranged? Have you ever done a dungeon? An Ele standing in ranged in a melee fight in my party would be kicked for screwing up the stack. Guardian, Ele, Warrior, Ranger, Thief, Mesmer no matter what I am playing I am in the stack.

How anyone can consider trinity as a more complex PvE system is beyond me, in fact it’s polar opposite resulting in the dumbing down of encounters. Non-trinity forces all players to manage their own resources, which include DPS, healing and agro; that in itself requires more skill than single role players in a trinity system. Sure not all encounters in GW2 are all that hard, that has been steadily improving but in no way shape or form can one argue trinity would add difficulty and certainly doesn’t make for better players.
That topped with hours spent sitting around spamming for healers and tanks, thank you but NO!

Vlad Morbius.1759:

How anyone can consider trinity as a more complex PvE system is beyond me, in fact it’s polar opposite resulting in the dumbing down of encounters. Non-trinity forces all players to manage their own resources, which include DPS, healing and agro; that in itself requires more skill than single role players in a trinity system. Sure not all encounters in GW2 are all that hard, that has been steadily improving but in no way shape or form can one argue trinity would add difficulty and certainly doesn’t make for better players.
That topped with hours spent sitting around spamming for healers and tanks, thank you but NO!

Exactly this ^^

Having a Trinity system doesn’t mean harder and better encounters.

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

Still not a fan of trinity.

Lets see what ANet has in store for us. The changes in stability alone might counter some of the issues people have with zerker if the stability stacks also tie into things like toughness and vitality. For the PvE crowd Anet could also be giving us new mechanics that cause larger feedback type damage. Honestly would prefer to see more mechanics that remove the whole stack here aspects of game.

That said, I still like that all classes can play all roles today and you never are left with we don’t have ‘x’ class so this is pointless discussions.

Dave Mark has hinted the NPC AI is being replaced with a utility based system:

Building a Better Centaur: AI at Massive Scale

This would suggest that not only are they not switching to a trinity based system, they’re moving even further away from one. The traditional MMO concept of aggro is an artifact of the NPCs being simple reflex agents. As a mechanic, runs counter to the entire point of a utility based system as it is based on the players being able to force the NPC into doing what is best for them rather than the NPC doing what is best for the NPC.

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

No necro can’t do as much dps as a warrior. It will do around 10% less dps. But your point is true. Except thief and Elementalist, most other profession do around the the same dps +/-15%. Its the utilities they bring that make them useful of not.

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

No necro can’t do as much dps as a warrior. It will do around 10% less dps. But your point is true. Except thief and Elementalist, most other profession do around the the same dps +/-15%. Its the utilities they bring that make them useful of not.

and that 10% doesn’t really seem to matter in most content as it would just take 1/5 of 10% more time

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

No necro can’t do as much dps as a warrior. It will do around 10% less dps. But your point is true. Except thief and Elementalist, most other profession do around the the same dps +/-15%. Its the utilities they bring that make them useful of not.

and that 10% doesn’t really seem to matter in most content as it would just take 1/5 of 10% more time

As stated it isn’t the 10% damage that matters. Necros are a selfish class and don’t offer anything useful to the party be it defensive or offensive. Example: Guardians do inferior DPS to most classes but have blocks, swiftness, blinds, reflects, etc.

Stormy Dragon.9210:

Dave Mark has hinted the NPC AI is being replaced with a utility based system:

Building a Better Centaur: AI at Massive Scale

This would suggest that not only are they not switching to a trinity based system, they’re moving even further away from one. The traditional MMO concept of aggro is an artifact of the NPCs being simple reflex agents. As a mechanic, runs counter to the entire point of a utility based system as it is based on the players being able to force the NPC into doing what is best for them rather than the NPC doing what is best for the NPC.

Oh man, that panel looks delicious. Wish I could go. I’m putting next year’s conference on my calendar now.

Dinks.2478:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

No necro can’t do as much dps as a warrior. It will do around 10% less dps. But your point is true. Except thief and Elementalist, most other profession do around the the same dps +/-15%. Its the utilities they bring that make them useful of not.

and that 10% doesn’t really seem to matter in most content as it would just take 1/5 of 10% more time

As stated it isn’t the 10% damage that matters. Necros are a selfish class and don’t offer anything useful to the party be it defensive or offensive. Example: Guardians do inferior DPS to most classes but have blocks, swiftness, blinds, reflects, etc.

i think you are being a bit harsh using axe’s a necro can provide a ton of different conditions vulnerability being , spec’d right one also can give bleed i think cripple i haven’t played with other weapons much but i think there is some versatility that you are overlooking

If you want the trinity then make your own groups. Update them for what you are looking for. Or even better make a guild for trinity style players and go tackle everything with your 1 DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 whatever you wants.

But quit asking for everyone else to be forced in to your way of playing just because you are to kitten lazy to do the above.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

i think you are being a bit harsh using axe’s a necro can provide a ton of different conditions vulnerability being , spec’d right one also can give bleed i think cripple i haven’t played with other weapons much but i think there is some versatility that you are overlooking

That’s not harsh, that’s just what it is. It sad because I would love to play Necro in PvE, hell it’s even fun to play, but it just don’t bring as must as other profession. It’s true that Axe give a good amount of vulnerability, but dagger will go around 50-60% more dps and will give you life force. Since most of your dps will come from DS, not using dagger will hurt even more your dps. Yes Necromancer can create might, but mostly only for himself and not for the group. Yes Necromancer can give weakness, but after the nerf not that much anymore. Its not normal that the guardian can give perma protection (33% less incoming damage) with 1 trait, while the Necro can only give 30% weakness uptime (25% less incoming damage) with 1 trait and 1 elite that decrease its damage to the floor during 20sec while using it And on top of that, most of his attack don’t cleave.

If necromancer could do around 5-10% more dps and cleave 3 targets, bring a good amount of vulnerability and weakness. All of that in a single pve build. Then it would be a good option for PvE dungeon/fractal. Maybe not a top choice, but a good choice.

In the GW2 paradigm, it is my belief that gear should be differentiated mainly by what it does, with gear stats depending mainly on the quality of the gear rather than the prefix.

Perhaps a good compromise would be for trinkets to remain as +stats, while armour allows you to build some buff by avoiding damage in combat and weapons allow you to build some buff by inflicting damage in combat.

The problem then becomes figuring out buffs that make sense and making sure that the meta isn’t as drastic as it is currently.

Armor stats let you mitigate the stat effects of your trait choices. The lower the equipment stats we have available the more 1-sided characters will have to be.

Haishao.6851:

tekfan.3179:

You can be viable in the game, doing nothing but supportive deeds. Heck, if I join an event with my supportive build, you can easily observe how players drop less.
But neither the reward-system of the game nor the meta-crazed kind of players will notice that. All that’s registered is the dps.
I do low dps on a champion, because I chose to keep a glassy thief on his feet with the water-attunement? Green bag.
Even better: Besaid thief turns around, thanks me for the rez and then says I do kitten low dps.

Why are you locking yourself into a single role in a game that was specifically created against that?
Support is needed but you’re making yourself as useful as only one third of another player who could also do some DPS and some CC along with the Support.

read this.
http://gw2101.gtm.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

…

While I count cc into supportive deeds, I’m not limiting myself to sole support. There are times where I do it, simply because the water-attunement keeps my party alive, but mostly I’m hopping wildly between all attunements and do whatever is needed on the field.

However, I feel that it shouldn’t be a problem for other players if someone plays a build that favors support over sole dps. While a zerker is still capable of doing support, that player is pretty much a glass-cannon.
What I want to emphasize is that someone who does everything, but would favor a more supportive build with faster recharging heals/condition-removals/cc’s over sole dps, shouldn’t feel less significant on the field, at least if he/she is using their skills in a productive way.

Windsagio.1340:

Armor stats let you mitigate the stat effects of your trait choices. The lower the equipment stats we have available the more 1-sided characters will have to be.

Just make it starts points and we can minus/plus how we want,the current one limits and impairs. Power,precision,ferocity need to merge,condi damage/duration need to merge, stats dependence should be made no heal with no healing power,no condis with no condition damage and so on. Who can argue it was a good idea to have 3 stats doing the same thing two being passive ??

Dinks.2478:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

sorudo.9054:

Lazaar.9123:

Hmm.7902:

I get the feeling that lots of people here are instantly spitting out “holy trinity holy trinity” whenever someone’s not satisfied with the status quo. The thing is though that this isn’t about holy trinity, it’s about almost every other build but damage, being it via boons, conditions or just pure dps being not viable enough, to a point were skilling that way would be detriment to your team and yourself in every major aspect of the game and it makes you wonder why certain attribute combinations on items are even there when Arena.Net seemingly doesn’t want dedicated “healers” or “tanks” – not even in the classical way, but in the GW2 sense.

And Lazaar, while it’s true that the meta right now is called support/control/damage there is no dedicated support/control/damage in the sense that someone skills fully into control or fully into damage. All three categories are hybrids of damage dealers + team utility. So your point’s really moot.

My point isn’t moot, because Guild Wars 2 is designed with the idea in mind that everyone can fill all three roles. Also, there is people in this thread that do want a hard trinity in guild wars 2, don’t pretend they don’t exist.

if that’s the case then why is it then only a small group of like 3 professions can do the roles effectively, can a necro do just as much DPS as a warrior?

the necro can do just as much dps as a warrior, he just doesnt have a lot of team synergy, and doesnt fit well into the way teams are handling dungeon encounters on a speed level.

warriors arent considered the best dps for some time now, its more about the utility, variability, and teamplay they can bring to the table, than their dps.

in fact the dungeon meta is more based on teamplay and support than highest straight up damage for a class.

necro doesnt play well with others is what it boils down to.

No necro can’t do as much dps as a warrior. It will do around 10% less dps. But your point is true. Except thief and Elementalist, most other profession do around the the same dps +/-15%. Its the utilities they bring that make them useful of not.

and that 10% doesn’t really seem to matter in most content as it would just take 1/5 of 10% more time

As stated it isn’t the 10% damage that matters. Necros are a selfish class and don’t offer anything useful to the party be it defensive or offensive. Example: Guardians do inferior DPS to most classes but have blocks, swiftness, blinds, reflects, etc.

blindness, condition remover, AOE heal, health steal, etc..
all team based, i think it’s time you actually play a necro before you talk crap about a necro, i have bin playing a necro for quite some time and i know very well that necro’s are actually quite selfless if done right.

Windsagio.1340:

Armor stats let you mitigate the stat effects of your trait choices. The lower the equipment stats we have available the more 1-sided characters will have to be.

Then have weapons and armour provide all stats or all primary stats. Stats from traits would go straight back to having their original level of importance.

You’d need to do that to prevent people feeling like they were losing something massive anyway.

I don’t think they are doing that at all, I think they have simply realised that all their meta consists of at the moment is DPS and a large number of people are not happy with it. I’m glad that revenant has some “tank” mechanics to it like taunting