Guild Wars 2

DonQuack.9025:

… never played STO I see.

beside the first 20 levels, STO is actually quite grind free.
i leveled my character to max within 2 weeks and that was without dedicated rushing to level, just think how fast i can do that if i did dedicate my self to level a character.
in GW2 on the other hand it’s a pain to level, not just because of the higher max level but also because the game doesn’t really reward you when leveling up.

if the whole scaling down was allot less noticeable i would not mind but it’s putting a damper on noticeable progress.

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I spend probably 4-5 hours a week raiding. 13 weeks without anything is an anomaly and I have a difficult time believing this claim.

Still, raiding is more entertaining that sitting at a crafting station in GW2 and by far, raiding is not the only end game activity.

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

You mean by grinding gold?

Playing the game.

Edit: dungeons, world bosses, cursed shore events, roaming in level 80 zones killing mobs, etc.

I don’t know about spvp since I don’t play it, but I hear it’s decent too.

So you can do dungeons to do your crafting? That would be great if dungeons would drop specific recipe’s or maybe specific stuff you need but what I have seen all that might drop is some of the mats you need but not in high enough qualities that doing a dungeons to get those mats is rewarding enough. Plus I want mats to be more easy accessible then having to farm dungeons for them, more in the line of mining or farming a mob in a area where it drops a lot of that material (for example blood) so you can just go there for a few minutes to farm the blood you need.

However having to really work hard for a specific item you need or a recipe would be great. But like I said, I have not really seen that (molten facility had it, but that was temporary).

Same for your other examples.

Astralporing.1957:

Lambent.6375:

Playing the game.

Edit: dungeons, world bosses, cursed shore events, roaming in level 80 zones killing mobs, etc.

I don’t know about spvp since I don’t play it, but I hear it’s decent too.

I would never have managed to get enough materials for my ascended gear if i was just “playing the game” (and i am playing since the launch, and playing a lot). I had to go out of my way to gather/buy them. The content i usually play just doesn’t offer good enough rewards. It certainly doesn’t offer enough of the materials i needed.

And by the way, if you ask a random player in (mentioned by you) Cursed Shore why they are doing the events there, 90% of the time the answer will be “farming”. They are not interested in the events themselves (which is understandable, since the zone itself is both boring and ugly). It is just a grind.

Well at least there is something to farm there. However that farm is very long and boring and that is because there you can farm some mats. But they don’t drop a lot and you need a lot of them making it really boring.

Having to farm for 1 item with a very low drop-rate is fine. Having to farm for multiple items (mats) with a pretty good drop-rate is also fine. Having to farm for many items (mats) with a pretty low drop-rate is extremely boring.

3000G for a legendary like Twilight? It is getting really bad.

Rage.9723:

3000G for a legendary like Twilight? It is getting really bad.

Honestly I would not care what a legendary would cost as long as there are viable ways to work towards your legendary direly. Not by 90% grinding gold.

If someona wants to see real boring grind he should try to plex character in eve online by mining….. I assure you after the first month you will have a whole new picture of topic here.

(and as long as you are not willing to pay monthly fee plexing account in eve IS nececity – and most tools for thatyou will have gets you bored after a day of grind without much progress)

still convinced that gw2 is most grindy?
I don’t think so :P

btw. I just screw on legendaries cause by cosmethic way i’m satisfied right now. also don’t like most legendaries. was going to flameseeker prophecy (and except precursor I was halfway to it with very little of actuall grind) but then I’ve got tormented shield into my hands….

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I spend probably 4-5 hours a week raiding. 13 weeks without anything is an anomaly and I have a difficult time believing this claim.

Still, raiding is more entertaining that sitting at a crafting station in GW2 and by far, raiding is not the only end game activity.

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

You mean by grinding gold?

Playing the game.

Edit: dungeons, world bosses, cursed shore events, roaming in level 80 zones killing mobs, etc.

I don’t know about spvp since I don’t play it, but I hear it’s decent too.

So you can do dungeons to do your crafting? That would be great if dungeons would drop specific recipe’s or maybe specific stuff you need but what I have seen all that might drop is some of the mats you need but not in high enough qualities that doing a dungeons to get those mats is rewarding enough. Plus I want mats to be more easy accessible then having to farm dungeons for them, more in the line of mining or farming a mob in a area where it drops a lot of that material (for example blood) so you can just go there for a few minutes to farm the blood you need.

However having to really work hard for a specific item you need or a recipe would be great. But like I said, I have not really seen that (molten facility had it, but that was temporary).

Same for your other examples.

The idea is that would would buy the materials with the money you get from doing dungeons, while selling anything you don’t need for additional funds.

But yeah, I do think they need to add more mobs in game that drop t6 loot.

One would think that you’d have to do some grand questline and travel all over the world for your legendary…But no, you have to grind and play an economic simulator. It’s really quite sad.

But in a game where “everyone wins” we can’t have people with items which show differentiation by skill and/or ability. Everyone is equally miserable and everyone is equally subjected to the most terrible of grinds.

Peeachxd.3786:

So I have slowly been creating Twilight over the past wee while and now looking at the 1k gold pile that I need to raise to afford Dusk at its current Trade Post price im starting to feel like Gw2 is a grind, I know that the developers said that they wanted to make the game feel like it wasnt a grind but I think some of the recent changes and perhaps lack of change has made it into one of the most grindy games I have ever played. does anybody else think that the whole Idea of needing a precurser or puting so much focus on gold has made Gw2 into a grind? because all I seem to be doing when I play is earning gold by grinding different dungeon paths or doing pvp which is kind of a grind aswell to level… :L perhaps ii play wrong.

Just keep trying on the precursor mate. I know how you feel. I play this game from the headstart, I played some betas but lets not count that time cuz its irrelevant. So the thing is, for almost 2 years now I’ve been trying to get precursor. I tried every trick in the book. World bosses, fractals, mystic forge and more mystic forge and some more mystic forge. Couple a weeks ago I finally got dusk, switched it for dawn and made my legendary overnight because I had everything else ready. The gold cost? A little over 500g. Just playing the game for all this time should guarantee you that much gold.

From what I saw, with all the taxes and whatnot it is madness to buy a precursor from the auction house unless you plan on flipping it for higher price. I had to pay a tax of 50g+ to just buy the dawn so yeah, my advice to you, keep trying. And have fun while at it. I never spent a dime on the AH to buy rare items to toss in the mystic forge. I have somewhat high account MF and I obtain the items i toss there or I just buy exotics with dungeon tokens. And I do dungeons because I find them fun, not because I need over 1k tokens to spin the RNG. I was spinning the wheel of fortune (mystic forge) every other day or so.

Good luck, don’t lose hope. It will come!

Ashen.2907:

Teon.5168:

Ashen.2907:

Crafting is a grind. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable involved. It is a detestable chore.

I am not sure how anyone could call crafting a grind. At least leveling one from 0-400. If you have the gold(around 25g), you can go from 0-400 in around an hour. http://www.gw2crafts.net

And if you don’t have the gold, you can still level it at your convenience, using the crafting leveling guides as to what you need to pick up or how much gold you’ll need for a specific part. I suppose if you weren’t using any sort of guide, the crafting could get frustrating as you would have to keep looking at items, how to make them, what was required, etc…….but that is what the guides are for online…..to help make it all easier.

Now if you’re crafting ascended items, yea, I will agree…it becomes a bit of a grind just because of the 1 day timer the game imposes on crafting that stuff, and how costly it is to get a crafter to 500. 400-500 is extremely expensive and can take awhile if you need to farm the stuff needed.

Again, though, crafting in this game is a lot easier than a lot of the older mmorpgs. I remember one I played where you would sit around for hours watching tv mashing a button, waiting for your crafter to make one item and get 1 point……and this went on for weeks and weeks before you got a master level crafter. It was absolutely excruciatingly boring……I would have rather watched grass grow.

As others have said in this thread……the grindy elements of this game are completely optional and not required, unless you’re one of those players that just must have all the bells and whistles……but that is the player’s choice, and that choice carries consequences, e.g. grinding/farming, with it.

I could also see someone calling this game a grind if all they did to level was to kill npcs all day long. (When there are so many different ways to level/gain xp in this game)

Crafting is a grind, for me, because it is a repetitious detestable chore behind which desirable elements are gated. I completely understand that others feel differently about it but keep in mind that others would not consider leveling through combat (killing NPCs) to be grindy.

In general I dont expect that anyone considers a task that they enjoy to be a grind unless the amount of that task required makes it no longer enjoyable.

Next people start to call Character Creation a grind, since it takes soooo long, and is gating you from playing the game

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I spend probably 4-5 hours a week raiding. 13 weeks without anything is an anomaly and I have a difficult time believing this claim.

Still, raiding is more entertaining that sitting at a crafting station in GW2 and by far, raiding is not the only end game activity.

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

You mean by grinding gold?

Playing the game.

Edit: dungeons, world bosses, cursed shore events, roaming in level 80 zones killing mobs, etc.

I don’t know about spvp since I don’t play it, but I hear it’s decent too.

So you can do dungeons to do your crafting? That would be great if dungeons would drop specific recipe’s or maybe specific stuff you need but what I have seen all that might drop is some of the mats you need but not in high enough qualities that doing a dungeons to get those mats is rewarding enough. Plus I want mats to be more easy accessible then having to farm dungeons for them, more in the line of mining or farming a mob in a area where it drops a lot of that material (for example blood) so you can just go there for a few minutes to farm the blood you need.

However having to really work hard for a specific item you need or a recipe would be great. But like I said, I have not really seen that (molten facility had it, but that was temporary).

Same for your other examples.

The idea is that would would buy the materials with the money you get from doing dungeons, while selling anything you don’t need for additional funds.

But yeah, I do think they need to add more mobs in game that drop t6 loot.

Ah ok, so you do the dungeons (or something else) to grind gold to buy the mats.

Wait wasn’t that what I said to begin with.. Grind gold.

Yeah it was:

Devata.6589:

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

Devata.6589:

You mean by grinding gold?

Dark Catalyst.1028:

But in a game where “everyone wins” we can’t have people with items which show differentiation by skill and/or ability. Everyone is equally miserable and everyone is equally subjected to the most terrible of grinds.

Lets not start about socialism in this thread.

Keep it to the grinding subject.

Don’t think I’d call it the “most grindy” game, as far as F2P games go it may be one of the best. I recently came back from Warframe and Vindictus, both solid examples of how F2P can go wrong and smudge over all the gameplay.

But GW2 is certainly grindy. Not the worst, but it’s there. It’s to be expected from a F2P game. There are some times where the grind makes no sense though, like dungeon armor sets.

Smith.1826:

Don’t think I’d call it the “most grindy” game, as far as F2P games go it may be one of the best. I recently came back from Warframe and Vindictus, both solid examples of how F2P can go wrong and smudge over all the gameplay.

But GW2 is certainly grindy. Not the worst, but it’s there. It’s to be expected from a F2P game. There are some times where the grind makes no sense though, like dungeon armor sets.

You are 100% right! For a F2P game it’s not bad and in some F2P games it can be even worse. You know what was one of the reason I was interested in this game? Because I don’t like how the cash-shop focus influences the game as you see in F2P games, so I go for a game that is advertised as B2P and so should generate it’s main income with game and expansion sales (B2P). However this game then turned to going cash-shop focus (like F2P games) and so did get the same negative effects you see in F2P. Maybe not the worse compared with some other F2P games but it for sure is there a lot.

Get rid of the cash-shop if you (Anet) can’t handle it and start selling expansions to generate income instead.

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I spend probably 4-5 hours a week raiding. 13 weeks without anything is an anomaly and I have a difficult time believing this claim.

Still, raiding is more entertaining that sitting at a crafting station in GW2 and by far, raiding is not the only end game activity.

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

You mean by grinding gold?

Playing the game.

Edit: dungeons, world bosses, cursed shore events, roaming in level 80 zones killing mobs, etc.

I don’t know about spvp since I don’t play it, but I hear it’s decent too.

So you can do dungeons to do your crafting? That would be great if dungeons would drop specific recipe’s or maybe specific stuff you need but what I have seen all that might drop is some of the mats you need but not in high enough qualities that doing a dungeons to get those mats is rewarding enough. Plus I want mats to be more easy accessible then having to farm dungeons for them, more in the line of mining or farming a mob in a area where it drops a lot of that material (for example blood) so you can just go there for a few minutes to farm the blood you need.

However having to really work hard for a specific item you need or a recipe would be great. But like I said, I have not really seen that (molten facility had it, but that was temporary).

Same for your other examples.

The idea is that would would buy the materials with the money you get from doing dungeons, while selling anything you don’t need for additional funds.

But yeah, I do think they need to add more mobs in game that drop t6 loot.

Ah ok, so you do the dungeons (or something else) to grind gold to buy the mats.

Wait wasn’t that what I said to begin with.. Grind gold.

Yeah it was:

Devata.6589:

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

Devata.6589:

You mean by grinding gold?

No, you do the dungeons if you enjoy them, and get gold as a reward that can be used to work toward some of your in game goals. If someone does not like doing dungeons, and view them as just as grinding gold, they have other options. (unless the very activity of grinding gold is an activity they like )

Devata.6589:

You are 100% right! For a F2P game it’s not bad and in some F2P games it can be even worse. You know what was one of the reason I was interested in this game? Because I don’t like how the cash-shop focus influences the game as you see in F2P games, so I go for a game that is advertised as B2P and so should generate it’s main income with game and expansion sales (B2P). However this game then turned to going cash-shop focus (like F2P games) and so did get the same negative effects you see in F2P. Maybe not the worse compared with some other F2P games but it for sure is there a lot.

Get rid of the cash-shop if you (Anet) can’t handle it and start selling expansions to generate income instead.

Agreed. I went into GW2 with the same expectation: expansion packs. Not only was it what they did for GW1, but it worked for me. Thus far I’ve only paid for the box price of the game, and while that’s $50 more than I ever spent on a f2p game, it’s only a fifth of what I spent on GW1.

It’s not an easy thing to ask for: “Hey Anet, change your business model!”, but one can hope. Blizzard did it with D3, and the result is a game that’s way more rewarding, and that’s $40 more than I ever spent since it’s initial release with the RMAH.

Beldin.5498:

Ashen.2907:

Teon.5168:

Ashen.2907:

Crafting is a grind. There is absolutely nothing enjoyable involved. It is a detestable chore.

I am not sure how anyone could call crafting a grind. At least leveling one from 0-400. If you have the gold(around 25g), you can go from 0-400 in around an hour. http://www.gw2crafts.net

And if you don’t have the gold, you can still level it at your convenience, using the crafting leveling guides as to what you need to pick up or how much gold you’ll need for a specific part. I suppose if you weren’t using any sort of guide, the crafting could get frustrating as you would have to keep looking at items, how to make them, what was required, etc…….but that is what the guides are for online…..to help make it all easier.

Now if you’re crafting ascended items, yea, I will agree…it becomes a bit of a grind just because of the 1 day timer the game imposes on crafting that stuff, and how costly it is to get a crafter to 500. 400-500 is extremely expensive and can take awhile if you need to farm the stuff needed.

Again, though, crafting in this game is a lot easier than a lot of the older mmorpgs. I remember one I played where you would sit around for hours watching tv mashing a button, waiting for your crafter to make one item and get 1 point……and this went on for weeks and weeks before you got a master level crafter. It was absolutely excruciatingly boring……I would have rather watched grass grow.

As others have said in this thread……the grindy elements of this game are completely optional and not required, unless you’re one of those players that just must have all the bells and whistles……but that is the player’s choice, and that choice carries consequences, e.g. grinding/farming, with it.

I could also see someone calling this game a grind if all they did to level was to kill npcs all day long. (When there are so many different ways to level/gain xp in this game)

Crafting is a grind, for me, because it is a repetitious detestable chore behind which desirable elements are gated. I completely understand that others feel differently about it but keep in mind that others would not consider leveling through combat (killing NPCs) to be grindy.

In general I dont expect that anyone considers a task that they enjoy to be a grind unless the amount of that task required makes it no longer enjoyable.

Next people start to call Character Creation a grind, since it takes soooo long, and is gating you from playing the game

Nice stretch.

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Devata.6589:

Lambent.6375:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

I spend probably 4-5 hours a week raiding. 13 weeks without anything is an anomaly and I have a difficult time believing this claim.

Still, raiding is more entertaining that sitting at a crafting station in GW2 and by far, raiding is not the only end game activity.

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

You mean by grinding gold?

Playing the game.

Edit: dungeons, world bosses, cursed shore events, roaming in level 80 zones killing mobs, etc.

I don’t know about spvp since I don’t play it, but I hear it’s decent too.

So you can do dungeons to do your crafting? That would be great if dungeons would drop specific recipe’s or maybe specific stuff you need but what I have seen all that might drop is some of the mats you need but not in high enough qualities that doing a dungeons to get those mats is rewarding enough. Plus I want mats to be more easy accessible then having to farm dungeons for them, more in the line of mining or farming a mob in a area where it drops a lot of that material (for example blood) so you can just go there for a few minutes to farm the blood you need.

However having to really work hard for a specific item you need or a recipe would be great. But like I said, I have not really seen that (molten facility had it, but that was temporary).

Same for your other examples.

The idea is that would would buy the materials with the money you get from doing dungeons, while selling anything you don’t need for additional funds.

But yeah, I do think they need to add more mobs in game that drop t6 loot.

Ah ok, so you do the dungeons (or something else) to grind gold to buy the mats.

Wait wasn’t that what I said to begin with.. Grind gold.

Yeah it was:

Devata.6589:

The only long part about crafting is gathering the materials, which can be done using different methods by just playing the game.

Devata.6589:

You mean by grinding gold?

No, you do the dungeons if you enjoy them, and get gold as a reward that can be used to work toward some of your in game goals. If someone does not like doing dungeons, and view them as just as grinding gold, they have other options. (unless the very activity of grinding gold is an activity they like )

We where talking about working towards something. Or to be more specific, you reacted to somebody talking about how crafting is a grind. So that was about working towards a crafting level. That game-play part requires a grind for gold. You then say you can earn the money with dungeons by playing dungeons so sorry but then you are grinding gold for crafting. I can not make it any better.

I like work towards skins and mini (well I did in other MMO’s) but I don’t like grinding gold (in what way) to earn the gold to then buy everything I need / want. You don’t see how that is a different form of game-play and how the gold-grind devalues the item.

Lambent.6375:

(unless the very activity of grinding gold is an activity they like )

The very activity of hunting down an item, having to travel the world for it or do a specific dungeon (or other content) for it is the activity I like.

I loved crafting in some MMO’s where the activity crafting meanly mend going in the world to hunt down recipe’s or one specific item you need, most mats (the stuff you need a lot of) are then easy accessible.

I like the activity of doing a dungeons once or twice (if it’s just for the dungeon) and when working towards an item that might drop in the dungeon but I don’t like the activity of grinding dungeons (or most other content) to earn money to buy the items.

Can’t you see how that are different activities and so when you take out the hunt there is a gold-grind left?

It’s (for me) not even close to fun to see the money slowly go up to the point where I want it, and just doing a dungeon to do the dungeons is also not fun to me. Having a direct goal for it (the drop) that is what is fun. Every single time that rush.. will it drop. Or will I beat it (if it’s a garanteed drop).

Also the reward itself is then much more satisfying and has a greater value to me.

There is no arguing with the white knights is it?
They’ve been running around in circles for months doing champ trains all this time screaming " NO Grind! Just optional"
From all that dizziness I guess they started believing it too.
Kudos to Anet though. The cosmetic illusion is a brilliant one. Fooling so many people into believing that no power gain means no grind.
Yet most of the players do tedious stuff every day for gold, while Anet is nerfing, time locking and deleting every source of income. Cuz gems, right.
This isn’t even amusing anymore, it’s tragic.

Ionut.2307:

There is no arguing with the white knights is it?
They’ve been running around in circles for months doing champ trains all this time screaming " NO Grind! Just optional"
From all that dizziness I guess they started believing it too.
Kudos to Anet though. The cosmetic illusion is a brilliant one. Fooling so many people into believing that no power gain means no grind.
Yet most of the players do tedious stuff every day for gold, while Anet is nerfing, time locking and deleting every source of income. Cuz gems, right.
This isn’t even amusing anymore, it’s tragic.

They sure managed to capitalize on the tendiness of bashing WoW and related “traditional” MMOs, didn’t they?

Especially hilarious, because WoW is implementing more stuff from GW2’s “manifesto” then GW2 itself. I log onto WoW and I have plenty of fun stuff to do. I log into GW2, frown at my daily chore list, sit around for 20 minutes and then log off. Nothing really gets my attention enough to care.

Peeachxd.3786:

does anybody else think that the whole Idea of needing a precurser or puting so much focus on gold has made Gw2 into a grind?

Yeasayers will tell you that you don’t have to grind anything to play the game and so, this is probably the less grindy game ever.

Of course, they forget that you don’t have to grind anything in any mmorpg if you don’t want to do it. By doing so (not grinding), you are left with sub par equipment and as such cannot competitively clear the high end content.

The thing is that… GW2 doesn’t have high end content! So, duh, no need to grind to play it. Get it?

And here comes the evil part: even though there is no high end content, Anet still gives you unending grind if you want it. Just don’t complain about it.

Me, I only play the game if it’s entertaining. That means I haven’t crafted my ascendeds, I haven’t done fractals 40 (lost interest around 24), will never have a legendary weapon and…. cannot find too many reasons to keep playing, to be frank.

I just don’t get you guys – as for me you are making it grinding willfully and by thus in some cases destroying your own feeling of game :/

as for me: I don’t have much issues with gold – I’m just having fun while playing some stuff (like wvw) sometimes I’m just roaming pve and “by the way” collecting some stuff or just salvage loot from wvw – I get bunch of good mats from those.
and I used to stock all those materials ores etc. into my bank – cause for the heck of it.
and from time to time I have some wild idea and to get it done – if its gold needed I’m just seeling out some of those – and whoah so much gold :P

also I really like AC explo actually atm my fav dungeon so from time to time I’m checking it out.
also from time to time I’m checking out if cof p1/p2 is still so easy and fast to do

I think that grind or not grind is actually matter of how we approach topic – if one is running everyday cof p1/p2 he is actually grinding – still more fun than mining in eve but ok its somekind of grind.

but some are doing it daily (rare breed tho) cause they just can’t stand the temptation of beating yet more flame legion guys to kill another searing effigy or once again forbid the leader of flame legion to come back to life.

or just never get bored of trying to kill thay boss yet faster :P

@lonut I have no idea what your point is.
no power gain from grind=no forcement into it
you don’t have to have all ascended stuff – exotics are currently cheapy and are in most cases good aswell – the only matter where I can see the point of going full ascended are extremely high level of fractals

and also again the question: are they really do it against themselves just to get some shiny weapon or maybe big part of them seems it funny to rush with other players to kill a bosses do events etc.?

grind is bad when you are forced to do it without no fun involved (mentioned by me above mining for plexing account in eve online – srsly if you want to not have pay the subscription fee then time-efficient methods to do it that also provide some fun are not only very limited but also requires you to play for longer amount of time (phew month at least) to get proper ships modules skills for all of it – actually the best option in that case requires you nearly a year to get into it – and then you have to somehow last so long amount of time don’t you? this is real grind my firend :P – or if sample of eve online seems to asbractional for you closer to gw2 – have you even tried get any tormented weapon from Domain of Anguish (epicly well suited name for it seriously) back in gw nightfall? you have nothing like that in gw2 – even getting legendary as surely takes more time is far more interesting)

EDIT: cause some folks answered while I was typing lol
@Dark Catalyst and now we are in quite opposition – I’ll never understand whats so “fun” in WoW but I found many fun while playing guild wars 2 – maybe difference into approach or maybe we just like other kind of stuff – I’ll never get bored of WvW… unless it will go too deep into mindless zerging but shoosh :P
@Aenesthesia I think your point need to define what do you mean by “high end content” f.e. in some definitions I’ve seen WvW warfare can count as such – but you are ok with cheapy exotic set there – crap even more! I’ve already seen thousands of folks that were yet leveling their chars while having fun with wvw so it does not require any “grind” to play but can be counted as “high end content” and keyphrase of your sentecne mentioning grind is “if you want it”. “If you want it” you can find extreme amount of grind in any freakin game (I still remember one of reviews where reviewer staded that gw2 is “all about grind” because “xp drop from killing mobs is so low” yeah he tried to lvl up char with just killing random mobs on the map)

and tbh if you ask me then I’ll tell you thatlegendaries are overadvertised – not so great looking with only one thing I’ve heard they were to implement – just don’t know if they did – and only thing that would make me rush or sth toward any legendary is that they’re told to have possibility of swapping stats while out of combat – period no more reason for me to get one – since they gave me tormented shield :P

Lord Trejgon.2809:

I think that grind or not grind is actually matter of how we approach topic – if one is running everyday cof p1/p2 he is actually grinding – still more fun than mining in eve but ok its somekind of grind.

but some are doing it daily (rare breed tho) cause they just can’t stand the temptation of beating yet more flame legion guys to kill another searing effigy or once again forbid the leader of flame legion to come back to life.

or just never get bored of trying to kill thay boss yet faster :P

@lonut I have no idea what your point is.
no power gain from grind=no forcement into it
you don’t have to have all ascended stuff – exotics are currently cheapy and are in most cases good aswell – the only matter where I can see the point of going full ascended are extremely high level of fractals

and also again the question: are they really do it against themselves just to get some shiny weapon or maybe big part of them seems it funny to rush with other players to kill a bosses do events etc.?

grind is bad when you are forced to do it without no fun involved (mentioned by me above mining for plexing account in eve online – srsly if you want to not have pay the subscription fee then time-efficient methods to do it that also provide some fun are not only very limited but also requires you to play for longer amount of time (phew month at least) to get proper ships modules skills for all of it – actually the best option in that case requires you nearly a year to get into it – and then you have to somehow last so long amount of time don’t you? this is real grind my firend :P – or if sample of eve online seems to asbractional for you closer to gw2 – have you even tried get any tormented weapon from Domain of Anguish (epicly well suited name for it seriously) back in gw nightfall? you have nothing like that in gw2 – even getting legendary as surely takes more time is far more interesting)

Maybe you have another idea of interesting. And it does not matter if it’s about shiny’s or stats. Everything is optional, it’s a game. Some like stats some like skins.

Will there be people who like the gold-grind, for sure but many don’t and without gold-grind being the only option for many things it does not mean that it’s not an option anymore. When items are not account-bound (some should be , some should not) they will end up on the TP and so those who like to grind gold still can. Problem is that in the current system those who want to work directly for the item’s can’t.

About people who might like grinding gold or ‘just do there dungeons’. In one of WoodenPatatoes last video’s he was saying he was doing dungeon runs daily because he wanted a legendary. Now he may have fun doing so but the primary reason doing the dungeons is not doing the dungeon, it is getting the money to buy what he needs (so grinding gold). Just like most champ trains you see.. Those people are all grinding gold, you know that right?

Now I would prefer working for that reward directly, not for gold.

The only reason I can think of, it works the way it does, is because if you turn everything into a gold-grind you are more likely to sell gems for gold. (just as why we have many temporary content, harder to grind gold to convert to gems and create that time-pressure feeling, get it now or lose out forever. It has not much to do with a changing world, it’s pure marketing.) If you put mini’s in the game behind specific content there might be less gem-sales (or at lease the necessary would be less) Now you can buy your grind of with gems. However that is no excuse for a B2P game, it would be an excuse for a F2P game. There whole cash-shop focus is no excuse as it’s a B2P game. Want our money, don’t trick people who can’t stand the pressure and marketing tricks in buying gems but sell us expansions. Fair trait vs manipulation of the weak. And you even end up with a higher quality game.

korelg.7862:

when I see these posts I chuckle… poor souls, don’t know what the real grind is

EQ1 was grindier…but then again. I enjoyed each and every level from Character creation, through tutorial, to level 1… bat wing farming for higher level players.. 5 plat a stack… getting group teleport spells, selling TP’s to groups of players… hunting down panthers for pelts selling for money for armor…taking part of an economy that actually worked because levelling was slooooooowwwww and fun.

Then Platinum sword farming In Highhold keep… getting bad faction, avoiding human guards on my dark Elf elementalist….

It’s amazing How when you are playing it, you don’t realize How memorable such experiences are going to be years later…. simply because of the challenge…

I had Just gotten my Group teleport spells on My druid, I went to buy them, a guy In the karanas asks me if i will TP him for 50 platinum = 5,000,000 copper… for comparison. I say sure, he asks me to wait by the Dryid Rings.. so suddenly I hear.. flap….flap……flap….. everyone else starts to run. I turn to see this Big friggen Bird… coming to the rings…red conned and no level…just a skull… = “Run Like a kitten”…I try, it catches up..eats me in 3 bites…. the sucker cost me that 50 platinum TP…. he still owes me 50 platinum, and I still remember it.

Ask me about Playing WoW….Not as memorable, then again, I hit level cap In a few weeks.

Don’t even let me get started On hell levels.

No gw2 is Nowhere near the grindiest game I’ve ever played. This game is cake, compared to eq1. Then again… eq1 is mem0rable in ways gw2 isn’t. maybe becausede eq1 was more challenging, took longer, and reaching level cap , actually felt like an accomplishment.

Devata.6589:

Having contact lock behind something they usually call tier grind or or type of locked content (locked behind stats or something else). Not just ‘grind’. Then again pretty much every mmo has that including GW2. You can’t do Arah with a lvl 1 character. That is less in Gw2 then in most games but it’s also in GW2.

So you are down to supporting your claim of “tier grind” based on the fact that a player cannot access the final Dungeon in the game with a starting character? This is the ultimate in exaggeration….name me ANY (video) game that has ever been made that does not have “tier grind” by your definition? You can’t put down your winning X in Tic-Tac-Toe without putting down the first 2 Xs…..

That definition is just silly and nowhere NEAR what “Tier Grind” really is. You are certainly welcome to believe that definition, but don’t get upset when others point out how flawed it is and immediately assume all your other insights and claims (that may be valid) must be the same due to a general lack of credibility.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Devata.6589:

Having contact lock behind something they usually call tier grind or or type of locked content (locked behind stats or something else). Not just ‘grind’. Then again pretty much every mmo has that including GW2. You can’t do Arah with a lvl 1 character. That is less in Gw2 then in most games but it’s also in GW2.

So you are down to supporting your claim of “tier grind” based on the fact that a player cannot access the final Dungeon in the game with a starting character? This is the ultimate in exaggeration….name me ANY (video) game that has ever been made that does not have “tier grind” by your definition? You can’t put down your winning X in Tic-Tac-Toe without putting down the first 2 Xs…..

That definition is just silly and nowhere NEAR what “Tier Grind” really is. You are certainly welcome to believe that definition, but don’t get upset when others point out how flawed it is and immediately assume all your other insights and claims (that may be valid) must be the same due to a general lack of credibility.

First off all, the point of that comment was to state that ‘tier grind’ is not just the definition of grind in general. It was not to state that GW2 had a tier-grind.

Secondly, I did indeed say that having content locked content you see in any game.

“Then again pretty much every mmo has that including GW2. ”

So I would suggest reading better before posting. You are complaining about how I basically say that GW2 has a tier-grind but that I take the definition way to lose and that by that definition any game has that… Well guess what.. that is exactly what I said. Again the comment was just about a general grind and how that is more then just tier-grind. Unrelated to the question if GW2 has some big tier-grind problem or whatever seemed to have hurt your feelings.

Relax.

Nerelith.7360:

korelg.7862:

when I see these posts I chuckle… poor souls, don’t know what the real grind is

EQ1 was grindier…but then again. I enjoyed each and every level from Character creation, through tutorial, to level 1… bat wing farming for higher level players.. 5 plat a stack… getting group teleport spells, selling TP’s to groups of players… hunting down panthers for pelts selling for money for armor…taking part of an economy that actually worked because levelling was slooooooowwwww and fun.

Then Platinum sword farming In Highhold keep… getting bad faction, avoiding human guards on my dark Elf elementalist….

It’s amazing How when you are playing it, you don’t realize How memorable such experiences are going to be years later…. simply because of the challenge…

I had Just gotten my Group teleport spells on My druid, I went to buy them, a guy In the karanas asks me if i will TP him for 50 platinum = 5,000,000 copper… for comparison. I say sure, he asks me to wait by the Dryid Rings.. so suddenly I hear.. flap….flap……flap….. everyone else starts to run. I turn to see this Big friggen Bird… coming to the rings…red conned and no level…just a skull… = “Run Like a kitten”…I try, it catches up..eats me in 3 bites…. the sucker cost me that 50 platinum TP…. he still owes me 50 platinum, and I still remember it.

Ask me about Playing WoW….Not as memorable, then again, I hit level cap In a few weeks.

Don’t even let me get started On hell levels.

No gw2 is Nowhere near the grindiest game I’ve ever played. This game is cake, compared to eq1. Then again… eq1 is mem0rable in ways gw2 isn’t. maybe becausede eq1 was more challenging, took longer, and reaching level cap , actually felt like an accomplishment.

I did not play EQN2 but the way you define grind is not what I and many people are complaining about. The the endless gold-grind that people complain about.

I would love to in fact have to do something for my rewards.. something specific, not just grinding gold because as you say, that is much more memorable.

Devata.6589:

I did not play EQN2 but the way you define grind is not what I and many people are complaining about. The the endless gold-grind that people complain about.

I would love to in fact have to do something for my rewards.. something specific, not just grinding gold because as you say, that is much more memorable.

The thing is, from the way many " Modern Gamers" use the term " grind", it seems to me that what you now consider grind… we who have been around since UO, EQ1, CoH, SWG…DAoC… yes, the “pre-World of Warcraft” era, before MMO’s were so simplified, that players can expect and demand… level cap in a week… etc… We called " Playing the Game."

Playing the game, meant you did not reach level cap for at least 6 months to maybe 9 months.

Playing the game meant that the Item you wanted…The EverQuest Epic for your class, took many different quests, some you could do alone, some you needed a couple of people to help…some you needed a whole guild to take down some world Boss… and back then World Bosses made grenth and Lyssa Look… weak.

Back then… an Epic… was so much More difficult to get than a legendary, and was Not something you could Buy off anyone else. It was soulbound on acquire.

Back then the best rewards were things you had to work for… fact is…whoever got their Epic probably worked on it for 6 to 9 months….after reaching level cap….. if they were lucky.

Today’s gamers toss the word " Grind" around as if they knew what a grind was. If they were ever to try a “real” MMO, and Not these " MMO-lites." That have become common since WoW simplified, and … eliminated most of what playing an MMO was, they would rage quit and whine about " This is just boring grinding!"

Back then… buying In game Gold with cash was anathema. People that did it were not " the average gamer." but seen as lazy. back then people that griefed others, trolls, were ostracized In games where being ostracized meant you could not get content accompliahed. You needed help from others. and that led to a feeling of community.

I have to laugh when I see threads like this… " grind" .. today’s players simply have no conception of what a true grind is, since Not many games since WoW revolutionized the MMO Genre, By simplifying it to " level cap in a week, because…. The game begins at level cap." has any grind in it. Anything that might extend the longevity or even make the game more entertaining, by making it more challenging is shouted down as " Boring grind..I’ll rage quit and take my money with me."

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Nerelith.7360:

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Interesting. I have played multiplayer rpg games since a very long time ago (though they weren’t called MMOs then, but MUDs, and weren’t graphical but telnet-based). The effort needed to gain levels and acquire gear/gold in those was indeed incomparable to what we have today (and was approached only by the early generation of first MMOs). The thing is, nobody actually liked that. The “real” game (getting top tier gear, and what was the then equivalent of raids) started only after you levelled up to the top, and acquired “passable” (meaning – ridiculously strong, and already hard to get) gear. Getting to that point was a phase that everyone wanted to skip as fast as possible. It was, even then, a grind.

It’s not the most grindy ever.

But if you talk about the Most Mindless Grind, it is. On GW2 the grind is incredible random, specially due our amazing loot system where everything can drop everywhere.

Sorry, but in GW2 I have never reached the end of a zone and realized that if I have any hope of surviving in the next zone I’m going to have to hang out here and just kill random stuff for a while to level up. That to me is the grind of MMOs. Grindiest game ever? Not even remotely.

Astralporing.1957:

Nerelith.7360:

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Interesting. I have played multiplayer rpg games since a very long time ago (though they weren’t called MMOs then, but MUDs, and weren’t graphical but telnet-based). The effort needed to gain levels and acquire gear/gold in those was indeed incomparable to what we have today (and was approached only by the early generation of first MMOs). The thing is, nobody actually liked that. The “real” game (getting top tier gear, and what was the then equivalent of raids) started only after you levelled up to the top, and acquired “passable” (meaning – ridiculously strong, and already hard to get) gear. Getting to that point was a phase that everyone wanted to skip as fast as possible. It was, even then, a grind.

This! 100% this. You can’t even begin to compare a game like GW2 to what an actual grind in MMOs is like. Kids today are coddled and hand fed every little thing. Once upon a time the entirety of the game was just a grind to get to the actual game at the end of it all, where things started to solidify into a story with real content. In GW2 you get that from the beginning at the loss of having it in any major quantity after the end.

I don’t think the OP has ever played another MMO before. Guild Wars 2 is far far far from being the most grindy game ever. There’s not even a required grind to complete the content.

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

I did not play EQN2 but the way you define grind is not what I and many people are complaining about. The the endless gold-grind that people complain about.

I would love to in fact have to do something for my rewards.. something specific, not just grinding gold because as you say, that is much more memorable.

The thing is, from the way many " Modern Gamers" use the term " grind", it seems to me that what you now consider grind… we who have been around since UO, EQ1, CoH, SWG…DAoC… yes, the “pre-World of Warcraft” era, before MMO’s were so simplified, that players can expect and demand… level cap in a week… etc… We called " Playing the Game."

Playing the game, meant you did not reach level cap for at least 6 months to maybe 9 months.

Playing the game meant that the Item you wanted…The EverQuest Epic for your class, took many different quests, some you could do alone, some you needed a couple of people to help…some you needed a whole guild to take down some world Boss… and back then World Bosses made grenth and Lyssa Look… weak.

Back then… an Epic… was so much More difficult to get than a legendary, and was Not something you could Buy off anyone else. It was soulbound on acquire.

Back then the best rewards were things you had to work for… fact is…whoever got their Epic probably worked on it for 6 to 9 months….after reaching level cap….. if they were lucky.

Today’s gamers toss the word " Grind" around as if they knew what a grind was. If they were ever to try a “real” MMO, and Not these " MMO-lites." That have become common since WoW simplified, and … eliminated most of what playing an MMO was, they would rage quit and whine about " This is just boring grinding!"

Back then… buying In game Gold with cash was anathema. People that did it were not " the average gamer." but seen as lazy. back then people that griefed others, trolls, were ostracized In games where being ostracized meant you could not get content accompliahed. You needed help from others. and that led to a feeling of community.

I have to laugh when I see threads like this… " grind" .. today’s players simply have no conception of what a true grind is, since Not many games since WoW revolutionized the MMO Genre, By simplifying it to " level cap in a week, because…. The game begins at level cap." has any grind in it. Anything that might extend the longevity or even make the game more entertaining, by making it more challenging is shouted down as " Boring grind..I’ll rage quit and take my money with me."

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Most of what you name I don’t consider grind. Like I said, it’s the fact that you have to grind gold to get anything in the game in stead of working for it.

I can’t say I do belong to the “back then we played real MMO’s” because back then I did not play MMO’s I did play other games. However I don’t mind if leveling takes long. I do understand why games make leveling shorter, thats imho not so much to prevent grinding but to keep stuff replay able and don’t make it to hard for new players that come 3 expansions down the road.

Anyway, I would not care if leveling would take very long, I don’t consider leveling grinding.. Well you can make it a grind but by itself it does not have to be. The problem in GW2 is the gold. Want a mini? Get gold, want a skin? Get gold, want a legendary? Get gold, want to level crafting? Get gold.

Yeah then all that collecting gold is grinding gold to me and many others.

Max Lexandre.6279:

It’s not the most grindy ever.

But if you talk about the Most Mindless Grind, it is. On GW2 the grind is incredible random, specially due our amazing loot system where everything can drop everywhere.

And because of that it all becomes a gold grind. You do stuff to get gold (selling the items you get but don’t want) to then buy what you want.

But heey, you can buy gems and convert them to gold. To bad how the cash-shop focus influence the game in a bad way.

I have been complaining about that for a long time now, before I did get a lot of “no because it’s not P2W”.. and then they mend, P2Kill. Now I see more and more people coming to the concluding that in fact it does effect the game in a negative way.

Only thing we can really do is not buy gems.

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

I did not play EQN2 but the way you define grind is not what I and many people are complaining about. The the endless gold-grind that people complain about.

I would love to in fact have to do something for my rewards.. something specific, not just grinding gold because as you say, that is much more memorable.

The thing is, from the way many " Modern Gamers" use the term " grind", it seems to me that what you now consider grind… we who have been around since UO, EQ1, CoH, SWG…DAoC… yes, the “pre-World of Warcraft” era, before MMO’s were so simplified, that players can expect and demand… level cap in a week… etc… We called " Playing the Game."

Playing the game, meant you did not reach level cap for at least 6 months to maybe 9 months.

Playing the game meant that the Item you wanted…The EverQuest Epic for your class, took many different quests, some you could do alone, some you needed a couple of people to help…some you needed a whole guild to take down some world Boss… and back then World Bosses made grenth and Lyssa Look… weak.

Back then… an Epic… was so much More difficult to get than a legendary, and was Not something you could Buy off anyone else. It was soulbound on acquire.

Back then the best rewards were things you had to work for… fact is…whoever got their Epic probably worked on it for 6 to 9 months….after reaching level cap….. if they were lucky.

Today’s gamers toss the word " Grind" around as if they knew what a grind was. If they were ever to try a “real” MMO, and Not these " MMO-lites." That have become common since WoW simplified, and … eliminated most of what playing an MMO was, they would rage quit and whine about " This is just boring grinding!"

Back then… buying In game Gold with cash was anathema. People that did it were not " the average gamer." but seen as lazy. back then people that griefed others, trolls, were ostracized In games where being ostracized meant you could not get content accompliahed. You needed help from others. and that led to a feeling of community.

I have to laugh when I see threads like this… " grind" .. today’s players simply have no conception of what a true grind is, since Not many games since WoW revolutionized the MMO Genre, By simplifying it to " level cap in a week, because…. The game begins at level cap." has any grind in it. Anything that might extend the longevity or even make the game more entertaining, by making it more challenging is shouted down as " Boring grind..I’ll rage quit and take my money with me."

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Nerelith, I could not agree with you more, as you pretty much summed up all my feelings about absurd threads such as this one! Excellent post!

And Devata, of course one had to grind gold(on a much longer/larger scale than gw2) in those older mmos. One had to grind for nearly everything in those older games.

Astralporing.1957:

Nerelith.7360:

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Interesting. I have played multiplayer rpg games since a very long time ago (though they weren’t called MMOs then, but MUDs, and weren’t graphical but telnet-based). The effort needed to gain levels and acquire gear/gold in those was indeed incomparable to what we have today (and was approached only by the early generation of first MMOs). The thing is, nobody actually liked that. The “real” game (getting top tier gear, and what was the then equivalent of raids) started only after you levelled up to the top, and acquired “passable” (meaning – ridiculously strong, and already hard to get) gear. Getting to that point was a phase that everyone wanted to skip as fast as possible. It was, even then, a grind.

Oh man, that brings back memories……text based games……am old enough to actually remember those….lol. And amazingly enough, I knew a few people in those older mmos and such that actually enjoyed the grind…..the horrible, tedious, never ending grind. (“wow, look….I got a whole level this last week!!!!!…..woot!!!!”) I suppose I even enjoyed it, too, to some extent…..it was some sort of badge of honor getting through those grinds with your sanity still intact. But I was much younger, with a very different attitude than I now have.

And yea, gw2 is ez mode(comparably)…..but I am to the point now where I want that in an mmo…….enough of playing a ‘game’ like it’s a go-nowhere job….bleh.

Teon.5168:

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

I did not play EQN2 but the way you define grind is not what I and many people are complaining about. The the endless gold-grind that people complain about.

I would love to in fact have to do something for my rewards.. something specific, not just grinding gold because as you say, that is much more memorable.

The thing is, from the way many " Modern Gamers" use the term " grind", it seems to me that what you now consider grind… we who have been around since UO, EQ1, CoH, SWG…DAoC… yes, the “pre-World of Warcraft” era, before MMO’s were so simplified, that players can expect and demand… level cap in a week… etc… We called " Playing the Game."

Playing the game, meant you did not reach level cap for at least 6 months to maybe 9 months.

Playing the game meant that the Item you wanted…The EverQuest Epic for your class, took many different quests, some you could do alone, some you needed a couple of people to help…some you needed a whole guild to take down some world Boss… and back then World Bosses made grenth and Lyssa Look… weak.

Back then… an Epic… was so much More difficult to get than a legendary, and was Not something you could Buy off anyone else. It was soulbound on acquire.

Back then the best rewards were things you had to work for… fact is…whoever got their Epic probably worked on it for 6 to 9 months….after reaching level cap….. if they were lucky.

Today’s gamers toss the word " Grind" around as if they knew what a grind was. If they were ever to try a “real” MMO, and Not these " MMO-lites." That have become common since WoW simplified, and … eliminated most of what playing an MMO was, they would rage quit and whine about " This is just boring grinding!"

Back then… buying In game Gold with cash was anathema. People that did it were not " the average gamer." but seen as lazy. back then people that griefed others, trolls, were ostracized In games where being ostracized meant you could not get content accompliahed. You needed help from others. and that led to a feeling of community.

I have to laugh when I see threads like this… " grind" .. today’s players simply have no conception of what a true grind is, since Not many games since WoW revolutionized the MMO Genre, By simplifying it to " level cap in a week, because…. The game begins at level cap." has any grind in it. Anything that might extend the longevity or even make the game more entertaining, by making it more challenging is shouted down as " Boring grind..I’ll rage quit and take my money with me."

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Nerelith, I could not agree with you more, as you pretty much summed up all my feelings about absurd threads such as this one! Excellent post!

And Devata, of course one had to grind gold(on a much longer/larger scale than gw2) in those older mmos. One had to grind for nearly everything in those older games.

So if you had to ‘grind’ for everything then why still need money? When you grind for the stuff you don’t need money to buy it. Anyway, if it’s so that indeed you had to grind money all the time in those games to buy the items you wanted instead of working directly towards those items, the way I like it then those games must not have been a lot of fun.

However, I have the feeling that you mainly mean it was very hard to get an item or to level up. That is something else then grinding and then in fact it might be exactly what I want. Of course then getting back to the question, if I work towards the items I want then I would not need (so much) gold to buy it.

Devata.6589:

Most of what you name I don’t consider grind. Like I said, it’s the fact that you have to grind gold to get anything in the game in stead of working for it.

I can’t say I do belong to the “back then we played real MMO’s” because back then I did not play MMO’s I did play other games. However I don’t mind if leveling takes long.

How do you know you wouldn’t consider it all a grind, if you never played any of the older mmos?

Yours’ and other’s complaints about the ‘grind for gold’ in this game pretty much proves to me, imo, that you and others would absolutely detest the grind for everything in the older mmos…….one didn’t just grind for levels, or gold, or elite items…..there was a grind for nearly everything in the game.

Not trying to state the “when I was your age had to walk through 6 feet of snow for 10 miles bare naked to get to school” sort of nonsense. It’s just that the mmos back in the pre Wow days just thought that everyone wanted to play an mmorpg that required the players to mindlessly grind for absurd amounts of time. The definition of ‘grind’ has changed so, so much over the years…….it’s just difficult for me to call much of anything in this game a grind, in the true sense of the word, imo.

Devata.6589:

So if you had to ‘grind’ for everything then why still need money? When you grind for the stuff you don’t need money to buy it. Anyway, if it’s so that indeed you had to grind money all the time in those games to buy the items you wanted instead of working directly towards those items, the way I like it then those games must not have been a lot of fun.

However, I have the feeling that you mainly mean it was very hard to get an item or to level up. That is something else then grinding and then in fact it might be exactly what I want. Of course then getting back to the question, if I work towards the items I want then I would not need (so much) gold to buy it.

This is exactly my point. You just don’t really have any sort of real understanding of what some of the old time mmo players here say about the older games and the grind. Of course you also had to grind for gold, as some of the games’ elements required ‘buys’ instead of drops, such as housing, mounts, crafting tools, etc. That was in addition to the grinding for levels, drops, gear……running grindy, horribly time consuming large group missions for certain types of special abilities, etc….having to regrind due to a death of your player where you lost gear, coin, ranking, etc……the list goes on an on and on……blech.

I guess I will just have to respectfully disagree with you. From what you have said, especially when you consider GW2 to be some sort of awful gold ‘grind’, I feel that you would completely detest the grind of the older games. But I certainly could be wrong. I did know people back then that enjoyed those massive time sinks…..maybe you might have been one of them. I certainly tolerated them myself back when…….but am now glad that some of the mmorpgs are now removing those incredible time wasting sinkholes.

Not trying to pick any sort of fight…..just disagreeing with your perception of it all.

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Most of what you name I don’t consider grind. Like I said, it’s the fact that you have to grind gold to get anything in the game in stead of working for it.

I can’t say I do belong to the “back then we played real MMO’s” because back then I did not play MMO’s I did play other games. However I don’t mind if leveling takes long.

How do you know you wouldn’t consider it all a grind, if you never played any of the older mmos?

Yours’ and other’s complaints about the ‘grind for gold’ in this game pretty much proves to me, imo, that you and others would absolutely detest the grind for everything in the older mmos…….one didn’t just grind for levels, or gold, or elite items…..there was a grind for nearly everything in the game.

Not trying to state the “when I was your age had to walk through 6 feet of snow for 10 miles bare naked to get to school” sort of nonsense. It’s just that the mmos back in the pre Wow days just thought that everyone wanted to play an mmorpg that required the players to mindlessly grind for absurd amounts of time. The definition of ‘grind’ has changed so, so much over the years…….it’s just difficult for me to call much of anything in this game a grind, in the true sense of the word, imo.

Maybe it would help if you define grind in stead of saying everything was a grind in those games. Anyway, I am talking about the current or even my definition of grind. And then there is to much gold gold gold.. grind.

I like to play for the items, not get gold to buy them. It is that simple.

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

So if you had to ‘grind’ for everything then why still need money? When you grind for the stuff you don’t need money to buy it. Anyway, if it’s so that indeed you had to grind money all the time in those games to buy the items you wanted instead of working directly towards those items, the way I like it then those games must not have been a lot of fun.

However, I have the feeling that you mainly mean it was very hard to get an item or to level up. That is something else then grinding and then in fact it might be exactly what I want. Of course then getting back to the question, if I work towards the items I want then I would not need (so much) gold to buy it.

This is exactly my point. You just don’t really have any sort of real understanding of what some of the old time mmo players here say about the older games and the grind. Of course you also had to grind for gold, as some of the games’ elements required ‘buys’ instead of drops, such as housing, mounts, crafting tools, etc. That was in addition to the grinding for levels, drops, gear……running grindy, horribly time consuming large group missions for certain types of special abilities, etc….having to regrind due to a death of your player where you lost gear, coin, ranking, etc……the list goes on an on and on……blech.

I guess I will just have to respectfully disagree with you. From what you have said, especially when you consider GW2 to be some sort of awful gold ‘grind’, I feel that you would completely detest the grind of the older games. But I certainly could be wrong. I did know people back then that enjoyed those massive time sinks…..maybe you might have been one of them. I certainly tolerated them myself back when…….but am now glad that some of the mmorpgs are now removing those incredible time wasting sinkholes.

Not trying to pick any sort of fight…..just disagreeing with your perception of it all.

Again.. define grind. You keep telling my I don’t get your definition of grind but you never give your definition of grind..

Besides that, I don’t see how it even matters.

Yeah there is gold-grind.. Not because it takes so extreme long to get money. If you run farm-trains or do dungeons you can make some gold.

The problem is that I do not want to grind gold to buy items, I want to work towards those items directly (and that might be very hard work or maybe farming mobs for it to drop (what I think you consider grind)). That adds value to the items and the content and it’s simply something I like.

The get gold then buy items is just boring to me and totally devalues the items.

If you don’t want to name that grind then you don’t. Fact stays that to get most of those items it’s all gold, gold, gold in stead of working directly towards the item. Oow except for gold there is the temporary do it now ore lose out forever achievement list. Not much more fun.

Devata.6589:

Maybe it would help if you define grind in stead of saying everything was a grind in those games. Anyway, I am talking about the current or even my definition of grind. And then there is to much gold gold gold.. grind.

I like to play for the items, not get gold to buy them. It is that simple.

Take the ‘grind’ that you feel exists for gold in GW2, and apply that same experience/feeling to just about every aspect of the game…..crafting, special abilities, gear, levels, regrind due to death and loss of items/coin, massive, time consuming missions for higher end abilities and trinkets, etc…..

I am not saying take your definition of the word grind……am saying to take how you feel about ‘grinding’ gold in this game and apply that same feeling/experience to all the above. It might be interesting and tolerable for the first character, but then new content has been added by then that just increases that grind, and then it just all starts to blur and become more of a dull job interspersed with some fun and enjoyment, despite the horrid time sinks. (“Count me out for anything tonight, as we have been planning this mission for such and such ability/trinket/1 part of a several part upper level conquest for several weeks, so I will be on my computer for the next 6 hours after work”)

I guess that is the best way I can come somewhat close to getting you to understand how those older mmos were when it came to grind. Or, buy yourself a cheap copy(they’ll be cheap because they’re so old) of Everquest 1 or Dark Age of Camelot and play it for a few months…….then you’ll get an idea of what I am trying to explain.

And don’t get me wrong…..they could be fun….and addictive…..because that is all there was then….and most mmo players were used to it……and a lot of us were a lot younger then….

But if I were to now install one of those older games, jump on my computer and play it, after having played GW2……..I would either be totally insane and/or would have completely destroyed my computer within 4 weeks of playing that old time sink.

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Maybe it would help if you define grind in stead of saying everything was a grind in those games. Anyway, I am talking about the current or even my definition of grind. And then there is to much gold gold gold.. grind.

I like to play for the items, not get gold to buy them. It is that simple.

Take the ‘grind’ that you feel exists for gold in GW2, and apply that same experience/feeling to just about every aspect of the game…..crafting, special abilities, gear, levels, regrind due to death and loss of items/coin, massive, time consuming missions for higher end abilities and trinkets, etc…..

I am not saying take your definition of the word grind……am saying to take how you feel about ‘grinding’ gold in this game and apply that same feeling/experience to all the above. It might be interesting and tolerable for the first character, but then new content has been added by then that just increases that grind, and then it just all starts to blur and become more of a dull job interspersed with some real fun and enjoyment, despite the horrid time sinks. (“Count me out for anything tonight, as we have been planning this mission for such and such ability/trinket/1 part of a several part upper level conquest for several weeks, so I will be on my computer for the next 6 hours after work”)

I guess that is the best way I can come somewhat close to getting you to understand how those older mmos were when it came to grind.

And don’t get me wrong…..they were fun….and addictive…..because that is all there was then….and most mmo players were used to it……and a lot of us were a lot younger then….

But if I were to now install one of those older games, jump on my computer and play it, after having played GW2……..I would either be insane and/or would have completely destroyed my computer within 2 weeks of playing that old time sink.

The feeling that you always have to grind gold for everything in stead of working towards the thinks them self. The don’t really fit on most of your examples? You do boring task to earn gold to buy your levels?

Sorry still can’t see what else it is then you mean it’s hard and define that as grind. And I don’t mind it is hard, I do dislike how many games did get dumbed down mainly because of consoles. Just did not play many MMORPG’s back in the day. What did you do to get the gear or example that you consider a grind?

I consider it a grind when I have to do go get money, to then buy the gear or skins to be more exact as I prefer skins over stats.

And still, the fact that those games where maybe worse does not mean there is no grind in GW2. Just put the dame items in the game behind specific content in stead of all general drops and cash-shop stuff.

Gone is the gold-grind. But they want gold-grind. It means more gem-sales. I did go for a B2P game in stead of a F2P game to avoid exactly thee sorts of things.

Devata.6589:

Again.. define grind. You keep telling my I don’t get your definition of grind but you never give your definition of grind..

Besides that, I don’t see how it even matters.

Yeah there is gold-grind.. Not because it takes so extreme long to get money. If you run farm-trains or do dungeons you can make some gold.

The problem is that I do not want to grind gold to buy items, I want to work towards those items directly (and that might be very hard work or maybe farming mobs for it to drop (what I think you consider grind)). That adds value to the items and the content and it’s simply something I like.

The get gold then buy items is just boring to me and totally devalues the items.

If you don’t want to name that grind then you don’t. Fact stays that to get most of those items it’s all gold, gold, gold in stead of working directly towards the item. Oow except for gold there is the temporary do it now ore lose out forever achievement list. Not much more fun.

I guess, if you want a more clear, specific definition of the word grind to me…..

Something, in an mmorpg, whether it be gold, an item, a drop, something like crafting, an ability…etc…..that takes a very large and absurd amount of in game time to achieve/get.

But then I would also have to define what “very large and absurd amount of in game time” means to me….lol.

It’s difficult to define, because the word grind today means something so completely different than what it meant 15 years or so ago. My previous post probably encompasses what I am trying to explain better.

Get yourself EQ1 or DaoC and play either of them for a few months……probably the only way you’ll understand what I mean……and even then, maybe not….you might enjoy them……

Like I said before…..just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Devata.6589:

Teon.5168:

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

I did not play EQN2 but the way you define grind is not what I and many people are complaining about. The the endless gold-grind that people complain about.

I would love to in fact have to do something for my rewards.. something specific, not just grinding gold because as you say, that is much more memorable.

The thing is, from the way many " Modern Gamers" use the term " grind", it seems to me that what you now consider grind… we who have been around since UO, EQ1, CoH, SWG…DAoC… yes, the “pre-World of Warcraft” era, before MMO’s were so simplified, that players can expect and demand… level cap in a week… etc… We called " Playing the Game."

Playing the game, meant you did not reach level cap for at least 6 months to maybe 9 months.

Playing the game meant that the Item you wanted…The EverQuest Epic for your class, took many different quests, some you could do alone, some you needed a couple of people to help…some you needed a whole guild to take down some world Boss… and back then World Bosses made grenth and Lyssa Look… weak.

Back then… an Epic… was so much More difficult to get than a legendary, and was Not something you could Buy off anyone else. It was soulbound on acquire.

Back then the best rewards were things you had to work for… fact is…whoever got their Epic probably worked on it for 6 to 9 months….after reaching level cap….. if they were lucky.

Today’s gamers toss the word " Grind" around as if they knew what a grind was. If they were ever to try a “real” MMO, and Not these " MMO-lites." That have become common since WoW simplified, and … eliminated most of what playing an MMO was, they would rage quit and whine about " This is just boring grinding!"

Back then… buying In game Gold with cash was anathema. People that did it were not " the average gamer." but seen as lazy. back then people that griefed others, trolls, were ostracized In games where being ostracized meant you could not get content accompliahed. You needed help from others. and that led to a feeling of community.

I have to laugh when I see threads like this… " grind" .. today’s players simply have no conception of what a true grind is, since Not many games since WoW revolutionized the MMO Genre, By simplifying it to " level cap in a week, because…. The game begins at level cap." has any grind in it. Anything that might extend the longevity or even make the game more entertaining, by making it more challenging is shouted down as " Boring grind..I’ll rage quit and take my money with me."

Back then the game began at level 1. And what many of us enjoyed from level 1. you guys would consider “grinding”.

Nerelith, I could not agree with you more, as you pretty much summed up all my feelings about absurd threads such as this one! Excellent post!

And Devata, of course one had to grind gold(on a much longer/larger scale than gw2) in those older mmos. One had to grind for nearly everything in those older games.

So if you had to ‘grind’ for everything then why still need money? When you grind for the stuff you don’t need money to buy it. Anyway, if it’s so that indeed you had to grind money all the time in those games to buy the items you wanted instead of working directly towards those items, the way I like it then those games must not have been a lot of fun.

However, I have the feeling that you mainly mean it was very hard to get an item or to level up. That is something else then grinding and then in fact it might be exactly what I want. Of course then getting back to the question, if I work towards the items I want then I would not need (so much) gold to buy it.

The Must not have been a Lot of fun, for a Player like you. Trust me, for me, it was a blast.

See since it took a week to level up…. then it made sense to go out and hunt panther pelts in the karanas to then sell on the bazaar. The you took the money you earned, and Bough the armor upgrade you needed.

Is this what you call " grinding for gold"? Funny for us it was called " Roleplaying a character that needs to save up for new armor, and Knows a leatherworker, that will buy their pelts off them… and Knowing a tailor, that will then take payment for the Armor, she needed. Oh maybe a straight exchange of cloth for armor might work? After all..I am NOT dealing with an impoersonal Auction House…but dealing with a Player.. maybe barter works?"

People do not realize that taking a good 6 to 9 months to level to level cap, actually makes crafting sensible. Today’s gamers have cheated themselves by demanding " an end to grinding" all they did was demand " an end to gameplay."

Devata.6589:

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Maybe it would help if you define grind in stead of saying everything was a grind in those games. Anyway, I am talking about the current or even my definition of grind. And then there is to much gold gold gold.. grind.

I like to play for the items, not get gold to buy them. It is that simple.

Take the ‘grind’ that you feel exists for gold in GW2, and apply that same experience/feeling to just about every aspect of the game…..crafting, special abilities, gear, levels, regrind due to death and loss of items/coin, massive, time consuming missions for higher end abilities and trinkets, etc…..

I am not saying take your definition of the word grind……am saying to take how you feel about ‘grinding’ gold in this game and apply that same feeling/experience to all the above. It might be interesting and tolerable for the first character, but then new content has been added by then that just increases that grind, and then it just all starts to blur and become more of a dull job interspersed with some real fun and enjoyment, despite the horrid time sinks. (“Count me out for anything tonight, as we have been planning this mission for such and such ability/trinket/1 part of a several part upper level conquest for several weeks, so I will be on my computer for the next 6 hours after work”)

I guess that is the best way I can come somewhat close to getting you to understand how those older mmos were when it came to grind.

And don’t get me wrong…..they were fun….and addictive…..because that is all there was then….and most mmo players were used to it……and a lot of us were a lot younger then….

But if I were to now install one of those older games, jump on my computer and play it, after having played GW2……..I would either be insane and/or would have completely destroyed my computer within 2 weeks of playing that old time sink.

The feeling that you always have to grind gold for everything in stead of working towards the thinks them self. The don’t really fit on most of your examples? You do boring task to earn gold to buy your levels?

Sorry still can’t see what else it is then you mean it’s hard and define that as grind. And I don’t mind it is hard, I do dislike how many games did get dumbed down mainly because of consoles. Just did not play many MMORPG’s back in the day. What did you do to get the gear or example that you consider a grind?

I consider it a grind when I have to do go get money, to then buy the gear or skins to be more exact as I prefer skins over stats.

And still, the fact that those games where maybe worse does not mean there is no grind in GW2. Just put the dame items in the game behind specific content in stead of all general drops and cash-shop stuff.

Gone is the gold-grind. But they want gold-grind. It means more gem-sales. I did go for a B2P game in stead of a F2P game to avoid exactly thee sorts of things.

So….killing the same i monster over and over for gold is a grind.
Killing the same monster over and over, hoping for a possible rare drop, for a specific quest for a rare item, isnt a grind its working towards a goal.

My biggest problem with GW2 content, is that everything feels pointless and uninteresting.

The game is almost devoid of challenging and rewarding content.

After you’ve completed the (weak) story instances, the game becomes a highly repetitive, highly mindless journey for ascended gear or for “optional” cosmetic stuff, that is usually achieved by joining a zerg and auto-attacking everything. The loot system is heavily tied to the TP, such that the drop rate is calculated with the entire playerbase in mind, which makes it very unfun and unsatisfying to each individual player, so there’s nothing left but farm gold. The dungeons are broken, and monster encounters are bland, so everything is acchieved by auto-attacking in zergs, exceptions aside. And then, because almsot everything is open world, more challenging zerg events are frustrating because of the lag and the random one-hit kills. Finally, most of the living story content was temporary, so interesting content like the solo challenges from queen’s cerimony or the very addicting jumping puzzle bazaar map were removed. Two of the best dungeons in the game were also temporary, except now shorter, less interesting versions are randomized in the fractals, a place of highly repetitive content for those whole love gear-gated content and massive repetition and are willing to struggle some really annoying fractals inbetween (dredge).

GW2 launched under the promise of this awesome dynamic world, but after the first months, the hype fell off, and what remains? The event system mostly abandoned and ignored, and a lot of “optional” content that is nothing but mindless grinding for cosmetics (or for ascended).

I quit playing around when ascended items were announced. Just came here to see if they gave up on the idea of a long grind for stat advantages rather than cosmetics.

Guess I still will not be rejoining this game.

If you’re going to put in stat advantage grinds, go all the way and make the grind feel rewarding as other successful games have. This kitten long grind for minor upgrades stuff is terrible.

Nerelith.7360:

The Must not have been a Lot of fun, for a Player like you. Trust me, for me, it was a blast.

See since it took a week to level up…. then it made sense to go out and hunt panther pelts in the karanas to then sell on the bazaar. The you took the money you earned, and Bough the armor upgrade you needed.

Is this what you call " grinding for gold"? Funny for us it was called " Roleplaying a character that needs to save up for new armor, and Knows a leatherworker, that will buy their pelts off them… and Knowing a tailor, that will then take payment for the Armor, she needed. Oh maybe a straight exchange of cloth for armor might work? After all..I am NOT dealing with an impoersonal Auction House…but dealing with a Player.. maybe barter works?"

People do not realize that taking a good 6 to 9 months to level to level cap, actually makes crafting sensible. Today’s gamers have cheated themselves by demanding " an end to grinding" all they did was demand " an end to gameplay."

Sounds like a job, not a game. I hope your real life job is as enjoyable as you make this out to be, since it’s virtually the same thing (repetitive activity for long hours for an arguably meager reward).

Shindar the Reaver.2518:

I quit playing around when ascended items were announced. Just came here to see if they gave up on the idea of a long grind for stat advantages rather than cosmetics.

Guess I still will not be rejoining this game.

If you’re going to put in stat advantage grinds, go all the way and make the grind feel rewarding as other successful games have. This kitten long grind for minor upgrades stuff is terrible.

They lessened the grind a bit but placed it into RNG as a reward for doing higher level fractals. I believe it starts at 10+ a chance for armor and weapons now.