Guild Wars 2

STIHL.2489:

AliamRationem.5172:

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

Personally, I think that, especially in an MMO, 15 hours per week is well within the realm of casual.

I agree. I’ve spent over 25 hours a week, but I’m definitely casual. I don’t think hours played is a defining characteristic of casual.

Actually, the definition of the word “casual” seems to be pretty casually-stated.

So, the word “casual” probably isn’t limited to any one definition. It’s probably more of a section of a continuum. Things like:

• Many hours vs. few hours.
• Solo vs. group-centric attitudes.
• Easy play vs. hard play.
• Structured play vs. unstructured.

and probably a lot more. Casuals would tend to be on one side of any summary of those tallies, and hardcores on the other. But, no one thing “defines” either group.

I agree. As I said before, the most defining characteristic of “casual” from my WoW experience was an unwillingness to schedule one’s life around the game. Generally, this referred to raiding, where any one individual’s schedule must align with the needs of the 9-39 other players in the group.

A corollary of that is that players who didn’t raid tended to be (mostly) solo players. And because any player that was insufficiently skilled and/or experienced with the game to raid generally didn’t raid, and was therefore likely to be a solo player, being a solo player was often associated with a lack of skill as well.

That may define the “average” casual player, but I don’t think it fits all of them. I consider myself at least somewhat casual because I dislike organized group PvE. I have only 2 raid boss kills (VG and that escort boss) and my fractal level isn’t very high either. As a result, I spend most of my time solo and I generally refuse to commit to showing up to play for group gameplay, as a rule.

On the other hand, I loved exploring the HoT maps and I can solo every hero point champion, every bandit champion (including the legendary executioner), I hit platinum rank my first season in PvP, too. And I spend quite a lot of time playing GW2. I also have 3 legendaries crafted so far and did every achievement in SAB this year.

Probably not the “average” casual, but I am a mostly solo player that won’t commit to group content on a schedule.

Now, given how many people have said, (in this topic alone) that GW2 is very casual friendly, that it’s demographic is made up mostly of what gamers from games like WoW would consider casual players, which is easy enough to believe, given how Solo Friendly GW2’s design is, couple that with how much time you have invested into it (which I am going to be bet was more then you put into WoW, since the was more appealing to you, given how much easier it is then WoW to get to the end game and be optimally equipped) that by GW2 standards you fall into the category of a Serous Player?

Not necessarily. What I’m telling you is that I don’t play the way hardcore players do. I may spend as much time playing as they do. I may have the skill to do what they do. But I’m a solo player. I do what I want to do and play when and what I want to play.

If it isn’t “meta”? So what? I didn’t play the meta in PvP. I stuck with my d/d elementalist because that’s what I like. Same with PvE. I’m not interested in jumping through hoops and committing to a scheduled raid time. So I just don’t.

To me, that’s the definition of a casual. And it’s something that I feel GW2 does a great job of encouraging. Play the way I want to play. Well, here I can do exactly that and I can do it without feeling like what I enjoy doing is some sort of afterthought to the developers. In WoW, raiding is everything. The whole PvE world is set up to funnel you toward it. Here raiding is just there for those who want it.

And since you mention it, I did my time in WoW. I played from Vanilla through BC and WotLK. I was a hardcore raider in a best-on-server guild and later led my own raiding guild where I was raid leader and played critical roles like main tank, off-tank, and raid healer. I enjoyed it at the time, but I got tired of the way it began to feel like a full-time job. That’s what I think of when I think “hardcore”, and GW2 really doesn’t have a lot of that even for those who enjoy that sort of gameplay.

Djinn.9245:

Ardid.7203:

STIHL.2489:

“Casual” is a mindset, or more aptly put, an approach on how someone plays the game. In simple terms, “casual” defines their motive and drive, as opposed to being serious about the game, or hardcore. Truth is, being “Casual” is irrespective of skill or time played. As how many hours someone invests into a game or how skilled they are at playing a game, have no bearing the mindset they have or how they approach the game.

In short, a “Casual” is not looking for a something serious that they have to work at or treat like a job, they are looking to escape into a fantasy world as someone might take a casual stroll in the woods to escape the daily grind of life.

By following your definition, I’m a casual.

I get into Verdant Brink, I equip the fun build I enjoy the most (Flamethrower FTW!), jump from a cliff and begin to search for any close event to participate. I run across mobs I don’t want to fight, and surprise those I want to kill. I can prevail fairly often, but I’m killed often too, so I begin anew, usually in a different direction, following any of the outpost stories because they are just amazing.

Sometimes I just fly around from air vent to air vent

If you flew around when you first got to VB, I wouldn’t admit it…

After getting the masteries to move around freely and certainly by now I’m sure a lot of people are fine. And Anet nerfed HoT also of course.

But as has already been pointed out many times in these forums, some people are just inherently better at GW2 than others. I don’t do nearly as well with my Engi in VB as you seem to.

Not to pick on you, but this right here is a perfect example of it not being the game’s fault.

You and I are given the same tools and opportunities to capture and record Masteries and Hero Points.
Folks see at as Grind, Gated, & even as a Chore.
Other folks see it as character development and character progression.

We are unlocking skills, abilities, items, areas, & even convenience.
How is this any different from when you first started playing the game?
Before you had to unlock skills to everyone weapon for your Profession.
Now your unlock skill & utility slots as you level.

We are all on the same playing field, how you choose to get there that’s on you.

I think folks forget the RPG at the end of MMORPG.

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

Yes your right.
In your opinion the game failed.
What I do not understand is why you keep logging in?

What it tells me ANET has done a great job successfully retaining you as a customer!

See you in VB!!!

AliamRationem.5172:

Not necessarily. What I’m telling you is that I don’t play the way hardcore players do.

What you seem to be missing, is that You are not playing the way Hardcore Players in WoW play, but that has no relation to what demographic you fall into among the GW2 community.

To me, that’s the definition of a casual. And it’s something that I feel GW2 does a great job of encouraging. Play the way I want to play.

Again.. yes.. GW2 fosters that community, as such it has a totally different social setting, which means you very may fall into a totally different rung on the ‘leet’ ladder, not to mention, you may enjoy GW2 more then WoW, so instinctively you play it more, are more invested into it. and thus are inherently driven to be better at it then you ever were with WoW, thus even without thinking about it, you gravitate towards being a far more serious gamer.

Simply put.. just because you were a Casual among WoW’s population, does not mean you are a Casual among GW2’s population.

After all, I would wager that there are a fair number of people who play GW2 that never even bothered to touch WoW, due to how demanding the game is.

And since you mention it, I did my time in WoW. I played from Vanilla through BC and WotLK. I was a hardcore raider in a best-on-server guild and later led my own raiding guild where I was raid leader and played critical roles like main tank, off-tank, and raid healer. I enjoyed it at the time, but I got tired of the way it began to feel like a full-time job. That’s what I think of when I think “hardcore”, and GW2 really doesn’t have a lot of that even for those who enjoy that sort of gameplay.

Bingo.. GW2 even at its most ‘leet’ is still nowhere near WoW’s level, as such, what is casual to WoW, is not necessarily Casual to GW2.

I think you’re a lot more “Hardcore” in this game, then you realize.

Rhanoa.3960:

What I do not understand is why you keep logging in?

Ummmm.. As I said in the OP, the new expansion piqued my interest.

That is not retaining me, that is attracting me back, I left for over a year, spending my money on other games.

Now, if you believe that motivating your clients to spend their money on your competitors products as “retaining” them, I can see why you would view HoT as a smashing success.

STIHL.2489:

AliamRationem.5172:

Not necessarily. What I’m telling you is that I don’t play the way hardcore players do.

What you seem to be missing, is that You are not playing the way Hardcore Players in WoW play, but that has no relation to what demographic you fall into among the GW2 community.

To me, that’s the definition of a casual. And it’s something that I feel GW2 does a great job of encouraging. Play the way I want to play.

Again.. yes.. GW2 fosters that community, as such it has a totally different social setting, which means you very may fall into a totally different rung on the ‘leet’ ladder, not to mention, you may enjoy GW2 more then WoW, so instinctively you play it more, are more invested into it. and thus are inherently driven to be better at it then you ever were with WoW, thus even without thinking about it, you gravitate towards being a far more serious gamer.

Simply put.. just because you were a Casual among WoW’s population, does not mean you are a Casual among GW2’s population.

After all, I would wager that there are a fair number of people who play GW2 that never even bothered to touch WoW, due to how demanding the game is.

And since you mention it, I did my time in WoW. I played from Vanilla through BC and WotLK. I was a hardcore raider in a best-on-server guild and later led my own raiding guild where I was raid leader and played critical roles like main tank, off-tank, and raid healer. I enjoyed it at the time, but I got tired of the way it began to feel like a full-time job. That’s what I think of when I think “hardcore”, and GW2 really doesn’t have a lot of that even for those who enjoy that sort of gameplay.

Bingo.. GW2 even at its most ‘leet’ is still nowhere near WoW’s level, as such, what is casual to WoW, is not necessarily Casual to GW2.

I think you’re a lot more “Hardcore” in this game, then you realize.

I imagine you’re feeling like we don’t speak the same language at this point. I know I certainly feel that way!

No, I was not a casual WoW player. There is nothing casual about leading a raiding guild or being part of the best raiding guild on your server there.

As I said, I got tired of that. The problem? WoW didn’t have much to offer the solo player, relative to a game like GW2 where the situation is reversed and raiding is the afterthought.

Using your definition of “casual”, I am not a casual player by virtue of playing too many hours and being too skilled at the game. By my definition, the fact that I am a solo player and don’t participate in organized group PvE makes me a casual player.

You may disagree but, HoT is still designed the way all of GW2 is designed in the sense that it is for the solo player. Yes, the meta events require large groups, but GW2 allows seamless cooperation. You don’t even need to join those groups and nobody will know or care if you aren’t very skilled or aren’t using the meta build.

You can show up whenever you like and just play on your own terms. To me, that is casual. The fact that the combat and navigation are more of a challenge than core Tyria doesn’t make it less casual to me. What would make it less casual is if it took on the characteristics of raiding. It does nothing of the sort. It is still built for solo players who want to play their own way.

I get that you don’t like it. The combat and navigation are frustrating to you. But you don’t own casual. There are plenty of solo players out there who love HoT and when it comes to raiding, can take it or leave it. The first guild I joined (and am still a part of) is full of players like that. Nobody is running DPS meters or forcing the meta. We all just do our own thing.

I am a 60 year old grandma with arthritic hands. I am also the 2nd worst player in the game, grandpa is the worst, and we LOVE HoT. We found the base game a bit boring so we left for a while then came back to HoT. We love the challenge and the additions like gliding, bouncing mushrooms, and ley lines. Challenge is fun….easy is boring.

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

To be fair, the core game failed some players just as HoT failed some players.

Agreed.

The problem is in equating those two things’ impact. The populations affected are very different quantities.

I think the biggest overall reason HoT failed (as an entity, not how it failed certain players) is that ANet listed to a very vocal minority. And, they looked at their history: GW1 added “hard mode” to accommodate that same demographic.

The problem is that they implemented an entire expansion heavily targeting those players.

As someone earlier said, if Hot had been four zones, but only one of which was really hard, it would have been much better received. Or, if they didn’t have so much XP/mastery gating. Or, if they had provided an adequate set of mapping tools to accommodate the new verticality.

But, ALL of the zones are difficult to navigate, and ALL of the zones were of extreme difficulty just to walk around in them. (Change in tense is intended.)

Yes the problem might be in equating the two because more paying players left the core game than were put off by HoT.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

Daddicus.6128:

TexZero.7910:

HoT failed ?

Coulda fooled me with the pre-sales/sales numbers of just the expansion and the ever steady gemstore purchases.

So, the CEO, what, lied?

Further, the failure was precisely because of the presale numbers. Those players spent their money, and expected something. But, they were given something very different from that expectation. They were burned, and that cost the company a great deal of player good will. ANet and NCSoft knew that this would prevent many sales of the second expansion. (Which it has, as is witnessed right here in this thread.)

That’s almost certainly the reason we got a preview. They simply cannot afford another HoT.

Show me anywhere where Mo said HoT failed.

I’ll wait for it.

Additionally horrible logic, we got a demo weekend for literally the same reason we had a HoT beta weekend. Hype. Literally as simple as that, hype generates sales, just as it did for HoT.

The only people who legit think HoT failed are the same people who misunderstand the quaterly reports and look at a less than 1% decrease in Gemstore sales as a statement for how the game is currently running.

If, lets just say IF, HoT was as much a smashing success as you claim.. why is the new expansion nothing at all like it? You would think if what HoT put out was where the money was.. they would make more of it.. Hummmmm.

The claim was that MO specifically stated that HoT was a failure. All that was requested was that a quote showing that claim be provided.

Rhanoa.3960:

Dashingsteel.3410:

How the hell is Anet supposed to remember the casuals when nobody really knows what casual actually means?

Again, this thread is useless because everyone seems to have a different meaning assigned to the word casual.

Op….. Please provide specific points as to what the developers need to remember!!!

Linear and easy game play.

As someone who fits all definitions of “casual” – no. Gameplay does not have to be linear to be good for casual players. I love exploration as long as I’m not being killed every 3 seconds. I don’t mind figuring out where things are. That was the big fail for Tangled Depths for me. So many people love the intricacies of that map but I can’t enjoy that because I’m busy fighting / running for my life. The only time I get to take a breath and look around is at a WP (uncontested) or when I’m dead.

As for easy, since many players think that HoT mobs and even Champions are easy I guess that is also a range that depends on the player. I don’t mind more difficult mobs, just not so many of them.

Djinn.9245:

The only time I get to take a breath and look around is at a WP (uncontested) or when I’m dead.

Yes of course. You are exaggerating obviously because this is really far from the truth

IndigoSundown.5419:

TexZero.7910:

The only people who legit think HoT failed are the same people who misunderstand the quaterly reports and look at a less than 1% decrease in Gemstore sales as a statement for how the game is currently running.

The median gem store sales before HoT (and during, based on NCSoft report including a statement that gem store sales were “stable” during Q4/15, the HoT launch quarter) were quite a bit higher than the new median since Q2/16. Referring to a “less than 1% decrease” is inaccurate when considering the entire period in which HoT has been the latest product.

However, despite the erroneous statement, the decrease is not necessarily all due to HoT. Other factors are likely also causes, and include things like:

• People achieving goals which require gold purchases who stop spending for gems to exchange for gold.
• The natural attrition all games suffer as they age.
• Gem store offerings not appealing to everyone, leading to reduced spending to get them. If people have what they want, and new stuff does not tickle their fancy, there is no need for them to spend.
• The “content drought” between HoT release in Q4/15 and the release of LS3 Episode 1 in Q3/16. What is most telling about the drought is that the first significant decline in store revenue since the HoT reveal in Q1/15 is noted in Q2/16, which was during the latter portion of the drought.

Then, there’s the ginormous gap between “HoT failed” and the official statement that “HoT did not perform as expected.”

I think that it’s obvious from the context that Anet meant that HoT “did not perform as expected” in the negative sense of that phrase. And so people are taking license with the language to say that “failed to perform as expected” is essentially the same thing. Which it is. So in that sense HoT failed. That doesn’t mean it was a complete failure, but I don’t think that most people claiming “HoT failed” have insisted it was a complete failure. We know that many people like it so it would be silly to insist it was a complete failure. But it obviously did fail to perform financially as expected, AND it was a failure to various degrees for many other players.

Anela.3867:

I am a 60 year old grandma with arthritic hands. I am also the 2nd worst player in the game, grandpa is the worst, and we LOVE HoT. We found the base game a bit boring so we left for a while then came back to HoT. We love the challenge and the additions like gliding, bouncing mushrooms, and ley lines. Challenge is fun….easy is boring.

So you are players that love challenges – that’s great but that’s not casual. There are also people in their 80s with artificial hips that run marathons, people in wheelchairs that climb mountains, etc. I love people like that, but that is practically the literal opposite of casual

Ashen.2907:

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

To be fair, the core game failed some players just as HoT failed some players.

Agreed.

The problem is in equating those two things’ impact. The populations affected are very different quantities.

I think the biggest overall reason HoT failed (as an entity, not how it failed certain players) is that ANet listed to a very vocal minority. And, they looked at their history: GW1 added “hard mode” to accommodate that same demographic.

The problem is that they implemented an entire expansion heavily targeting those players.

As someone earlier said, if Hot had been four zones, but only one of which was really hard, it would have been much better received. Or, if they didn’t have so much XP/mastery gating. Or, if they had provided an adequate set of mapping tools to accommodate the new verticality.

But, ALL of the zones are difficult to navigate, and ALL of the zones were of extreme difficulty just to walk around in them. (Change in tense is intended.)

Yes the problem might be in equating the two because more paying players left the core game than were put off by HoT.

Interesting – can you point me to where you got these numbers?

maddoctor.2738:

Djinn.9245:

The only time I get to take a breath and look around is at a WP (uncontested) or when I’m dead.

Yes of course. You are exaggerating obviously because this is really far from the truth

No, it is literal truth for me in general. There have been a handful of occasions when I have happened upon a place where I am not being attacked by several mobs and can take a breath. But that doesn’t happen with any regularity. Even places that seem safe I usually end up attacked by one of the infinite bands of roaming mobs that usually include a vet + many normal mobs.

It could be that if I spent more time in the map and learned it better I would find more places that that are actually safe, but I just can’t bring myself to spend more time in a map I hate.

Djinn.9245:

No, it is literal truth for me in general

The only place really full with mobs is the Rata Novus lane in Tangled Depths. You can find places to stop and places without any mob spawns nearly everywhere else

maddoctor.2738:

Djinn.9245:

No, it is literal truth for me in general

The only place really full with mobs is the Rata Novus lane in Tangled Depths. You can find places to stop and places without any mob spawns nearly everywhere else

There are roving bands of mobs everywhere.

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

This isn’t true at all. Failure in business is when you lose money. I used to run a business and sometimes we forecast that’d we’d make a certain profit, but something would happen and we made less. But the business wasn’t failing. The prediction didn’t take into account certain realities we’d be unaware of.

I was in NYC when 9/11 happened and after that business took a downturn. We didn’t fail because of that. We just went through a lull. We still made profit, still paid bills, still paid employees.

Failing to meet a target is not the same thing as a business, or a game, failing.

Djinn.9245:

Anela.3867:

I am a 60 year old grandma with arthritic hands. I am also the 2nd worst player in the game, grandpa is the worst, and we LOVE HoT. We found the base game a bit boring so we left for a while then came back to HoT. We love the challenge and the additions like gliding, bouncing mushrooms, and ley lines. Challenge is fun….easy is boring.

So you are players that love challenges – that’s great but that’s not casual. There are also people in their 80s with artificial hips that run marathons, people in wheelchairs that climb mountains, etc. I love people like that, but that is practically the literal opposite of casual

It’s not like you can ask a mountain to change it’s elevation so the casuals can also reach the summit area and enjoy the view. Even some of the easiest hikes will have at least 500ft-1000ft elevation gain.

maddoctor.2738:

Djinn.9245:

No, it is literal truth for me in general

The only place really full with mobs is the Rata Novus lane in Tangled Depths. You can find places to stop and places without any mob spawns nearly everywhere else

Well I spent a little time back in VB , and I have noticed there are a lot less mobs floating around, and they seem much easier then I remember.

But the current incarnation of HoT is not indicative of what it was like to try and transverse HoT at launch.

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

TexZero.7910:

The only people who legit think HoT failed are the same people who misunderstand the quaterly reports and look at a less than 1% decrease in Gemstore sales as a statement for how the game is currently running.

The median gem store sales before HoT (and during, based on NCSoft report including a statement that gem store sales were “stable” during Q4/15, the HoT launch quarter) were quite a bit higher than the new median since Q2/16. Referring to a “less than 1% decrease” is inaccurate when considering the entire period in which HoT has been the latest product.

However, despite the erroneous statement, the decrease is not necessarily all due to HoT. Other factors are likely also causes, and include things like:

• People achieving goals which require gold purchases who stop spending for gems to exchange for gold.
• The natural attrition all games suffer as they age.
• Gem store offerings not appealing to everyone, leading to reduced spending to get them. If people have what they want, and new stuff does not tickle their fancy, there is no need for them to spend.
• The “content drought” between HoT release in Q4/15 and the release of LS3 Episode 1 in Q3/16. What is most telling about the drought is that the first significant decline in store revenue since the HoT reveal in Q1/15 is noted in Q2/16, which was during the latter portion of the drought.

Then, there’s the ginormous gap between “HoT failed” and the official statement that “HoT did not perform as expected.”

I think that it’s obvious from the context that Anet meant that HoT “did not perform as expected” in the negative sense of that phrase. And so people are taking license with the language to say that “failed to perform as expected” is essentially the same thing. Which it is. So in that sense HoT failed. That doesn’t mean it was a complete failure, but I don’t think that most people claiming “HoT failed” have insisted it was a complete failure. We know that many people like it so it would be silly to insist it was a complete failure. But it obviously did fail to perform financially as expected, AND it was a failure to various degrees for many other players.

What Mo actually said was that free to play players didn’t upgraded to HoT in the numbers expected. Nothing else was every said explicitly about HoT failing or even not meeting expectations.

So you could say hot failed to sell to free to play players, which doesn’t mean it’s failed, anyway. That’s like saying a restaurant failed to keep vanilla ice cream in stock so the restaurant failed.

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

forecast that’d we’d make a certain profit, but something would happen and we made less. But the business wasn’t failing. The prediction didn’t take into account certain realities we’d be unaware of.

Based off the OPs statements throughout this thread, I really hope he is not a hiring manager.

STIHL.2489:

Well I spent a little time back in VB , and I have noticed there are a lot less mobs floating around, and they seem much easier then I remember.

They did not change mob spawns in VB it’s same as it was at launch. As for difficulty, the only thing I remember changing was the itzel shadowleaper ability to evade ranged attacks, it know evades projectiles not all ranged attacks if I’m not mistaken. If anything, at launch it was easier due to the number of players around.

Of course if you were trying to move through while the dozens of players were fighting in events, it was more than likely you had to fight event-scaled mobs and maybe those caused you all that trouble. Spawning scaling mobs is the normal thing to do even on core tyria maps, try moving through the area around Tequatl when the event is active and you will notice mobs that 1-shot you, or moving between the Penit-Shelter waypoints in Cursed Shore while either event is ongoing. That’s not HoT-specific

Rhanoa.3960:

Djinn.9245:

Anela.3867:

I am a 60 year old grandma with arthritic hands. I am also the 2nd worst player in the game, grandpa is the worst, and we LOVE HoT. We found the base game a bit boring so we left for a while then came back to HoT. We love the challenge and the additions like gliding, bouncing mushrooms, and ley lines. Challenge is fun….easy is boring.

So you are players that love challenges – that’s great but that’s not casual. There are also people in their 80s with artificial hips that run marathons, people in wheelchairs that climb mountains, etc. I love people like that, but that is practically the literal opposite of casual

It’s not like you can ask a mountain to change it’s elevation so the casuals can also reach the summit area and enjoy the view. Even some of the easiest hikes will have at least 500ft-1000ft elevation gain.

You are absolutely correct. That is one reason why casual people play video games.

Rhanoa.3960:

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

forecast that’d we’d make a certain profit, but something would happen and we made less. But the business wasn’t failing. The prediction didn’t take into account certain realities we’d be unaware of.

Based off the OPs statements throughout this thread, I really hope he is not a hiring manager.

I’d be offended, but, I read what you think retaining clients means, and the fact that Vayne does not seem to grasp the very profound difference between RoI and just making a sales goal… I simply can’t be.

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Well I spent a little time back in VB , and I have noticed there are a lot less mobs floating around, and they seem much easier then I remember.

They did not change mob spawns in VB it’s same as it was at launch. As for difficulty, the only thing I remember changing was the itzel shadowleaper ability to evade ranged attacks, it know evades projectiles not all ranged attacks if I’m not mistaken. If anything, at launch it was easier due to the number of players around.

Of course if you were trying to move through while the dozens of players were fighting in events, it was more than likely you had to fight event-scaled mobs and maybe those caused you all that trouble. Spawning scaling mobs is the normal thing to do even on core tyria maps, try moving through the area around Tequatl when the event is active and you will notice mobs that 1-shot you, or moving between the Penit-Shelter waypoints in Cursed Shore while either event is ongoing. That’s not HoT-specific

Humm, well it felt like such a slog the first few months I tried to play, to the point that exploring was not so much about exploring and seeing the zone and looking at what was about, it was all nothing but these endless stupid hard fights… all the time.

Also I did a flamethrower engineer for the stability boon in HoT, because all that stuff has those stupid knock backs.

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

forecast that’d we’d make a certain profit, but something would happen and we made less. But the business wasn’t failing. The prediction didn’t take into account certain realities we’d be unaware of.

Based off the OPs statements throughout this thread, I really hope he is not a hiring manager.

I’d be offended, but, I read what you think retaining clients means, and the fact that Vayne does not seem to grasp the very profound difference between RoI and just making a sales goal… I simply can’t be.

In order for HoT to be a failure, you’d have to prove a couple of things. First, that more people left because of HOT, or stopped playing because of it than people who came back or started ;playing. That’s almost impossible to prove either way.

You can say a certain percentage of people didn’t like HoT. It’s true.

As for ROI, unless you work for Anet’s account department or management, you have no way to know the ROI on HoT. You’d be guessing at best.

Djinn.9245:

Rhanoa.3960:

Dashingsteel.3410:

How the hell is Anet supposed to remember the casuals when nobody really knows what casual actually means?

Again, this thread is useless because everyone seems to have a different meaning assigned to the word casual.

Op….. Please provide specific points as to what the developers need to remember!!!

Linear and easy game play.

As someone who fits all definitions of “casual” – no. Gameplay does not have to be linear to be good for casual players. I love exploration as long as I’m not being killed every 3 seconds. I don’t mind figuring out where things are. That was the big fail for Tangled Depths for me. So many people love the intricacies of that map but I can’t enjoy that because I’m busy fighting / running for my life. The only time I get to take a breath and look around is at a WP (uncontested) or when I’m dead.

As for easy, since many players think that HoT mobs and even Champions are easy I guess that is also a range that depends on the player. I don’t mind more difficult mobs, just not so many of them.

As someone who fits YOUR definition of casual. Had you considered that you might be in the minority at this point? You’re working under the assumption that most players feel the way you do and you believe (but don’t know) that the reason HoT “failed” are the reasons you dislike it.

However, you have no proof of that. There were other significant factors. First, that HoT at launch spawned a lot more complaints than it does now. Second, that the price point and failure to deliver on certain promises in the initial release turned many players away. There are plenty of reasons besides the combat and navigation being too difficult that contributed to the less-than-stellar release.

But your complaints seem to be in a distinct minority at this point. Part of that is that players like yourself have left the game. But part of it is also that they responded to the complaints and toned down some of the more obnoxious elements of the initial release to appeal to a broader range of players. I think they succeeded in that, but of course you can’t please everyone.

I’m fairly casual.

As an example: I was here for the release of HOT, I just beat the HOT story about a week ago. and I have never 100% any of the Heart of Maguuma zones.

The reason GW2 stays installed on my computer is because it’s so unbelievably casual friendly. I can jump in and play at my leisure without having to worry about guilds, raiding, gearing, reset timers or any number of things that make other games less casual friendly.

Either way from what I can tell POF will be as casual friendly as this entire game has been which is pretty kitten casual friendly.

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Well I spent a little time back in VB , and I have noticed there are a lot less mobs floating around, and they seem much easier then I remember.

They did not change mob spawns in VB it’s same as it was at launch. As for difficulty, the only thing I remember changing was the itzel shadowleaper ability to evade ranged attacks, it know evades projectiles not all ranged attacks if I’m not mistaken. If anything, at launch it was easier due to the number of players around.

Of course if you were trying to move through while the dozens of players were fighting in events, it was more than likely you had to fight event-scaled mobs and maybe those caused you all that trouble. Spawning scaling mobs is the normal thing to do even on core tyria maps, try moving through the area around Tequatl when the event is active and you will notice mobs that 1-shot you, or moving between the Penit-Shelter waypoints in Cursed Shore while either event is ongoing. That’s not HoT-specific

Humm, well it felt like such a slog the first few months I tried to play, to the point that exploring was not so much about exploring and seeing the zone and looking at what was about, it was all nothing but these endless stupid hard fights… all the time.

Also I did a flamethrower engineer for the stability boon in HoT, because all that stuff has those stupid knock backs.

Understand that what you are responding to is an opinion presented as fact. There is no hard data on exactly what was changed. It is my opinion that people who liked HoT quickly became acclimated to the mobs / maps and so didn’t find them as difficult as I and many other casual players did in the first place.

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

forecast that’d we’d make a certain profit, but something would happen and we made less. But the business wasn’t failing. The prediction didn’t take into account certain realities we’d be unaware of.

Based off the OPs statements throughout this thread, I really hope he is not a hiring manager.

I’d be offended, but, I read what you think retaining clients means, and the fact that Vayne does not seem to grasp the very profound difference between RoI and just making a sales goal… I simply can’t be.

In order for HoT to be a failure, you’d have to prove a couple of things. First, that more people left because of HOT, or stopped playing because of it than people who came back or started ;playing. That’s almost impossible to prove either way.

You can say a certain percentage of people didn’t like HoT. It’s true.

As for ROI, unless you work for Anet’s account department or management, you have no way to know the ROI on HoT. You’d be guessing at best.

The nice flat casual friendly maps of PoE.. tell me all I need to know.

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

Rhanoa.3960:

Dashingsteel.3410:

How the hell is Anet supposed to remember the casuals when nobody really knows what casual actually means?

Again, this thread is useless because everyone seems to have a different meaning assigned to the word casual.

Op….. Please provide specific points as to what the developers need to remember!!!

Linear and easy game play.

As someone who fits all definitions of “casual” – no. Gameplay does not have to be linear to be good for casual players. I love exploration as long as I’m not being killed every 3 seconds. I don’t mind figuring out where things are. That was the big fail for Tangled Depths for me. So many people love the intricacies of that map but I can’t enjoy that because I’m busy fighting / running for my life. The only time I get to take a breath and look around is at a WP (uncontested) or when I’m dead.

As for easy, since many players think that HoT mobs and even Champions are easy I guess that is also a range that depends on the player. I don’t mind more difficult mobs, just not so many of them.

As someone who fits YOUR definition of casual. Had you considered that you might be in the minority at this point? You’re working under the assumption that most players feel the way you do and you believe (but don’t know) that the reason HoT “failed” are the reasons you dislike it.

Am I? Can you point out to me where I claimed I was speaking for more people than myself? Have I given a specific reason why I think HoT failed?

It is true that I believe that HoT failed because many people who already played GW2 liked the game they were playing and did not appreciate the change in direction. It seems to be logical that if more players wanted challenging content, those players would have purchased HoT. So who did not purchase HoT that Anet thought would?

But again, that is just my opinion and I have never put it forth as fact. The only facts in this regard is that HoT did not do as well as expected and it failed many existing players.

Djinn.9245:

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Well I spent a little time back in VB , and I have noticed there are a lot less mobs floating around, and they seem much easier then I remember.

They did not change mob spawns in VB it’s same as it was at launch. As for difficulty, the only thing I remember changing was the itzel shadowleaper ability to evade ranged attacks, it know evades projectiles not all ranged attacks if I’m not mistaken. If anything, at launch it was easier due to the number of players around.

Of course if you were trying to move through while the dozens of players were fighting in events, it was more than likely you had to fight event-scaled mobs and maybe those caused you all that trouble. Spawning scaling mobs is the normal thing to do even on core tyria maps, try moving through the area around Tequatl when the event is active and you will notice mobs that 1-shot you, or moving between the Penit-Shelter waypoints in Cursed Shore while either event is ongoing. That’s not HoT-specific

Humm, well it felt like such a slog the first few months I tried to play, to the point that exploring was not so much about exploring and seeing the zone and looking at what was about, it was all nothing but these endless stupid hard fights… all the time.

Also I did a flamethrower engineer for the stability boon in HoT, because all that stuff has those stupid knock backs.

Understand that what you are responding to is an opinion presented as fact. There is no hard data on exactly what was changed. It is my opinion that people who liked HoT quickly became acclimated to the mobs / maps and so didn’t find them as difficult as I and many other casual players did in the first place.

Well I just got back over a long absence, and have no idea how most of m skills work.. as such my play-style at time looks like this.. .

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

I think that it’s obvious from the context that Anet meant that HoT “did not perform as expected” in the negative sense of that phrase. And so people are taking license with the language to say that “failed to perform as expected” is essentially the same thing. Which it is. So in that sense HoT failed. That doesn’t mean it was a complete failure, but I don’t think that most people claiming “HoT failed” have insisted it was a complete failure. We know that many people like it so it would be silly to insist it was a complete failure. But it obviously did fail to perform financially as expected, AND it was a failure to various degrees for many other players.

What Mo actually said was that free to play players didn’t upgraded to HoT in the numbers expected. Nothing else was every said explicitly about HoT failing or even not meeting expectations.

So you could say hot failed to sell to free to play players, which doesn’t mean it’s failed, anyway. That’s like saying a restaurant failed to keep vanilla ice cream in stock so the restaurant failed.

@ Vayne
The quote “did not perform as expected” was from the NCSoft report from Q4/15, published in January, 16. The report even went on to amplify that free players did not upgrade in the numbers anticipated. Nothing was said about expectations of paid players upgrading, but you can bet there were such. Somewhere in Q3/15 there was an article which cited 1,5M distinct monthly logins to GW2 prior to PFF, rising to roughly double that number after PFF hit. HoT sales at that time were closer to 500,000 than 1.5 million. Now, maybe seeing ~2/3 of semi-active accounts not upgrading was expected. Maybe laying the disappointment solely at the feet of free players not upgrading is over gloss.

@ Djinn
While I appreciate that you do not equate “failure” with “complete failure,” I suspect that you might be giving too much credit to random people on the internet, where assumption, exaggeration and hyperbole take center stage.

Lokki.1092:

Seems like the implication is that you seem to be admitting you have no idea how to play your class, or this game.

If I am admitting I have no idea how play.. I’m not blaming the game, now am I ?

hence.. Admitting I am bad.

(and yah, I just came after a year.. I have no idea what I am doing, hence the Gif I linked)

So it seems they were just trying to be insulting and failing miserably and I should have put a faceplam gif up, but those are so tasteless and tacky, eww.

few things.

casual is NOT about how much time you play or how skilled you are, or are not, and how much you do or do not solo.
it is about your approach to the game. do you play just for giggles? do you just log on for an hour or two to blow off some steam? or do you attack it like a job... researching the best gear, theorycrafting with the planner, reading the metabattle builds, and watching videos of how other, potentially better, players play (yourfavoriteclass)?

that being said... certain marks, while not impossible, are usually only attained by people who AREN’T playing casually... owning 5 legendaries is out of the scope that would normally be considered casual... so far so that the sarcastic response to the poster who mentioned they were casual with 5 legendaries was not only unsurprising... it was expected.

i’ve played 3 years out of the last 5. i started playing 5 months after the game came out. have 12 characters (1 of each, and 4 rangers) all at 80 all fully geared in at least exotics, and almost all have their elite specs. i have 11k AP. i have 2 legendaries (both times i had the precursor given to me). i have one character fully outfitted tip to toe in ascended Vipers. i have every trade skill at 400 or better. i’ve made maudry and light of dwayna. i’ve done a level 79 fractal. i solo towers in WvW without too much trouble. i was a liked commander, and i even commanded for 16 hours straight one day.

i did NOT consider myself to be a casual (altho with the "casual" resume i’ve seen some post in this thread, i’m sure they would consider me such)... and i’m pretty sure that, while i’m certainly not the best player out there... i do actually know how to play my favorite class quite well, and many more at least passably.

i’ve NEVER completed a raid... i disliked all the HoT maps and found them frustrating and difficult to maneuver. i stopped playing shortly after HoT came out.

i too, like Stihl, have come back tenatively to check out the new expac. if it is more like core Tyria in overall feel... i may buy it... if it’s all crap like HoT... back to DDO i will go... where i’ll go back to soloing epic elite content and various raids (yes raids) on my bard, just to see if i can.

I hated HoT until I actually sat down and gave it a serious chance. The maps kind grow on you really. I still hate the lack of solo content in them though as I am just not a group player. Probably why I still enjoy the heck out of the original. Love my heros!

STIHL.2489:

Lokki.1092:

Seems like the implication is that you seem to be admitting you have no idea how to play your class, or this game.

If I am admitting I have no idea how play.. I’m not blaming the game, now am I ?

hence.. Admitting I am bad.

(and yah, I just came after a year.. I have no idea what I am doing, hence the Gif I linked)

So it seems they were just trying to be insulting and failing miserably and I should have put a faceplam gif up, but those are so tasteless and tacky, eww.

But if you’re bad at the game then your opinion, no matter what it is, is wrong! (As long as someone who hasn’t admitted they’re bad at the game disagrees with you.)
Don’t you know anything? =P

*edit: apologies if this joke feels like not a joke or something

Rashagar.8349:

STIHL.2489:

Lokki.1092:

Seems like the implication is that you seem to be admitting you have no idea how to play your class, or this game.

If I am admitting I have no idea how play.. I’m not blaming the game, now am I ?

hence.. Admitting I am bad.

(and yah, I just came after a year.. I have no idea what I am doing, hence the Gif I linked)

So it seems they were just trying to be insulting and failing miserably and I should have put a faceplam gif up, but those are so tasteless and tacky, eww.

But if you’re bad at the game then your opinion, no matter what it is, is wrong! (As long as someone who hasn’t admitted they’re bad at the game disagrees with you.)
Don’t you know anything? =P

*edit: apologies if this joke feels like not a joke or something

But.. But.. I even put casual in the title… how dare people with a clue respond!

STIHL.2489:

Rashagar.8349:

STIHL.2489:

Lokki.1092:

Seems like the implication is that you seem to be admitting you have no idea how to play your class, or this game.

If I am admitting I have no idea how play.. I’m not blaming the game, now am I ?

hence.. Admitting I am bad.

(and yah, I just came after a year.. I have no idea what I am doing, hence the Gif I linked)

So it seems they were just trying to be insulting and failing miserably and I should have put a faceplam gif up, but those are so tasteless and tacky, eww.

But if you’re bad at the game then your opinion, no matter what it is, is wrong! (As long as someone who hasn’t admitted they’re bad at the game disagrees with you.)
Don’t you know anything? =P

*edit: apologies if this joke feels like not a joke or something

But.. But.. I even put casual in the title… how dare people with a clue respond!

Uhh… Casual doesn’t mean bad at the game.
Do you think casual means being bad at a game?

Casual means casual… relaxed and unconcerned, not regular or permanent, or a person who does something irregularly.

That isn’t the same as being bad at the game.

You can be casual, playing when you want, for short amounts of time, and never investing too much into the game, while also understanding how to play your character well. Just because I casually play Super Mario 3 one weekend doesn’t mean I’m bad at playing the game. It just means I played the game with no real goal, and likely didn’t beat it.

The reason why your input about you not knowing how to play the game matters so much is because you seems to be making a claim that the game is too hard. If you don’t know how to play the game then your assessment of the game being too hard is tough for us to understand. If your claim was “The game is ugly” “The sounds are too quiet” or “I don’t like the story.” That would be different but to say, “This game is too difficult have they fixed it yet?” While also saying, “I have no idea how to play this game at all.” Is just going to make people assume you have no idea what you are talking about.

From my time on these forums I’ve determined that casual means the following:
- Completely flat map with uninteresting terrain that is easy to cross
- Speed across entire map in an instant, preferably by teleporting (somehow, having this ability is necessary alongside also having a flat map)
- Spend a few seconds only killing a mob by only pressing one button
- Overcome all challenges even in extremely inefficient gear and builds, without having to think about complexity
- Do not require other players for any event, not even group events
- No aggro from mobs, no skills from mobs, no danger from mobs
- No CC, no conditions, nothing that requires any kind of counter-play or quick thinking
- Everything as quick as possible, everyone is busy busy these days, can’t stop to actually play a game
- Always rewards, even for doing nothing at all
- Define fun as the embodiment of getting things for nothing, instead of immersion, challenge or time investment

More that I forget, but we all know what they are by now.

Hannelore.8153:

From my time on these forums I’ve determined that casual means the following:
- Completely flat map with uninteresting terrain that is easy to cross
- Speed across entire map in an instant, preferably by teleporting (somehow, having this ability is necessary alongside also having a flat map)
- Spend a few seconds only killing a mob by only pressing one button
- Overcome all challenges even in extremely inefficient gear and builds, without having to think about complexity
- Do not require other players for any event, not even group events
- No aggro from mobs, no skills from mobs, no danger from mobs
- No CC, no conditions, nothing that requires any kind of counter-play or quick thinking
- Everything as quick as possible, everyone is busy busy these days, can’t stop to actually play a game
- Always rewards, even for doing nothing at all
- Define fun as the embodiment of getting things for nothing, instead of immersion, challenge or time investment

More that I forget, but we all know what they are by now.

All 10 of your points are demonstrably false. Try again.

Daddicus.6128:

Hannelore.8153:

From my time on these forums I’ve determined that casual means the following:
- Completely flat map with uninteresting terrain that is easy to cross
- Speed across entire map in an instant, preferably by teleporting (somehow, having this ability is necessary alongside also having a flat map)
- Spend a few seconds only killing a mob by only pressing one button
- Overcome all challenges even in extremely inefficient gear and builds, without having to think about complexity
- Do not require other players for any event, not even group events
- No aggro from mobs, no skills from mobs, no danger from mobs
- No CC, no conditions, nothing that requires any kind of counter-play or quick thinking
- Everything as quick as possible, everyone is busy busy these days, can’t stop to actually play a game
- Always rewards, even for doing nothing at all
- Define fun as the embodiment of getting things for nothing, instead of immersion, challenge or time investment

More that I forget, but we all know what they are by now.

All 10 of your points are demonstrably false. Try again.

Except they are not. You need not look further than this thread. Try again. Actually, that would imply you already did. Just try, once.

Lokki.1092:

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

STIHL.2489:

Djinn.9245:

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Well I spent a little time back in VB , and I have noticed there are a lot less mobs floating around, and they seem much easier then I remember.

They did not change mob spawns in VB it’s same as it was at launch. As for difficulty, the only thing I remember changing was the itzel shadowleaper ability to evade ranged attacks, it know evades projectiles not all ranged attacks if I’m not mistaken. If anything, at launch it was easier due to the number of players around.

Of course if you were trying to move through while the dozens of players were fighting in events, it was more than likely you had to fight event-scaled mobs and maybe those caused you all that trouble. Spawning scaling mobs is the normal thing to do even on core tyria maps, try moving through the area around Tequatl when the event is active and you will notice mobs that 1-shot you, or moving between the Penit-Shelter waypoints in Cursed Shore while either event is ongoing. That’s not HoT-specific

Humm, well it felt like such a slog the first few months I tried to play, to the point that exploring was not so much about exploring and seeing the zone and looking at what was about, it was all nothing but these endless stupid hard fights… all the time.

Also I did a flamethrower engineer for the stability boon in HoT, because all that stuff has those stupid knock backs.

Understand that what you are responding to is an opinion presented as fact. There is no hard data on exactly what was changed. It is my opinion that people who liked HoT quickly became acclimated to the mobs / maps and so didn’t find them as difficult as I and many other casual players did in the first place.

Well I just got back over a long absence, and have no idea how most of m skills work.. as such my play-style at time looks like this.. .

And somewhere in there it’s the games fault, never the player.

Wait, so what you are saying is that it is the players fault for any game they don’t like?
or put another way, you are saying that it’s your fault for no liking games like Archeage and Blackgold?

Well, I an’t say I will agree with you, but if blaming yourself for every game you don’t like works for you.. keep at it.

Seems like the implication is that you seem to be admitting you have no idea how to play your class, or this game.

That doesn’t mean the game is hard, it just means you have no idea how to play (by your own admission).

Coming to the conclusion that the game is too hard and therefore a bad game, seems shortsighted and placing the blame on someone else rather than yourself.

I’m not responding to Rhanoa’s rude post because I hope it will soon be removed. However, both of you seem to have failed to read STIHL’s words about not liking HoT and not playing at all from HoT intro until recently. STIHL’s skills now have nothing to do with his original comment about HoT. R.I.F.

Deadric.1427:

I hated HoT until I actually sat down and gave it a serious chance. The maps kind grow on you really. I still hate the lack of solo content in them though as I am just not a group player. Probably why I still enjoy the heck out of the original. Love my heros!

The maps may grow on YOU, but I have played HoT plenty (just finishing up Chuka & Chamapwat) and I still dislike it more than any other content in the game.

"i haven’t played for a year, so i’m super rusty and right now i look like a monkey humping a football" =/= "i have absolutely no idea how to play this game."

all the assumptions you all are making are hilarious. keep it up. this thread is good for a laugh

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

forecast that’d we’d make a certain profit, but something would happen and we made less. But the business wasn’t failing. The prediction didn’t take into account certain realities we’d be unaware of.

Based off the OPs statements throughout this thread, I really hope he is not a hiring manager.

I’d be offended, but, I read what you think retaining clients means, and the fact that Vayne does not seem to grasp the very profound difference between RoI and just making a sales goal… I simply can’t be.

In order for HoT to be a failure, you’d have to prove a couple of things. First, that more people left because of HOT, or stopped playing because of it than people who came back or started ;playing. That’s almost impossible to prove either way.

You can say a certain percentage of people didn’t like HoT. It’s true.

As for ROI, unless you work for Anet’s account department or management, you have no way to know the ROI on HoT. You’d be guessing at best.

The nice flat casual friendly maps of PoE.. tell me all I need to know.

You saw a small section of one map and you judge the expansion by that. How about the very very large not flat vertical maps like Draconis Mons and Siren’s Landing, both of which took about six months to make if interviews are anything to go by.

Anet could have made flatter maps if maps being flat was an issue. They also said there would be 3d areas in the desert, so I’m thinking this is wishful thinking on your part.

You’re so convinced something is try you’re willing to use evidence to believe it while ignoring all the other evidence.

Mo did say that it takes about 6 months to build a new zone from scratch. HoT is going to 2 years old, which means it was a year old when the last two zones were designed and I would guess a flatter map would be faster to design.

So yeah, I’ll go with wishful thinking here.

Djinn.9245:

Lokki.1092:

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

STIHL.2489:

Djinn.9245:

STIHL.2489:

maddoctor.2738:

STIHL.2489:

Well I spent a little time back in VB , and I have noticed there are a lot less mobs floating around, and they seem much easier then I remember.

They did not change mob spawns in VB it’s same as it was at launch. As for difficulty, the only thing I remember changing was the itzel shadowleaper ability to evade ranged attacks, it know evades projectiles not all ranged attacks if I’m not mistaken. If anything, at launch it was easier due to the number of players around.

Of course if you were trying to move through while the dozens of players were fighting in events, it was more than likely you had to fight event-scaled mobs and maybe those caused you all that trouble. Spawning scaling mobs is the normal thing to do even on core tyria maps, try moving through the area around Tequatl when the event is active and you will notice mobs that 1-shot you, or moving between the Penit-Shelter waypoints in Cursed Shore while either event is ongoing. That’s not HoT-specific

Humm, well it felt like such a slog the first few months I tried to play, to the point that exploring was not so much about exploring and seeing the zone and looking at what was about, it was all nothing but these endless stupid hard fights… all the time.

Also I did a flamethrower engineer for the stability boon in HoT, because all that stuff has those stupid knock backs.

Understand that what you are responding to is an opinion presented as fact. There is no hard data on exactly what was changed. It is my opinion that people who liked HoT quickly became acclimated to the mobs / maps and so didn’t find them as difficult as I and many other casual players did in the first place.

Well I just got back over a long absence, and have no idea how most of m skills work.. as such my play-style at time looks like this.. .

And somewhere in there it’s the games fault, never the player.

Wait, so what you are saying is that it is the players fault for any game they don’t like?
or put another way, you are saying that it’s your fault for no liking games like Archeage and Blackgold?

Well, I an’t say I will agree with you, but if blaming yourself for every game you don’t like works for you.. keep at it.

Seems like the implication is that you seem to be admitting you have no idea how to play your class, or this game.

That doesn’t mean the game is hard, it just means you have no idea how to play (by your own admission).

Coming to the conclusion that the game is too hard and therefore a bad game, seems shortsighted and placing the blame on someone else rather than yourself.

I’m not responding to Rhanoa’s rude post because I hope it will soon be removed. However, both of you seem to have failed to read STIHL’s words about not playing HoT and not playing at all from HoT intro until recently. STIHL’s skills now have nothing to do with his original comment about HoT. R.I.F.

You are always on the ball. I have got to give you that. Yah, I thought I made it clear that I was returning after a years absence.

But you know, some people just always looking for something to jump on.

Lokki.1092:

Uhh… Casual doesn’t mean bad at the game.
Do you think casual means being bad at a game?

Casual means casual… relaxed and unconcerned, not regular or permanent, or a person who does something irregularly.

That isn’t the same as being bad at the game.

You can be casual, playing when you want, for short amounts of time, and never investing too much into the game, while also understanding how to play your character well. Just because I casually play Super Mario 3 one weekend doesn’t mean I’m bad at playing the game. It just means I played the game with no real goal, and likely didn’t beat it.

I’v already covered this, and said it better.

STIHL.2489:

“Casual” is a mindset, or more aptly put, an approach on how someone plays the game. In simple terms, “casual” defines their motive and drive, as opposed to being serious about the game, or hardcore. Truth is, being “Casual” is irrespective of skill or time played. As how many hours someone invests into a game or how skilled they are at playing a game, have no bearing the mindset they have or how they approach the game.

In short, a “Casual” is not looking for a something serious that they have to work at or treat like a job, they are looking to escape into a fantasy world as someone might take a casual stroll in the woods to escape the daily grind of life.

But feel free to bring your arguments to this person, who actually disagrees with you.

IndigoSundown.5419:

there is a specific definition of the word casual as it is used in video games which states that either skill, time commitment or both are defining factors.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/casual

Words evolve. We either adapt and use them as they are being used in specific contexts or we don’t. Stick with your definition if you like, but you will continue to be misunderstood by some posters and some of the information you get will be unhelpful as a result.

figured you missed at these exchanges, it would do you good to read the whole topic at leas before making all kinds of assumptions.

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Rhanoa.3960:

Vayne.8563:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Daddicus.6128:

Rhanoa.3960:

Has the game really failed? Far from it.

Nobody said it did; well, nobody other than you.

We said Heart of Thorns failed. Which it did.

It did not, not by any reasonable measure. It didn’t do as well as predicted, which is very different.

You realize that not meeting predictions, is Failure.. right?

forecast that’d we’d make a certain profit, but something would happen and we made less. But the business wasn’t failing. The prediction didn’t take into account certain realities we’d be unaware of.

Based off the OPs statements throughout this thread, I really hope he is not a hiring manager.

I’d be offended, but, I read what you think retaining clients means, and the fact that Vayne does not seem to grasp the very profound difference between RoI and just making a sales goal… I simply can’t be.

In order for HoT to be a failure, you’d have to prove a couple of things. First, that more people left because of HOT, or stopped playing because of it than people who came back or started ;playing. That’s almost impossible to prove either way.

You can say a certain percentage of people didn’t like HoT. It’s true.

As for ROI, unless you work for Anet’s account department or management, you have no way to know the ROI on HoT. You’d be guessing at best.

The nice flat casual friendly maps of PoE.. tell me all I need to know.

You saw a small section of one map and you judge the expansion by that. How about the very very large not flat vertical maps like Draconis Mons and Siren’s Landing, both of which took about six months to make if interviews are anything to go by.

Anet could have made flatter maps if maps being flat was an issue. They also said there would be 3d areas in the desert, so I’m thinking this is wishful thinking on your part.

You’re so convinced something is try you’re willing to use evidence to believe it while ignoring all the other evidence.

Mo did say that it takes about 6 months to build a new zone from scratch. HoT is going to 2 years old, which means it was a year old when the last two zones were designed and I would guess a flatter map would be faster to design.

So yeah, I’ll go with wishful thinking here.

So.. are you being wishful that there will be vertical maps to justify what you want to believe, or are you being wishful that the new maps being flatter and easier to transverse is just coincidence to justify what you want to believe?

In either case, that is why I am being very tentative with this new expansion.